1 00:00:01,346 --> 00:00:02,899 Welcome back, Sarah. 2 00:00:03,393 --> 00:00:05,802 Thank you, I'm happy to be back. 3 00:00:06,072 --> 00:00:18,751 Yeah, so you're in Australia right now for the folks listening, watching, and that's exciting because you're in tomorrow, I'm in tonight, or yesterday to you, and things are 4 00:00:18,751 --> 00:00:21,092 still okay in the future. 5 00:00:23,094 --> 00:00:23,514 Good. 6 00:00:23,514 --> 00:00:27,216 wild to try to wrap my head around the time difference. 7 00:00:27,457 --> 00:00:32,438 Like getting on the internet at the right time for this call. 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,722 It's confusing, but yeah, I'm making it work. 9 00:00:35,722 --> 00:00:36,882 uh 10 00:00:36,972 --> 00:00:37,882 Nice. 11 00:00:38,504 --> 00:00:41,846 Anything fun going on in and ask you what you were doing there? 12 00:00:41,847 --> 00:00:44,751 I don't think it's crocodile wrestling. 13 00:00:44,751 --> 00:00:45,211 things. 14 00:00:45,211 --> 00:00:56,194 um The main reason why I'm here is because I'm performing at the Melbourne International Film Festival um with a really wonderful artist named Julia Holter, who I've worked with a 15 00:00:56,194 --> 00:00:56,864 bunch before. 16 00:00:56,864 --> 00:00:59,635 I've played on a couple of her records. 17 00:00:59,635 --> 00:01:11,108 um And what we're doing for this visit is we're playing her score for the film uh Passion of Joan of Arc. 18 00:01:11,108 --> 00:01:17,058 which was made, it's a beautiful black and white film that was made in, I think, 1928. 19 00:01:18,808 --> 00:01:23,053 And by Carl Dreher is the filmmaker's name. 20 00:01:23,094 --> 00:01:25,838 And um yeah, it's just a beautiful score. 21 00:01:25,838 --> 00:01:27,920 uh She's written this piece for... 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,522 um 23 00:01:31,012 --> 00:01:37,844 voice and percussion and synth and I'm doing trumpet and electronics and there's a full choir as well. 24 00:01:38,244 --> 00:01:42,686 Like 15 to 20 person kind of operatic choir. 25 00:01:42,686 --> 00:01:47,147 So it's really epic and really, really fun. 26 00:01:47,147 --> 00:01:55,870 I played a couple other shows or I played one other show earlier this week here and then just spent yesterday at this really amazing. 27 00:01:55,994 --> 00:01:58,986 place that I'd love to shout out, which is called MESS. 28 00:01:58,986 --> 00:01:59,897 I don't know if you've heard of it. 29 00:01:59,897 --> 00:02:05,521 It's the Melbourne Electronic Sound Studio, I think is what the acronym stands for. 30 00:02:05,521 --> 00:02:18,009 And it's a nonprofit organization in Melbourne where they have, I think, hundreds and hundreds um of new and vintage electronic instruments. 31 00:02:18,270 --> 00:02:20,751 And you can rent time. 32 00:02:20,751 --> 00:02:24,472 You can book a four-hour slot and say, I'd love to work on the 33 00:02:24,472 --> 00:02:33,468 you know, the old surge modular synth or on this particular key vintage keyboard synth or whatever you have that you want to work on and they'll help you get it set up and you can 34 00:02:33,468 --> 00:02:36,019 just play it and record with it. 35 00:02:36,019 --> 00:02:37,450 It's amazing. 36 00:02:37,630 --> 00:02:38,561 It's amazing. 37 00:02:38,561 --> 00:02:41,732 I wish we had something like that in my backyard. 38 00:02:42,017 --> 00:02:43,237 Yeah, right? 39 00:02:44,138 --> 00:02:52,341 I've never been and really don't know a lot, but it does seem like so much cool stuff comes out of there. 40 00:02:52,741 --> 00:03:01,317 Very supportive of the arts and especially really embrace electronic music and forward thinking, next generation stuff. 41 00:03:01,317 --> 00:03:01,830 Yeah. 42 00:03:01,830 --> 00:03:06,050 Yeah, it's been a good, a very fun time so far. 43 00:03:07,533 --> 00:03:10,337 Do you get much rehearsal for this performance? 44 00:03:10,818 --> 00:03:12,454 With the choir and all that? 45 00:03:12,454 --> 00:03:16,934 two days of rehearsal coming up before we do the performances. 46 00:03:17,014 --> 00:03:28,934 But this is actually a piece that I originally performed with Julia and her band, I believe in 2021 or 2022. 47 00:03:28,934 --> 00:03:31,614 We did it in London. 48 00:03:31,754 --> 00:03:40,034 So we had a few days of rehearsal prior to that and then played a couple shows at the Barbican and at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival. 49 00:03:40,235 --> 00:03:43,624 So it's not my first time playing the music, which definitely helps. 50 00:03:46,094 --> 00:03:52,542 I'd probably normally say for people that might not be familiar with your work, would you tell them what you're up to? 51 00:03:52,542 --> 00:03:54,684 What exactly you mean, trumpets and electronics? 52 00:03:54,684 --> 00:04:01,812 But I think even for people familiar with your work, you're so varied in what you do, so experimental that... 53 00:04:02,495 --> 00:04:08,736 I don't think anyone that knows you will ever know what you're up to next and how you're doing this stuff. 54 00:04:08,736 --> 00:04:10,618 And I mean that as a compliment. 55 00:04:11,260 --> 00:04:16,388 Do you mind going into a little bit of what's going on trumpets and electronic wise? 56 00:04:16,388 --> 00:04:21,922 I don't mind to, no, I'm happy to talk about it for this particular series of shows. 57 00:04:21,922 --> 00:04:31,569 Sure, I'm actually making a um YouTube video about my setup and how I'm prepping for this particular show uh as well. 58 00:04:31,569 --> 00:04:35,532 So if anyone's kind of curious, that'll come out at some point in the future. 59 00:04:35,532 --> 00:04:36,853 I'm not exactly sure when. 60 00:04:36,853 --> 00:04:43,788 um But, know, so in the past when I did this particular 61 00:04:44,018 --> 00:04:55,836 show with Julia, what I did was I my trumpet and then I was using my computer and I was using a program called MaxMSP, which is a programming software where you can, uh it's 62 00:04:55,836 --> 00:05:05,153 extremely flexible and it basically allows you to build any kind of custom audio tool that you can imagine from scratch. 63 00:05:05,153 --> 00:05:12,138 So you could build little synth engines, you could build sound processors, delays, glitching. 64 00:05:12,138 --> 00:05:12,954 oh 65 00:05:12,954 --> 00:05:14,855 processor is kind of anything you can dream of. 66 00:05:14,855 --> 00:05:23,301 em And so I was using that and I use that for a lot of my, when I say trumpet electronics, a lot of the time it's trumpet plus max MSP. 67 00:05:23,301 --> 00:05:34,599 em But for this particular time around, I thought it would be a fun opportunity to actually learn some new gear that I've had around for a while that I haven't really been 68 00:05:34,599 --> 00:05:35,470 using. 69 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:42,014 So I'm doing a new setup for me, which involves uh FX pedals. 70 00:05:43,659 --> 00:05:53,048 which is something a lot of people start with effects pedals, but for some reason for me, like I came in the programming side and effects pedals are actually relatively new. 71 00:05:53,048 --> 00:05:54,569 So it's been really fun to get to know them. 72 00:05:54,569 --> 00:06:00,524 Um, so I'm basically just using, uh, just a couple of pedals. 73 00:06:00,524 --> 00:06:06,439 Like my setup's really small, but the Eventide H90, which is a really great multi-effects pedal. 74 00:06:06,539 --> 00:06:09,722 don't know if you're familiar with it, um, where you can kind of, it's got 75 00:06:09,722 --> 00:06:21,709 tons of beautiful sounding delays and reverbs and um you can run two different programs at once and you can kind of customize them to be really performable. 76 00:06:21,709 --> 00:06:24,601 So that's my main tool for this show. 77 00:06:24,601 --> 00:06:32,645 And I also recently, I don't know how much you want to actually have me talk about gear here. 78 00:06:32,645 --> 00:06:37,370 I'm not trying to like promote this gear for anyone, but it's just exciting because it's new in my life. 79 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:43,154 em I recently got this pedal called the mixing link, which is also made by Eventide. 80 00:06:43,154 --> 00:06:48,498 And it's really cool because it allows you to just plug your microphone XLR cable straight into it. 81 00:06:48,498 --> 00:07:00,967 And it acts as a preamp and basically uh a signal mixer so that you can run your mic straight into pedals without needing any other equipment. 82 00:07:00,967 --> 00:07:02,298 And so for me, that's huge. 83 00:07:02,298 --> 00:07:05,101 Like I used to run it into my audio interface and... 84 00:07:05,101 --> 00:07:07,202 my computer and then out from my DAW. 85 00:07:07,202 --> 00:07:10,444 then I like, it was just this huge process. 86 00:07:11,325 --> 00:07:14,047 and now I just use this one pedal and I'm a big fan. 87 00:07:14,047 --> 00:07:14,767 thanks. 88 00:07:14,767 --> 00:07:17,569 Thanks even tied for that. 89 00:07:18,730 --> 00:07:19,085 Yeah. 90 00:07:19,085 --> 00:07:24,675 Yeah, because normally it's like a quarter inch jack for like, yeah. 91 00:07:24,675 --> 00:07:27,267 kind of complicated thing, especially matching levels, right? 92 00:07:27,267 --> 00:07:38,343 Because mic signals are so low um that getting like a good quality, good strength signal into an effects pedal to process it from a microphone is actually kind of tricky. 93 00:07:38,424 --> 00:07:48,680 So this pedal boosts the signal up and there's all kinds of other helpful but very boring utility things that I won't. 94 00:07:48,718 --> 00:07:50,359 I won't get into, but they're there. 95 00:07:50,359 --> 00:07:52,299 You can read about it if you're curious. 96 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:55,141 You can watch the video. 97 00:07:55,141 --> 00:07:56,641 Yeah. 98 00:07:57,262 --> 00:08:01,864 And then there's this one other pedal I'm using that's made by a company called Chase Bliss. 99 00:08:01,864 --> 00:08:07,546 They do a lot of really creative, kind of quirky effects pedals. 100 00:08:07,546 --> 00:08:11,307 And this one I'm using, if I remember correctly, it's called Onward. 101 00:08:11,307 --> 00:08:17,850 it basically, em I picked it because I wanted something that could kind of be like a looper. 102 00:08:17,998 --> 00:08:19,680 but like a weird looper. 103 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:27,285 So I didn't want, you know, I didn't want like a normal looper that gives you perfect four bar loops. 104 00:08:27,406 --> 00:08:37,715 I wanted something that would sort of distort the sound a little and maybe kind of do choppy glitchy loops and add a little bit of unpredictability into the sound as I was 105 00:08:37,715 --> 00:08:38,615 playing. 106 00:08:38,615 --> 00:08:40,017 And it does that really well. 107 00:08:40,017 --> 00:08:42,499 So um that's my whole setup. 108 00:08:42,499 --> 00:08:46,601 So pedals, couple pedals and a trumpet. 109 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:48,197 That's cool. 110 00:08:48,197 --> 00:09:00,724 I guess people like me, guitar players, are used to those and we kind of get to them first and I've tried to run microphones through them and yeah, it comes out interesting and 111 00:09:00,724 --> 00:09:07,093 weird and but nice to have something that knows how to handle it properly like that. 112 00:09:07,093 --> 00:09:08,003 funny. 113 00:09:08,124 --> 00:09:18,073 I always feel a little bit like I came into the world of electronic music from uh an unusual side, because I think a lot of folks get started either working in DAWs, like 114 00:09:18,073 --> 00:09:22,336 working in Ableton or Logic, or working with effects pedals. 115 00:09:22,657 --> 00:09:32,785 And I just didn't know about those things until I was already kind of doing a lot of stuff with programming and... 116 00:09:33,907 --> 00:09:36,400 physical computing, kind of instrument design stuff. 117 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,416 And then years in I was like, oh, DAWs are great. 118 00:09:40,416 --> 00:09:42,097 I didn't know about these. 119 00:09:42,659 --> 00:09:45,177 So, just coming at it from a different angle. 120 00:09:45,177 --> 00:09:54,562 a lot of, think, what gives your work its interesting, unique take, because you come from classically trained, that kind of background. 121 00:09:54,602 --> 00:10:00,965 I think it's really kind of only recently that even schools have sort of embraced that a bit. 122 00:10:00,965 --> 00:10:06,187 You mentioned Stony Brook you were just in recently, and when I was there as a student, 123 00:10:06,988 --> 00:10:09,568 uh There was no sign of that. 124 00:10:09,568 --> 00:10:18,656 And as a guitar player in rock bands, it was so foreign to me to see orchestras and recitals and all that stuff. 125 00:10:18,656 --> 00:10:23,118 And there was no sign of uh anything I was familiar with. 126 00:10:23,118 --> 00:10:25,441 And now things have changed. 127 00:10:25,441 --> 00:10:36,768 But it's cool that you got into like the Mac stuff, because that's, think maybe a lot of people might know of like Macs for Live and... 128 00:10:37,032 --> 00:10:37,750 totally. 129 00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:39,263 that's the same world. 130 00:10:39,263 --> 00:10:41,249 um I've never learned that stuff. 131 00:10:41,249 --> 00:10:46,060 That to me is, you know, that's for another day, I guess. 132 00:10:46,060 --> 00:10:48,043 m 133 00:10:48,043 --> 00:10:48,794 curve for sure. 134 00:10:48,794 --> 00:10:51,707 I mean, I will say if anyone's curious, it's really fun. 135 00:10:51,707 --> 00:10:57,472 uh It's really rewarding once you get into it because it really is endlessly flexible. 136 00:10:57,472 --> 00:11:01,175 em But it's a big learning curve for sure. 137 00:11:01,175 --> 00:11:05,639 And one thing that I personally realize this might be helpful for someone who's listening. 