This is my honest opinion.

Bro.

When I'm not doing things in our relationship that I think I'm supposed to do, I feel like less of a man.

Really, do I make you feel like that?

Or I just feel like that on your.

Own, Na, you don't make me feel like that's me?

Like it's just me.

And we talk about balancing power dynamics.

If you're not the kind of girl that cares to balance certain things, you're okay just being a traditional girl being taken care of.

And you give me that dead Ass.

It all started with real talk, unfiltered, honest and straight from the heart.

Since then, we've gone on to become Webby Award winning podcasters in New York Times bestselling authors.

Dead Ass was more than a podcast for us.

It was about our growth, a place where we could be vulnerable, be.

Wrong, of course, but most apportantly be us.

But as we know, life keeps evolving and so do we and through it all, one thing has never changed.

This is.

Because we got a lot to talk about.

Boom storytime, I'm gonna take y'all back based on the question you asked.

I know I've told this story before, where I'm going to like explain it.

Yeah, And here's the question, tell us about when power dynamics got the best of you and your.

Relationship, right, which I can't answer that question because power dynamics have never really gotten the best of either one of us.

That's why we both still here.

Has a lot to do with it.

Yeah, But I remember in two thousand and nine when I first got cut and I moved back.

We both moved back to New York, and I was not able to provide the same exact way that I was before.

Right, So I was in the NFL.

Then I get cut, and now I still have my NFL severance paced so I'm still able to pay the rent.

But it was like a struggle, right, and then you ended up having to go back to work, not because you wanted to, but because you had to in the moment, which to me was a not to my ego.

And there was a moment where I always tell a story where I went in the bathroom, turned the shower on.

I'm sitting on the toilet, fully clothed, and I'm like crying because I'm just like like this cannot be like my life right now.

And I remember, and I won't say it got the best of me because it wasn't ever too far.

But I remember projecting a lot of the issues I had because I felt like I was less less of a man on you and saying that a man.

Is supposed to do these things.

Like the first five years of our relationship, I always talking about how bad it was in marriage because I didn't know how to be a husband.

So what I did was just take all of the things that I thought a husband was supposed to do and try to do them to the best of my ability.

And I was good at doing those things to the best of my ability.

But then I created a standard for you as a wife while I was like, well, I'm doing these and you should be doing these all the time.

And the only way I felt like I could control or keep my sanity was by not having you feel like you were in my position like you with the provider, you know what I'm saying.

And I felt like there was I was like, damn, I wonder how she's looking at me?

And only time told me that you were never looking at me any different.

But it was playing on my psyche that I was just like, how is she looking at me that I'm not able to provide her with the lifestyle you and I talked about having from eighteen, right, So I won't say it got the best of me, but that was definitely going through my mind a lot, which.

Is funny because when I think back to that time and even to now where we stand with everything, I was always a team player, Like I'm like, hey, whoever is better equipped in that moment, whoever is on the up, Like, because we're a team, it doesn't really matter.

So I think ultimately, for me.

It does matter for you for men.

For men, I get it.

It's it's nothing that women have done wrong.

It's just the way we've been conditioned and programmed.

Like if you a man, then this is what you're doing.

And that's what I was going through, And it wasn't anything you ever did, which is why I don't mind telling the story.

It was just the way I was programmed, right, And I think the only reason why we worked is because while I was going through all of these things, you were never doubling down and saying you're not.

Because I was raised to be an independent woman who contributed, So for me it was like, all right, well I'm doing my part now too, because I was never going into it expecting to benefits of being a pampered woman at home.

I was always like, Yo, what we gotta do to get to where we gotta go?

And that is the power dynamic that a lot of people are dealing with today.

You're gonna discuss that, all right, So power my throat?

You want me clear your throat?

That was too easy.

I don't know why then?

What does she expect me to to not say anything?

Come on, man, I know it ain't dead ass podcasts.

Come on, I'm still gonna be.

You know what I'm saying?

Oh God?

And it's always after it leaves my nothing.

She can't say nothing.

I can't say nothing with y'all.

Bet y'all between trible.

I'll just be in trouble all the time.

I'm not as bad as you can get it from y'all.

Triple worse than me, trible, way worse to me.

It is not the good thing, though, It's true.

Was catching on to the pause moments because we had a moment up stairs with me here and in the kitchen, and she was like, that was a pause.

I just missed it.

One of these days you'll get the pause always too late, slightly slightly behind.

You just like that was too long and not understanding it was.

Yeah, my mind is just not as deep in the gutter as unique.

It's a problem, y'all.

Are y'all are.

We're bringing you down to the dark power.

We're talking power.

Since we're talking power, I feel like this song is just appropriate.

Put the nostalgia of it all, to be honest, because it was such an epic portion of life.

Remember what they used to say right before.

Goodhead, they say, this is a rich Yeah, I just come from the.

Right.

I gotta make it.

This is where it goes down.

Yeah, I just happen up for legal, legal baby.

I never took a short.

Just because previously on Power, You're right, and it was it was a different cast made every different times.

That was a good time.

That was the time.

That was what twenty sixteen, right was when it started.

Twenty sixteen in twenty twenty was when Power was at its prime.

Bro.

I remember us being at a wedding in Saint Martin.

It was justin Nashy's wedding and we it was literally their wedding weekend, and I think they had had their like welcome dinner or something like that, and everybody was like Yo, we're about to go.

Watch we jail broke a fire steak in Martins to get powered, bro.

To get power all of us were you at that time?

No, it was just appointment TV.

Like I was like, shout out to.

Courtney camp Man and fifty and Omari Harwick and the Tory.

Yeah, they really created something that was appointment TV.

It was the time we had something that was appointment TV like that.

Scan.

Yeah, Scandal.

Scan And we watched Scandal once it was already out so we were able to binge watch that.

That was like the best time in life.

Scandal was the one that introduced me the you gotta watch it live nomber.

It was like the last ninety seconds, you don't want to miss that.

Ship happened every week, like Yo, nobody moves on.

The last and the last scene of Scandal was always.

The cliffhangers were insanity.

They were so good.

Shout out to the team and that was a good one.

I just want a Tory to speaking to which I hit her up.

Just saw her at an event recently.

We were sitting at the same table super Sweet girl.

All right, y'all, let's take a break and we will be back with Op or no Op, and we're back for Devall's favorite part of the show, Op or no Op.

