1 00:00:00,918 --> 00:00:02,621 All right, Julian, welcome to the show. 2 00:00:02,621 --> 00:00:05,504 Good to have you here and kind of turn the tables on you. 3 00:00:05,504 --> 00:00:07,004 Yeah man, I appreciate you making the time. 4 00:00:07,004 --> 00:00:08,444 It's great to be here with you. 5 00:00:08,578 --> 00:00:12,399 Yeah, I had a lot of fun when we spoke on your podcast, Producer Head. 6 00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:16,371 And we spoke even before that just to kind of get to know each other. 7 00:00:16,371 --> 00:00:25,534 And it was nice to learn about you and learn about the show and kind of some of the behind the scenes stuff that we were talking just about a minute ago. 8 00:00:25,534 --> 00:00:27,775 And here we are on the other side. 9 00:00:27,775 --> 00:00:28,600 Welcome. 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:29,462 Yeah, man, thanks. 11 00:00:29,462 --> 00:00:30,235 It's nice to be here. 12 00:00:30,235 --> 00:00:31,428 Yeah, and it was so fun having you on. 13 00:00:31,428 --> 00:00:33,413 I'm sure we'll do it again before too long. 14 00:00:33,454 --> 00:00:35,254 Yeah, I mean, it's almost a year ago now. 15 00:00:35,254 --> 00:00:39,254 That was, uh, I have your show up here and I think it was September. 16 00:00:39,254 --> 00:00:43,474 It wound up going out of 2024, right? 17 00:00:43,474 --> 00:00:43,794 Yep. 18 00:00:43,794 --> 00:00:46,394 September, 2024, number 15. 19 00:00:46,394 --> 00:00:48,094 And you've been cranking away, man. 20 00:00:48,094 --> 00:00:51,616 Um, I just saw you just put out, I think like number 33, right? 21 00:00:51,616 --> 00:00:52,876 Yeah, we did, man. 22 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:54,416 And yeah, I mean, I appreciate you saying that, man. 23 00:00:54,416 --> 00:00:57,556 And I'm really I know it's really kind of corny to say, but the time really does. 24 00:00:57,556 --> 00:01:01,576 I did not realize it had been that long since we had put that together and put it out. 25 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:04,216 So, yeah, it really is. 26 00:01:04,216 --> 00:01:05,856 It's kind of weird how that happens. 27 00:01:05,856 --> 00:01:07,376 But yeah, I appreciate that. 28 00:01:07,376 --> 00:01:11,256 And, know, your show has honestly been a huge like just like model for me. 29 00:01:11,256 --> 00:01:13,316 Like you've been at this for years. 30 00:01:13,316 --> 00:01:16,796 And I think I hope everybody listening like realizes just like. 31 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:18,951 I don't even know, man. 32 00:01:18,951 --> 00:01:27,550 I the quality is such a subjective thing, but the fact that you've really just consistently put out episodes every month for years is something people should just, that 33 00:01:27,550 --> 00:01:29,903 alone is really an achievement. 34 00:01:29,903 --> 00:01:32,415 So I appreciate it, you know? 35 00:01:32,558 --> 00:01:33,579 Thanks, man. 36 00:01:33,579 --> 00:01:34,509 I love doing it. 37 00:01:34,509 --> 00:01:37,181 I'm sure that's what's motivating you too. 38 00:01:37,181 --> 00:01:40,122 It's so great to get to talk to people talking to you right now. 39 00:01:40,583 --> 00:01:45,765 And yeah, to be consistent is really just the name of the game. 40 00:01:45,765 --> 00:01:46,476 So much of this. 41 00:01:46,476 --> 00:01:50,088 I know that's something you preach to a lot about showing up. 42 00:01:50,088 --> 00:01:56,972 Like sometimes even when maybe you don't want to, or maybe you're tired, or maybe you feel like I don't have any ideas. 43 00:01:56,972 --> 00:01:58,192 I don't know what to do. 44 00:01:58,192 --> 00:02:00,773 But when I started doing the podcast, 45 00:02:01,686 --> 00:02:04,627 I mean, for a long time, I did every week an episode. 46 00:02:04,648 --> 00:02:07,829 And I guess it was about a year ago. 47 00:02:07,829 --> 00:02:10,701 went to every other week just to let it breathe a little. 48 00:02:10,701 --> 00:02:19,895 I felt kind of bad too, because I'd have like all these awesome conversations with people and have no time to really promote it or make clips of it. 49 00:02:19,895 --> 00:02:21,816 It'd be like, onto the next one, onto the next one. 50 00:02:21,816 --> 00:02:25,898 And it'd be like, man, but these like really great things are just flowing by. 51 00:02:26,859 --> 00:02:33,449 It might be a lot for people to try to take in like an hour or two of conversation every single week. 52 00:02:33,449 --> 00:02:36,724 I mean, I can't keep up with podcasts that are like that that I love. 53 00:02:36,970 --> 00:02:46,346 Yeah, I mean, there's so much wrapped in this for me, man, because it's like, I it's really cool that you found a cadence in a week, every other week, it sounds like right 54 00:02:46,346 --> 00:02:47,166 now. 55 00:02:47,166 --> 00:02:55,271 And I've like, think as you're aware, like I've been doing something similar and that really just came from a place of like, it is like a philosophy that we share in terms of 56 00:02:55,271 --> 00:03:03,436 consistency and just really not trying to avoid burnout, like because I didn't want the, and I still don't want the podcast to become my life. 57 00:03:03,454 --> 00:03:09,187 I want to make sure that I'm a musician who has a podcast and not a podcaster who's like a hobby musician. 58 00:03:09,187 --> 00:03:09,747 You know what I mean? 59 00:03:09,747 --> 00:03:11,168 And that's really important to me. 60 00:03:11,168 --> 00:03:15,650 So I think starting out in a place that was like, okay, I know the way that I am. 61 00:03:15,650 --> 00:03:21,472 And like, there's a lot of pressure on like productivity and releasing things at a rapid pace, et cetera, et cetera. 62 00:03:21,472 --> 00:03:23,894 But the reality is, is I'm really fortunate. 63 00:03:23,894 --> 00:03:28,756 You know, my friend, you know, shouts to Matt Diaz, who's helping me produce a lot of the episodes now. 64 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:33,411 But when I first started it for the first year or so, I was completely doing it on my own. 65 00:03:33,411 --> 00:03:42,182 So you're and there's so much that goes into it a long video as you know to edit it down and stuff and so I was just like I don't want to burn out. 66 00:03:42,182 --> 00:03:47,491 I just want to make sure this thing keeps going and I think I don't know. 67 00:03:47,491 --> 00:03:51,072 I also think that the weird the productivity trap is just 68 00:03:51,721 --> 00:04:00,637 it makes us so output focused and then we start to treat ourselves almost like factories, We're we're like, treat creative work like they're widgets, you know, like we're building 69 00:04:00,637 --> 00:04:07,501 cars or something where like the model and the map and the blueprint is there and we're now just gonna, all right, we're just gonna hit this over and over again. 70 00:04:07,501 --> 00:04:14,936 And music and even podcasting, if you really, in my opinion, if you really want every conversation to be unique. 71 00:04:15,070 --> 00:04:24,236 to that person, you need to take time to help that become a reality by spending time in preparation and appreciating who that person is ahead of time. 72 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:39,707 So I do think that there's a really, there are things that you can do to make your process run more smoothly, but I think orientating a creative process with the guiding principle 73 00:04:39,707 --> 00:04:44,379 of efficiency is a dangerous proposition in my opinion. 74 00:04:46,294 --> 00:04:58,341 Yeah, and sometimes you have to if you want to keep up with some sort of grinding out of stuff and what you said about being a podcaster who was a musician, you want to be a 75 00:04:58,341 --> 00:05:00,792 musician that's a podcaster, I can relate to that a lot. 76 00:05:00,792 --> 00:05:08,286 Because there are times when, and especially when I was doing it every week, I felt more like someone that talks about making music. 77 00:05:08,847 --> 00:05:15,090 You know, and like, it's not like my inner doubt and self-critic needs more fuel. 78 00:05:15,222 --> 00:05:21,525 And then I would start thinking about that like, man, I haven't put anything out or just keep talking about it. 79 00:05:21,886 --> 00:05:30,291 So the only way to sustain that was to kind of almost like factory it up, you know, where I'm going to do the same thing every time. 80 00:05:30,291 --> 00:05:36,815 And like you, I've got uh excellent help, Animus NVIDIUS, shout out. 81 00:05:36,815 --> 00:05:41,777 He'll be editing this one and he does work as perform module. 82 00:05:41,777 --> 00:05:43,018 Does great work. 83 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,751 makes this much more possible. 84 00:05:45,751 --> 00:05:57,636 um And it allows me a little time to like think about it too, because if you're just churning it out, you don't even have time to like evaluate what you've done and reflect on 85 00:05:57,636 --> 00:05:57,716 it. 86 00:05:57,716 --> 00:05:59,637 You're just next one, next one, next one. 87 00:05:59,637 --> 00:06:03,338 So having a little space sometimes is nice. 88 00:06:03,498 --> 00:06:10,161 I do like to um kind of like factory things a little bit sometimes. 89 00:06:10,221 --> 00:06:12,728 I'm recording some songs with my band right now. 90 00:06:12,728 --> 00:06:22,341 just four songs like for an EP and for that there's like kind of like a template we're following and that's been cool to help move that along but once we get these four done I 91 00:06:22,341 --> 00:06:34,314 want to like throw that template away and okay let's let's try a new way of doing things or or modify it at least a little bit reflect on it just to keep things fresh like you 92 00:06:34,314 --> 00:06:40,654 might have mentioned burnout maybe before we spoke or maybe just now I forget but it's real like when you're 93 00:06:40,654 --> 00:06:44,037 pushing yourself and you're trying to be creative and dig deep all the time. 94 00:06:44,058 --> 00:06:46,261 Like, you can burn out on it. 95 00:06:46,261 --> 00:06:47,682 You run out of steam. 96 00:06:47,902 --> 00:06:50,143 And yeah, man, and I agree to your point. 97 00:06:50,143 --> 00:06:58,397 think a hundred percent, like I do think that certain parts of what you do benefit from being more thoughtless in a sense, right? 98 00:06:58,397 --> 00:07:02,729 That you kind of create like kind of automatic things over time. 99 00:07:02,729 --> 00:07:06,560 Those things are just going to naturally change because what you're going to want to do is going to change. 100 00:07:06,621 --> 00:07:09,262 kind of think about everything in terms of just energy, right? 101 00:07:09,262 --> 00:07:12,804 Like you wake up and you have a certain amount of energy that day. 102 00:07:12,804 --> 00:07:14,384 How are you going to spend it? 103 00:07:14,384 --> 00:07:15,225 You know what I mean? 104 00:07:15,225 --> 00:07:17,826 And, and if you can kind of, I 105 00:07:17,826 --> 00:07:27,258 think before you build a process, you kind of do have to observe yourself as honestly as possible and watch how things go and notice that. 106 00:07:27,258 --> 00:07:30,641 And it's a tough thing to do, but that also takes time. 107 00:07:31,183 --> 00:07:35,147 And that can seem at odds with productivity. 108 00:07:35,445 --> 00:07:37,336 But I don't think that it necessarily is. 109 00:07:37,336 --> 00:07:47,030 think it has to do more with like a short term versus a more kind of long term infinite kind of end view about things that like, if I really am somebody who just wants to be 110 00:07:47,030 --> 00:07:50,711 making music, there's really no end to this, you know? 111 00:07:50,832 --> 00:07:57,935 And so with that in mind, I think it's really important to just be like, yeah, like I'm not trying to win a race. 112 00:07:57,935 --> 00:07:59,225 There's no end to this. 113 00:07:59,225 --> 00:08:04,978 There's never going to be a day where I'm like, oh, I've got production and guitar figured out. 114 00:08:04,978 --> 00:08:05,458 That's never 115 00:08:05,458 --> 00:08:06,679 going to happen. 116 00:08:06,679 --> 00:08:10,211 If you feel that way, you've become just uninterested, right? 117 00:08:10,211 --> 00:08:11,822 It's not that you've actually figured it out. 118 00:08:11,822 --> 00:08:18,746 And I think when you, in my opinion, it's just like, if you kind of like take that truth of like, there is no end to this thing. 119 00:08:18,746 --> 00:08:21,808 When I finish this one, I'm just going to do another one. 120 00:08:21,808 --> 00:08:27,732 Then it becomes more interesting to think about how you build like your machine if you want to think about it that way, you know? 121 00:08:28,951 --> 00:08:32,513 Yeah, I like this concept of building a body of work. 122 00:08:33,033 --> 00:08:33,984 That's just what it is. 123 00:08:33,984 --> 00:08:37,756 It's just building a body of work, putting stuff together. 124 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:40,898 And over time, you just have a lot of stuff. 125 00:08:40,898 --> 00:08:45,501 And it's not so much like I'm trying to get to this or that. 126 00:08:45,501 --> 00:08:55,756 I'm just making, making, yeah, just, I don't know, moving forward as much as you can and... 127 00:08:55,906 --> 00:09:01,330 Like what you said about like being honest with yourself about like your time and your energy is pretty true. 128 00:09:01,911 --> 00:09:09,357 Because sometimes when you plan things out a little too much, you might think like, that's when you come up with these crazy ideas, like I'm going to go to the gym for two hours 129 00:09:09,357 --> 00:09:10,518 every day. 130 00:09:10,938 --> 00:09:14,001 And that's so hard to do that. 131 00:09:14,001 --> 00:09:16,683 That's like, you're dedicating your life to that really. 132 00:09:17,784 --> 00:09:24,630 when, if you went for 15 minutes, that would be such a substantial increase from where you are. 133 00:09:24,630 --> 00:09:25,440 So. 134 00:09:25,868 --> 00:09:35,610 I gotta make like an album in the next two months might be a little too much, but if you just, I'm just gonna spend a certain amount of time and create and create, create. 135 00:09:35,610 --> 00:09:38,974 That all adds up, it's little drops in the bucket. 136 00:09:39,009 --> 00:09:41,049 Yeah, 100%. 137 00:09:41,791 --> 00:09:43,052 actually kind of inspired by you too. 138 00:09:43,052 --> 00:09:51,635 It's like I started, like how you're doing these little episodes where you're just kind of speaking a little bit of your philosophy, you know, by yourself into the audience. 139 00:09:51,635 --> 00:09:57,408 And I really think that's, I know, cause we both share also like kind of a love for like reading those kinds of things too. 140 00:09:57,408 --> 00:10:04,651 I know we've talked about and honestly, I don't know if I've thanked you, man, but I've read at least two books that you recommended to me since we talked last year, I read the 141 00:10:04,651 --> 00:10:08,773 Andrew Wong book and I read one of the Matthew Dick books, the story worthy book. 142 00:10:08,773 --> 00:10:11,714 Both of those I've recommended to several people and I would say to everybody, 143 00:10:11,714 --> 00:10:16,194 like both of those are very much worth reading if you're into this at all. 144 00:10:16,634 --> 00:10:21,874 And yeah, if you're listening to this, like I would almost consider it required reading, you know, to an extent. 145 00:10:23,234 --> 00:10:23,620 And... 146 00:10:23,620 --> 00:10:32,844 Sorry, I didn't mean sidetracked but yeah, I do think there's like because of like seeing that it made me be like Oh I you take in all this stuff in the same way that you listen to 147 00:10:32,844 --> 00:10:42,439 music and you want to make songs taking in all of those words from other people makes me just like I want to somehow reorganize this in a way to realize because a lot of it has 148 00:10:42,439 --> 00:10:51,153 helped me but the way that it's helped me is maybe not even the way that those people intend, know and so what I've tried to do through writing is like and Sharing it in the 149 00:10:51,153 --> 00:10:53,344 same way that you are is kind of doing these 150 00:10:53,344 --> 00:11:04,512 short episodes where I'm like trying to distill the thing that it is, you know, and I think you probably know even better than me, writing is words is so hard compared to music 151 00:11:04,512 --> 00:11:05,003 to me. 152 00:11:05,003 --> 00:11:13,068 Like you really, when you start to do that, you really understand like how hard it is to be clear or communicate a very specific idea to people. 153 00:11:13,409 --> 00:11:17,031 And so I guess I'm saying all that to say that like, 154 00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:21,083 I came across this idea of frequency, the idea of drops in the bucket, right? 155 00:11:21,083 --> 00:11:22,859 So it's like, I think it is... 156 00:11:22,859 --> 00:11:24,504 m 157 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:34,595 especially in music or creativity, it's like an infinite pool, you know, and like the the common kind of thing that happens in music a lot or in the producer community, I guess I 158 00:11:34,595 --> 00:11:36,526 would say is it's like music theory. 159 00:11:36,526 --> 00:11:44,679 A lot of people start making beats and they don't or they start playing an instrument and they don't really have a grasp on music theory or they don't if they don't come at it 160 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,521 through like an invention, a conventional academic way. 161 00:11:47,521 --> 00:11:48,911 And I was one of those people. 162 00:11:48,911 --> 00:11:54,587 And so I started to kind of chip away intentionally at finding like things that I could learn to improve my understanding. 163 00:11:54,587 --> 00:12:03,013 And so I realized that there are a lot of people that almost are like, music theory removes the romance, in a sense, for music, you know what I mean? 164 00:12:03,013 --> 00:12:06,055 Like, there's no magic if it's like theory. 165 00:12:06,336 --> 00:12:07,746 And I think that's interesting. 166 00:12:07,746 --> 00:12:12,940 And there's a lot of people that like, want to learn it, but don't know where to start, because it is so vast. 167 00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:16,702 It's like trying to learn a language or like trying to learn math or something. 168 00:12:16,763 --> 00:12:17,983 So I would say... 169 00:12:19,102 --> 00:12:21,773 You pick the most specific thing that you can. 170 00:12:21,773 --> 00:12:28,745 You know, you be really, really specific and then you make everything based on like time and not about like how far you get. 171 00:12:28,745 --> 00:12:34,237 You don't say like, okay, I'm going to sit down to work on this and I'll stop when I'm done. 172 00:12:34,237 --> 00:12:41,319 That's, that's a recipe for never, for never like doing anything more than like one time, you know, when you're trying to learn something new. 173 00:12:41,852 --> 00:12:42,992 So. 174 00:12:43,828 --> 00:12:46,179 Jerry Seinfeld has the example when he's talking about writing. 175 00:12:46,179 --> 00:12:54,533 I think he's like a really cool uh person to think about and steal from when it comes to creative process and consistency. 