Welcome to at Home with Kelly and Tiffany, where we share powerful tools, exciting education, and relatable views about holistic health, physiological birth, and thriving in the female body.

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Now let's dive into today's show.

Welcome back to at Home with Tiffany and Kelly.

I'm Tiffany, and Kelly is not present on this exact episode because I got to interview a doula and friend of ours, Riley Chestnut.

And so you are about to hear an interview with Riley where we talk about her own experience with.

Bereavement in a pregnancy of hers and how that has inspired her to work in her own community in Dallas, Texas, providing bereavement support and doula services and just an all out advocate for supporting families who were walking through pregnancy loss and infant loss.

And so it's going to be a wonderful interview full of so much.

Really good.

Advocacy information, but also it is a message for those of us who will never experience this type of loss in our own lives because it's gonna connect us to the mothers around us who will or who have.

And so I hope that all of you listen.

Who feel like it's an okay conversation to get into.

You are sure to be inspired and to learn a lot, and I'm excited to bring it to you, especially now as October is national pregnancy and infant loss month.

And so we get to kind of kick off that bit of recognition with a conversation like this that I hope just basically unifies us as women and mothers.

I hope you enjoy.

Ri, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

I'm very excited for the super serious thing that we get to discuss today.

But you and I have had some fun before this podcast, which is why I asked you to come on, and I, I'm not sure if we'll make light of this topic necessarily, but there's a couple things we have discussed that you have made me laugh about and I'm used to being the one, cracking the jokes.

So say hello to our audience and then I'm going to, and then I'm gonna tell our audience what you, what you have cracked me up about recently.

I am Riley.

I am a doula, childbirth educator, body ready method professional, and a homeschool mom and a wife and follower of Christ.

Beautiful, and I'm so excited to have you on the show to share your expertise in a lot of areas, but you and I, and like Kelly too, we had a fast friendship over just having so many of those pieces in common.

But there is one thing that you do not abide in.

You tell us what it is.

Tiffany.

It's the socks during sleep.

I can't do it.

You know, I just, I live in Texas, it's hot.

even in the dead of winter, I can't do it.

You can't convince me.

I'm sorry.

There's no amount of research that will tell me that I gotta do it.

Sorry.

So for those of you listening who feel sentimentally similar.

Really preferring not to take this sock advice.

You can be, you guys can be team doula Reilly.

Team.

No sock.

It is a, a building a team, a growing team, a growing force.

I will not wear those tell, tell me what the hashtag is and we'll, we'll, we'll get it going.

But we do, but we do get to talk about serious things today, and I thank you for coming and being a part of this discussion.

And I know I'm gonna say it a million times during this interview, but we don't talk about this topic enough.

We don't talk about bereavement, we don't talk about loss.

We're getting better at talking about miscarriage, but.

Stillbirth and infant loss is like still such a really difficult thing to discuss, and I'm so thankful that there's women like you out there who are willing to have the discussion and want to use.

The discussion to bring the topic, you know, to the forefront.

So tell, share a little bit about your own background and why the topic of bereavement is so important for women who even have an experienced loss.

much for having Me too, Tiffany.

I know this is one of those topics that I agree.

I think we have come a long way.

And we are talking more and more about this.

I see it in my childbirth classes with, you know, women that are pregnant with healthy babies, sharing their miscarriages in an open room full of other women that I don't think 20 years ago we would've talked about it.

And my story is different.

So my husband and I met and got married when I was 17.

We did not have our first child until I was 22 and had my first at 22.

I have a few spine and so I found out when I went in to have his induction that I couldn't have an epidural so had an unmedicated birth.

You know, I joked that unmedicated birth chose me because there was no other way to do it, and then had my second baby at home.

And then our third child, we did genetic testing at the beginning purely because I wanted to know if was a boy or a girl, and that was it, because in my head.

I had never thought that this would be a part of my story, and her genetic testing came back beautiful and perfect, and we found out we were having a little girl after two boys, and went to our 19 week anatomy ultrasound with our two boys and found out that she had anencephaly, which is the absence of the skull, and it is one of those conditions deemed incompatible with life.