138 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:14,156 em think, so I tried to learn Max MSP a long time ago, long before I was deep into the world of 139 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:16,226 modular synths and all of that. 140 00:11:16,247 --> 00:11:22,648 And I found it really difficult to wrap my head around all the different concepts and the signal flow. 141 00:11:22,648 --> 00:11:24,509 Like everything was just so foreign to me. 142 00:11:24,509 --> 00:11:35,412 em And then I took a bunch of years working really deeply with modular synths em and understanding that workflow. 143 00:11:35,432 --> 00:11:38,673 And then I went back to learning Max and it was a lot easier. 144 00:11:38,673 --> 00:11:41,714 A lot of the core concepts made a lot more sense. 145 00:11:41,714 --> 00:11:42,968 em 146 00:11:42,968 --> 00:11:49,091 a lot of the way that they kind of name things and the way that you have to connect things just was a lot more intuitive. 147 00:11:49,091 --> 00:11:58,747 So if I were, you know, suggesting to anyone a way of getting into that corner of the world, I would say start with modular synth focused learning. 148 00:11:58,747 --> 00:12:00,918 You don't need all of the tools. 149 00:12:00,918 --> 00:12:03,129 You can do it all virtual too on a computer. 150 00:12:03,129 --> 00:12:08,051 uh But I would say start there and then venture over into Macs. 151 00:12:08,132 --> 00:12:10,303 Personally, that's my two cents. 152 00:12:10,303 --> 00:12:12,481 Why are you laughing? 153 00:12:12,481 --> 00:12:14,242 a dangerous gateway. 154 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:16,820 The modular synth board. 155 00:12:17,266 --> 00:12:17,726 I do. 156 00:12:17,726 --> 00:12:19,388 Yeah, no, you're right though. 157 00:12:19,649 --> 00:12:20,679 But it does make sense. 158 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:28,157 mean, even like guitar players understanding signal flow by, oh, what if I put my distortion after my reverb? 159 00:12:28,157 --> 00:12:30,360 And what if I mix that around? 160 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,083 It has all come in really handy down the road in all of this stuff. 161 00:12:35,181 --> 00:12:35,733 totally. 162 00:12:35,733 --> 00:12:38,423 Yeah, I guess effects pedals. 163 00:12:38,572 --> 00:12:40,694 recommendation though I haven't heard. 164 00:12:42,199 --> 00:12:45,584 If you want to get into that, start with modular synths. 165 00:12:45,656 --> 00:12:56,049 I know most people, I guess, think modular maybe is like the end of the road of complexity or something, but it can be simpler, I think, than people realize. 166 00:12:56,049 --> 00:13:07,232 em And the reason why I'm saying that, to be clear, it's not, you I think when people hear, get into modular synth, they immediately jump to like, go buy uh a wall full of 167 00:13:07,232 --> 00:13:08,162 expensive gear. 168 00:13:08,162 --> 00:13:09,333 And that's not what I'm talking about. 169 00:13:09,333 --> 00:13:13,794 I'm really talking about just the concepts, the modular synthesis concepts. 170 00:13:13,978 --> 00:13:23,834 um The reason why it's so helpful to begin with is because it's you're, it's kind of like you're looking under the hood of a car where you've got all your different components, all 171 00:13:23,834 --> 00:13:27,446 your sound generators, all your processors, all the different things. 172 00:13:27,446 --> 00:13:31,689 And you have to decide like, how do I want to put all these Lego building blocks together? 173 00:13:31,689 --> 00:13:35,561 As opposed to just getting the instrument that's pre-built, right? 174 00:13:35,561 --> 00:13:39,980 And so once you kind of can start to wrap your head around that, you have 175 00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:45,395 all this flexibility in terms of designing your own sound and designing your own workflow, which is super, super fun. 176 00:13:45,395 --> 00:13:49,018 um So that's really what I mean. 177 00:13:49,018 --> 00:13:53,551 It's not so much you have to get all the gear and you have to have all the physical modules. 178 00:13:53,551 --> 00:13:56,144 It's just about learning the concepts. 179 00:13:56,144 --> 00:14:01,528 for the record, you can do all of that with free software um as well. 180 00:14:01,528 --> 00:14:07,373 So I'm a big fan of uh VCV Rack, which I know we've definitely talked a lot about in the past. 181 00:14:07,373 --> 00:14:08,914 um 182 00:14:09,380 --> 00:14:11,813 There's a bunch of other virtual softwares that people can check out. 183 00:14:11,813 --> 00:14:14,135 think another one is Cherry Audio. 184 00:14:14,135 --> 00:14:16,658 That's either free or very affordable. 185 00:14:16,658 --> 00:14:20,617 So there's some options to get started without mountains of gear. 186 00:14:20,617 --> 00:14:23,788 Yeah, now I get what you mean, because it's like one thing at a time. 187 00:14:23,788 --> 00:14:28,110 Play with the tone generator, then okay, play with the envelope. 188 00:14:29,290 --> 00:14:35,633 Maybe you remember Korg came out with these, they were like marketed, think, like toys really. 189 00:14:35,833 --> 00:14:40,643 They were those little like square things and you would connect them with what? 190 00:14:40,643 --> 00:14:43,691 powered, what are they called? 191 00:14:43,691 --> 00:14:47,294 It was like micro bits or something along those lines. 192 00:14:47,294 --> 00:14:56,570 And they helped me understand synthesis a lot when I was first learning because it was just this little, okay, this thing is just making a noise and then you plug it into the 193 00:14:56,570 --> 00:15:00,042 next thing and they might've even been like magnetic or something. 194 00:15:01,744 --> 00:15:03,095 Little bits, yeah, right. 195 00:15:03,095 --> 00:15:06,230 Yeah, those are really cool. 196 00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:06,670 thing. 197 00:15:06,670 --> 00:15:21,670 It's like there's something about having all of these pieces and then figuring out how you want one to flow to the next to the next that it just reveals it like to me anyway, it 198 00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:27,270 reveals the, I don't know, the process in a really clear way. 199 00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:28,970 And of course it also has a learning curve. 200 00:15:28,970 --> 00:15:30,030 takes time. 201 00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:33,590 Everything takes time to learn, know, and patience, but 202 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:43,070 It can be a lot easier to start with those individual building blocks than to come to like a fully built synth that just feels like a bit of a mystery. 203 00:15:43,070 --> 00:15:45,616 We were like, why is this doing what it's doing? 204 00:15:45,616 --> 00:15:46,967 What's going on behind the panel? 205 00:15:46,967 --> 00:15:49,078 I have no clue how things are connected. 206 00:15:50,410 --> 00:15:54,302 Yeah, it just gives you a taste of like one part at a time. 207 00:15:54,642 --> 00:16:00,646 Cause I can remember playing around with some synths when I, before I knew anything about them at all. 208 00:16:00,646 --> 00:16:06,708 And just turning every knob randomly, not understanding there was even a signal flow to begin with. 209 00:16:06,809 --> 00:16:12,592 that I'm playing with knobs, LFO and whatever that is. 210 00:16:12,592 --> 00:16:15,433 To me, it was like uh a boy band. 211 00:16:16,774 --> 00:16:17,674 It was. 212 00:16:18,695 --> 00:16:23,056 Do remember like the Abercrombie and Fitch or something like that? 213 00:16:23,056 --> 00:16:24,247 That song, whatever. 214 00:16:24,247 --> 00:16:28,438 yeah, it's probably... 215 00:16:29,598 --> 00:16:36,700 Yeah, they were like, uh yeah, I think they didn't quite hit that level, but they did have a hit. 216 00:16:37,261 --> 00:16:43,122 But getting it pieced apart, same thing with, I think, guitar pedals too. 217 00:16:43,194 --> 00:16:44,844 think it's super similar. 218 00:16:45,259 --> 00:16:52,803 Yeah, because like you might get a vocal chain or like one of these plugins that's to everything you need for vocals and you're like, what is it? 219 00:16:52,803 --> 00:16:55,294 But if you think about, it's kind of like my guitar pedal. 220 00:16:55,294 --> 00:17:01,187 had a delay, had a chorus and little things at once. 221 00:17:02,444 --> 00:17:03,375 Right. 222 00:17:03,638 --> 00:17:04,299 Yeah. 223 00:17:04,299 --> 00:17:05,291 Exactly. 224 00:17:06,185 --> 00:17:13,608 I noticed, and something I wanted to bring up with you anyway, you say the word fun a lot when you're doing this stuff. 225 00:17:13,608 --> 00:17:18,240 And it seems to be a real important part of your whole process. 226 00:17:18,860 --> 00:17:25,643 And I was just kind of looking at your Instagram before we started and you're just playing with stuff. 227 00:17:27,504 --> 00:17:34,146 It seems to me like you let the fun kind of be the lead in a lot of what you do. 228 00:17:34,456 --> 00:17:35,348 I do. 229 00:17:36,366 --> 00:17:37,442 Yeah. 230 00:17:37,685 --> 00:17:45,514 assuming that maybe in the past, some of the other musical training you had was devoid of that aspect. 231 00:17:45,514 --> 00:17:55,486 Cause as I said, when I was in school, I wasn't taking music, but just dropping in on classes that would fulfill requirements. 232 00:17:55,486 --> 00:17:56,987 And sometimes we'd be 233 00:17:57,492 --> 00:18:07,360 required to go to a recital and I was coming from the punk rock show where we were just going crazy and loud and laughing and then you're in the recital where it's so tense. 234 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:16,086 Um, where you're like scared sitting there even to make a noise and someone's really under the microscope. 235 00:18:16,347 --> 00:18:26,235 Do you, do you think it's a uh form of rebellion or is it just, was there a discovery moment for you where, I can have fun or. 236 00:18:26,407 --> 00:18:27,667 I think there were... 237 00:18:29,188 --> 00:18:29,808 totally. 238 00:18:29,808 --> 00:18:30,448 Yeah. 239 00:18:30,448 --> 00:18:34,290 You know, I think there were many, many moments for me. 240 00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:41,993 em But I do, you know, I come from a background, my early musical training was classical conservatory style. 241 00:18:41,993 --> 00:18:46,185 So anyone who's listening, who's experienced that immediately knows the vibe. 242 00:18:46,185 --> 00:18:49,216 It's very, em it was very strict. 243 00:18:49,216 --> 00:18:54,778 It was very competitive and it was very em kind of all or nothing. 244 00:18:54,778 --> 00:19:01,898 If you weren't playing, practicing your instrument for four to eight hours a day, you were falling behind. 245 00:19:02,078 --> 00:19:07,858 And it was all about precision and technique and accuracy and execution. 246 00:19:08,098 --> 00:19:12,138 And those were like the words that were central to my creative. 247 00:19:12,138 --> 00:19:17,978 I don't even know if I'd call it a creative practice, but like my trumpet practice for the first long time. 248 00:19:19,118 --> 00:19:22,298 And I, like many... 249 00:19:22,298 --> 00:19:24,369 I think like many people experience this. 250 00:19:24,369 --> 00:19:37,029 When I was finishing my undergrad, which was in classical trumpet performance, I was having a major ah kind of existential crisis where I was just like, wow, I'm done with 251 00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:37,870 school. 252 00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:43,854 This is all I've ever done really is study and play this instrument. 253 00:19:44,035 --> 00:19:48,514 I don't know if I really like it that much anymore because I was... 254 00:19:48,514 --> 00:19:50,376 struggling a lot with performance anxiety. 255 00:19:50,376 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaking of the tension you felt in the concert hall, it's not just in the audience. 256 00:19:54,119 --> 00:20:03,658 It's like you're getting up on stage and every time I would do that, I just felt like I was walking the plank, you know, where I was just like, this is a moment where if I make 257 00:20:03,658 --> 00:20:08,582 one mistake, everything is like earth shattering, you know? 258 00:20:08,582 --> 00:20:14,894 And so I put so much pressure on myself to perform at a high level. 259 00:20:14,894 --> 00:20:19,898 And as a result, when you put that amount of pressure on yourself, you don't really perform at a high level. 260 00:20:19,898 --> 00:20:21,359 Some people do, like you said. 261 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,701 Some people thrive under that kind of pressure. 262 00:20:23,822 --> 00:20:27,985 For me, though, I didn't really. 263 00:20:27,985 --> 00:20:33,594 em So I was getting ready to maybe pack it all in and quit music altogether. 264 00:20:33,594 --> 00:20:43,077 And thankfully, instead of doing that, I ended up meeting a few wonderful people who just really approached music in a very different and very unusual way. 265 00:20:44,218 --> 00:20:50,978 And that bit by bit, it's a very long story, but bit by bit, it led me toward the world of free improvisation. 266 00:20:50,978 --> 00:20:57,778 So making music up on the spot with no notes, no chart, no chords, no plan, just playing. 267 00:20:57,778 --> 00:21:01,298 And I was like terrified of that, but also really into it. 268 00:21:01,298 --> 00:21:02,998 I was like, this is amazing. 269 00:21:03,538 --> 00:21:09,038 And that led me in a very roundabout way into the world of electronic music. 270 00:21:11,658 --> 00:21:21,685 And again, it's a long story with many twists and turns, but it was basically at each of these steps, I kind of had you ask like, was there a moment for me when I was like, this 271 00:21:21,685 --> 00:21:22,395 could be fun. 272 00:21:22,395 --> 00:21:28,990 I think at each of those steps, I had these little flicker moments where I was like, wait a second, this is awesome. 