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Everybody, thanks for joining us.

John's not here today, So once again, I have a very very special program for us today.

Last week exactly when we could go today, Wards handed out its ten best Engines and Propulsion system trophies to deserving automakers for making engines and propulsion systems for evs that were most impressive.

So I have assembled a large percentage of the judges who made the determination about those Wards awards from Wards.

Easy for me to say, you have Christy Schweinsberg, Bob Gritzinger, Andrew Winner, so true, give us you're the vet here in terms of judging this.

Give us a quick synopsis of what the.

Awards are all about.

Well, it's a lot of It's about acknowledging, recognizing the engineers and designers and everybody else involved with developing engines and propulsion systems and you know, really giving them.

I mean when we started out thirty one years ago or whatever, that was a big part of it because the people, the people working behind the scenes, particularly on mechanical stuff, not the designers or whatever, they just never got any recognition.

So propulsion systems have become so important, you know, over the years that we've spent a lot of time with it and recognizing people and it's you know, been going on for a long time, and the people really appreciate it.

And yeah, that was the most gratifying part of the award ceremony we could go today.

All the thanks we got from the engineers who are in the trenches.

Ya, thank you for recognizing us and our teams and our hard work.

So that's that's fair.

So Christie, you managed this program.

What surprised you while you were working through this just how.

Good everything is.

You know, I've been you know, man, I managed this year, and I've been a judge for most of the past twenty years.

Programs for the past twenty years, and you know, every year there were one or two obvious non winners, and that's not the case anymore.

Everything is very close together.

When we tally our scores.

You know, there's there's really no one brand or automaker that isn't bringing their a game today.

I mean, whether you're talking about you know, internal combustion engines or hybrid power trains or you know, motor based propulsion systems for electrics, I mean, everything is just really top tier.

So it's it makes it very difficult to pick this ten.

So so Bob, in your experience with this, I mean, is every year sort of a reset that they're all very good engines or did some years seem to have a little bit better than other years.

It seems like in the history of the of the program there were propulsions engines that stayed on the list.

Drew can speak to this for seven, eight years.

Fourteen years vqur.

And so to your question, probably now it's more of a reset every year.

It seems like it's it's pretty rare for a propulsion system to carry over to win back to back years.

So we have a couple surprising winners this year that kind of carry on that tradition.

But in general, I mean, everything seems almost new every year, and and to Christy's point, really hard to differentiate.

Best from also ran.

Yeah, and that was that reminds me too, because in the early years, there was a lot of concern about because engines weren't being you know, having these massive technological changes you know, every year every few years.

I mean, so that's where we said, well, okay, we're going to have to allow some people to be multiple winners because there just aren't that many great engines being developed and the technology isn't changing that much.

And then man, I would say, when electrification started coming and there started becoming all this new technology, suddenly, yeah, there was completely new engines being redone, you know, very quickly.

So that made just the technological change is hard to keep up with.

Right, So this year there were twenty eight nominees on the list and going into it, you know that you have to come down to ten.

And so this was everything from the accurate EIGHTYX.

We'll start at the beginning of the alphabet, which was a one point five liter or two both charged four cylinder engine to the Volvo EX ninety electric propulsion system.

So we run the gamut there.

So there were straight up ice engines, eight, there were hybrids, ten there were evs.

So you know, that's that's where where they all came from.

And there had to be an assessment.

So it's not only an assessment of vehicle to vehicle or powertrain to power train, but it's sort of to be best in class because there are so many that are competitive with one another.

That had to be tough to work on.

I should confess that I was a judge too.

And you and you can tell you're you're trying to compare electric to electric to electric and and most people driving those would say, whoa great low end torque, you know from zero rpm and and everything is wonderful, you know, as I drive it around.

So we're trying to look at those really detailed differences.

Does it does.

It run out of gas, run out of electrons?

At speed?

What's it's miles per kilowatt hour?

I mean, it's efficiency and even recharging and those kinds of things go into it in terms of intangibles.

But it can be really hard to define and differentiate.

