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So if it just clunk one of my screws got loose, I.

Know mine's really weird today too.

That's I love that you have a Should I make my mic visible in the screen so everyone else's is?

No, it's for continuity, Like I think it's the majority of.

My listeners still coming just through the audio.

But that's type A in me.

Because the YouTube audience.

We're going to manifest continued growth, slow and steady and for us to please.

Yes, yeah, we love our youtubes.

It's made me thirty four dollars and sixty four cents.

We love it.

Actually to the YouTubers though, because the comments they're just so kind.

The trolls haven't really found Brown Ambition yet.

That's good.

I did find that one episode after Kamala lost, but you know, since then, I just OURBA fan on YouTube is just so sweet and so positive.

So while while you're listening, go follow Brown a Vission on YouTube.

But let me say hello to my beautiful Brown Table guests for today.

They are familiar faces.

This is our six we're calling it our six month by annual Mama check in Uh with Jessica Norwood and Reina Campbell my two podcast and Mama Sisters in Arms, Sisters in arms, Like what we at battle, Jessica, is aren't we aren't we We're all fighting our but we're like the This is like the un We're just different countries fighting our waging our own wars, and now we are assembling to debrief.

But y'all have both become pals of mine.

Jessica is the co host of the Sugar Daddy podcast, which she co hosts with her husband Brandon Norwood.

And we have Reina Campbell, who is the beautiful, delightful host of the Dreams and Drive podcast.

Has been doing that for quite a while.

Almost ten years.

Like in next year, crazy.

I hit my tenure in September.

I didn't.

It kind of felt like a fortieth birthday or like a bird like I'm just like a little So I was like, I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but ten years, ten years is a big deal.

You should I know I should.

Well, yeah, I haven't been in like the right headspace.

I've just been I've come out of the closet Raina.

I told Jessica a little bit while we were waiting on you that I've come out of the closet and I'm kind of I'm opening up about my struggles with depression.

And at first I thought you were going to say something else.

What we're gonna say.

Most when people come out of the closet.

Anymore, Okay, you can't shock anybody anymore.

It's like s right by, who needs labels?

No, not that kind of closet.

The depression closet.

Just I've been talking more about I've had depression basically my whole life since I was a little kid, since I was about the age my oldest son is now.

And I think so it's just tough.

It's been.

It's been tough, and it's been like exhausting.

And so when the ten year anniversary of Brown Ambition came up, I had plans underway to do things, and depression won that battle.

I'm not gonna lie.

It just really had me.

It's had me feeling, it's had me very isolating, like isolating myself and withdrawing, and it's almost like a trick.

It's like if I just disappear more and more, and every time, you know, you disappear a little bit more, you kind of For me, it was sort of like not a test, but just like a way of validating that idea that oh well it's fine, like nobody needs or cares that much.

If I could just sort of disappear and there's no like big ripples, then I was right all along.

You know, I don't need to like this isn't that big of a deal.

But yeah, I'm just it's sad to admit that but in a way it feels a little liberating.

And I was hoping that one of the things we could talk about today is like, well, what I've been what's about on my mind?

A lot is being depressed as a mom and what a weird what a weird like relationship those two things have to each other.

It's it's bizarre, but it's also like in a lot of ways, like my saving grace, my like life raft amidst all, this is the fact that I'm a mom, and it like forces me to dig myself out of those you know, like those challenging times and oh like even talking about it right now, I'm still like a little uncomfortable.

But I haven't come out of the depression closet with y'all before, so it's my first time.

So thanks for Wedding Space.

It better be I pay for those river Side subscription.

It better be safe.

And I think it's just so timely because I've been thinking about like this, this theme of when you're a mom, that always is going on, right, you can't turn it on and off unless you want to be a bad mom.

And like as these kids, right, but for the most part, we all are intentional moms.

We all show up for our kids all the time, but at what cost?

And how do you, you know, navigate when you're not feeling your best, when you're not always want to be mentally there?

But you have these kids who are like, feed me, take me to school, you know, hug me, build.

A magnetile tower with me again.

Again, right, So yeah, very timely for me as well.

Like what's y'all experience been with like have you ever like as as mothers, I think there's a lot of we do I think as a collective understand like postpartum depression fairly well probably not definitely, not as well as we could, right, but there's at least among moms, like post prime depression.

The marketing campaign's been working, girl, Like we're aware, and doctors are aware, your primary care, your guy knows, check it in with you.

But being in the messy middle of like you know, mothering adolescents and they're growing up and they're so aware, and my five year old's so plugged in and me being conscious of like the kind of the kind of environment I was in at his age and sort of where my depression originated from.

It was from growing up in like a really volatile household where it wasn't like I wasn't necessarily the target of anything super traumatic, but I was a witness to it, and my being okay became really essential in my mind, like I had to be okay.

And I think, even as I'm saying this out loud now, I'm I always say, like, depression is a big liar.

It lies, and it tries to tell you that you're not good and that you're toxic, and that things will end up the way that like things will go in a in a bad direction.

But even as I'm kind of describing the way that I grew up, I can comfort myself knowing that my son.

I think about my five year old most because he's you know, so so present.

He's just like he's entered consciousness in a very intense a way.

Mm hmmm.

They always always listening.

I can't, you know, but I have to, like I have to remind myself that he's not going to experience what I experienced, and that I do feel at least I know that he's going to be seen by me, like I'm going to see him, and if he starts, if he starts exhibiting any any signs that like I was showing at his age that would have told someone who cared to look that I was depressed as a little kid.

Like, he'll have a mama who is so locked in, and at least I'll know I can support him through that.

But it's it's hard to parent, you know, a kid at an age when you know that you're like, it makes you it's like a mirror back kind of reflecting, making you think about your own childhood a little bit.

And I just got to I don't know how to put a bow on that other than just to say that's what I'm feeling.

Sometimes is like, oh shit, I don't want I don't want him to experience what I did and to be talking on a podcast thirty years later about how he's oppressed.

I've been depressed since five.

You you know, I mean, you haven't blamed anyone, right, yeahfully.

I would never, But being like, you know that book Grumpy Monkey, No you don't, Oh my god, Grumpy Monkey.

It's such a good book about depression without being about depression.

But it's a kid's book and it's it's the Monkey I wish.

I think that the name of the author is Susanne Collins we read it a lot, and it's basically a book about a monkey who feels grumpy and everyone around him is like, but it's a beautiful day.

Don't be grumpy.

But look at all these bananas.

