Hey, Hey, va fam.

I am so happy to welcome today's guest.

She is the host and executive producer of a show you might have heard of probably watched, called Equal Justice with Judge Ebanie K Williams.

Ebanie is the host and executive producer of Equal Justice with Judge Ebanie K Williams, which is a nationally syndicated court television show.

She hosts and is the EP of the NAACP Image Award winning Holding Court with Ebanie K Williams.

She's also guest host at the View That Breakfast Club.

You might have known her from a show called The Real Housewives of New York City, where she trailblazed, becoming the show's first black cast member ever, and her best selling book, bet On Black.

If you haven't go get it when you're waiting for It's better around since twenty twenty three, bet On Black, The Good News About Being Black in America.

The paperback version We Love a paperback for the Summer, was just released the past July, and ebany I am just so so thrilled to have you here.

We were doing a little minikiki.

I have been on your show before, but this is the first time I feel like we're meeting like one on one without sort of like you know, a topic at.

My cycle, you know, holding us at Bay Mandy.

So good to see you, my dear.

I love this podcast.

So I was really really excited when our lovely editor and publisher Krishan connected this opportunity.

So I'm thrilled.

Oh was she the mastermind?

She was she always pulling the strings of fantastic black women and putting us together.

So she's the best.

I know.

I'm so proud to be a legacy lit author.

You were one of the first legacy lit authors.

Not early stage, yeah, coming through coming in hot in twenty twenty three two.

But anyways, it's been great.

Well, the book came out then someone I know you had to you had to have started that book.

Started with for Seawan pre Pandemic, Yeah and yeah, a love Affair after that, and then so many great authors have joined the full, including yourself and brother Clarence.

I know you guys just spoke.

I see him back.

Yes my book club pick.

Yes, you as a as a book club selection could be behind me the whole month.

Well, I'm trying to support It's so it's so tough, you know, authors have a hard time selling these books these days.

You know, people.

The creating of the manuscript itself and the chiseling of the book and the work is one lift, but the selling them suckers.

Woo baby, that is a whole different lift.

And I'm trying to have my brain split in two places.

I'm finishing the book, but I'm also thinking about the marketing of the book.

Yes, and you're spending time thinking about that right now.

Good job, many Yeah, it must be that ambition in you, girl.

You know.

It's my problem is that I've been surrounded so many brilliant women who have done incredible things and published books, and they've all given me advice, So I can't say I didn't know, like I have no freshman author kind of excuse here.

But enough about that, all right, catch us up?

So what are you doing these days?

You've been on hiatus in summer.

You're a new mommy.

I am still a relatively I don't know how long do you're a pro mommy?

So how long do I get to claim new mommy ship?

I'm still a new mommy.

Five years is not enough time to call myself five years?

What would I be?

Maybe a director?

Levels like mid the C.

Suite yet management Mommy.

Yeah.

So my little daughter Liberty just turned one last week actually as of this recording, and that was really beautiful.

We had a great first year, Mandy.

She is so happy and she is so healthy, and I am happy and I am healthy, which we know.

We can't take any piece of that for granted, especially as Black women who have the audacity to give birth in this country and in the city of New York, which I would be remiss not to name shocking to most people.

Black women are really like eight to nine times more likely to die than our white counterparts in New York, which is beyond tragic.

So that's been a part of my new work, if we will.

I mean, I've always worked in the advancing and advocacy of black people and Black girls and women especially, but now that I have given birth in this city and have seen up close and personally where there's some good practices and where there's tremendous room for improvement, that will be part of my work moving forward and already is increasing awareness and best practices as they relate to Black maternal health and birth.

Was there anything that surprised you about the prenatal experience.

I'm sure there's plenty that surprised you post birth, but you know that healthcare aspect anything surprising you.

So a few things about my birth story that may or may not make it more unique than some others.

First thing, I was considered am considered a geriatric pregnancy now that we call it advanced maternal age.

So I was forty during my pregnancy and gave birth just week shy of my forty first birthday.

Okay, so that there is that I was thirty six when I had my which was most recent considered.

Yes, I was also a geriatric mom.

Yeah, we have to know every month, every week rather every week they were in there touching you and prodding.

Yeah.

And what I'll say about that, Mandy, is because I think if you don't know, it's easy to assume that maybe this is ego or something we're stuck on, like I ain't know.

No, no, no, no no.

From a medical standpoint, right, we understand physicians and healthcare professionals and nurses and everybody involved in this have a tremendous job to do, and it's a very important one and we thank God that they do it.

However, because of those kind of labels and standards.

It's very stemic in the way in which they treat you, you know.

So it's like, we do this for advanced maternal mothers, we do this for this, this, and this.

So one of the places where I see an opportunity for growth and improvement is while we can appreciate standard practice regimes based on numbers or weight or age or what have you, let's also be open to the individual aspects and variables of us as women and mothers.

Right.

So, what we know is every forty year old or every thirty six year old or every forty two year old is not running the same bill of health, right, so let's make sure that the care reflects, yes, the age, but also the overall holistic picture of health.

So that was something that I noticed during my you know, pregnancy, that it's like, I appreciate the standards and also let's look at my blood work, let's look at my heart rate, let's look at my actual picture of health, and let's move according to that.

And were they receptive for that?

Did you feel like, you know, well, you tell me.

What I think and I'm smiling kind of corely, is I believe that there was more reception to me doing it because it was me right, because I have a public profile.

Mainly, though more than that, I think it's because I'm a classically trained professional advocate.

I'm a lawyer, for God's sakes, and I'm a damn good one.

So I think that had it been another black woman, still educated, still financially affluent, because we know that these outcomes don't differ based on education or wealth.

You know, this is why you have people like Serena Williams, women like Beyonce almost dying in childbirth.

This is very important.

I think because of my increased skill set as an advocate and in this capacity is self advocate, I was able to probably be more effective than others.

And I will lastly end all this talk with where this showed up the most for me, Mandy, is I, for very specific reasons, wanted to avoid a cesarean birth.

I want to be very clear here.

Cesareans saved the lives of mothers and babies every day, So this is not a demonizing of cesareans.

But I, as most listening to this will know, had chose to go on this beautiful, trying and exciting motherhood journey solo.

So I'm what we call a solo mom by choice, and because of that, I did not want to put myself and baby Liberty in the position of being in postpartum recovery, which is already a lot, and doing it solo, not with a partner.