But it seems to me that that one thing that I think people might imagine, and I don't think this is the case that you could just do this on a spreadsheet, right you could just look at the numbers and say, oh, this truly has to be a winner.

But there's more to it than that that.

There's sort of the you know, how does this feel you know, fit into this product?

Yeah, of the application.

Yeah, we have an intangibles category where we always consider does this powertrain go with this vehicle?

You know, does this feel like a natural fit or does it feel right unnatural?

And we have technical relevance as well, where we're looking at you know, changes that have been made since maybe a prior generation engine or propulsion or you know, dual motor propulsion system or hybrid powertrain.

And the innovation has, as Drew said, has just been at a ferocious pace these especially like the last ten.

Years variable compression turbo, I mean, come on, yeah, well.

To this to this point of the changes in as as you all mentioned that there were two repeat winners, and so let's let's let's talk about the first one alphabetically, so it's not done any other way than that, the Ford F one fifty three point five liter turbo charge V six hybrid and and you know it, it surprised me that a vehicle or a propulsion system that won a previous year was on the list for this year.

And I suspect that it did go back you know when you were saying that in the olden days, things weren't changing all that often, so it made sense.

But you know, it is astonishing to me that here is a set up that is capable of winning twice in a row against some very very stiff competitors.

So so, Bob, you know, I know you like that a lot that that.

And and I'll admit I'm I'm a truck guy, always have been.

I enjoy what these engineers do with these trucks.

And truck guys are V eight guys and Ford truck guys are buying this powertrain for efficiency and uh and for capability.

It's as powerful as a V eight more so, I mean.

Yeah, four hundred and thirty horse power, five hundred and seventy pounds feet and rated twenty two twenty four city highway for.

All size pickup was a towing down the road.

Don't have that here, but it was.

It was pretty significant.

I think it's like the highest towing capacity to eight hundred or something.

It's it's uh so, really impressive and also very.

Functional for the vehicle.

You don't notice that you're driving a hybrid now.

The transitions are seamless between Conston Electric.

Stop start, you'd never know what's happening.

Well, And the thing is too, it wasn't that long ago that hybrids were considered these wimpy cars, you know, or whatever, or vehicles, and now these hybrids are really strong and.

They're adding power, I mean, fuel equality.

Is filling in all of those low torque gaps from the from the engine.

So yeah.

So the other repeat winner was the Honda Civic Hybrid two lead four cylinder hybrid and hybrid.

Yeah.

Yeah, so actually it was a three time winner because we had it in the Accord in twenty twenty three, a little bit different configuration versus the Civic.

Yeah.

So when Civic in twenty four and twenty five, I can't think of a single powertrain on the market that gives you so much for so little.

You know, you've got you know, great power, incredible fuel economy.

We were gaining around fifty miles per gallon.

Not trying just got trying.

Hyper miling, you know, we were just driving as normal.

And although we tested it in one of the higher trim levels of the Civic, the sport touring hatchback for forty you can get a Civic Hybrid this powertrain in a Civic for close to thirty which is astonishing when you consider the average price of a new vehicle now in the United States is fifty thousand dollars.

It just it's like the full package.

Yeah, it's it's fantastic.

And when you talk about the performance, the driving performance, I mean, at the end of the day, this is just a normal Civic.

This is not the you know, type R Civic.

I mean, this is so so it's it's it.

Has impressive numbers that come close to that two hundred horsepower to pound fee.

The highest most powerful non.

Type type are Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so you're getting right, so performance car with incredible fuel economy.

Yeah yeah, but I think there needs to be a little asterisk by that performance car because we'll get to some others here that that truly have some like holy crap.

Number highly affordable performance let's put it that way.

Yeah, for going to costco, for going anywhere.

Yeah.

So all right, So, I mean, now, one of the things that I do find that interesting is is that in both cases of the Ford and the Honda, those were the only trains that were on they were returning winners.

But these companies didn't have anything else.

So do you think there's something about that that they really when they developed these power trains, they really zeroed in on we're going to make this the best, perfect for the longest time we possibly can.

Yeah, well, they do tweak them, you know, year after year.