273 00:21:28,990 --> 00:21:31,852 Like I can, it can feel like this. 274 00:21:32,072 --> 00:21:33,793 I can have this much fun on stage. 275 00:21:33,793 --> 00:21:41,138 I'll never forget, there was one performance where it was basically my first time ever playing a 276 00:21:41,176 --> 00:21:48,679 solo piece, was solo trumpet, but it also involved a little bit of improvisation and a little bit of performance art. 277 00:21:48,679 --> 00:21:49,950 So there was some theatrics. 278 00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:53,231 I had to speak and sing and move a little bit. 279 00:21:53,511 --> 00:22:01,475 And for the first time in my entire life, I was on stage and I paused and I looked at the audience and I had this moment where I kind of came out of the music and I was like, I'm 280 00:22:01,475 --> 00:22:04,056 having a really good time. 281 00:22:04,256 --> 00:22:05,557 This is awesome. 282 00:22:05,557 --> 00:22:07,577 And then I'm like, okay, wait, Sarah, focus, keep going. 283 00:22:07,577 --> 00:22:09,176 um 284 00:22:09,176 --> 00:22:17,052 And then from that day forward, I was like, want every performance to feel like that or better, you know, just because now I knew it was possible. 285 00:22:17,112 --> 00:22:21,005 So I started to seek out collaborations that felt lively and exciting. 286 00:22:21,005 --> 00:22:24,297 And I started to, you know, improvise more. 287 00:22:24,297 --> 00:22:33,425 And every time I saw something that just seemed or met someone that seemed like they might push me in a new direction, I was like, okay, this is great. 288 00:22:33,425 --> 00:22:34,145 Let's do this. 289 00:22:34,145 --> 00:22:35,986 em 290 00:22:36,792 --> 00:22:46,460 And now fun is basically like my, and joy, they're basically like my prime directives in making music, you know. 291 00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:47,922 um 292 00:22:49,434 --> 00:22:53,176 And one of my favorite questions to ask is how fun can this be? 293 00:22:53,757 --> 00:22:59,511 You know, as I'm walking into my studio in the day, I'm like, instead of, I gonna do something good today? 294 00:22:59,511 --> 00:23:01,854 Will I make a track anyone wants to hear? 295 00:23:01,854 --> 00:23:04,565 Blah, blah, like all the questions that usually go through our heads. 296 00:23:04,565 --> 00:23:09,509 um I'm just trying to always ask like, how fun can I make this today? 297 00:23:09,509 --> 00:23:11,730 And that usually leads you somewhere pretty cool. 298 00:23:12,478 --> 00:23:14,622 Yeah, I think so too. 299 00:23:16,066 --> 00:23:16,768 Growing up... 300 00:23:16,768 --> 00:23:18,126 um 301 00:23:18,126 --> 00:23:21,227 really like not having those experiences. 302 00:23:21,307 --> 00:23:31,850 There were some times where we'd play with musicians who were trained and in school and in the band and they were, you know, scoring high marks on the New York, it's called the 303 00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:35,491 NISMA, New York State, something or other. 304 00:23:35,491 --> 00:23:44,374 And, you know, like they were like sought after colleges were interested in them, but they'd come and play with us. 305 00:23:44,875 --> 00:23:45,935 And they'd like, what should I do? 306 00:23:45,935 --> 00:23:49,475 we're I don't know, just we're playing A-D-E. 307 00:23:49,475 --> 00:23:53,255 And they'd be like, what do you mean? 308 00:23:53,635 --> 00:23:55,835 You're like top of the class. 309 00:23:56,215 --> 00:24:00,035 So it would take them a while to get out of that. 310 00:24:00,075 --> 00:24:05,274 Whereas we didn't have the training, but we had the kind of recklessness, I guess. 311 00:24:05,274 --> 00:24:06,695 That's so good. 312 00:24:06,695 --> 00:24:07,734 I was like that. 313 00:24:07,734 --> 00:24:11,397 I was like the person who was coming in saying, what do I do for years? 314 00:24:11,397 --> 00:24:22,463 em And I always tell, know, something that I, you know, I do a lot of teaching and something that I get asked a lot by my students, especially people who are beginners is, 315 00:24:22,463 --> 00:24:24,375 um you know, do I need music theory? 316 00:24:24,375 --> 00:24:29,548 Do I need formal training in order to make electronic music, in order to learn how modular synths work? 317 00:24:29,548 --> 00:24:34,390 And a lot of people will actually em delay 318 00:24:34,488 --> 00:24:40,063 getting started sometimes for years until they feel like they have adequate formal training. 319 00:24:40,063 --> 00:24:50,963 And I just wish, I want everyone to hear what you just said, because there really is this gift that can come from not necessarily having all of that training and just using your 320 00:24:50,963 --> 00:24:54,906 ears and your heart and just playing, you know, and figuring it out as you go. 321 00:24:54,906 --> 00:24:56,737 It can be so liberating. 322 00:24:56,898 --> 00:25:01,802 Of course, there's nothing wrong with studying and learning the theory, but you don't. 323 00:25:01,870 --> 00:25:09,095 I really don't think you need it in order to get started playing an instrument like a modular synth. 324 00:25:09,496 --> 00:25:11,537 Or any instrument for that matter. 325 00:25:11,537 --> 00:25:13,398 You can just play. 326 00:25:14,366 --> 00:25:21,232 Yeah, of course it helps and it expands your possibilities and opens doors and things. 327 00:25:21,493 --> 00:25:22,894 But yeah, I see the same thing too. 328 00:25:22,894 --> 00:25:26,161 And I see it in myself even where I need to see another tutorial. 329 00:25:26,161 --> 00:25:34,816 I have to learn how this thing works before I use it or people often, am I ready to make something on this? 330 00:25:34,816 --> 00:25:37,928 I need to study, I need to learn the software more. 331 00:25:39,828 --> 00:25:41,919 But the certificate never comes in the mail. 332 00:25:41,919 --> 00:25:44,121 The permission slip never arrives. 333 00:25:44,121 --> 00:25:49,094 You just have to make it yourself and then just push forward. 334 00:25:49,094 --> 00:25:53,106 And there's really no better teacher than that to just... 335 00:25:53,422 --> 00:25:54,602 so true. 336 00:25:54,602 --> 00:25:59,662 Yeah, it's not that we don't want to be refining our skills and studying and learning. 337 00:25:59,662 --> 00:26:00,722 Of course we do. 338 00:26:00,722 --> 00:26:03,702 That's a big part of growing as musicians. 339 00:26:03,762 --> 00:26:09,922 But yeah, what you said, it's about, it's not waiting until a certain point to feel ready, right? 340 00:26:09,922 --> 00:26:15,936 Like you don't, you don't want to wait until, I need, I need. 341 00:26:15,936 --> 00:26:19,839 X number of tutorials and then I'll be ready to start making music. 342 00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:20,570 It's like, no, no, no. 343 00:26:20,570 --> 00:26:29,207 You can start making music and start thinking and expressing yourself creatively, even if all you have is a pile of rocks and you, you know, that like, you can do that. 344 00:26:29,207 --> 00:26:33,640 It's a decision to make that you're just going to play with what you have. 345 00:26:33,661 --> 00:26:41,247 And then you can go and read the manual for that pile of rocks and learn about how they work and get deeper into it. 346 00:26:41,247 --> 00:26:44,890 But, you know, it's a lot like 347 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,151 waiting for confidence. 348 00:26:46,151 --> 00:26:48,351 This is something I talk a lot about with my students. 349 00:26:48,351 --> 00:26:58,916 em A lot of the time people think, well, I need to have X and I need to have Y and then maybe then I'll be confident, right? 350 00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:08,600 em And they're just kind of waiting to feel confident until, so that they're waiting to feel confident before they take action and start doing something like make music or 351 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:09,040 anything. 352 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:15,022 em But what you, like you just said, we know where confidence actually comes from. 353 00:27:15,326 --> 00:27:20,768 is taking action and doing things before you feel confident, right? 354 00:27:20,768 --> 00:27:21,868 And before you're ready. 355 00:27:21,868 --> 00:27:34,732 em So fumbling your way through a session and playing some wrong notes, but like trying it anyway, over time, if you do that enough, you're gonna start to build that feeling of 356 00:27:34,732 --> 00:27:36,723 confidence, right? 357 00:27:36,723 --> 00:27:40,094 But if you just wait, you're gonna be waiting a long time. 358 00:27:40,411 --> 00:27:48,735 yeah you will and there's so many ways to question it and think you need this or that. 359 00:27:49,376 --> 00:27:51,537 I guess it just becomes a trust. 360 00:27:51,537 --> 00:28:00,201 You give yourself that I'll figure something out, you know, or I won't die from it. 361 00:28:00,201 --> 00:28:05,604 Something, you realize that the consequences aren't so terrible. 362 00:28:05,976 --> 00:28:06,827 Right. 363 00:28:06,951 --> 00:28:07,814 It's a good reminder. 364 00:28:07,814 --> 00:28:11,095 We are making making music at the end of the day. 365 00:28:11,335 --> 00:28:17,229 Yeah, I find myself coming back to like, it's called play music, it's not work music. 366 00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:20,311 Just play, have fun. 367 00:28:20,752 --> 00:28:32,421 So early on too, I feel lucky for this experience where when I was first learning guitar, I'd taken some lessons and my friend lived down the street, best friends. 368 00:28:32,421 --> 00:28:37,644 um I showed him the power chord shape. 369 00:28:37,957 --> 00:28:45,719 And I showed him the spot to put his hand so that I could practice like my pentatonic scale over it and all that. 370 00:28:45,858 --> 00:28:57,623 And then a day or two later, he came back and he was just moving it around and kind of came up with a pattern of movement he liked that when I saw, was like, well, that's not 371 00:28:57,623 --> 00:29:00,763 really in the key that I just learned at guitar lessons. 372 00:29:01,384 --> 00:29:02,924 But it sounds cool. 373 00:29:03,584 --> 00:29:05,985 And it was eye opening that. 374 00:29:06,301 --> 00:29:07,641 He doesn't know. 375 00:29:07,842 --> 00:29:10,904 He doesn't know he's not supposed to do that, right? 376 00:29:10,904 --> 00:29:13,525 And like, I barely just learned it. 377 00:29:14,045 --> 00:29:21,069 But it made me kind of understand that, you know, just do it, just try it. 378 00:29:21,069 --> 00:29:27,533 And sometimes, sometimes the more you learn too, the more you do question yourself. 379 00:29:27,753 --> 00:29:31,835 Because I think we start to see all of the things that we don't know. 380 00:29:31,835 --> 00:29:34,697 The more we know, the more we realize that we don't know. 381 00:29:34,770 --> 00:29:35,421 100%. 382 00:29:35,421 --> 00:29:37,035 I agree with that fully. 383 00:29:37,035 --> 00:29:49,736 Yeah, so it's a, you know, something that I really try to do is, it's not easy, but to just have that kind of beginner's mindset every time I'm walking into my studio or sitting 384 00:29:49,736 --> 00:29:50,727 down with my instrument. 385 00:29:50,727 --> 00:29:58,774 em Because you're right, the more that you learn, the more you realize how much there still is to learn and you start to see your flaws. 386 00:29:59,032 --> 00:30:00,323 right, and hear your flaws. 387 00:30:00,323 --> 00:30:02,724 But that just shows how much you've learned. 388 00:30:02,924 --> 00:30:11,979 Like if you're hearing all your mistakes and your flaws at the end of every time you make a track and you're like, my God, I can't believe I produced that this way or wow, I could 389 00:30:11,979 --> 00:30:18,452 do so much better on that, you know, production element or whatever it is. 390 00:30:18,452 --> 00:30:23,134 That's actually something to celebrate because that shows how far you've come. 391 00:30:23,889 --> 00:30:26,231 That motivates me to do the next thing. 392 00:30:26,571 --> 00:30:33,927 So, good, like, not good, but, you know, that was off, that didn't sound right. 393 00:30:33,927 --> 00:30:35,559 Now I want to do the next thing. 394 00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:38,320 It gets me a little more excited to move forward. 395 00:30:39,067 --> 00:30:49,782 I think really harping on things and trying to mold it into perfection just gets me more frustrated and gets me thinking, what's wrong with this? 396 00:30:49,782 --> 00:30:50,813 What am I doing wrong? 397 00:30:50,813 --> 00:30:52,364 Where am I messing up? 398 00:30:52,364 --> 00:31:02,668 And that's just a way less exciting place to be than, you know, exploring new things and trying to find out ways to solve those issues. 399 00:31:02,818 --> 00:31:03,638 Yeah. 400 00:31:03,819 --> 00:31:15,285 And you know, I know that people know this, but I think it's worth saying again, 99 % of people out there, they're not going to hear the same flaws that you hear in your music, 401 00:31:15,285 --> 00:31:16,106 right? 402 00:31:16,106 --> 00:31:25,511 So you can agonize over some element that you could have mixed better or that you played, I don't know, not quite the way you hoped you could have played it. 403 00:31:25,511 --> 00:31:31,134 And you could let that prevent you from releasing your music and sharing your music, or you could put it out anyway. 404 00:31:31,246 --> 00:31:36,189 And that's the better option because putting it out anyway, it's going to land and resonate with people. 