Don't be grumpy.

But come, you know, the hyaenas are like, come, come laugh with us, and the the I almost a dinosaur, no, like keep it to the to the aa.

The gorillas like, you know, come dance with me.

And everyone's means well, but they're trying to stop the monkey feeling grumpy.

And at the end of the book he just gets to be grumpy and then the feeling changes.

Yeah, sometimes you need to just sit in the feeling and feel your feels.

Yeah, harder to practice.

Then, that's so true.

I've been feeling like that.

I don't for me, it hasn't been depression manifesting like in that way.

But I think, you know, I think we talked about this on our last episode.

But my father died pat last year in November, and so I feel like I've been navigating grief but not fully grieving because I feel like if I go into the throes of what it means to grieve, as you know, you see your TV and all that stuff.

Right, Like I just want to, you know, just scream and be alone, and but I can't because I have two kids who need me.

So I feel for me, it's like, how do I still allow myself to grieve but not lose everything around me?

And then like right now I'm dealing with the sick mother.

Like for me, I feel like I'm just constantly navigating chaos and trying to like make sure it doesn't land on the kids, right, like it's landing on me, it's landing on everybody else, but like I just don't want them to have to feel it.

But it's kind of like, you know, I was watching Chernobyl.

This is gonna be so so uh this is this is Have you guys seen have you seen that the HBO series?

I don't know, but I know what happened.

Yeah, it doesn't sound happy in rainbows, but basically.

There's a character, Yeah, there's a character who like I guess she her fetus absorbed all the radiation she was pregnant, right, So the fetus absorbed the radiation and it didn't affect the mother as much as it affected her her.

So I kind of feel like I'm like absorbing everything around the kids so that they don't feel it, but at what cost.

And that's really been difficult for me to navigate.

Like I just feel sad sometimes, right, and I just don't know what to do with it.

But I know that I still have to try to make moments of joy for my kids.

Although I'm feeling sad and sometimes it doesn't feel fair, but at the same time, it's not their fault, you know.

It's like this weird feeling of like it has nothing to do with them, but like, I just want to be sad, but it's just weird.

Carry the extra weight of not being able to just be sad because you're trying to shield them from her.

Yeah, And I mean I can just be sad, but then they'll be like Mommy, what's wrong, And I'll be like I miss Grandpa.

Then my oldest son, who remembers him, will be like I miss Grandpa too, and then he just goes down, you know, rabbit hole.

Wait, but in our last session, Raina, we talked about you finding a therapist.

Oh did you do that?

I did?

I did?

I did?

Okay, then she got a nine to five and she's like, I can't do therapy.

I'm looking for any one.

Oh, I'm looking for anyone.

I guess it wasn't working out for her.

You know, she was doing it solo and she someone approached her to work corporate or do something like I think with children, or she works as in the educational system now.

So I'm like, girl, we were just vibing.

You just went out and left me.

No, it's hard being a therapist.

Yeah, I could not.

Oh my gosh, taking one.

My therapist also got a nine to five.

I had seen her for five years.

She saw me through my whole first pregnancy, my first four years of my son's life.

And then she yeah, it was too.

It was really tough on her.

So she she like works at a hospital now for in the ob like with new moms and stuff.

Well at least it's like match to what she was able to help you with.

But yeah, it did help.

Although I mean I I was still like maybe we did like maybe five sessions, and I was kind of like, what's the point of this?

But I was starting to see the point of it, and she was like starting to help me, like just unpack some things or keep promises to myself stuff like that.

Like she's like, you know what, get your daily get your monthly manicure, right, even if you go during lunch at work, go out, get your manicure, get your pedicure, like little stuff like that.

That was helping me.

But now she's going, I have to find a new one.

Maybe she can refer you.

Yeah, that's just when you start to tell they start to know all the characters in the plot, you know, they remember names, and I gotta tell.

You all the details.

And she got it because she was also Jamaican American, which I think for me was a very important cultural, you know, intersection to have, like someone who really understood like the nuances of just being a Jamaican American and dealing with parents and dealing you know, all that stuff.

But yeah, I need to find another one that's on me.

But I did.

I did take that takeaway, take it that serious, proud of you.

That's really good.

I wonder, Mandy, I don't have the experience of depression, And thank you for sharing your experience.

And you know, I think we're here for you if you need us and when it feels right, you know, please let us know how we can support you.

But I have like some chronic health issues.

They mostly affect my back, and then you know, if your back ain't right, then you're not sleeping right.

And then it's just as this big spiral of like, well, you didn't sleep, and then you have to wake up and get the kids ready for school, and then you know, I'm still corporate nine to five, so then you're pushing through.

And so I have this feeling a lot where I'm like, I'm just surviving every day.

I'm just like, I'm not thriving.

I'm just making it barely to eight o'clock the next night, you know, where I can put the kids down and then maybe put myself down.

But I am thankful because I in those hearts moments, or when I'm in a flare up, or i have, you know, some really tough times where I'm just exhausted in my body aches, I can lean on Brandon and I can tell him, hey, I you know, I need you to go ninety five today because I've barely got five percent in me.

And so he's a wonderful partner in that way, and it always makes me really grateful that I have him as a support to, you know, do all the things that need to be done with the kids, Like he's completely fully capable of, you know, doing Aston's hair or taking her to her therapy sessions or you know, whatever it might be.

And it at the same time makes me like feel so so sad when I think about the women who don't have the support, Because even if you're completely healthy, even if you're not battling any kind of mental health struggles, being a mom is so hard, right, Like thinking about just the schedules.

Oh, now we're coming into fall.

We have to change all the clothing sizes, nothing fits.

They have no warm clothes.

What about you know, volunteering at school, and now there's the book fair and I've got to put money on their book fair account.

I mean, it's just like never ending.

So even if you're thriving otherwise, like the tasks of motherhood can feel so overwhelming that I don't know how people do it without a partner and I'm just so grateful for mine.

And I just want to like give a big hug to all the moms who are doing it alone because I don't, I literally don't know how you're doing it.

So shout out to the single moms.

Or with partners who are not.

Oh, don't even get me started where you're like a married single mom.

Yeah, yeah, that's even worse.

I feel like too, rite like imagine, I hear, I hear.

I know this one, this one person who was purposely single momming.

I think she went through fertility.

So she like, you got a sprim dover.

She said, like her and her group of friends are like a group of single moms who all went fertility and they did this intentional single mothering, which I kind of wonder of the effects later down the line.

