From the dark corners of the web.

An emerging mindset.

I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.

A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point.

In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.

I see literally zero hope.

This is in Cells a production of KT Studios and iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode twelve.

Behind the scenes.

With Looks Maxine.

It's all about making themselves better for someone else that is not there.

You must change.

You are not acceptable to society, You're not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.

We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity that could also be what triggers young people to feel like this is the place for them to learn.

I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT's Studios.

To step back and reflect on what we've learned making the series, Stephanie Leideker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down for a producer round table.

We dug into everything our own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that challenged us, and now the broader manosphere shaped the stories we uncovered.

Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series and why now felt like the right time to do it.

In Cells has been one of those projects that's been close to my heart as a company.

We've heard the word in cells for a really long time, and it's kind of been one of those things that we hear about but don't totally understand fully, and over the course of the last few years, it feels like it's one of those words that keeps popping up again and again and again.

And suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like something that was very fringe in that nobody really heard much about.

All of a sudden, it was on the ticker of most news shows, and maybe for reasons that I can't quite explain.

Number One Brian Coberger's case.

Listen, He's not an inceell.

He's never been identified as an inceell, but it was something that hit the ether when we were covering that case, because that word came up so many times.

Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Coberger, who's serving four life sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students.

Kylie Gonzalvez, Madison, Mogen Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle.

Kid Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and three seasons of the Idaho Masacre podcast.

It was a year's long endeavor.

And again, Courtney, you and I we've been working on cases surrounding in cells for a really long time, and suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things that we had to dig deeper into.

I mean, look, we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries and we walk into a lot of dark spaces.

That's the spirit of what we do every day.

This is one that I think we all need to know more about, understand better, and it's really something just to keep us all safe.

I think the takeaway for me is that not every in cell or someone who identifies as an inceell is dangerous.

Not every person who identifies as an inceel is going to be violent.

We know that.

However, when looking at a pocket of people on the dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places that are not really monitored.

So without us talking about it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves or protect those that we love.

So when you talked about it, sort of preconceived notions, and my go in was every in cell was sort of aggressive and hate filled.

And the beautiful work that Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying in cells, the depth of the sadness.

And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this.

I will say too.

You know, in cells to me always had a violent underbelly, and I think now going through this journey, it's really showing this is a real story about loneliness.

This is a story about feeling outside of the norm, which frankly is the norm.

Who doesn't feel left out, who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes right, So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that it will get better.

As adults, we sort of learned this because we've been forced to.

But now the target audience is young people, and I think now we can all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently, and look what we're researching online and frankly, what is finding us online?

It's big business.

We are the commodity.

We are big business.

What I really see though, is there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised and left out, and therefore you want to belong at all costs.

Something like this is the perfect entry.

Gabriel Cristio, a producer at KT Studios, talks about his perception of the topic of in cells at the beginning of the series and goes on to explain how that's evolved over time.

I began on this project early on by reaching out to self identifying in cells.

Carolyn and I, another producer on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them were less responsive to outreach from a woman.

So I ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach, and that approach made it much easier to connect, and it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most of the self identified in cells featured on this project.

Going into in cells, did you have any thoughts or preconceived notions or expectations.

I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what in in cell meant.

Once I started hearing people's personal stories, everyone I spoke with had a different path into the community and a different relation chip to the label.

There's a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand before this project.

Whether it's Lewis or mister East or New Cold Squid, did anything surprise you?

And speaking with them.

I think just how much each one wanted to have a conversation to just speak with what they would refer to me as enormies, but really someone who wasn't there to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know, and learn from their experiences.

Many of them opened up more than I expected for a first time interaction.

One of them even told me at the end of our conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void, except maybe for once, the void wasn't feeding into their negative thoughts.

It was just someone who wanted to feel heard.

Right, So connection, Yes, connection, A lot of these self identifying endzels were really just seeking a connection.

I have to say.

That's what I feel like I learned most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue, as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection.