405 00:31:36,189 --> 00:31:43,745 It might, it might become someone's favorite song and they're not going to hear that flaw or they'll hear it and it'll be their favorite part. 406 00:31:43,745 --> 00:31:54,322 Like think about all the artists that you love whose slightly warbly, slightly crackly voice or whatever is something that is just iconic and makes them who they are. 407 00:31:54,322 --> 00:31:55,123 Right. 408 00:31:55,123 --> 00:32:00,430 And of course they could play with more technique or more clarity or whatever, but 409 00:32:00,430 --> 00:32:05,036 you're kind of happy they don't because it becomes them. 410 00:32:05,411 --> 00:32:08,324 None of my favorite singers would win American Idol. 411 00:32:09,287 --> 00:32:09,852 None of them. 412 00:32:09,852 --> 00:32:11,803 with trumpet players who I love. 413 00:32:11,803 --> 00:32:15,344 You know, they're all over the place, slipping and sliding out of tune. 414 00:32:15,344 --> 00:32:18,315 And sometimes they've got soft articulation. 415 00:32:18,315 --> 00:32:26,127 All these things that I was taught were wrong and bad technique, but they make their voice on the instrument so singular. 416 00:32:26,127 --> 00:32:28,868 You know, it just makes them sound like who they are. 417 00:32:28,868 --> 00:32:35,180 And that to me makes just makes it so much more special to listen to. 418 00:32:37,641 --> 00:32:46,091 Yeah, and when you're making your own thing and this happens playing in bands, we, you know, we make mistakes and it would be like, no one's going to know. 419 00:32:46,091 --> 00:32:56,742 Whereas in the conservatory setting, like everyone knows except like the regular people listening that are just blown away with how nice it sounds. 420 00:32:57,464 --> 00:32:58,324 But 421 00:32:58,853 --> 00:33:08,053 Sometimes when I play with my band, might do a part too long or skip it, or I mess up the first verse lyrics with the second verse lyrics. 422 00:33:08,053 --> 00:33:12,737 And it's like, nobody knows that that's not how our songs go. 423 00:33:12,817 --> 00:33:18,339 So, um you just kind of, you just ride it out. 424 00:33:18,339 --> 00:33:23,780 And sometimes even when you make those mistakes, you find a better way. 425 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,161 And it just... 426 00:33:27,404 --> 00:33:30,076 this one live performance I went to when I was a little kid. 427 00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:34,188 It was my first live performance of seeing kind of like a pop band play live. 428 00:33:34,248 --> 00:33:35,729 Sort of pop, I guess. 429 00:33:35,729 --> 00:33:36,930 Pop adjacent. 430 00:33:36,930 --> 00:33:38,571 And they deviated. 431 00:33:38,571 --> 00:33:40,552 Oh, God. 432 00:33:40,552 --> 00:33:42,443 I don't know if I can share that information. 433 00:33:42,443 --> 00:33:44,845 I'm going to let people guess. 434 00:33:44,845 --> 00:33:48,307 I'm going let people guess. 435 00:33:48,307 --> 00:33:50,718 was, it was, I was young. 436 00:33:51,242 --> 00:33:55,725 And I grew up in Canada, so here, folks can send in their guesses. 437 00:33:56,607 --> 00:33:57,067 Anyway. 438 00:33:57,067 --> 00:34:03,512 um So I knew the music inside and out, because I'd listened to the records endlessly. 439 00:34:03,512 --> 00:34:08,116 And I heard them deviate from the form and the song that I knew. 440 00:34:08,116 --> 00:34:09,657 And my mind was blown. 441 00:34:09,657 --> 00:34:10,708 It was so cool. 442 00:34:10,708 --> 00:34:12,760 And it was probably on purpose. 443 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:13,230 I don't know. 444 00:34:13,230 --> 00:34:14,051 Maybe it was a mistake. 445 00:34:14,051 --> 00:34:15,102 Maybe it was on purpose. 446 00:34:15,102 --> 00:34:19,505 But regardless, those moments when things are different, they're special. 447 00:34:20,772 --> 00:34:30,267 So even if it is a mistake and you're like, whoops, I skipped a verse or I played this twice as long or whatever, either no one knows or the people who are your big fans, they 448 00:34:30,267 --> 00:34:31,567 know and they're like, this is cool. 449 00:34:31,567 --> 00:34:35,469 I just got a really special experience. 450 00:34:35,469 --> 00:34:37,440 I heard something that's different. 451 00:34:38,834 --> 00:34:42,566 Well, it's part of why I think we like live music. 452 00:34:44,168 --> 00:34:47,100 I get a little bit of a weird feeling. 453 00:34:47,100 --> 00:35:00,659 And as much as I do my Ableton Live thing and I work with clips and stuff like that sometimes, I do get just this weird feeling when I feel like I'm hearing the exact same 454 00:35:00,659 --> 00:35:04,432 thing that happened in every city, every time. 455 00:35:04,432 --> 00:35:07,464 It's kind of like, well, like... 456 00:35:08,102 --> 00:35:10,013 Why am I here almost? 457 00:35:10,314 --> 00:35:27,155 And now too we can correct everything and make everything so perfect that it's, to me personally at least, it's just not as interesting as the stuff that has it's, I don't 458 00:35:27,155 --> 00:35:37,111 know, it's like people wearing too much makeup or airbrushing their pictures compared to like what they really look like is just so much more interesting. 459 00:35:37,508 --> 00:35:44,379 Yeah, I remember I had a trumpet lesson once with this amazing trumpet player named Nate Woolley. 460 00:35:44,379 --> 00:35:52,004 He's based in New York and we've over the years become colleagues and friends, but uh we were improvising together. 461 00:35:52,004 --> 00:35:56,165 And this was early on in my days as an improviser. 462 00:35:56,346 --> 00:36:01,718 So I was very focused because I was just freshly emerging from my classical training. 463 00:36:01,718 --> 00:36:03,359 I was very focused on getting it right. 464 00:36:03,359 --> 00:36:06,894 I was worried about improvising correctly, which of course, 465 00:36:06,894 --> 00:36:10,367 When you're making music up on the spot, like there's no such thing as correct. 466 00:36:10,367 --> 00:36:13,039 It's like you just make it up. 467 00:36:14,540 --> 00:36:15,961 especially free improvisation. 468 00:36:15,961 --> 00:36:22,417 Obviously some schools of improvisation, like if you're doing kind of straight ahead jazz, stuff like that, there are more rules to follow. 469 00:36:22,417 --> 00:36:25,850 But what I'm talking about is just totally open, totally free. 470 00:36:25,850 --> 00:36:29,373 Play anything that comes to your mind kind of improvisation. 471 00:36:29,373 --> 00:36:31,194 So I was very much focused on getting it right. 472 00:36:31,194 --> 00:36:36,398 And we played together for 10 or 15 minutes and he looked at me and he was like, okay. 473 00:36:36,826 --> 00:36:40,706 That was kind of like a nice handshake, I guess. 474 00:36:41,726 --> 00:36:44,086 It was very surface level. 475 00:36:44,086 --> 00:36:47,186 And he's like, I really want to hear who you are. 476 00:36:47,346 --> 00:36:49,206 Let it be a little ugly. 477 00:36:49,206 --> 00:36:51,966 Let it be a little bit weird. 478 00:36:52,146 --> 00:36:54,506 Let it be beautiful, but just let it be you. 479 00:36:54,506 --> 00:36:55,126 Play. 480 00:36:55,126 --> 00:36:56,466 Really play. 481 00:36:56,706 --> 00:37:01,678 And I had a ton of adrenaline, and I was kind of a little bit like. 482 00:37:01,678 --> 00:37:03,879 How dare he say that, but also a little scared. 483 00:37:03,879 --> 00:37:05,110 So I just kind of went for it. 484 00:37:05,110 --> 00:37:07,579 We played again for another 15 minutes and it was wild. 485 00:37:07,579 --> 00:37:08,581 Like was all over the place. 486 00:37:08,581 --> 00:37:09,632 I made a ton of mistakes. 487 00:37:09,632 --> 00:37:12,783 I cracked, like missed a lot of notes. 488 00:37:13,504 --> 00:37:15,384 You know, I thought it was terrible. 489 00:37:16,305 --> 00:37:25,669 And then at the end of the improvisation, he was just like, he was like, yeah, he's like, you know, you've gotta let the wheels, you've gotta let the wheels almost come off in a 490 00:37:25,669 --> 00:37:26,936 live performance. 491 00:37:26,936 --> 00:37:28,757 in order to know that you're doing something interesting. 492 00:37:28,757 --> 00:37:29,297 That's what he said. 493 00:37:29,297 --> 00:37:39,954 He's like, if you feel like you're just moving forward and everything's super secure and going as planned, you're probably not doing anything interesting as an improviser. 494 00:37:39,954 --> 00:37:47,158 But if you feel like the wheels are about to fall off, you know you're getting where you need to be. 495 00:37:47,158 --> 00:37:48,629 And I've never forgotten that. 496 00:37:48,629 --> 00:37:53,341 And so every time I walk on stage, I'm like, OK, wheels are coming off. 497 00:37:53,659 --> 00:37:54,534 Yeah. 498 00:37:54,688 --> 00:37:56,473 Let's see where we end up. 499 00:37:57,073 --> 00:37:57,673 That's funny. 500 00:37:57,673 --> 00:38:01,977 He's basically the same metaphor when I play with my band. 501 00:38:01,977 --> 00:38:13,406 We like that feeling where it's like you're turning too sharp and the one side of the car is coming off the ground a little bit and there's a chance it's just going to flip over. 502 00:38:14,288 --> 00:38:19,111 But that spot where it just balances and comes back and that's... 503 00:38:19,952 --> 00:38:21,143 It's magic. 504 00:38:21,522 --> 00:38:25,736 fun spot to be because, know, oh, what's going to happen? 505 00:38:25,736 --> 00:38:27,348 It's exciting. 506 00:38:27,789 --> 00:38:30,311 It's uncharted territory a bit. 507 00:38:30,906 --> 00:38:31,321 Exactly. 508 00:38:31,321 --> 00:38:32,874 Yeah. 509 00:38:34,344 --> 00:38:44,404 I'm, I don't know if I said this on the podcast, but I feel like I say it a lot to people around me, but I'm reading this book called Why Greatness Can't Be Planned. 510 00:38:45,384 --> 00:38:48,204 The Myth of the Objective is the subtitle. 511 00:38:48,204 --> 00:38:56,104 And it's all about how when you have a goal and when you know what you want, it like constrains you, it limits you and stuff. 512 00:38:56,104 --> 00:39:02,144 And it comes from the perspective of like computer programmers and all of that. 513 00:39:02,244 --> 00:39:04,352 But the... 514 00:39:05,180 --> 00:39:20,555 great things like you don't know what it is really until you're almost there and it really advocates instead of like trying to get yourself to this goal, go out on a limb and when 515 00:39:20,555 --> 00:39:30,457 you go out on the limb then you find the next limb you can grab onto and then from there you see the next one that you couldn't see two limbs back and it gets you into those 516 00:39:30,457 --> 00:39:32,008 interesting places. 517 00:39:32,602 --> 00:39:38,618 And it's more about pursuing what's interesting and exciting than what's right. 518 00:39:38,658 --> 00:39:45,856 And when I can remember that when I'm making music, it's so much more fun and it's exciting. 519 00:39:45,856 --> 00:39:56,035 And sometimes, yeah, like the car blows up and it doesn't work out, but it's... 520 00:39:56,516 --> 00:39:59,837 At least, even when that happens too, it's still like kind of cool. 521 00:39:59,837 --> 00:40:04,518 eh I guess like kind of like explosions too. 522 00:40:04,938 --> 00:40:11,860 But um because the best you can do when you have that goal in mind is like stuff that's already happened. 523 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,560 Stuff that you've already seen, stuff you've already imagined even. 524 00:40:17,581 --> 00:40:21,822 And yeah, improvisation is a great way to get there. 525 00:40:22,002 --> 00:40:25,623 But like you said too, you can also be like safe about it. 526 00:40:26,169 --> 00:40:27,485 Not really. 527 00:40:27,810 --> 00:40:29,091 You can be. 528 00:40:29,091 --> 00:40:32,835 You can plan it a little too much, which I definitely try not to do. 529 00:40:32,835 --> 00:40:46,307 em But even if you don't want to necessarily be an improvising performer, you can bring elements of improvisation into your workflow in so many different ways. 530 00:40:46,628 --> 00:40:53,413 For example, something that I love to do that's really, really simple and really fun when I am not exactly sure. 531 00:40:53,882 --> 00:40:59,662 Let's say I've got Ableton open and I want to start a new piece of music and I'm not exactly sure where to begin. 532 00:41:00,022 --> 00:41:07,962 And I don't want to just default to my habits of like, okay, I always start with this tool or I always start with this sound or whatever. 533 00:41:08,502 --> 00:41:18,522 I'll grab two or three random audio files from a folder in my computer that I recorded weeks or months or years prior. 534 00:41:18,522 --> 00:41:19,442 And I have no idea. 535 00:41:19,442 --> 00:41:23,762 If I'm lucky, I have no idea what's in them or I have some idea, you know. 536 00:41:23,970 --> 00:41:31,316 And then I'll just pull them in and I'll drop them in the timeline and I'll layer them on top of each other and I'll just hit play and I'll see what I hear. 537 00:41:31,316 --> 00:41:39,923 And that's a version of improvisation in a way, because you're taking things and you're mashing them together in some unpredictable way and you're just listening and you're 538 00:41:39,923 --> 00:41:42,445 seeing what's emerging from that. 539 00:41:42,445 --> 00:41:49,751 And then from there, there might be one little sound that you really like or one cool little combination of sounds from the layers. 540 00:41:49,751 --> 00:41:52,653 And then you could just take that and that could be your starting point. 541 00:41:53,262 --> 00:41:55,634 That's kind of like your first limb, right? 542 00:41:55,634 --> 00:42:00,389 And then from there, you're like, well, now that I've heard that, I've got an idea for my next step. 543 00:42:00,970 --> 00:42:03,132 And you didn't have it planned out. 544 00:42:03,132 --> 00:42:09,558 You just threw paint on the wall, so to speak, and then ran with what you had. 545 00:42:10,747 --> 00:42:15,210 Yeah, it kind of makes me think of something I wanted to bring up with you too. 546 00:42:15,691 --> 00:42:22,196 You were hanging out with Andrew Huang and you guys were making music without hearing what the other person was making. 