Hey there.

If you like true crime stories and you love being in the great outdoors, you have come to the right place.

Welcome to Crime off the Grid.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Crime Off the Grid.

I'm Tara and I'm Nancy.

Hey, we've got a really good story today and we're just gonna get right into it.

Where are we going, Nancy, We are going to Big Ben National Park.

So we had a listener send us a message and she said, please do a story about Big Ben, And so that's what we're doing.

Thank you so much for suggesting that to us.

And we do have some stories that come out of there, and hopefully this one works for you.

Yeah, that was a great suggestion.

And this is a this is a good it's a neat park, so it's this gonna be a great story.

Nestled along the Rio grand in southwestern Texas, Big Ben National Park spans over eight hundred thousand acres, making it one of the largest national parks in the United States.

The park is named after a sharp curve in the Rio Grande that defines its southern boundary, where the river carves out majestic canyons like Santa and Lena and Bokias.

There's a stunning variety of terrains, from rugged desert expanses and limestone cliffs to the forested Chisos Mountains, which ries dramatically from the desert floor.

This unique blend of ecosystems support an extraordinary diversity of light, including over twelve hundred plant species and hundreds of bird species, making it a retreat for nature wildlife enthusiasts.

Beyond its natural beauty, Big Bend offers a sense of solidis an adventure that's hard to find elsewhere.

The park's remote location and minimal light pollution makes it one of the best places in the United States for stargazing, with night skies so dark they revealed the Milky Way in a magnificent way.

The clarity is incredible.

There are so many outdoor activities, hiking scenic trails, rafting through the river canyons, camping under the stars, and exploring fossil sites that tell stories of ancient light.

The area also holds a deep cultural history, with evidence of human habitation dating back ten thousand years, including indigenous peoples and early settlers who shaped the region's legacy.

Okay, I gotta stop right there.

We gotta tab a chat about this park.

Have you ever been there?

Yes, this is one of the most amazing parks I've ever been to.

So we're there, Dwayne and Night, and we're in the visitors center and I'm trying to figure out why there's so many bats in the visitor center and I didn't realize this is the darkest park.

I mean, it is just it's incredible.

Yeah.

And so anyway, when we were at staying there, we stayed there one night and outside the front of our lodging we witnessed this spectacular sunset that was going on and then like an hour later, literally we walk out the back door and it's pitch black and the amazing stars that were shining.

It was this is a cool park and everybody needs to go see this one.

Oh yeah, I was there.

I don't know what month you were there.

I was there in December and it was like all the trees were just golden, you know color that was their fall yeah, fall leaves.

And I was with another friend this BD before Dave, and we hiked to the top of some peak.

I can't remember it because it was like over thirty years ago, and then we rode across the border to Bokias.

I don't even know if you can do that now, But now I felt bad because these little donkeys are so small, and I'm like, here, I am sitting on this little burrow.

I felt horrible, like a giant dog riding across the border to Bokeias.

The little town, beautiful little town.

Anyway, Yeah, amazing.

And oh the thing that's so cool about it too, is like you just you don't have the visitation is not that well visited.

I don't know about now, but you just don't run into the crowds that you do in some of these other big parks in the summer.

Well, I wouldn't.

I don't know that I would go to Big Ben in the summer.

But no, and I probably wouldn't go in the sumtime either.

I'm sure it's really hot and it's so remote.

I mean, you gotta drive a long way just to get to the park and there's nothing in between.

Yeah, but anyway, that was an amazing park.

I love Big Bend.

Yeah.

So on June twelfth, nineteen forty four, Big Ben was officially designated a National park, thanks in part to land donations from the state Texas and strong advocacy of local communities and federal officials.

The park was created not only to protect its stunning landscapes and rich biodiversity, but also to promote tourism and economic development in the remote southwestern corner of Texas.

Remote is an understatement.

There are so many geological wonders, such ecological richness and quiet isolation, which makes Big Ben an unforgettable experience in the heart of the Chihuahuan Desert.

Today, Big Ben stands as a testament to the vision of those early advocates and remains one of the most remote and least visited but most cherished national parks in the United States.

Well, our story today begins at old Or Road in Big Ben.

It's twenty six small, primitive high clearance, four wheel drive road that requires about country permitted, and it's not suitable for your standard passenger vehicle.

So I'm not going down that road in my little prius.

I wouldn't make it good call.