There are the the f one fifty.

In that case, they moved the the starter.

They had a belt starter generator and they moved it to the transmission.

That sounds right, Yeah, you have to forgive us.

We drove these in July and August.

Our memories are a little funny.

So that's right away of technical innovation.

They saw something and said, we can make this better, and here's how.

Yeah.

All right, So, as I mentioned, there are some that were really really performance oriented, which we'll go back to the beginning of the alphabet.

The bmw M five four point four Leader Chubot charge V eight plug in hybrid that has total system output of seven hundred and seventeen horse power.

I mean it's just like that that it's just crazy.

And that's not even our highest horsepower in the But it's an incredible powertrain obviously, you know, incredible performance.

You know, on paper, it's impressive, and yes, we confirmed by driving absolutely impressive in the real world as well.

And again though with the fuel economy, we were getting twenty five twenty seven seven miles per gallen.

This is a heavy vehicle.

This is the weight of a full size pickup truck.

It's like five one thousand pounds feet curb weights or pounds of curb weight.

You know, this is this is kind of a brick and to get that kind of fuel economy with this kind of performance is really extraordinary.

And lots of different modes and everything is all sorts of things that you can do with the with the power it's efficiency or it's.

True to m you know it can it can wear that M five badge and and be true to that.

And again that goes with that intangible that we look at.

Does this does this powertrain sell this vehicle?

And if you can go Autobahn speed.

One moment and then motor into Stuttgart at on electric power you know for fifty or what was it thirty five some miles.

On the battery alone.

Yeah, right, So this race is a question in general, not just about this, but I mean, is it your impression that going forward that whether we're talking about an m from BMW or we're talking daily driver Honda Civic that electrification is going to be part of all powertrains going forward, or at least a larger percentage of them than ever before.

Yeah, to me, you're not really giving anything up.

And now that the premium has shrunk.

You know, it used to be thousands of dollars more for the hybrid if there were you know, a standard ICEE and then a hybrid powertrain, thousands of dollars and now it's down to hundreds.

And you've got Toyota, which granted, you know, it's a unique situation because they're the pioneer and they're the volume seller, but they've got about what like ten vehicles now in the US market where you can only get a hybrid powertrain, right, I see it as and I hazard to guess that most Americans are probably doing more stop and go driving than long distance highway driving, and it's perfect for that situation.

That's where you save the most fuel, get your best fuel economy.

And yeah, then there's this aspect that when you put an electric motor with the gasoline engine, you're you're increasing the performance credentials.

So I think it's great.

I mean, so so the point of the of the BMW engine, I mean, if just the engine alone is a mirror five and seventy seven.

More right, and fourteen miles per gallon.

So then you throw in the electric motor and you get up to seven seventeen.

So you know it, you know, so as you're saying, Bob that it's able to have that badge, you know with no question that it deserves.

It, can can do, can do it at all.

And you know, I guess the only downside is, you know, people's concern about battery life and replacement of the battery.

Yeah, we've got a lot of real road examples, a.

Lot of real world now where you.

Know, it's not a big deal.

They owed a hybrid.

Now they're not using lithium I end necessarily, but you know they're they're seeing hundreds of thousands of yeah, seventeen years.

And New York City where.

Your twelve old battery is going to have to be replaced long long for that, you know what I mean exactly?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So so you know, in that sense, you can now probably you can rely on a a hybrid with a lithium battery or a plug in to last.

You know, these things are warrantyed minimum for ten years, it seems like generally, so you know, you're not you're not taking much of a chance to get a substantial benefit.

All Right, So now we're going to move on to what is arguably the craziest item on the list, the Corvette z R one.

Crazy relative this year.

Okay, sixty four horse power from this internal combustion engine, I mean non electrified just there.

Yeah.

The electric with this is the twelve olt pattern.

Yeah that's basically it lights.

Yeah, but it's yeah, insane amount of power.

This is what happens when engineers are allowed to you know, raise the bar, well, take the bar and throw it out the window.