547 00:42:22,657 --> 00:42:28,492 And, you know, I think that's just so cool because both of you are very accomplished musicians. 548 00:42:28,492 --> 00:42:32,445 You guys know your way around theory and everything. 549 00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:42,643 probably at a place that a lot of people that haven't started yet wish they could be at so they could start. 550 00:42:42,643 --> 00:42:45,804 And here you guys are just throwing all that out the window. 551 00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:55,069 And just to see what happens for the sake of the excitement of it and how are we gonna react to it now. 552 00:42:55,129 --> 00:42:59,211 I just think that's a really cool way to... 553 00:42:59,747 --> 00:43:10,346 It doesn't have to be every time you make music, but to find little things like that, to just stir it up a little, you know, let's just see what happens. 554 00:43:10,712 --> 00:43:16,347 especially when you're feeling, you know, a little stuck or a little in your head about the right next move. 555 00:43:16,347 --> 00:43:21,381 Like, that's the right, that's such a good moment to reach for one of these types of ideas. 556 00:43:21,622 --> 00:43:28,146 You know, instead of letting yourself get totally paralyzed by what's the right next move, right? 557 00:43:28,788 --> 00:43:31,810 In this track or this piece, you could just say, OK, I'm going to take a moment. 558 00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:34,032 I'm just going to throw paint on the wall. 559 00:43:34,032 --> 00:43:35,853 I'm just going to grab five samples. 560 00:43:35,853 --> 00:43:36,760 oh 561 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,471 from five different folders and I'm going to play them all at the same time. 562 00:43:39,471 --> 00:43:44,474 And it might be terrible, it gets you moving, right? 563 00:43:44,474 --> 00:43:47,275 It gets you moving in some way. 564 00:43:47,275 --> 00:43:51,147 And even going, wow, that was terrible. 565 00:43:51,147 --> 00:43:52,368 Let me try five others. 566 00:43:52,368 --> 00:43:53,248 That's progress. 567 00:43:53,248 --> 00:44:00,962 That's forward movement, as opposed to just sitting and worrying and wondering what the right move is. 568 00:44:01,048 --> 00:44:04,341 And this project with Andrew, it's something that I call imaginative listening. 569 00:44:04,341 --> 00:44:13,968 I've been doing this with people for years and I've got a couple videos on my YouTube channel of different people I've collaborated with in this way. 570 00:44:14,369 --> 00:44:19,083 You don't pre-plan, you don't talk about a key or a tempo or anything. 571 00:44:19,083 --> 00:44:30,421 There's no pre-planning and you can't hear each other and you're basically recording a duo where you are playing at the same time but you have no idea what the other person's doing. 572 00:44:30,636 --> 00:44:32,617 and then you just superimpose the tracks. 573 00:44:32,617 --> 00:44:37,580 It's kind of like what I was just talking about, where you take files from two different folders and just drop them together. 574 00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:39,631 It's just that it involves another human. 575 00:44:39,791 --> 00:44:54,799 And the reason why I call it imaginative listening is because the only thing you can do is imagine what might they be doing and listen in the deepest and most curious way possible 576 00:44:54,799 --> 00:45:00,332 to both yourself and to all the possible sounds around you in the world. 577 00:45:00,930 --> 00:45:04,705 It's a really powerful exercise. 578 00:45:05,455 --> 00:45:12,878 It's cool because you might feel some pressure for it to be good, but you've got the built-in excuse. 579 00:45:13,058 --> 00:45:14,619 Like you're off the hook immediately. 580 00:45:14,619 --> 00:45:16,060 Like I can't hear what he's doing. 581 00:45:16,060 --> 00:45:17,740 I don't know what's going to happen. 582 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:29,645 So you get to be, I love things like that, have like a pressure to them, but because of the pressure, it cancels it out. 583 00:45:30,126 --> 00:45:31,955 Like, like that's like the kind of thing. 584 00:45:31,955 --> 00:45:33,295 if. 585 00:45:33,383 --> 00:45:40,803 If I don't know how you guys might do the videos, but I assume it was going to be whatever it was going to be no matter what. 586 00:45:41,663 --> 00:45:46,223 And anyone watching it would be like, well, yeah, I mean, can't blame them. 587 00:45:46,223 --> 00:45:48,003 They can't hear each other. 588 00:45:48,143 --> 00:45:53,103 So you're kind of like free to be anything. 589 00:45:53,163 --> 00:45:56,980 if it's terrible, like, yeah, OK, fair enough. 590 00:45:56,980 --> 00:45:59,113 experiment to begin with. 591 00:45:59,113 --> 00:46:03,537 So yeah, if it's terrible, then well, nothing lost really. 592 00:46:03,537 --> 00:46:08,062 Yeah, but I will say more often than not, it's not terrible. 593 00:46:08,062 --> 00:46:10,544 More often than not, it's really cool. 594 00:46:10,544 --> 00:46:19,092 em just like more often than not, when you grab random samples from your computer and put them together, there's something cool that you hear. 595 00:46:19,092 --> 00:46:19,713 And I think... 596 00:46:19,713 --> 00:46:21,394 em 597 00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:26,013 There is a state of mind that you kind of have to be in, an open, of curious state of mind. 598 00:46:26,013 --> 00:46:36,262 Like if you're expecting it to come out like a, you know, traditional key, four on the floor kind of song structure, you'll probably be disappointed because the likelihood of 599 00:46:36,262 --> 00:46:39,904 that happening with two people who can't hear each other is slim. 600 00:46:39,945 --> 00:46:50,653 But if you're open to something that's a little more, you know, unusual and experimental, em there's always something really magical that happens with these collaborations. 601 00:46:50,653 --> 00:46:51,954 m 602 00:46:52,046 --> 00:47:03,513 What I find is that there's combinations of sounds and gestures and musical moments that I would never do if I was letting my brain lead. 603 00:47:04,094 --> 00:47:04,414 Right? 604 00:47:04,414 --> 00:47:10,686 Like if I was thinking, what's the next correct move or what's the music theory correct thing to do? 605 00:47:10,686 --> 00:47:16,842 I would never do some of the things that happen in this, like, imaginative listening kind of 606 00:47:17,126 --> 00:47:18,586 Right. 607 00:47:18,586 --> 00:47:19,366 Yeah. 608 00:47:19,366 --> 00:47:25,166 I mean, I get that sometimes even playing with other people, you just don't look at what they're doing. 609 00:47:25,406 --> 00:47:30,266 And you try to figure something out and, oh yeah, you're not supposed to play that. 610 00:47:30,266 --> 00:47:32,786 No, but hey, look at that. 611 00:47:34,326 --> 00:47:41,846 This freedom to just, to suck, like to be terrible is liberating, really. 612 00:47:41,846 --> 00:47:46,206 And it opens new paths and new ideas all the time. 613 00:47:46,871 --> 00:47:56,619 Yeah, that reminds me of em there's a recording engineer that I've worked with a bunch and he always used to do something that he would call the dare to fail take. 614 00:47:56,700 --> 00:48:05,248 So after you've kind of got it and you've got your recording done and you nailed it, it's good, or at least it's good enough, you've got a good take. 615 00:48:05,248 --> 00:48:11,754 Then he'll be like, okay, okay, we're all good here, we've got what we need, let's do a dare to fail or a dare to suck or whatever. 616 00:48:11,972 --> 00:48:14,103 take where literally anything could happen. 617 00:48:14,103 --> 00:48:15,063 You could fall on your face. 618 00:48:15,063 --> 00:48:17,265 It doesn't matter because we've already got what we need. 619 00:48:17,445 --> 00:48:23,138 And I swear 99 % of the time that's the take that gets used because people just are like, okay, cool. 620 00:48:23,138 --> 00:48:24,989 They relax a little. 621 00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:26,950 They have a little more fun. 622 00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:29,191 They take a few more chances. 623 00:48:29,191 --> 00:48:32,303 They might make a mistake or two, but they don't let it phase them. 624 00:48:32,303 --> 00:48:33,554 They just keep going. 625 00:48:33,554 --> 00:48:42,158 And there's just always this energy that's so vibrant in those dare to fail takes. 626 00:48:42,650 --> 00:48:49,901 em So I've always, I always try to remind myself that, you know, like, let's just do one more and like, let's let it rip. 627 00:48:50,823 --> 00:48:52,055 And if it sucks, it sucks. 628 00:48:52,055 --> 00:48:53,206 It doesn't matter. 629 00:48:53,561 --> 00:49:05,933 that Aerosmith does that like once every so often when they rehearse or maybe it's recording something that's like a dare to suck or kind of that idea where listen 630 00:49:05,933 --> 00:49:08,254 everything is fair game tonight. 631 00:49:10,078 --> 00:49:14,446 I think it's a really clever, clever thing to do. 632 00:49:14,708 --> 00:49:16,170 It opens up a lot. 633 00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:19,271 I love that kind of stuff. 634 00:49:19,271 --> 00:49:23,533 It's my favorite part, I think, of playing with my band that I play with. 635 00:49:23,533 --> 00:49:29,746 Because we don't bring songs to the practice. 636 00:49:29,746 --> 00:49:32,958 I don't write a song and say, OK, guys, this is your part. 637 00:49:33,381 --> 00:49:47,474 We just play and something starts to happen and start blabbering and into the mic and every once in a while, like if you just have at it long enough, things come together and 638 00:49:47,474 --> 00:49:54,600 things happen and next thing you know, you're pursuing it and it's stuff you would never do. 639 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,293 Like you said, you just wouldn't do that on purpose. 640 00:49:58,474 --> 00:49:59,574 Happens. 641 00:49:59,790 --> 00:50:00,691 Right. 642 00:50:00,871 --> 00:50:06,973 Yeah, I think the key to what you just said that, or what I really heard is that you just have to start. 643 00:50:06,973 --> 00:50:09,713 And I know that sometimes it's a little annoying. 644 00:50:09,993 --> 00:50:15,905 It can be annoying to hear someone be like, what's the best way to get good at something or to do this or do that? 645 00:50:15,905 --> 00:50:21,396 just start, you know, can be a bit of a frustrating answer sometimes, but I think it's really true. 646 00:50:21,417 --> 00:50:24,247 You know, just start with a single note. 647 00:50:24,247 --> 00:50:25,748 Start with a single brushstroke. 648 00:50:25,748 --> 00:50:26,848 Start with 649 00:50:27,158 --> 00:50:36,161 a single sample, turn on your mic and start mumbling into the microphone and it might not all be golden and it definitely won't be in fact. 650 00:50:36,161 --> 00:50:38,882 It won't all be perfect, but it gets you moving. 651 00:50:38,882 --> 00:50:42,343 And when you have momentum and you're moving, it's like you're climbing the tree. 652 00:50:42,343 --> 00:50:45,233 You've got your limb and then, now you can see something you couldn't see. 653 00:50:45,233 --> 00:50:54,066 It's, you know, and it's fun to come back full circle to the fun part, which is also, you know, why, why we're here. 654 00:50:54,237 --> 00:50:57,638 It's really important to keep that in mind, the fun part. 655 00:50:57,858 --> 00:50:58,898 That is a great way. 656 00:50:58,898 --> 00:51:01,358 And you kind of just play the numbers game, really. 657 00:51:01,358 --> 00:51:03,213 You just show up enough. 658 00:51:03,213 --> 00:51:04,256 Exactly. 659 00:51:04,938 --> 00:51:15,837 And I like that a lot and I'm really more and more just buying into I'm working as fast as I can and I'm just leaving stuff behind making stuff and that's where I was. 660 00:51:15,837 --> 00:51:17,548 It's like a diary. 661 00:51:17,649 --> 00:51:20,161 I'm not trying to make the masterpiece today. 662 00:51:20,161 --> 00:51:27,617 I'm just making it and that's where I was today and onto the next one. 663 00:51:27,617 --> 00:51:34,290 And I think every time you go through that process too, does, I don't know if it gets easier, but 664 00:51:34,714 --> 00:51:40,525 Maybe it gets easier, you just start to believe in it more and more. 665 00:51:40,738 --> 00:51:47,541 yeah, it builds that trust that in yourself that like, like you will figure it out. 666 00:51:47,541 --> 00:51:51,162 You know, not every day will be your masterpiece. 667 00:51:51,303 --> 00:52:03,008 But yeah, like you said, if you do it enough, you know, you'll land somewhere, you know, when the wheels go on the car and you the reason why you can do that and have fun with it 668 00:52:03,008 --> 00:52:09,230 and not think that's terrifying is that you've done it so many times that you know, no matter where I land. 669 00:52:09,316 --> 00:52:10,607 I'll figure it out. 670 00:52:10,747 --> 00:52:11,978 Something cool will come of it. 671 00:52:11,978 --> 00:52:27,512 And it just takes jumping in and getting started with what you have and being willing to suck at it for a while as you build that experience and build that confidence in yourself. 672 00:52:28,257 --> 00:52:33,000 And if you do it regularly, there's always tomorrow. 673 00:52:33,241 --> 00:52:41,257 you can almost just throw every day away in that sense that it's not a big deal really. 