What we got going on in the Wow Wow West?

That is in the culture the Internet.

The Internet.

The Internet entertains me a lot.

And recently I was watching some clips from a podcast called Council Culture with Nick Cannon.

Have you seen it before?

No?

We sent up there with his hair rap like that's how he looks every time.

You look so fucking bored.

But uh.

He had Ian levanzan on and she was saying that black men have been devalued to only what they can provide, Like people are always looking at black man for what they can do, and so black men tend to value themselves only for what they can do.

She said, nobody's teaching black men how to be with themselves or how to be with their hearts.

And she said one of the greatest kryptonites to a man is to feel inadequate, and that's what happens when you value a man only for what they can do, what they can buy.

So abernoah, I agree, yeah, I.

And I know she's speaking on behalf of black men, which I appreciate because it's coming from a woman.

Sometimes it's hard.

It's easier to digest.

Things when it's coming from someone who is not talking about themselves, you know.

But I do definitely feel like that when when we were talking about the beginning of the podcast and I said, I felt like that it had nothing to do with you.

It's because I had been programmed up until that point that if you don't make money and you can't provide this, if you can't get your kids this, then what really are you doing as a man?

Right?

Was that from your families or deb with your society?

Like from the beginning of Time for Black.

Men, a collection of everything.

My dad definitely made that clear to me, Like, dude, you ask a woman to be your wife, is your your job and your obligation to make sure that you provide for her in the way that she requires.

You asked her to be your wife.

You didn't have to ask her.

So since you asked her, that's your responsibility.

That was my dad, you know what I'm saying.

And then when you listen to rap music and you watching TV, the only people that ever get respect are the men with money.

There's nothing that I ever watched in my life that the person who didn't have the most respect or fear was the person who did have money.

That person always had money.

So it was just like ingrained in me, like if I get money, then I get power.

Get power, you get respect, you get the ladies, you get That's what I was ingrained in my mind.

Money, power, respect, that's the key to you know what I'm saying.

That's so I agree with her, And then we're at the point now where culturally that's all they see men for.

Yeah, I would be all black men, Do you have any ops before we agree?

I don't know if that's oper or no op, but I agree.

Yeah.

I mean I see what she's saying from like a pop culture perspective.

I would agree with her from that perspective.

I really got an opinion on it.

I also agree though, but you see how the men can't really talk on it.

This has just been who we've been and part and the part of this thing is that we can't even.

Talk on it.

It makes us feel uncomfortable because if you, if you as a man, say I'm worth on value more than what I make, then you feel kind of soft because it's like that's because he don't.

Make no money.

That's what men go through, like, these are.

Things and conversations that women don't go through our privy to that men do.

That to each other.

Do you feel like women, particularly black women because we're speaking about black men, although I know that there are you know, couples of relationships that are not necessarily black men and women together or triple maybe you can speak to this just being in a relationship.

Do you feel like you've ever been made just by.

The other.

I guess the other sex or you're within our relationship.

Have I ever made you feel like no value was brought down to just what you can provide?

Because for me, okay.

It wasn't any woman.

It was just like, do you know who told you about manhood?

Was it a woman who came to you said you not a man if you don't do this, or or was it just like culturally, it just felt like this is what it was.

I think it's culturally and also what I saw.

I like, I watched my dad as a man, as a provider, so I kind of got my my my perspective from that.

That's what I said, from maybe like a pop culture perspective.

I can't talk to what she's thinking because I never felt like it's my manhood was based on what I could provide.

Now, I know that's a huge part of it, right, and I know that women will view men that way based on what they provide.

But I never thought like for me personally, like my wife never made me felt like I'm only good for what I could provide for her.

You know what I'm saying.

It's a partnership.

So I guess my question was I don't think is that question correctly.

I think it was more like seeing you for your heart, because she did say in the comment seeing someone for their heart or their mind or who they are.

I'll bring this up not to beat the dead horse of that essence interview, however, you were speaking from your heart in that moment.

You had a moment where you just felt like I can't hold this in anymore and I need to speak.

And some people thought you were cutting me off.

Some people said you didn't allow me to finish my thoughts.

But the reason why it was black women.

Yes, a lot of the comments are from black women that I didn't allow you, You didn't allow me the latitude to finish my thought where for me, being a black woman who loves a black man, I want to hear what you have to say.

And I think far too often we don't a provide spaces for our men to feel comfortable to express what they feel.

But also we're ready to jump in or deflect or negate or police or judge what you have to say.

So my choice with my husband is to allow him the space and the latitude to express how he feels without me cutting him off.

And in that moment, I didn't feel like you were cutting off.

I felt like the purpose of allowing you to speak was so that you can finish your thought and say how you genuinely felt in the moment that you were vulnerable.

You know, that's a good point.

I will say this though that example, especially even though it was a small example of the women on TikTok who had so much negative things to say, is that men's voices often aren't heard right, you know what I'm saying, Like when a man is truly like just being vulnerable, Like I had a moment and I got attacked for it.

And this is why men say they can't be vulnerable because the minute I had a moment, it was he did.

That because of his wife.

It's like, this wasn't even about my wife.

It wasn't you were going through something.

But I will also say this TikTok is made up of what are they gen zers?

This majority thirteen to twenty three year olds.

There were over ten thousand comments on Instagram and other platforms with older women who are more mature, who also have more insight to life, who understood what was happening.

So I'm not going to say all black women because of the small demographic that was on TikTok did that, And that's I think it's important for people to understand.

You may see something on one platform, you can't say all right, that's one place.

One platform platform has a different demographic of women that are also black women.

Now I would supported heavily, heavily on Instagram and on Facebook from those black women, but they were also older black women who probably have more life experience.

So I didn't take much.

Of it from the young women who said that.

But I mean that is an example that you know, those young women are also dating young men, and those young men are trying to express themselves.

That's what they're saying to.

Them, which is why we are where we are.

People Because you've always tell told our boys that it's okay to cry.

We want you to express how you feel, but only where.

When people you're around people you're trust.

Around people you could trust.

Not clearly, the internet is not people you could trust.

However, in that moment, within that interview and in that space, you feel comfortable to be able to do that.

Well, actually, I'm gonna be honest.

Me and Josh were talking about something right before that, and then she asked the question.