176 00:12:54,533 --> 00:13:03,697 And he talks a lot about like, if you're starting something new, like writing, for instance, just literally five minutes is your timer that day, the first day that you sit 177 00:13:03,697 --> 00:13:04,598 down. 178 00:13:04,598 --> 00:13:10,360 And when you do that, like, even if you don't write anything, that's okay, but you can't do anything else. 179 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,762 You have to commit to sitting there for five minutes with your pen and your pad. 180 00:13:13,762 --> 00:13:22,722 And for those five minutes, you're going to try to write and whatever happens at the end of the five minutes is what happens And then you come back and you do it tomorrow I think 181 00:13:22,722 --> 00:13:30,982 a cool bonus thing about that that he says is whatever you write that day like because it feels so good You know when you come up with that musical sketch or you write something 182 00:13:30,982 --> 00:13:40,322 you have something down He's like don't share it with anybody You know you just close it and walk away and walk away with the satisfaction of knowing that you kind of have this 183 00:13:40,322 --> 00:13:44,182 secret that you did this And you come back tomorrow, you 184 00:13:44,195 --> 00:13:50,677 And so I think if it sounds, I always say if it sounds too small or it sounds too easy, well good. 185 00:13:50,677 --> 00:13:59,659 Because if you haven't done it yet, you really don't know what your threshold is for tolerance of pain when it comes to this kind of work. 186 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:01,500 And you have to commit. 187 00:14:01,662 --> 00:14:02,383 to just doing it. 188 00:14:02,383 --> 00:14:08,343 So I would say start with an amount of time that seems silly, like really easy. 189 00:14:08,343 --> 00:14:11,267 So if five minutes even sounds too big, then make it three. 190 00:14:11,267 --> 00:14:14,331 Keep going until it's small enough to start. 191 00:14:17,250 --> 00:14:22,853 Yeah, because five minutes compared to nothing is a substantial change. 192 00:14:23,113 --> 00:14:35,850 And you don't really need to make these grand, if you try to do these like grand heroic efforts in the beginning, you might do it maybe even a couple of days in a row, but it's 193 00:14:35,850 --> 00:14:36,901 really hard to sustain. 194 00:14:36,901 --> 00:14:45,625 But if you just start building the habit first, I'm going to do it a little bit every day, then you can increase the amount of time and the amount of energy you put into it. 195 00:14:45,625 --> 00:14:47,526 That's a lot easier than 196 00:14:47,608 --> 00:14:52,581 going from zero to a hundred out of nowhere. 197 00:14:52,581 --> 00:14:57,486 I think athletes are a great example and I think your reference to exercise is a great example. 198 00:14:57,486 --> 00:15:08,495 If you've never lifted weights before and you try to walk into the gym and bench your weight, you're gonna hurt yourself and you're not gonna go back for a long time. 199 00:15:08,495 --> 00:15:14,919 And the same thing is likely to happen with your creative work if you try to go in too heavy right away. 200 00:15:16,172 --> 00:15:24,532 Yeah, and if you're starting at zero at that, like a walk around the block is a huge upgrade from where you were. 201 00:15:24,693 --> 00:15:25,113 Yeah. 202 00:15:25,113 --> 00:15:33,978 And that's, it sort of speaks to like, I feel like what's inside of what you're saying to a little bit is just a little bit of honesty about where you really are in comparing 203 00:15:33,978 --> 00:15:39,101 yourself and understanding your own progress and not like where you are in relation to other people. 204 00:15:39,442 --> 00:15:44,024 And that is, you know, things that, you know, like, 205 00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:54,484 I'm a big fan of Neil Brennan and he always says, you know, people always say comparison is the thief of joy Well, not if you compare down, you know, and so if you Stop comparing 206 00:15:54,484 --> 00:16:02,447 yourselves to people that are not really adequate comparisons or work That is not an adequate comparison to your work because even that distinction instead of you're comparing 207 00:16:02,447 --> 00:16:12,812 yourself to the person You know if you're making music compare your music to the music of other people not to those people and What their lives seem to be like to your life and 208 00:16:12,812 --> 00:16:13,922 that's like a very subtle 209 00:16:13,922 --> 00:16:23,228 little bit important distinction, you know, and something that I used to do, especially starting out was when I was making music and I was like, my God, this is so bad. 210 00:16:23,228 --> 00:16:27,651 You know, I was like, I couldn't, was like, man, I was like, nobody can ever hear this. 211 00:16:27,651 --> 00:16:35,376 So one of the most helpful things that I did is I would go to an artist that I was listening to, and then I would go find their earliest music that I could find. 212 00:16:35,376 --> 00:16:42,021 I was like, what's the first stuff they did, you know, and that's the stuff that I used to listen to all the time when I got started. 213 00:16:42,021 --> 00:16:43,842 Then that was just what I was listening to is everybody 214 00:16:43,842 --> 00:16:54,942 earliest work and that helped calm me down a little bit so I couldn't recommend enough to kind of like I guess it's the idea of right sizing your comparison to be more critical and 215 00:16:54,942 --> 00:17:05,942 not to like kind of broadly expose yourself to like the Billboard top 100 or like Rolling Stones greatest albums of all time you know 216 00:17:06,895 --> 00:17:11,917 Yeah, or even hear like the demos of the music you love and hear how it sounded. 217 00:17:11,917 --> 00:17:21,521 I love like those Beatles anthologies when they're just really like these barely fleshed out ideas or that documentary they put out. 218 00:17:22,002 --> 00:17:23,362 Was it called Get Back? 219 00:17:23,362 --> 00:17:25,623 It was called Get Back, yeah. 220 00:17:25,623 --> 00:17:31,685 About the Let It Be sessions and it's like nine hours of them like trying to figure it out and... 221 00:17:32,972 --> 00:17:33,342 it's great. 222 00:17:33,342 --> 00:17:35,444 It's on, I think Disney plus. 223 00:17:35,444 --> 00:17:39,027 It's like a couple parts, but you see him struggle. 224 00:17:39,027 --> 00:17:49,316 And it's funny too, because you'll hear say like Paul McCartney trying to write get back for instance, there's one example. 225 00:17:49,316 --> 00:17:55,341 And it's not really sounding like much, but you know what it's going to become, but he has no idea. 226 00:17:55,341 --> 00:17:57,070 And he's looking for it he's like, 227 00:17:57,070 --> 00:17:59,150 going through the fog and trying to find it. 228 00:17:59,150 --> 00:18:01,790 And every once in a while he hits a note and you're like, oh yeah, you're getting there. 229 00:18:01,790 --> 00:18:02,830 Like warmer, warmer. 230 00:18:02,830 --> 00:18:04,430 You kind of like rooting him on. 231 00:18:05,030 --> 00:18:14,230 But I mean, he's an incredible musician, obviously, but it is really cool to see him in that first few stages of like, I don't know where this is. 232 00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:16,670 And it's kind of the same way we all do it. 233 00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:23,550 We're fumbling in the dark until we kind of grasp something a little bit and then we keep nurturing it. 234 00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:26,982 But there's so much of a leap of faith and 235 00:18:27,262 --> 00:18:33,606 Um, to see some of the greatest ever in that stage too, where they don't know what it's going to be. 236 00:18:33,606 --> 00:18:36,369 And it might not even sound like much yet. 237 00:18:36,369 --> 00:18:43,594 It might sound like garbage throw away stuff, but then you start to hear it come out of it and you're like, wow. 238 00:18:43,594 --> 00:18:44,634 Like, look at that. 239 00:18:44,634 --> 00:18:53,381 This like amazing song that everyone knows and loves started with him just kind of like pounding on one note on the bass, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb mumbling. 240 00:18:53,381 --> 00:18:55,722 And now 241 00:18:56,748 --> 00:19:00,360 That's fun that empowering, you know, because, yeah, we all start there. 242 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:01,030 Exactly, man. 243 00:19:01,030 --> 00:19:08,624 And I think it again is just another good piece of evidence for like, that's why you cannot or you can try. 244 00:19:08,624 --> 00:19:14,227 But that's why I don't think it's a great idea to think about like efficiency being your guiding principle. 245 00:19:14,227 --> 00:19:15,427 You know what I mean? 246 00:19:15,527 --> 00:19:20,069 Because you're like, as you said, you're like kind of fumbling through the dark, you know? 247 00:19:20,069 --> 00:19:30,554 And so I think about creative process, not less in terms of the order in which you do things, but more like if you're fumbling through the dark, you know, how do you 248 00:19:31,648 --> 00:19:37,272 create a good set of flashlights and develop the experience to know where to point them over time. 249 00:19:38,153 --> 00:19:45,718 And that is what, that's the kind of thing is like I don't think that it can be learned outside of experience. 250 00:19:45,718 --> 00:19:49,301 Like I couldn't recommend enough again, like the reading that we talked about. 251 00:19:49,365 --> 00:19:55,429 However, until all of that learning that you do while you read is entirely hypothetical, right? 252 00:19:55,429 --> 00:20:06,706 Until you sit down and try to like really make something that's bad and like stare it in the face and listen to it, like that is like the best lessons you're gonna learn and that 253 00:20:06,706 --> 00:20:09,137 will recontextualize everything that you've read. 254 00:20:09,137 --> 00:20:13,019 Until then, it's all just kind of stuff floating in the air, you know? 255 00:20:13,112 --> 00:20:13,982 Yeah. 256 00:20:14,383 --> 00:20:14,633 Yeah. 257 00:20:14,633 --> 00:20:27,116 And all this stuff, like I talk about on the podcast and with friends and read, like I understand it intellectually, but that every time I go to do it, it's still hard. 258 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:29,777 And no one I know has ever said it was easy. 259 00:20:29,838 --> 00:20:32,891 And there's always this like, I'm lost. 260 00:20:32,891 --> 00:20:34,042 I don't know what to do. 261 00:20:34,042 --> 00:20:36,765 can't, all that doubt comes in. 262 00:20:36,765 --> 00:20:38,370 It's, just part of it. 263 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:39,792 You know, it doesn't go away. 264 00:20:39,792 --> 00:20:45,718 doesn't matter how well you understand it and how much you know, it's just your mind and you got to work through it. 265 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:47,380 It's still hard when you get there. 266 00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:49,062 um 267 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:58,994 Like that's the thing is like let it be is some of the last music they did together as the Beatles right and there as you're describing He's still fumbling through so all having 268 00:20:58,994 --> 00:21:09,604 Abbey Road behind you does not absolve you of the struggles of the creative process You know and so I try to Did it okay 269 00:21:09,604 --> 00:21:11,046 Let It Be After. 270 00:21:12,129 --> 00:21:13,604 Beatles nerd, look out. 271 00:21:13,604 --> 00:21:13,924 Okay. 272 00:21:13,924 --> 00:21:15,144 No, but yeah, because I wasn't sure. 273 00:21:15,144 --> 00:21:16,604 No, I appreciate you saying that. 274 00:21:16,604 --> 00:21:18,564 So but even if you take that out, no. 275 00:21:18,564 --> 00:21:19,684 And so pick another one. 276 00:21:19,684 --> 00:21:23,364 So if we go rubber sole, right, if we go back one more, right? 277 00:21:23,364 --> 00:21:24,984 Yeah, like none of that. 278 00:21:24,984 --> 00:21:31,064 Like, you know, you have all of the acclaim that you could and all of the experiment of really cool stuff they've done, right? 279 00:21:31,064 --> 00:21:32,604 Revolver and everything else. 280 00:21:32,884 --> 00:21:40,721 so it's I just think I don't know a way that I try to reframe it for myself that hopefully is helpful to somebody else is I 281 00:21:40,721 --> 00:21:49,494 When I hear those things, I just try to be like, oh, this is an indication that I'm on the path, you that I'm doing the thing. 282 00:21:49,574 --> 00:21:54,385 You know, it's like, if I'm on this road, these are the things that I see, you know, these are the buildings that are here. 283 00:21:54,385 --> 00:21:55,576 These are the voices that I hear. 284 00:21:55,576 --> 00:22:05,789 It's the same kind of thing instead of because then if you expect those things and know that they're going to come, they don't have as much power to like derail your, your motion 285 00:22:05,789 --> 00:22:07,700 or your attempts, you know. 286 00:22:09,691 --> 00:22:20,754 Yeah, when you were talking about like the episodes of the podcast when you're kind of writing about or talking about your philosophies and stuff and I'm thinking about the ones 287 00:22:20,754 --> 00:22:26,035 that I do like that, I don't always know what I'm going to say until I start saying it. 288 00:22:26,115 --> 00:22:27,816 I mean, I might have an idea. 289 00:22:27,816 --> 00:22:36,020 There's a little spark, a little, and it's almost the same thing as if like, I like these chords, you know, but I don't know. 290 00:22:36,020 --> 00:22:39,652 where I'm going really until I start talking about it. 291 00:22:39,652 --> 00:22:52,997 And maybe that's like kind of like the way talk therapy works too, where you have to just start trying to take these weird amorphous thoughts you have and then turn them into 292 00:22:52,997 --> 00:22:54,478 actual language. 293 00:22:54,478 --> 00:23:02,100 And in doing so it's like focusing the camera a little bit, but it doesn't happen by sitting on the couch thinking about it. 294 00:23:02,521 --> 00:23:05,162 You know, I have to put the pen to the paper and I have to, or 295 00:23:05,474 --> 00:23:15,997 whether it's talking, I have to start saying it or writing it until, and it's kind of the same thing, the fumbling through the dark, like each sentence is like kind of pushing away 296 00:23:15,997 --> 00:23:21,879 some of the fog and the mist in the air until I can kind of find what I'm getting at. 297 00:23:22,399 --> 00:23:33,292 But I do a lot of learning in those episodes because I'm trying to sort through what I think about it and try to solidify it and give myself even like a little. 298 00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:44,557 nice piffy sentence or two that I can write down somewhere and remember the next time I get stuck and say things like, um, create recklessly or decide recklessly. 299 00:23:44,557 --> 00:23:59,047 Like this one I like to do a lot where it's, it's not so much about what decision I make, just that I make a decision, choose and go, not make sure I get the right one before I go. 300 00:23:59,968 --> 00:24:03,270 You know, ready, fire aim. 301 00:24:03,270 --> 00:24:04,740 Yeah. 302 00:24:06,222 --> 00:24:07,473 So wow, that's interesting though, man. 303 00:24:07,473 --> 00:24:14,527 So you, for those pieces that you do, you just sit down and start recording and then you kind of edit them based on where you go. 304 00:24:15,134 --> 00:24:19,886 I think most of the time what I'm doing is I'll start writing something. 305 00:24:19,886 --> 00:24:22,036 I'll get the idea, you know, the idea. 306 00:24:22,036 --> 00:24:22,887 I get excited, right? 307 00:24:22,887 --> 00:24:26,078 And then I start writing down things. 308 00:24:26,518 --> 00:24:30,699 A lot of times I wind up with a lot of different bullet points. 309 00:24:30,999 --> 00:24:32,610 Yeah, a lot of it's talking. 310 00:24:32,610 --> 00:24:35,661 Sometimes I wind up actually writing them out too. 311 00:24:35,661 --> 00:24:38,942 It sort of depends just on... 312 00:24:39,438 --> 00:24:41,198 if I'm able to get the words out or not. 313 00:24:41,198 --> 00:24:44,118 Cause sometimes you sit down and talk and you're like, uh, yeah. 314 00:24:44,118 --> 00:24:49,338 So, you know, uh, like, um, it's kind of, and then it's like, okay, let's write it down. 315 00:24:49,338 --> 00:24:51,038 Let's try to get it down. 316 00:24:51,038 --> 00:24:59,538 But sometimes you, I don't know, maybe you just have like a nice cup of coffee or something and the words kind of come once in a while, you just get in those moods. 317 00:24:59,538 --> 00:25:06,518 So if that's the case and I can recognize that I might just go off the bullet points, but that has to be edited too. 318 00:25:06,538 --> 00:25:08,770 You know that and you can. 319 00:25:08,770 --> 00:25:12,992 tell my edits usually when the camera gets a little closer, a little further away. 320 00:25:13,690 --> 00:25:23,607 It's like the little trick I learned somewhere watching somebody about video editing that if you need to take a pause out there, just like move the camera up a little bit, then 321 00:25:23,607 --> 00:25:24,817 move back a little bit. 322 00:25:25,712 --> 00:25:28,590 little YouTube veteran trick there I like it yeah 323 00:25:29,228 --> 00:25:39,462 Yeah, that stuff though, so much like creativity is like, don't know where the idea is going until I get one part of it down first. 324 00:25:39,462 --> 00:25:47,105 I need to get that beat first and then add the guitar part to it or get whichever, you know, order I decide to do it in. 325 00:25:47,105 --> 00:25:52,727 But every single next thing is a reaction to the last thing I did. 326 00:25:53,968 --> 00:25:59,274 And a lot of it's just trusting, like I'll make a good decision. 327 00:25:59,274 --> 00:26:06,416 and move forward and this decide recklessly idea for me is hopefully my taste comes into play. 328 00:26:06,416 --> 00:26:12,738 And if I make a kind of lousy decision here, maybe the next decision will make up for it. 329 00:26:13,858 --> 00:26:17,559 But I'll get a lot more stuff finished and done. 330 00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:23,521 If I go that way, then if every single time I get to a choice, go, okay, now here are my options. 331 00:26:23,521 --> 00:26:25,161 What's the best one? 332 00:26:25,261 --> 00:26:26,221 Oh, I could do this. 333 00:26:26,221 --> 00:26:26,962 I could do that. 334 00:26:26,962 --> 00:26:28,582 And of course. 335 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:38,897 Every single option is infinite, nowadays especially, because I really can find every single sound in the computer and every, you know, that we're not limited by anything 336 00:26:38,897 --> 00:26:39,808 anymore. 337 00:26:39,946 --> 00:26:49,282 Yeah, and so I think that's a cool example of how you can kind of make your process more, you know, mechanical in certain ways, right? 338 00:26:49,282 --> 00:26:57,807 In terms of like making decisions ahead of time or giving yourself a time limit on certain instruments and wherever you have, you're just gonna move on to the next thing, you know? 339 00:26:57,807 --> 00:27:04,711 Because I do think just like, but the thing, the distinction is like making those kinds of choices. 340 00:27:05,888 --> 00:27:16,548 if you want to call them efficiency, okay, or productivity, okay, but they're actually more in service of your energy and your mood and your interest than they are in like the 341 00:27:16,548 --> 00:27:20,328 efficiency of creating products faster in a more streamlined way. 342 00:27:20,328 --> 00:27:23,768 And so again, it's like, I really do believe in those things. 