But she was just like, it seemed more stressful to have a man who wasn't going to be there than to have one, you know, then to yeah, that's a whole nother story, but yeah, it is only if.

You're expecting I don't need a whole another adult.

In my house.

Yeah, if you're not contributing, okay.

Yeah, I mean I think that you expect.

The pain of that is like you have an expectation for what it will be like and then and and what partnership looks like, and then if it's not living up to that expectation or what you need, and then you're like, but I have this baby now, and you know, it's like such an impossible situation because there's there's not really like a right or wrong move to make at that point.

Either you know, your partner does what it takes to step up to offer that support, which can take it the long time to work on that, or you know, you make a move.

And you know my former financial planner, I got a newsletter from her for the first time and I don't know how long, and it was it really sent me to my knees, like my jaw was on the on the floor because she revealed that like for the past five years she's been like really depressed and was having this whole crisis of I don't know, like confidence and just like her her life was really out of alignment with what she really wanted, and she she stopped her she ended her financial planning practice, she divorced her husband, and her whole life had totally changed.

And that is what it can look like sometimes.

But that journey to get to that decision when you have kids, it's really hard.

And I think about my own mother.

My mom divorced when I was ten from my dad.

She really was a single parent in a married relationship.

And I'm and she got rid of him.

I'm still stuck with him and his big head and his stubborn ways, not wanting to listen to what does doctors say.

But you know, I always thought I always thought she was so brave to do that, and I like worshiped her for it.

But I think when you're in that you kind of you worry about what the kids are going to think, and you know, should we keep it together for them?

But that.

There's just no easy right answer.

But I just yeah, to your point, Jessica, at my heart is just aching for any woman, whether you're doing it alone or you're together and alone at the same time and trying to be a mom, It is about just day to day survival, one day at a time.

The idea, yeah, yeah, that idea of survival is something that I think it's something that a lot of moms aren't talking about enough, is like, what are the ways that you're feeling like you're just surviving?

Right?

I was recently at there's this conference in New York last week called Black Week, and it's like a week of like different panels and stuff across different venues, and I was on one with doctor Joey Therapy for Black Girls.

Well not on one, I was listening to one with doctor Joy Therapy for Black Girls and Tiana Madison.

She's a former like track and field athlete, And I asked the question like I had saw this quote on Instagram.

I don't know how real the quote was, but it was like, you know, working moms have the highest cortisol rate of all like people they say, like working moms like equal to three full time jobs or whatever.

So I was just talking to them about like the ways at which like we're ways that we can keep well across the board.

But I really thought about it though, guys, and I feel like the idea of just admitting that you're struggling is something that's so hard, especially for us moms.

Of just like if I show up in the workplace and say like I'm struggl They're gonna be like, well, no one told you to have kids, And I'm like, but no one told me to.

You know, It's this whole there's this never ending cycle of you want us to speak up.

When we speak up, we're not taking seriously.

So is it better to just not say anything and just persevere?

And I think a lot of us are just keeping it in, But at what's sake?

Right, and the biggest thing I'm dealing with guys, And I'll say it because I think it's public knowledge, Like my nine to five company is now moving five days in office?

No, absolutely not unsubscribed.

In January and layoffs.

Well they do exactly.

I won't talk about there's been like stuff that's been happening in the background.

But the thing that a lot of the moms, we've all been whispering to each other, were like the ones who haven't, you know, taken the severance package.

We're all like, what the right?

But no and saying anything too loud because a we all still need our jobs, right and who do we really like?

Who really has our back?

And when you feel like there's no one who has your back, you just kind of keep it in.

And I'm really worried about a lot of the moms come January, who are going to now like it's been five years, since almost six years since COVID, Why are companies now going backwards?

Especially if the profit Like what do the numbers say?

If the numbers say we're okay, we're doing well, we're maintaining or doing better than before, why Because when you say five days back in office, I hear minimum ten hours of commute time.

That's what I hear.

I hear and I physically see, like sitting in traffic, wasting time.

Paying twenty bucks an hour for childcare.

Oh, that makes me so angry that guys is probably I am.

I'm after here and like my kids have never known a world.

Also me as a mother, I've always been a mother where first it was fully remote, then it was hybrid.

Two days, okay, three days pushing it, but I can do it.

But the five days is just something now where I'm just like, is it fair to them?

Like I'm really nervous for how they're going to feel because they've only known me as a mother, like you know, showing up for them after school and having that flexibility.

But it's also tough to kind of think about like a finding something new like that's another stress, right or going into my own thing full time, that's another stress.

It's really tough.

And these are the things that work constantly.

Did you start did you start remote or did you started remote and then they started trickling it in.

Yeah, I started remote because I was hired during the pandemic, so everybody was remote, and then they everyone returned to office and then now everybody's the mandate of everybody's here.

Know why it's happening because too many dicks are still running shit.

Men are still the top of the totem pole and the top of the pyramid at these places, and as long as men are in power, these policies will continue.

Like they're chuckling and they're like, yeah, it's great to have us back in the office.

This is great.

We can all handle it.

I mean, there's just.

Yeah because their wives are at home, cooking, cleaning, folding all the laundry, doing all the grocery shopping.

And they can afford or they can afford the help, you know, to make it happen.

If you're going to ask people, like if you're going to ask your workers to come in five days a week, then and this is just like I don't think I can think of a company who does this, but it has to be like a family first company.

Provide benefits and resources so that your people.

Have a daycare in office, so I can bring my two year old.

You know, yes, you have a daycare, have an aftercare program, bust the kids in from wherever the you know, wherever they get in from school, provide a meal, dinner time time, stories of entertainment, give a bounce house.

And preferably a meal I can take home to my family too.

Let's be serious, like, oh, is there a grabbing go station?

Thank you?

Grab this on my way my family.

I know we're giving you a free Hello fresh or that I don't I still cooking exactly.

But I've been grappling with and I don't know if you guys feel like this.

Do you ever feel like you shouldn't complain in this sense of like you have it good and other people have it worse.

Like there are people who have like Joss, where they have to go in Like I mean, let's say you're a nurse, like you have to work in the office, unless you're like a virtual nurse whatever that is, right, Like, there are some career paths that you have to be in the office.

And I'm like, oh, there are women who don't have a choice.

So is me complaining about this?

Like am I just you know?

But I have to tell myself no, Like this is not the career path that you choose.

Chose because you want flexibility or you know that you don't want to be a mom that shows up only for an hour before bedtime and that's okay.