It is loneliness.

It is not being heard, it is not feeling like you're valued, and therefore you don't know where to go to it except for too many places that will echo and underline what you're already feeling, and a.

Lot of it is the online forums where there's not another face behind the camera.

A lot of them, I know, did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them from forming a connection are their looks where looks maxing and all that comes into place and they start trying to change that to form the connection.

And because it's judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates a barrier for that connection for them to happen.

Whereas someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not even care, you know, which is why a lot of these in cell forms continue to grow.

With your time on the in cell boards, was it what you expected or were you you surprised by any language content, any takeaways.

I was surprised at how receptive they were into wanting to speak, and as soon as I introduced myself as a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to engage a lot of them wanted to address misconceptions, or some of them you just wanted to share their story and their perspectives about and sell them.

I honestly expected a lot of hostility, like I was going to be mocked or dismissed, but instead, I think approaching with an open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot of these conversations.

I also learned a lot about the nuances within these communities, the differences between Black Pill, Red Pill, Blue Pill.

Investigative journalist and KAT Studio's producer, Connor Powell weighs in on how his personal perspective has changed after working on this podcast.

He spent a lot of time on INSUL forums as well as speaking with self identifying and CELLS journalists and experts.

Anytime you sort of see like a young man who is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of went along with the idea that, oh he's an inseel.

After researching talking to people who are self described in cells, I understand now that it's a little bit more of a specific term, and I'm not using the word as flippantly maybe as I would have in the past.

And I think I've even said to a couple of people and like, let's be careful how we use the word intel.

It describes a very specific personality and set of issues that this person is going through.

In speaking to the en cells, was there anything that surprised you with that.

I spent a lot of time on the message boards as well, trying to sort of get a feel, and there really is a wide ray of people who are in that sort of in cell categories.

There's young that are sort of angry.

There are older that are more I don't want to say content, but are more or sober about where they are in life.

And I wasn't really expecting for there to be such a wide array of personalities under the banner.

Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on insul forums?

The main in cell forums were way more vile and disgusting than I was expecting.

And I say that as somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and now is x and sees a lot of things on social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic.

The in cell platforms are, as far as I can tell, the worst of the worst.

At the same time, I was surprised that there were other communities of in cells on Facebook, Discord, in a couple other places that were way less racist and misogynistic than I was expecting.

I do think if you are somebody who is struggling with either in cell culture or insul life or self described in cell.

You can go sort of down two paths.

You can find people who collectively want to improve their lot in life, or you can go down the other path, which is burn it all down and just be angry.

But the websites, they are way more frightening than I was expecting.

You participated a lot in the episode where we talked about the importance of the algorithm.

Do you have any sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly how it's been proved over and over?

Twelve year old boys, as an example, can be easily fed this.

They don't need to go looking for this material, It goes looking for them.

The algorithms are really frightening across the board because, as we know with like it will force content on you that is going to get you upset.

It never forces content on you that will increase their mental sobriety.

And the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last couple of weeks after this project was if AI is the sort of next version of technology.

It's almost like you're going to supercharge these algorithms, and so like, what are we going to be pushed what types of answers to questions do we have If you look at where technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms for social media, it's hard not to be really scared about what AI is going to produce in our lives.

Because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms of what they're producing in the content for social media.

It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good, helpful content out of the AI algorithm.

Let's stop here for a break.

We'll be back in a moment.

Connor raises an important question about the potential of AI supercharging the push of the most harmful content to the most vulnerable users.

Stephanie picks it up from here.

Think about it.

You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable preteen teenage years.

So that's the target audience who has literally no context, no perspective of the outside world.

So I got to be honest.

Even as an adult who works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear some of the darkest, scariest things every single day.

It turns out I didn't know anything.

I didn't even know the basics, And thankfully, through the research here and this podcast, I feel like all of us are wiser, are smarter, and more informed.

Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the business model.