343 00:27:23,768 --> 00:27:33,888 I think it's like where it can be, where you can get yourself into trouble is losing sight of what the guiding principle or the underlying philosophy of that is, you know, why 344 00:27:33,888 --> 00:27:35,608 you're setting it up that way. 345 00:27:36,878 --> 00:27:42,798 Yeah, so much of the thrill of making music is uncovering it and the next thing. 346 00:27:43,258 --> 00:27:49,478 so if it's like, oh, I made this part, I'm adding this and like, I'm going so fast that it's just like, wow, wow, wow. 347 00:27:49,478 --> 00:27:59,518 Every little thing that happens compared to the analytical stuff when you're like, okay, so, or the theory, you let that get too much in. 348 00:27:59,618 --> 00:28:06,078 start overthinking things, you start questioning decisions and wondering if I'm doing it the right way or not. 349 00:28:06,772 --> 00:28:19,378 Um, and even like technical stuff too, there's been times, especially when I first got any kind of recording gear, started getting like probably much more aware that if I position 350 00:28:19,378 --> 00:28:27,491 the microphone here compared to here, like a couple inches on my guitar, it changes the tone completely. 351 00:28:27,492 --> 00:28:33,334 If I move it at an angle on the amp, like it goes from like really bright to like much bassier. 352 00:28:33,602 --> 00:28:35,083 These, all these things are so subtle. 353 00:28:35,083 --> 00:28:42,065 So I got really like, okay, I've got to make sure I got it all mic'd up right and checking it and deciding if it's the right way. 354 00:28:42,065 --> 00:28:45,367 Meanwhile, I have nothing to compare it to yet. 355 00:28:45,367 --> 00:28:54,010 I don't know if I need a thin guitar or a thick guitar, but I'm worrying about all this stuff and not making a lot of progress. 356 00:28:54,010 --> 00:29:03,594 But I just kind of came to the decision that my gear, like moving from like four track cassette recorders to like. 357 00:29:03,854 --> 00:29:16,209 you know, more modern stuff, even before computers, but it was just going to sound so much better than my four track was that it didn't even matter if I made all the wrong choices 358 00:29:16,209 --> 00:29:21,081 in mic placement and EQing, it's still going to sound so much better. 359 00:29:21,161 --> 00:29:23,788 So I just decided to let that go. 360 00:29:23,788 --> 00:29:26,503 I was like, I'm just going to work, worry about recording the songs. 361 00:29:26,503 --> 00:29:28,124 I had so much more fun. 362 00:29:28,124 --> 00:29:33,486 And I learned so much more because now instead of trying to figure out 363 00:29:33,486 --> 00:29:42,346 how to get the guitar to sound a certain way, I was just recording it and then being like, oh, okay, so because I recorded it that way, it sounds like this. 364 00:29:42,346 --> 00:29:50,266 And then maybe a few songs down the road, I was like, oh, I want it to sound like that old one I did on that other song, so I'll put it in a similar place. 365 00:29:50,426 --> 00:30:01,826 Instead of maybe making like one song where I tried to get everything what I thought would be perfect, I made like 10 or 15, trying all different things and... 366 00:30:01,826 --> 00:30:04,565 got so much more out of it and had so much more fun. 367 00:30:07,464 --> 00:30:17,409 One of the big things is we do everything right in music in terms of like the kind of things that you and I both do and to a lot of people listening also, right? 368 00:30:17,409 --> 00:30:23,872 So it's like, I think it's important to keep in mind some people dedicate their lives to being like in studio recording engineers. 369 00:30:23,872 --> 00:30:31,115 Some people dedicate their lives to being mixing engineers and some people, know, et cetera, et cetera, mastering and so on. 370 00:30:31,115 --> 00:30:36,918 So it's like, man, like keeping that in mind, like, Hey, like, do you want to be that person or do you want to make music? 371 00:30:36,918 --> 00:30:37,378 You know? 372 00:30:37,378 --> 00:30:40,458 It's like, a way, it's kind of like, you know, do I want to be a podcaster? 373 00:30:40,458 --> 00:30:41,618 Do I want to be a musician? 374 00:30:41,618 --> 00:30:50,318 You know, it's like, do you want to be somebody who makes songs or do you want to be somebody who like has the best sounding guitar in a song that people aren't really 375 00:30:50,318 --> 00:30:53,498 connecting with or a song that you don't really care as much about? 376 00:30:53,498 --> 00:31:03,298 So I think it also speaks to that idea of like, are you doing music for academic purposes, you know, and trying to hit like certain kind of like fidelity thresholds? 377 00:31:03,298 --> 00:31:07,298 Or are you trying to like make a song that you really 378 00:31:07,298 --> 00:31:13,673 I don't know that captures something for you that hopefully you'll share and connect with other people in a similar way. 379 00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:17,112 And there's value to all that stuff. 380 00:31:17,132 --> 00:31:20,905 It is nice to learn and to understand and to study that. 381 00:31:20,905 --> 00:31:25,509 And sometimes that's what I'll do if I'm not feeling particularly inspired. 382 00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:34,206 I try to learn how to use a whatever device or how to place a mic or what happens if I do this or that. 383 00:31:35,387 --> 00:31:38,610 For me though, the goal is to just like create stuff. 384 00:31:38,610 --> 00:31:43,438 So if I'm in the middle of that, like I'm playing around with microphones and trying to 385 00:31:43,438 --> 00:31:47,038 get a sense of how they sound and I get inspired to make music. 386 00:31:47,038 --> 00:31:56,158 I'll drop that and I'll be like, okay, that this inspiration is way more precious and exciting for me. 387 00:31:56,298 --> 00:31:59,898 So I'll worry about like moving the mic around the room later. 388 00:31:59,898 --> 00:32:06,218 You know, I, if I'm like trying to get the mic to sound nice on drums and all of a sudden I come across a beat that inspires me. 389 00:32:06,218 --> 00:32:10,758 It's like, all right, just leave them where they are and record that beat and go from there. 390 00:32:10,890 --> 00:32:12,027 Yeah, I think... 391 00:32:14,034 --> 00:32:24,603 One of the things that I like from that Rick Rubin book a lot is he says like, and I don't know where this comes from for him, but the idea is like, as an artist, your job 392 00:32:24,603 --> 00:32:33,260 essentially is to, when you get those strikes of those moments of inspiration, that you follow those because you don't really get to choose when those happen. 393 00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:37,204 And anybody who does this knows that sometimes like it just happens. 394 00:32:37,204 --> 00:32:42,207 And to your point, like when you're in that place, like you can get distracted with some kind of technical thing. 395 00:32:42,778 --> 00:32:49,803 the more that you can kind of develop the awareness of like, this is happening right now and just following that through until it's over, you can always come back and deal with 396 00:32:49,803 --> 00:32:51,034 the mic thing later. 397 00:32:51,034 --> 00:32:59,099 And I think something that Dan says, Dan Giffin, is he has sessions that are specifically... 398 00:33:00,906 --> 00:33:06,289 kind of creation oriented, you know, creativity and others that are more like kind of admin stuff. 399 00:33:06,289 --> 00:33:08,720 I think he described it as like kind of left right brain. 400 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:09,300 Right. 401 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:11,731 So he'll have sessions where he'll like I'm making music today. 402 00:33:11,731 --> 00:33:12,401 Period. 403 00:33:12,401 --> 00:33:15,683 And then I'll have other sessions where he's like, I'm organizing samples. 404 00:33:15,683 --> 00:33:17,444 I'm you know, I'm collecting things. 405 00:33:17,444 --> 00:33:19,305 I'm I'm searching for samples. 406 00:33:19,305 --> 00:33:21,846 I'm I'm researching, et cetera, et cetera. 407 00:33:21,846 --> 00:33:22,076 Right. 408 00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:27,368 And I think again, like all I agree like all that stuff serves you. 409 00:33:27,368 --> 00:33:30,923 But doing it in a way more holistically that serves like 410 00:33:30,923 --> 00:33:35,104 whatever your higher level kind of vision or goal is, is really important. 411 00:33:35,104 --> 00:33:45,506 And it's a hard thing, like admittedly to maintain because it's easy to get distracted when you have like a buzzing cable, for instance, and you're like, where is that coming 412 00:33:45,506 --> 00:33:46,126 from? 413 00:33:46,126 --> 00:33:51,427 And so it does take some practice and all of those things to your point are incredibly valid. 414 00:33:51,428 --> 00:33:58,429 And it is like kind of figuring out the way that you kind of structure and budget that time around it and your intention around it is. 415 00:33:59,467 --> 00:34:01,268 really what makes the difference, I think. 416 00:34:02,284 --> 00:34:04,616 Yeah, it's part of what makes it so hard. 417 00:34:05,157 --> 00:34:17,427 The more like housekeeping stuff, like whether it's organizing files or making sure things are neat and here and plugged in and rearranging stuff to be more efficient. 418 00:34:17,427 --> 00:34:18,628 Those are all important. 419 00:34:18,628 --> 00:34:30,764 um Sometimes I find myself using those excuses, those as excuses to not do the work too of just knowing like you need to like try to make something because 420 00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:32,815 I don't know if I'm going to make anything. 421 00:34:32,895 --> 00:34:35,596 Like I could try and come up empty handed. 422 00:34:35,596 --> 00:34:40,708 I might not like what I have or whatever, but I know I can like get my wires neat. 423 00:34:40,708 --> 00:34:44,200 You know, I know I can dust the table. 424 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:45,780 Like that's going to happen. 425 00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:53,263 This carpet will be vacuumed like never before, like professionally because it's easy to do that. 426 00:34:53,464 --> 00:34:57,225 But the making part is a little bit more of an unknown. 427 00:34:57,285 --> 00:34:59,316 So I do know that. 428 00:34:59,862 --> 00:35:05,808 Myself, I'm very easy to fool like that. 429 00:35:05,808 --> 00:35:07,089 Like I'm being productive. 430 00:35:07,089 --> 00:35:08,651 I'm reorganizing the studio. 431 00:35:08,651 --> 00:35:09,802 I'm vacuuming the house. 432 00:35:09,802 --> 00:35:17,820 And really what I'm doing is like, I had a whole day to make music and I was looking forward to it all week and now I'm scared of it. 433 00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:24,923 I know, I think it's really, I feel like what you're describing is like the press field resistance, right? 434 00:35:24,923 --> 00:35:29,765 It's funny how that can really sneak up on you, right? 435 00:35:29,765 --> 00:35:34,567 Because to your point, you're like, no, I'm cleaning, I need to clean, this is dirty, I should clean it. 436 00:35:34,567 --> 00:35:38,889 But it's like, hey, what you're actually doing is avoiding it. 437 00:35:38,889 --> 00:35:44,362 And again, I think it also takes experience and some humility to kind of admit that to yourself. 438 00:35:44,362 --> 00:35:49,017 Like, oh, wow, I'm subconsciously avoiding 439 00:35:49,017 --> 00:35:58,214 doing this thing that I know that I like want to do but something and I'm allowing myself to get distracted and pulled to these other things and I think sometimes those technical 440 00:35:58,214 --> 00:36:10,404 challenges even you know outside of cleaning like technical stuff mix ideas or which compressor should I use etc etc like those things can be disguised as like productive 441 00:36:10,404 --> 00:36:18,970 worthwhile things in times where you're like promised yourself that you were gonna like be working on some kind of project you know so to your point they all 442 00:36:18,970 --> 00:36:28,430 do matter and they all you need to do that but only you know individually whether or not you're avoiding it or not nobody can tell you that 443 00:36:28,780 --> 00:36:42,159 Yeah, yeah, and Steven Pressfield in this book, War of Art, was probably the first time I ever read about this sort productive procrastination and heard it. 444 00:36:42,159 --> 00:36:44,341 He gave it the label, resistance. 445 00:36:44,341 --> 00:36:50,644 Resistance is the force that is trying to prevent you from doing creative work. 446 00:36:51,365 --> 00:36:52,666 he likes to... 447 00:36:52,766 --> 00:36:54,907 give it this sort of personification. 448 00:36:54,907 --> 00:37:00,329 Like there's the muse and it's a spirit that comes to you when you're working and there's resistance. 449 00:37:00,329 --> 00:37:01,510 It's like good and evil. 450 00:37:01,510 --> 00:37:08,093 And I think whether or not that's true, it's good to have these labels for things so you can just identify it quickly. 451 00:37:08,093 --> 00:37:11,114 Like, no, look, this is resistance. 452 00:37:11,154 --> 00:37:19,277 Like, what do I want more to have like a body of work of music or to know that like I went through my life with clean dishes. 453 00:37:20,118 --> 00:37:20,854 Right. 454 00:37:20,854 --> 00:37:23,075 Like my carpet was vacuumed. 455 00:37:24,576 --> 00:37:30,529 So to have it, and that's part of where this whole talking it out too, for me helps a lot. 456 00:37:30,529 --> 00:37:42,155 Then if I can start saying this stuff and documenting it and keeping track of it, then instead of these sort of cloudy things, I can throw out something like resistance and know 457 00:37:42,155 --> 00:37:45,096 what that means and let it go and move forward. 458 00:37:45,547 --> 00:37:57,004 Yeah, I agree that the naming is so important and like to be fair, it's like you can be super specific and classify them in like really fine buckets. 459 00:37:57,004 --> 00:38:02,778 But the reality is that is kind of a waste of time when you realize that it all bubbles up to, I'm just avoiding this. 460 00:38:02,778 --> 00:38:04,669 This is all just resistance, right? 461 00:38:04,669 --> 00:38:13,435 You can get really specific, but when you just make the high level categorization, you're like, oh, and then you can kind of let it go and get back to what you're doing. 462 00:38:14,135 --> 00:38:15,096 And so. 463 00:38:15,324 --> 00:38:17,135 It is really funny how that is. 464 00:38:17,135 --> 00:38:26,813 I think to your point, documenting writing is to me just like, I've learned for me like the best way to avoid those kinds of things. 465 00:38:26,813 --> 00:38:30,906 Like, I don't think it's possible to like eliminate them from your life. 466 00:38:30,906 --> 00:38:32,357 Like they're just always there. 467 00:38:32,357 --> 00:38:36,059 But I think having a consistent writing practice creates. 468 00:38:37,096 --> 00:38:44,805 It's sort of one of those flashlights to me of being like, helping be aware of like, like this is what's happening in my life daily. 469 00:38:44,805 --> 00:38:53,095 And then I can be aware of like how I'm avoiding things, not doing things, neglecting things, maybe spending too much time on something, you know? 470 00:38:53,095 --> 00:38:54,190 m 471 00:38:54,190 --> 00:38:58,713 m What does that look like for you, the consistent writing process? 472 00:38:58,713 --> 00:39:00,165 It's like a journal. 473 00:39:01,108 --> 00:39:05,471 Yeah, so it started for me with a, you're familiar with the artist's way. 474 00:39:07,193 --> 00:39:10,996 So yeah, Julia Cameron. 475 00:39:12,018 --> 00:39:23,668 And so that was one of those books that was recommended to me like a long time ago when I was like first starting like to take the production piece of music more seriously and. 476 00:39:24,264 --> 00:39:33,858 I was somebody too, especially before that where I was not, you know, my initial gut reaction was very like, this is very woo woo and et cetera, et And that, but really like, 477 00:39:33,858 --> 00:39:35,409 that's one of those books you don't really read. 478 00:39:35,409 --> 00:39:38,551 It's like, it's actually like a workbook more so than it is reading. 479 00:39:38,551 --> 00:39:44,513 And it kind of, if you, it's the classic thing, it's like, you kind of get out what you put into it. 480 00:39:44,674 --> 00:39:49,796 But one of the fundamental core practices in that book is what she calls morning pages. 481 00:39:50,056 --> 00:39:53,657 And so the idea is like a stream of consciousness. 482 00:39:54,181 --> 00:39:57,973 for like, for three pages. 483 00:39:57,973 --> 00:39:58,893 So it's not a timeline. 484 00:39:58,893 --> 00:40:01,034 It's like you're supposed to fill three pages. 485 00:40:01,034 --> 00:40:04,016 And you're supposed to do it like first thing in the morning. 486 00:40:04,016 --> 00:40:07,117 So that was like kind of my introduction to it. 487 00:40:07,117 --> 00:40:09,459 I had never really spent any time. 488 00:40:09,459 --> 00:40:17,002 I mean, it's funny, like looking back, it made me realize, there were times in my life where like I was interested in this, but I never committed to it in some way. 489 00:40:17,002 --> 00:40:20,724 So I started doing that. 490 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,660 pretty religiously, even when I had finished going through the book. 491 00:40:23,660 --> 00:40:28,280 I was for a period of time, I think I did that book in like 2019. 492 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:36,900 And I was writing like seven days a week, you know, and in a way, I mean, you know, we had the pandemic in there for part of that, right? 493 00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:47,060 So it's like, it's so it's, yeah, so I would say like, what's really interesting about it is if you at the very beginning, I was very 494 00:40:47,956 --> 00:40:57,022 when it was like purely morning pages and I was in that stage, you know that feeling everybody had like when you get up and you're like kind of your brain is like between 495 00:40:57,022 --> 00:41:02,586 being asleep, you maybe like are starting to forget dreams, but you can kind of still remember them. 496 00:41:02,586 --> 00:41:05,948 You're getting into your day, you're starting to think about what you have to do. 497 00:41:06,296 --> 00:41:12,593 If you just really, the only rule in that is that you're supposed to just not let the pen stop moving, right? 498 00:41:12,593 --> 00:41:16,675 And so the things that will fall out of you at those points in time, 499 00:41:17,277 --> 00:41:21,228 are are just like things that you know are there. 500 00:41:22,974 --> 00:41:25,125 But they go so quickly. 501 00:41:25,125 --> 00:41:29,686 I have to imagine there's hundreds or thousands of thoughts that we have in a day. 502 00:41:29,686 --> 00:41:30,946 I'm just making these numbers up. 503 00:41:30,946 --> 00:41:34,267 But it's got to be thousands, really. 504 00:41:34,267 --> 00:41:36,208 Depending on how you define a thought, I don't know. 505 00:41:36,208 --> 00:41:38,468 But let's say you have thousands of thoughts a day. 506 00:41:38,468 --> 00:41:41,239 Most of them come and go in a way where you're not going to remember them. 507 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:46,511 And so for me, what I've learned is I don't necessarily officially do morning pages anymore. 508 00:41:46,511 --> 00:41:48,731 I still do three pages. 509 00:41:51,551 --> 00:41:54,336 I do it at this point usually five days a week. 510 00:41:54,336 --> 00:41:58,234 try to give myself the weekends off because I can be a little obsessive with stuff. 