And so at that appointment, you know, we were, we were told almost immediately before we knew her diagnosis that we could terminate.

And I looked at the midwife and I said, what's wrong?

Ultimately, you know, chose to go to a maternal fetal medicine doctor and got confirmation of her diagnosis and then.

Later found a more supportive team.

But with my second, I had a doula, and it's actually a dear friend of mine before I even knew what doulas were, but with our daughter jc, I reached out to now my business partner, Stacy, and we worked out together at the gym, and I reached out and I said, Hey, this is what's going on.

I am gonna be pregnant.

I look very pregnant and.

We're not gonna get to take her home, I want to be able to go and work out.

Without a bazillion questions, I want to do normal life.

And Stacey offered to tell everybody at the gym what was going on so that I wouldn't be bombarded with all the questions.

And then ultimately she offered to be there the day that she was born.

And so I didn't know what that looked like.

I just knew that we needed all the support that we could get.

And so Stacy was there helping us navigate decisions and we, you know, had our church family surrounding us.

But after that, and I'm sure we'll, we'll get into more of her birth story, but after that, I just decided that God was calling me to walk alongside other families that were choosing life for their babies, that the world deemed invaluable.

And something where a provider told me, some people find comfort in carrying these babies to term, but you could just get it over with.

And didn't know about what that looked like.

I just knew that that wasn't a choice that we wanted to

Coming from the.

so after we had her and, and she passed, I.

Decided that I was gonna support women that were walking loss and got certified through still birthday, which is a doula training and with an emphasis on loss and decided that it was so important.

Maybe even more important for women that had babies with either critical or life limiting diagnosis is to have support around them to know.

What their options were, because sometimes I think the language that's used is not honest about what that pregnancy or even that birth looks like.

Thank you for sharing so much., Thank you for telling us about what happened to you, and also shining a light on the.

The life and hope that, and, and the the goodness that can come out of having such a devastating thing happen in your family.

And I'm sorry that that happened.

I'm sorry that happened to you, but.

What do you think is the reason that there's so much dishonesty in that space?

What, what do you think providers, I'm assuming it's mostly other, it's mostly providers.

What do you think that they're trying to prevent someone from understanding or acknowledging the truth of the experience or like, what, why do, why are we, what are we missing here?

Why is the bereavement doula even necessary?

You know, like.

and I think it's really sad because I think a lot of what posed to me with the first provider was we can just go ahead and induce you, and no one talks about what that process looks like with someone who's 20 weeks and your body is not ready.

a lot of times those women sit in labor for a very long time and it ends up being an overly traumatic experience.

And I think, bereavement doulas specifically are going to come alongside women and let them know what their real options are, right?

And know that you can carry this baby as long as you want, there can be.

More that, like more looking at what's going on to keep it safe for you.

Because ultimately I think that's what's pushed a lot of the time is this is not safe for mom, right?

And so we need to intervene right now because of the possible complications.

So one example would be with with JC that she had anencephaly, so she's.

Missing the part of the brain that tells her to swallow.

So for a lot of those babies, they have polyhis or high fluid, that can be dangerous for mom.

And ultimately, you know, can cause stillbirth rates to increase just because of the excess fluid.

So with my first.

Provider, my MFM, he said, you know, we can just take care of this.

You don't need to carry her as long as you want.

Just, yeah.

I switched and thankfully met an amazing who we walked in and he said, you know, this is your daughter.

She's fearfully and wonderfully made.

And yes, her diagnosis is the same as that previous provider.

But if you want to have a sonogram once a week so that you can see her, I'll code insurance.

So they'll pay for it.

I will, you know, do anything in my power so that you can enjoy this experience.

But there's just not a lot of providers out there that want to provide level of care.

I think.

I think it's more work.

think, you know, does their liability increase maybe a little bit.

It's just something to manage, right?

But on the flip side, we see providers wanting to over manage healthy pregnancies, then when there is a pregnancy that might need more help and management, let's just get it over with.

We don't wanna touch that, you know?

Yeah, so part of it is just.

For lack of a better word, like professional efficiency.

I don't see value in providing this care.