It changes the way you see the entire online ecosystem.

It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility and prevention.

What actions do we take, who do we turn to?

Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward.

How do we work with each other to better understand what our kids are doing, whether you have a preschooler or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending too much time online.

It's just information is power, and I think the spirit of this is to be proactive, and thankfully we're discussing it.

Honestly, we have to go to dark corners to really see what the answers are, and it's uncomfortable.

Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor, and little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere, and we're all impressionable.

The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having the information laid out in black and white.

And then also what sat with me the most was how, like you said, this is all kind of really these groups are happening everywhere in different forms starting small and coming at children.

It's an active thing that's really coming at the next generation in general.

The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody.

We're not looking to regurgitate and blame.

But it's really powerful stuff.

When you listen to a victim's mom and hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected.

It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids, and I think that's a spirit of all of this.

We are looking to be productive.

This has been a very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly proud of because it's not just one case.

This is everywhere, and it's not just about in cells anymore.

The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than I realized as a woman.

In my feed looks nothing like what young men are seeing, and I had little sense of just how popular these voices had become.

Here's investigative journalist and Katie's Studios producer Conor Powell.

The manisphere, I think, is to some extent, selling young men a Hollywood action film every single day.

It's Rambo, it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy.

This is what manhood is with no exceptions and really no qualifications, that this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe not all of manhood.

And it feels to me like if they're just selling up that two hour movie escapism, but they're selling that this is real life, and how confusing that can be for young men and even young women I guess as well.

I mean they see this stuff and think, oh, this is what a man is.

If you go down that path, you are only.

In a dated with that.

You're not being inundated by people who are strong and intellectually smart.

You're not seeing people who are athletes scholars as well.

You're just onto the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma, fast cars.

Right, that's the path you go down.

I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to the desert to have photo shoots.

They rent a Lamborghini and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like, we're going to take your picture and your life's going to be great.

It's almost like what you see having worked in like TV production.

You see music videos where these rappers or rock bands are on the set of their music video and there's weapons and there's sunglasses, and there's women and then they yell cut and all that gets taken away and you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician.

And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a music video for three minutes, and this is Andrew Tata selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only way to live.

Stephanie Way's in on what we learned about the manosphere, toxic masculinity, and how these forces shape the lives of young men today.

These are words that get tossed around so commonly, toxic masculinity, What does it mean to be a man?

What does it mean to be masculine?

These are things that we see in pop culture all of the time, but at its core, what.

Does it mean?

What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right now of young men who don't have a total clear vision of what that's supposed to look like.

We look at some of the influencers in this world and what they're tapping into is something very real, which is men want to feel masculine, they want to feel accepted, and the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed, and now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity, which again is becoming sort of this catchphrase, but what does that really mean?

And I think through this process, we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity, not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough.

That could also be the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel like this is the place for them to learn, it's not.

The place for them to learn is within the community of every life in person.

And I think sometimes the men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that, and that casheh is costing society a lot.

Let's stop here for another break.

We'll be back in a moment.

Stephanie Lai Dugger picks up with her thoughts on the self proclaimed king of the Manisphere and why, when there's such a lack of positive role models for young men, it's not at all surprising that his message finds a large audience.

Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one and this man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck.

So is he being charged incorrectly, or is he praying on young people who really lack a man in their lives, someone who really lacks someone to identify with.

Here's this guy saying, look at me, I have money, i have influence, I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape.

Women love me.

Listen to me.

You can see how intoxicating that might be.

But we got to remember kindness counts, and true wisdom comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in the world, and that being online endlessly for hours and hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been.

There's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard transition into the real world when your actual life feels like it's within your computer.

We've indoctrinated a generation to actually live their lives online, we've all had to, but imagine being a young person, and now we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no, you can't do that.

The real world is out there, even though it wasn't for so long.

So I think we need to give grace to this next generation and applaud them for navigating as best as possible, and.