So I've been having to like affirm to myself that your desires are validated or valid you deserve to be able to be the mom that you want to be and how you want it at that to look.

And I've had to kind of like tell myself that because there's been this voice in my head like, Ranna, just do whatever you gotta do.

But at the same time, I'm like, but why I don't want to have to just say yes.

To say yes, yes, I think you answered your own question.

But now is the actual figuring it out.

It's the figuring out that, my god, that's just another thing to do and finding the energy or on top of grieving, or on top of just trying to make sure my five year old doesn't kill my two year old, and two year old doesn't kill a five year old, you know what I mean.

It's just a lot.

It's just a lot.

How did people do this in the past?

They had more kids, lived in the village school, you know, and a little.

Yeah, it was different, the community was different.

I think we talked about this the first time.

We did talk about community last time, and like and I and I have done my best.

I think I have.

I have my close mom friends and was as great as like it is to to call y'all friends as well.

We're not able to help each other really.

Yeah, not physically?

Yeah, what can we do for each other other than you know?

And is the most important part of.

It exactly can you hold a baby?

Can you can you pick up?

Like if you had a flare up and I was in your neighborhood, I'd bring you soup like I do my friends and like you do you do you need those like physical, closely close friendships.

But at the same time, I'm what I'm realizing is that like having a baby during the pandemic during that cold winter of twenty twenty, and also like getting slammed with postparum depression and like a bunch of challenges boom, I haven't healed, like I haven't really dealt with.

The doctor Judith, who wrote the book High Functioning Depression, calls it lower t trauma, lowercase TA trauma.

I haven't really fully healed from that lowercase tea trauma.

And I think that feeling of being alone and on my own and no one really there because at the time that I was so deeply isolated.

I'm sure y'all can relate.

I don't want to feel that way anymore, and I'm feeling that way, but I don't.

It's actually like artificial.

It's like depression is a liar, and I've been thinking of ways to fix that.

Even though I have like my neighbors and I have friends who are mothers, and there's nothing like I have a living mother.

I'm so blessed to say that.

And I have a sister who adores my kids and a brother who adores my kids and me, and none of us lives in the same place.

And I did make a I made a personal decision that hasn't become reality yet because it's hard to do.

But I'm ready to move close to my mom again.

And my mom and my sister are both moving back to Georgia.

They've been in the Midwest.

And my brother already is in Georgia and are from Georgia.

Yeah, I'm from Georgia.

I've lived in New York since twenty ten.

I'm hearing family compound.

Yes, family comn family.

The way go past the garden and go to Grandma's house.

You know, Like, so that's what we're trying to do.

It's been it's not easy because my husband has work here, but like it's becoming like an emergency for me, Like I actually don't want this life anymore.

Like I don't like to your point about surviving or thriving.

I'm just surviving every day now, But I think I could be thriving if I was closer to like that and just taking full advantage of, like I said, having a living mother, and you know these siblings who want to help but they can't because are not here.

The mother needs mothering.

Who mother is the mother?

Hey ba, fam, We got to take a quick break, pay some bills, and we'll be right back.

We have both moms here in town.

One is like ten minutes up the road and my mom's about thirty minutes away.

And even just being able to drop the kids off on a Saturday or Sunday for a few hours is a game changer.

And most of the time Brandon and I we want to be better about this.

I'm like, oh, we could do a lunch date.

Like it doesn't always have to be a dinner date, you know, Like I was just talking to it that I.

Was like, we could go to we can go to Chipotle and leave.

Yeah, you have to go grocery shopping together and then go to Chipotle, like, or get a capable like, it doesn't have to be something.

Who stand drive?

You know, you are getting an iced coffee and driving around like glamorous, huge out in the back seat.

Neighborhoods, girl, and nobody get time for that.

We want to look at mansions, you know.

But it makes a difference.

I mean, most of the time we are just doing errands.

Right, he's editing the podcast, I'm doing laundry, we're doing yard work.

Like.

We utilize the time to do things that are easier to do when the kids aren't around.

But even just not having somebody say Mama, Mama, Mama, mama every two point five seconds for a couple of hours, it's again, kids, Jessica again, six and seven just turned six and then I guess seven and a half technically, yeah.

Oh bam with the six and seven.

I know, well we had two under two in the pandemic and talk about surviving, not thriving, and still not taking care of pastor.

I'm still together, girl, I know, it's amazing.

I did throw a cheerio him once.

That's only in twelve years that I've ever done anything like that.

And yeah, I just I lost it and I threw a cereal box at him and he still loves me.

So here we are.

My our casualty.

Yours was a cheerio box.

We had a casualty or Google our Google home became a casualty.

You can do it across the room.

No, I didn't.

Husband cracked.

He cracked.

We're going to put that time into its own special box and it's just going to live there and we don't need to revisit it because.

Times rio is like remember the Google Home.

I'm Michael about.

What are some things that you guys, I know, despite you know, navigating this depression closet, Mandy, Jessica, all of us just trying to figure it out, Like, what are some things that you've been able to find joy in despite even if their little pockets of joy, pockets of reprieve, things that have reminded you about who you are.

I was literally thinking about this on the way to daycare drop off this morning, was how can I incorporate some joy because one of the lies that depression tells me is that I'm not allowed to like take to do something fun or frivolous, while there's so much to do and while I have so much to fix in myself that I can't do those things until I'm like in a better place.

And so this morning I was actively thinking against that, and I was like, what is something I can do that would spark a little bit of joy that doesn't involve the crutch of my kids, Because the problem with my children is there's such little joy nuggets that if I'm around them and like we can go to Legoland, I can take them to a trampoline park, I can go to the library, like I can find little activities that can but we're they're having We're there joyful, and then that makes me feel joyful.

Does that make sense?

But are you finding true joy or are you just finding joy through them?

Because again, you're a great mom.

No, that's what I'm saying.

So that's I've been.

It's not your true joy.

Not my true joy.

And when I'm like really, I'm in like a really heightened depressive state, and my husband will take the kids off somewhere to give me some space, then I'm like, wait, I need my oxygen back, like I need I don't like it, so I don't really have a good answer.

I think where I think, I don't know what brings joy.

You definitely need to find that.

But I also it makes me think, like my mom definitely undiagnosed, untreated, I would say, anxiety and depression.

And so my run now that my parents they've been divorced, but my parents divorced after thirty five years of marriage, and like my brother and myself and now the grandkids are her entire world.

And that's a pressure too that I think is very dangerous because she finds her joy in us, which is and he doesn't live year but I do.