I would prefer to get this over with, but it's also a societal discomfort with loss and death, and it also is probably a lack of training, a lack of good education.

And I think the research supports, you know, your mental health.

When we allow a woman see her baby grieve her baby, hold her baby, the research shows that she does better mentally long-term grieving than wondering if she made the right choice.

Because ultimately what my husband and I landed on was we want to give her the best shot that we would give our other kids.

That we would give any healthy baby.

She deserves the same level of care and the same level of dignity that our healthy boys did.

And we just knew that was made in God's image and she was a, she was worthy of being valued.

How would you, counsel, a woman who's not getting the type of support from her provider.

In some of this initial stage of just looking for a provider who's going to be able to provide the type of care that she needs for the rest of her pregnancy if she finds herself in a similar situation as you with jcs pregnancy.

are amazing providers out there.

I live in the Dallas area and I am connected pretty well with a lot of the really good providers in the area.

And I have a list.

That I will send people and I will say, these are who are gonna support your decision to carry your baby.

And these are the people that are going to give you actual information and not just fear mongering and scare tactics, or now that you know abortion is illegal in Texas.

We're telling women, I just had a mom two weeks ago that reached out who was told she just needs to go to New Mexico and get a termination for a baby like jc, whose condition is the same thing.

that's what she was told was her only option.

And so we talked and she connected with a better team of providers.

And I know that there are.

A list of pro-life providers based on what area you live in, and I think that's where you start.

I think you start with the providers that are known to support life and value life, even in a situation that maybe is not a hundred percent healthy, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

That's a great, that is a great tip and I, I'm thinking about something that you said earlier about.

It's not just a problem to take care of now or a problem to take care of later, right?

It's not apples to apples.

It's not like, well, you could either have this terrible traumatic experience now get it over with and not have to suffer through the rest of your pregnancy, or you could suffer through your pregnancy and then have this terrible experience later.

There's gonna be an element of it, of course, because grief is just.

A lot.

Experiencing that loss is a lot, but I don't think that's a short, I'm not sure.

Would with your experience, is that a shortcut?

Are you short-cutting anything?

Are you avoiding anything If you choose to induce early and go through that experience sooner than later?

what's really hard about this is I've now done this for eight years.

And I have counseled numerous women on, you know, either choosing to induce or choosing to terminate.

I've had many women choose to terminate and later come back to me looking for resources on how they heal from that, because they have the guilt and the shame, versus knowing that I.

Gave this baby the best chance that I could.

I think I've also met women who didn't know that they could even carry the term.

You know, that there is truly no informed consent in some of these situations.

It's truly just, you're just gonna do an induction now because this baby is not gonna make it, so you might as well do it now.

And they don't even know what the other options are, you know?

So I think.

term to be done with it sooner rather than later is actually causing more harm it is you to grieve and heal.

And I will say that, you know my 20 weeks until she was born at 33 weeks, because my fluid levels got to a point where it

Something

longer safe for me to carry.

And I

possible.

provider who knew that and who looked at me and looked at my husband and said, Hey.

We're done now.

Her fluid was, my fluid was at 47 and normal is about 16 at that point in pregnancy.

And he said, now our risks have increased and we just need to meet your daughter.

And gave us the weekend to, we had a date night.

We went out with our friends who also had a daughter that had the exact same condition.

That was born two years in, one day jc.

So they were in our hospital room on their daughter's second birthday and brought us cake and just celebrated her.

And we had a whole team, sorry, I'm getting emotional.

Had a whole team of people that.

You know, my, my shtick was Wingstop when I was pregnant with her, and I just ate all the wings, so many wings to the point that everyone in our church and our friends, they were all eating Wingstop and using a hashtag, celebrating her life before she was even born.

And.

Wingstop ended up donating all of the food to her celebration of life service that she had.

it was really just an awesome experience and I, those 13 weeks were the most refining and incredible time.

And I can look back and go, man, I, I soaked up her pregnancy.

I got to know her The little person that she was, and I got to really just enjoy that time with her and wouldn't take back a second of it.

And yes, it was hard and it was exhausting to go out in public with my two boys and the number of people who said, oh, are you getting a girl?