Also give them the tools.

And I think we're all doing that together.

Which is why I think this particular project has affected us all so much.

Gabriel Cristio brings a different lens to all of this.

He's a producer on the series, but also a man in his early twenties, so basically he's living inside the very ecosystem we've been examining.

Here's Gabriel from my own personal beliefs.

I don't agree with the whole Andrew Tait persona and stick, but I came in thinking that that's what an intel was, those type of men.

That's exactly what I picture when I think Intel, and knowing that it's more or so part of the red pill community, speaking with a lot of self identifying black pillars and them telling me it's a lot of red Pill stuff.

Andrew Taite is not an inceel, I think is kind of what really drew that fine line in between these overlapping communities.

That was a major learning curve for me.

Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that surprised you?

What really surprised me is how serious this is taken.

I assume people were just trying to improve their health or work on themselves, you know, like you see online people changing routines or going to the gym after or a breakup to feel better.

But in the in cell community, looks Maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all, you know, It's about presenting a version of themselves for someone who may or may not even be there, and it's less about personal growth and more about trying to fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense of connection.

Connor Powell picks up the looks Maxing conversation and is followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Leidecker.

The looks maxine and the Transmaxing where two concepts and ideas that I just hadn't really stumbled across.

And I also just think it's sort of another data point of how disconnected people are in these communities, and young people in particular, and how all of these concepts from social media are just really destructive for relationships, really destructive for connection between human beings, and sometimes like part of life is talking to people, talking to your friends or family, and if your life is spent trying to achieve some sort of physical look so that it looks better on social media or tracks people, you can just see how that is really self destructive.

What I was struck by is the journalist the Portughu painted was you get sucked in a little bit in looks maxing because you're already a little bit insecure, and then you are just hammered by the world of the internet telling you your ugly.

It can make things so much worse.

It was sad, not just that you're ugly, but then you're sort of also not manly enough.

It's like you need to improve your looks, but you also need to tough enough because women only want an attractive, tough guy.

It's not just attacking the way you look, it's also attacking the way you act, the way you might feel about yourself.

For these people who are looking for some health and beauty tips, you know on the male side, they're almost immediately getting pounded with mental health crisis and image crisis.

This is unacceptable.

You must change.

You are not acceptable to society, You're not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.

Just so sad how the Internet at large.

You go there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself and look, and then two clicks in, you're having the Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous, and it's just it's such a bad mirror.

It's such an unrealistic mirror too.

So I don't know that I would have survived this time as a young person.

It was hard enough before we had computers.

You know, you lack identity.

You want to fit in, you want to be beautiful, you want to be handsome, you want to be accepted, you want the cool clothes, you want to be in shape, you want to have the cash.

Some of that's not completely realistic.

And I think acceptance of where we are as humans and sort of digging in a little deeper than how great our hair is is an important factor.

And listen, we used to say this even as young girls.

Oh all the magazines, Oh the Cosmo magazines, And now the Internet it's making us all feel so small, and yeah, it's hard to live up to that.

And I think what we're seeing now is that men who maybe young boys, who maybe weren't under that same pressure, are really under that same pressure.

And I don't know that I appreciated that quite as much.

I definitely did not realize how that had increased.

You talk about looks maxing, just the word alone, looks like you don't actually fit in the world unless your looks are maxed.

Think about that and like, the truth is that's inaccurate.

Suddenly it seems like it's not just a thing that's affecting young girls.

I think it is now even Stephen, and that is not something we want to be even Stephen about.

The level of equality that everyone's talking about is actually the complete opposite of what this is.

There is so much space in the world for goodness and kindness and bravery and courage and hard work and consistency and determination.

Those are the qualities that make for an extraordinary man.

We're relying on this generation of young men to lead us into this better day.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios.

In Cells is produced by Stephanie Laideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.

Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by Jeff Tooi music by Vanicore Studios.

In Cells is a production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts.

For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.