I should say I did have some help, which I'll get to, and also having to recover from a major, major surgery, which we know a cesarean is cutting seven plus layers of tissue and muscle.

So I wanted to avoid a cesarean.

And so there were certain things that I was insistent about, right like I didn't really want to be induced.

I really wanted to monitor any potosin very closely, just certain themes that once we start triggering these interventions, then these ones surely follow and next thing you know, it is statistically more likely to end up in a Cssaian position.

I will tell you, Mandy that my insistence on managing those dynamics while legs up, cooch open.

This peanut ball, that all of that has.

Over the course of what ultimately was forty five hours of labor and five hours of pushing, that was a real challenge.

And even with my public position and legal superior training, and this and that that was a battle.

And I'm sorry I did not realize.

I didn't know you were doing this solo.

God bless Yes, Yes, I had a wonderful black woman doula.

If I was just about to ask what was your what was your support?

Like?

It was fantastic all the support money can buy, and that prayers could answer.

I had a wonderful black woman doula.

I have and still have a phenomenal black woman obg y n that I had a pre existing relationship.

She's been treating me for eight years.

When I started my fertility freezing, egg freezing journey many years ago at RMA here in the city, I had a fantastic night nurse, a black woman who stayed with Liberty and myself for twelve hours a day.

She would come at eight pm and stay till eight am for the first four months, and she was worth every expensive penny.

And I don't know what surviving that postparton would have looked like without that that level of support for me.

Not that that's I remembering my post partner experience, I can tell you what it looks like.

Not great even with a.

Partner, Yeah, yeah, exactly, even great.

A partner, even with the support team, even with the night nurses and the nanny, it's still just an enormous feat.

So bravo's all the mamas that have done it and continue to do it.

But what a joy?

Isn't it such a joy?

She so for her birthday, I'm very non conventional, so I didn't do like a party.

But what I did do is have a very small group of friends who have really become my family toast her and celebrate her.

And she had a little cupcake shout out to make my cake here in Harlem and on the Upper West Side, and we also did a really beautiful photo shoot.

But the point of this story is there's a candidate that one of my sorority sisters took of me in this little intimate toasting, and I don't know who's cracking up shee'sing Big or me or Liberty.

I mean, she's just so brought out my inner child in the most best.

It really is the way that I can be.

I mean, I've been super transparent with BA family.

Postpartum journey was tough both times, but there's just something about sitting on the floor, just getting down to the floor, you know, like and just being along the levels on their level, just the giggles and the sticky fingers and the it's really it's been tough.

I just dropped my kids off.

I don't have a village here in New York.

I'm actually from Georgia.

I know you're a Southern girl.

Too, North Carolina shout out, Yeah, yes.

You went to UNC, right, Yeah, did you see U Ga Ga?

All right, I'm never edible dog journalism, girly you know.

School.

By the way, I've got some great frisks.

They came out of gu Ga.

Yeah, same for UNC.

I guess it's also known for some great journalists.

Yeah.

So, but my family, they're not around here at all.

My moms in Saint Louis.

My dad's in Atlanta, so really didn't have much of a village.

So I anyway, we I flew my two children to Saint Louis this past weekend and dropped them off with my mom and came back the same day.

It was a very long day of travel and they haven't been here and it's been me and my husband, and it's been weird and sad in a weird way, like I'm trying I enjoy it.

I enjoy it.

You know, it has been really hard with no breaks for like five years, through the pandemic and starting a business, and like my husband and I never see each other.

It's crazy, you know, at the end of the day, it's just like who, like, good luck tomorrow with the rest of your life.

I don't know, God bless I hope you're don't don't let you get still, let one of us get sick that it's like any other person to take it.

So anyway, we need to reconnect, We need to do like refresh the house all this stuff.

But God, I miss the fun I really do, especially in dark times like this.

Was speaking of dark times.

My light just went out and I want to illuminate it right Like.

It's almost like you have a career in television.

Heyba fan, We're going to take a quick break, pay some bills, and we'll be right back.

All right, ba fan, We're back.

So the name Liberty, I have to ask for how did you come up with that?

It's a big name.

It's a big name, which is why I gave her a middle name that is much more conventional, Alexandria.

So she doesn't want to do the heavy lift of all of that, Okay, she could just go by alex child when to give.

Her liberty, Alexandria, it's very it's giving, it's giving.

Yeah, freedom spirit America.

Yea, yeah.

So that was the basic answer, right is I've wanted from her very onset for her to be a free black girl in this world.

Right.

I didn't want her to have any question around that.

And we we both have lived enough to know that this world, in this country will make you question it every day.

So I wanted to give her a moniker that affirmed her birthright to be and remain free.

I also think, as I write about actually in bed on Black the good news about being Black in America today, I have an entire chapter, Mandy that I really explored this notion of black patriotism and you know, my own complicated relationship with you know, my identity as an American, right, and I talk a lot about kind of garvy and garvyism and you know, but also you know, because I was very much at one time in my younger years on that, you know, and on you know, and I know in this moment in America right now, many many, many, understandably many black Americans are on an exit strategy quite frankly, and that's valid as hell, let me be very clear.

But then I was also complicated and conflicted around, you know, the thoughts and words of the great Paul Robson, who talks very brilliantly, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially that while of course we have the right and ability to leave this land, he basically, I'll be damned.

You know, my ancestors, my forefathers and mothers, bled and sweat and put everything they had into this land and into this country, and we even more so have the right to claim it as our very own and as our homeland.

And I am leaving my homeland.

Period.

So with all of that, going back to naming liberty liberty, I think it's very easy for us as Black Americans to allow our the aspect of our Americana, of our identity, to be taken away from us, to be undermined.

And so we think of symbols like American flags or names like liberty, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

You know, obviously there's a very very far right, very problematic group of white women, the Moms of Liberty or something, and I wanted to complicate that.

I wanted to challenge that that.

I'll be damned you you all who actually perversions of patriotism and freedom and Americana as it's written to be, as it's supposed to be, And I will not allow you to have exclusive occupancy of these terms and ideologies.

So that's a long answer for I wanted to reclaim and reframe a black girl in America being free.

That's so powerful.

And yeah, and I wonder if you got a chance to go to Cowboy Carter, what'd you say?

Now?

Did you get a chance to see Cowboy Carter?

I did not, but I have Instagram, so I was.

I was happy.