I would, you know, say yes, but she doesn't get to come home with us.

But that also opened so many doors of other women crying to me, talking about their stillbirth that they never told anyone about before because it wasn't talked about.

So there's just, I've never met a woman who

Okay.

to carry her baby as long as she could regret it.

But I have met women who chose not to and regret it every day.

Sounds like a huge piece of women feeling able unequipped and encouraged to do that is their support system.

And so we talked about the provider a little bit.

You are the lady in Dallas.

Tell us, tell us a little bit about Labor of Hope and also tell us about.

Like, let, let's kind of unpack the term bereavement a little bit and how women would locate some, locate the lady like you in their area or get connected to some of those pieces so that they can start to build support around options and

Yeah,

that.

Labor of Hope provides doulas, photographers, and celebration of life services all and other families like connecting other families together that have walked similar paths.

All free of charge.

We're a nonprofit.

We rely solely on donor support.

And we, about six years ago, trained over a dozen doulas with providing them with still birthday training and then a weekend away where we, you know, went over what to do in a bereavement birth and how that looks different from.

regular, regular doula role, So as a bereavement doula, I am doing a lot of the same doula

Mentioned.

coaching and emotional support and the physical support, but also the biggest piece of that is the memory making side of it.

Once baby is born, sure that we're getting all the hand prints, all the footprints.

You know, a lot of times we, we clip a little bit of baby's hair and get thumbprints and toe prints and these memories, they're not gonna get back.

You only have the time that you have to create those memories and also equipping people to know, to ask for things like a cooling co.

Right.

Something that most hospitals have that will help preserve baby's condition.

If you have family coming into town to meet this baby, or a photographer coming to do pictures, because for a lot of these families, those are the only pictures they're ever gonna have, and those memories have to last a lifetime.

A lifetime.

And so with doula, I think the biggest difference is those memories.

That have to carry them forever.

And so training more women on how to support those families

Awesome.

And still birthday was the training that I went through and that we put a dozen women through in

Planning.

And if you go to their website, you can find a doula that is still birthday trained near you.

That is the best place to go.

Even though we are located in Dallas, I have supported women in Ohio, in California, in Tennessee all over.

The lost world is really small and it's the club nobody wants to be a part of, but once you're a part of it, you're really grateful.

And because of those connections, I have been able to help find support all over the country, which is.

Huge and just amazing.

It's amazing and thank you.

Thank you for serving that way.

Thank you for caring.

Thank you for showing up in that role.

It would, it could have been so easy to process that independently and privately.

And instead there's so many that gets to benefit from your story and jcs story and.

You know, what we get to know about her and how that has, you know, shaped you into the woman and mom that you are.

Tell us a little bit about some of the details of her birth, if you feel like sharing, to give the listeners an idea of.

How that went for you and some, and especially highlight for us, ri like the auctions, things that you chose, things that you didn't, didn't have control over, but wish you did.

Or the memory making the people the, like, give us some of those really tangible pieces too from her birth.

like I said a little bit ago, we went in for one of our weekly ultrasounds.

I had already been struggling with high fluid, just, which is very normal for anencephalic babies and something that we were monitoring pretty closely.

It was very large and very uncomfortable at this point, and I went in and that's when he said, you know, Hey, this is.

Now it's dangerous.

And of course my husband's like, all right, let's go right now.

And I was like, hold on, a minute.

And we spent the weekend, you know, doing what I, I said before and we went in on a Sunday night on the 5th of June and had a lot of our church family there.

There.

Unbeknownst to me there was a signup genius.

we had people praying throughout the day and the night, all night long.

The hospital commented that they had never seen a waiting room.

So full, needs were met before I even knew that I needed it.

I had, you know, kind of jokingly in my very.

Sarcastic sense of humor a little bit.

I said in one of our ladies' Bible classes, I said, does anyone know of a funeral home?

Because I'm gonna need one.

one of the women at our church emailed me and she had lost a daughter a few years before and she said, you know, this is where we used, where we, you know, had our daughter taken care of and we would love to go and set that up for you.

I didn't know that was an option.