It evoked an emotion that came out, and that's why I was apologizing so much, because I thought I was messing up the interview.

I wasn't sharing to be vulnerable, to have a viral moment.

I just was losing it and I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

And then when we started talking through it and I was able to have my moment and just tell him how I feel, and you were so receptive, and the ladies was like, you know, sorry, if I take your time, I felt like, fine, I'm gonna tell you how I feel.

So because the women in that room made me feel comfortable, I kept going.

But initially when I broke down, that wasn't it was like fuck, Like oh my god, I messed up this interview, like I didn't want to do that.

That's why I kept apologizing.

But the women in that room definitely made me feel comfortable and them sharing it, I was like.

Cool, yeah, exactly.

What it was like.

You can't act everything, and to be honest, I was just tired of being something else.

But that shows you why men often don't don't share, because if I was a different type of person, I would have been like, I'm not doing nothing else ever again.

And think of all those young men who share with those young women on TikTok.

They're getting that response from those women will grow up and being their thirties and then be all like the men ain't men in Well, every time he tried to share with you what he was going through, you ridiculed him.

And now you're thirty, you're single.

You can't get what.

You want out of any man because you spent your twenties talking down to men who are trying to be vulnerable.

And that's what those women are going to have to deal with when they get to the thirties.

The women that are in our demographic right now, I rock with them because they saw what was happening and was just like, Yo, you good.

You know what I'm saying.

It was love from that demographic, the young girls.

Bro.

I'm praying for y'all, and I'm praying that I find my son's fine young ladies that learn how to empathize because also, like Yulanja said, no one is teaching our young men how to do that.

We are doing that here.

You know what I'm saying.

I hear Josh on the phone.

He talks to Toy.

He's very deliberate about how he speaks to his daughter because his daughter is going to be soon one's wife.

One day we talked about this.

He's like, I got to make sure that she understands the dynamic between a man and a woman, even at a young age.

I'm hoping that they find a young lady who was being fathered and mothered because shout out to Anika too, because she and her and Tory have a great relationship.

I'm hoping now sons find a woman that understands like that because we're raising boys who understand.

You know.

Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that.

I just want to acknowledge your feelings right now.

I would fight.

I love it.

My question to Trouble was more being in a sex same sex relationship.

Did you ever feel stifled or that you haven't been in situations where you weren't free to express yourself and be vulnerable, you know, much like what Ayanna expressed with black men, I think.

All the time.

I think that people have different life experience and your feelings aren't always welcome there.

And I think too, as I grow up, I have different expectations for people.

I have different boundaries for myself, and that's just not always welcome.

And so my.

Work in dating is knowing when to give grace and when to walk away.

You know what I'm saying, If my feelings are not welcome in a space, if I can't because I know that I'm going to take my time and I'm going to respect I'm gonna express respectfully and clearly, and necessarily, I'm going to say what needs to be said, and I'm going to do it in a way that is loving.

If I can't do that with the person I'm dating at this point, I got a gup.

How do y'all decide?

Though?

Like?

Do you decide like I'm the more masculine, so I'm required to do this or mine the more feminine or it's just like we have an understanding because we find out in hetero sexual relationships the heterosexual norms.

People expect you to follow that shit in relationships nowadays, and it's just like this shit is.

Like the fifties.

Yeah, is it the same or well.

I find myself often dating.

I find myself dating women who have never dated women before, and so sometimes expectation is they just have been socialized to date men.

So they they say, you are the more Yeah, I mean, and.

Naturally, I mean I was raised by my dad's I get a lot of you know, my ways for my dad and my knowledge and you know, life skills and stuff for my dad.

I'm comfortable doing things that maybe a man would do for a woman.

Yeah, But I don't think that there's really an expectation there.

I think that usually women are looking for especially if they're if they're like exploring their sexuality, they're exploring, you know, what it means to be a woman in the world.

A lot of times they're looking for more freedom when it comes to gender roles.

A lot of times women who are queer.

That makes sense.

Yeah, women who are queer.

They are not really fitting into the mold of what it takes, especially a woman that's going to date a woman like me, because I'm a little bit I'm more them presenting.

I don't present like a man.

I don't give off any indication that I would be more masculine in a relationship, and I.

Don't want to be treated that way.

But you see how even me asking that question shows you how much I don't know about that world, because it's like divide.

That was a stupid question.

No, that wasn't a stupid question because yeah, we're socialized to think that that is just the normal way to be.

And it is queer for a reason.

So like when we use the when I use the term queer, I'm not just talking about my sexuality, but I'm talking about a way of life.

So like queering the gender roles in a relationship, meaning that like I don't have to do one thing just because I have a more dominant personality or I may be a little bit more masculine, I don't have to be expected to do another thing.

And it doesn't mean that I don't require tenderness, you know what I'm saying.

Or queering what family means to me.

So if I don't have kids, my friends have kids, and I have other friends, and.

We can be a nuclear family if we choose to be.

You want to hear something crazy.

I've heard someone say before that we have a very queer relationship, and I was just like, what does that even mean?

It was just like, y'all live outside of gender roles.

Whoever picks has to do that, And I didn't understand it in the moment.

I was just kind of like, you know, I was just kind of like, I don't know how that is queer because I automatically assumed just queer just to make gay, But queer, based on what you said, really means living outside of the norms that whatever society has.

So when someone says we have a very queer relationship, it kind of to me makes sense how they could see that because I'm not the typical man and you're not the typical woman.

I'll cook and clean and you'll earn.

But however, I will say that one thing that I think whenever we talk about like gender roles, I always think to myself, like, you are a well rounded masculine man.

I think that if people are looking for what masculinity looks like, think you would be a good role model, because when you're committed to your family, you're dedicated to your.

Strength.

You know what I'm saying.

You are emotionally intelligent.

You're not afraid to express yourself, and you know how to do it with both strength and poise at the same time.

You know what I'm saying, you take care of what needs to be taken care of, but you also know how to express yourself when you need to be taken care of.

And so that is what a man should look like.

That's masculinity.

I mean, that is masculinity.

Yeah.

And when we try to fit ourselves into these boxes to say, well, most men don't do this, so that's what a man is, then we are discounting the fact that like the type of man.

You are is actually it does exist and had nothing to do with earning.

I noticed that too.