674 00:52:41,257 --> 00:52:50,274 I mean, there's so many bigger problems in the world and there's so many more important things, you know, to just... 675 00:52:51,015 --> 00:52:53,937 It's real sad when you let all that... 676 00:52:54,077 --> 00:53:04,573 self-doubt and negativity creep into the thing that's supposed to be your release, your expression, or whatever you want to call it. 677 00:53:04,955 --> 00:53:07,078 Because it happens very easily. 678 00:53:07,078 --> 00:53:07,839 It really does. 679 00:53:07,839 --> 00:53:09,501 oh 680 00:53:09,555 --> 00:53:17,617 Yeah, it's easy to put so much pressure on yourself about, you know, not just getting it right, but just believing in your ability, you know. 681 00:53:18,897 --> 00:53:19,858 Can I do this? 682 00:53:19,858 --> 00:53:21,478 Does anyone care? 683 00:53:21,538 --> 00:53:22,619 All that kind of stuff. 684 00:53:22,619 --> 00:53:32,531 I mean, I hear it all the time from my students, but I also, there's like, and I think it's important to say that, you know, everyone feels those things and thinks those things. 685 00:53:32,531 --> 00:53:34,622 Even the artist who you think. 686 00:53:35,562 --> 00:53:39,810 you being whoever is listening to this, em is like... 687 00:53:41,786 --> 00:53:43,766 immune to those thoughts. 688 00:53:43,766 --> 00:53:45,786 The person who used like, oh, they're just so productive. 689 00:53:45,786 --> 00:53:47,206 They're so amazing. 690 00:53:47,206 --> 00:53:48,606 They make amazing records. 691 00:53:48,606 --> 00:53:50,366 Everything they make is amazing. 692 00:53:50,366 --> 00:53:59,226 Behind the scenes, I promise you, there are piles of discarded tracks, discarded demos, things that never see the light of day. 693 00:53:59,226 --> 00:54:04,326 And they have days where they're just like, oh, I'm not feeling good about this. 694 00:54:04,326 --> 00:54:05,166 I don't know. 695 00:54:05,166 --> 00:54:06,466 Maybe I should scrap this. 696 00:54:06,466 --> 00:54:07,326 Does anyone care? 697 00:54:07,326 --> 00:54:08,926 Like, we're all human. 698 00:54:08,926 --> 00:54:11,044 The difference is that they 699 00:54:11,044 --> 00:54:12,836 They're like, there's tomorrow. 700 00:54:13,078 --> 00:54:16,124 And then they pack it up, they come back the next day, and they just get back to work. 701 00:54:16,124 --> 00:54:19,251 And they do it again and again and again and again. 702 00:54:19,251 --> 00:54:23,138 And they don't let that stop them fully. 703 00:54:24,465 --> 00:54:36,383 I've spoken to people here on right in this seat, just like you, but you're like, even you, even you have the doubt, even you're unsure. 704 00:54:36,383 --> 00:54:40,486 Like, I'm sure people are looking at you being like, well, what do you mean? 705 00:54:40,486 --> 00:54:47,181 How could you, everything you do, you seem comfortable and you know how to do this stuff. 706 00:54:47,181 --> 00:54:50,022 You're not afraid to jump into a weird new toy. 707 00:54:50,022 --> 00:54:53,404 You've never even you feel that, but it's. 708 00:54:54,093 --> 00:55:06,281 It's not that I wish those feelings on everybody else, but it is a little bit comforting to know that everybody pretty much confesses that they have these feelings of the doubt 709 00:55:06,281 --> 00:55:08,762 and the, can't do that again. 710 00:55:09,003 --> 00:55:12,265 They make something great and it's like, how am I ever going to do that again? 711 00:55:12,425 --> 00:55:17,668 So even the success sometimes brings it on. 712 00:55:17,818 --> 00:55:18,779 Absolutely. 713 00:55:18,779 --> 00:55:23,601 Yeah, and I think the thing that's really important is just, okay, so we all have those feelings. 714 00:55:23,601 --> 00:55:24,442 We're human. 715 00:55:24,442 --> 00:55:25,702 Welcome to the club. 716 00:55:25,702 --> 00:55:26,703 Now what? 717 00:55:26,703 --> 00:55:28,184 What are you gonna do, right? 718 00:55:28,184 --> 00:55:30,945 Like, you could let it derail you. 719 00:55:30,945 --> 00:55:33,126 You could believe all of those thoughts. 720 00:55:33,126 --> 00:55:34,297 This is a really big thing. 721 00:55:34,297 --> 00:55:35,518 I'm gonna go on a tiny tangent. 722 00:55:35,518 --> 00:55:36,073 I hope that's okay. 723 00:55:36,073 --> 00:55:36,978 It might be a big tangent. 724 00:55:36,978 --> 00:55:39,970 I don't know, but you know, a lot of the time... 725 00:55:39,970 --> 00:55:49,175 we have these thoughts, these things, maybe they're voices in our head or thoughts that we have on repeat that we've actually kind of adopted from somewhere else. 726 00:55:49,175 --> 00:55:50,776 Like, no one cares. 727 00:55:50,776 --> 00:55:53,177 My music is too noisy, which is a big one. 728 00:55:53,177 --> 00:56:02,903 used to, you know, I, before I released my first record, I sat on it for a long time because I was too worried that people were going to think it was too weird, too noisy, too 729 00:56:02,903 --> 00:56:05,764 experimental, you know, and they just wouldn't like it. 730 00:56:05,784 --> 00:56:09,346 And that really became like, I don't know where that came from. 731 00:56:09,538 --> 00:56:21,707 I heard it from someone or I made it up and I started to really think that it was a truth, like a uh objective truth and I started to believe it like it was a truth. 732 00:56:21,727 --> 00:56:37,058 And um for you it might be like, know, no one cares or I'm not a good singer or whatever it is, there might just be this story that you've gotten from someone else or you've. 733 00:56:37,454 --> 00:56:40,815 felt one day and then you've started to really believe as a fact. 734 00:56:40,815 --> 00:56:48,817 And I think it's just so important to remember that they're just stories and they're not objective truths. 735 00:56:49,217 --> 00:56:51,808 Not unless you make them objective truths, right? 736 00:56:51,808 --> 00:56:54,068 Like you could change that story. 737 00:56:54,068 --> 00:57:02,241 You could swap that story out for any other story and your whole outlook on life and creativity could change. 738 00:57:02,241 --> 00:57:07,320 So instead of like if you find yourself thinking to yourself every day, I'm a terrible singer. 739 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:16,174 and you commit to that story and you believe it, you're gonna have a hard go at things and you're probably not gonna grow too much as a singer. 740 00:57:16,174 --> 00:57:22,016 But if you choose the story like, I'm learning every time I get in my studio and sing, I get a little better. 741 00:57:22,797 --> 00:57:25,878 Now you've got a door wide open, right? 742 00:57:25,898 --> 00:57:36,206 And I just think it's so important to remember the power of our thoughts and the fact that these things that feel like they are fixed, absolute truths are not. 743 00:57:36,206 --> 00:57:37,637 fixed absolute truths. 744 00:57:37,637 --> 00:57:41,388 Like they're not like, you know, the law of gravity or whatever. 745 00:57:41,608 --> 00:57:49,331 It's just something that we've heard and that we might genuinely feel, but it's kind of optional. 746 00:57:49,532 --> 00:57:59,086 So that's been really, really impactful for me is remembering in those moments when I am having a kind of crummy day and nothing's going well and I'm having a moment where I'm 747 00:57:59,086 --> 00:58:00,356 just feeling down on myself. 748 00:58:00,356 --> 00:58:04,908 can really, I try to interrupt myself and remind myself like Sarah. 749 00:58:05,390 --> 00:58:08,161 The way that I talk to myself about this is optional. 750 00:58:08,161 --> 00:58:09,891 Like I get to choose. 751 00:58:10,091 --> 00:58:16,113 Do I say, here we are yet again, not finishing a track, you suck at this. 752 00:58:16,113 --> 00:58:21,334 Or am I saying to myself, I know I always figure it out. 753 00:58:21,334 --> 00:58:26,276 If I come back into the studio and I keep an open mind, I always figure it out. 754 00:58:26,776 --> 00:58:30,737 Two stories, two very different outcomes, right? 755 00:58:31,417 --> 00:58:35,150 And I just think that's, yeah, I think it's worth. 756 00:58:35,150 --> 00:58:37,461 worth spending some time reflecting on. 757 00:58:38,260 --> 00:58:41,103 It is, because thoughts just pop in our heads. 758 00:58:41,103 --> 00:58:44,165 They're just sort of like these automatic things. 759 00:58:44,425 --> 00:58:48,949 And it's very easy to just latch onto them and buy into them. 760 00:58:48,949 --> 00:58:52,952 um And you don't have to. 761 00:58:52,952 --> 00:58:56,876 um I've learned that a lot. 762 00:58:56,876 --> 00:59:01,739 There's some meditation, using like an app to meditate and 763 00:59:02,230 --> 00:59:13,416 I found it, where it really became clear to me was in my teaching as a high school teacher, because there's some days where things maybe they weren't working out, the kids 764 00:59:13,416 --> 00:59:19,048 weren't excited about it or whatever it is, or I don't know what I'm going to do next. 765 00:59:20,130 --> 00:59:21,531 And then I start spiraling. 766 00:59:21,531 --> 00:59:22,892 It's like, no. 767 00:59:23,438 --> 00:59:25,409 how did you even get to be a teacher? 768 00:59:25,409 --> 00:59:37,256 All these parents trust you with their kids and they spend 40 minutes with you every day and all you did was just sit through classes and turn in garbagey assignments and here you 769 00:59:37,256 --> 00:59:38,096 are. 770 00:59:39,477 --> 00:59:52,504 like, you know, next thing you know, I'm imagining the news covering my story of like phony exposed, you know, like getting taken out in handcuffs or something because, but 771 00:59:52,504 --> 00:59:53,111 then. 772 00:59:53,111 --> 00:59:56,502 It's like I'm watching that movie. 773 00:59:56,983 --> 00:59:59,283 Like you're a terrible person. 774 01:00:00,464 --> 01:00:04,446 My dog's gonna bite me now or something because I'm horrible. 775 01:00:04,806 --> 01:00:08,147 It's like you just take it out and put it in the movie. 776 01:00:08,168 --> 01:00:09,868 Hey, you figured it out before. 777 01:00:09,868 --> 01:00:10,889 You've been here. 778 01:00:10,889 --> 01:00:15,191 You've gotten stuck and you're gonna do your best. 779 01:00:15,191 --> 01:00:16,371 You're gonna try. 780 01:00:16,371 --> 01:00:17,372 You're gonna... 781 01:00:17,986 --> 01:00:25,482 You know, just remind yourself, um you're figuring it out too, and if it goes terribly, it's not the end of the world. 782 01:00:25,482 --> 01:00:30,246 But it is really just kind of like choosing. 783 01:00:31,027 --> 01:00:35,410 It's sometimes very hard to be aware of it when it's happening. 784 01:00:35,671 --> 01:00:41,715 But if you can catch it and just change it. 785 01:00:42,037 --> 01:00:42,364 Yeah. 786 01:00:42,364 --> 01:00:43,104 this... 787 01:00:43,104 --> 01:00:44,266 It doesn't have to be true. 788 01:00:44,266 --> 01:00:44,846 It's just... 789 01:00:44,846 --> 01:00:47,688 It has to just pick one that serves you better. 790 01:00:48,670 --> 01:00:53,113 Really, reality is just our own perception on things anyway. 791 01:00:53,113 --> 01:00:56,443 So, might as well pick a good one. 792 01:00:56,443 --> 01:00:59,074 choose just a slightly better feeling thought. 793 01:00:59,074 --> 01:01:08,137 It doesn't, you don't have to go all the way from, um you know, I suck at music and no one cares to, you know, something that's just so far on the other side. 794 01:01:08,137 --> 01:01:13,818 Like, I'm a, you know, whatever, a world class, everyone, like, because then your brain's not going to believe you. 795 01:01:13,818 --> 01:01:16,749 Your brain's going be like, this is ridiculous. 796 01:01:16,749 --> 01:01:20,088 But a slightly better feeling thought, like a thought that's 797 01:01:20,088 --> 01:01:30,323 Like every day I'm getting a little better, or I'm figuring this out, or I'm willing to try, or um I know that if I commit to this, something cool will happen. 798 01:01:30,323 --> 01:01:36,454 Just something that when you say it in your body, you have a little bit more kind of hope and openness. 799 01:01:36,454 --> 01:01:38,746 That's where you want to go. 800 01:01:38,947 --> 01:01:40,297 And it can be so powerful. 801 01:01:40,297 --> 01:01:46,570 If you do that every day or a couple times a day, to me now, this is just built into who I am. 802 01:01:47,278 --> 01:01:51,140 I'm always kind of course correcting the way that I'm thinking about things, but it does take practice. 803 01:01:51,140 --> 01:01:53,580 I used to walk around with a notebook actually. 804 01:01:54,121 --> 01:02:04,755 And whenever I would notice a kind of limiting thought or something that would make me feel bummed out, would actually write it down and then I would like sit there and 805 01:02:04,755 --> 01:02:08,927 consciously like be like, okay, what's a new, I'd like design a new thought instead. 806 01:02:10,007 --> 01:02:13,493 And then I try it on, like putting on a new hat and be like, yeah, this one feels better. 807 01:02:13,493 --> 01:02:14,799 I'm like, I'm gonna go with this one for a while. 808 01:02:14,799 --> 01:02:16,398 And I'd circle it on the page. 809 01:02:16,398 --> 01:02:20,192 And I just kept doing that over and over again until it kind of became second nature. 810 01:02:20,192 --> 01:02:21,892 uh 811 01:02:21,892 --> 01:02:28,972 It's funny, but sometimes you realize you're saying things to yourself you would never say to your worst enemy. 812 01:02:29,632 --> 01:02:34,032 Or you're saying things to yourself if you heard someone else say, you'd be like, stop it! 813 01:02:34,032 --> 01:02:35,612 You're being stupid. 814 01:02:36,252 --> 01:02:38,111 You'd smack them on the back of the head. 815 01:02:38,111 --> 01:02:40,232 You're being an idiot, come on. 816 01:02:40,292 --> 01:02:42,792 This is a pity party or something. 817 01:02:43,332 --> 01:02:50,622 But sometimes, whether it's writing it down or just paying attention to it, you can... 818 01:02:50,622 --> 01:02:55,376 realize what you're going through. 819 01:02:55,978 --> 01:02:58,860 It's very hard to do all the time. 820 01:03:01,564 --> 01:03:12,054 But yeah, I think that's good advice you have that maybe it doesn't have to be like, I'm the best actually, because that's not a good place to be either, I don't think. 