Because this this car builds on the flat plane crank five to five V eight and adds twin turbo, was a whole lot of fuel system delivery changes, unique turbos, some of the biggest in the business, and creating the highest what is it, the highest most powerful.

Model maker produced V eight ever.

And it's based on still like an architecture that was made in like nineteen fifty five or something.

Oh yeah, some were some were smiling.

And this is another case of how you completely you know, you can take an engine and just evolve it and evolve it, you know, to just do amazing things.

Yeah, and I thought so.

We actually did have a zoom call with many of the engineers who worked on the program, and you know, to your point, Drew that they may be the unsung heroes, but boy, these guys were really excited about having had the opportunity to work on this engine and working in.

The toy store basically.

Yeah, and they're working on the next one, you know what I mean.

It's just like, you know, we'll we'll see you guys again.

You know what I mean.

When we had the electric motor to the front axle, we do the Z one X.

We'll see you next year.

Yeah.

So that that's so.

And this this was three years in a row for Corvette power train, going back to the five five plane, the z O six and then the E Ray last year and then this, Uh, it's astounding technology, Harry.

We got a question from one of our viewers, Verry Rector asked, does this engine put Corvette and the super cart?

Well, it's so so me.

I got to repeat the question for sorry, because they can hear Sean, they can't the very Rector wants to know if this engine quits Corvette into the supercar category.

In my mind, yeah, a performance performance in terms of performance, but also uh, it's a two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars list for a Corvette.

Corvettes have always been the affordable supercar.

Some you know, I mean compared to McLaren or some of these other things that you cost a million dollars.

And they've always matched up.

Well, Now you have something that can blow them away.

But also is priced up there.

Yeah, so you wouldn't be ashamed to bring this to the Nerberg Ring.

Oh no, I've got There've been there, and you know Mark Royce drove it two hundred and thirty three miles an hour.

I mean he's relatively capable, but not a race driver.

So yeah, okay, so we're gonna move from the Corvette to something that was completely all new inside, outside, all around.

The Dodge Charger Daytona.

Yeah, this is the the electric version, not the now they've added the Hurricane engine to that, but this.

Yeah, so I figured out.

I mean, it's it's been pretty controversial, but it's it's it's really it's a fascinating engine and drive train and I think I have to add a little bit of background first.

In twenty twenty one, Tesla introduced their plaid car over a thousand horsepower, three electric motors, and it was faster than everything there was.

He started seeing all these YouTube videos and everything, all this trash talk coming from the Tesla ROTI blowing away all these muscle cars on you know, quarter mile, and so then there was a whole thing of like, oh Jesus, just you know, especially at that time that you know, ice engines were done, Detroit was done.

I mean, they're just all these dinosaurs.

They can't you know, we can beat them at everything.

And after talking to some of the engineers and everything else, I started figuring out, hey, you know, they put tons of effort into this electric muscle car, and they weren't doing it to make money.

They were doing it to defend their brand.

And they want to say, look, we make muscle cars.

Tesla doesn't make muscle cars.

And so they came across with this thing that, yeah, six hundred and seventy horse power, it had you know, motors and both assles, which was really a key part to the Tesla.

Tesla was really blown away because it had all wheel drive, and all the other muscle cars were real wheel drive.

That was part of the room.

But they made this car, you know, not only was it just something that you know, could keep up, but also something could do donuts, burnouts, you know, and I could be some really loud with a really convincing engine, which I thought, you know, I was one of them that I would have loved to have heard that be a fly in the room when somebody when they're talking about this car and they said, how are we going to make it sound like a real muscle car, And you know, they said, hey, we know somebody can do that.

You know, the pipe organ cup pipe organs, Yeah, really just speakers not just internal to the to the cabin, but external and noticeable.

Yeah.

So I just thought this whole picture of you know, this idea that Detroit was still full of these people that just wanted to make ice engines and everything.

I thought it was just a really creative idea, and it was they really.

They executed executed.

Of course, we did just establish that Detroit does want to make ice engines with that Corvette.

Yeah, so they do, but they can play in the all electric realm.