Exactly the type of man you are does exist, but people are discounting it because they think that this idea, this toxic idea of what a man is or what masculinity is, is what the norm is, when it's actually not.

Okay, I have a question, can we transition to yeah, because this right now is taking me right into the power dynamics because I really want to ask a question to the ladies, Like if a man says like, yo, I'm not going to be defined by that, but then doesn't have a way to earn income automatically, he's taken off of like ninety percent of women's list.

She's not a high earner.

So what I'm my question is how much of what you think about yourself matters when you have to live exist in a world where you're looking for a mate?

Were also what they think matters?

You understand what I'm saying, like a power dynamic may not work to me, but if I'm looking for a mate, if it matters to her, the fact that I don't care about the power dynamic could be a turnoff to her.

Like so many women say, if he don't got ambition, if he don't want to make a certain amount of money, that's not my guy.

A lot of men that that's all they hear.

How do we deal with that?

That's going to lead us into the opera?

No op and what actually inspire ed this episode which was a listener letter from the first episode of this season, and I'm gonna refresh.

Oh you refreshing what would come from what was the first one.

What was the first episode about?

What was the first what was the first listening lesson?

I'm gonna read refresh.

Oh you got it?

Okay?

Cool?

No, I wanted you to recite it for memory.

Actually that's what Which one was it?

You ain't gonna give a chance to We.

Don't know what we have for breakfast?

Okay.

So I was trying to be a man.

I was trying to the first.

Listener letter that was ambitious.

No, let me take care of you right now, black man.

Let me remind you.

Here's the letter.

Uh, she said, I'm a thirty year old medical professional married to a thirty four year old fitness professional.

I make six figures, but it definitely doesn't feel like it.

After Texas, boy, don't I know it?

And my husband makes less than fifty k year.

She says she was okay with it at the start, but after they're trying to buy a house, or they have a house.

Now they're trying to start having a baby.

Now she's worried.

She got a second job so they could furnish their house and renovate their home because she can't count on him to supply money because he does pay for all of the utilities and half of the mortgage with what he makes.

He's been in finished for ten plus years, and he's a gentle soul, she says.

So he works with middle aged adults, and he's dabbled a little bit into the online space, but he hasn't gotten many clients there, and she doesn't think he's grinding there in the first place.

And so she gets a little bit frustrated because she feels like he doesn't have a sense of urgency, especially when he's at home relaxing on video games, and when she's on her days off, she's trying to figure out how they can make more money to live more comfortably.

And that, she said, that made her realize.

Just he has no interest in getting more on online clients and grinding a little bit more.

I remember this, and he doesn't even she said.

He likes to take a lot of time off work.

See, and this is what I'm talking about.

We're putting stuff on people, but it's also like ourselves, right for example, she said all of this, she loves him, gentle soul stuff.

He just doesn't make enough money to make her feel protected and providing for She doesn't say he's less than a man but ultimately it's just like, that's what she's saying, Like a man would on their off times do this.

A man would, and they oft times do that, and a lot of times as men that we feel like that.

I think you feel like that if you are innately an ambitious man who wants to be that there's some men like ambition is something you can't teach people, right or if you want to be I remember hearing from someone that they felt like their their partner felt like that they as a woman, she needed to motivate him.

And when I hear that, it's just like, Okay, is it anybody's job to motivate somebody?

Should you want to be motivated by your partner?

Just to.

Just to do by yourself right exactly?

Your response D at that time was like, bro, get up the video games.

That that was your response.

It's like, yes, if you can't, if you can't teach the ambition to a man, and so you are a woman in the relationship, that in itself can be a turn off altogether because you know, you're not even finding a way to be motivated by me and our family or the family unit that we're trying to establish, to find another way to meet me because she essentially is making majority of the money and she's.

Working with two jobs.

And I can't see anything wrong with her saying and this is just me with her saying like, yo, man up and help me.

I can't see nothing wrong with that.

And that would be or an Asian couple like I would that right.

But then that goes back to saying that as a man, you are defined by your ability to provide.

And that's what it goes back to.

And that's why men feel that way.

And when women say I didn't make you feel that way, it's not about the woman making you feel that way.

That's how we finish that, just how you feeling.

I don't know if I was conditioned that way or if it was my parents, but I heard that story.

And I wasn't get off the video games.

Yeah, but if she was playing video games and he was working but she still brought in less than fifty I would be telling him like, what do you care if she's on the video game.

Because your mind, she brings in this supplemental exactly the household.

But and but what I'm saying is that is that wrong for thinking like that?

Well, I feel like her mindset is that she wants him to help carry the load.

She's carrying a lot of it, and now she wants to have a baby as well.

Right, and he's not.

It doesn't even feel like he's putting in half the work.

She's not even asking him to man up and do it.

I think she just wants a partner.

And I'm glad you brought this up because this this goes back to like gender roles.

Right, Yes, she wants to have a baby.

He probably wants to a baby too, but who has to carry the baby her?

So since she has to carry the baby, somebody has to earn.

Her concern is that if I have this baby and say I can't go back to work.

But that's my point.

So as a man, what is it that you provide you can't have a baby.

We provide the ability to provide.

That's what's innate in us.

Provide and protect y'all have babies.

When you take that away from us, you ultimately take away what I can bring.

Because if I can't even bring that, all I'm gonna do is just have sex and you get it, have the baby, you carry the baby, then you go earn for us to take care of.

The baby, Like where is my existence in this?

You know what I'm saying.

That's why I feel like when people try to make it seem like there are no such thing as gender roles, I think that's kind of fraudulent.

There are certain things that we have to do.

If I want K to have my children, I have to provide and protect her while she goes through that process.

I can't say, Yo, you have a baby for us and we split fifty to fifty.

You know what I'm saying, It's not fifty fifty at that point.

At that point, you doing way more work than I am.

So so me personally, I do feel like there's a lot of pressure and stress on men to provide.

But who else is supposed to Yeah.

Because in this situation, like if this was a queer relationship and it was two women, either woman could carry right in this situation, I mean, they could get a surrogate if she wanted to continue working.

Because also it sounds like they picked partners based on the roles that they were able to.

Occupy.

She seems like.

The more dominant, the more logical, the more ambitious one, and he seems like the more like caretaking the more you know, he seems like he has a lot of feelings.