I never had to step foot inside of the funeral home.

Someone went and got all the paperwork, it to us at the hospital, helped us fill everything out, and literally just signed it.

They paid for it.

nothing.

And so when we went in to have her, we had all of that done ahead of time, which I think is also one of the roles of a bereavement doula that no one really knows is having someone that knows.

What you need to take care of ahead of time and the questions to ask like about the death certificate and about the funeral home, and getting all of that set up because the day that that baby is born, all you want to do is focus on the baby and that's it.

Right?

And so we went in the night before they

Why.

induction because my fluid levels were so high, my uterus was not so happy with some of the medications that they were giving.

And so we ended up kind of having to do things really slow and then eventually they broke my water and I had requested to have monitoring the whole time.

is something that, you know, again, the doula is gonna tell you to do because a lot of providers will say, we're not gonna monitor because this baby is not gonna survive.

So why would we monitor baby right now?

I knew that I wanted to meet her while she was still alive.

And so we advocated for the monitoring and when they broke my water, about 24 hours after I went in, she went into distress.

And our plan all along was that if she went into distress, I wanted to

So.

a C-section.

And you know, at this point I was probably four centimeters dilated, so not close to having a baby at all.

And

So.

for me, also being unable to have an epidural.

And knowing that I was feeling everything happening and wasn't gonna get to take this baby home, when they said that she was in distress, I said, okay, I'm done.

ahead and just do the C-section.

And was no pushback, which I later found out at another birth that that doctor was given a little bit of grief for doing a C-section on me, she just kept repeating, this is what the patient wanted.

is what she wanted and we're gonna respect that.

And I declined any medication to make me kind of loopy that they normally will give you.

Before we knew that I would have to have general anesthesia because of my back.

so we

I hear.

ahead of time and we knew that that was something that was gonna have to happen.

And so, you know, we, we went back for the C-section.

They put me under, my husband got to be in the room, which again was something I didn't know I had to ask for until after the fact because normally in a general anesthesia, C-section, spouses are not allowed and they made the exception.

They let my husband be back there with me and woke me up before we left the OR she was still alive and she lived for 51 minutes.

Yes.

And one of the other things that we advocated for was suctioning her.

they're not gonna do extreme lifesaving measures, but doing something to give her the most time.

Again, I didn't know that that was an option, and that was something that we talked about beforehand with other lost families.

And then of course, my doula.

so.

They suctioned her a little bit.

The NICU doctors did.

Everybody was very respectful.

And it is a complete miracle that I remember everything after general anesthesia, you know, I woke up and was a little bit loopy and obviously in a lot of pain because I didn't have an epidural and I just had major abdominal surgery.

So I woke up and they took me back to the room, which was.

Full of people.

My mom was there.

My boys came up almost immediately when they made the call that we were gonna have the C-section.

So my older boys that are now almost 15 and 12, they were five and two at the time.

So they came up there and it was just an incredible time.

And that sounds so strange.

Considering the circumstances, but at the same time, I asked the questions, I had the support and I knew what to advocate for, and because of that, we got those 51 minutes I have memories of holding her and loving on her and the pictures and the memories that have to last me forever.

So good.

That's so good.

There's so much goodness threaded into something that is otherwise quite terrible.

Right?

Quite awful, quite sad.

Over like devastating, overwhelmingly devastating in some ways.

And yet we can still use our voices and our advocacy and our choices and and.

And, and have the best experience possible.

It's worth it.

It's worth it to have the best experience possible when it's you know, less than one hour with your child on earth.

Tell me a thank you for sharing jcs story.

Thank you so much for sharing that and weaving in those, those pieces.

Exactly like I asked you to, giving people options and helping them understand choices and what to ask for.

Tell me a little bit about.

How that changes for the woman who is going into her birth and her baby's already passed.

I think with stillborn babies, you know, there, it's a very quiet environment it's very obvious when that baby is being born, how quiet the room is and.

I am hyper aware and telling my clients that are experiencing this to fill that room with, you know, whether it's positive affirmations, whether it's worship music, whether it's any sort of music even, you know, I've had one client that had a stillborn baby and had to have a C-section and we had the, or.