511 00:41:58,234 --> 00:42:03,042 So, but I also, there are times where I go through it I'm not writing and I notice. 512 00:42:03,042 --> 00:42:04,330 oh 513 00:42:04,330 --> 00:42:09,093 that I'm like in other, in work that I'm doing, like, like there's like that built up energy. 514 00:42:09,093 --> 00:42:10,914 There's something that hasn't been released. 515 00:42:10,914 --> 00:42:14,926 And so getting back to that is a really important thing for me. 516 00:42:14,946 --> 00:42:25,512 I would say the reason that I try to encourage, and this is one of those things I want to try to find a way to do one of those individual like rants about, which I guess I'm kind 517 00:42:25,512 --> 00:42:32,696 of doing right now, but it's like basically like every, everybody has at least two voices. 518 00:42:33,032 --> 00:42:43,120 inside of them and one is kind of like the CEO PR person and the other one is sort of like the weird like creative like product person that's like kind of in the background right 519 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:52,612 and so the other thing is I tend to believe like thoughts become words become actions become habits and so on right so 520 00:42:53,022 --> 00:42:58,615 the CEOs and PR thoughts are usually the thoughts that kind of get executed, right? 521 00:42:58,615 --> 00:43:08,479 And those other thoughts in the background by that more creative or wild person is they don't get written down and they get filtered out by the CEO, PR person. 522 00:43:08,479 --> 00:43:15,372 When you start to write those ideas down, it's the closest you can get to seeing your thoughts. 523 00:43:15,372 --> 00:43:18,464 It's like a mirror for your insights. 524 00:43:18,524 --> 00:43:23,036 And when you start to do that, the more frequently you're able to do it, the more quickly 525 00:43:23,036 --> 00:43:26,608 you're gonna be able to see patterns in your own life. 526 00:43:26,669 --> 00:43:31,472 So, and again, like connecting it to like kind of that like breaking it down really small. 527 00:43:31,472 --> 00:43:35,935 When I first started that back in the day, I was really intimidated by like writing. 528 00:43:35,935 --> 00:43:38,336 I had no writing practice at all. 529 00:43:38,336 --> 00:43:42,839 So the idea of writing three pages sounded like, I was like, that's a lot, you know? 530 00:43:42,839 --> 00:43:47,182 So I started with like a really small notebook where the pages are really small. 531 00:43:47,182 --> 00:43:50,464 And those were my three pages to start with. 532 00:43:50,464 --> 00:43:52,859 And then over time, I was like, all right, I'll step it up to 533 00:43:52,859 --> 00:44:02,417 bigger book now you know and so now I just use a little notebook but it's like it is so it's the closest you can get to seeing your thoughts and when you start to like let those 534 00:44:02,417 --> 00:44:12,035 like little kind of like more creative or like what what you're more like kind of polished version of yourself or with a more polished voice would dismiss 535 00:44:12,298 --> 00:44:18,551 When you start to just let those things exist and you write them down over and over again, you start to just like think about them differently. 536 00:44:18,551 --> 00:44:27,535 And I would say that like things that I've done in music, I think the podcast, even like reaching out to you back when we first met, like all of those things started as just like 537 00:44:27,535 --> 00:44:30,136 little ideas, like, hey, what if I did this? 538 00:44:30,136 --> 00:44:35,029 You know, because for a while starting a podcast seemed like who would I talk to? 539 00:44:35,029 --> 00:44:37,860 Who would want to talk to me, et cetera, et cetera, you know? 540 00:44:38,292 --> 00:44:41,014 But that's like that CEO telling you like, this is crazy. 541 00:44:41,014 --> 00:44:45,537 You know, like that's not gonna, that's not, what are you, who are you to do these kinds of things? 542 00:44:45,537 --> 00:44:50,000 And so, but it wasn't like I wrote it down one time and the next day I had a podcast. 543 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,903 It's like, you know, it builds its kind of strength and volume over time, you know? 544 00:44:53,903 --> 00:45:04,260 And so what you learn through watering that like, to call it secondary doesn't really feel fair, but to call it like a voice that maybe just gets less attention or is dismissed more 545 00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:07,792 quickly as somebody that's like maybe in the clouds too much. 546 00:45:08,660 --> 00:45:13,508 will change the way that you see things and do things if you give that attention. 547 00:45:13,508 --> 00:45:18,454 And so I couldn't recommend enough that people give it a try to some extent. 548 00:45:19,330 --> 00:45:21,211 That's a cool experience. 549 00:45:21,351 --> 00:45:23,952 I have a similar thought about the mind. 550 00:45:23,952 --> 00:45:27,023 It's almost like when you're dreaming, right? 551 00:45:27,023 --> 00:45:30,034 Like things go crazy, right? 552 00:45:30,034 --> 00:45:31,355 There's no logic. 553 00:45:31,355 --> 00:45:33,046 There's no one in control anymore. 554 00:45:33,046 --> 00:45:39,358 It's like the kids are out playing and they've got their imaginations and that's why your dreams are so insane half the time. 555 00:45:39,358 --> 00:45:48,692 But when you wake up, it's like you said that CEO side, that kind of like orderly adults comes into play and you know, 556 00:45:48,692 --> 00:45:50,203 straightens you out a little bit. 557 00:45:50,203 --> 00:45:58,067 But in those like groggy moments, it's like, yeah, the kids are still on the playground and the adults are like not really aware yet. 558 00:45:58,067 --> 00:46:00,288 And they're still kind of getting away with it. 559 00:46:00,408 --> 00:46:03,920 So it's a very interesting time to capture your thoughts. 560 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:14,276 And like, in my case, when I'm like taking a shower in the morning to get ready for work, it's like, most of the time still dark out. 561 00:46:14,676 --> 00:46:16,679 A lot of interesting things go through my head. 562 00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:18,578 And a lot of times. 563 00:46:18,670 --> 00:46:20,491 problems get solved. 564 00:46:21,292 --> 00:46:24,253 Ideas for what I'm going to teach at school happen in there. 565 00:46:24,253 --> 00:46:37,460 um They've said, I've read at least, our brain works on problems like when we're sleeping and as we take breaks from things. 566 00:46:37,921 --> 00:46:43,664 It's true of practice they found, they've studied music students that never take breaks. 567 00:46:43,664 --> 00:46:47,288 They play for like four hours and nonstop compare them to 568 00:46:47,288 --> 00:46:51,822 people that play for the same four hours, but take a 10 minute break every once in a while. 569 00:46:51,822 --> 00:46:56,926 And there's something about the brain that kind of absorbs and processes. 570 00:46:56,926 --> 00:46:59,507 And that happens, think, during our sleep too. 571 00:47:00,389 --> 00:47:04,452 And ah capturing that on paper is, I mean, great. 572 00:47:04,452 --> 00:47:13,559 I've done this a little bit in the past, definitely not as religiously as you're doing it, but you don't have to do much of it even to see the results. 573 00:47:13,559 --> 00:47:16,842 Maybe going back to some of the uh things we said earlier about 574 00:47:16,842 --> 00:47:18,983 even a little bit helps a lot. 575 00:47:19,103 --> 00:47:24,905 Just if you can't do the three pages, maybe you can do the three minutes or something. 576 00:47:24,905 --> 00:47:27,566 But you're not filtering that. 577 00:47:27,566 --> 00:47:30,167 Like you said, it's the idea of the pen moves. 578 00:47:30,167 --> 00:47:35,109 And even if the pen is saying, I don't know what to write, I don't know what to write, it has to be moving. 579 00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:37,697 And things come out in that. 580 00:47:37,697 --> 00:47:38,477 Yeah. 581 00:47:38,477 --> 00:47:44,037 Because the emphasis again, kind of like we're talking about before on the creativity, it's not about what you write. 582 00:47:44,037 --> 00:47:46,877 It's about taking the time to write. 583 00:47:46,877 --> 00:47:47,317 Right. 584 00:47:47,317 --> 00:47:49,537 And so it's also like we're not talking about handwriting. 585 00:47:49,537 --> 00:47:52,036 We're not talking about punctuation, grammar. 586 00:47:52,137 --> 00:47:56,457 You know, we're not talking about complete ideas or sentences like you may read it later. 587 00:47:56,457 --> 00:47:58,897 I mean, that's the thing is like you never really ever have to read it. 588 00:47:58,897 --> 00:48:00,617 It's just about getting it out. 589 00:48:00,617 --> 00:48:05,300 But if you read it, it may not even make sense later, you know, and that's OK. 590 00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:10,452 The point is not like you're not writing something for anybody but for yourself. 591 00:48:10,452 --> 00:48:26,179 But I know it sounds so I realize like it sounds very woo woo but it is like a very it's a very therapeutic and informative process because it's it's just you're essentially having 592 00:48:26,179 --> 00:48:28,580 conversations you don't have the rest of the day. 593 00:48:30,466 --> 00:48:33,827 Yeah, you're acknowledging what's going on up there. 594 00:48:34,988 --> 00:48:43,391 Like you said, think, man, I bet hundreds of thousands of thoughts a day is a low estimate, right? 595 00:48:43,391 --> 00:48:45,412 It's nonstop chatter. 596 00:48:45,412 --> 00:48:47,783 mean, meditation will show you that too. 597 00:48:47,783 --> 00:48:55,976 If you sit with your thoughts, the real, this type of meditation I've done anyway, is all about just noticing that you're doing it. 598 00:48:56,357 --> 00:48:57,407 Focus on your breathing. 599 00:48:57,407 --> 00:48:59,808 You're, all right, let's just follow it. 600 00:48:59,808 --> 00:49:02,420 Next thing you know, you're somewhere else. 601 00:49:02,420 --> 00:49:06,582 And the whole trick is to be like, yeah, I was supposed to be thinking about breathing. 602 00:49:06,582 --> 00:49:07,422 Okay. 603 00:49:07,422 --> 00:49:13,605 And to just see that you're doing it and let it go and not necessarily identify with it. 604 00:49:13,866 --> 00:49:20,709 like those crazy thoughts you might write down in your morning pages, it's not meant to be truth. 605 00:49:21,450 --> 00:49:24,242 It's just, this is what's happening. 606 00:49:24,242 --> 00:49:29,004 And you kind of, um, give it some light of day. 607 00:49:29,066 --> 00:49:32,128 to see what is going on in there. 608 00:49:32,408 --> 00:49:35,510 And from there, you can do a lot with it. 609 00:49:35,890 --> 00:49:45,536 You might get your ideas or you might decide, yeah, maybe it's not so crazy that I reach out to this person or I start a podcast and see who will talk to me or all that kind of 610 00:49:45,536 --> 00:49:46,656 stuff. 611 00:49:47,177 --> 00:49:48,087 You give it a shot. 612 00:49:48,087 --> 00:49:56,686 Because if you let the CEO mind, like you said, think of what happens when companies get 613 00:49:56,686 --> 00:50:02,826 too big and the only goal is to increase profit and they get safe, right? 614 00:50:02,826 --> 00:50:06,786 They only do things that have worked before. 615 00:50:06,906 --> 00:50:13,926 Whereas the whole reason they got there in the first place is because they had someone that dared to dream and dare to risk things. 616 00:50:13,926 --> 00:50:17,986 And now here we are with the CEO in charge, it's like, well, I don't know if we can take that chance. 617 00:50:17,986 --> 00:50:22,346 It's going to be, and that's what we kind of do in our brains a little bit. 618 00:50:22,346 --> 00:50:27,387 Yeah, and it's like, I don't even mean to bash the CEO, like, like entirely. 619 00:50:27,387 --> 00:50:28,348 Yeah. 620 00:50:29,011 --> 00:50:29,603 Yeah. 621 00:50:29,603 --> 00:50:30,143 job. 622 00:50:30,143 --> 00:50:37,967 That's, that's their job, but they, you don't want that to be the only one that gets a say. 623 00:50:37,967 --> 00:50:39,677 It's kind of like the inner critic too. 624 00:50:39,677 --> 00:50:41,568 Like it's got a job. 625 00:50:41,568 --> 00:50:46,970 It's protecting you, you know, don't make a fool of yourself idiot, but don't let it be the dictator. 626 00:50:47,031 --> 00:50:48,821 It's not the only one that's in charge. 627 00:50:48,821 --> 00:50:55,422 has a vote, but yeah, hear it out, but let it go if you need to. 628 00:50:55,422 --> 00:51:01,915 And if you think like, you know, given our context, it's like, if you think about this, you know, like a mixing console and a bunch of faders, you know what I mean? 629 00:51:01,915 --> 00:51:08,998 And all the different voices that exist in your head, you know, and like, just be aware of what the levels are of each of those voices. 630 00:51:08,998 --> 00:51:10,039 You know what I mean? 631 00:51:10,039 --> 00:51:15,732 And sometimes like some of us have them literally on mute, you know, and others on solo, you know what I mean? 632 00:51:15,732 --> 00:51:25,086 And so just being aware of like what that balance is like, I think is a really, is something that I think is hard to get to without 633 00:51:25,947 --> 00:51:37,286 writing as like part of a practice you know around because other people it's not other people can't necessarily show you because it's like again it's it's inside you know 634 00:51:37,624 --> 00:51:40,696 Well, I think most people don't do it too. 635 00:51:40,736 --> 00:51:43,878 At least that I'm exposed to. 636 00:51:43,878 --> 00:51:45,479 I'll speak for that. 637 00:51:45,479 --> 00:51:54,244 Like, I don't know too many people that do that kind of stuff or spend time meditating and thinking about their thoughts. 638 00:51:54,546 --> 00:51:56,626 You know, like everyone's busy. 639 00:51:56,967 --> 00:51:58,178 No shame to them. 640 00:51:58,178 --> 00:52:04,492 But the more artistic people I know do things like that. 641 00:52:05,133 --> 00:52:07,574 You know, the creative people definitely do. 642 00:52:10,162 --> 00:52:18,556 A lot of people I think who are, you know, quote unquote, like successful in conventional terms are very structured in how those things happen. 643 00:52:18,556 --> 00:52:21,898 I think like from the outside, it looks like, they just have it. 644 00:52:21,898 --> 00:52:24,329 But I think like, I think you're a great example. 645 00:52:24,329 --> 00:52:33,023 I think I said this when we spoke before, we're like, you know, you are somebody who has created a bunch of different kinds of very tangible projects, right? 646 00:52:33,023 --> 00:52:36,264 And have built a very real audience around what you do. 647 00:52:36,264 --> 00:52:40,096 And I think it's like, you understand, like, I mean, as we've talked about neither of us, 648 00:52:40,096 --> 00:52:48,235 is excused from the struggles of creativity and having bad days or days that don't work out the way that we kind of intended when we got up. 649 00:52:48,510 --> 00:52:53,092 That said, I think you understand sort of like that 80-20 kind of distinction, right? 650 00:52:53,092 --> 00:53:01,046 Like these are the important big pieces for me to knock out in order to keep these things happening and not getting lost in like, is this mic in the perfect position? 651 00:53:01,086 --> 00:53:04,687 And that is, that is really like kind of like the secret. 652 00:53:04,687 --> 00:53:08,509 That's not a secret in my opinion, is that like, there are no shortcuts. 653 00:53:08,509 --> 00:53:11,410 It's just like, don't try to do everything. 654 00:53:11,511 --> 00:53:18,924 Understand what's important to you and understand what the important parts of that thing happening are and work according 655 00:53:20,696 --> 00:53:21,547 Hmm. 656 00:53:22,694 --> 00:53:27,740 Yeah, you can do anything you want, but you can't do everything you want. 657 00:53:28,265 --> 00:53:36,535 I do think like, you know, saying no is an important part of it and just something that I have to remind myself like a lot of the time, like there are times where... 658 00:53:37,838 --> 00:53:38,675 . 659 00:53:38,675 --> 00:53:41,477 like this is a cool idea, but I can't do this right now. 660 00:53:41,477 --> 00:53:49,710 So like it gets written down somewhere, you know, but I'm like, okay, this, I'm being honest, like if I, if I do take this on, then what am I willing to put down? 661 00:53:49,710 --> 00:53:50,690 You know? 662 00:53:51,051 --> 00:53:59,274 And I try to think of, I think we talked about him before too, and this might've been offline, but with Cal Newport, who's written like, you know, books around like creativity 663 00:53:59,274 --> 00:54:07,848 and kind of anti, he's like, he's a really great nerdy guy, but really, really, again, somebody who's written a lot and has very, like has a 664 00:54:07,848 --> 00:54:13,363 of clarity around his philosophy and thoughts and so his his book called Slow Productivity 665 00:54:14,036 --> 00:54:22,720 He's like, you shouldn't, he's like any more, like he's like three high level objectives or goals is a lot, right? 666 00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:24,841 Any more than that, you're probably not getting even done. 667 00:54:24,841 --> 00:54:29,303 And even even three is a lot more than people kind of think, you know? 668 00:54:29,303 --> 00:54:37,187 And so the way that I've been thinking about it for me is, you know, music, like making music, my catalog, the second part is the podcast. 669 00:54:37,187 --> 00:54:39,158 And the third part recently has been practicing. 670 00:54:39,158 --> 00:54:44,020 Like I'm really trying to like help like rev up chops and I wanna have a gig and so the third leg 671 00:54:44,020 --> 00:54:45,311 kind of performance. 672 00:54:45,311 --> 00:54:48,913 So like those are the three things that I try to stay focused on, right? 673 00:54:48,913 --> 00:54:53,523 There are smaller, I'm talking about this with people, say it's like a pinata thing. 674 00:54:53,523 --> 00:54:55,677 So like those are the three big things. 675 00:54:55,938 --> 00:55:01,302 If I break each of those up, those are comprised of kind of projects. 676 00:55:01,302 --> 00:55:09,467 And then those projects are comprised of like actual like actions I need to take, you know, and figuring out how to structure those in time. 677 00:55:09,467 --> 00:55:14,010 But if something I'm doing is not laddering up to one of those three things, then I'm not doing 678 00:55:14,010 --> 00:55:16,933 what I said was important to me, you know what I mean? 679 00:55:16,933 --> 00:55:25,602 And so those are the things that I try to like reflect on and when I make my list for the day I'm like okay these things I want to do because they're helping me achieve one of 680 00:55:25,602 --> 00:55:26,903 those three things. 681 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:29,721 Yeah, that's a good way to think of it. 682 00:55:29,721 --> 00:55:34,855 Yeah, like working on even one big thing is a lot. 683 00:55:35,677 --> 00:55:38,499 Did I see this clip, maybe it was from you. 684 00:55:38,499 --> 00:55:47,106 um Somebody saying that think of like the number of things you think you can do and like subtract two from it. 685 00:55:48,328 --> 00:55:48,698 No? 686 00:55:48,698 --> 00:55:49,668 Okay. 687 00:55:49,909 --> 00:55:50,710 Something like that. 688 00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:55,273 Like if you think you do five things and try to do three, if you think you can only do three things, do one. 689 00:55:55,327 --> 00:56:02,870 Yeah, and that's the thing, man, is like start smaller and like, you know, give yourself like some real evidence about what you can accomplish. 