Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode two seven to nine of the Hammer Territory Podcast.

I'm Scott Coleman and I am joined today by the Great Stephen Tolbert.

Brad is currently on the other side of the world.

Sean is currently running drunk through the backwoods of Tennessee after the Titans came back to win.

So it's Stephen and I this weekend.

And Stephen, I mean, there was there was a little bit to talk about.

You know, we're firmly in the off season now.

Alexanthopolis did meet with the media this weekend and we're gonna break that down.

But I guess before we get into the meat and potatoes, how are you doing?

What's up, buddy?

Yeah?

Man, it's been fun to watch playoff baseball.

I know the Braves aren't in it.

There's a big football weekend.

Of course down.

South football is king, but yeah, so Braves storyline.

Alex finally talked to the media.

It wasn't the most riveting hour long session you've ever heard, but there was a couple of things that we're gonna talk about.

We're gonna kind of tie a bow on snit, We're kind of gonna move on to the roster.

Some pretty interesting that the bullpen is a fastin anything that we're gonna spend some time talking about tonight.

But yeah, man, full off season mode.

You know, I'm watching I've got Playoff Baseball on my TV over to my right.

But other than that, yeah, we're just kind of set in the stage for when the off season begins, usually like the first week of November, and then we get going so plenty to talk about tonight.

There definitely is and we'll just jump right into it.

So on Saturday, Alexanthopolos met with the media on Zoom and I wanted to say two things quickly out front.

Number one, Alex did not say anything necessarily revolutionary or groundbreaking or stop the presses.

But it's probably the last time we are going to hear from Alex until they hire a manager in probably a few weeks.

We'll see how fast they progress.

And I also just want to make one note because this time a year ago, Alex met with the media and basically everything he said, or a lot of what he said, did not happen, and that is both frustrating.

But I also want to just remind people that a general manager is not under oath when he meets with the media like that.

There's nothing law binding about what Alexanthopolis says to the media.

You would hope that what he says was truthful and his forthcoming and indicative of what's going to come this offseason.

But things do change, and again gms are not required to say exactly what's on their mind.

Well, yeah, and especially when you know last year, you know, the big one was they said all the coaches were coming back, and then a week later they fired three coaches and he said what he said was, well, we we kind of went back and talked about a little bit, and we changed our mind.

And once you introduced the idea that like whatever my opinion is of something on one day can change like a week later, then you know, when you give these press conferences and you give opinions on stuff, there's no point in taking too much of it at face value because one, he's not going to tell you the truth, even if he knows that to be the truth.

And two there are times they just straight up changed their mind about stuff, and so it's.

Just budget changes or he gets different directives from ownership, Like there's a lot of things to play.

Here now, what he says still matter, like that we still cover it because he is the guy who runs the team, so his words have weight, they matter, We cover it, we talk about it.

But yes, and we tried to say it a bunch last year, like, don't ever take any public comments by Alex or really any GM and anything more than face value, because it changes.

They have zero incentive to be honest.

It's a competitive marketplace.

Information is power.

There's no incentive to be one hundred percent truthful.

And you won't find a GM on any level in any sport that is.

So I guess maybe the first real topic that we're going to dig into, and this will be a brief one, was Alex was asked multiple times in different ways about Brian Snitker, and once and for all, I think Steven and I are going to put a bow on this.

I know we have talked about it a lot on the podcast, and we talked about it on two podcasts this week, So if you missed any of those episodes, please go back and listen.

But Alex was asked and once again he emphasized that if Brian Snittcker wanted to return his manager for twenty twenty six Alex says he would be back.

And the other thing just of note was that Alex revealed that when they signed Snit to a three year extension back in twenty twenty two, it included five years on the back end in a front office advisory role, very similarly to the way they structured Bobby Cox's final deal with the Braves.

So that's I guess all we're gonna that's all we're gonna hear about it, right, Like that's it was interesting.

I still think there's like this whole conspiracy about did snid actually want to retire and all that we've heard so much about it, we've talked about it.

I think we can finally put a ball on this once and for all, Steven.

But I mean, did anything of that really catch your eye?

I'll say this when I when I was listening to Snit's press conference on Wednesday, maybe I'm the most gullible person in the world, and maybe he's a terrific actor, but I kind of bought what he was saying that, like it was his call that he needed to get away from the game for a couple of days to decide.

And then when Alex talked yesterday or Saturday again, I kind of bought it.

Maybe I'm gullible, but I did.

I kind of bought it.

Like he gave a lot of facts that he really had no need to give unless they're truthful, because it can only blow up in your face if you're lying about that.

If you're lying, you're gonna you're not gonna give a ton of information because you're not gonna wighe too deep in waters, you're unsure of you're telling the truth, you're gonna give all the information.

And he gave us all the details.

And at any point, Snick could release something or have a friend or a source release something that says, no, all of this is nonsense.

He's lying through his teeth.

I don't think Alex is gonna risk that unless he's just tell him the truth.

I believe it.

I believe that.

I still don't understand why they handle I don't know why they let him become a lame duck coach and have it be a topic of conversation for over a year instead of just keep signing in the deals and let him retire at any time in the middle.

But whatever they did it, the way they did it, They've done stuff I don't you know, the Craig Kimberl stuff.

They've done, stuff that is weird to me that I don't fully understand.

But for all of that, when Snit talked, when Alex talked, I bought it.

Like I believe Snit really could have managed this team if he wanted to.

He didn't want to anymore until now they're off to a new one and yeah, I'm I'm ready to move on.

Yeah.

And Alex did say when meeting with the media that he met with the current coaching staff just to kind of touch base with them.