Yeah, ten feet okay.

Used historically in the early nineteen hundreds to transport Or, the road offers excellent views of the Chisos Mountains, primitive roadside campsites.

There's interesting geological features like Ernest Tanaha Tanaha Ti Naja.

So drivers should be experienced and well prepared if you're going to go down that road or really any remote place in Big Bin, so carry plenty of water.

Definitely you want to have a jack because you're gonna probably get a flat tire because that road is very rocky, it's rough, and it's remote.

So February fifth of twenty twenty two, Big Ben National Park rangers found what appeared to be an abandoned vehicle, a pickup truck.

It was a two thousand and five blue Dodge Ram fifteen hundred with a Texas license plate.

It was located in a wash about a quarter mile off of Old Or Roads.

So not only did this pickup go down old Or Road, they went off old Or road.

Maybe they thought it was smoother.

I don't know, in a very remote remote part of the park, near a place called Roy's Peak.

So this location's approximately twenty miles from the border with Mexico.

What they found was that driver's door was a jar and the windows were open.

Okay, that's strange.

There was no one with the vehicle.

Rangers did find some personal belongings inside, to include a wallet containing a Nevada identification card number for a man, and we're not going to say his full name here, We're just going to call him by his first name, Hector.

And there were social Security cards and birth certificates for Hector and a child, and we're going to refer to her is Laura, not her real name.

There was a laptop computer in other school related items.

Also in the vehicle was a legal document showing Hector was a nine year old Laura's biological father.

A records check did show that Hector was also the registered owner of that two thousand and five Dodge Ram.

Okay, you come on that, Nancy.

What are you thinking when you see that scene right there?

Not good, especially where they're at, you know where the location is in that park.

I mean, that's that's just really strange to be out there and to find those documents and the school supply.

So you got to know there's probably a kid involved in this.

Yep, right, yeah, Now that would stress me out, and I think it did streuss these rangers out.

Gave them a little bit of urgency.

Right.

Rangers learned in their investigation of this abandoned vehicle that on January twenty eighth, twenty twenty two, just a couple weeks earlier, for tenty nine year old Hector and his nine year old daughter traveled from Fort Stockton, Texas, to Big ben National Park in Hector's blue pickup truck.

Because of the belongings found in the truck, it was believed that they may be traveling on foot and may not have the proper clothing or equipment to camp inside the park.

Remember it's winter time here.

Rangers find out the descriptions of Hector and his daughter, and they learn that they both have family in San Antonio, Texas.

Now they begin search operations for these two.

Searchers from the National Park Service NPS Investigative Services Branch, US Border Patrol, US Customs and Border Protection, and the Texas Department of Public Safety are all involved in this search.

Teams are hiking the area, driving the backcountry roads, and searching from air using helicopters.

Although the whereabouts of Hector and his daughter are unknown at this time, investigators believe they may still be in Big Bend National Park.

I wonder what made them think they'd still be in the park.

Well, because it's twenty miles from anywhere I would think, you know, well, yeah, and if you're on foot, they don't know.

They're not going to travel that fast, are they, especially with a little girl?

Yeah, nine year old.

Yeah.

During the systematic ground search, search personnel located numerous personal items strewn about within a few hundred yards of the vehicle.

Farther down the wash.

These items included adult and child clothing, children's backpack, toiletries for an adult and a child, and children's toys.

Locks of hair six inches long, which appeared to have been cut, were also found, along with human waste.

Okay, that's creepy, and that makes me think that maybe he cut this child's hair to disguise her or something.

That was my first thought too.

It matches the child, so yeah.

A small animal cage was discarded in the wash.

Now that one comes oh me, maybe I was thinking a cat or.

I don't know, like that kitty cat that was in its cage that got just falling off the cliff in Bryce Canyon or something.

Right.

Border Patrol agents ONSEEN assessed that these items were not consistent with those typically left behind going through the area.

Subsequent investigations revealed Laura to have had hair matching that which was found, and that she had a pet rat.

Oh, okay, let that rat go.

Oh.

Maybe that was good for the rat instead of living in a cage.

I don't know, or maybe they ate it.

I don't know.

Footprints the size of Laura's and Hector's shoes were found leading out into the desert.

Well around this time, I actually received a call from the lead ranger on this case.

At the time, I was the Victim Assistants program manager, So the ranger called me because he wasn't sure, but thought this might be a case involving a child victim.