The point is, though, Testa only makes electric vehicles, Okay, Detroit can make them both, you know, So that was just I just really enjoyed learning about the car and talking to the engineers and everything else.

That it was really a cool day and.

You loved it.

Yeah, you loved it.

Yeah.

All right.

Now another electric vehicle, but not a performance vehicle, the Handai Ionic nine.

Well, well kind of is so you expressed when Gary started judging, expressed concern that people are going to be getting into evs and gain an accidents because of the power that is inherent in these electric right, and this is I mean, I don't think it's going to be that serious, but this is kind of an example where you're buying what is essentially a family vehicle, but you're getting horsepower and torque that ten or fifteen years ago would have been considered ludicrous or insane.

You know, it would have been like corvette like output.

So the Ionic nine total system, it's a dual motor propulsion system.

It's four or twenty two horse par five hundred and sixteen pound feet of torque.

Perfect family vehicle.

And the three row crossover that is going to shepherd the kids to you know, soccer practice, and home.

Yeah, we had the we had the top trimlevel, we had the performance all we'll drive grades, So we did have the maximum output propulsion system with this vehicle.

But yeah, I mean, and not only was the power fantastic, but we were getting great We were getting three miles per kil a lot hour, which is kind of like the baseline that you want to get in a in a EV.

And this is a three row it's family vehicle.

Yeah, that you don't associate with efficiency per se.

And I think in my profile of the story, all these power trains were profiled by the Way and Wards auto dot com.

If you go under ten best you can read about each one that this has more horsepower and a lot more torque than the tau V eight in the first generation Hyundai Genesis, which again was back then considered ludicrous output.

And here it is.

Christie, only you and I remember that engine.

Son, Yes, Okay, another hybrid the Lexus LX seven h H it's three point four leader turbocharged V six.

Now it's interesting.

This is the first application of a hybrid in the Lexus flagship that is meant to be able to go places where Lexus are never going to go.

I mean it's just yeah, you're not going to get stuck on a mountain with one of these, but you're probably never going to be on a mountain with one of these.

Well, they do so a lot in the Middle East for what they they've told us so, but certainly in the United States that's more of a country club vehicle.

But still, you know, incredible performance.

Again, kind of like moderate considering some of our other winners, but four and fifty seven horsepower, five and three pound feet of torque, and we were getting it's rated nineteen twenty two city highway.

We were gaining twenty pretty solid twenty miles per gallon combined with our testing, and again kind of unexpected you know power.

I mean, it is a big suv versus being a crossover.

But yeah, there are frame rails involved.

Exactly exactly yeah, but and again smooth transition.

I think we could say that of all of our hybrids this year, from gas to electric and vice versa, you just don't notice it like you used to.

So now another all ev the lucid gravity.

They're more affordable, yeah chuckle, chuckle, Yeah, well compared to an air but right.

Yeah, so this is the new Lucid SUV.

They've had the air and we actually awarded this dual motor propulsion system was in the air, is in the air, and we awarded it in twenty two and twenty three, and this year we brought it back we in the gravity in the grave.

They brought it back in the gravity.

They brought it in the gravity and we and we really loved the application.

And so this is one of the more ludicrous performers.

Eight and twenty eight horsepower, nine and nine pound feet of torque.

Yeah, what were the modes?

Swift, sprint, I can't remember them all.

It's like slow sprint and swift or something.

When you go into the max.

It snaps your neck.

Yeah, you get some whiplash.

That's an example of a different it's feeling from it from an EV, you know what I mean.

That was just crazy.

I mean you just touched the pedal and that I think it was a sprint mode.

But still still pretty efficient.

So pretty efficient.

We were near three.

We had the bigger We had the three row model.

It comes in a five passenger seven passengers for the three row, so did have little more weight.

We had the bigger wheels, but we got like two point eight I think miles per kilowatter, which is.

Just low for Loocid.

Lucid is a.

Low for Lucid.

It's a taller vehicle than the than the air obviously, it's.

It's they couldn't do all the tricks.

Yeah, but Lucid also does some things too that I think is important in terms of they're really good at aerodynamics.