So then who gets the guilt and the smothering the pressure of life?

I don't want.

I'm so aware of that.

Yeah, so I'm thinking of like your future life when the boys are you know, late high school, early college, heaven forbid they get married.

Then it's like, if that's your oxygen.

I am not going to be that mom, hail to the now.

Well, but you probably have to work on that now.

Right, there's things, you know, there's this expression there's this symptom of depression, or maybe it's not a symptom of depression, but it often comes in line with depression called on Hondonia and Hondonia, which is the the challenge of like, you don't feel things, like you don't feel the joy or the positivity.

Things that once brought you joy, You're not deriving pleasure from them.

So I found so much joy and comfort in gardening this summer.

And I saw that on social media US she can hit tomatoes.

Wasn't there a watermelon?

Am I making that up?

One singular watermelon?

Yes?

And cute and it tastes great.

But we grew it there.

The kids ate it in solidarity.

I did find a lot of joy from gardening, but then that the depression, I just it started to fade.

I don't feel it quite as much.

And cooking and baking, you know, I haven't been cooking at all.

And one thing, you know that there is that expression I've been thinking about too, which is to feel different, you have to act different.

Sometimes the action is first and then the feelings follow.

And one thing I did I went to the grocery store this weekend and I got I made.

I decided to do like a big Sunday roast like the brit and the Brits do it.

And I spent like three hours in the kitchen cooking and making a meal and just for the pl and I was feeling.

I felt, I felt a little something, and.

Keep doing it gas or something where you can like learn a new skill or be in community with other people who were like my class.

Yeah, I just got a present for a friend of mine.

Again, like you know, we have what we need, and so I was like, let's do an experience.

And so I got us a pasta making class.

And so we're going to do like the Italian feast pasta making with like ravioli and Alfredo's and all the sauces and then you like actually sit and eat what you've cooked.

And it's a little local, veteran woman owned business in Durham, North Carolina.

And I'm so excited because I think it'll be so fun and we're learning a skill that, you know, if we wanted to make pasta at home later hopefully we'll learn it well enough to do that.

But maybe something like that.

Doing that with a friend, Yes, with two friends.

One it was one birthday present and then we it's kind of our little foodie group.

So it's going to be the three of us next month.

Doing an activity with friends is something that I have withdrawn from, like in the depression, like I pulled back, but I actually crave it, Like I haven't had like a dinner or drinks with girlfriends in ages.

So combine it.

Maybe you can do if you want to experience the joy of cooking, could you invite someone over for dinner, Like, Hey, next Sunday, I'm going to make something and let's eat it and then tell your husband to take the kids.

Yeah, like a little dinner club like tiny, Like doesn't need to be this big thing because then it becomes exhausting.

It's already exhausting just thinking about it.

But I think going out to dinner and just having a nice I would like to just have a really nice cocktail with a friend with no kids around.

It's hard to if it's.

Hard for scheduling, could you do it during the day.

I'm like, maybe a lunch date with a friend if that's easier, because I know we're like scheduling at night.

Especially midweek.

I know because these two friends that I'm doing the cooking class with they are married but don't have kids by choice, and the rule is you always have to invite me.

But most of the time I'm not going to be able to come.

So even last night the text came through of like, hey, we're meeting you know here at this time, let us know if you can make it.

And it's just it's so hard because then you have the guilt of like, uh, the midweek is chaos and we just came back from to school from track out and then to leave the kids with you know, it's just I don't know, but yeah, it make it happen.

I had some weird combination of like, I have friends who don't have kids, but they're they're in the city, and so that's the challenge.

But also I'm also I'm like one of the only work from home moms in my mom group.

They're all busy and they work and they commute, and so sometimes I'm just like I would love to do like a midday thing, but it's not a lot of yeah, people have, but there can be time.

My depression was really bad this weekend, and my my dear friends, she has a big important job, she has to go into the city.

So there's whenever we get together, it's like rare.

It's like once a month, which is actually decent.

That's pretty good.

Actually, I would.

Say yeah, honestly, and she we really both put in the effort and I I canceled plan.

She had invited me over, and I just I made it.

I said I was sick, but it's not that bad all the time.

But it was a bummer that in that I was just so and you know, and I could have probably told her how I was feeling and she would have said, we'll come over anyway, But depression is a liar, and it just told me I was too toxic and too too negative to be around anybody in that in that time.

Meanwhile, I did send my son over because her son and my son are best friends.

So now there you go.

You had a good time.

But that is definitely something I could be adding back into my life.

What brings you all joy?

Yeah, for me, it's always try so Raina.

When you were saying like, how are you finding like the micro joy, I'm not going to say that I don't find joy in the small doses because I try to be really intentional about that and like practice gratitude and you know, mindfully say like here are five things today that I'm grateful for.

Even if I woke up in a mood or if my body's hurting or whatever it might be.

But I really love looking forward to a vacation.

And so again, because we have four sets of grandparents, we are able to travel with the children and without them.

And so like next month, Brandon and I are going to Saint Lucia.

It was supposed to be my fortieth birthday trip from the spring, but because Brandon tores Achilles, we had to push it.

And so I've been waiting for this trip for like months and months, and then I looked up and I was like, oh my gosh, it's next month.

Like I'm so happy to get at a couple of nights away where I don't have to do anything.

I don't have to lift a finger, I don't have to make a bed, I don't have to empty the dishwasher every morning at seven am.

I don't need to, you know, run the vacuum cleaner after every meal because the kids don't know how to eat over their dang plates, like.

So deciding what to eat everything so many times another meal, I have to.

Decide it's either that or My son is like he's like literally addicted to goldfish at this point, Like he like will have a full on hantrum breakdown if I deny him goldfish and I'm like, great, he's an addict, Okay, here we are.

You're made to be addicting, I know, and he literally is and it so I'm so excited for you.

I haven't had a vacation.

My husband and I took a vacation in August together.

It was a marriage resuscitation week because girl we was on life support and it was so needed.

But in order to accomplish that, I had to fly my children to Saint Louis, fly back the same day, and then do it again two weeks later.

And it was so expensive.

And but when we were in when we were in, yes, but we can't recreate it easily.

But when we're in a family compound, I look forward to that day.

What if I mean, even aside from the family compound, like we have a friend, they will fly the mom in.

They're in North Carolina, they fly the mom in from Tennessee, so they cover her flight or do it with points or miles or however they can get it done.