He didn't really divulge anything specifically, but I think all of the coaches on the staff, from Tim Hyers to Rick Kranitz to Weiss to I mean, everybody on the coaching staff is very much up in the air moving forward.

We will see once they get a manager hired, whoever that is, I think we'll have a better inkling of who might be sticking around and who won't be.

And then lastly, on the manager front, Alex said that he was really going to get moving on the manager search over the weekend.

Now.

Alex said again that he does not have a list of candidates that he doesn't have anyone in mind that he laughed whenever he sees potential candidates listed on Twitter, or maybe Alex is listening to our podcast even but that's blowney.

This guy absolutely knows at least a few people who he wants to consider for the managerial job.

And then lastly, Alex did say that their hope is to keep this as quiet as possible internally.

They don't want it to leak.

That's all good and dandy, that's fine.

It is a bummer.

There's no NFL style rules with the interviewing process where NFL teams are required to disclose I believe both head coach and general manager interviews that role does not exist in baseball.

We will see if any names get leaked out in the next couple of days and weeks.

But you know, it sounds like Alex is really going to get work.

And now that officially snit has moved on from the managerial role, you know, Alex has basically four weeks until the offseason really gets going to really focus on this and get somebody hired.

Yeah, there's no one that believes that Alex doesn't have a list of names.

When you've got a seventy year old manager who's in the last year of his deal, like and saw this train coming down the tracks.

So he definitely has a list.

Now he might be telling the truth that he hasn't acted on that list.

They have.

They were quite busy in September.

I will say that they made a ton of roster move they made a ton of waiver claims.

They were shuffling the deck on the Titanic all the way to the end, so like there might have been stuff he had to get to.

I'm sure the Hassan Kim stuff he's trying.

I'm sure he's been trying to get you know, a contract worked out if he can before that guy decides we're gonna talk about short stop a little later in the show.

I'm sure there is other stuff, but it's not like it's an unimportant it's not it's the manager of the team, like it's a pretty important, you know step.

I'm I guarantee you he has taken steps before Saturday in terms of setting up interviews or talking to people, checking to see if David Ross is even interested in the job, checking the sea if John Gibbons or you know, whatever your list of names is, just to see if they have any interest before you even set up an interview.

But yeah, I think the process is gonna get going.

Like everything else Braves do.

We will not hear a word about it.

It stucks on our end.

We have to produe, you know, make content around this stuff.

Alex is not gonna leak anything.

Anything you hear from other sources you need to take with a grain of salt because this organization is probably the best in the sport keeping stuff close to the vest.

So we're not going to hear anything.

But as we get news, as we hear stuff, sometimes we hear stuff behind the scenes.

It's not public.

If we get the green light that we can say it, we'll say it.

But yeah, we'll see how this goes.

Yeah, we will see.

And I'm fascinated.

I mean it's yeah, me too.

In our lifetime, Steven, we really haven't been able to watch a managerial search play out, and I mean not even just manager but general manager too, have we ever?

Because Freddie was on Freddy Goodzalez was wasn't Freddy on Bobby's staff.

I believe, So there was not a whole like it was right, and I think like Freddy was kind of towards the end.

It's hard to remember exactly because it's been so long, but you know, everyone knew Bobby was retiring, and Freddy had been around forever and was really well liked.

And you know, it's almost like a manager in waiting type situation, like I don't, I don't.

I have to go back and look.

I don't remember if they did a full search, but I don't remember it.

And with snit he got hired.

He was the interim manager when Freddy got fired in the middle of the year and they just gave him the full time job.

I literally don't know in our lifetimes if we've ever had like a full on outside hire managerial search, you know, for the team.

Yeah, I mean, truly it was.

It was when Copy got banned, when John Coppolola got banned, and then they hired Alex and Thopless a few weeks later.

I mean, that's the last time we've had an honest to goodness high level of role in the organization job search.

Which I don't know.

I mean, I guess that's a good thing.

It's you could be the Mets who seemingly cycle managers every twenty four months and cycle general managers and all that but yeah, or Stephen, Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead, no, I was just.

Like that is fascinating that on the manager side, like this is one of the first I think it's the first in our lifetime when we've done a full answer.

I know they did front off of stuff, but yeah, they've just had incredible stability at that position and so I and that also speaks to like how important this position is.

Like I again, I think Alex is going to do a pretty exhaustive search here.

I concur with all of that.

All right, Stephen, next week are going to get into kind of the roster decisions the Braves have and some interesting comments about a few real key positions of need.

We're gonna get that to get to that just after the break, But first, a quick word from our sponsors.

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All right, Steven, so let's get into now kind of the roster decisions that are looming for this team, and I would say Alex identified a couple of positions on the roster that maybe weren't shocking.

But Alex identified shortstop, the starting rotation, and the bullpen as all areas of clear need.

So let's start at shortstop.

That one's probably the most straightforward because there's two paths.

I guess three.

The first path is that Hassan Kim opts into his player option for next season.

That's sixteen million dollars.

That is a decision that will likely be made within five days of the World Series ending.

By far and away, that is the cleanest path forward to getting the Braves a shortstop for next year.

I guess path two is, instead of Kim opting in for sixteen million dollars, the Braves work out a contract extension of some kind.

I'd be curious to know if not only the Braves are open to that, but if Kim and his agent, Scott Boris are open and receptive to it, we'll see.

Option three is that Hassan Kim opts out of his player option and becomes a free agent for all thirty teams to potentially bid on.

So with that said, we have talked about Shortstop a lot, but alex Enthopolis talk like someone who very much wanted Hassan Kim back with the brain.