690 00:56:02,870 --> 00:56:03,801 You know what mean? 691 00:56:03,801 --> 00:56:08,883 And not in a way where you're judging yourself in comparison to what you think other people are doing. 692 00:56:08,883 --> 00:56:14,565 Like if you compare yourself to as a podcaster to Tim Fairs, that's not fair, right? 693 00:56:14,565 --> 00:56:16,196 It's not you're not in the same place. 694 00:56:16,196 --> 00:56:19,337 You're not in the same level of resources, etc, etc. 695 00:56:19,337 --> 00:56:19,518 Right. 696 00:56:19,518 --> 00:56:23,349 So you really do have to be careful about how you do those things. 697 00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:25,270 And I think, again, like right sizing that. 698 00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:29,273 understanding what your goals are, what do you want? 699 00:56:29,273 --> 00:56:33,235 Are you saying that you want things because this is what other people seem to want? 700 00:56:33,235 --> 00:56:35,897 You know, or is this actually your goal? 701 00:56:35,897 --> 00:56:43,923 You know, and I think like just developing that clarity is so helpful in like kind of being like, okay, some of that stuff is just noise. 702 00:56:43,923 --> 00:56:44,643 Like I get it. 703 00:56:44,643 --> 00:56:49,867 Like that would be cool to like be able to talk to that person or it would be cool to drive this car. 704 00:56:49,867 --> 00:56:53,189 But is that really like what I'm doing right now? 705 00:56:53,189 --> 00:56:55,220 Or does any of that have to do with like this? 706 00:56:55,220 --> 00:56:56,614 task at hand. 707 00:56:57,570 --> 00:56:57,840 Yeah. 708 00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:59,882 Yeah. 709 00:56:59,882 --> 00:57:09,780 And I like, like when I think of the podcast too, the real beauty of it is just doing it as its own reward. 710 00:57:09,780 --> 00:57:14,984 Like if we were just having this conversation and it never got published, it's valuable to me. 711 00:57:15,305 --> 00:57:16,306 I'm learning a lot. 712 00:57:16,306 --> 00:57:24,493 thinking a lot about stuff and I'm evaluating myself and figuring out like how you work and what I can take away from that. 713 00:57:24,493 --> 00:57:26,604 Like all this stuff is like seeping in. 714 00:57:26,824 --> 00:57:29,345 It wouldn't matter if this didn't go anywhere. 715 00:57:29,345 --> 00:57:33,377 The fact that it can is just bonus really. 716 00:57:33,878 --> 00:57:36,819 And I love things like that. 717 00:57:36,819 --> 00:57:42,422 like, you know, even just like making music, it just makes me a better person. 718 00:57:42,443 --> 00:57:46,104 I've learned how to be calmer, more relaxed. 719 00:57:46,104 --> 00:57:47,385 I've learned how to have patience. 720 00:57:47,385 --> 00:57:50,346 I've learned how to work with other people. 721 00:57:50,687 --> 00:57:56,430 It's done so much aside from just the music itself. 722 00:57:56,674 --> 00:58:00,135 just the reward of finishing something, which is a whole other layer. 723 00:58:01,096 --> 00:58:08,378 finding things on those levels, even like making packs for me has been so rewarding because I have all these sounds now. 724 00:58:10,859 --> 00:58:11,950 That's great. 725 00:58:11,950 --> 00:58:18,272 And the fact that people want them or want to use them or make music with them is again, it's like bonus material. 726 00:58:19,050 --> 00:58:20,128 Yeah, man, I... 727 00:58:20,168 --> 00:58:29,582 I really share a lot of that, that feeling that you described in terms of like this conversation in and of itself for the participants is worthwhile, you know, and that's why 728 00:58:29,582 --> 00:58:38,377 we share it because the interesting like kind of paradox is like there is only you, you're the only you, but you're also just like everybody else. 729 00:58:38,377 --> 00:58:42,238 So if this works for us, it's going to work for somebody else. 730 00:58:42,238 --> 00:58:42,949 You know what I mean? 731 00:58:42,949 --> 00:58:45,050 And so I do feel really grateful. 732 00:58:45,050 --> 00:58:47,881 mean, I think we've had a similar experience. 733 00:58:48,061 --> 00:58:50,082 Obviously you're having spent much more time in this 734 00:58:50,082 --> 00:59:01,182 space, I didn't I mean, it's so obvious in hindsight, but the amount that I've learned through the podcast of like having people on and their willingness to share the things 735 00:59:01,182 --> 00:59:03,342 that they figured out. 736 00:59:03,342 --> 00:59:10,242 And some of these people I had already known in person, some of them I've since met in real life after the fact. 737 00:59:10,242 --> 00:59:11,750 And so it's just. 738 00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:21,315 in a world where like I think music production, especially because of how technology is advanced and because of the accessibility in our in our own rooms, we do so much by 739 00:59:21,315 --> 00:59:22,126 ourselves. 740 00:59:22,126 --> 00:59:31,981 So it's been this really nice way to just genuinely get time one on one with somebody and just talk in depth about random things that come up that are very specific to what we 741 00:59:31,981 --> 00:59:34,152 experience as musicians. 742 00:59:36,049 --> 00:59:45,108 When did you get like your permission slip in the mail to do your podcast or your certificate or your degree that gave you the right to make this podcast? 743 00:59:45,108 --> 00:59:46,117 The producer head? 744 00:59:46,117 --> 00:59:50,599 So I just signed up at Phoenix University for the podcast Acceleration. 745 00:59:50,599 --> 01:00:03,905 But no, yeah, man, to that point, that's why I just, to anybody listening, like, I just, I think one of the biggest light bulbs for me was just like, the more that you dig into 746 01:00:03,905 --> 01:00:14,670 stuff and get, you and you get nerdy about musicians or writers or filmmakers, whatever it happens to be, at some point, I just was like, wow, these are just people, you know, and 747 01:00:14,670 --> 01:00:15,740 they just like didn't give 748 01:00:15,740 --> 01:00:29,113 up and so much, whether you like experience like the material external success and recognition, I think like what you learn and experience through just trying to do stuff 749 01:00:29,473 --> 01:00:36,155 is, I don't know, it's just, it's hard to put words to that. 750 01:00:36,155 --> 01:00:39,936 And so what I've learned in just committing to do this, 751 01:00:40,926 --> 01:00:44,549 because of what it is to have a podcast, know, like this is the fun part, right? 752 01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:46,761 We just get to like talk about this stuff. 753 01:00:46,761 --> 01:00:52,486 There's like, you know, like the scheduling and like the outreach and there's, you know, the organization and the social. 754 01:00:52,486 --> 01:00:57,750 It's like, there's a lot of things that are less glamorous than just having this conversation. 755 01:00:58,452 --> 01:01:03,315 But by committing to the process overall and just be like, I'm gonna just keep doing this because... 756 01:01:03,934 --> 01:01:08,656 I feel great after the conversation and when it comes out, I'm like, man, you know, this is cool. 757 01:01:08,656 --> 01:01:11,578 And somebody sends you a message and goes, Hey, like I learned something. 758 01:01:11,578 --> 01:01:12,298 This is really cool. 759 01:01:12,298 --> 01:01:15,730 I didn't even know this person's music existed and now I'm listening to it. 760 01:01:15,790 --> 01:01:18,031 Some people have like collaborated as a result of it. 761 01:01:18,031 --> 01:01:21,873 You know, it's like stuff like that is just like, how do you put a price on that? 762 01:01:21,873 --> 01:01:22,339 You know what I mean? 763 01:01:22,339 --> 01:01:26,235 And I'm just another dude who just started a podcast, you know? 764 01:01:26,456 --> 01:01:27,246 Hmm. 765 01:01:28,227 --> 01:01:40,550 Yeah, I'd say that because I think for a lot of us, feels sort of like we're being arrogant almost to like, cause like, the hell am I to do this? 766 01:01:40,550 --> 01:01:44,511 And who the hell am I to like put a song on Spotify? 767 01:01:44,511 --> 01:01:46,252 Who am I to, right? 768 01:01:46,252 --> 01:01:54,614 Like it feels like you, somebody needs to ordain me first and give me the permission. 769 01:01:54,678 --> 01:01:57,139 let me into the club or something. 770 01:01:57,540 --> 01:02:02,083 But you just sort of do it. 771 01:02:02,083 --> 01:02:03,304 You just become it. 772 01:02:03,304 --> 01:02:05,646 You declare it yourself. 773 01:02:05,646 --> 01:02:11,130 You adopt it as an identity and that's what people that do podcasts do. 774 01:02:11,130 --> 01:02:12,731 That's what people that make music do. 775 01:02:12,731 --> 01:02:14,092 And that's what I am. 776 01:02:14,092 --> 01:02:23,158 And I've found like, and I think you have too, that you get kind of surprised sometimes where 777 01:02:23,968 --> 01:02:28,562 You can sense that some people are like, happened to when I started doing live packs, right? 778 01:02:28,562 --> 01:02:31,694 Like I didn't know much about Ableton Live at all at the time. 779 01:02:31,694 --> 01:02:37,068 I just figured out how to use the sampler and I was putting stuff in it and making instruments. 780 01:02:37,069 --> 01:02:41,412 And I decided to just make them available for people to download. 781 01:02:41,592 --> 01:02:45,995 And people thought I was like some sort of Ableton Live expert. 782 01:02:48,658 --> 01:02:50,339 I was like, I don't know. 783 01:02:50,339 --> 01:02:53,261 just, they'd ask me questions about other stuff. 784 01:02:54,018 --> 01:02:57,371 really sure but sometimes I'd figure it out. 785 01:02:57,371 --> 01:03:00,253 I'm like, oh let me see if I can figure that out for this person. 786 01:03:00,253 --> 01:03:03,805 I can't believe someone wants to know an answer from me. 787 01:03:04,486 --> 01:03:14,183 And through that process I started to learn and I was showing up trying to make them consistently and you know next thing you know you're like I actually do know a lot about 788 01:03:14,183 --> 01:03:15,074 this now. 789 01:03:15,074 --> 01:03:20,337 I do know something about putting on a podcast or whatever. 790 01:03:20,468 --> 01:03:23,627 Yeah, and bring us the present day, you're an Ableton certified trainer. 791 01:03:24,278 --> 01:03:32,733 Yeah, the thing that really gets me, I think the most is like I teach this Berkeley online class, Sampling in Ableton Live. 792 01:03:32,733 --> 01:03:36,745 And I got people in the class that are getting degrees that I don't have. 793 01:03:37,346 --> 01:03:40,128 And I'm a teacher, like I don't have a music degree. 794 01:03:40,128 --> 01:03:43,520 And like, here you are going to Berkeley and taking this class. 795 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,891 Like, it's kind of funny. 796 01:03:45,891 --> 01:03:50,792 And sometimes that really fuels the imposter syndrome too. 797 01:03:50,792 --> 01:03:51,955 Mm Sure. 798 01:03:51,955 --> 01:03:58,259 what are they going to realize that I'm just like some idiot that's been, you know, just running his mouth about this stuff. 799 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,694 But there's no certificate that comes in the mail. 800 01:04:02,694 --> 01:04:08,666 There's no, you know, official doctrine that you can now be a podcast or Julian. 801 01:04:08,666 --> 01:04:09,827 Congratulations. 802 01:04:09,827 --> 01:04:12,549 You've, you've paid your dues or something. 803 01:04:12,749 --> 01:04:16,852 And so much of it, you just have to go at, just do. 804 01:04:16,852 --> 01:04:19,530 And I think that's. 805 01:04:19,530 --> 01:04:26,195 If we all had to go through that, we'd probably have a lot more of the same. 806 01:04:26,195 --> 01:04:30,998 We'd be all trained the same way and do things the same way and everything would look the same. 807 01:04:31,178 --> 01:04:38,864 But because we don't, that's why we get like variety and like the stuff you do, even though we're talking about similar topics, it's different. 808 01:04:38,864 --> 01:04:44,628 The stuff like you mentioned, Dan Giffin's Ableton Producer podcast, like his is different. 809 01:04:44,628 --> 01:04:47,169 He's got a different feel to it. 810 01:04:48,742 --> 01:04:56,370 Like all the podcasts I have even if they're almost like the same genre they there's a different feeling it's just because the personalities 811 01:04:57,998 --> 01:04:59,965 And that's like our secret weapon. 812 01:04:59,965 --> 01:05:05,201 all, luckily, are unique and weird in our own ways. 813 01:05:05,482 --> 01:05:06,002 Yeah, man. 814 01:05:06,002 --> 01:05:14,056 And to your point around permission, I think I do think Andrew Wong's book is like, I mean, even if you never read it, I mean, the title is Make Your Own Rules. 815 01:05:14,216 --> 01:05:19,318 And when you read that book, I mean, I have so much respect for his his like his everything. 816 01:05:19,318 --> 01:05:27,042 I mean, it's crazy how hard he has worked and continues to work and what he's the way that he's developed. 817 01:05:27,522 --> 01:05:29,763 And his whole thing is, just that. 818 01:05:29,763 --> 01:05:31,644 Like there was no blueprint. 819 01:05:31,644 --> 01:05:35,379 There were people that told him he was crazy and wasting his time that he 820 01:05:35,379 --> 01:05:41,104 should have been like working at YouTube, helping creators grow their channel instead of just continuing to build his own. 821 01:05:41,185 --> 01:05:46,250 And so, you know, it's, is, it is, there is nothing harder. 822 01:05:46,250 --> 01:05:50,685 I, in my opinion, like it is really hard to recommit to that every day. 823 01:05:50,685 --> 01:05:52,316 You know, there's. 824 01:05:53,673 --> 01:05:59,215 I like Seth Godin's attitude about certain things and he says, you know, like he's like, make the decision once and you never have to make it again. 825 01:05:59,215 --> 01:06:00,296 You know what I mean? 826 01:06:00,296 --> 01:06:03,045 And so I think that's an interesting way to think about it. 827 01:06:03,045 --> 01:06:11,891 I also, again, I'm, you know, I keep beating this drum on like writing, but I do think writing is a good way to remind yourself of like, Hey, like I'm doing this, you know, 828 01:06:11,891 --> 01:06:16,163 whatever it is and like, and really, and really committing to that. 829 01:06:16,163 --> 01:06:23,747 And that it's, it's a hard thing to do because really what we're presented with through socials and stuff all the time is there's a lot of like these models. 830 01:06:23,747 --> 01:06:27,355 that are just implicit in what we're seeing in terms of the way that people behave and the way they do it. 831 01:06:27,355 --> 01:06:29,819 So we kind of feel like, we should do this thing. 832 01:06:30,426 --> 01:06:31,306 But. 833 01:06:31,782 --> 01:06:43,225 It is like the more that you, the more directly that you can connect with whatever it is that that makes you you is like, that's the shortest path, I think, to to making things 834 01:06:43,225 --> 01:06:46,256 that you're going to really feel good about and that other people will really recognize. 835 01:06:46,256 --> 01:06:56,575 Because my belief is that we do have a radar for when people are connecting with themselves, like when a song is really hitting, like we can tell when we watch somebody 836 01:06:56,575 --> 01:06:59,039 perform something like, like this person's in it. 837 01:06:59,039 --> 01:07:01,360 And that's the thing that clicks in us. 838 01:07:02,606 --> 01:07:04,006 Yeah. 839 01:07:04,306 --> 01:07:06,526 Yeah, it's not like a thing. 840 01:07:06,526 --> 01:07:16,186 Like you said, like this, the YouTube thing, the podcast thing, like those are the mediums, but the thing is whatever you're bringing to it. 841 01:07:16,186 --> 01:07:20,946 And a lot of people try to do the YouTube thing or the podcast thing. 842 01:07:21,246 --> 01:07:26,486 And a lot of those don't last because they're trying to emulate. 843 01:07:26,546 --> 01:07:28,986 And I can't be Andrew Huang. 844 01:07:28,986 --> 01:07:31,406 Like I know that, like I'm just not him. 845 01:07:31,406 --> 01:07:32,967 I mean, he's incredibly talented. 846 01:07:32,967 --> 01:07:35,047 His way of seeing things is different. 847 01:07:35,047 --> 01:07:37,369 Um, it's just not going to work. 848 01:07:37,369 --> 01:07:38,839 There's other guys I love. 849 01:07:38,839 --> 01:07:41,340 Um, Tim, you suck at producing. 850 01:07:41,340 --> 01:07:42,851 He's got his own angle. 851 01:07:42,851 --> 01:07:44,291 You know, his work. 852 01:07:44,652 --> 01:07:46,142 Um, yeah. 853 01:07:46,142 --> 01:07:47,513 Underbelly, right? 854 01:07:47,913 --> 01:07:48,673 Yeah. 855 01:07:48,673 --> 01:08:00,334 Like, I mean, I remember when he had like 30,000 subscribers, he came on the podcast and you know, was, and it was like much more homemade. 856 01:08:00,334 --> 01:08:03,516 But he had his snark and humor to it. 857 01:08:03,516 --> 01:08:06,989 kind of, yeah, it's different. 858 01:08:06,989 --> 01:08:07,789 I can't do that. 859 01:08:07,789 --> 01:08:09,620 I can't be him. 860 01:08:09,861 --> 01:08:12,902 And he's already doing it anyway. 861 01:08:14,924 --> 01:08:21,509 Finding your own thing is, it's the trick, I guess. 862 01:08:21,509 --> 01:08:24,220 I still feel like I need to figure that out too. 863 01:08:24,220 --> 01:08:26,902 I'm always like, what am I doing? 864 01:08:26,902 --> 01:08:29,634 What is this identity I have? 865 01:08:30,402 --> 01:08:37,124 What you said about Seth Godin makes me think of like identity, like to decide, like, I'm the kind of person that does this. 866 01:08:37,124 --> 01:08:39,024 And he's a writer every single day. 867 01:08:39,024 --> 01:08:41,415 puts out that blog, Seth.blog. 868 01:08:41,415 --> 01:08:42,746 I read it every day. 869 01:08:42,746 --> 01:08:45,146 He's always got something interesting. 870 01:08:45,266 --> 01:08:47,507 Um, and short and quick. 871 01:08:47,507 --> 01:08:49,868 And, but like, I couldn't be him either. 872 01:08:49,868 --> 01:08:54,619 Like, that's not the, it's not the point to like, I'm not going to do the Seth thing. 873 01:08:54,619 --> 01:08:58,710 like, I'm going to figure out what my thing is. 874 01:08:58,784 --> 01:09:02,484 Yeah, I mean somebody, so I couldn't recommend that people go listen to this dude. 875 01:09:02,484 --> 01:09:05,264 He's a New York guy, he goes by Nothing New. 876 01:09:05,764 --> 01:09:09,284 And he came on, I think it's like episode nine, right? 877 01:09:09,284 --> 01:09:12,064 I don't have as many episodes as you so it's easier to remember. 878 01:09:12,204 --> 01:09:21,084 But he said something to me that stuck with me and I've said to so many people just like in passing since then, which is just like, you you're born with a lane. 879 01:09:21,084 --> 01:09:23,164 Like everybody is given one. 880 01:09:23,164 --> 01:09:25,904 And we all spend so much time. 881 01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:27,961 trying to find another one. 882 01:09:27,961 --> 01:09:37,664 vacate our own lane that nobody else can fit in, that we already have from the beginning, and we spend a lot of time trying to get into other ones and be other things. 