I was halfway there, right, and I listened to it.

I did love all of the reclamation of the images from the flag to the red, white and blue.

And I know, obviously it was a conversation starter lots of think pieces, but it's one of my favorite aspects of Beyonce leveraging the global nature of her brand and star power while still being a country black girl from Houston and owning and and and her birthright as such as a black country girl from Houston, Texas to be really a founder of country in that way, she's you know, she's an a progeny line of the very foundation of American country western music, and she reclaimed it as she is entitled to.

I think, I mean, I I don't know.

I don't put words in your mouth, but I think as a Southern girl myself, I moved from Georgia to New York City for the career of my dreams.

Like there weren't really jobs.

Atlanta was not what it is today.

Back in it was hot Atlanta.

I remember it.

Maybe Hotlanta, but not for career girl, Like it did not help.

That's the point I'm making.

It was, you know, for some things and not as much for others.

Yeah, exactly, so for my career, I left, as you know, and I I diminished my Southern accent and I you know, I masked it.

You kind of code switch.

And I don't know if it's just becoming a maybe it's a combination of becoming a mom.

You know, records like Beyonce, that Cowboy Carter, everything happening who knows since in the past eight years, eight to you know, nine years, everything that's happened in politics, and it makes me as as an active protest and what you're saying, it's reminded me this feeling I have of like reclaiming those roots before it feels like somebody erases me, it tries to erase us from them.

So I mean, we're talking about moving back to Georgia.

I'm ready to, you know, reclaim my Atlanta roots and want my boys to know that they have a black mom from the South.

Yes, And it just feels it feels like an active protest, and it also reminds me.

It makes me think of what's happening right now when we have you know, I think just today Trump was on his social media platform whatever it was true, so truth social truth, socialing about the Smithsonian and how you know it's time the museums are the last woke institutions that need to be corrected and literally rewriting, like the threat of erasure and the threat of rewriting history.

But and I don't even know that it's a threat anymore, right, like you're saying, I mean, he's already this planged some and done some of it, Like they've already reduced parts of the Constitution from certain other parts of the exhibit that are, you know, contrary to how he runs this country.

I don't want to go to a tangent, but I will say, first of all, bravo to you Mandy from Georgia for stepping into that protest and that reclamation, because I think it's very powerful.

I'll tell you this funny little quick story.

When I first moved to uh, New York, which I'm for me, it was always going to be Harlem.

So I moved straight to Harlem now eleven years ago, which is crazy because in some ways it feels like I just got here, and then in other ways it feels like it's been a really long time.

So eleven years ago, I came here from La Though.

So my route was born in southeast Louisiana.

Five years of kindergarten to college in North Carolina, law school back in Louisiana, went to Loyola College of Law, back to North Carolina to practice law for about five years way to the West coast.

Just wanted to hop on a microphone in some capacity, So I went out to La Sight unseen, landed into talk radio, was out there for four years, and then twenty fourteen moved to New York for a gig with CBS News.

So I just got into New York one of my dearest friends from college went to Chapel Hill with me.

She's a Bronx girl, boogie down Bronx all day.

We go to a house party.

The house party was in Harlem, but it was Bronx Harlem affiliated.

And a young lady in the car we're all, you know, piled in and she's I said something something something, y'all, and just you and something something something else, y'all.

This is fucking New York, bitch, you know, like, we don't talk like that country.

Slow ass shit up here.

Bitch, what don't make me bam a slam your motherfucking excuse me.

I don't know how much how we can far we can go in this podcast all of that, because what you're not gonna do is shame my Southern identity, which is nine out of ten times your Southern identity, because the vast majority of black New York, black, Chicago, black, everything is the result of a great migration.

Great migration.

You know that if you haven't seen listeners, Henry Lewis Gates has a fantastic documentary about said great migration on PBS.

Check it out while we still have PBS.

And also, to your point, you know, Charles Blow along with others, are doing really great work around the reverse migration of you know, many black folks in this country returning to the South for political, economic, and social Uh yeahs.

Yeah, I'm definitely not alone.

I think that I don't think I I didn't clock that that was a trend, and I'll have to look at char I love Charles, I'm Blow.

Yeah.

I think you can't trust the Instagram algorithm to keep you on tas and people's business because I'm just like me and I haven't seen his stuff in a while.

I got to be more intentional about that.

Well, I love that.

That's part.

Would you ever go back to Louisiana or North Carolina?

Oh no, not me.

You're good.

Good on that.

I'm good.

I've become one of those annoying New York or nowhere people as it relates to America.

But I could actually see myself Mandy depending on you know, Liberty's vibe and how she feels about it.

Splitting our time elsewhere globally, Actually, I would like to spend significant time, more time in Acras.

I'd like to spend more time in Paris.

There's this other global destinations in the world that I feel calling my name.

Yeah, bring that liberty bell that's all over the world.

When you chose, because I mean you had a fertility journeys, that means you you had a choice.

You could choose boy or girl.

Well one derny, it's funny.

I actually couldn't because I only had one embryo that was genetically normal after all of that.

So the long and dirty of my fertility journey, I froze eggs at thirty four.

I only retrieved ten.

And I say only because statistically it's very important, because I know there's a lot of black women right now having needed conversation around fertility and egg freezing and IVF and I love it, Mandy, but a lot of it is limited or misinformed, right, So let me just clear a few things up real quick.

Freezing eggs and freezing eggs alone, meaning not embryos, And even if you freeze embryos, there's a caveat.

But just freezing eggs is a guarantee to nothing.

It's a guarantee to nothing.

And let me tell you why you don't know the quality of those eggs because we can't test eggs alone.

We can only test the genetic quality of embryos.

So if you're just freezing eggs, you're doing a great thing for the possibility of one day biologically being able to have a child.

And in order for that to be a pretty high probability, you need at least twenty eggs.

That's what most doctors are recommending today, so that normally requires one, two or three egg retrievals.

So now, if you're doing the math, I think ten to fifteen thousand dollars times two or three.

Okay, hopefully now of your time and oh that right that the money is just that part, which is a lot.

But then there is the process, the emotional, the time.

Luckily looking to it.

Ladies, many many, many, many companies these days do have some level of coverage.

Avail yourself to it on my tech girlies, get it popping.

Yeah, tech be paying for that.

Yeah, yeah, up in two, three, four retrievals.

Get given my husband's government insurance.

Great, because I'm thinking about freezing eggs.