We will see what happens with the the player option and the I guess the possibility of signing him before he even hits free agency.

But nonetheless, I mean shortstop for me is like the number one priority and they can't do another one sixty two of Nick Allen or the dal Bruhan or god knows whoever else they're gonna run out there.

Yeah, I mean short Yeah, it's the most fascinating.

It's a player option, which the Braves never have to deal with.

You know, they have very little control over this situation.

Obviously they can offer an extension, but again it's Scott Boris as the agent.

We have zero clue if he has any interest in it.

Usually not.

Usually he wants his guy to get to the open market.

You know, other teams compete, competing offers make you know, better offers, So we'll see.

I'll say this about Kim, he had a really kind of roller coaster last month of the year.

Like at one point he was red hot, and then he got cold, and he got red hot again and he got cold right at the end.

His numbers ended up kind of league averages.

In terms of offense, he's a good defensive player.

I have zero I don't know if you, I have zero feel for if he's gonna opt into this option or not.

I really it feels like fifty one forty nine and I don't even know which way I lean on it.

But if he doesn't opt, So, if he opts out and he gets to free agency, that doesn't mean the Braves can't bring him back.

It just means they won't bring it back on that contract.

They would have to be the I don't know if they would have to be the highest bid, but they would have to have the best bid in terms of years plus dollars.

But they do like him a lot.

He likes Atlanta.

He's really good friends with Jerks and Profar.

I know they talked about it the trade deadline, bringing guys in for a couple months, just to get them used to the environment, to see if that helps maybe get a contract signed.

So we'll see the you know, in terms of content purposes, the most fascinating thing is if he opts out and the Braves have to do a full like league wide search for a shortstop.

That is not the path I hope how I hope he just either opts in or signs a new contract and we can forget about shortstop and move on to other stuff.

It's his call, and that's why player options are so tricky.

It's his call, and we'll see what he does.

Sixteen million dollars a lot to leave on the table when you had kind of an average year, So I don't think it's a slam duck either way.

I think you can very clearly make a case for and against him deciding whether to opt in or not.

Like you just said, sixteen million American dollars is a lot of money to put in your pocket.

And if he has a really good year next year, guess what, Hassan Kim, You're a free agent and you're probably going to make another fifty sixty million dollars guaranteed, which for shortstops on the wrong side of thirty that is not super common.

At the same time, if there's not much of a shortstop market this offseason, then then maybe they want to go for one big contract now and we will see how it all plays out.

But clearly, Hassan Kim opting into his option makes everything else much much easier because and we won't spend an hour doing a full on shortstop breakdown tonight necessarily.

But now let's say that Kim opts out and the Braves can't get an extension done.

Now it's pretty thin out there.

Trevor story is thirty three years old.

Story had a pretty good year with the Red Sox.

He was finally healthy, but has a long injury history and could opt out.

I don't know where you stand on Trevor's story.

The other player who's coming off another really good year is Bobaschett.

The problem with Boba Schett, while he really does hit well, is he might be the worst defensive infielder in Major League Baseball, and nobody thinks he's a short stop long term, probably more of a second baseman.

Of course, the Braves presumably have Ozzie Alby's.

Now, maybe you can work out something where Bishett is your shortstop for a year or two and then you move him to second base.

But then you're paying the shortstop premium for a guy to stand at second base, and then you're back to square one, where you don't have a shortstop and you have a very expensive middle infield partner at second base.

I don't know.

I mean, to me, Hassan Kim feels like the easiest option.

It feels like the most Braves.

He feels the most probable of that group of three to be with the Braves next year.

But I mean, where are you at with shortstop?

Yeah, there's none out I mean there's none out there, like Trevor's story.

So Trevor story had a weird year.

He had like a negative ten out's above average at shortstop this year, Like at one point is a really good defensive shortstop.

But defense does not age well at any position, and once you get above thirty, like, it's no guarantee.

Bobashd is not a good defender at all.

I mean he's not a shortstop to be honest.

And so in the Braves value defense a ton at that position.

Like if it's not Hassan Kim, I legitimately don't know what they're gonna do.

It's just a dead market.

Unfortunately for the Braves.

The fact that it's kind of a dead market is good news for Hassan Kim if he wants to go out on the market and get a bigger deal because there's not a ton out there.

Like shortstops just don't become available.

We've talked about that for the last three years, Like teams don't trade them, they don't let him get to free agency, they don't become available.

And you know, maybe you can bank on Trevor's story having a better year if he opts out.

The Red Sox do have Marcelo Meyer to kind of slide into shortstop if they want.

Maybe story opts out and you bank on having a bounce back year.

But yeah, if it's not hawesome, I mean, I'm it becomes a fascinating storyline at that point if he if the Braiders don't bring him back, because I legitimately don't know who it would be.

Yeah, me neither.

So we'll see.

I think Kim opting in makes life so much easier for everyone involved.

And then Alex in the front office can just focus on the pitching staff and they can probably focus on the DH and the outfield, which we'll talk about a little bit later.

And I'll add this, this is one of the times where it might make sense to overpay a little bit because the drop off is so it's like in a draft, like in a fantasy draft where you pay you pick a guy around early because what's behind him is there's no depth behind it.

You got to you gotta make sure you get the guy, yeah, because there's no depth behind This might be one of those situations where like even you gotta pay a little more than you want to.

If you're Alex, I think you've got to find a way to get Kim back on the roster.

I think with truth theorem, Alex and Thopplas probably really likes Hassan Kim, solid defender, good on base, has always been a good on base guy.