But that way, you're not taking I mean, who wants to be at an airport twice in one day to like drop your kids off and then you know, is there anything that you could do like that, like if you flew your brother in or your sister in and then they stay with you.

Because I also find that the kids do better if they're in their beds, they have their toys, they have their environment.

And then also we typically travel during the week so that the kids are in school when possible, So then that way it kind of alleviates some of the burden on the grandparents because being with the kids kind of twenty four to seven is a lot.

But if they're going to school for a big chunk of the day, then as long as they get them out on time, do their lunches, and then they can do the nighttime routine.

But they get a nice, you know, seven eight hour break during the day.

I think it really helps them because again, of course our parents are My parents are mid sixties, late mid and late sixties, so giving them a little bit of a break during the day really helps them.

But that's kind of how we've been able to travel and make it work and have people come stay with us and our kids.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Unfortunately, it hasn't been able to work out as someone's either got a health issue or they have a partner, like there's there's just complicating factors.

So them coming here, it's always it's rarely like an easy an easy thing, and like it's more comfortable for them to be in their space and like, fortunately my boys have a really good time when they're like at my mom's.

But then to justify it, you do have to make it a long trip.

And so it's like two weeks and that that's bored us too much.

For me, I had to miss them, miss them babies.

But it's good to miss them.

It's good to get addicting.

You're like when you want to be away from them, and then when you're away for them too long, you like start to itch.

Like healthy because usually at the end of our vacations we're like, oh, we're ready to see the kids, and then within you know, three hours of being with them, were like, yeah, I'm going to be back on vacation.

But I think it's healthy to miss them too.

It was worth it for us though, for the for us, for our relationship, it was it was so needed to look at some things we had been neglecting.

Yeah, that's so good.

Yeah.

We did a mini trip with the kids.

But we haven't done like my family.

We haven't met my partner.

We haven't really done as much like solo traveling.

We went to a wedding once that was like a two night thing, which was fun.

That's when my dad was alive, my dad life before my dad was here, life after right, Uh, it was easier and it's like just a it was a nice I feel like two days, a nice weekend away.

It's like a nice recharge for me.

The things that have found brought me joy.

I've been dancing again.

I used to be like a really big dancer, like in college.

I danced before the babies.

Actually, the reason why I have my son is because I went to a heels dance class and after the he'll dance class, I was like, let me try these moves.

Oops, I don't know advertising they were going for.

Beware, I've found I haven't been able to get to a dance class, but just turning on music.

Like the other day, I just had a dance party in the living room and my kids were looking at me like I was crazy, But then they started dancing with me, like I was still dancing by myself.

But it was just fun to kind of just like get moving.

I think for me, movement has brought me joy.

I used to be a really big mover, Like I used to run, I used to do so much, and I just feel like that movement part of me hasn't been prioritized because it's always like I don't want to go on a walk with the kids all the time, right, But like, at the same time, bring them out the house or getting them to the park or you know, pushing the stroller around the lake is good for them.

So I think that I can kind of get them, you know, kill two birds with one stone.

But at the same time, it's not the same you're It's like it's not the same walk.

So I've been trying to like maybe the next step is after work or before I go home, take a dance class in the city or something like that, Like that might be a way to alleviate or to bring more joy.

Cooking has been a big one for me, And I was going to talk about the act of like mirror neurons.

Maybe I've heard of the idea of mirror neurons of like when you see someone doing something that you desire, you can kind of have that feeling yourself it's kind of how social media works.

Like it's like the dopamine hit that you get when you see someone like going on a trip, Like why don't we watch these shows because we kind of sickly desire that life?

In some way, I've been doing that with cooking videos.

I'll wasch chefs like just cooking, and it brings me this joy where I feel like I'm the chef cooking myself.

So I don't know, maybe that could be a way of tricking my body into more joy, but it's been inspiring to me to just like watch these videos and in my head I'll try to recreate it, like I make everything a scene.

My friend told me I have a friend who she should be clinically depressed by just her life, right, but she gave me this hint.

She was just like, I'm delusional.

I just tell my self delusional shit.

That's probably not true, but just the act of like saying it out loud, like I'm living a grand, fabulous life.

I have a huge kitchen, I'm making all these things.

It might sound like a creative, fanciful thinking, but for her, it's just like faking the joy a bit, or speaking the joy into things.

That might see mundane sense.

Even the commute, well, the commute into work is so boring.

But what I like to do is all people watch and I'll write it down what I see, or like I'll overhear conversations and I'll just write it down and I'll use it as a creative prompt for my writing.

I'm like, all right, I heard this person gossiping about this, Like there was this one lady who was talking about talking to her nanny about how her barbecue chicken better be done when she's home.

And I'm like, oh, that could be a cute.

Like I start to a movie, like I'll just write what all my stuff as inspiration, I try to find the joy around me when I can't find the joy in me.

Sometimes be a good quote.

That is a good quote.

But you know they say that your brain doesn't actually know the difference between like reality, like truth and lies.

So like you do need to lie to yourself.

You do need to say.

I believe in a lot of negative shit.

That's depression.

Yeah, I just choose to believe.

You need to change that and exactly and and lie to yourself and we do a lot of that.

Yeah, it's like.

This but it creates like a bullet proof screen in front of me people's positivity.

It just can't.

It's hard to get it in.

Like it's like trying to get to the center and.

You know, leave everybody else's positivity.

But just like lie to yourself positively, like start start talking to yourself about is the salulu.

Yeah, like you're any family compound that's going to be incredible and like the garden in the middle that everybody's going to be participating in and you're going to completely live off of the land and grow your watermelons.

You know.

I'm going to a mood board, Mandy.

Can you do like a mood board that you have in your office space where you're like starting to plant it out, like you know, put a little garden on the side on one side.

Yeah, psychologist, I don't know all this will work.

But visualize it.

No, it certainly can't hurt.

I think we should set some goals before we because I think we should do this call again, maybe not another six months, but sooner.

And well, let's not put any pressure on it because y'all know we Mom, she's you know too much.

But I don't want to be committing.

But I think if I was going to set a goal, my goal would be don't be depressed anymore.

But that's not realistic.

Okay, that's too much pressure.

My goal is to do a thing that find my find something that brings me joy, that can get through the bulletproof depression glass and and can bring me some joy.

And I think your cooking class idea might be a good one.

But even if it's like a cocktail with a friend or just baking something ridiculously intricate because I like take off.

I always wanted to I make like a character cake for my kids birthdays, but I just I could just do one for the heck of it.