And at the very least they needed a family liaison to work with a child's family as well as Hector's family to provide updates on the status of the surge, because you know, these people still have family members and now they know Hector and this child are missing, and that's kind of scary, So they wanted very least a family aison.

There were multiple family members, and I believe Hector was Laura's custodial parent.

She didn't live with her mother, and I don't know what that was about, and I don't know if there was I don't think there was even shared custody.

There's something off about that, but is also as I remember, she was very close to her paternal grandparents, which we did work with them, you know, keep them updated.

So that was Hector's parents.

So I assigned the victim specialist whose duty station was at Grand Canyon, so it was a little bit closer.

And also she'd worked another case in Big Ben and she took over those duties the lead ranger in the whole team, they were aggressively pursuing information that could have helped locate this child victim who was possibly in a dangerous situation.

Sure concerned family members was notified that the child was potentially at risk, they were continuously attempting to contact the ranger just and you know, that's what they do.

You know, that's one reason why we want a victim specialist or victim advocate to kind of also be the intermediary between law enforcement and victims so the law enforcement can continue to work on their investigation instead of it is hard when you're constantly talking with the family member.

Not that that's a that's not a you know, I'm not saying that's they should never talk to the family member, but they've got to do their job for what's best for this potential victim or and who knows about the father?

Are these people lost?

Are they hypothermic?

Are they deceased?

You know, they don't know, so right right?

And they stay out in the field and keep working those leads yet.

Right right?

So, according to court documents that we found, investigations revealed that Hector and Laura moved to Fork Stockton, Texas two years prior.

I'm not sure where where, maybe Nevada because he'd had that Nevada I d anyway on or around January fourth, twenty twenty two.

So again before this search began, they learned that Hector withdrew Laura from school and did not enroll her in her new school.

So I checked around.

This is really good investigation work.

They around, there were no other schools that had her as a new student, and so honor around January twenty sixth, so just what two three months, three, I'm sorry, three weeks after he pulled her out of school.

The telephone number used by Hector was disconnected and supposedly due to nonpayment, so Honor.

Around January twenty seventh, Hector called his place of employment in Fort Stockton and told them he was not going to show up for a shift that day, and I believe he worked at a grocery store and that day the same day, a camera recorded Hector's pickup entering big Ban National Park at the Persimit Gap.

Interest.

Gotta love those cameras at the interstations, and.

You gotta love those cameras.

Yes, The temperatures in big Ben National Park between January twenty eighth, twenty twenty two and February thirteenth, twenty twenty two reached lows down to ten degrees fahrenheit.

That's cold, very cold.

The area also experienced heavy rain during this period.

Man the area of big Ben National Park where Hector's vehicle was found offers no food, no water, no shelter.

The terrain is rugged with mountains, jagged rocks, and cactus.

The ranger stated in his criminal complaint that, based on his training and experience, he knew this area to be a route used by undocumented immigrants to enter the United States illegally.

So I don't know if he meant that as a cause for concern, or maybe it meant that they could possibly find other witnesses that may have seen them on this route, or if he just thought it would be a route that they would most likely take.

Yeah, well on February thirteenth.

Okay, so now they're missing the date that they were discovered the pickup.

It's been just over barely over two weeks.

So February thirteenth, Hector and Laura were observed from the Hot Springs area in Big Big Bend National Park.

So good on these rangers.

A couple of rangers hiked up a hill to obtain a vantage point of the area where Hector and Laura were believed to be camping.

So maybe they got some intel.

And so they're still in the park in the US, and they get up to the top of this hill and they can see the Mexican side of the Rio Grande.

So as they watched, they saw an adolescent who didn't did not appear to be matiated or in any harm, but they saw her gathering firewood, and then they took pictures of the two.

The location of their campsite was about twenty miles from Hector's abandoned truck, so the next day of February fourteenth, Mexican authorities located them as a courtesy.

You know, there's now we've got FBI involved, and there's so many agencies work in this case.

So and you know, they said, hey, this is where they are, near the Rio grend River in Mexico.

And so the Mexican officials conducted a welfare check after discovering that Hector and Laura did not have proper documentation to remain in Mexico.

So that's kind of you know, you don't hear about it going that other way, Like me, a documentation there too, minimal.

I kind of looked up.

It's like passport and then you need some other things, I guess if you're going to try to remain in Mexico.