The God knows the Braves could use some more on bas especially at the bottom of the order, because then you're getting guys on base ahead of Akunya and Olsen and Profar and Riley.

Like we saw, it was not a coincidence that when the Braves finally started getting runners on base at the bottom of the order the offense was better.

It's not some grand mystery as to why they started scoring.

They have a couple of really good hitters at the top, and if you have runners on base for them, and if Hassan Kim is an option, I agree wholeheartedly that you got to pay a few extra million dollars.

Fine, Like, okay, maybe you have to cut back on your bullpen spending a little bit, or maybe you don't pick up Tyler Kinley's option, or you don't pick up Pierce Johnson's option, or you rework a contract somewhere like that's fine, because shortstop, they can't do this.

Man.

We've watched three years of Orlando Arcia and Nick Allen and it's just you can't do it.

I mean, it's really hard to live that way.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and again, if you don't resign Pierce Johnson, there's a guy you can go find out there that might not be quite as good as Pierce Johnson, but is pretty close.

If you don't sign hass On Kim, there's not a guy out there you can go get that's even remotely.

It's just a different level.

So like Priority A, B and C has to be in my opinion, hass On Kim this winter.

Yeah.

Absolutely, all right, Stephen, we are now going to talk about the starting rotation and the bullpen, and you had some interesting thoughts on the bullpen that I wanted to get your take on.

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All right, Steven, Let's now talk about the starting rotation and in his meeting with the media Alexanthoppola said they want to add a starter, that the starting rotation is a priority.

That was music to my ears and God, let's hope they follow through on that so quickly.

Let's just kind of go through the current internal options the Braves have in the rotation, and I kind of think they fall into a handful of different buckets.

The first one, we'll call them the really good, if healthy bucket.

That's Chris Sale, that's Spencer Schwallenbach, and that's Spencer Strider.

We have no idea of knowing these guys are going to be healthy.

Let's hope they all are going into the off season healthy.

When they are healthy, they're all anywhere from good to elite.

But we know this group is not the cleanest bill of health.

That's the big three, and then I want to go to one more, and then I want to get your take on something.

I think there's then a second bucket is Hirst Waldrop Hurst and Waldrop is very interesting.

He was terrific down the stretch, as we saw, but he only did it for two months.

And God knows, we have had our hearts broken by young pitching before because of injuries or they just don't work out for whatever reason.

But the reason I bring up those two buckets of pitchers is that's four guys Sale, Schwalenbach, Streider, and Waldrop.

If healthy.

I think all four are more than capable as major league starters at different levels, of course, but are all more than capable of being in the rotation come opening day.

But there are a lot of questions with that group, and that's your Big four, And that's why I think it was so encouraging to hear Alex say that they want to at a storting pitcher and that it's a priority for them this offseason.

Yeah, it's such a fascinating position group because you have talent, like you mentioned the Big four, and then you have Ronaldo Lopez, who the last time he was healthy whole season was awesome.

If Grant Holmes, who.

Has this lingering potential, Tommy John We're gonna try rehab and see what happens, you know, hanging over him, so like how much can you depend on him for next year?

You know, you have aj Smith Schalver, who's gonna be coming back from serious elbow injury sometime probably in the middle of the year, depending on how his rehab goes and then you have all the organizational depth.

You know, we're not gonna go through all those names, So you.

Have bodies like.

You could you could make the argument that they have enough pitching.

I would never make that argument, because you can never have enough pitching.

Yeah, and the Braves have a like every rotation has injury risk.

The Braves almost have another level of injury risk, more than just your standard injury risk, just because they've I mean, they have not been able to keep a rotation healthy for years.

And you just look at the individual like Chris Sale, Spencer Strider, two guys who you have to say are high injury risk at this point in their career.

Now, I don't think it's fair to slap that on Schwellenbach.

He had kind of a freak broken elbow thing I've never really seen before, but he attributed to like his extra velocity.

Like so when he starts pitching again, he starts ramping up his velocity again, Like, what's gonna happen?

That's a fair question.

Ronaldo Lopez has had this shoulder.

You know, he basically missed the entire He didn't miss the entire season, like we just talked about with Grant Holmes.

He's got the Tommy John Lingering nor him.

So they have bodies, but it's such a scary group to just go into the year with that group that you almost have to just by default at another starter.

Even if you don't, even if you're just counting bodies you have enough, you don't have enough.

So I'm with you.

I was very glad to hear him say starting pitching is a I already.

They need, they need a guy who they know who has got like a three or four year track record of one hundred and eighty innings, one hundred and seventy innings, one hundred and eighty, one hundred and sixty like, well, they know they're gonna get six months worth of workout of because.

There's not a guy.

There's not a single pitcher on their in their rotation who you know for a fact you can say that about.

And that's terrifying.

And listen, if if they don't pitch, they're not gonna win, Like they're not.

You can't do what you did this year and use twenty whatever pitchers they used.

I don't care how good the offense is.

They're not gonna win if if you know the eighty percent of the rotation gets hurt again, so they gotta figure that's they have to figure that part out.

Yeah, I think reliability and durability are really the key.

And obviously you're not just gonna go sign a rubber arm, Like you're not gonna go sign like Kyle Gibson who is famous for making thirty starts every year for a decade, but he sucked.

Like what what good as a five era if they're gonna go out I mean they have that his name is Bryce Elder, Yes, and we don't want Bryce Elder to go out there.

And if Joey Wentz is still around, sure, like Joey Wentz can make a couple of starts for you against the Marlins and the Pirates, but you don't want Joey Wentz to be third on the team and starts as he was this past season.

We can't do that again.

And for multiple years now, they've had crazy injuries.