She said, he's a gentle soul, she said in the beginning of the letter, she said, how much they love each other and how much they really get along.

So it seems like emotionally he takes care of her the way she wants to be taken care of, and obviously vice versa.

Yeah, but then there's the practical part that still needs to be taken care of.

Yes, I can think of two relationships where the woman was the dominant, go get her just this, that and the third and then the guy was just like the nice, gentle soul and then it didn't don't pan out because when it came down to the practical portion of life, which is the providing four and paying the bills, then you can take but emotional emotions.

But so far there isn't another example.

There's a group of very powerful money making sisters who all married men who were going to be nervous for us and stay at home, and they all got divorced and they had a reality show on TV.

Use your mind and think about it.

But you know what I'm saying, And the reason why I bring this up is because there's the practical part of gender roles that we often ignore, you know what I'm saying because everyone wants to say what sounds good.

I think gender roles is so like antiquated.

I'm like, just the idea of ginger roles is just super antiquated at this point because it just it doesn't it doesn't serve us.

I don't think as a community in general for that reason.

I agree with that.

You know, like you mean, bro, I like I cleaned the kitchen.

That gender role thing on taking care of the place.

That me and my line when the gender roles start.

But here's my.

Gender roles and chores are two different things, right, And let's to be clear, Okay, you saying you cook and clean is a chore that can go to anybody in the house.

What I'm saying gender roles is like providing, earning, bread, winning.

We have to be pressed differentiation, okay.

For women, And was like, hey, I want to be a mom, and you cannot expect that woman, even if she's the boss of all bosses, to carry a child, birth a child, nurture a child, and be the breadwinner in that family, and that that husband gonna sit home and just be like, I'm gonna just wait till the baby pop out, Like you can't.

He has to do way more than that.

Of course he doesn't.

What are you really providing as a partner?

So I think that required some clarity with gender roles.

I think traditionally when we think of gender roles as like women staying at home doing all the domestic stuff and men going out and working.

Not the chores.

So do your argument is if you take that ability to earn away from the man, that what else does he have?

Yes?

Gotcha, because that's that's ultimately what Alanya Ayanla Aanla was saying, that they've pretty much uh dwindled down a man's value to what he can only provide, and how that's causing issues and become problematic for black men because now we only see ourselves as value that way, and we're not teaching our younger black men to see any other value in themselves, which I agree with because me and Kay have.

Talked about this.

I'm not teaching my son to just be a provider financially, He's gonna have to learn to be empathetic.

He's gonna have to learn to be understanding and be a nurturer as well.

So I'm teaching them to do other things.

But it is not lost on me that if you choose to ask a woman to have your children, you cannot then say to that woman, Yo, we're doing this fifty to fifty while you carry the baby, and you gotta deal with your nipples being hard game.

You know what I'm saying, Like, that's the practical part.

Nipples being sore, my bad.

Before seven days a week.

You want me to look look at what?

To look at her?

Really?

I did, no, But I'm just talking about the practical aspect.

And there has to be a pride in that.

Four men that you do have to provide.

Bro, women say they give birth, what do you do?

Like, I'm just being honesty, like it don't even make sense.

Well, you know what I do?

I provide.

I create a space for that woman who is giving birth to feel comfortable in her feminine energy to give birth to a child that is healthy.

And that's what I do as a man, I provide that space for that.

I can't sit back and be like, yeah, you gave birth and I played call of duty.

I just can't.

But you know, I think gender roles also doesn't serve us even when thinking about that, because I think that men so often and even some women so often think that uh, birth in a child is what a woman's body was made to do, and so her life doesn't change at all when she gets pregnant, especially if it's your first child.

You've never seen a woman go through childbirth.

You're not even thinking about the practical fact that she may not be able to go to work.

The whole time.

You're thinking, Oh, she gets her six weeks of paid leave.

You're not thinking about the year that she might want to breastfeed her child afterward, or the year she's got to be attached to the kid after that.

You're not thinking about what could happen during the gestation period.

Maybe she'll have to be on bed rest.

Maybe you know what I'm saying, Maybe she'll have to like she won't be able to be on her feet for as long.

And so I think too, Yeah, if you want to live a certain type of life, and there's nothing wrong too with just like being a partner, you know what I'm saying.

Being somebody's teammate means that you strategize to come up with the best plan for what works on the team.

So maybe it is that I'm going to get a second job when it's time for us to have a baby, or up to the time until you go back to work after the baby, and then when the baby is you know, a certain age, or when you go back to work.

I'm going to be a stay at home dad because I feel more comfortable as in the nurturing role.

Like I don't think it necessarily needs to be that gender roles are observed, but there needs to be a strategy in place so that both people are comfortable.

Yeah, but even that strategy said that the father should get a second job.

Well, yeah, because during the gestation period, just because you never know what could happen during that ten months that a woman is pregnant.

And that's the main reason why my father told me that I had to be a provider, because we talked about this before when Kay got pregnant.

We was in college, and I told him I can handle it and then we could we work together.

And he looked at me and said, what if what if she has a baby and can't go back to work, what if she can't.

Go back to school?

Is asking all those questions he was.

Asking me all those questions, and as a young dude, I was nineteen years old, I didn't have answers and it scared the shit out of me.

And then he was just like, that's your job to figure that out.

That's not hers why she's carrying that baby.

And when he said it to me, it kind of makes sense, like, as a man, what else am I supposed to do after I've already impregnated this woman, I gotta go provide and protect.

And I just think that those roles have kind of grown into since I'm the provider and protector and that I want on you.

I'm gonna be honest a lot of if you go from the fifties and so the way they treated women, it was like, yeah, I chose you, you're gonna have my kids, So now you stay in this house bedfoo them pregnant and you do that.

Am I agreeing with that?

No, I'm not agreeing with that.

But what I'm saying is that we can't negate the fact that women need help when they're going through childbirth and labor, and they need a partner who's going to be able to provide and protect for them.

In that time, I saw a mem it was a video actually showed Deval on Instagram the other day and I was like, wow, this is something that I've heard my grandmother say.

And it was an old Jamaican granny and she was with her daughter and someone was recording in pretty much she was just like, you know, when you make your money, even if you're married, what should you do?

And she said, have your own money.

And she said, you have your own account.

And it's an account that you keep to yourself that your spouse does not know about because you just never know.