Actually, yeah, as insane as that means, yes.

Well, no, it doesn't sound insane at all.

And in your case, since you're married, I'm presuming you guys will freeze embryos.

So here's the other the thing I want to clear up freezing eggs.

While no longer experimental and has come a long way, eggs are still relatively fragile genetic material.

So there's a lot that can go wrong.

They cannot survive a fall.

They can easily get permit it just versus.

Embryos are a lot more sustainable as a genetic tissue.

Also, again, as I mentioned, they can be tested genetically, and so you can know on the front end before you freeze them.

We've got five genetically help the embryos, we've got two.

Genetically, we got seven.

You can have forty eggs, and heaven forbid, they can all be non viable, you know.

And actually the older we get mandy as women, the numbers tell us that they become more and more and more not genetically viable, because as you age past thirty five, you know, it's just they're very likely to be.

That's why you're likely to miss.

All of us are likely to miscarry later in life, not because of anything our uteruses are doing wrong or anything like that.

It's because the eggs themselves are of the poorest chromosomal quality.

That's what's happening.

So I guess my real message here to black girls and women thinking about this is, if you're thinking about freezing your eggs, and you can freeze your eggs, do it.

I recommend as many cycles as you can afford, so two or three you on a bank, as many eggs as possible.

And if you are partnered with somebody that you feel good about being a long term at least parent with a marriage or partner or not, create those embryos and test them and freeze them and sending you all the baby dust in love.

Because I think if you want to be a mother, and there's a million ways to be a mom, including adoption and surrogacy and all the things, but if being a biological mother is even maybe important to you, you wanted to do all of these things as the best you can to preserve your options.

Because when I froze eggs Mandy at thirty four, I wasn't even convinced I wanted to be a mom.

I simply did it to maybe give myself an option.

And when I turned almost thirty nine, had just ended an engagement.

I was divorced in my twenties, but I was coming out of a really broken hearted long term engagement and all of a sudden dawned on me that I think I do want to do this mom thing.

I was beyond grateful that I had those ten eggs banked, but I was shocked and really disappointed when they only yielded one that was genetically healthy and she was a girl.

So that's why I say, I didn't actually get a choice.

Now, most people, if you've got three, two, three, four, maybe you do the girl love her.

Women that had five boy embryos, so they too didn't have a choice.

So it's interesting.

Yeah, the boy, the boy chromosome runs deep in this family.

I had two boys.

Everyone's having boys.

I'm just like, but yeah, part of me is I don't know about a third.

My heart says yes, my head says, girl, you ain't rich enough, Like we need to build, build built.

I want a night nurse next time.

Night nurse is a game changer.

I mean right, no, no shame, no tea.

If you can, even from a sacrificial place, like, it's worth budgeting for, it's worth saving for, it's worth cutting out something else for.

It really is.

It really made my experience not horrible, like at all, like I slept it was.

It was you know, like it was.

Does the sleep deprivation make the is the root of all evil?

Yeah?

Leave that one hundred percent.

I believe that, and I can say I didn't really experience that, and it's only the grace of God.

Liberty your skin sleeper.

Liberty is a great sleeper and also a night nurse savior.

Yeah, amazing.

Well, would you mind if we pivot a little bit into the business space leads in finance because you are a such a badass.

You've had an incredible career.

You're just getting started in a lot of ways, you know, And I say that with all due respect.

Obviously you've accomplished so much, but you have so much fire and drive and I'm just catch me up a little bit on the career journey right now?

And are you are you is it the corporation of ebony right now?

Do you have like multiple different like LLC setup or are you focused on you know, are you diversifying the types of business that you're doing now?

Like?

What's what's it all looking like?

Yeah?

So the center of like my business model is one umbrella LLC.

And you know, I've got a couple of doing businesses as under there, but primarily we're functioning from the mothership.

Right, the mothership overseas most things that are front facing, So that's gonna be all of my contracts, Like my Real Housewives of New York City contract goes through there.

My book deal contracts go through there, My podcast contracts go through there with various partners I've had over years, and we'll continue to have from the Black Effects shout out to Charlemagne, Warner Music, shout out to Interval Presents, and then you know our future partners Judge Ebny contract runs through there.

So all of those are the different kind of tentacles that create the ecosystem of you know, Ebany K.

Williams LLC.

Essentially, I do have a sidebar production arm Uppity Productions, which specifically over some of right, and of course my production company will be named Uppity Productions, which oversees things that are more content specifics.

So book deals, podcasts, stuff like that go through there.

Speaking engagements go through any cable, so it's not a lot of variance.

I guess that's the point I'm making because ultimately, anything that comes through my brain goes out of one of those business tentacles.

I made a decision, gosh, I don't even know how many years ago now, maybe seven that for me, I prefer all of my business structures to run through independent contractor services.

Right, So I no longer am available as an employee to anyone.

There's no job, there's no capacity in which I would ever function in that way again, which is not so common for folks in the broader journalism media space, as you know, because like say, if you work for Seeing, you know, if you've got to.

Hears to us, maybe yes, but this is my W nine.

Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be ninety nine or bust for me.

Right, but this is not an easy conversation to have with some outlets, right, who is it?

They want to have you on the payroll.

Very important to them.

Like I had a whole big steak up when I was at Fox News about this.

You know, they were very reluctant.

There have been other partners I've had that will remain nameless that it's because it's just very uncomfortable.

A because it's not common, and anything that's not common can be uncomfortable for businesses.

And then in business partners, that's the other thing.

Everybody's a partner of some sort.

Right, So this shifts the I don't want to say power dynamic, but maybe that is the right framing where it certainly shifts the working dynamic, because now there must be a bit more meeting of the minds, if you will, for each step in the professional engagement.

You know, everybody more or less has to feel that there's reciprocal value most steps of the way right for this to continue to make business sense.

But what it does, though, does for these companies is I'm out of their hair on benefits, on health insurance, on this and that, you know, So I hold the responsibility for all of those things as an independent business woman.

So that's why I always to tell people like, what are you right?

The reality is I'm a small business owner.

That's what I am at my core, more than a journalist, more than a practicing attorney, more than anything else, more than an author.

I'm a small business owner, and a part of my small business model is operating at all those other capacities as a journalist, as a public speaker, as an author, as you know, a judge, arbitrator.

What have you right?

Yeah?

I was recently I went to the National Association of Black Journalist convention and now bring that up because an ABJ.