Authorities took them into custody and they probably didn't have any documentation or identification of any kind, because remember they left all of their ID papers like birth certificates, social Security numbers in their vehicle.

And I doubt they said, oh, well, just will have a passport and take a They probably didn't have a passport.

Either, probably not.

And that's what I was thinking, is that they left all their documentation in the truck, which is kind of weird because he seems like he'd kind of been planning this.

You'd think that those would be some of the documentation that you would absolutely have with you.

Or you didn't want anybody to find that documentation to be able to identify that you are a fugitive maybe at some point true, yeah, yeah, and that this is the child.

You could just give this dark calling this child another name.

I don't know, I don't know what was going on the mind, but the child.

Laura was deported back to the US from Mexico and turned over to the custody of the National Park Service so she could be transported to the custody of Child Protective Services, and while the park rangers were traveling from Bokias del Carmen Carmen Bokias del Carmen Port of Entry to the Persim and g A visitor center where CPS would be waiting.

Officials initially described Laura as being in healthy condition, despite a bitterly cold winter storm that had swept into the Big Ben area just before they searched for them.

However, Laura actually said to the park rangers that they ran out of food and she had not eaten in four days.

She told them, thank god, we came across some kayakers and they gave us wraps to eat.

They probably couldn't have had that much food with them anyway, and they've been gone you know that long.

Yeah, Wow, that's that's scary.

Hector was arrested on February fifteenth, and at his detention hearing, they denied bond.

They ruled that he would be a flight risk if released on bond.

I agree, don't you agree?

Well, right, I mean he's already shown, he's taken off and you know, yeah, a grand jury and Hector for endangering a child under Texas Penal Code twenty two point zero four one, assimilated through the Assimilative Crimes Act eighteen USC thirteen because the offense occurred on federal lands, which was Big Ben National Park.

At trial, the defense pushed back on the government's claim that the daughter was actually in jeopardy, noting that she did not require any emergency medical attention when she was found.

The government called nine witnesses, and there was a lot of information that came out during the trial.

Yeah.

According to some coworkers where Hector worked, they said he often talked about wanting to live off the grid and move to Mexico with his daughter.

So he has said that and in twenty twenty one, I remember, all this is a COVID era, right.

Yeah, he checked out several books from the public library that pertained to wilderness survival and information that I got during this case.

And this was not documented in court documents or anything, but what I was told like he became I don't know if paranoid's the right word, or very conspiracy theory minded and had real concerns about what was going on at the time.

And one of the reasons why he wanted to take his daughter out of school was because something about her laptop computer and he did not want he did not want her to be using a computer, and the schools were full of computers.

So some strange things there that I think will influence his decisions to take her out of school.

A park ranger testified that that wash the wash area was a sandy bottom where water travels and was within a valley with mountain peaks on either side, and that the two like Hector and Laura, had constructed a makeshift camps around the vehicle and stayed there for several days.

So I guess nobody sees them because they go off the off road area and they're stuck.

I think it was a flat tire and they're stuck, and so they actually stayed there for several days.

Then they started to walk toward Bokias Town in Mexico.

You know the one where I rode the little donkeys too.

Okay.

They took a survival book in three backpacks of supplies.

All right, Well, the backpacks contained this is what you said.

They couldn't have taken much food, but they contained vitamins, honey, sunflower seeds, fish oil, omega threes.

They had two jars of beans.

I don't know if it's cans or jars, because glass jars are heavy.

They had a loaf of bread, peanut butter, four cans of spam, a large can of sardines, gallon jugs of water.

That's heavy.

Yeah, stuff.

You have to take your own water because there's no water, but to carry two gal and plus you're gonna drink that pretty quickly, you're just gonna be thirsty.

But about three days into their walk, Hector Laura ran out of food, and Hector gathered berries for them being out.

The documents didn't say what kind of berries, But from that point until they were found on February fourteenth, Laura said she estimated that they consumed about a half a gallon of berries of day, and somebody figured out that equated to about thirty berries.

I guess.

I don't know if that they consume half a gallon berries per person or.

Just yeah, or just per day.

Probably just per day, because it's it's hard to get half a gallon of berries.

Have you ever picked tackleberries?

No, but I've picked ity beaty strawberries here.

Yeah, it takes a while.

It takes a while.

Else take them.

While, especially if you eat them ass you go.

Problem mine do?

Okay?