So it's pretty much having your mad money, rainy day fund in the event that things go wrong kind of situation.

So Deval and I were talking about it because that's something that my grandmother had told me, and I know she told my mom that my aunts is just a thing that they always were concerned about.

Because in the event that your husband leaves you, you know, loses his job, don't want you no more, you want to walk away, you should be able to have a savings that you can at least transition into a new phase of life with or have some cushion.

So in the when you think about gender roles, you think about being able to earn money.

You know, what do y'all think about women than feeling like we need to have a stash set aside, because you just never know if this man can't provide and protect, or if he feels like because he provides and protect, he essentially owns me and there's no way out unless I have my fund.

You know what do you think about having secret accounts?

And it could be a thing where men have secret acounts too.

You never know, but I know that that was something that was told to me as a young lady growing up.

Well, you got to answer, do you have a secret account?

I don't.

I don't have a secret account.

We have our family pot, we both have our Yeah, we don't, and we just transparency works for the Valani because we've always had a plan.

But if it was a secret, you wouldn't tell us.

If if it was a secret, You're right, You're right.

Yeah.

But I can say say, quite honestly, like I don't.

I don't feel the need for that.

See a question right now.

I don't feel the need for that now.

And you can say that I'm stupid, you can say that I'm so you know, into my man that I don't foresee it being an issue.

Even if I feel like Deval and I were to split, which we know we're not going to do that.

We put it out there.

There's no splitting happening.

We had the conversation, But I don't.

Deval does not strike me as someone who would just want to see me suffer, even if that wasn't the case.

You know, So No, I don't.

And if he did, you just make sure you got the insurance policy period.

I got the.

Hut.

But questions, You don't have a secret account, but do you treat your personal account because you have the joint account that you each have your own personal do you treat your personal account as if as that almost secret account, like let me stash up for Randy Dad.

God forbid.

No, I don't see it as that.

I see it as more of an account where if I want to do something for de Vo and it wants to be a surprise and I don't want him to know about it, I'll use the account for that.

But because I got.

Access to it, like you know what I'm saying, Like I can go to see her account, yeah, right in the chase, you know what I'm saying, So it ain't really secret.

Yeah, but my mentality.

Having my own account is not let me hold on to this india that things go wrong.

So I feel like, if you continue to manifest stuff like that, you know what I'm saying, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

And I'm not therefore that that's not my mindset when it comes to us in our relationship.

But do any of y'all think about that mad money situation.

Or yeah, a single person, I did a crazy thing a couple of years ago.

I moved to a Rhode Island to live with a partner and that was dumb as fuck.

And had I not been able to.

Move, you know, if I didn't have you know, money to move and do what I needed to do, that could have been disastrous.

I could be living in my parents' basement right now, like a total loser.

But so yeah, even when dating, and I know myself well enough to know that when it comes to dating, I'm a bad picker.

Chances are if I get married it's gonna be twice because I got to.

Stop thinking, moved to Rhode Island and gave them with me your money, I would put it to you.

No, I'm not saying gave her my money but I'm just saying, like, because the the the deal was, I would move to Rhode Island.

She would pay for everything.

I wasn't supposed to pay for.

Anything, you sugar mama.

Yeah, but.

If you ever dated a white person, that should always be the deal anyway, the white person.

But uh.

Yeah, exactly so yeah, so having my.

Moment, yes you do that for the culture.

For the culture.

It wasn't much.

Me, but.

I got a little bit.

I got a little down payments.

But my step mom used to tell me that all the time, like, always have your own money.

I can say this growing up as a woman.

If if I had a girl growing up in these times, I would tell my daughter to make sure you have your own things.

But I also would because let's let's be honest, every time you you date someone you don't know like you really don't.

And there is a power dynamic with men and women.

It's not only financial, it's it's a physical right.

And it comes a point where the physical power dynamic does not work in the woman's favor.

And if my daughter was in a place where she felt unsafe and the only way she could get away was her resources, I would rather have her own resources to get away than have to fight physically, you know what I'm saying.

So I would tell my daughter, like, YO, first of all, you know, you got daddy.

Like I told my sister to shout out boone, y'all love you.

You know you're like a brother in law even though you're not married yet.

But I told my sister, if you ever feel unsafe, you can bring your ass home, Like you know what I'm saying.

Even if she don't have the resources, she got her brothers.

Yeah, she got her dad, you know what I'm saying.

And I think that's ultimately kind of like what the women were saying.

That grandmother was like, you gotta have your own to protect yourself and your kids because you can't fight this man if y'all going at it, and if you give him all your resources, then you stuck.

Absolutely, Yeah, I completely get it where it's get that for women of domestic violence victims, that's the reason why they typically endure it for so long.

It's because they don't have the monetary means to be on their own.

She said.

She said she didn't have the means that people asked, wat you say so?

Long said I didn't really have the means.

That, and I mean that's a crazy power dynamic in a relationship.

Whoever controls the finances controls the power.

So you got the physical power dynamic and then you have the financial So I think, I think, especially for women, I don't think it's a bad thing to tell women to have their own ship me.

I told then she needs to keep her own money.

If I give my wife money and she ain't got away to put it, of course she should have her own account.

Well, I mean that's yeah, But but my thing is she should also feel like it's her, that's her, and I gave this, but this is mine.

And I'm agreeing with you, like I think women should have their own accounts.

Like I was brought up on that our money, the money I make is our money, but I also has her own.

Whatever it's hers is herds.

She don't got to share that with me.

She don't got to share that with Victoria.

That's told you that, my bishop, my pastor.

Now look you see how he heard that.

I heard that, and you heard the same thing.

Right, So it's like men are hearing this.

And it doesn't have to be a secret, No, it's you have to be a secret.

But check this out.

Men are hearing this, and women are hearing to have your own thing.

And then wonder why men feel like the only thing that they have value with is their money.

Is that his bishop told his dad that.

You have your money.

Your money takes care everybody.

Your wife can have her own.

You know what I'm saying.

My father told me that a woman told another woman, have your own.

You see what I'm saying.

The things that we feel and believe is men we really don't realize we've been conditioned, socialized to think that way.

But you guys also have great examples.

I'm sure your bishop with somebody you respected, your dad is somebody who you respect as well.

Not everybody's getting the same kind of counsel.