Yes said, y'all were in Cleveland this year.

Yeah, Cleveland.

Yeah, it's actually very cute.

Surprised me truly, But it was also my first time being at NABJ in years, and I just missed it.

I missed.

I had kind of you know, because I also have a very non traditional career right now.

Obviously not a housewife and on cable news, but I have Yeah, I mean, I've done a podcast, and I'm working on a book, and I do like speaking and coaching and all these different things, and I guess I kind of stopped considering myself as a journalist so much, but I still it was sort of like me reclaiming those those roots, you know, the fact that, yeah, I mean, I consider Brown Ambition.

I've I've had sort of a year of a pivot.

I had a co host, Tiffany, as you know, and then at the top of twenty twenty five started doing the show independently.

Still love Tiffany, She'll be on the show next week, ba fan, But I yeah, I wanted to reclaim Brown Ambition podcast as a media platform, as a plot.

I take it very seriously.

I've always I've always taken it seriously, I've always tried to have used the same journalistic practices and you know.

And ethics that.

Yes, yeah, that I was that I that I learned and used early in my career, but not so I don't want to like ascribe a label to it so much like I am this, I am that.

But it was interesting to be at any BJ and see how everybody there secretly wants to be doing what we're doing like that anymore.

Yeah, I don't think it's a secret anymore.

I remember the last few NABJ conferences I attended.

May he rest in peace, the great Brian Monroe, Remember Brian, Yes, Brian, before he passed, was convening a panel of you know, me and many of my esteemed esteemed peers, Sunny Houston, Faith Jenkins, other women.

Uh.

I think we were all women who had at one time said it a news desk in a very traditional way in some capacity, but had since moved on to something different, some alternative platform, but that was still very much rooted in standards and practices and journalism by trade, So that that would be my framing for somebody like you man, you are always going to be a journalist by trade, as am I as I'm a lawyer by trade.

Right, Sunday's always going to be a lawyer by trade.

She just happens to co host the most popular show in daytime television, right.

So, but those trade foundations always guide how we show up on these respective platforms.

So I think for young people, especially hearing us or watching us and seeing how we move and like you say, wanting to now do this and that, do understand underneath it?

You know, for us old heads, as I call this affectionately, there's still very much practice at play.

There's still very much foundational structure and trade work as I call it, at play that I think makes you know, bround ambition, something that the other literal two hundred million content creators are not.

Hey, ba fam, we got to take a quick break, pay some bills, and we'll be right back.

All right, ba fam, We're back.

I want to be selfish for a minute, and since I have you here, just ask for some business advice.

I don't even know what my big question would be, but I think the thing that I've struggled with the past couple of years, well, juggling young motherhood with I call myself a stay at home mom entrepreneur because I'm doing the I'm doing too much myself, is what happening.

Embarrassed to say how much I'm doing by myself mom wise, and then trying to also be the entrepreneur.

But working on the book and juggling the podcast and the coaching business has been so so damn challenging, and it feels like, you know what books like, it's not a money maker before, during, or after cool first and foremost the marketing to yes, yeah, but a lot of work goes into it.

And you know, on the business side, I think the energy sapping, the energy draining.

I've had to pull my foot off of the gas in some ways.

That has led to like less revenue coming in from like the coaching side.

Podcasting is like relatively stable, but how do you have you ever had periods like that in your career where it's like you just don't feel like when you're the small business, when you are the person at the center of the spoken the wheel and you're not you know, operating at one hundred percent, and things start to like, I don't know, wane a little bit.

How do you build it back up?

How do you get oh, you mean, like when who I Love and Adoor Byron Allen's put the Kebash on Mark lewy Hill and My's Grio show, and that whole piece of income goes by the wayside.

You mean like that?

Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, like that happens, and listen, it never feels great.

Right, Let's be totally candid up front, right, But I will say one thing that helps me personally, Mandy's I always anticipated.

Right.

So I've been at this in this format for quite a while now, and they'll be inevitably these ebbs and flows where things that like when I started the year in twenty twenty five at the top of the year, there have been a few things that have come on my plate and it's not even September yet that I would not have been able to foresee and that have been additive financially and otherwise, and that has been great.

Like I had a brief partnership we did a mini series with TMZ where I was covering the Shawn colmbs Diddy trial alongside Nancy Grace and Mark Garrigos and har Harvey Levin.

That wasn't on my Bingo card in January, but it came on my Bingo card and I graciously accepted, and it was great.

Great for a bunch of different reasons.

But just like that came about unexpectedly, things go away, and I guess I would encourage you to try not It's about framing, try not to win.

Like you say, Okay, so, because this is sucking so much here, I'm not able to bring in the same level of revenue with the coaching thing.

Make sure that you are affirmed in the fact that while whatever you're pouring into the book right now might not bringing might not be bringing in dollars and cents next month or even in six months, but know that it will bring.

God wanted me to tell you this story.

So I wrote a book Quiet has kept before bet On Black.

It's a book called Pretty Powerful Appearance, Substance and Success.

Published it in twenty seventeen Mandy with a very very small imprint called Vita.

Anyways, girl, when I tell you, I got an email last week from my publisher there Jared, such a sweetheart.

He's like, I got a check for you.

What's your best address to myth Now I haven't even opened the check yet.

The check might be five cents.

The point is you never know when God's going to pay it off at some point in the future, right, like I wasn't expecting.

I never made any money I'm pretty powerful, like you said, not even one cent because there was no advance, There was no nothing.

Okay, that was a pure marketing tool that did allow me to make money keynoting, public speaking, hosting, and moderating panels.

So Pretty Powerful was very good for me, but not in a here's a five hundred thousand dollars check kind of way.

Good right, But as I'm managing new mommyhood, Judge Ebony was on a brief hiatus.

But we're actually starting production again in October.

Amen holding Court is now being the last year we've been independently distributing, which you know, that is a very different ballgame where you literally eat what you kill advertiser wise, so without the comforts of any minimum guarantees or other supports from network partnership.

So that has, you know, looked very different from an income perspective.

But then here comes this, you know, unexpected gift of a check from Pretty Powerful, a book I wrote eight years ago.

Here comes the unexpected gift of the TMZ collaboration.

Here comes the unexpected gift of a collaboration with Carlos King doing coverage around you know, important trials of the culture.