Chris Sale pound for pound, might be the best pitcher in baseball.

At worst, he's top three, top five, But that guy has the weirdest collection of injuries I have ever seen, Like, quite literally, the weirdest collection of injuries I have ever seen for a baseball player.

You would think he's like a ten year NFL veteran with all the broken bones and weird stuff he's had.

We'll see what kind of year Spencer Strider has.

But again, there's no guarantees with him.

You make a great point about Schwellenbach.

He starts throwing harder and his elbow broke.

What does that mean?

I mean, is he going to rant back?

Does it mean it's something he's going to have to manage and the rest of his career?

Like it was such a bizarre injury.

Thankfully it was not a tissue or attendant or anything a ligament.

And then you're right, like, how can you bank on anything from Ronaldo Lopez who missed an entire year with shoulders that are terrifying?

How can you bank on anything from Grand Holmes, who is trying to do something not many pitchers are doing, And that's when you blow out your elbow or come awfully close to blowing out your elbow, not getting surgery and just rehab and recovery that usually doesn't work.

Sometimes it does, but more times than not.

Would anyone be surprised if two weeks into spring training we get a blue box that says Grant Holmes has undergone Tommy John surgery.

Nope, I wouldn't be a j Smith Shauber, who knows what he'll be able to give the team.

It feels like that's gonna be just kind of a cherry on top and whatever you take, you get.

But yeah, man, like at a starter of some kind, please, it might be.

And it's a pretty healthy free agent class, Stephen, like everyone from like Dylan C's and Ranger Suarez.

Maybe they could make a trade for a Sunny Gray and Nathany Evaldi.

Like there's there's going to be pittures available.

You might have to overpay, but dear God, let's get somebody to help out this rotation because we can't do another summer of watching Bryce Elder every five days.

Yeah, I really wish they had gotten the I know they were interested in Nathany Evaldi last winter.

I really wish they had just gotten that done.

I have no idea what they offered.

I don't know if the Rangers just blew everybody else up the water, but that would have been a good one because the dude is just so durable.

But yeah, they gotta do something and Listen, If you actually get to the point where you have all these guys healthy and pitching at the same time, fantastic.

Go to a six man rotation, limit everybody's innings, because then the next goal is not just to get them through the season, but get him to October where you can pitch him in October.

You can always move somebody.

You can move grand Home to the bullpen.

We're gonna talk about the bullpen a second.

You can remove Rinaldo Lopez to the bullpen, who might be a damn good he was a really good reliever for a long time.

You might put him back there because they might need more bullpen help.

Like, there's things you can do.

What you can't do is not do anything and then try to patch it together in the middle of the season with the Joey Winces and the cal Quantrells and the Carlos Carrascos of the world.

That's what you can't do.

You have to address it now and then if some by some miracles, somewhere in the middle of the season you actually have too many.

Starters, you could figure it out.

There's bullpens, there's six men rotations, there's given guys a little fifteen day breaks here and there on the il.

There's plenty of things you can do.

Like the Dodgers signed twelve starting pitchers last offseason, Like it was at one point they literally had like a thirteen man rotation.

They made it work, like, just add arms.

You just have to add arms.

At this point in the history of watching the Braves or just any team in baseball, have you, Steven Tolbert, every one said, man, we have too many good starting pitchers right now.

They're all healthy, and they're all throwing the ball really good, and I just don't know what the Braves are going to do.

Not only is never happened with the Braves, has never happened with any team ever in the history of the sport.

It just doesn't happen.

Add On, I don't care how many you have.

Add more.

Yes, be greedy.

This is still a World Series window, but you have to figure out the pitching.

YEP, can't do it.

And I'll say no, I'll say this, they do have more Triple A talent.

They have like legitimate, like prospects at Triple A.

Now, for the first time in a while, it's not just your Bryce Elder, Darius Vines, Alan Winen's kind of player, Like it's like real prospects of real upside Fuintes Jr.

Richie, there's a whole bunch of them that are like actually close now, So that will help having actual talent down there, but you got to go add some major league caliber starting pitching.

And not only do they have maybe talent in waiting in Gwinet, but the farm system is also a little healthier than it was, so you know, for years it's like, yeah, let's go make a trade.

But if you have a bottom three farm system, even if the Braves I think have outperformed what the expert consensus rankings have said in terms of prospects in the organization because every year they somehow turn out like a Rookie of the Year candidate even in a bottom three system.

It feels like they have some more depth.

They've been able to sign international free agents for a few years now.

We're seeing that they've done a decent job drafting in recent years.

I still think that's an area for growth for this organization.

But there's some talent here like they're not and they don't necessarily need every talented player in the minors to help out the major league team immediately.

They should be able to add, whether they have to go to free agency and sign one of these good established veterans or make a trade.

They feel like they have some ammo to go out and be able to have conversations for most players, and that's frankly something they have not been able to say the last few years.

Yeah, there's no reason.

There's no reason not to address this.

I mean, in a lot of ways, it wrecked this season.

It didn't fully wreck this season because the offense was so bad in the first half.

The offense being bad in the first half really wrecked the season.

It got wrecked again in the second half because everybody in the pitching staff got hurt.

But you can't let that hat.

You cannot go to the You can't go into twenty twenty six with this many injury risk in your rotation and not address it at all.

You got prospects to trade, you got money to spend.

You have to go this You have to address this problem, all.

Right, Steven, Let's now talk about the bullpen.

And this is kind of a fascinating bullpen for me.

We were talking just before the show about kind of the state of the bullpen, but I guess it's a quick refresher and they'll throw it to you.