With the most peaceful, calming music requesting that when the baby is born, that we still say, Hey, ba, the, the head is out, baby is out, baby is here.

If that baby has a name, using that baby's name really, really gentle with the baby's skin, Being super careful with.

The integrity of that baby, treating that baby like it is a living baby talking to the baby like it is a living baby the baby's name.

We often do saline baths.

I don't know if you're familiar with that, but can get a big tub and fill it with saline and it helps preserve baby's condition.

And you can also have some of the most beautiful pictures.

Because of the saline.

And so walking alongside nurses and doctors and telling them these things, you know, I've always had most amazing experiences in those scenarios where they're super respectful and want to do everything that the family wants.

And as soon as I walk into a situation like that, I'm gathering up supplies.

I'm making sure that we've got the stuff for the hand prints, we've got the stuff for the footprints.

We, you know, still have the birth announcement that you get when your normal healthy baby arrives.

Right?

So still treating that baby with dignity and knowing that yes, this looks different.

And then also asking if they have the cooling co.

Something that's gonna help preserve baby's condition long term if a photographer couldn't be there right away.

I've even had nurses take pictures with their phone or take it with a hospital camera and give, you know, the family an SD card.

So all the dignity for those sweet babies and celebrating their life.

Thank you for sharing that.

I mean each circumstance is quite nuanced, right?

And it's impossible to give.

Recommendations for something across the board, like normal live birth is too, I mean, that's, we're talking about the, we're talking about the same event here.

What do you see as being like really beautiful truths that overlap, that just encompass birth in general?

What can bereavement birth be like?

And how can we, how can we approach that in, in the way that like, it's still birth, it's still a huge experience for your family.

It's still this person in your family, it's still a member of your family.

What are some other, what are some other things that women can be considering?

Just universal truths of birth

biggest thing that I see is, you know, in my line of doula work, outside of bereavement, I am primarily focused on out of hospital, on medicated birth.

And so in the cases where we have a woman whose baby is still born, or a situation like jcs, a lot of times those women still want that really peaceful environment.

And I think sometimes we tell them like, no, no, just get your epidural.

It's, it's already hard enough.

You don't need to make it harder on yourself.

You don't get a prize, you don't get a medal for doing it Unmedicated.

No, we can still value their choices and their birth and what they want.

We can still give them a positive birth experience that looks exactly like what they wanted before.

Just because the circumstances have changed doesn't mean their entire birth has to go the door.

Right?

You can still have a beautiful unmedicated birth.

For a baby with a terminal diagnosis, if that's what you want, you can still have a beautiful unmedicated birth for a stillborn baby.

I did one last year and that was still something that was so important to her.

And even if, you know, she had to go from out of hospital to hospital and she still wanted them to let her know when

To.

was there and unmedicated, you know.

But she still wanted that baby's arrival to be announced like it would be in a healthy birth, right?

And so there are so many things that you're stripped of when you get a terminal diagnosis or when you find out that your baby is no longer with you.

So why can't we keep a lot of the same preferences and desires the same, even in something that maybe is not gonna go the way that you initially pictured.

And I think a lot of women find a lot of value in that.

It gives them, empowers them, it gives that baby dignity, and it gives them just peace when it's all said and done.

Thank you.

Thanks for caring about that and sharing that with women and making it making it worth, worth talking about, worth asking for.

And it's, yeah, it's just a, it's still a really important event.

You still.

Have control over a lot of pieces, especially as it go as it pertains to how you get to look back on that day and how you feel about that day and that event.

Like it is, it's worth having the things about it that you wanted to in your experience, do you.

S well, so it sounds like with jcs birth specifically, you said that there were people who just were coming out of the woodwork.

It was just you were just getting completely surrounded and cared for with so many pieces that you couldn't have even thought of yourself.

I love that for you.

I'm so glad that was your experience, and it's a beautiful way that we should be encouraged as a community because this, this discussion, this message is not just for women who have experienced this type of pregnancy loss or infant loss.

This is a, this is a discussion and a conversation that needs, that everybody needs to be aware of and have because we are responsible as.