So I would just encourage you to name and honor disappointment and maybe a bit sadness when things get slimmer, and always hold the space for the abundance that it really does mean something is coming now.

I can't tell you when it's coming, but it is nowday.

I'm so good at that optimism.

I'm just like, yes, nothing that's for me can miss me.

The email.

I'm just like, there's a surprise waiting for me in my email inbox and usual and it always has, you know, and I think that's yes, yeah, it's that.

It's it's it's a law.

It's like the law of reciprocity.

Right when something goes away, something always comes.

To Revolt Black News.

I worked with Revolt for many years, first co hosting State of the Culture with Remy Ma, Joe Budden and Jinks.

Great, great time.

We had a great season, was going great, COVID hit Boom Show goes Away, Okay, that sucked.

We host We launched Revolt Black News during the pandemic.

Remotely.

I was executive producer and host of that for almost two years, which was a great run.

But as you know, in this business, Mandy, these runs we call them runs for a reason, you know, whether they're a year or two or five or ten.

I'm a marathon.

Yeah, some are sprints of our marathons, but they're always runs.

Right, Revolt Black News went away.

Revolt wanted to center itself in Atlanta, which they are currently.

My dear friend and brilliant colleague, Teslin figure Row is now the face of their Revolt Black News division, doing great work there.

The point is is my time there in that check went away, minding my business.

Now already we had a conversation and a deal in place, already executed with the Byron Allen for Equal Justice with Judge Ebony K.

Williams.

We had a year hold for filming just because of the schedule, because he has all nine of the major judge shows that are currently on, including Lauren Lake and Judge Mathis.

And it's great.

So I was kind of twiddling my thumbs a little bit, still doing holding court, still right, you know, still doing, but not in that daily kind of way.

After Remote News went away, Ring Ring Ring, get a call from Byron Allen.

I want to anchor a news show because I just bought a black news channel or what was that was it called I Haven't Black Juwing Network whatever it was B and C.

Yeah, black news channel, and I needed I need another anchor.

I heard, I heard somebody told me you anchor news.

Wink wink, So sure, sure, sure, next thing.

You know, That's how the Grio Show came to be.

And then we had a two and a half year daily run.

So you know, it's just you know, one thing going away so something else can come.

It truly, truly is that.

Yeah, the tolerance for that is something that you can't be taught, and it is definitely that I try to tell people and be really transparent about that.

You have to have such a tolerance for unknown and unplanned and unforeseen and lucky and fortune.

And I mean I use the word lucky lightly because I do believe there's so much sowing of seeds that happens.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've experienced those moments of serendipity where it's like someone that you met fifteen years ago or that you worked with on a project ten years ago.

You were both you know, very like early on something, and then ten years later it's like, oh, we get to collaborate and it's a huge opportunity and it's those moments are really magical.

Yeah, but is that luck particant?

I wouldn't personally frame it as luck, which is why I never even exactly.

Yeah, that's you were strategic in the best possible way.

Sometimes strategic is as simple as being a good person.

Call it like, just don't be an asshole.

Ever, you actually were being a good person, You actually were able to work with Thus somebody wanting to work with you again on something else ten fifteen years down the road.

Absolutely.

Yeah, Yeah, it's by going back to NYBJ and like being embraced by everyone there.

It was just nice.

It's like, okay, you know you and yeah it has to be like it's always genuine.

But those connections, I think you let your connections run dry and such your own detriment for wealth, for opportunities and all that.

I'm sure you experienced that.

I mean now that you are a lifelong New Yorker.

Yes, I don't know.

I lost it for me and.

You are yeah, but yeah, but it's your.

Single momming it.

You are living this.

You're an entrepreneur.

You're doing all these different projects.

Talk to me about your and also we talked about the lack of like predictability of the income.

Sometimes talk to me about your personal finance journey and have you picked up any strategies that you still carry it forward to this day to give you that sense of like financial stability and independence.

Well, you know, I will tell you my financial picture today is a blessing, but also one that is the result of ridding myself of some really bad habits.

So I will say what year twenty seventeen, I was earning probably in the top three percent of New Yorkers.

Even so I was I had a high end.

I was double dutying it at Fox News Channel and WABC Radio.

This is a lot of people forgot you, that you blinked, you missed it.

I was the first black woman to host a show daily on WABC Radio here in New York, and I hosted it with the ball people Curtis leiwa it's a great story over drinks anyway.

So because I was pulling in double and I was, oh, this is what one life hack that is not even a hack anymore because it's so well known now, even though not always well practiced.

Multiple streams of income always, always, and this one I learned from my mother early on, who was you know, always did something.

She was always a businesswoman, whether it was pushing literally in New York we have food trucks, but in Charlotte, North Carolina, we had like push carts of hot dogs and stuff and cotton candy.

It was that, and it was doing hair.

It was doing hair, and it was opening a daycare.

It was opening a daycare and running a semi truck company.

Like it was always at least two, if not three, literal significant sources of income coming in because if the people stopped getting their hair done, the childcare was cutting up the slack.

So that is a fundamental practice for me.

It's always having multiple streams of income, no matter how high the income is, and that can be challenging.

I think sometimes people think of multiple stream of income is code for no income is enough.

It is not that it is.

Literally you could be making six hundred thousand dollars on one income source and continue to have two or three others because to the point of this whole conversation we're having, you never know when that goes away entirely or goes on hiatus to maybe come back later, maybe because of this climate we're in.

And this is all industries.

This is not just what Mandy and I do, y'all.

This is I know people in education, people in healthcare, and people in finance who have had their employers come to them or their partners come to them business partners, and say, we don't want to let you go, but we need you to take a pay cut.

We don't want to end the contract.

We want to renew, but we can't renew at that rate.

So, you know, decreases in the income is a real thing.

So being able to account for that and manage that, for me has always been about having so many different streams of income.

Even when I was on Real Housewives of New York, which doesn't pay a lot the first few years anyway, you know, it was with them I had really you said, really, Yeah.

I didn't explain the real housewive.

I'm not a real housewife like Fan.

I will admit that.

Okay, I've tried to.

I've watched a couple of things.

I know I could, I really could.

Real Housewives of Atlanta had a moment.

This most recent series of New York had a moment too.

But but what is the what's the benefit.

What was the biggest benefit of being a real housewife?

Oh, for me, it was the visibility.

For me, it was it was very simple.

This is a very simple analysis for me.

Maybe it was all a business decision.