That is that absolutely, that's where things go arise when people are getting you know, im proper counsel.

Say this.

Somebody asked us we was doing a radio and if you and they asked us, like, what we think about the fifty fifty comics?

And I really couldn't even fathom the idea because all of my life I was told that this is how a man is supposed to be.

I couldn't fathom just going to my woman and saying we gotta go fifty to fifty.

We did, there's your half of the rent, right.

I can't imagine that.

I can't imagine either.

I don't know.

One or two couples come to mind or that's there.

That's what they do and it works for them.

And that's my thing.

That's cool.

But why does it have to be a group discussion that we all agree that it should be fifty to fifty.

I also don't feel that everybody has to do what I say.

What I think is this is what works for me.

Yeah, your family, and I peered with somebody who just works for.

Right, right, because there might be a woman that wants to do fifty to fifty and a man that wants to do fifty fifty and if.

It works for them, it works.

Why do we have to have a group discussion about agreeing on if it's fifty to fifty or not.

Relationships are not a group project.

Marriage is not a group project.

Folks that matter, Remember that's moment of truth.

Don't steal my shit, it's shit.

Listening to all of this actually gave me a like a different perspective on one thing.

I'll wait to my moment to moment of truth.

But I feel like in y'all's relationship and probably in yours too, the power dynamic, I guess is not to me like Stark, I don't see.

So do you feel a power dynamic that plays out in your relationships?

You know it's maybe for us, particularly to Valini, because he empowers me so much to be my own person and to do my own thing, and he supports me through everything I do.

I never feel powerless because I feel like I can do anything.

You know, it's just up to me what I want to do now.

The Sagittarian me.

One day I want to do one thing.

The other day I'm like I want to stay home.

The other day I'm like, I want to be on to beat somewhere.

So me always chasing that spontaneity sometimes can leave him frustrated because he's just like, what the fuck do you want to do today?

You know?

But I think that's the reason why we've been able to thrive, because there really is no distinct line, but there's a desire for me to be able to contribute and you know, an earner as well.

Because you never made me feel like my power is only in my ability to provide.

I never felt like I had to force that on her, like I you know what I'm saying.

That's why I always feel like I can empower because it's just like, she never made me feel less than when I didn't have it, And I knew that it was hard, not only for me but for her because she was used to a certain I remember one day she asked me when she got the car, got broken into it and they took a person.

She came back and she said, where the fuck do you have me right now?

And I remember she asked that with like, like so like much sincerity because she had never lived like that.

She lived in Knarci in the nineties, which was all Italian and Jewish, right, and then we moved to Michigan.

She went to school at Hofstra and then we lived in Campton, Michigan, which was the suburbs, bought a house, and then we moved back to Crown Heights in an apartment.

Bro And then the second week we was there, there was.

A murder on I think Mark traumatizing.

Literally looked at me and was just like, Bro, where the fuck do you have me?

Bro?

Like?

And she was mad, and I.

Felt like because I was like yo, I was, I was rocking with you.

I said, Okay, we're gonna do the wedding and we'll stay here.

Fine, but how long?

Sometimes I really do be like yo, okay, Like I'm I've never said this publicly, but there was sometimes I was just like, man, if she left and just got with some rich nigga to just take her to do some shit, I wouldn't even be mad.

There was a moment.

There was a moment, yeah, because it was a moment in Brooklyn where it was just like a struggle after struggle after struggle, and it wasn't like a couple of months.

It was like a four year span where we I couldn't buy her no.

I couldn't buy her nothing.

I couldn't we couldn't go on no vacations, and it was like draining to me.

And I was just like, yo, I know that she likes to travel, and I know that she likes nice things, and I know that she had that for three years out of college and now we're going on four years and it hasn't happened yet.

Like if she just was like, y'all can't do this, I was kind of like whatever, you know what I'm saying, and that's what I'm talking about, Like the power dynamics was never from you.

It was all me on myself, like just yeah, it's dark cloud.

That's what it seems like.

It seems as though you both appreciate each other for what you bring to the relationship, and what you bring to the relationship is not monetary, right it is.

I know Kadeen always talks about your vision, your work ethic, and it's never like, oh, he bought me.

You know.

She's never asked me, like seriously, never asked me for anything monetarily.

Yeah, and we're talking about twenty two years about to be twenty three years of friendship.

Cane's never come to me saying, babe, can we or can I It's just always been me wanting to provide for her.

Even when we got married, I stopped saying that she was the reason why we had the big wedding because when I went back and started going over my mind, I wanted to live up to what all of my friends did for they wise.

That's why I said I could never put the power dynamic issue on her.

It was where I was coming from, like that.

Could have been in power that nine issue because the wedding thing, I think they injacked you up in private.

She did.

She wanted the wedding, not the house, and then flipped it after we had to move back to.

It because I literally was like, we were supposed to get booth.

That's what she said, sir, you know, And that was just my mentality.

But that's how much I believed in him and his ambition and his vision because I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a temporary situation, a little temporary setback to get farther forward, not thinking that temporary setback was going to pretend to the whole decade later.

So that was on me and rather than like dominant and submission, like the vision and the belief seemed to be the power balance.

That you, Oh yeah, that's fire too.

Trouble vision and belief.

You gotta have someone that can see it, but you need someone that.

Can believe it and definitely believe absolutely.

I sure did.

I still believe in you, Boo.

I'm believing you too.

I'm gonna show you later.

I believe in you and me.

That's less karaoke.

I believe we y'all need to have no alphabelic.

I got it on camera.

I got it on.

The camp cord evidence everywhere.

Break come back and do these list the letters, and we're back.

Let's jump into these listener letters.

Real alright, let's do it.

First letter more than one?

No, no, no, this is just the first word is first?

First?

Oh you want me to read it?

Aren't gonnahead that time?

Yeah, you was on your phone, So I'm trying to keep.

Trying to handle business simultaneously.

First, I love the realness, transparency, and often to city you bring from your real lives.

Oh, thank you so much.

When I log onto my Instagram and saw a part of de VAO's essence interview, it hit me then I'm just tired.

Kadeen.

Your beautiful words inspiration you have for your husband is everything I wanted advice.

As a wife and mother, I've been struggling to get a job.

Crazy is which is crazy.

With my degree in human resources and experience, that is crazy.