821 01:03:12,212 --> 01:03:13,023 yeah. 822 01:03:13,668 --> 01:03:19,948 But yeah, just a little bit of a, yeah, you're having a bad day with this. 823 01:03:21,448 --> 01:03:22,968 Can you make it better? 824 01:03:23,068 --> 01:03:27,668 Can you make it fun, like you said, is a good way to, you know, just make it fun. 825 01:03:27,728 --> 01:03:32,208 So I'm to really lean into the stupid song and make it as stupid as we can. 826 01:03:32,386 --> 01:03:33,451 Yeah. 827 01:03:33,923 --> 01:03:34,815 Yeah. 828 01:03:36,844 --> 01:03:38,409 It's so much mental stuff though. 829 01:03:38,409 --> 01:03:39,431 It's funny. 830 01:03:40,738 --> 01:03:42,789 It's a big part of being a musician, right? 831 01:03:42,789 --> 01:03:45,671 mean, it's a technique. 832 01:03:45,671 --> 01:03:50,773 We started early on talking about theory and all of this technical stuff, and that's a big part of it. 833 01:03:50,773 --> 01:03:52,895 And studying all that's important. 834 01:03:52,895 --> 01:03:57,387 But yeah, the inner game, the mindset stuff is huge. 835 01:03:57,387 --> 01:04:03,030 I didn't realize how much of a role it played really early on in my musical life. 836 01:04:03,030 --> 01:04:10,702 But now I think I spend just as much effort, if not more, working on my 837 01:04:10,702 --> 01:04:20,598 like what's going on up here mentally um as I do, you know, working on production technique and studying new gear and all that kind of stuff. 838 01:04:21,724 --> 01:04:29,597 Yeah, they kind of go hand in hand because you get a little more confidence, but there's never going to be a point where you feel like you're good enough. 839 01:04:29,597 --> 01:04:33,588 And I like that, though, because that means there's more to learn. 840 01:04:33,588 --> 01:04:38,449 There's like, I could get if I was as good as I was ever going to get. 841 01:04:40,050 --> 01:04:42,031 like, oh, that's OK. 842 01:04:42,031 --> 01:04:44,491 That's like the finish line or something. 843 01:04:44,558 --> 01:04:45,278 Yeah, I know. 844 01:04:45,278 --> 01:04:53,763 I've always heard there's some, I can't remember who it was right now, a really amazing saxophone player, I think, who was like, the day that I figured it all out and can play 845 01:04:53,763 --> 01:04:58,305 everything I need to play, it's the day the horn goes in the case and it never comes back out. 846 01:04:58,305 --> 01:05:01,047 Basically like, once I know it all, what's the point? 847 01:05:01,047 --> 01:05:07,190 Because music is about, you know, it's a discovery. 848 01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:14,414 It's about re-learning who you are and what's possible. 849 01:05:15,034 --> 01:05:21,582 It kind of just, yeah, it's not about getting it right and knowing all the answers. 850 01:05:23,224 --> 01:05:37,266 Yeah, I think Keith Richards talked about his guitar being the puzzle and like every time there's a new piece or the pieces go together in a different way and it's not a fixed 851 01:05:37,266 --> 01:05:38,417 thing. 852 01:05:39,078 --> 01:05:45,943 Yeah, that's a good way to look at it think because it just keeps it fascinating all the time. 853 01:05:49,102 --> 01:05:51,612 Can we talk about the course? 854 01:05:51,973 --> 01:05:55,373 The exciting time of the year, it's back. 855 01:05:55,914 --> 01:06:04,556 So if people are listening relatively soon to when this comes out, learning sound and synthesis is coming back. 856 01:06:04,812 --> 01:06:09,137 so this is your course that comes along, I think twice a year maybe. 857 01:06:09,137 --> 01:06:16,991 um I have people from my music production club and people that I interact with online. 858 01:06:16,991 --> 01:06:21,454 and like our Discord and stuff that have been in it and they love it and they get a lot out of it. 859 01:06:21,454 --> 01:06:30,321 On a lot of levels, I think this conversation probably proves that, that it's not just learning sound and synthesis. 860 01:06:30,321 --> 01:06:33,773 There's like... 861 01:06:33,773 --> 01:06:36,785 It's more than that, I think, that you're offering people. 862 01:06:38,871 --> 01:06:47,498 Well, I'm even looking at like, I actually just left this picture that you're playing around with a couple of the Moog defams and stuff, but you got the quotes from what people 863 01:06:47,498 --> 01:06:56,326 said and, you know, sucking is something, sucking at something is the first step to getting really great at it, which is awesome. 864 01:06:56,326 --> 01:07:00,539 So well put, be open to what you don't know, go deeper. 865 01:07:00,539 --> 01:07:07,617 there's a lot of, none of that is like turn the oscillator on to, you know, none of. 866 01:07:07,617 --> 01:07:08,319 that kind of thing. 867 01:07:08,319 --> 01:07:14,996 But I know that's what you're offering too, so it'd be great to hear about it. 868 01:07:14,996 --> 01:07:15,566 design. 869 01:07:15,566 --> 01:07:22,041 Because again, like this whole conversation has been such a great example of that balance. 870 01:07:22,041 --> 01:07:30,236 em So the class that I teach is absolutely about how to make music with synthesizers. 871 01:07:30,236 --> 01:07:40,754 It's about how to learn sound synthesis, all of the technical nitty gritty stuff, LFOs and sequencers and oscillators and clocks and all that good stuff. 872 01:07:40,754 --> 01:07:41,688 But then, 873 01:07:41,688 --> 01:07:43,559 That's just one piece of the puzzle. 874 01:07:43,559 --> 01:07:52,164 And I think that if you just focus on the technical how-to, you can become a technician, but there's more to it. 875 01:07:52,324 --> 01:08:00,369 I'm really interested in helping people grow as artists and creative thinkers and honestly, as people. 876 01:08:00,369 --> 01:08:10,212 so the technical how-to is a big part, but then there's another huge part of the class that's really focused on all of these kinds of conversations. 877 01:08:10,212 --> 01:08:14,524 Like when we walk into the studio to sit down at our instrument, what goes through our head? 878 01:08:14,565 --> 01:08:21,589 What are some different workflows that we can use to make music and to pull new stuff out of ourselves? 879 01:08:21,589 --> 01:08:29,074 How do we balance practicing and studying with producing or creating? 880 01:08:29,074 --> 01:08:33,657 um How do we work through creative obstacles and blocks? 881 01:08:33,657 --> 01:08:34,850 uh 882 01:08:34,850 --> 01:08:39,273 around sharing our music or around getting started or how do we know when something's done? 883 01:08:39,273 --> 01:08:49,130 Like all of these big questions that are really not about synthesis, they just apply generally to being a musician, we definitely spend a lot of time diving deep into. 884 01:08:49,130 --> 01:09:03,910 And I think that em it makes it more fun for me as a teacher to kind of have that broader um range, but it also makes it a lot more 885 01:09:04,012 --> 01:09:13,745 meaningful for the people who are in the class because they're, you know, they're not just getting the stuff that you could get in a manual, right? 886 01:09:13,845 --> 01:09:16,006 Connect this and that to get that sound. 887 01:09:16,006 --> 01:09:24,828 They're getting that, but then they're also getting the like, okay, and now here are all these ways to apply this creatively and think about this in a new way and grow your own 888 01:09:24,828 --> 01:09:28,529 voice as an artist in the meantime. 889 01:09:28,882 --> 01:09:30,390 Does that make sense? 890 01:09:30,643 --> 01:09:32,285 It makes a lot of sense. 891 01:09:32,285 --> 01:09:34,707 I understand that. 892 01:09:36,169 --> 01:09:44,758 Funny thing too is you can understand it intellectually, but in practice it's still always challenging to implement. 893 01:09:46,260 --> 01:09:48,302 So it's good to have. 894 01:09:49,068 --> 01:09:51,071 other people going through it too. 895 01:09:51,071 --> 01:10:01,338 really is like one of the things I love about having conversations like this is that to kind of sort through it and remind yourself of it and understand like how you deal with it 896 01:10:01,338 --> 01:10:03,110 and how you think about it. 897 01:10:03,799 --> 01:10:05,190 How can I pull that in? 898 01:10:05,190 --> 01:10:06,981 And you said be better. 899 01:10:06,981 --> 01:10:18,886 I think he said be better people or have better lives, but so often I feel like we're talking about music, but it's the metaphor for like how to live because these things, 900 01:10:18,886 --> 01:10:19,747 the... 901 01:10:20,255 --> 01:10:21,566 Nobody thinks I'm a good artist. 902 01:10:21,566 --> 01:10:22,998 No one cares or something. 903 01:10:22,998 --> 01:10:30,465 It's the same thing when you're with people and you get a weird text and you're like, oh, are they mad? 904 01:10:30,465 --> 01:10:31,126 They're mad at me. 905 01:10:31,126 --> 01:10:31,646 I knew it. 906 01:10:31,646 --> 01:10:35,290 And then you write the whole story of why they're mad at you. 907 01:10:35,290 --> 01:10:36,933 And it's complete fiction. 908 01:10:36,933 --> 01:10:38,632 It doesn't exist. 909 01:10:40,295 --> 01:10:42,196 So it's nice to have that stuff. 910 01:10:42,196 --> 01:10:45,018 And I think it's so cool that 911 01:10:45,535 --> 01:10:47,655 you're bringing that to people. 912 01:10:48,076 --> 01:10:52,786 Because these quotes I'm looking at, it's OK if it takes time. 913 01:10:52,786 --> 01:10:53,986 It's OK if it doesn't click right away. 914 01:10:53,986 --> 01:10:54,848 It's OK to have questions. 915 01:10:54,848 --> 01:10:56,038 It's OK. 916 01:10:56,038 --> 01:10:57,578 It's how you know you're growing. 917 01:10:57,578 --> 01:11:01,990 You could be talking about anything, really, and that would apply to. 918 01:11:01,990 --> 01:11:12,722 And that's not in the technical manual or the diagram that shows the signal flow. 919 01:11:15,007 --> 01:11:23,641 You know, I started to work all of that into the class because um I don't know if we've already talked about this. 920 01:11:23,641 --> 01:11:24,422 I don't think we have. 921 01:11:24,422 --> 01:11:32,316 But when I first started learning synthesis, like we started this conversation off by me saying, I use MaxMSP and you should learn modular synths and all of this. 922 01:11:32,316 --> 01:11:40,360 What I didn't tell you is that when I was getting started, I struggled so much to understand how it all worked. 923 01:11:40,601 --> 01:11:41,571 I did not come easy. 924 01:11:41,571 --> 01:11:43,382 It does not come easily to me. 925 01:11:43,698 --> 01:11:49,640 Contrary to popular belief, people look at me and they're like, Sarah, she's got one of those brains where technical things just click. 926 01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:51,200 And that's just not true at all. 927 01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:59,703 um It took me years of sitting with modular synths and studying them to finally feel comfortable and understand how they worked. 928 01:11:59,703 --> 01:12:03,584 And I've brought all of that into my teaching. 929 01:12:03,584 --> 01:12:11,736 I'm really grateful that it didn't come easily to me because I think it's made me a much better teacher because every time, you know, at every stop, I was the student who was 930 01:12:11,736 --> 01:12:12,416 like, 931 01:12:12,826 --> 01:12:14,366 But why is that happening? 932 01:12:14,366 --> 01:12:16,286 And like, I don't understand that. 933 01:12:16,286 --> 01:12:19,586 And wait, wait, wait, I've got 10 questions that need answering. 934 01:12:19,586 --> 01:12:24,346 Like, I was that person who was always just like, ask one question, get 10 more. 935 01:12:24,346 --> 01:12:26,786 So I teach for that kind of student, right? 936 01:12:26,786 --> 01:12:31,466 I was also the kind of person who didn't feel smart enough to do technical things. 937 01:12:31,466 --> 01:12:39,106 And I was convinced I was too stupid for synthesis, even though I really was so passionate about it. 938 01:12:39,106 --> 01:12:40,826 I was like, I love these sounds. 939 01:12:40,826 --> 01:12:42,366 I want to do this. 940 01:12:42,628 --> 01:12:44,319 but I'm not smart enough. 941 01:12:44,319 --> 01:12:55,759 um And so when I finally, over many years, I finally started to, it started to click and I started to gain the confidence and the fluency, I knew it was really important. 942 01:12:55,759 --> 01:13:06,638 If I'm teaching this topic, I need to make sure that from the very beginning, I'm addressing the fact that so many people feel these same feelings. 943 01:13:06,638 --> 01:13:12,366 So many people feel, you know, passionate about synthesis, but overwhelmed. 944 01:13:12,366 --> 01:13:16,129 They feel curious, but they maybe doubt if they're smart enough. 945 01:13:16,129 --> 01:13:21,333 They learn the basics and then things start to get a little hard and then they're like, my god, I'm too far behind. 946 01:13:22,035 --> 01:13:25,718 I've missed the, you know, whatever the story, again, these stories. 947 01:13:25,718 --> 01:13:28,330 um And none of that's true. 948 01:13:28,330 --> 01:13:33,895 Let me just be the first person to say, if you're listening to this and you're like, that's me, I feel too far behind, I don't feel smart enough, it's not true. 949 01:13:33,895 --> 01:13:38,989 I have helped, at this point, this is shocking to me, but I was looking at some of our... 950 01:13:39,788 --> 01:13:44,820 numbers in our free, the free class that I have, over 25,000 people have taken that. 951 01:13:44,820 --> 01:13:52,404 And I know for a fact that they've gone through and they've learned on the other side, they've come out making music with synths. 952 01:13:52,404 --> 01:14:01,387 So just know that like, you know, if you do feel like maybe I'm not smart enough or maybe I can't do this, it's not a matter of smarts. 