Community members for other women who experience it to show up Well, right.

Talk.

Talk to that piece.

Talk to that woman who's listening now ri and share.

How do we, how do we show up as a community?

How do we, how?

Not everybody is going to be able to say what they need in this situation.

Not everyone's gonna feel comfortable asking for help.

Not everybody, not, not the, the bystander, the onlooker might not feel comfortable, which is that, that's a whole different discussion.

Right.

But what is the responsibility as the community members once we know that somebody we know is going to walk through an experience like this or has recently?

What do, what do we need to know as a community?

wants, we all wanna relate.

wants to have that common ground with your friends or the people that are around you.

And so.

For women that have never experienced miscarriage or pregnancy loss or stillbirth infant loss, they don't feel like they can say anything because they've never walked it themselves.

Right?

But the best thing you can do is be there, just show up.

You don't have the right words, even, you know, even somebody who has experienced it.

The way that my story was is different from one of my dear friends who also walked almost the exact same thing and the way that she processed it was different.

That doesn't make mine right and hers wrong, or hers wrong, and you know, whatever.

It different for every single person.

And the best thing you can do is show up.

there, you know, it is an uncomfortable topic for a lot of people.

And media has done amazing things in connecting women that are walking through loss.

But some of my closest friends throughout that journey were women who had never experienced it, who showed up and didn't feel like they needed to say anything.

They just showed up.

to take my kids to the park.

They, I didn't cook for like a solid year.

Literally didn't cook for a year.

a cooler on my porch for the days that I didn't feel like I wanted to talk to people, and people dropped off food.

People took my boys to the park.

People you know, just said, Hey, I'm praying for you.

I still have a card from one of my dear friends from church.

And one of the things that she put in the card was, always be a girl mom.

And at that point, I had two boys and I had no living daughter.

I have a living daughter now, but that little statement right there, almost 10 years later still something that makes me tear up.

And she didn't even remember writing it.

I told her a couple months ago, I'm like, do you even remember this?

And something that you see as insignificant is maybe gonna mean the world to her.

her baby.

Don't show up and think that we just don't, we don't need to talk about it.

We don't need to talk about it.

I, no, it's okay to bring it up.

I guarantee you, you're not making her think about something that she wasn't already thinking about.

Right.

She's been thinking about it.

If that baby has a name, use the baby's name.

Include that baby in their family lineup.

My greatest honor is being J C's Mom.

Yes.

I have five other living kids now, when someone says, this is J C's mom, that's still huge.

So no one's gonna have the right things to say, show up.

You don't even have to show up with food.

Just show up, encouragement, offer, you know, help with their older children if they have them, or just sit with them and also be able to do, you know, my dearest friends were the ones that could talk about jc, but then could also talk about normal life, because I still had two boys.

I still, you know, homeschooled.

I still did normal day-to-day life.

And I didn't need to just always cry.

Some days I needed to cry, and then I needed to be the ridiculous person that I am.

having the freedom to do that with my safe people was huge.

Yeah.

Just show up or just be present.

Right.

Just be a person who's willing to be present in it and simply saying, I.

I'm here for you.

I'm thinking about you.

I'm praying for you.

That's enough.

That's enough.

If you don't feel like you're, like, you have a close enough relationship to get in there, you know, with them just reaching out and letting them know that you're thinking about them, that you love their baby, just for the fact that their baby's life has value to you and value to the fam, value to your family, right?

Like, I mean.

That's really simple.

That's something everybody can do.

I think

You.

about a whole of.

Feeling like we need to say the right thing and we don't wanna say the wrong thing.

guilty of saying the wrong thing all the time in lost situations or unhealthy situations.

Don't overthink it.

You probably don't have the right thing to say and you might say something that's wrong, but at the end of the day, what they remember is that you showed up.

You mentioned still birthday as a resource, like a more of a, more of like a national resource that women can go to.

What are some of your other favorite resources that might be a book or a podcast or an Instagram account or something that you think is really nailing this conversation for women who want to keep learning and keep getting more support?