883 01:09:37,664 --> 01:09:47,348 Where it's like, if you can just accept and embrace the lane that you're given that you have from the beginning, again, I just think that's the shortest path to getting to a 884 01:09:47,348 --> 01:09:48,508 place where you can... 885 01:09:49,470 --> 01:09:57,231 really waste a lot less time and just worry, work on hitting that, striking that chord over and over again, you know? 886 01:09:59,662 --> 01:10:11,622 It's getting me to think, one of the things you wrote about, like things we can talk about in the little email there was like goals and defining success. 887 01:10:13,758 --> 01:10:18,621 I've never really had these goals too much. 888 01:10:18,621 --> 01:10:25,735 I've like kind of wound up where I am a lot of the times. 889 01:10:25,735 --> 01:10:33,669 like wound up making live packs, wound up Ableton certified trainer, wound up doing a podcast, you know? 890 01:10:35,570 --> 01:10:39,362 And so many people talk so much about like, need the goal, you need to that vision. 891 01:10:39,362 --> 01:10:42,644 I do think there is some value to that. 892 01:10:42,776 --> 01:10:49,831 But I'm also really starting to believe that sometimes like those goals are the problem. 893 01:10:49,831 --> 01:10:52,434 Like if I, I'm going to do the YouTube thing, right? 894 01:10:52,434 --> 01:10:54,845 I'm going to be like whoever Mr. 895 01:10:54,845 --> 01:10:55,301 Beast. 896 01:10:55,301 --> 01:11:03,743 I'm going to like in trying to figure that out, I would miss so many other things that might be a little more me. 897 01:11:03,743 --> 01:11:04,983 It might fit me a little better. 898 01:11:04,983 --> 01:11:06,005 I might enjoy better. 899 01:11:06,005 --> 01:11:08,716 It might be more true to who I am. 900 01:11:10,604 --> 01:11:15,430 I'm kind of curious what you think about all that and what you had in mind when you were talking about that. 901 01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:26,454 Because yeah, I'm wondering if it's more about just charging forward and seeing what you uncover. 902 01:11:26,602 --> 01:11:30,859 Yeah, well, mean, think the way that I think about it, I mean, there's so many ways, right? 903 01:11:30,859 --> 01:11:33,322 I do think it's important to like... 904 01:11:34,741 --> 01:11:36,822 to have them be conscious on some level. 905 01:11:36,822 --> 01:11:43,025 I'm very hesitant to tell people, to tell anybody, what their goals should be. 906 01:11:43,026 --> 01:11:47,648 But I think it's, again, it's just really more so about clarity. 907 01:11:47,648 --> 01:11:55,142 So I think, I would say for you, even the way that I described some of the things that I was talking about before, if I'm talking about podcasts, I'm talking about making music, 908 01:11:55,142 --> 01:11:57,033 and I'm talking about playing live. 909 01:11:57,067 --> 01:11:59,748 Those are things where like, those things aren't goals. 910 01:11:59,748 --> 01:12:03,839 Those are like ongoing, like projects with no end. 911 01:12:03,839 --> 01:12:11,701 But I think of them as like, those are like kind of the legs that I wanna support because I would argue, like I understand like they're not really goals necessarily like, I wanna 912 01:12:11,701 --> 01:12:14,001 hit like a certain level of something. 913 01:12:14,082 --> 01:12:21,084 However, the way that like, I frame what you just like just said to me about the way that you, what you've done is like. 914 01:12:21,448 --> 01:12:27,741 I think even if it were subconscious, you're like, I want to make stuff. 915 01:12:27,741 --> 01:12:29,242 I want to make these packs. 916 01:12:29,242 --> 01:12:32,053 And it started out, and you didn't say, I'm going to make these packs forever. 917 01:12:32,053 --> 01:12:33,594 But you're like, I want to make stuff. 918 01:12:33,594 --> 01:12:35,295 These packs kind of fall into that. 919 01:12:35,295 --> 01:12:42,978 And you also understood, because of the kind of guy that you are, that there's embedded in learning, inherent in all of that, that you're going to pick up. 920 01:12:42,978 --> 01:12:45,419 And all of that's going to accumulate over time. 921 01:12:45,419 --> 01:12:46,320 You know what I mean? 922 01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:51,422 And then I would argue that you've stacked it in a way that makes a lot of sense. 923 01:12:51,422 --> 01:12:57,446 The podcast and the YouTube channel, for instance, are just mediums to collect what you're already doing. 924 01:12:57,446 --> 01:13:03,150 You didn't really create like it's not to discount the amount of work because the quality of content you put out is very high. 925 01:13:03,150 --> 01:13:06,722 But it is to say that like you didn't create a separate stream of work. 926 01:13:06,722 --> 01:13:08,433 You're like, this is what I'm doing. 927 01:13:08,433 --> 01:13:12,742 I'm not just going to make videos and conversations about the other stuff that I'm doing. 928 01:13:12,742 --> 01:13:13,367 Do you know what I mean? 929 01:13:13,367 --> 01:13:17,279 And so it kind of becomes, in my opinion, like a way to document what's happening. 930 01:13:17,279 --> 01:13:21,282 And that's what I encourage people to do also is to like, because you can't do everything. 931 01:13:21,282 --> 01:13:23,484 What do you really like to do? 932 01:13:23,484 --> 01:13:35,331 Do that, you know, instead of like making content creation a separate job, like how can you be like, hey, like this is what I like to do and how can I repurpose this or use this 933 01:13:35,331 --> 01:13:36,512 as content? 934 01:13:36,512 --> 01:13:44,678 And again, this is where like things like efficiency are useful, you know, and understanding because this isn't in service of efficiency for efficiency sake. 935 01:13:44,678 --> 01:13:51,462 It's in service of you spending your time the way that you want to spend it, learning and doing the things that you want to do. 936 01:13:54,011 --> 01:14:04,737 Right, okay, so like as I think about it, my way of putting goals is more like I want to try to do something with music every day. 937 01:14:05,578 --> 01:14:06,559 Whatever that means. 938 01:14:06,559 --> 01:14:10,100 Or I want to try to exercise every day. 939 01:14:10,981 --> 01:14:18,146 If I make my goal, I need to have 50,000 subscribers on YouTube, I've failed. 940 01:14:18,146 --> 01:14:19,476 Right, I'm not there. 941 01:14:19,526 --> 01:14:23,851 or if it's going to be, want to lose this much weight or gain this much weight muscle. 942 01:14:23,851 --> 01:14:29,467 If I don't get to that, I've failed, even though I may have put in all the things. 943 01:14:29,467 --> 01:14:34,592 I might be doing the steps that will eventually get me to those types of things, but... 944 01:14:36,352 --> 01:14:42,367 the, if I let those be my benchmarks, I can get disappointed in it. 945 01:14:42,367 --> 01:14:48,623 And then sometimes you look at numbers and you thought, man, how come, you know, why can't it be more? 946 01:14:48,623 --> 01:14:50,264 And this person has so much of that. 947 01:14:50,264 --> 01:14:52,935 And you do the comparison thing. 948 01:14:53,657 --> 01:15:04,006 But when I think of the goal as more immediate, where I kind of get the feedback almost if I can, like every day, or at least every week, 949 01:15:04,534 --> 01:15:13,767 I feel kind of good about like with the podcast, more like every, it's kind of, it's still kind of a weekly thing because I try to get one released every week and then I try to make 950 01:15:13,767 --> 01:15:15,087 the clips for it the next week. 951 01:15:15,087 --> 01:15:17,898 That's kind of been my goal with it. 952 01:15:17,898 --> 01:15:33,602 And yeah, but like to get, you know, this many subscribers, I don't even hardly know how you figure out how many subscribers you have, but um that is so much less in my control. 953 01:15:35,094 --> 01:15:38,315 Like that that is exactly what I'm thinking the whole time you're saying this right? 954 01:15:38,315 --> 01:15:39,246 It's like 955 01:15:39,721 --> 01:15:43,713 Liz Gilbert, she wrote like, pray love big magic, things like that. 956 01:15:43,713 --> 01:15:45,544 She said something that I was listening to her. 957 01:15:45,544 --> 01:15:48,365 was on a, love Mike, big Lee is podcasts working it out. 958 01:15:48,365 --> 01:15:49,165 So good. 959 01:15:49,165 --> 01:15:53,747 But she, their interview, she was on with him recently was, was great. 960 01:15:53,747 --> 01:16:00,700 And she dropped this line that was like, you have the right to your work, but not like you have the right to your labor, but not the fruits of your labor. 961 01:16:00,700 --> 01:16:01,000 Right. 962 01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:05,462 And so, and it comes back to kind of what we saying too, about like the permission and the podcast stuff. 963 01:16:05,462 --> 01:16:10,094 It's like, do you want to like be somebody like you like the idea of having. 964 01:16:10,534 --> 01:16:15,018 like recognition or do you want to actually do the project? 965 01:16:15,018 --> 01:16:15,759 You know what I mean? 966 01:16:15,759 --> 01:16:25,046 Because you can control whether or not you do the project within whatever the bounds of your life are, but you do not get to control like whether or not it's success. 967 01:16:25,046 --> 01:16:30,410 And Chris Rock has a similar line where he's like, you cannot control whether or not it's a success. 968 01:16:30,410 --> 01:16:32,471 You can make sure it's good. 969 01:16:34,238 --> 01:16:40,775 And I, and so I try to like, to everybody that like, I know I'm always just like, I totally get it. 970 01:16:40,775 --> 01:16:42,742 And like, that's something that comes up for me in writing a lot. 971 01:16:42,742 --> 01:16:47,461 I'm like, Hey, where's that line between what I can control and what I can't control? 972 01:16:47,461 --> 01:16:48,703 Thoughts, words, actions. 973 01:16:48,703 --> 01:16:50,945 After that, it's, it's up to everybody. 974 01:16:50,945 --> 01:16:56,891 It's, up to somebody else, you know, or things that I can't really quantify or organize. 975 01:16:56,891 --> 01:16:57,711 So 976 01:16:58,376 --> 01:17:03,341 And again, we get, you wake up with like a fixed quantity of energy every day, right? 977 01:17:03,341 --> 01:17:05,863 All you're doing is expending it throughout the day. 978 01:17:05,863 --> 01:17:15,372 So all the time that you spend expanding it on things that you really cannot influence in any way, you're only, you're now making it that much harder to do anything else to 979 01:17:15,372 --> 01:17:18,755 everything that you do, you're not doing with less than you can do it with. 980 01:17:18,755 --> 01:17:19,595 So 981 01:17:20,062 --> 01:17:25,741 The feeling that I have about it is just like, you can't control whether or not it's a success. 982 01:17:25,741 --> 01:17:27,712 You can't control whether it's good. 983 01:17:27,712 --> 01:17:35,175 And if it's good, that's like the best, as far as I know, that's the best you can do to increase the probability of success. 984 01:17:36,064 --> 01:17:36,424 Right. 985 01:17:36,424 --> 01:17:39,217 I like that way of thinking the fixed energy. 986 01:17:41,441 --> 01:17:49,594 because yeah, like it's easy to just burn the energy worrying about things that, you know, don't matter. 987 01:17:49,594 --> 01:17:54,534 It's like you're in a video game and your energy bar is like going down for no reason. 988 01:17:54,534 --> 01:18:01,168 I don't mean to make it like it's not so bleak, but like in a way it's just like, you're, you know, your energy level and your moods will fluctuate throughout the day. 989 01:18:01,168 --> 01:18:04,501 But generally speaking, you know, you're just getting more tired as the day goes on. 990 01:18:04,501 --> 01:18:06,432 So just being aware of that. 991 01:18:06,432 --> 01:18:06,902 Yeah. 992 01:18:06,902 --> 01:18:12,566 And so, and what, you know, the only thing you can really do to make that better is to, you know, take your recovery more seriously. 993 01:18:12,566 --> 01:18:15,307 But that's like a whole nother thing, you know, but. 994 01:18:15,847 --> 01:18:21,632 But I could apply that to myself and the way I consume content. 995 01:18:21,712 --> 01:18:31,590 You know, I love to keep track of what's going on, what's new, what's the news, what's the new updates and what plugins and you know, all this stuff, super booth just happened. 996 01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:35,343 It's like, man, all this new stuff's coming out and you read it. 997 01:18:35,343 --> 01:18:40,027 Uh, and I often do that before I start making my music. 998 01:18:40,027 --> 01:18:43,550 Um, but that is like, 999 01:18:43,710 --> 01:18:45,711 a depletion of energy. 1000 01:18:45,711 --> 01:18:57,198 I'd be much better off doing that as I'm like trying to stay awake in bed or you know in my final hours where my energy is like practically worthless anyway instead of when I'm 1001 01:18:57,198 --> 01:18:58,238 fresh. 1002 01:18:58,633 --> 01:19:06,436 but I know, like, because a while back, you had told me that you had read like the four hour work week and I never read that book. 1003 01:19:06,836 --> 01:19:14,099 But like recently he dropped like a little audio portion of it and I was and so I listened to a little bit of it like a couple of weeks ago for the first time. 1004 01:19:14,099 --> 01:19:20,062 And so it really hit me because it made me realize, I mean, part of why I started a podcast was because like I really enjoy them. 1005 01:19:20,062 --> 01:19:22,003 I was listening to so many right. 1006 01:19:22,003 --> 01:19:23,483 Arguably too many. 1007 01:19:23,663 --> 01:19:24,544 But. 1008 01:19:26,344 --> 01:19:30,516 It made me think of basically this idea of just how much information we consume, right? 1009 01:19:30,516 --> 01:19:33,467 You're like, there's just so much stuff happening. 1010 01:19:33,668 --> 01:19:40,451 And I think it made me realize like how much less I listen, I have been listening to music. 1011 01:19:40,532 --> 01:19:47,075 And so his thing was like, know, in this thing was like, cut yourself off from like information, period, right? 1012 01:19:47,075 --> 01:19:47,775 But music. 1013 01:19:47,775 --> 01:19:49,832 information diet, right? 1014 01:19:50,249 --> 01:19:50,730 exactly. 1015 01:19:50,730 --> 01:19:55,679 then music though was like unlimited, like allowed in an unlimited quantity. 1016 01:19:55,679 --> 01:19:56,581 And I was like, wow. 1017 01:19:56,581 --> 01:19:59,635 And I was like, and I did that last week and I was like. 1018 01:20:00,043 --> 01:20:10,756 I'm like, man, like the amount of energy that I am taking in podcasts stuff, making notes about it or like, or like, you know, thinking through these things, trying to follow these 1019 01:20:10,756 --> 01:20:18,619 conversations and thinking about whatever these ideas are, how much that actually does in a pretty insidious way, like require energy. 1020 01:20:18,619 --> 01:20:24,960 And you think it doesn't cause it's sort of this like, I also think it's like kind of a little weird because it's, like infotainment. 1021 01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:29,762 It's not necessarily like purely like real education necessarily. 1022 01:20:30,072 --> 01:20:37,566 And it's and it's and it's and so I've realized I'm like, wow, like this is I think this is I was like, I think podcasts are actually a form of resistance for me. 1023 01:20:37,566 --> 01:20:39,447 Like, and I need to actually dial this down. 1024 01:20:39,447 --> 01:20:48,092 And so I'm now like rat like coming back up trying to be more intentional about what I listen to, how much in a given day I allow myself to listen to it. 1025 01:20:48,092 --> 01:20:57,277 And honestly, like just this past week of just listening to like hours of music like throughout the day, whether it's like super like super attentively or just in the 1026 01:20:57,277 --> 01:21:00,028 background, the way that just like even like the little 1027 01:21:00,028 --> 01:21:04,473 bar sketches I've made in the last week I'm like wow this is different you know so 1028 01:21:04,786 --> 01:21:08,739 It's just been really a good reminder of like stuff I already knew that I just really got away from. 1029 01:21:08,739 --> 01:21:12,662 And I'm like, wow, it is like, I don't need all of that stuff. 1030 01:21:12,662 --> 01:21:13,523 You know what I mean? 1031 01:21:13,523 --> 01:21:19,201 And I think when I started the podcast too, it's like, I'm always like, now I'm listening to podcasts differently. 1032 01:21:19,201 --> 01:21:20,908 I imagine it happens to you too. 1033 01:21:20,908 --> 01:21:26,673 pay more attention to the host probably than I did before because I'm trying to figure out, okay, how can I be a better host? 1034 01:21:26,673 --> 01:21:28,194 What are good questions? 1035 01:21:28,194 --> 01:21:30,475 You know, what are interesting little things to. 1036 01:21:31,381 --> 01:21:34,942 to make it more me or whatever it happens to be, you know? 1037 01:21:35,043 --> 01:21:38,654 And so, but that has come at the cost of my music, right? 1038 01:21:38,654 --> 01:21:48,869 And so back to the original thing and the identity we were talking about, that's fine if I wanna just be the podcaster, but if I wanna be the musician that has a podcast, let's 1039 01:21:48,869 --> 01:21:53,951 rework like my diet, because it's essentially diet is the way that I think about it, what you're taking in. 1040 01:21:53,951 --> 01:22:01,364 And if I'm taking in more podcasts and education and all that stuff, more than I am the music, 1041 01:22:01,364 --> 01:22:06,798 It doesn't, shouldn't be surprising that my output is more podcast focused. 1042 01:22:06,798 --> 01:22:08,738 Yeah, that's a good point. 1043 01:22:09,998 --> 01:22:22,578 Yeah, cause we're no shortage of information and every single platform out there is vying for your attention, trying to make you think it's important and care about it. 1044 01:22:23,778 --> 01:22:29,978 And whether it's news, whether it's, like you said, the fun stuff, the podcast, I want to hear what this artist has to say. 1045 01:22:29,978 --> 01:22:31,318 I want to hear what they have to say. 1046 01:22:31,318 --> 01:22:32,258 And this, oh, cool. 1047 01:22:32,258 --> 01:22:34,078 That'd be fun to listen to. 1048 01:22:34,218 --> 01:22:35,478 It is. 1049 01:22:36,270 --> 01:22:39,250 part of your diet. 1050 01:22:39,250 --> 01:22:40,990 I do it a lot. 1051 01:22:41,810 --> 01:22:51,570 I have a lot of things I like to follow, lot of YouTubers I like to keep up with, and all kinds of stuff that does cut into it. 1052 01:22:51,650 --> 01:22:57,230 I think one thing that works for me nicely is having a kind of longer commute to work. 1053 01:22:57,230 --> 01:23:01,090 It's like a 40 minute or so commute each way. 1054 01:23:01,170 --> 01:23:04,010 So I can consume in that amount of time. 1055 01:23:05,452 --> 01:23:11,609 do my exercises, I tend to put on like a YouTube video or a couple of them to catch up. 1056 01:23:11,811 --> 01:23:13,182 But that's probably all I need. 1057 01:23:13,182 --> 01:23:21,844 the other amount of hours, who knows per day probably, like is probably excessive. 1058 01:23:21,844 --> 01:23:28,786 Yeah, that's the one piece where I'm a little bit critical of myself right now where I need to like, because you are what you eat, you know what I mean? 1059 01:23:28,786 --> 01:23:38,750 And so I think it is, and there is such a thing as like gluttony when it comes to like this stuff, but it just doesn't hit you the same way because like, you know, it's less 1060 01:23:38,750 --> 01:23:41,191 like eating a giant meal. 1061 01:23:41,851 --> 01:23:44,122 So yeah, I don't know, man. 1062 01:23:44,122 --> 01:23:52,702 like the super booth stuff, I've found myself on Sweetwater a few more times than normal, probably. 