They're also really good at the motor motor designs, and they're they're always doing a lot of innovations that really probably only engineers appreciate, but but they're doing a lot of interesting stuff still.

Yeah.

So, so we had an m from BMW.

So we have an AMG from Mercedes, the E fifty three three leaders turbo charged I six plug in hybrid.

Right, so midsidan over six hundred horse power combined with it with the electric you know, and I thought it was really interesting.

I briefly had a plug in hybrid for a while and I got sold on it.

Really.

How if you can just plug the thing into your garage, uh and really not have to go to the charging station or the gas station very much?

Is I think that's really.

It didn't require a big investment in uh high level charging in your garage.

You just plugging in, yeah, to your to your regular So.

So, Bob, Bob, tell me about the performance of this vehicle though, how did you like it?

I mean, did you the Mercedes compared to the bm I mean the BMW we we were talking about there.

But this is, this is, this is you know, true to an AMG for certain uh plenty plenty of power, but also with a really good plugin range right.

Right, like fifty miles.

I want to say, I'm.

Not on the log sheet here, but we were getting great.

We were getting fifty five miles per gallon.

That was me.

Yeah, seventy percent of my miles were electric.

I got fifty four point fifty five point four mpg.

And some other thing at eighty some miles an hour.

No, you that's illegal.

I want all of our I want all of our viewers to know.

Yeah, traffical.

Yeah, theoretically, so theoretically according to according to Mercedes.

Yeah yeah.

So all right, so we're gonna come to the final one.

And this I think is in some ways a revelation the Nissan Leaf, the new Nissan Leaf.

EV Yeah, single motor propulsion system and you know, again were our minds are kind of warped out by all these really powerful engines and propulsion systems that we forget that two hundred and sixty one pound feet.

You know, when we were awarding the Nissan VQ back in the in the nineties and early you know, two thousands, that was what the output was, you know, it was, this is two hundred fourteen horseper two urns sixty one pound feet.

And here it is in a single motor, not a dual motor, single motor propulsion system.

And we were getting like nearly four miles per kilowatt hour in our in our test driving.

And the price point for this, for this propulsion system in this vehicle between thirty and forty thousand dollars.

It's extraordinary, you know, And I think that's that's the thing that you know, I think people should take away from this list that you know, we go from vehicles that cost well over one hundred thousand bucks to cars like the Leaf in the Civic, which are amazing in terms of the performance they're providing.

Absolutely, and yet you know, you don't have to sell a kidney to get one, right, I mean.

And that's important.

We've always wanted attainable.

You know, we used to have a price cap, I forget what it was that yeah, yeah, yeah, and then we lifted the price cap, but we still always are mindful to have engines that and power trains rather that are within reach of the average middle class car buyer in the United States.

That price cap had to go with electrics because of you know, yeah.

The early ones were so much more expensive.

Well that and trying to effector in Yeah.

That's another thing is you know, most taxation systems are are in sort of luxury and premium mass market models, and it is kind of a rarity these days to find something under fifty thousand dollars.

So the leaf is, yeah, it's just an extraordinary deal.

All right.

We went over the thirty minutes that we were supposed to devote to this, and we are now going to take a quick break and hear from our sponsors, which we greatly appreciate having sponsors.

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Okay, and we are back.

So, guys, last on last week's show, we talked about Carlos Tavars.

You weren't here last week, gotous that was not and he was making a suggestion that perhaps it's possible that Stilantis would break up, whereby there would be the American operation and then something else that would be different in Europe.

So now Tavares has come out and said that there is a distinct possibility in his mind anyway that quote, I'll quote him.

We can't rule out at some point he'll meaning Elon Musk, will decide to leave the automotive industry to refocus on humanoid robots, SpaceX or artificial intelligence.

Elon Musk will have left the auto industry now he's talking about maybe within a decade.

Okay, So is Carlos Tavarus just trying to generate interest in Carlos Tavars or does he have a point here?

I think both.

If you look at the history of Chrysler and Daimler and I mean all these the whole history, there's been not a lot of stability over a long time.