This is other things they ate along the way.

They ate, quote, a couple of minnows and a frog, and they found the frog dead in cold water.

So this is what Laura had told the rangers as well.

They ate.

I hoped, I hope they were able to cook the frog.

You know, well unless frog that you know, that would be a good score.

But if it's already dead, you don't know how nasty it might be.

Right, that's a big thing in the South, frog legs going frog gigin.

I have been frog gigging, and the frogs legs are good fried, of course, tastes like chicken.

I've eaten frog legs cooked fried.

Yes, they taste like chicken.

Everything tastes like chicken.

Everything tastes right.

Well.

They also had four granolas that some hikers had given them, which is interesting.

They say hikers, not necessarily undocumented immigrants hiking.

They just said hikers.

Hikers.

Yeah, And after crossing the Rio Grande River, a rap and an orange were given to them by the kayakers and so A ranger also testified that a child would require one pound of food per day on a trip like the one she and her father undertook.

So think about that walking twenty miles in cold temperatures, in steep terrain, and then trying to sleep in those very cold temperatures.

I'm telling you, if I didn't have the best bag and a whole bunch of hand warmers thrown in my bag, I'm not sleeping in ten degrees fahrenheit.

Yeah.

If I'm sleeping, it's due to exhaustion, and that's it.

And then you would think you would get hypothermic.

I'm just that's kind of amazing.

So you would need a lot of calories to complete that journey.

And another ranger testified that when he saw Laura in person, she did appear to have lost weight.

They had other photographs of her, and so when they compared how she looks now to a very recent photograph, she did lose weight.

You would have to based off of the lack of stuff that they had with them.

The jury returned a guilty verdict.

The jury believed that Laura was in imminent danger of bodily injury or impairment by not providing adequate food while on an extended journey by foot in a hostile, sometimes freezing environment.

The court imposed a sentence of five years of probation and a special assessment of one hundred dollars, and he was ordered to undergo psychological evaluation, mental health treatment, and parenting classes.

In a drug test, Hector tested positive for cocaine, and a home search revealed several rifles in his possession, according to a petition filed with the court, but after violating the probation by possessing and using cocaine, the district Court revoked probation.

Upon revocation, Hector was re sentenced to two years in prison and an additional one year of supervised release.

You know, as you're reading that, and he had those rifles, so he would have been a prohibited possessor and I did not see, and that's a separate charge, So it did not sound to me like they charged him as a prohibited possessor, but they just revoked his probation.

So when he was on probation, Tarroot, I don't know, if you know, was he able, was Laurel with him or was that not a possibility because until the five years was up.

No, what I recall, I didn't see this recently, but I'm trying to go by a memory here, so I believe he had supervised visitation and because it was what was really hard was the grandparents that she was close to, and I believe that's where she stayed after this, and it was not in the same town that he was allowed to visit with them there, because that was a whole thing.

I kind of remember that going on.

That was sort of a whole thing, Like, you know, he could not could not visit her.

I think they did work something out where he could, but while she was in the care of her grandparents.

And so can you imagine being those grandparents, like this is your son and then you're kind of you've got no custody of the daughter or of his daughter, your grandchild, and so you're supposed to some how make sure your son doesn't get to see your grandchild and then or you would be in trouble, you know, right if you facilitated that.

So I really can't say exactly how that went down there.

It was the whole big thing.

And since you know what, we were putting this together.

I didn't find any of those details in there.

I just know was the thing.

I don't know how it worked out.

I feel bad for the grandparents to talk about being between a rock and a hard place, yeah, exactly, and.

They were okay.

This trial or just any trial, is very hard on a child victim, Like I was kind of surprised this went to child, but he was going to fight this.

He did not want, you know, to be found guilty of child endangerment.

And this one in particular was hard because Laura loved her dad and she did have a hard time understanding why he was in jail at all.

She really didn't understand.

And it was so essential and so beneficial to have a victim specialist that assisted this child and the other family members throughout that whole criminal justice process.

There were multiple victim advocates dealing with her, working with her.

There was the NPS victim specialist, there was an FBI victim specialist, actually there were two, just that it worked out anyway.

And then you had Child Protective Services, and I know all of them.

They worked together and they coordinated their assistance to Laura, so she wouldn't be confused, or she wasn't like passed on from person to person to person, and she wasn't mishandled in any way, because that's really really difficult and confusing on a child.