1063 01:23:52,702 --> 01:23:56,726 I really buy anything, but yeah, it's kind of like that. 1064 01:23:56,726 --> 01:23:57,546 Yeah. 1065 01:23:57,546 --> 01:24:03,508 It's, it's, um, yeah, like a convention synthesis music production stuff. 1066 01:24:04,029 --> 01:24:04,949 Yeah. 1067 01:24:06,769 --> 01:24:08,222 I don't know if that's true. 1068 01:24:08,222 --> 01:24:09,350 Um, 1069 01:24:10,988 --> 01:24:13,347 like Ableton's there. 1070 01:24:15,374 --> 01:24:20,934 teenage engineering, like some of the companies that I'm into and some like a lot more boutique stuff. 1071 01:24:21,374 --> 01:24:23,814 uh, yeah, that's interesting. 1072 01:24:23,814 --> 01:24:25,414 You know, it's an industry thing. 1073 01:24:25,414 --> 01:24:34,234 if it was in this country, I might try to go just to meet people and network a little and learn and stuff. 1074 01:24:35,074 --> 01:24:44,990 But in seeing like new stuff, new stuff, new stuff, it does seep into you a little bit and make you say like, Oh, I wonder if I should have some new stuff too. 1075 01:24:44,990 --> 01:24:45,861 Yeah. 1076 01:24:47,108 --> 01:24:51,821 So this is, this is a weird thing if you want to try is like. 1077 01:24:53,074 --> 01:24:57,726 Every time you think about buying something, like create a spreadsheet or have a piece of paper or whatever. 1078 01:24:57,726 --> 01:25:06,340 And every time you think about buying something for a week, just, just try this, just write it down and every single thing, bigger, big or small, and just see like, if you're 1079 01:25:06,340 --> 01:25:11,433 not looking at it, et cetera, et cetera, like how much you actually do think you want to need those things. 1080 01:25:11,433 --> 01:25:13,153 Cause maybe some of me really do. 1081 01:25:13,173 --> 01:25:17,235 And a lot of like, I felt, but a lot of times you're like, wait, like, you know, I get it. 1082 01:25:17,235 --> 01:25:17,589 It's cool. 1083 01:25:17,589 --> 01:25:20,117 It's because I'm seeing these ads, but do I really want this thing? 1084 01:25:20,117 --> 01:25:23,059 You know, was it something I was thinking about before? 1085 01:25:23,059 --> 01:25:28,239 uh maybe like a week or two buffer between clicking the button. 1086 01:25:28,239 --> 01:25:29,060 too easy to buy. 1087 01:25:29,060 --> 01:25:29,590 That's the thing. 1088 01:25:29,590 --> 01:25:30,740 The friction is too low. 1089 01:25:30,740 --> 01:25:31,660 It's too easy. 1090 01:25:31,660 --> 01:25:32,620 Yeah. 1091 01:25:32,721 --> 01:25:33,261 Yeah. 1092 01:25:33,261 --> 01:25:34,661 And it can arrive so quickly. 1093 01:25:34,661 --> 01:25:37,902 You're like, you could see it and have it so fast that it is. 1094 01:25:37,962 --> 01:25:38,532 Yeah, man. 1095 01:25:38,532 --> 01:25:40,913 I mean, the gear is, I mean, it's so fun, though. 1096 01:25:40,913 --> 01:25:41,523 I mean, I get it. 1097 01:25:41,523 --> 01:25:43,553 And you can use it for real things, you know? 1098 01:25:43,553 --> 01:25:46,186 So I mean, so I get it. 1099 01:25:46,186 --> 01:25:53,648 Yeah, I'm trying to really dig into stuff I already have that I haven't explored as much because there's a ton of it. 1100 01:25:53,809 --> 01:26:04,802 And, know, with my music production club, we do like this monthly music mission and part of the May monthly music mission was use something you haven't given enough time to. 1101 01:26:04,802 --> 01:26:07,232 Maybe it's a plugin, maybe it's samples. 1102 01:26:07,246 --> 01:26:12,854 I think that's part of the kind of challenge of this month is to. 1103 01:26:13,306 --> 01:26:14,104 Yeah. 1104 01:26:14,104 --> 01:26:17,726 dig into something that maybe you haven't explored enough. 1105 01:26:17,726 --> 01:26:19,886 Yeah, that's really cool. 1106 01:26:19,886 --> 01:26:22,458 Yeah, I'm trying to, yeah, man. 1107 01:26:22,458 --> 01:26:32,694 I'm trying to do a similar thing where I'm just like, I want to like kind of almost decide on a palette of sounds and just use them until I get really, because it's just like, you 1108 01:26:32,694 --> 01:26:38,506 know how it is, like just like scrolling through trying to find like the perfect patch or something. 1109 01:26:38,506 --> 01:26:41,127 And I'm like, when I think about how much. 1110 01:26:43,134 --> 01:26:50,826 like people have a sound because they have actually committed to a palette, you know, is like such a powerful thing and they don't spend every time trying to do it. 1111 01:26:50,826 --> 01:26:59,064 And I think, especially early on, I suffered from like, all right, well, I've used these drums, so can't use these drum samples anymore, you know, where I'm like, I don't know if 1112 01:26:59,064 --> 01:27:08,539 really, but you know, like ninth wonder, like the producer for like the, all like the little brother stuff, like he used the same snare drum and like everything, you know, and 1113 01:27:08,539 --> 01:27:12,990 so many, it's just like, so many of these people that we like love and respect as, 1114 01:27:13,450 --> 01:27:16,302 As solid like they have their thing, you know what I mean? 1115 01:27:16,302 --> 01:27:25,900 I think it from a productivity standpoint, too also just removes like those decisions you have to make So I do think there is something like how many plugins I have I couldn't even 1116 01:27:25,900 --> 01:27:35,007 tell you how many I have that I don't use on a regular basis and how I'm like trying to like just like what are the ones gonna be that'll be like My first go-to thing and if I 1117 01:27:35,007 --> 01:27:41,952 really can't make it happen with that thing and I'll use something else, you know That's like the place I'd like to get to but I'm not there 1118 01:27:42,702 --> 01:27:53,202 Yeah, coming from a band background might help me with this a little bit because I don't know if you can tell there is a drum set behind me. 1119 01:27:53,822 --> 01:27:59,261 Those are the drums, you know, like that's the drums we're going to play with in the band. 1120 01:27:59,422 --> 01:28:02,102 And that's my guitar amp over here. 1121 01:28:02,102 --> 01:28:09,842 And that's, you know, I do have a couple of guitars to choose from, but I'm kind of, you know, in a zone with the Telecaster right now. 1122 01:28:09,842 --> 01:28:11,142 So that's what I'm using. 1123 01:28:11,980 --> 01:28:16,232 And when we play, it's like, that's our palette. 1124 01:28:16,232 --> 01:28:18,454 We don't think about it too much. 1125 01:28:18,454 --> 01:28:25,357 And it's funny when we start thinking about it, when we start saying like, you know, like, I like the drums kind of dead. 1126 01:28:25,357 --> 01:28:29,450 And when I start getting like, Hey, can we like, maybe like muffle them a little bit? 1127 01:28:29,450 --> 01:28:31,741 And then everything slows down, right? 1128 01:28:31,741 --> 01:28:36,663 Like now we're not playing and we're wondering if it's okay now. 1129 01:28:37,304 --> 01:28:40,425 And that's kind of like searching through all your presets. 1130 01:28:41,538 --> 01:28:51,546 And there's, you know, how many albums have been made where that's the kit, you know, that's every single song was played on the same drum kit or same guitar. 1131 01:28:51,546 --> 01:28:54,899 And it doesn't seem weird on that. 1132 01:28:54,899 --> 01:29:00,833 The same piano was used on every song that maybe like Elton John recorded or something. 1133 01:29:01,214 --> 01:29:10,111 But something about now with the computer and that we have all the access to all the stuff, we feel like I shouldn't use that snare again. 1134 01:29:10,111 --> 01:29:11,116 Cause you know, I 1135 01:29:11,116 --> 01:29:12,647 I used it in another song. 1136 01:29:12,647 --> 01:29:17,899 But funnily enough, if you use it in the same song, it might give your album some cohesion. 1137 01:29:17,899 --> 01:29:28,674 It'd be, it's almost like a throwback, like, these are connected and it inhabits the same sonic space as some of the other songs. 1138 01:29:29,152 --> 01:29:36,002 I've never heard somebody listen to all the Krungman albums and go, you know what, I wish they would just play a different drum kit. 1139 01:29:36,492 --> 01:29:39,028 Or I wish you would play not a strat. 1140 01:29:39,028 --> 01:29:41,150 I've never heard anybody say that. 1141 01:29:42,073 --> 01:29:43,668 And I do think it is funny. 1142 01:29:43,668 --> 01:29:46,722 players have made the whole careers on certain guitars. 1143 01:29:46,722 --> 01:29:49,714 Like what do you picture Jimi Hendrix playing? 1144 01:29:50,336 --> 01:29:51,796 Strat, right? 1145 01:29:52,578 --> 01:29:53,439 Yeah. 1146 01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:55,206 It's like why everyone got a strat. 1147 01:29:55,206 --> 01:29:56,184 yeah, exactly. 1148 01:29:56,184 --> 01:29:57,648 I mean, and they sound great, man. 1149 01:29:57,648 --> 01:29:58,929 I I love the sounds of them. 1150 01:29:58,929 --> 01:30:00,831 But so I mean, yeah, it is. 1151 01:30:00,831 --> 01:30:07,916 do think it's like it does connect to what we're talking about before in terms of just like don't make decisions or don't put yourself in a position to make decisions you don't 1152 01:30:07,916 --> 01:30:12,800 really need to make, you know, and like just kind of commit to stuff and a lot can happen. 1153 01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:16,143 And because of the world that we're in with all this digital stuff, I you can always change it later. 1154 01:30:16,143 --> 01:30:17,343 So it's just like. 1155 01:30:21,912 --> 01:30:26,897 Yeah man, it's like we invent problems for ourselves sometimes. 1156 01:30:28,222 --> 01:30:30,161 No, me never man, never. 1157 01:30:32,270 --> 01:30:33,021 But it's hard. 1158 01:30:33,021 --> 01:30:35,697 I'm glad it's hard for you because that means I'm not weird. 1159 01:30:35,697 --> 01:30:37,479 Sorry you have to go through it too. 1160 01:30:37,888 --> 01:30:43,714 I don't know man, I think if anybody tells you it's not hard, just, they're either not in it or they're just lying. 1161 01:30:45,551 --> 01:30:47,262 Without that though, there's no glory. 1162 01:30:47,262 --> 01:30:48,884 There's no satisfaction in it, right? 1163 01:30:48,884 --> 01:31:00,177 Because I mean, we have the proof of that is like, you could have AI generate music for you now and you can just be clicking buttons and outputting like crazy. 1164 01:31:00,177 --> 01:31:02,749 You could be so prolific that way, right? 1165 01:31:04,064 --> 01:31:06,852 That's actually a great way to extrapolate that, just productivity. 1166 01:31:06,852 --> 01:31:09,900 Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can have a bunch of songs, you know, but. 1167 01:31:09,900 --> 01:31:12,331 Yeah, yeah, that could be the answer. 1168 01:31:12,331 --> 01:31:15,793 So there's a reason why we go through it. 1169 01:31:15,793 --> 01:31:22,517 You know, it's fun, it's exciting, it's an adventure and it does have a little pain every once in a while. 1170 01:31:28,012 --> 01:31:31,885 Yeah, right, yeah, that's applies to exercise, right? 1171 01:31:31,885 --> 01:31:37,450 Like if you're not pushing yourself, you're not growing, you're not changing. 1172 01:31:37,957 --> 01:31:43,659 I do think it's like that balance is like, what is the right, like rate at which to push yourself, right? 1173 01:31:43,659 --> 01:31:51,211 Because we're like, we're talking about before it's like, you take off, if you take on too much at once, or you take on what's beyond whatever your current like ability level is, 1174 01:31:51,211 --> 01:31:56,302 your threshold is like, you you crumble under that and there's no shame in being where you're, where you're at. 1175 01:31:56,302 --> 01:31:57,383 You know what I mean? 1176 01:31:57,383 --> 01:32:02,004 And so just like, you can lift what you can lift, you know? 1177 01:32:02,796 --> 01:32:03,626 Yeah. 1178 01:32:03,787 --> 01:32:08,911 That's what the author of that book, Flow, whose name I would not be able to pronounce. 1179 01:32:09,332 --> 01:32:20,512 but that's what he says, you know, it's about, we get into flow when we are challenged, not where it's impossible, but it's not easy either. 1180 01:32:20,512 --> 01:32:22,184 When it's easy, we get bored. 1181 01:32:22,184 --> 01:32:29,410 But when the challenge is sort of just right, where sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't, that's... 1182 01:32:29,516 --> 01:32:33,822 where we can tap into that feeling and kind of get lost in the work. 1183 01:32:33,940 --> 01:32:34,831 Yeah, I love that man. 1184 01:32:34,831 --> 01:32:38,433 Tennis and ping pong is the great example for that, right? 1185 01:32:38,433 --> 01:32:42,325 You know what it's like to play somebody way better than you or way worse than you? 1186 01:32:42,325 --> 01:32:43,746 It's not fun. 1187 01:32:43,746 --> 01:32:49,549 But when you have somebody who can maybe beat you or you can maybe beat them, that's right where you want to be. 1188 01:32:50,088 --> 01:32:51,550 Right on that edge. 1189 01:32:52,250 --> 01:32:53,271 Yeah. 1190 01:32:54,212 --> 01:32:55,152 Yeah. 1191 01:32:55,264 --> 01:32:56,264 Exactly. 1192 01:32:56,264 --> 01:32:58,004 Yeah, I think that's actually a great reminder, man. 1193 01:32:58,004 --> 01:33:06,724 Yeah, that's really cool about how to find that, what is a really hard thing to quantify, but you can kind of feel when you're in that space where you're on the border of, I don't 1194 01:33:06,724 --> 01:33:08,164 know if I'm gonna win or lose this game. 1195 01:33:08,164 --> 01:33:15,044 That's kind of where you wanna be, I think, if you're trying to expand or grow an ability or a skill in some way. 1196 01:33:15,502 --> 01:33:23,982 Yeah, I heard David Bowie saying, want to be kind of like, like the water's like almost up to here. 1197 01:33:23,982 --> 01:33:30,602 And you're like, you know, if it's too easy, you're not challenging yourself artistically. 1198 01:33:30,602 --> 01:33:36,542 not, you want to kind of be a little bit out to sea. 1199 01:33:36,949 --> 01:33:37,589 Yeah, man. 1200 01:33:37,589 --> 01:33:44,522 mean, that guy, that's a, it's, I don't know what, how guys like that or what, what was going through their minds to expand. 1201 01:33:44,522 --> 01:33:49,995 Cause it's like, that's in a way where I think about like pushing and expanding and growing. 1202 01:33:49,995 --> 01:33:57,278 think a lot of it in like kind of technical ways, like, know, how can I maybe play something with more proficiency or something like that? 1203 01:33:57,538 --> 01:33:59,539 Or how can I mix something better? 1204 01:33:59,539 --> 01:34:01,340 But that idea of like, 1205 01:34:01,874 --> 01:34:03,755 expanding artistic expression. 1206 01:34:03,755 --> 01:34:07,528 That's like a hard thing to wrap my head around. 1207 01:34:07,528 --> 01:34:16,525 And for guys like him, it's like, man, like, you know, him and like David Byrne and guys like that, you know, it's like, wow, like they did have an idea of like how to push 1208 01:34:16,525 --> 01:34:18,376 themselves in that way. 1209 01:34:18,496 --> 01:34:23,479 That's really interesting and I think harder to teach or translate. 1210 01:34:24,494 --> 01:34:33,658 Yeah, I think a lot of it is a lot of output and not really worrying about it too much. 1211 01:34:34,074 --> 01:34:40,181 I both of those guys I love and both of them have music I don't ever want to listen to. 1212 01:34:40,841 --> 01:34:47,844 know, like, I mean, some of it is like I would take on a desert island and some of it I don't ever need to hear again. 1213 01:34:48,164 --> 01:34:52,606 So it wasn't, all of it wasn't at 1214 01:34:52,972 --> 01:35:04,931 whatever my particular preference is, or probably the same for them, you know, but they kept pushing, kept trying to find stuff and kept going and not really too concerned, I 1215 01:35:04,931 --> 01:35:07,403 think sometimes about how it would be received. 1216 01:35:07,403 --> 01:35:19,072 And I think of like some of the risks they took, like when you're doing that well, to just take these wild left turns and just be like, that's what I'm doing. 1217 01:35:19,134 --> 01:35:21,438 Yeah, mean, I guess you could say the same thing about miles, right? 1218 01:35:21,438 --> 01:35:23,450 It's like a similar kind of thing. 1219 01:35:23,854 --> 01:35:26,656 A lot of the greats have that in common, right? 1220 01:35:26,801 --> 01:35:35,709 And I think, I mean, and that's, and that is a great example, like at the top of all of this, which is like those, that is not an efficiency or productivity based mindset. 1221 01:35:35,709 --> 01:35:37,531 It's like a curiosity. 1222 01:35:37,631 --> 01:35:41,955 What kind of weird place can I find myself in that I've never been to before? 1223 01:35:43,182 --> 01:35:44,502 Yeah. 1224 01:35:44,562 --> 01:35:45,082 Yeah. 1225 01:35:45,082 --> 01:35:57,762 Like if the Beatles, like all their output happens so fast, really like 1963 to 1970 is like their whole career and how many crazy directions they went. 1226 01:35:58,002 --> 01:36:07,482 If they were trying to recreate, like, She Loves You for like two years before they came out with like a new album instead of doing like three a year, right? 1227 01:36:07,702 --> 01:36:11,682 You know, they never would have got to those places. 1228 01:36:14,018 --> 01:36:20,498 They just, they were kind of like always chasing new, something different. 1229 01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:23,760 And yeah, somehow at all. 1230 01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:27,620 Yeah, I mean, and I mean, I'm a, as you know, I'm also a big fan. 1231 01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:37,760 And yeah, it is wild when you think about those records like lined up next to each other and how different and individual each of them are over time. 1232 01:36:38,420 --> 01:36:39,360 Yeah. 1233 01:36:39,797 --> 01:36:45,101 Sometimes not even a year apart, just man. 1234 01:36:45,514 --> 01:36:48,804 Yeah, those guys, I mean, that's why they are who they are, man. 1235 01:36:48,804 --> 01:36:50,088 I that's why we still talk about them. 1236 01:36:50,088 --> 01:36:52,057 I mean, it's cool stuff. 1237 01:36:52,057 --> 01:36:54,411 I mean, you can put that on any time and it sounds good. 1238 01:36:55,566 --> 01:37:03,031 Hmm, yeah, that's if maybe there's a goal for me, would be that kind of thing. 1239 01:37:03,312 --> 01:37:11,638 Just try to be as prolific and not worried about it as possible. 1240 01:37:11,860 --> 01:37:15,151 Yeah, mean, that's the game right there, man. 1241 01:37:15,151 --> 01:37:18,552 mean, I think that's kind of, I think what's underneath it, right? 1242 01:37:18,552 --> 01:37:23,694 It's like, it's not that you don't have the technology or the artistic or technical ability to do it. 1243 01:37:23,694 --> 01:37:24,704 You can. 1244 01:37:24,704 --> 01:37:31,687 It does become more about like, how do you create the conditions for yourself to kind of flourish and allow that to happen? 1245 01:37:33,207 --> 01:37:35,308 Because we don't know where ideas come from. 1246 01:37:36,127 --> 01:37:38,568 Let me just see when you started. 1247 01:37:38,568 --> 01:37:42,929 was November, October, 2023, right? 1248 01:37:43,130 --> 01:37:51,643 And if I'm just like kind of glancing, I notice you don't number every episode, but you must have over 50 here, right? 1249 01:37:51,643 --> 01:37:54,189 Of producer head. 1250 01:37:54,189 --> 01:38:00,496 because I think, you know, I've been doing because like, I don't, and this is uh a, Right. 1251 01:38:00,496 --> 01:38:00,887 Yeah. 1252 01:38:00,887 --> 01:38:04,180 Well, no, but also like I was splitting some of the longer ones into two parts. 