Oh my god, they would love it.

Yeah, you know that, right, shred the carrots, Mandy, shred the carrots.

Yeah, no, this is for you.

It's not Remember a weekly joy.

Daily sounds like too much, isn't that sad?

Daily joy is too much?

Maybe once a week, but try to find my joy activity.

I was going to say something X rated, but I think we have I'll tell it to you after after that.

Oh, now I want to know what please does is it?

Does it involve the heels?

It could evolve here?

Pregnant you might get a dopamine fix in another way, maybe a self dopamine fix, you know, put that into your masturbate more.

Get yes, get some toys.

You know what's funny.

I never told anyone this.

So if you're listening to this and you listen to my podcast, this is gonna sound so weird.

Guys to advertise that go, I used to like if I had a bad day at work, because before when I used to like early in the podcast days, I used to only record afterwork, which is like seven eight.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know how I got people to record with me seven and eight o'clock.

Anyway, that was a different time.

I used to like sometimes masturbate before interview, just to get like a little like I'm thebombed diggity dot com.

Before it sounds healthy, it sounds cocaine.

Oh my gosh, I.

Mean that was my bump.

That was my little like little like pocket a vibrator, And I'd like, all right, now.

You're really good to go.

Oh my gosh, that's kind of jealous that you could just like turn it on like that.

I need to buy.

I love that people are like I do a five minute Superman stance before and you're like, I'm going to take a different the.

Good now I'm ready.

That's I mean, maybe like finally little like fake a fake cocaine moment for you that can.

Oh, you're right, well, I do have a box of gummies that's just for mommy, obviously, and I have found that to be like if I'm really struggling things already, I'll take a little a little gummy.

But those make my heart palpitate so much I can't do it anymore.

I've never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever ever gonna try edibles again.

Experience.

Yeah, not great for me either, Not great for.

I had a twenty four hour I can't get out of my mind experience because I had an event and someone gets gave me a cake pop and they told me to eat it in nipples.

It was not nipples and nibbles.

Like a sponsor.

It was a sponsor and like she she provided like the people at my event, like you know edible like it was like cookies and cake pops.

I didn't know that meant you take a little portion of the cake pop.

I ate the whole.

Weird thing to expect someone to portion out like how nibbles, slice a.

Cake, nibbled.

I ate it, and.

I ate it really slowly.

Just put it in your pocket, just get a little nibble everything.

I didn't know that, and I'm just like, have that.

Life is not meant for me.

It scared me.

I said never again.

I felt like, I'm like, is this how crackheads become crackheads?

And they're trying to convince people they're normal.

Like in my mind, I was like, this is not prepared, No, no, no.

You have to do a reputable, reputable, you know, brand that's not a homegrown no no, yes, and food that people bake with butter, none of that.

Like we need like very well portioned, like and you're right to your point, like you have to be you should be careful and like it's definitely not It took me a while to find something that actually could take the edge off a little bit.

But now that I've found it, and uh, it's like a Filipina owned woman, she's Filipina, she makes them herself.

They're so delicious.

And then there's some that don't have THHD, they just have CBD, and there's some that have a combination of both.

And it's like you can like you have to know how many milligrams you can take or what is it?

Mcg's what does that stand for?

Yeah, micrograms, the dosing and all that.

Anyway, have you.

Ever done the drinks?

I have not tried to drink yet.

I yeah, no, I haven't.

I'm gonna have to get my brother to send you.

He like partners with this company.

It's a friend of his owns the company and he has multiple CBD type stores and dispensaries and stuff.

And it's I don't know if it's it's got THHC, but it's a that's like happy and so it's meant to be a social drink and it's called nine Dot.

I'll send you the link and people love it.

Again, it's not my thing because I just don't like that feeling.

But it's supposed to like make you just super giddy and happy and like you know, not like femo out.

Yeah, it's that.

The whole conversation is like a good one to have.

Like again, you know where we can do it more in depth because I have I don't want to become reliant on anything, and I don't want to like mask, I'd rather I want to work on healings, I can like mask, not in a massive fix heel.

So I'm not ressed, right, moved like actually moved through it rather than trying to numb through it like during like really acute moments if I can't sleep or if it's like really really intense a gummy once a week or once every other week whenever, you know.

But yeah, I don't want to be because I'm so like the depression is like more rampant now.

I'm just a little weary of like adding something.

Yeah, I want to like see my therapist and and you know, I'm also in a weight loss program.

I'm getting a sea pop machine because girls got sleep apnea, Like oh yeah, all these.

Because you tell you alls apart, that's just the reality.

What's that?

Yeah?

I was gonna say, Mandy, can I tell you something?

And it is you are doing it like you give yourself a hug, like you know, like you so much hard.

Mama is doing everything, elkit, babe, every single one I'm trying.

That's so like courageous of you, and that's so commendable and like it's it's going to work out for you, Like this is you know how I know?

I don't I don't know when I don't like to like say cliche things, but like you know, there's that say like this too shell pass And I think because you are doing the work for it to pass, like it's going there is going to be light at the end of the tunnel.

So I'm giving you a virtual hug because I just want to I can hug you, give you a hug, and someone listening in right now, who may be feeling like you, may be may be able to, like, you know, to understand what one of us is going through as well, Like this is the work.

Just talking about it is the biggest thing, and so many people aren't talking about it.

So just by allowing us to have this conversation today, you're not only helping yourself, but you're helping you know, whoever's listening to this as well.

Yeah, you're helping people not feel alone and what they're battling with, which is so important, especially when things in today's world feel so isolating.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's the biggest And they say motherhood is like the biggest the biggest party that you feel the most alone at, right.

Well, it's hard to go along with you, ladies, and thank you for your fundability to and Jessica, and you know, whether it's like a chronic like physical pain.

I mean, that is so real.

And when it's messing anything that's messing with your sleep, girl, like we know it all can mess with your sleep.

And then everything about a twenty mattress because I was like, I got to do something.

I'm already doing all the other things, all the physical therapy and all the injections, all the I'm like, all right, let's change the mattress.

But yeah, I hope it works, just anything.

And I send that love right back to you all too, Rena.

Whatever you decide about that damn job in this commute, in that five days a week, I'll be thinking about you.

But I hope you are some more dancing.

Yeah yeah, maybe that can ease it.

But I will not end up pregnant again.

Okay, guys, very my deepest depression.

Sometimes I think, could I have another baby and feel better?

Oh no, A liar, get you and I U d while you still can listen.