But I want to read something that the lead park ranger in this case wrote about the National Park Service victim specialists.

So he sent me this really long email of appreciation for the work done by her.

And I'm not going to use either the rangers or the victim specialist names, but here's just an excerpt, kind of law excerpt, but I just want to read that so people can understand how valuable she was to this case.

So he says, the victim specialists remained pivotal in maintaining a clear, inconsistent flow of information between law enforcement, investigators, searchers, and concerned family members.

Once located, the father and daughter were separated and the father was charged with endangering the life of the daughter.

The victim specialist, now working as a victim advocate for the child and the child's extended family, who was also related to the father, was crucial in deconflicting many of the complicated emotions that arose during this investigation and ensuing communications with law enforcement officers and investigators.

So this proved essential when the father's child engagement case was brought to trial.

During the trial, the victim specialists tirelessly engaged the child victim on the child's roles the responsibilities within the trial where the child's testimony would be used against the father.

Okay, so think about that, this child has to testify against her father.

She doesn't even understand why why, Yeah, what she's saying is going to hurt her father.

So it was so confusing for her.

Her ability to not only channel the positive injury of the child to contribute to the delivery of facts for a jury, but to be present for the child's legal guardians and parents of the child's father, like we were just talking about those grandparents, and to inform them on the legal nuances of the trial.

That was essential the trial and ensuing justice would have not been able to have been carried out without the victim's specialist's help.

During the investigation, before the trial and during the trial, the victim specialist was an unsung hero.

She was invaluable to me as the lead investigator into all the additional law enforcement officers who invested great amounts of time and energy to locate the child and ensue the child safety.

To see the child victim well cared for and well advocated for during the trial that ultimately concluded in the conviction of the child's father was not the cold and callous justice we're so used to frequently seeing.

It reassured not only the child victim, but the child's legal guardians and the concerned family.

If there was one moment that captures the entirety of what the victim specialists did, it was during the post trial proceedings proceedings after the father was found guilty of victimizing the child.

The child who had testified against her father, still loving her father, knew she would likely not get to talk to or see her father for a significant amount of time.

And think about that for this poor kid and what she might have that feeling of you know, what I said, is the reason why I can't see my dad?

You know.

Yeah, so the victim specialists taking the initiative as the prosecutors to ask the judge a question that had initially been asked by the child victim.

She just wanted to hug her father, the judge responded.

Quote, in my forty years as a judge, I've never allowed something like that end quote.

But he did.

The child got to hug her father, all because this victim specialist was there to ask the question that no one else did.

That's pretty amazing.

Actually, yeah, I mean it was.

It wasn't like you're guilty, get the heck out of here, you horrible human being.

I mean they had to really care about this relationship.

And you know what he did was probably was out of love for his child, even though misguided and stupid.

Probably, yeah, I would say love for the child, but kind of went about it the wrong way.

Absolutely, this case definitely had a good outcome.

Those rangers did amazing.

Work, Kara, Oh my gosh, they did.

Hector had chosen a different place to start his trek to Mexico.

Who knows if they would have ever been found, right, Yeah, I.

Mean this was, like you said earlier.

And then there were other sources that said, definitely.

This was probably mentioned in court too.

This was definitely premeditated and planned out.

As we just listed all that out, why he chose big band, it wasn't too well thought out why he chose big band, Maybe just because it was sort of an easy short hike instead of just parking at the border and finding his truck.

Where they did, I don't know, just but I'd think if he picked a different place and some got into Mexico some other way, they could have disappeared.

Yeah, she had her hair cut.

Nobody was going to find them by their images.

They could possibly have just disappeared.

Yeah, she had lost weight, so he cut her.

He tried to change her parents by cutting her hair plush he lost the weight.

So yeah, definitely.

And you know, somebody maybe in another jurisdiction might have said, oh, look at this struck.

Let's just tell it.

This is kind of weird, and would not have just like, oh my gosh, these people are probably on foot, this is dangerous.

There's a child.

We're gonna find them, and man they did.

This was two weeks of searching, you know, this was two weeks up, So oh my gosh.

Two weeks with all those agencies involved.

Yeah, you know, that's pretty amazing.

Actually, very good coordinated effort.

Yeah for such a.

Good coordinated, good outcome.

Okay, well, thank you for that suggestion to do a big ben case.

I really like this case because it did have a pretty good outcome, So thank you again.

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