To help my husband out with bills and just to do the necessary things like buying things for the kids and just maintenance on myself as a woman.

It's been since fall of twenty twenty three that I couldn't work due to nursing school, but had to drop out due to me not having.

Funds to pay for school.

Ever since then, I just keep getting the unfortunately emails from employers.

I try to stay calm and not really express to my husband how I feel because it's hard for him, and I feel like I'm adding to the stress.

He will be married or we will be married nine years in October and never like and never like, never been on an airplane together, went on a vacation just the two of us, or with our children.

I'm thirty seven years old and he's thirty eight.

Every day is like I'm sitting by the phone hoping for an interview email.

I pray, we pray, I know and have God in my life.

But a sister is tired.

How can I express this hurt to those around me?

Me completing my bachelor's degree is dangling due to no financial AO.

I get everything she's saying, Sis speak your truth y the rest of this?

How can I relate this to my husband's speak?

Who else can you.

Relate to the truth?

Y'all been together nine years?

I guarantee you that husband loves you more than himself if you tell him exactly how you feel as a husband, what he's gonna do, which is probably the wrong thing, is try to figure out a way to fix it.

But since you told him, if y'all could sit down and figure it out together, two heads are better than one.

I was gonna say, devise a plan.

Man, If you can't speak to your spouse about the things that are troubling you deepest, then like, who else are you going to speak to you?

And sometimes and you said, you said those around me, maybe it's not those around you.

Maybe it's just him.

You know, you guys have to help with the plan because you two are in the relationship and he might be also feeling the same things you're feeling at the same time too, Like you want to be able to find a balance between finding work, working and enjoying life, like not having been on a plane together vacation just the two of you.

Sometimes you don't even have to try to get on a plane if you can't do that yet, it's just taking some downtime together.

Like before Deval and I were able to do those kind of things.

We used to go do a picnic in the park, you know, we drive somewhere, put the windows down, the sunroof open, and we play cards, like there were matinee Yeah, matinee shows because those were cheaper.

Remember we go bowling two lit two dollars bowling after seven we being in three four hours.

K put on some little short shorts.

I put on the tank top and we'd be flirting with each other.

Yeah, and you know, drinking.

Long Islands because it was happy hour at the bowling alley.

Like that's the fact.

I will say, this is the drink I used to drink.

That was terrible.

I forget Red Devil, the Red Devil, that's a while drunk.

Yeah.

People keep referencing the Essence interview, and I think it's because everybody is tired.

Everyone is tired, Like I.

Want to say this to that.

That interview wasn't like I'm tired as a celebrity quote unquote or a famous person.

It was like I'm just tired, Like I got kids, I got I got a wife, I got a lot of things to do.

When you're in a recession, it's harder to make money for everybody.

Right, It's not just hard for the mail carrier.

It's hard for the millionaire to make money because everybody's scrambling for the small amount of resources.

That's what a recession is about.

So I think everybody is just mentally and physically fatigued because we're all like running and running and running to get our share of the American pot.

So I will say this, we are man to your husband, love on yourself, right, but also understand that you're not the only one going through this.

We all tired.

Everybody the same time that I was that had the interview, I was talking to Josh right before that.

Josh was tired too.

I had left from Jay and Matt Me and Jay was me.

Jay and Matt was outside talking that day.

Jay was tired, Matt tired.

Bruh, Like I talked to my siblings, my girlfriends.

I was recently away with the friend.

Like everybody's just like yo.

Life is just exhausting.

It is regardless of where you are.

So good luck to you guys.

You have deep breath, continue to stay prayed up and talk to your hubby.

All right, y'all, thank you so much for writing in listener letters.

The email is uh well, pretty much still the same as of the season with Elis.

Ever after the Elisadvice at gmail dot com.

That's t H E E L L I S.

A d V I C.

E At gmail dot com.

Moment of truth time, we're talking power dynamics, the struggle that is balancing or not mad sas he has no coming from a newlywed, He's just like, I don't know about that life yet.

It's trick.

You can talk about stuff with my wife not here.

I don't want to give an unbalanced perspective either.

I understand that fair.

I understand that's a power balance right there.

You say that.

Before She's like, you had me on the internet looking stupid.

That gosh, what you got for us with the cool shades?

What are we going on?

This will happens?

Let people smoke before the podcast that he got shall because his eyes is red.

It's daisy.

He does not smoke.

What do you mean?

Never forgot his mom's watching him.

He not smoke.

His eyes a low.

That's why I do this to me.

Man, you don't got a moment of truth and let trouble go.

Trouble moment of truth.

But my moment of truth is don't try to place a gender role on me because in the words of the Great Durant Bernard, I'm a bad bitch and I'm that nigga amen.

Amen, I'm a bad bitch and cannot be contained.

At the same time, I don't know if you ate something.

Talking about is anybody in their booger stuff?

You want me to get this?

My moment of truth is you want to say it's yours with the same thing.

Marriage, relationships, those are not group projects.

The answers are within with the person that you are engaging with.

That is where the answer lies.

And you may be in a situation where it's like, listen, someone may not be the financial earner, but they provide something else that you love.

You got to put your head down on the pillow at night and feel good about the relationship that you're in.

So for everybody else, and do you and your.

Partner took my whole thing.

It again?

I was literally just going to say that, man, you don't have to have the whole world agree about your power dynamics and your relationship for it to work.

If it worked for y'all, two is that simple words?

Right?

Yes?

All right, y'all.

And if you want to be featured as a listener, I don't know, we did that part already, right, be sure, right, be sure to follow us on Patreon.

That's where all the action goes down.

You see, Trim has been doing infomercials the entire time.

If If you want more Ellis ever After content as well as the after show, you can find us there on Patreon.

You can also find us on social media at the Ellis ever After page.

I am Kadine, I am and I.

Am d Val, I'm underscoring Matt Doctor Ellis, and.

I'm josh I Underscore Duayne, and I'm at Trips the Cool t R I b b Z the Cool on Everything.

And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, be sure to rate, review and subscribe on three Baby.

Yet I Still Live.

I love that for us.

Go.

Ellis ever After is an iHeartMedia podcast.

It's hosted by Kadeen and Deval Ellis.

It's produced by Triple Video, production by Joshua, Duane and Matthew Ellis, video editing by Lashawan Rowe.

Di gif has to give, to give.

To every

And what you do