953 01:14:01,387 --> 01:14:07,850 It's just a matter of having a process like to help you learn, having a structure to help you learn. 954 01:14:07,894 --> 01:14:15,859 and then really starting to um notice the stories that you tell yourself and choosing whether or not to believe them. 955 01:14:16,940 --> 01:14:19,542 And then, you know, showing up every day. 956 01:14:19,542 --> 01:14:25,246 You also mentioned a community, like having people to talk to, and that's a really big aspect of things too. 957 01:14:25,246 --> 01:14:30,289 um In this class, we have a really amazing community. 958 01:14:30,450 --> 01:14:36,974 There's a forum space on discourse that we have where people um ask questions, share their music, get feedback. 959 01:14:36,974 --> 01:14:41,537 And we also do live calls on Zoom, uh multiple different kinds. 960 01:14:41,537 --> 01:14:49,543 So there's coaching calls where I am basically doing kind of like creative mentorship and giving people feedback, helping them with their technical questions. 961 01:14:49,543 --> 01:14:53,946 We do study halls that are actually led by alumni in the class. 962 01:14:53,946 --> 01:14:59,430 So you can show up with whatever you're working on and just get help or just hang out and co-work. 963 01:14:59,430 --> 01:15:02,122 We do open mics, which are really fun. 964 01:15:02,122 --> 01:15:04,193 So many of the students have had their first. 965 01:15:04,193 --> 01:15:07,794 live performances ever in our Zoom open mics. 966 01:15:07,954 --> 01:15:14,326 And em they're just a really supportive place to try something and also to hear what other people are doing. 967 01:15:14,326 --> 01:15:25,050 And so a lot of the time, you know, I've heard from so many people, like, I feel like I'm the only person on this planet who cares about these weird experimental sounds. 968 01:15:25,050 --> 01:15:26,080 I feel like I'm all alone. 969 01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:27,630 I'm so isolated in my practice. 970 01:15:27,630 --> 01:15:32,580 And then they come into this, the learning sound and synthesis community and they're like, holy crap. 971 01:15:32,580 --> 01:15:44,733 There's hundreds of you, all of these people who get it and they care and they're celebrating what I'm doing and they're asking questions and it just becomes this beautiful 972 01:15:45,214 --> 01:15:46,734 snowball of momentum. 973 01:15:46,734 --> 01:15:48,265 You can tell I'm really passionate about this. 974 01:15:48,265 --> 01:15:55,797 It makes me very excited to talk about because the community element is just so powerful. 975 01:15:57,077 --> 01:16:00,098 Yeah, exactly. 976 01:16:00,663 --> 01:16:05,705 I get so excited about that through my community as well. 977 01:16:05,705 --> 01:16:11,107 Like hearing people make stuff and create and overcome that. 978 01:16:11,107 --> 01:16:14,558 And like I never shared anything with anyone before. 979 01:16:14,558 --> 01:16:16,208 And it's so exciting. 980 01:16:16,208 --> 01:16:23,630 And it's, I really take a lot of joy out of that myself and a lot of inspiration because 981 01:16:24,608 --> 01:16:28,639 Yeah, like sometimes you're working on stuff and it's impossible. 982 01:16:28,799 --> 01:16:30,600 Like, I can't do it anymore. 983 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:32,150 How does anyone finish anything? 984 01:16:32,150 --> 01:16:35,121 And then you hear somebody do it you're like, you did it. 985 01:16:35,121 --> 01:16:36,512 Like you were able to do it. 986 01:16:36,512 --> 01:16:37,882 It's not impossible. 987 01:16:37,882 --> 01:16:42,683 There's something about seeing that and hearing people's story. 988 01:16:42,683 --> 01:16:50,626 And yeah, like you said, like that it's not like you were born with modular synths and understood it. 989 01:16:51,542 --> 01:16:54,989 You've been on that long path and you know what that's like. 990 01:16:55,694 --> 01:17:03,758 And I also know how insanely fun and rewarding it is to get to the, you know, I say the other side, but I'm still learning, obviously. 991 01:17:03,758 --> 01:17:06,601 There's so much I'll always be learning. 992 01:17:06,761 --> 01:17:15,947 There's so much I'm always gonna get deeper into in terms of working with these instruments, but there's a bass level of fluency and confidence that comes. 993 01:17:15,947 --> 01:17:20,590 And when you get to that point and things start to click, you are gonna have so much fun. 994 01:17:20,886 --> 01:17:22,367 Because the sky's the limit. 995 01:17:22,367 --> 01:17:25,248 You can start to imagine sounds and create them. 996 01:17:25,248 --> 01:17:32,151 You can hear sounds in your favorite songs, like hear a bass line or hear a synth voice in your favorite song and know how to make it. 997 01:17:32,151 --> 01:17:35,202 It just becomes super, super rewarding. 998 01:17:35,202 --> 01:17:41,075 And so I love seeing people get to that point because then in some ways they're like, I think I've made it. 999 01:17:41,075 --> 01:17:44,136 And I'm like, this is just the beginning. 1000 01:17:44,356 --> 01:17:45,577 Get ready. 1001 01:17:46,097 --> 01:17:47,738 Because there's a lot ahead. 1002 01:17:48,150 --> 01:17:53,855 Yeah, I can remember that as a guitar player even learning some songs, like, oh, I get it. 1003 01:17:53,855 --> 01:17:59,160 And maybe thinking like certain guitar players weren't talented or something. 1004 01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:08,227 And then coming back to that music 10 years later and being like, oh, man, there's like a whole level I didn't even know was there. 1005 01:18:08,769 --> 01:18:09,653 Yeah. 1006 01:18:10,441 --> 01:18:18,896 Because it just seems like the horizon keeps getting further off and there's so much more terrain to explore. 1007 01:18:19,576 --> 01:18:22,700 Yeah, yeah, in an exciting way. 1008 01:18:23,945 --> 01:18:25,926 So people sign up. 1009 01:18:25,926 --> 01:18:29,349 um You want to tell them how to do that? 1010 01:18:29,349 --> 01:18:30,620 So if they're interested. 1011 01:18:30,620 --> 01:18:32,552 Because you've also got free stuff. 1012 01:18:32,552 --> 01:18:35,934 There's a lot of valuable stuff there. 1013 01:18:36,955 --> 01:18:41,989 I like that you give people a chance to see what it's about first, too. 1014 01:18:41,989 --> 01:18:44,800 And you're very generous with that as well. 1015 01:18:44,886 --> 01:18:45,497 absolutely. 1016 01:18:45,497 --> 01:19:02,516 Yeah, so there's, em well, so I think if people are listening to this shortly after it came out, then em I'm running a handful of free live workshops em that are basically 1017 01:19:02,516 --> 01:19:08,570 focused, I'm calling it How to Finally Make Music with Synths without getting overwhelmed or lost in gear. 1018 01:19:08,570 --> 01:19:10,381 That's kind of the idea. 1019 01:19:10,381 --> 01:19:12,922 So if you're a beginner, if you're like, 1020 01:19:12,996 --> 01:19:14,757 I don't know, I've been curious about this for years. 1021 01:19:14,757 --> 01:19:15,948 I don't know where to begin. 1022 01:19:15,948 --> 01:19:27,277 Every time I look in the how to learn synthesis, I Google that or I YouTube it, I just get totally overwhelmed with videos and gear and there's just too many options. 1023 01:19:27,277 --> 01:19:28,277 This is perfect for you. 1024 01:19:28,277 --> 01:19:33,371 It's basically like three or four steps of focus on this first. 1025 01:19:33,371 --> 01:19:38,785 I'm gonna break down the essential synthesis foundations that you need to be looking at first to kind of get a good foundation. 1026 01:19:38,785 --> 01:19:40,626 um 1027 01:19:40,886 --> 01:19:50,905 Then I am going to teach you one of my favorite kind of processes or recipes for building modular synth patches from scratch. 1028 01:19:50,905 --> 01:19:54,228 It's only three steps, so it's like digestible. 1029 01:19:54,228 --> 01:19:58,613 And by the end, you're going to be like, oh, I do this, I do this, I do this, and I can make sound. 1030 01:19:58,613 --> 01:20:01,746 And you can rinse and repeat and make endless sounds this way. 1031 01:20:01,746 --> 01:20:06,880 And then I'm going to share one of my personal favorite. 1032 01:20:07,404 --> 01:20:09,935 exercises for developing your sound design skills. 1033 01:20:09,935 --> 01:20:11,695 This is like life-changing for me. 1034 01:20:11,695 --> 01:20:15,096 It's a listening exercise and we're actually gonna do it live in the workshop. 1035 01:20:15,096 --> 01:20:18,617 So I'll guide you through a couple of different exercises. 1036 01:20:18,617 --> 01:20:23,268 And people always rave about this by the end of the class, they're like, my God, I didn't see the connection. 1037 01:20:23,268 --> 01:20:26,039 And this listening exercise opened up a lot for me. 1038 01:20:26,039 --> 01:20:34,011 um And then finally, I'll uh help people kind of demystify a little bit the process behind choosing your first synth. 1039 01:20:34,011 --> 01:20:34,912 Cause that's a big one. 1040 01:20:34,912 --> 01:20:36,632 Like where do I start? 1041 01:20:36,632 --> 01:20:38,363 What gear do I need? 1042 01:20:38,884 --> 01:20:40,585 What do I need first? 1043 01:20:40,966 --> 01:20:46,110 And I have a lot of really simple answers to help people get started on that path. 1044 01:20:46,110 --> 01:20:55,938 So if you're listening to this soon and you want to join that workshop, I'm running it a few different times to try to reach as many different people, different time zones as 1045 01:20:55,938 --> 01:20:56,479 possible. 1046 01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:01,693 um The link will be soundinsynthesis.com slash workshop. 1047 01:21:01,693 --> 01:21:04,165 But maybe we can just leave that in the show notes as well. 1048 01:21:04,165 --> 01:21:05,446 Does that sound OK? 1049 01:21:05,601 --> 01:21:06,430 absolutely. 1050 01:21:06,430 --> 01:21:07,451 please join us. 1051 01:21:07,451 --> 01:21:20,660 And if you missed that, um then Learning Sound and Synthesis, the official course, it's going to open up for enrollment um in late August. 1052 01:21:20,660 --> 01:21:23,241 And it'll be open for one week. 1053 01:21:23,381 --> 01:21:27,164 And then I will close enrollment back down and actually run the class. 1054 01:21:27,164 --> 01:21:31,176 um So definitely keep an eye out for that as well. 1055 01:21:32,209 --> 01:21:40,436 And if it happens to be passed then when you are listening there's still so much good stuff. 1056 01:21:40,436 --> 01:21:41,897 Your YouTube channel is awesome. 1057 01:21:41,897 --> 01:21:53,507 It's full of creative exercises and you demystify a lot of gear and you play and the Instagram is like that as well. 1058 01:21:53,507 --> 01:21:54,648 sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. 1059 01:21:54,648 --> 01:22:04,571 I also, I forgot that if you are listening to this in the future and learning sound synthesis is not open and I'm not running a live workshop, I actually also have um another 1060 01:22:04,571 --> 01:22:10,732 free introductory class that people can take that's called your first modular synth patch. 1061 01:22:10,973 --> 01:22:15,360 And um basically as the name suggests, it's a, 1062 01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:18,372 It'll teach you how to make your first modular synth patch. 1063 01:22:18,613 --> 01:22:21,796 And it uses a free virtual synth software, so you don't need any gear. 1064 01:22:21,796 --> 01:22:25,180 um So we can leave the link to that one as well. 1065 01:22:25,180 --> 01:22:30,165 And you can join that year round, any day, any time. 1066 01:22:30,165 --> 01:22:31,756 You can get yourself started. 1067 01:22:33,289 --> 01:22:34,982 and soon enough it opens up again. 1068 01:22:34,982 --> 01:22:37,125 So be patient. 1069 01:22:37,125 --> 01:22:38,597 six months it opens up. 1070 01:22:38,597 --> 01:22:51,520 um Roughly, if anyone has any questions that they want to talk to me about any details behind the class or what to expect or what it's like or anything like that, please don't 1071 01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:59,698 hesitate to DM me on Instagram or Facebook or anything like that and I'm happy to talk. 1072 01:23:00,991 --> 01:23:06,386 I'm excited to see your setup too for this performance that you're doing in Australia. 1073 01:23:06,607 --> 01:23:10,891 Playing with some pedals and FX like that. 1074 01:23:10,891 --> 01:23:18,119 Sounds fun and I'm sure you're going to do something inventive and unique to your style with it. 1075 01:23:18,119 --> 01:23:19,820 So that should be cool too. 1076 01:23:20,103 --> 01:23:28,969 Yeah, it's been a lot of fun to em use this performance as an opportunity to explore a brand new workflow for me. 1077 01:23:28,969 --> 01:23:31,261 em It's something that I really like to do. 1078 01:23:31,261 --> 01:23:33,593 It's like, got something coming up. 1079 01:23:33,593 --> 01:23:41,540 I could do the same old, same old that I've done before, or I could just mix it up a bit and use it as an excuse to learn. 1080 01:23:41,540 --> 01:23:42,500 Yeah. 1081 01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:47,846 Yeah, because we can sometimes fall into our ruts that way. 1082 01:23:47,846 --> 01:23:52,810 So finding ways to mix it up is always smart. 1083 01:23:54,072 --> 01:23:55,053 Cool. 1084 01:23:56,535 --> 01:23:59,638 Well, we will send people that way show notes and everything. 1085 01:23:59,638 --> 01:24:02,560 uh yeah, good luck with all that. 1086 01:24:03,755 --> 01:24:04,714 Thank you. 1087 01:24:05,961 --> 01:24:10,403 And thanks for coming on and thank you for anyone listening. 1088 01:24:10,403 --> 01:24:12,076 Appreciate having you here. 1089 01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:13,851 Have a good day. 1090 01:24:13,876 --> 01:24:14,816 Thanks. 1091 01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:17,540 Cool. 1092 01:24:17,540 --> 01:24:19,021 That was a long one.