Rice Eglesias is set to become a free agent, assuming he does not work out a contract extension with the Braves in the next month, but Ricella is a free agent.

They have legitimate money guaranteed money owed to Joejamenez and Aaron Bummer next year.

They have Dylan Lee owed cheap money through arbitration that's a virtual guarantee.

And then they have player options seven million dollars for Pierce Johnson and five and a half million dollars for Tyler Kinley.

Where are you at with this bullpen?

Because it's not a bad group by any means, but watching the playoffs right now, I was quickly reminded just how electric a bullpen needs to be in ways that a good bullpen can just completely take over a game.

And I mean, heck, we saw it firsthand in twenty twenty one with the Night Shift.

But where are you with the obvious knowledge that this team currently does not have a closer under contract or a designated closure under contract, and also that we are a month away from the offseason beginning.

Yeah, so I was you know what a lot of people were doing.

I was watching playoff baseballs, watching these bullpens come in, you know, I was actually watching the Blue Jays Varland for the blue Jays throw like one hundred and one miles an hour, and it actually made me like.

I don't remember him a lot of the Braves.

I don't remember the Braves doing a lot of like one hundred mile an hour pitches this year.

So I looked it up.

The Braves were through the second fewest.

One hundred mile an hour pitches in twenty twenty five.

I think the Astros.

Were the only team that threw fewer.

And I just I think the Braves need more.

I think the Braves need to be more dynamic out of the bullpen.

And you know, owing Aaron Bummer ten million dollars next year is I'm sorry to do this, but it's it is a bummer.

I don't like you've I've heard you talk about Pierce Johnson and like how you can make the argument it might not be worth it if there's other players you can go get.

I don't know, I just want to be more dynamic.

And that's why, like Rinaldo, going back to the bullpen is so interesting to me.

One because it allows you to get a starter in his spot that's more reliable, more durable.

But two, when he was in the bullpen, that dude was thrown like one hundred and one miles an hour, like he was a real weapon.

And I understand starter versus reliever.

You always prefer starter.

But if you already have questions about his shoulder, you need more dynamic weapons in the bullpen.

You're already wanting to get a starting pitcher in the offseason, Like I can make a really compelling case.

Why and he you know, he, I know, originally he said he didn't want to be in the bullpen, but by the end of the year he'd kind of softened on that, Like I can make a really compelling case, like Ronaldo Lopez's most valuable position next year is in the bullpen.

The Braves do not have a closer under contract, as we've talked about a lot Roussio.

Iglesias will be a free agent once the offseason officially starts after the World Series.

They could certainly bring him back.

He was awesome in the last four months.

But owing Aaron.

Bummer ten million, not having any clue what you're going to get out of Joe Jimenez and owing him nine million dollars next year.

Feels like those feel like two very restrictive things, and I would love to get out of one of them if possible.

Aaron Barmer is probably gonna be the easiest one because Jimenez missed the entire year, But getting out of one of those, I don't know if the Kenley player option or the the Pierce Johnson player option or on the table, maybe getting out of one of those.

I would just I would like to see a few more like like super dynamic relievers added to this bullpen, which at times felt a little bland to me.

A lot of guys who throw ninety three, ninety four, ninety five, ninety six.

You know, when you watch playoff baseball, you just you see all these like lights out relievers comes out.

It just doesn't feel like the Braves have a lot of that.

I would like to I would just like to see the bullpen get a little bit more dynamic.

In twenty twenty six.

You use the word bland, and I think that is a perfect way to describe this bullpen right now.

And can you say with a straight face that Pierce Johnson is a good quality middle reliever.

Yeah, yes, but he's he's not humming a hundred out there, and he's you know, he has the big curve ball, but he has flaws, like he's not very good against lefties, Like lefties just sit on that curve and they hit it.

They do right, He's.

Never hit Pierce Johnson, but lefties mash him and like theyll only is a good lefty reliever.

I have no qualms, but like Aaron Bummer, it really sucks.

They guaranteed him another year that I think that was probably more of Alex getting his budget squeezed a year ago, maybe unexpectedly, where he had to redo those contracts for Bummer and Renaldo Lopez to give him a little more money to work with.

Like it's yeah, it is a bummer.

They owed ten and a half million dollars to Aaron Bummer, who also had injury concerns down the stretch.

And it was interesting that the word that Alex Enthoplis used in his media availability was that bullpen is always an area of focus for the team, and they're in this weird scenario where they don't need to go out and sign like five guys, like this is not a bullpen that needs to be completely overhauled because they think it's pretty good on paper and if you added a legitimate closure of some kind, then it looks even better.

But at the same time, I'm also just not like in love with this group.

And you know, it's it's hard to say, because guys get hot, guys get cold, but it just doesn't feel like a championship caliber bullpen right now.

And listen, you feel it most when your starters are hurt and your bullpen is having to cover four innings a night, five innings a night, like they did the entire second half.

And I do think so the first two months of the year, the Bray's bullpen, we talked about it a bunch.

They threw the fewest innings in baseball.

The starters were going like seven innings every night.

The starters were I mean a whole stretch of like the first couple months of the year.

The starters were awesome.

That's what made it so frustrating because Bride couldn't score.

Yeah, he couldn't win any games, but the starters were awesome.

And like sale Schwallenbach, it was when Strider came back, he got hot.

Elder had a really hot stretch.

Grant Holmes had a really hot like, the starters were really good for a long time, so the bullpen never really got used.

In the second half, when the starters got hurt, the bullpen got used a lot more.

I think it got exposed.

And I just again, I just I.

Want more what I would call weapons out of the bullpen, where you bring a guy in you're like, all right, this dude, this dude can shut down an inning.