1253 01:38:04,180 --> 01:38:06,162 And so it makes some of the episodes seem like double. 1254 01:38:06,162 --> 01:38:08,664 um 1255 01:38:09,159 --> 01:38:12,580 hours and hours, lots of material, right? 1256 01:38:12,580 --> 01:38:18,692 Like when you first started, bet you this was my experience. 1257 01:38:18,692 --> 01:38:23,583 was like, my God, I just put out something and I'm talking for like, you know, 20 minutes. 1258 01:38:23,583 --> 01:38:25,954 It's like, Oh man, like people are going to hear it. 1259 01:38:25,954 --> 01:38:32,146 And it's like, you feel like your entire, you have to like make your grand statement, right? 1260 01:38:32,146 --> 01:38:33,896 This is the one thing I put out. 1261 01:38:33,934 --> 01:38:37,194 And this is who I'm, this is what I'm gonna be judged by. 1262 01:38:37,194 --> 01:38:41,074 This is the image I'm gonna be forged out of. 1263 01:38:41,534 --> 01:38:55,314 But as I've gotten further and further, there's just like, like I've just polluted the internet with so much stuff that it's like, you don't know what people are gonna pick up 1264 01:38:55,314 --> 01:39:02,314 on it what they're gonna use to identify you that you don't even, you can't even worry about it. 1265 01:39:02,314 --> 01:39:03,834 There's nothing to even. 1266 01:39:04,226 --> 01:39:11,073 I wonder if you get that feeling of where it's just, I'm just putting stuff out now, just going. 1267 01:39:11,073 --> 01:39:12,208 I'm off to the races. 1268 01:39:12,208 --> 01:39:16,619 take a second to call you out for like the subtle self-deprecation and saying that you've polluted the internet. 1269 01:39:16,619 --> 01:39:19,006 I think you that's far from what you've done. 1270 01:39:19,027 --> 01:39:20,407 the. 1271 01:39:25,154 --> 01:39:29,946 Yeah, no, no, I totally hear you, oh 1272 01:39:29,946 --> 01:39:32,105 I have no idea what's going to come up. 1273 01:39:32,105 --> 01:39:34,537 It's not like this one thing or anything. 1274 01:39:34,566 --> 01:39:38,480 I don't think I've really ever had anything that's gone viral. 1275 01:39:38,480 --> 01:39:41,862 So it's not like this is the identifying thing. 1276 01:39:42,303 --> 01:39:44,264 I find that really freeing. 1277 01:39:44,264 --> 01:39:45,285 Same thing with music. 1278 01:39:45,285 --> 01:39:46,638 There's so many... 1279 01:39:46,638 --> 01:39:53,258 things out that I've done that you're not going to be able to say, oh, this is like your thing. 1280 01:39:53,978 --> 01:40:02,718 And that's the bonus of like working and working and going is like, there's just so much to. 1281 01:40:04,256 --> 01:40:08,356 I think, mean, I keep bringing it up, but like the Andrew Wong thing, like making your own rules. 1282 01:40:08,356 --> 01:40:11,916 just sort of like that idea of like, Hey, like, this is just what I want to do. 1283 01:40:11,916 --> 01:40:12,295 You know what mean? 1284 01:40:12,295 --> 01:40:16,536 I don't really have like a good reason why it's just like what I want to do. 1285 01:40:16,756 --> 01:40:21,156 And so I was just like, if that's really what I want to do, then what do I have to like lose by trying it out? 1286 01:40:21,156 --> 01:40:21,376 Right. 1287 01:40:21,376 --> 01:40:22,676 Cause I can always quit. 1288 01:40:22,676 --> 01:40:23,796 Like that's easy. 1289 01:40:23,796 --> 01:40:24,156 Right. 1290 01:40:24,156 --> 01:40:34,196 If it's not going well, or I don't like doing it, I can, I can quit, but it's been, even if nobody listens to the conversations like we're talking about, I'm like, I learned 1291 01:40:34,196 --> 01:40:34,210 something. 1292 01:40:34,210 --> 01:40:35,130 something. 1293 01:40:35,130 --> 01:40:38,073 I now have another person that I can talk to randomly about music. 1294 01:40:38,073 --> 01:40:39,193 That's cool. 1295 01:40:39,273 --> 01:40:42,616 So even if nobody listens to it, like I still kind of think about it. 1296 01:40:42,616 --> 01:40:49,040 It's like I'm creating this library of stuff that's like legitimately useful to me, you know? 1297 01:40:49,440 --> 01:40:56,175 And I think that at the end of the day, if it were to exist like privately in my house, like that's how I would think of like my sub stack. 1298 01:40:56,175 --> 01:41:04,630 It's like, this is my private library of stuff that I've like taken the time to like write questions about, ask for thoughtful answers from people. 1299 01:41:04,770 --> 01:41:09,212 and write down the parts of it that are interesting and worth revisiting to me. 1300 01:41:09,212 --> 01:41:13,444 So the fact that it's public and people can interact with it, know, definitely changes the game. 1301 01:41:13,444 --> 01:41:19,626 And I don't think you can decide, like we were saying before, it's like, I don't think you can decide to be Mr. 1302 01:41:19,626 --> 01:41:19,917 Beast. 1303 01:41:19,917 --> 01:41:27,920 I don't think you can decide to be somebody that has X, whatever the platform is, subscribers, followers, whatever. 1304 01:41:28,254 --> 01:41:33,866 You just get to choose whether or not like you do something and whether it's useful like to yourself or not. 1305 01:41:33,866 --> 01:41:39,087 then, you you hope that in doing it in earnest, like the rest of it kind of takes care of itself. 1306 01:41:39,087 --> 01:41:39,617 You know I mean? 1307 01:41:39,617 --> 01:41:48,440 It's like, it sounds really corny, but I just like, I've spent a lot of time thinking about it, you know, and I, and I will continue to, but I come up with roughly the same 1308 01:41:48,440 --> 01:41:55,192 answer, answer, which is I cannot control whether or not this is going to be successful. 1309 01:41:58,562 --> 01:42:00,235 Yeah, you can't. 1310 01:42:00,235 --> 01:42:02,165 It's part of the thrill too. 1311 01:42:02,688 --> 01:42:04,029 I know, yeah, I mean, think that's the thing. 1312 01:42:04,029 --> 01:42:12,155 like that is like, you're just, when you sit down in the studio, like the days where you come up with a good idea that ends up being a song that you release. 1313 01:42:12,512 --> 01:42:16,612 You didn't necessarily know that day it was gonna happen, you know? 1314 01:42:16,992 --> 01:42:19,992 But like you walk out and you're like, oh shit, like that was an idea. 1315 01:42:19,992 --> 01:42:23,632 You you need the space, because like sometimes you come back the next day and you're like, who made this? 1316 01:42:23,632 --> 01:42:26,072 Like I don't ever wanna hear this again, you know? 1317 01:42:26,272 --> 01:42:32,272 But some days you walk out and the next day you come back in, you re-listen to it and you're like, like there's something here, you know? 1318 01:42:32,272 --> 01:42:34,232 And those are... 1319 01:42:34,396 --> 01:42:42,272 not things I can predict on a daily basis, but based on the quality with which I'm maintaining the other kind of routines. 1320 01:42:42,272 --> 01:42:49,907 We've talked about exercise and sleep and writing and the other relationships in my life and everything like that. 1321 01:42:50,448 --> 01:42:59,995 All of that contributes to me having, it increases the probability that I'm gonna have a session where I'm gonna produce something that's interesting. 1322 01:42:59,995 --> 01:43:01,795 Whether it's good, I don't know. 1323 01:43:04,470 --> 01:43:08,599 And in a way, it's like, who cares? 1324 01:43:08,599 --> 01:43:11,946 It's like not your job to decide if it's good. 1325 01:43:11,946 --> 01:43:12,727 that part too, man. 1326 01:43:12,727 --> 01:43:21,743 I do think it's like we our responsibility to stop at the making and the releasing, you know, and like in terms of it because you can't control the opinions of people, man, you 1327 01:43:21,743 --> 01:43:22,443 know. 1328 01:43:23,431 --> 01:43:26,631 Yeah, I like that idea of like, it's not up to me. 1329 01:43:26,631 --> 01:43:29,472 Like, it's not my job. 1330 01:43:29,472 --> 01:43:44,716 Like, I've heard a lot of, I think I've heard like Bowie say that and a lot of people that are just prolific like that and have done interesting things and also received like some 1331 01:43:44,716 --> 01:43:46,297 harsh criticisms too. 1332 01:43:46,297 --> 01:43:49,278 It's like, well, I just make it, you know. 1333 01:43:49,537 --> 01:43:54,837 Exactly like and that's the thing is like trying to get up caught up in that is like what can you do? 1334 01:43:54,837 --> 01:43:59,377 mean, that's the thing is like a question you can ask yourself is what can you do? 1335 01:43:59,457 --> 01:44:04,377 To make the reception of your music more positive to people 1336 01:44:10,382 --> 01:44:12,704 mean, it's a lot of factors, right? 1337 01:44:12,704 --> 01:44:25,242 Like even when I listen to music, there's stuff that I love that maybe the first time I heard it, I didn't love because maybe it was like a more relaxed bedtime type of feel and 1338 01:44:25,242 --> 01:44:29,716 I wanted to go out and have fun and get psyched or vice versa, right? 1339 01:44:29,716 --> 01:44:39,202 Like I heard it at a time when I was looking for something like fast pace, cause I'm like gonna do something exciting and it didn't catch me at that moment. 1340 01:44:40,874 --> 01:44:47,660 Aside from just whether or not I would like it or not, also depends what mood I'm in, what my energy level is. 1341 01:44:47,660 --> 01:44:48,600 Yeah. 1342 01:44:48,740 --> 01:44:52,780 And what control do we have over that for listeners as artists? 1343 01:44:52,780 --> 01:44:54,100 know, it's like. 1344 01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:58,480 I mean, that's, know, like what what do the artists what are they able to do to us? 1345 01:44:58,480 --> 01:45:03,240 It's like, you know, we pick up some stuff because it gets recommended or a friend sends it to you. 1346 01:45:04,116 --> 01:45:08,638 You know, and sometimes, and we've all had that experience, like you just said, first time you heard it, didn't like it. 1347 01:45:08,638 --> 01:45:11,759 Sometimes like it's just not the right time, you know? 1348 01:45:11,759 --> 01:45:13,460 And that's an interesting experience with music. 1349 01:45:13,460 --> 01:45:19,842 know, it's like you're like albums that I didn't like before are now albums I love for some reason, you know? 1350 01:45:20,182 --> 01:45:24,916 Just wasn't the right time, Can't control that. 1351 01:45:26,075 --> 01:45:32,129 weird mysterious art world everything 1352 01:45:38,478 --> 01:45:45,283 Well, listen, this has been a lot of fun and I appreciate your generosity with your time and love what you're doing. 1353 01:45:45,283 --> 01:45:53,529 think it's great that you're going out there, sharing your thoughts, digging in with other artists and getting them to share their thoughts. 1354 01:45:53,529 --> 01:45:56,550 It's really valuable stuff. 1355 01:45:57,071 --> 01:46:02,585 Even if, even when it's stuff you've heard before, like we said, it's important to hear it again. 1356 01:46:02,585 --> 01:46:04,456 Sometimes people just say it in a different way. 1357 01:46:04,456 --> 01:46:07,278 That's like, oh, I never thought of it that way. 1358 01:46:07,874 --> 01:46:13,122 You've done a great job drawing a lot of this stuff out of your guests. 1359 01:46:13,484 --> 01:46:17,280 And I'm just glad you're doing Producer Head. 1360 01:46:17,696 --> 01:46:19,088 Thanks so much man, I really appreciate it. 1361 01:46:19,088 --> 01:46:24,645 Thank you again for your time and yeah man, anything I can do to help, let me know I'm here. 1362 01:46:24,645 --> 01:46:26,426 Appreciate it, this was a lot of fun. 1363 01:46:26,638 --> 01:46:26,959 Cool. 1364 01:46:26,959 --> 01:46:31,387 So we can send people to producerhead.substack.com. 1365 01:46:31,387 --> 01:46:33,044 That's the best way, right? 1366 01:46:33,044 --> 01:46:38,614 Yeah, that's where I host the podcast and that's where like all the extra writing and stuff kind of happens around that. 1367 01:46:38,626 --> 01:46:47,115 Yeah, and it's on all the podcast platforms, you so if you're on Apple or Spotify, you'll find it there, Producer Head. 1368 01:46:49,679 --> 01:46:50,961 Anywhere else? 1369 01:46:50,961 --> 01:46:58,959 know you got, your Instagram's fun, you're always playing and, you know, living the life, playing some guitar, enjoying your guitar playing and... 1370 01:46:58,959 --> 01:46:59,669 to get back. 1371 01:46:59,669 --> 01:47:03,123 definitely took a long break from the content thing because we didn't even get into that. 1372 01:47:03,123 --> 01:47:06,837 yeah, like as you know, like that can be a different kind of conveyor belt to be on. 1373 01:47:06,837 --> 01:47:08,098 But yeah, I'm trying to be back on there. 1374 01:47:08,098 --> 01:47:12,942 So on socials um at ToruBeat. 1375 01:47:13,884 --> 01:47:17,027 And yeah, man, those are the two best places for sure. 1376 01:47:17,027 --> 01:47:17,867 Sure. 1377 01:47:18,620 --> 01:47:20,943 You always start the podcast. 1378 01:47:21,425 --> 01:47:24,300 This is Turo, and in a way, so are you. 1379 01:47:24,724 --> 01:47:26,945 Yeah, mean, it comes from a... 1380 01:47:26,986 --> 01:47:38,344 It's funny, I very rarely get asked that, which in a way kind of surprises me, but uh basically it's the idea of like, know, Toru is, you that was like the musical identity 1381 01:47:38,344 --> 01:47:42,717 that like I created to release all the music that I do. 1382 01:47:42,858 --> 01:47:47,321 And I think when I started doing music, it was purely about a music thing for me. 1383 01:47:47,321 --> 01:47:50,823 And then it didn't take long before I was just sort of like... 1384 01:47:51,937 --> 01:48:01,297 the music just happens to be like my, like the form of like the broader thing, which is like, just do that thing that's like inside of you. 1385 01:48:01,297 --> 01:48:08,917 Like whatever your version of Toru is, whatever, maybe it's not music, maybe it's film, maybe it's writing, maybe it's something athletic. 1386 01:48:08,917 --> 01:48:09,937 You know what I mean? 1387 01:48:10,257 --> 01:48:14,777 To just, to give that space and to put that out there for other people. 1388 01:48:14,777 --> 01:48:22,277 And that's really what I hope, what I do is, is like more of an example of like, Hey, like I hope more people 1389 01:48:25,998 --> 01:48:26,718 Hmm. 1390 01:48:27,098 --> 01:48:28,219 That's cool. 1391 01:48:29,059 --> 01:48:29,319 Yeah. 1392 01:48:29,319 --> 01:48:42,713 I took, I've always took it as like this sort of interconnection of us, you know, we, we feel so separate, you know, where I'm in my own body and my own enclosure, but sometimes 1393 01:48:42,713 --> 01:48:51,456 you get these feelings of like, I'm just like part of the earth and, know, I'm a particle in this giant organism. 1394 01:48:51,998 --> 01:48:55,280 I definitely do like some of that is a big part of it for sure. 1395 01:48:55,280 --> 01:48:56,620 It comes from that kind of place. 1396 01:48:56,620 --> 01:49:01,813 mean, I guess like if I were to just like somebody who said it all way better, you know, like go read Alan Watts, right? 1397 01:49:01,813 --> 01:49:09,736 Like that's just a guy who, and I think that there's a lot of really interesting ideas that he's expressed that I don't think like he obviously is very well known, but I'm 1398 01:49:09,736 --> 01:49:16,049 surprised at how little he's talked about in more mainstream spheres really, because I don't, I think he's done such a good job. 1399 01:49:16,049 --> 01:49:21,972 He did such a good job of making them very accessible using very simple language and, really 1400 01:49:21,972 --> 01:49:29,130 interesting analogies to convey really, really like, I mean, kind of impossible to capture ideas. 1401 01:49:29,231 --> 01:49:31,944 So anyway, yeah, it does kind of come from that kind of place. 1402 01:49:31,944 --> 01:49:33,799 I do very much feel that kind of way. 1403 01:49:33,799 --> 01:49:39,302 And I do think that we get to provide those kinds of examples through what we do for other people. 1404 01:49:40,718 --> 01:49:41,538 Cool. 1405 01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:53,058 Well, if you think about it, the way you're spreading your ideas and the way those ideas get into people and then they use that to make their creation in a way, they are also 1406 01:49:53,058 --> 01:49:53,995 toru. 1407 01:49:53,995 --> 01:49:55,619 Yeah, it's really nice of to say that, man. 1408 01:49:55,619 --> 01:49:56,351 And same to you, man. 1409 01:49:56,351 --> 01:49:57,834 I mean, you you're doing your version of it. 1410 01:49:57,834 --> 01:50:00,321 So it's really cool to be a part of what you're doing also. 1411 01:50:00,321 --> 01:50:01,364 So thank you. 1412 01:50:01,364 --> 01:50:06,726 I always liked when people had like that kind of like a catchphrase, you uh 1413 01:50:08,524 --> 01:50:12,246 Like everyone, like so many big people, Bob Ross, Mr. 1414 01:50:12,246 --> 01:50:22,742 Rogers, like, and a lot of like YouTubers I follow will say certain phrases that like, you're kind of like, yes, you know, there it is. 1415 01:50:22,742 --> 01:50:31,410 catch, like almost like you ever see like um old like sitcoms where like the character would have the catchphrase they say every episode. 1416 01:50:31,410 --> 01:50:34,428 Everyone's like, yeah, like different strokes. 1417 01:50:34,428 --> 01:50:36,069 Like Arnold would be like, who'd you talk about, Willis? 1418 01:50:36,069 --> 01:50:37,410 And people are like, yeah. 1419 01:50:37,669 --> 01:50:39,679 yeah, South Park has theirs, right? 1420 01:50:39,679 --> 01:50:45,592 Yeah, it's like, yeah, full house, yeah, they all have. 1421 01:50:46,212 --> 01:50:47,473 Dude, it's, yeah, it's funny. 1422 01:50:47,473 --> 01:50:55,356 I mean, it's, I felt so, because it's one of those things that really early on I just kind of stumbled on and it's mostly just because of the way it's spelled and everything, but. 1423 01:50:56,372 --> 01:51:00,134 I like forced myself to say it because I felt really goofy. 1424 01:51:00,134 --> 01:51:03,335 still sometimes do, but now I'm pretty much like, feel comfortable. 1425 01:51:03,335 --> 01:51:07,707 I've like done it enough times, but the first few times, like I really like forced that out. 1426 01:51:07,707 --> 01:51:12,510 was like this, like, cause I was like, it was one of those things where I had fear around it, right? 1427 01:51:12,510 --> 01:51:14,500 I was like, this is really how I feel. 1428 01:51:14,500 --> 01:51:16,221 And I want people to know that. 1429 01:51:16,221 --> 01:51:20,593 But I also, it feels like corny or exposed or I don't want to do it because it, you know what I mean? 1430 01:51:20,593 --> 01:51:25,356 It can sound, what if people think I'm just being gimmicky or whatever, you know what I mean? 1431 01:51:25,356 --> 01:51:26,336 But so I, 1432 01:51:26,336 --> 01:51:31,430 It was one of those things I made a conscious effort to like force myself to say out loud to people. 1433 01:51:32,352 --> 01:51:33,292 Yeah. 1434 01:51:33,693 --> 01:51:34,083 Yeah, man. 1435 01:51:34,083 --> 01:51:35,180 I appreciate you bringing it up. 1436 01:51:35,180 --> 01:51:36,975 Yeah, that's unexpected. 1437 01:51:38,488 --> 01:51:43,284 Well, Julian, thanks so much and thank you to anyone listening. 1438 01:51:43,284 --> 01:51:44,362 I made it this far. 1439 01:51:44,362 --> 01:51:45,377 I really appreciate it. 1440 01:51:45,377 --> 01:51:54,578 I know we said like it's its own reward doing this, but it's so much more special to that anyone would want to listen to it and enjoy it. 1441 01:51:54,578 --> 01:51:57,332 So thank you so much for being a listener. 1442 01:52:01,270 --> 01:52:02,493 Alrighty. 1443 01:52:02,517 --> 01:52:03,253 Yeah.