Let me be very clear.

I at my core and let me no housewife.

It's just a none of us none, None of us have been married on the season at that Louis Ramote's divorce, I'm divorced.

Liam McSweeney was never married.

So it wasn't about that.

It's not don't think about it literally is think of it as a cultural juggernaut, because that's what it is.

The housewives franchise, which now is going on twenty years old, which is when Orange County started almost twenty years ago, and even New York Star seventeen years ago.

This is a cultural juggernaut.

Now it is diminished in its impact and esteemed, but it is still a thing.

And certainly when I was on it five years ago, it was very much still a thing.

Like when I was announced as the first black housewife of New York City, it absolutely broke the internet.

It was everything.

I remember.

Yes, you're the reason I think I started to like, try, Yeah, I gotta see the shot.

Even people that hadn't watched New York before said, she looks like me.

I'm going to give it a shot.

It was a disaster.

That's another story for another day.

But it still worked for me in this way, and so I would still do it all over again tomorrow, even despite really horrific emotional cost, because I at my core Mandy am a nerd, will always be a nerd, have always been a nerd.

What I mean by that professionally is in this media industry, I have always been trying to sell a very hard product, which is interest in the law in politics.

Politics has gotten a little sexier, but it still has challenge.

It's never gonna sell like a podcast about sex is gonna sell.

It's never gonna sell like a show about fashion it is gonna sell.

It's never gonna sell like something about music is gonna sell.

Right, So I'm trying to sell something in a format which is television, radio, podcast, book, what have you, that is not the sexiest thing on the marketplace.

So I needed something sexy.

I needed something that was just gonna get me in front like of a massive audience, and also I was coming off of a five year stint at Fox News Channel.

Now if you ever actually saw me on Fox News Channel, you will only applaud and celebrate incredible work that I did at that network in a very hostile environment.

God bless.

But the reality is, and I understand it.

I'm not naive to any of it.

How many people in a mainstream and black culture sense, or mainstream culture in general are sitting around watching Fox News Not very many.

Even so, I kind of had a bunch of niche audiences that were familiar with me, Mandy.

I had a Fox News following, I had a breakfast club following.

That's cool.

I had, you know, people that kind of knew me from this or that or this or that.

But I never had like a crazy broad mainstream reach.

And Bravo was the perfect vehicle to be able to provide that because overnight I became somebody that was much better known than.

Before, which allows you to tell your to really expend your pow to.

Tell all the other tentacles, I mean, perfect proof of concept of this.

I haven't been on Real Housewives in five years, but when I was pregnant with baby Liberty and wanted to leverage my position as a public person to advocate around the power and beauty of single motherhood by choice as one of many options for Black women and women generally to become mothers on their own terms.

Me and me may reeing, Hey, so and so and so at People magazine.

I have these great maternity photos, and I have a pregnancy announcement interested being done in the printed copy like cake.

That doesn't happen.

If I was never a housewife, Mandy, I could have been hosting the best show on PBS five nights a week.

It doesn't get the play and that's unfortunate.

I don't know my han'sure and the recognition the platform.

And thus, yes, it was.

It was a shortcut.

It was a cheat sheet, if you will, to leveraging exposure.

At a big cost.

You said, emotions.

It was an enormous emotional costs, phychological and ecological, emotional, all the things.

Yeah, was it the Was there like major backlash and on like social media from viewers or was.

It just that that was one thing and I'm not going to say it was insignificant, But what was much more taxing were the was the actual experience of all of the actual anti blackness that was occurring while we were filming, and then while we aired, and then after we aired.

You know, we're still the only Housewives series ever that never had a reunion.

And that was so obviously because that is just how radioactive my mere presence and my insistence was.

Twenty twenty twenty is when we want.

It aired in twenty twenty point and now here we are five years later, and most would say that the franchise never recovered, like you know, like you said, he tried to have a reboot, but they're on Paul because like for me, it's to cite one of the most famous housewives, I think the most famous Housewife ever, Needy Leaks.

You never win when you play dirty.

You never win when you play dirty.

And because everybody involved in the creation of that show was so utterly ill equipped, just utterly lacked the cultural competency to manage the dynamics as they related to race and identity on that show, with that cast and then ultimately with their own audience, it was horrendous and there was no repentance for that, There was no accountability for that.

And so when the answer just becomes fire, everybody hire all new people.

And let's try it again in that too, doesn't really work in the way that it was supposed to, because you've not you just built a house over a demoed existence.

You didn't reset the foundation, you didn't clean the bones, you didn't do an autopsy or restructure.

You just built over a shitty foundation.

And I thought that was actually very unfair to the new ladies, to the new cast members.

Yeah, I'm well, I'm I mean, I'm I'm sorry.

I think there were so many It was hard enough being in those like living through those years, you know, and to do it on public platform.

Then to not feel supported by, you know, this juggernaut, this institution that was using you as much as you were, you know, benefiting from that, they also were using you like you were giving them, you know, you were the start.

Giving them credibility, right, I was supposed to be giving them.

Look, look how inclusive we finally are after thirteen years of shooting a show in the most diverse cultural city in America, twenty five percent black and twenty six percent Latina.

We're gonna put this black woman on this show, and we're gonna think it's gonna be great TV because we expect chaos, But I don't know that they were prepared for as rooted in anti blackness as the chaos would ensue.

I think that was the issue, and for that I don't fault them.

I want to be clear, Mandy.

I can believe that they didn't anticipate that.

But once you saw it and once it was among us, we have to address it.

And that was never done.

Have you watched the new iteration the New York.

No, No, I'll be and I always have been very can I hold entirely too much trauma around the whole experience.

It actually ruined my whole ability, which is not that serious.

But I can't watch any of the housewife shows at all anymore.

Okay, not even Bosam.

She seems to be killing it, Beverly.

Yeah, I'm sure she is.

Have you watched a little bit.

It's so fucking toxic.

I just they have one black housewife and she's so toxic and the whole thing.

I'm just like, once, you know, I'm glad you off that show, Aby, I know it was Yeah, go ahead, I said no.

Once you know how the sausage is made, and you know the cost, the true cost of the sausage, it's not appealing anymore.

The baby Liberty in another seventeen eighteen years wants to go on Love Island or some other reality show.

What's Mama saying?

Oh, I'm raising going to be very autonomous, but what she will know is the full tea, So she will be making a very informed decision.