The other team is dreading this dude coming out, Like, I just don't feel like even like Dylan Lee had a really rough second half, kind of quietly.

The Braves were out of it by then, so nobody really paid attention.

But Dyl Lee gave up a ton of homers in the second half.

Yeah, I don't know.

I just I want more weapons.

I want a little bit more velocity.

I want I wanted to look a little bit more like the bullpens that we watch, you know, on these October nights, in these playoff games where they got three or four guys coming out, guys you've never heard of, Like who is this guy throwing one hundred and one miles an hour with a wipeout side.

Now I've literally never heard of this guy before.

I want a little bit more of that for the Braves next year.

I would say it's kind of a weird weakness, but it is like an organizational weakness for like bullpen development over the year.

And let's be clear, the Braves have done an insane job with player development over the last decade, Like so many good players have come out homegrown, but bullpen like was it seven years ago?

Aj Minter was homegrown and awesome.

Dylan Lee is homegrown and had kind of an unconventional path, but he's been a good lefty reliever.

Yeah, that's kind of it.

Man, Like I know Dasball Hernandez has fans.

I have no confidence in Day's bell, Like, there's just not I mean, he's twenty eight years old, he's a he's not a prospect that you know.

It's kind of a weird flaw in the organization.

And it's not like they can't develop starting pitching because that would be like a crisis, like a full stop crisis.

But it'd be nice if they could not, only because then they're cheap too, you know, you don't I hate carrying a fifty sixty million dollar bullpen, which is probably what the Braves are gonna carry by the time they sign a good closer and probably at least one more we'll call potential high leverage arm to this group.

Yeah, I don't know what it is like.

Even when you play like the Nationals and the Marlins, it seems like they've got like three or four, like twenty three year olds that throw one hundred and one out of the bullpen and like guys you've i mean literally never heard of.

You couldn't pick them out of a lineup, And it seems like all these other teams are developing.

And I know the Braves like push guys to be starters for as long as possible, and that has produced fruit for the organization.

It's not like that's a bad philosophy.

A starting picture is more valuable than a reliever.

But yes, it does seem to be like the Braves always have to go and get externally add their believers versus you know, having guys come up with six years of control and the first three years they're making league minimum and you know, you don't have to like the Braves have to spend a lot of money in their bullpit, like this is where you pay for it.

Is quite literally, you pay for it.

You have to.

It's been a large chunk of your payroll to build a bullpen because you have you don't have any internally.

And again, the Braves do have much better pitching in terms of prospects at Double A and Triple A this year.

Maybe some of those guys can come up and help.

I know, Laura came up for like a week.

They barely used him, so who knows how good he is.

You know, he has trouble funding.

He has a high velocity guy, which is good to see.

But we'll see what they do.

Maybe a j Smith shover, like if he's ready to come back in July or August and they feel like they could use a fresh arm in the bullpen, and maybe they don't want to tax him because he's still young.

I mean, we'll see.

I mean, there's there's always ways to improve a bullpen.

That's the good thing is like by far and away, it's probably that is an easy area to address.

It's not shortstop where the Braves have been drawn dead for three years, but it is kind of a weird Braves are a weird spot with the bullpen right.

Now, and that's why Ronaldo moving Ronaldo to the bullpen.

I'm sure they talk about it a lot, and Ronaldo got asked about so it's obviously a topic.

But moving Ronald Lopez to the bullpen makes a lot of sense, and I hope that's something they explore.

We will see probably something I mean, I'm guessing not till spring training.

And obviously we'll see who they add.

I mean, if they if they had a starting pitcher, if they go out and sign Dylan C's, well, someone's getting bumped to the bullpen just from a numbers game.

But we'll see.

Lastly, Alex was asked a little bit about the outfield and DH situation wasn't really necessarily a focus for Alex, and he kind of downplayed the need to add a hitter.

All I will say is that while the DH catcher tandem kind of makes sense on paper with Sean Murphy and Drake Baldwin, I feel like you're just kind of giving up a positional advantage because Drake Baldwin the catcher is a massive weapon.

Drake Baldwin the DH is fine, but he's not you know, he's not gonna have a in ops or a nine hundred ops necessarily as a DH, and then who knows what Sean Murphy's gonna give us.

We are fans of Murph on this podcast.

I think by the fan base his defense and ability behind the plate is greatly undervalued.

But you cannot predict what this guy is gonna do offensively.

Either he's in the middle of hitting nine home runs in a two week stretch, or he is oh for his last forty.

And maybe the Braves are fine rotating those two.

But I think I think I can speak for you and say we are in favor of them adding another outfielder who can rotate in his DH.

It just fixes a lot of problems and also gives you insurance for the outfield.

Oh yeah, I want an I want a starting caliber outfielder like I want to like Cody Bellinger.

Level, don't.

I don't mean like Jake Frayley or you know, pick your favorite fourth out I mean a starting like a guy who you would pay and you'd be like, all right, he's starting somewhere, and have that guy a Kunyan prof rotate DH.

That's what I have zero interest in the catchers.

It's just not the same.

Like Treg Baldlin hits good, he's a really good hitter for a catcher, for a DH.

It's it's still good, but it's not.

It's not taking full advantage of the situation.

Also, the Braves cannot, for the life of them, keep a outfield healthy.

Like they haven't kept an outfield healthy.

I mean going back like six years back to the World Series when they had to remake their entire outfield at the trade deadline.

I don't remember the last time the Braves kept their outfield healthy.

Akunya gets hurt a lot, it's just a fact.

He does profar.