I love now I lay me down to sleep, which is an organization that'll take pictures after a certain gestation, maybe 24 weeks, or, I don't know a hundred percent, but they've got photographers nationwide and a hotline that you can call for support.

That is a great resource.

have always loved Bridget's Cradles for second trimester loss.

They are in most hospitals now, at least in the Dallas area, and that is just a beautiful way to honor those babies that are born in the second trimester, which sometimes I think get less resources for.

And she has a book that she just came out with called Cradled in Hope.

That is fantastic.

I love Mother of Wild is on Instagram and they have prints for loss and for miscarriages.

And I think even Healthy babies, they've got birth prints.

But that is something that each and every Labor of Hope client gets a birth print after their baby is born with their birth details and everything.

And books.

I mean, I love The Hope Mommies is another organization that is also nationwide, that has groups that meet all over for miscarriage, infant loss men mommies enduring, mothers enduring neonatal I think something like that.

That's another great resource.

There are so many groups out there that connect women and so many great like Bible studies and books, and that's one thing that when you walk this, you're given at least, I was given bazillion brochures and pamphlets and suggestions, and my all time favorite book is a Nancy Guthrie book.

And it's hearing Jesus speak in your sorrow.

She lost two babies and that book was one that I gift every single person that is walking loss because it's just incredible.

Thank you there.

There's so many so many.

Places where women can, I think most importantly, just get some more support, not feel quite so alone or in and isolated and like, this is only happening to you before because everyone else is so uncomfortable talking about it.

And like you've said, we might, we very well might know women who have experienced stillbirth and or infant loss and not had.

Never told their story.

It's not a part of the way that they introduce themselves or their families or how, you know, getting to know somebody.

And so it's just good.

It's good to hear the different ways that women are able to process and get some support.

If you, Riley had like a parting statement for the women who are listening, who are experiencing a loss like this.

To anticipate the hope that is to come because of what you have experienced yourself.

You know that there's a place where it doesn't feel the way that it did on the days that you had to process the overwhelming amount of, of grief.

I'm sure that, i'm sure that you still have days where it does feel overwhelming and hits you and feels really heavy and hard, but what you have shared in this interview so far is a lot of hope.

And so what do you, what can you share with women who are listening right now who don't feel hopeful about their own situation?

One, I tell everybody I wish I could give you a five year out of what this looks like and if you allow this baby story, whether it's miscarriage, stillbirth, story like mine, infant loss, if you allow that story to be shared, you will be tremendously blessed by what comes out of it.

I.

And nine years out and almost a decade, which is insane.

I still look back at pictures that are in my home and think, did I really do that?

Was that really something that I did?

And I'm always blown away by the way, God has used it.

You're not alone.

There are women all over.

The country that are walking something that nobody wants to walk, wants to do this.

I wouldn't ask for this, but I also wouldn't take it back.

I wouldn't because the way that I value my family, the way that I value my children, every aspect of my life is changed because of jc and first year is.

Hard.

hard and it's, it was ugly.

It was ugly at times.

I had friendships that I said things that I probably shouldn't have said in my grief, and I have amazing friends who showed me so much grace and loved me really well through some really, really hard seasons.

don't lose hope your story.

Because one day you're gonna look back and you're gonna think, wow, I did something that I never thought I could do.

And look what happened because of it.

Allow your story to be shared, because it's shared, it connects more women to more resources and feeling less alone and knowing that.

This is a huge part of the reason that I do what I do.

I wouldn't do what I do without JC and I wouldn't be the mom that I am without jc.

But that first year was real hard and after that, I felt like I could kind of slowly back the pieces of who the new Riley was.

'cause I'm not the same Riley, I'm not the same wife, I'm not the same mom.

But man, God did some incredible things and it's just something that I am tremendously grateful for.

So when it feels like there's no hope, and just hard, and it's just awful, lean into that one day the sun will come out again and you'll feel like this was worth something.

If it changed one baby's story, if it changed one mom, if it allowed mom to one mom to just feel like this baby had dignity, it was all worth it.

Amen.

Thank you.

I'm gonna end us on that'cause there's nothing better to end..

Thank you.

for having me.

I am so grateful that I was able to share with you, and this was just incredible.

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