One of those, because I will say, although we say children shouldn't bring us joy, it shouldn't be the only thing that brings us joy.

I am so happy.

I have them, because imagine if you didn't.

I sometimes think about, like, I know that I use them for you know, that little joy spike that you need sometimes.

But if I didn't have them, damn, this ship would probably be even tougher.

Like I don't agree with that.

I don't agree with that, No, okay, but okay, I just say that.

If you didn't have them, you'd probably be very happy, as you'd be very well rested, your bank account would be I wouldn't have a black circles under my eyes that I literally cannot get rid of.

Yeah, but you know what, for the sake of society, we mothers still need to We still need people to want to be mothers, so that you know, you.

Can't go there, you can't go to the what if they weren't here?

I know, I know that's just you can't take that that Pandora's box has been open.

I'm happy that they're here because they they do provide me a at least for the life I'm in now, something to motivate me, even if I am using them, as you know, probably shouldn't always use them as joy crutches.

But I'm gonna take pole like you're giving, like there's there's that you know that the truth is when you give and you're you're doing something that's outside of yourself, Like it feels good to be the giver.

And as long as you're giving and receiving and it's reciprocal, then I don't think it's toxic.

And you you know, feel that humans and absorbed.

My son said something to me the other day.

Oh sorry, my son said something to me the other day, and I'm like, whoa, this is so weird.

So like I always say to him, I know my son, right, Like if I know that he's doing something he shouldn't, I be like, axel, I know my son.

And so I was telling him about how I really want to make this recipe and he was like, Mom, you're just gonna watch a YouTube video and how to do it.

Then he was like, I know, my mom got you.

That's so cute.

And so just those moments they just make you know, they make it worth it.

Wait, so I have my goal?

Did y'all want to set a little personal goal before we reconvene in the future.

I don't know that I have anything, not that I don't have goals, but I feel like my goals are they're more work related, you know, which is like not fun, and I don't feel like that's the vibe of our conversation.

So I'm going to keep mind to myself today.

What about the I When does that get here?

Oh?

I've been sleeping on it for maybe a month a month and a half now, and I do notice a difference, but it's hard to truly feel a difference when you're just like in so much pain.

But I literally had an epidural shot in my spine this morning, so hopefully steroid not a block, but hopefully it'll just give me the relief that I'm looking for.

The last injections that I got did little to nothing, So that was four hundred and eighty three dollars almost down the drain.

Today will be the three hundred and sixty three dollars if those do anything, and then from there we'll have to wait and see.

But yeah, hopefully the next time we have this conversation, I will be feeling more like myself and feeling more rested and less in pain.

That is for sure the ultimate goal.

I'm praying for that for you so wonderful vacation.

Hoping that well, yes, yes, my goal would be.

I think it's also like returning to little moments that define raina before kids, so like getting those weekly or you know, monthly pedicures, dancing again.

I booked a style consult with this like professional styleist really today just because I feel like visually I'm not showing up how I want to show up as much anymore, and I'm just like I just need to, Like, I think the bigger goal is spend money on the things that bring you joy, because I can be a cheap joy finder where there are some things you just need to spend money on life.

You really want to work with a stylist, just pay the money right now, Like, don't hold on to the money just because you're trying to always save safe safe, I know, you know, my financial girl tell me I need to say to a budget I have and I.

Value based spending.

So I think that's the big thing for me, is like don't be afraid to spend the money to make life happier, easier, more joyful.

Like some days I'm like, we get in takeout today because that's it might cost more for budget grotriy wise, but it just makes sense for our peace of mind as a family.

Right, And they're not gonna eat it anyway, So why am I sleeving over a meal that they're not eating.

My husband and I get take out the kids.

They're not going to eat it.

And strap eat some fruit.

Yeah.

Oh, I can't wait to see how you show up on the next call right now in your new style.

We'll see, we'll see.

I didn't I said I booked it.

I didn't say I booked her.

I booked the console.

But it's not it's not the actual session.

Speak for yourself.

This is my BJS.

No, this is Cole's versus plaid little I'm from finest now.

But to that point, yeah, spending some time investing in yourself and the way you look and present it matters, you know, even if you got nowhere to go.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Thank y'all so much for letting me come out of my depression closet and surprise you with that and.

Hopefully, but we have a quart to action for the listeners, Mandy, do you have a quo to action they chime in or what they are doing, maybe that can be the call to action for this episode, Like, moms, what are you doing to you know?

What's your goal?

What's your joy goal for this month or what's your joy goal for the end of the year.

I love that, Or what's your struggle if you just want to share, like you, what's your what is it that you're going through that maybe you don't feel like you can really acknowledge because you're doing doing doing for the kids and for the family.

And just like Raina you opening up about grieving your father's passing and Jessica your chronic pain and my depression.

Like we all, everyone's got something that we are, like an inner life that's not always the most positive, but maybe saying it out loud, we can be that safe space for y'all.

And of course ba fam, you can always reach out to me Brand Ambition Podcast at gmail dot com.

But if you're watching on YouTube, you can leave a comment, put your business on the internet.

Why not everyone else does it?

Or DMV at Brand Ambition Podcast on I T And where can they find y'all?

Sugar Daddy Podcast I think on it right.

Yep, Matt the Sugar Daddy Podcast.

And we did just get our blue check, So dismiss any of the other ones please, they're not real.

Verify you can find me Dreams and drive.

But my personal is rain r ai N shine, s h I N E, l U V love.

It's funny because that has been This has been a model my entire life.

You always have rain in life, good times, you always have bad times, rain right, good time, shine and love, like think of those things.

Those are three constants in our life.

So we accept that we're all going to be going through cycles of life and it just makes this journey a little bit better.

I'm just gonna just accept that we're grumpy monkey and that's okay.

I'm gonna find that book.

Yes, thank you, it's so good.

It's I love it all right, y'all be well, ba fam until next time, take care bye, okay v a fam.

Thank you so much for listening to this week's show.

I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney, our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for idea to launch productions.

I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together.

It is not a one person project, as much as I have tried to make it so these past ten years.

I need help y'all, and thank goodness, I've been able to put this team around me to support me on this journey and to y'all bea fam.

I love you so, so, so so much.

Please rate, review, subscribe, make sure you sign up to the newsletter to get all the latest updates on upcoming episodes, our ten year anniversary celebrations to come, and until next time.

Talk to you soonba guy, hey, ba fam.

Let's be real for a second, and y'all know I keep it a book.

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