But she gets to be a grown up and make her decisions, but she will be making an informed one.

Right, I mean by then, shit, who knows what the reality TV scape will be like?

It all be AI generated.

Sure, yeah, So tell me.

You're speaking to BA fan right now, and you have things that are percolating and cooking right now?

Do you want us all to go pick up your paperback?

What do you need from us?

How can we support?

I can you support?

I want you to pick up the paperback, but I I truly want you to pick up the paperback.

Bet the good news about being black in America for your own service in this moment.

So one of the things when you pick up this paperback, which you're all gonna do, you'll see the cover is the palette is red, white and blue on a black background.

This too, is by design for any BA fam listening to this right now that is likely feeling disheartened, probably devastated, on the verge of erased and diminished, disrespected, and maybe in true doubt around positioning and longevity in this environment.

Getting bet on Black the good news about being Black in America today is one of the best things you can do for yourself in this moment, because think of the subtext, the subtitle rather the good news about being black.

There is I am here to y'all be a fan.

There is still tremendous good news about being black, even in America, and it's hard.

I think it's very hard for a lot of people to feel like that in this moment, Mandy.

And that is exactly why I wrote this book.

Even when I wrote the book, and what I know is that the book becomes evergreen in this way because this cyclical nature of this feeling that most of us are feeling now, but we felt it before and we'll likely feel it again.

And this is why having this book on your shelf is so important, because you can pick it up, you can read a chapter or two, or all of it pop the audio book, which of course I read on you do.

I bet you're great.

I bet it's great.

I gotta get that.

Yeah, yeah, just having that in your ear, having that on your mind in this moment is more important now than ever.

We got to remember the good news about who we are and whose we are.

Amazing, and that's holding court, coming back, holding.

It's absolutely coming back.

You sound like everybody covering did, and you covered the Ditty trial a little bit.

You sound you sound like all of my just gruntled jurors, Mandy, it is coming back.

Saying like legal legal news influenzers.

I feel like I had a huge I don't know, they always did.

When there's it's a big case, the Blake Lively thing and the Diddy thing, and I'm like a voice like yours and a mind like yours, I'm just like, yeah, i'd be in the mix.

Yeah, here's the thing.

Thankfully, like the TMZ opportunity and the Carlos King opportunity allowed me to be in the mix.

Afford really the word is afforded me to be in the mix, because while I love being in the mix, I'm never in the mix for free.

Now, I guess that, y'all cut I never ever in the mix for fucking free.

Nope, don't do it.

So unless there's a soap company, a plant company looking around my house girl, a paper towel company that can support me being in the mix.

Pampers, Pampers, Formula, Little Spoon, what hello.

Unless they're supporting me in the mix, I will not be in the mixture.

You're gonna have to find somebody else in the mix.

And I say that respectfully to all the influencers.

I am not an influencer.

I'm a businesswoman, as I've said before, so holding Court will be back all of that to say this fall for sure.

But as we speak in real time, I am finalizing conversations with potential partners.

One of them will work or we will continue to operate independently.

Okay, Well, I am excited because I know you're not just no influencer, and I'm just like, no, you're grown up.

We need a grown up in that room.

I've grown up in that room.

And I'm humbled by that.

I'm honored by that.

But you feel me, it must.

Any feeling you, Yeah, and it doesn't feel like I mean, I don't know what your experience has been, but like it's been a weird year for brands and marketing budgets and it's whatever.

It's the wild Wall West out here, even for those of us who have won the end of because that's the other thing.

And I'll tell BA audience this on my way out.

And Denzel talks about this all.

First of all, who is not living for Uncle Denzel's press.

Tours like they I have so many clips to say that people send me up save and go watch it.

They're all so iconic, right anyway, But Denzel talks about this, and this is a two time Oscar winner, saying the awards, the accolades, they're cool, they're great, but the reward is from above, right, And that is also true from a business posture, one would think, if you didn't know any better, that once you win the hardware, once you whether whatever it is, the Emmy, the NAACP Image Award, the Webbee, whatever, the gray See whatever, surely now all of the deals will come.

Surely, now that there's no more question about the editorial content, the popularity or sustainability, that surely this will unlock the magic gates of the cash flow.

And I'm here to tell you that's not true.

I'm here to tell you that's not true.

And Denzel tells you better than I can, but on a more mid tier level, I'm here to tell you it's not true.

So you have to really do what you do at the level that you do it for true, true, true reasons, the truest of pure intentionality.

Because if you're waiting on the things to validate and reward, you will be waiting.

The reward truly must come from above.

Well, Ebany K.

Williams, thank you so much for sharing your light and your your spice and your power with Brown Ambition.

I can't wait to I can't wait for ba Fam when you buy your paperback, take a little picture.

Yeah, guys, we can share it because Beavan buys some books.

Okay, Oh, and they're just enough to read one thing.

Anybody who has read bet On Black or listened to it on the audio, they just really same thing with Holding Court.

They love it.

It's like this was the thing I didn't know I needed it, but now I got to have it.

So I'm actually excited for any first time.

Really did your big one?

You didn't do another one?

You're talking to Krashwan about next book?

Get off my line, Mandy, why a mommy?

You know?

So you know these things are always in the pipeline.

But as you know, it's so.

But these books are heavy books.

These books are heavy lifts.

So you know, it's it's much like Lil Wayne says about his.

Carter Nurse Ghost Trader.

It's like Lil Wayne says about the Carters.

Everything is not a Carter, right, you know, and he really he could have kept this last Carter and I love Lil Wayne down.

Okay, so we must, we must wait for the genius to fully ripe it and then of course there will be another book at the right time.

All right, You're going to March's Vineyard like everybody else, Black.

And No again again, what did I say, I'm not going to be a no mix Mandy Free?

Oh right, okay, because then we quick to send you an invite.

But those prices for.

Where is the Chick?

Love you?

All right?

Thank you so much?

All right, Va Fam, until next time, okay, Va Fam, thank you so much for listening to this week's show.

I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney, our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for idea to launch productions.

I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together.

It is not a one person project, as much as I have tried to make it so these past ten years, I need help, y'all, and thank goodness I've been able to put this team around me to support me on this journey.

And to y'all, ba fam, I love you so so so so much.

Please rate, review, subscribe, Make sure you sign up to the newsletter to get all the latest updates on upcoming episodes, our ten year anniversary celebrations to come, and until next time, talk to you soon via bye