He doesn't get hurt a lot.

He missed a lot of time, but he's also not a great defender, Like getting him out of the outfield makes a lot of sense.

Michael Harris has dealt with a lot of injuries.

Like, it's not just maximizing DH, it's also just built in depth for a position that you've had zero luck keeping healthy for years.

So it just makes too much sense.

Also, I don't like having a full time DH.

I think it's too restrictive on the roster, having a guy who literally cannot play the field anywhere.

I don't understand why you would give up one of your roster spots.

For that, he has to hit at such a massive level for that to make any sense at all.

And the odds that you're gonna go get somebody at thirty five thirty six, which is the age most of these guys are, and get a like career year.

It's great when Kyle Schwarber does it, but like, how often can you depend on that?

And the amount of money you got to give him to bank on it, it's not a great bet.

Just go get another out, Go get a starting caliber outfielder.

Let's try to keep your other guys healthy by rotating them out.

It just makes it makes too much sense.

Yeah, agree completely from your mouth to Alex's ears.

Hopefully someone clip that and send it to Alex's.

Spots and clip it, send it there you go.

So again, Alex kind of downplayed it a little bit, but doesn't mean anything.

It's not when Alex.

I'll say this, When Alex downplays something, it happens, and when he talks something up.

But you know, it might we might be the reverse here, might be the reverse chinks.

And kind of going back to what we were talking about with the starting rotation and having too much pitching.

Guess what if the Braves add an outfielder and profar is hitting, and Michael Harris is hitting, and Ronald Cunyr Junior is hitting, and all three are healthy, then you just rotate them.

And that means that each night, either Sean Murphy or Drake Baldwin are on the bench, assuming they don't get traded, okay, whatever.

And if if Murphy has an eight hundred OPS and playing goal glove defense and Baldwin has an eight to fifty ops and is playing totally fine defense, a non problem, and you can bet confidently that one of those players is either going to get banged up or underperformed next year.

And again, it's just this is a very good roster, or it's a good roster.

It can be very good with a couple of editions.

And now that they've reset the luxury tax, now that Alex talked about that, he said they don't really care about the tax as long as it doesn't impact draft picks, which I get this team should not be giving up draft picks willingly, but go out be aggressive.

God, we can't do another offseason where they basically signed one player and added a bunch of filler because guess what, three weeks into the season.

We were already feeling the effects of that.

Yeah, they were.

I mean they they were picking up bullpen throwaways at the end of spring training and using them.

And I mean Hector Narus got used in a in a one run game in the seventh inning of opening.

Day last year.

Yeah, and it cost the Braves.

I know, what if they had started the year one to zero, Like, I think about that a lot actually, like and they didn't do any They didn't add anything to the bullpen last year.

We all off season were like, what the hell, what is happening.

They've lost so much off their team to the year before, They've had no they've added no pitching.

Yeah, do not do what you did last year, which is sit on your hands for six months, make one signing and then just try to you know, use the waiver wire to add everything else.

Go add some real talent this.

I mean, now that you've had the season you've had, I think alex Is gonna have a little bit more pressure.

They they will.

They've reset the luxury touchs.

Like you said, we'll see where payroll goes.

But this is a good roster.

It could be a really good roster.

Go add the players you need to add.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it's a pretty healthy free agent class.

There's usually good players available in the trade market as well.

So let's pour some fuel on this thing and get back to where we want the Braves to be, because nobody wants to sit through another seventy six win season or whatever the hell they just did.

I mean, that was just not fun to watch at all, all right, Steven, I mean those were kind of the big points from Alex.

He talked about the manager and the coaching staff.

He hit on his offseason priorities.

Of course, we're still about four weeks away from the offseason really getting going, but as we've said, a lot of things to get through.

I think manager is the first domino, and then the coaching staff, and then you have roster decisions to make with player options and free agency and all that good stuff.

I guess any final thoughts from you as we wrap up this episode.

No, I would like to see them get manager solved before the off season begins, Like, I don't want them being like in the middle of November still without a manager.

Like I would like to see that.

Oh yeah, I.

Would like to see that solved in the next couple of weeks.

Whatever's gonna happen with the coaching staff if guys leave again, we have zero idea what their contract status is, each of them individually, but like, what's Rick Kranit's going to do, what's Tim Hyer's gonna do, What's what White's gonna do?

If he doesn't get the job, you might have to hire all those guys.

So I would like to get the coaching part of the off season done here in October so that once we get to November we can get to this other stuff.

So and I think that makes sense.

I kind of expect that.

So, you know, in terms of like what to look out for, I think the Braves are going to move decently quickly, as quickly as they can on this coaching move, this manager move.

Hopefully it's something we get in the next few weeks and we can get it kind of behind us by the time the off season starts.

Yeah, definitely, it's some big boxes to check.

And hey, Alex hasn't been thinking about it, but now he's he has time, Now he's now he's thinking about it.

I love it all right, Steven, that's going to do it for us.

On this weekend edition of the Hammer Territory Podcast.

As always, a big thank you to everybody for tuning in.

If you are a new listener, welcome aboard.

Please be sure to hit that follow and subscribe button, because then whenever the Braves do hire their manager, whenever they get resolution on Hassan Kim, whenever they go out and sign nine free agents this offseason to a billion dollars, you will get all of our takes hot and fresh in your feed of choice.

He is Stephen Tolbert.

You can follow Steven on Twitter splash x at b Underscore Outliers.

I'm Scott Coleman can follow me if you so choose for all the Daniel Jones hot takes at Scott Coleman fifty five.

We'll be back with more episodes later this week, and until then, we will see everybody next time.

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