I'm amazed that Tesla has survived this long with the bar ranging different things that Musk has been into.

I mean, you mentioned, uh Grockipedia, right, Yeah.

I just, first of all, I'm one of the millions of Robert heinleind fans who, you know, just cringe that someone has taken this word and applied it in all these different ways.

And and part of the definition of it is empathy, which doesn't exist in the Musk empire as far as I can tell, So who knows where it goes.

I think he's not really saying anything new.

I think Wall Street has been realizing that, you know, running an auto business is high risk and low reward.

You know, Basically, it's.

A lot of money reward he's talking about.

He wants to he wants to deal for a trillion dollars.

I'm just talking about the Tesla aspect.

But definitely I think he is more concerned with Yes, SpaceX and all these other ventures than Tesla.

So to see him go from Tesla would not be surprising, except he does have a very prideful person, it seems, so you know that, go keep him around.

So tomorrow said quote, Tesla's stock market value loss will be colossal because this valuation is simply stratospheric.

And he's referring to what would happen if Musk were to leave the company.

Now, several Yale researchers came out with a report this week which talked about how Elon Musk's quote polarizing and partisan actions have impacted Tesla vehicle sales in the United States, and the researchers discovered quote, without the Musk partisan effect, Tesla sales between October twenty twenty two in April twenty twenty five would have been sixty seven to eighty three percent higher, or equivalent to one to one point six million more vehicles.

So it's in the US think about Europe as well, you know.

So how that isn't it very much like Henry Ford the first where you know, he was a genius and built this huge thing with Ford and the Model T and everything else, and then he just could not evolve more.

I mean, he wouldn't he he wouldn't change the design and sales fell off.

Cadillac and all General Motors came in with a good styling, and and I think and he's and I think he's talked a lot about just not wanting to spend The exterior designs of all the tests are starting to look stale.

Right.

They did do the change for the Model Why this year, but yeah, they've been pretty static and sort of the physical elements, choosing to focus on the digital elements.

But there's also the Chinese that are coming in with the well, they've come in with battery electric vehicles and they're you can do it.

In great exterior design design.

And at a lower cost as well, a lower price.

I think Must just has to be this tech guy, you know, he just doesn't think of aesthetics and things like that, and it's too hard.

He wants to move on to other stuff, maybe because it was win one when when Henry Ford came in after World War Two, he was the one that finally started putting modern styling.

Yeah yeah, right, So with the thirty nine Ford or whatever started suddenly when they got better design and realized that the public it meant a lot to car buyers and stuff like that, things changed.

So, I mean, I think he's not Musk, isn't a car guy, so maybe he shouldn't he should get away from the business.

Yeah, we'll see how that works out for the company.

So again, earlier this week, in Vidia had one of their big conferences, their gt GtC conferences, and I think if people were to go back in the autoline after Hours Archives, we had in Vidia's Danny Shapiro on the show on several occasions, and now they're like the five trillion dollar company.

I mean, in video has just blown up.

And I think it's because of Danny being on the show.

But yeah, Sean's agreeing with me.

Least it'll only be two and a half trillion if he had only been on a month.

So in Vidia announced a partnership with Uber and they're going to be developing what they claim will be the world's largest Level four ready mobility network.

So basically what we're talking about here is a self driving vehicle that would be within a geo fence of some sort, so not Level five, which is drive anywhere you want to go.

And so they are planning on having a fleet starting in twenty twenty seven that they're going to be growing.

So some have reported that it'd be one hundred twenty s.

No, they're going to start in twenty twenty seven using this new technology that in Nvidia has developed, and Stilantis is working with Nvidia on Level four technology.

Interesting Stillant is working with fox Con, which makes iPhones, to do hardware for their and systems integration for what they're coming up with using Nvidia.

The aforementioned Lucid is working with Nvidia for its upcoming models.

Mercedes Benz is testing with Nvidia for what they''ll be bringing the party, and oh, in trucking there's Aurora Volvo on it goes Okay, Now, do you think maybe what's happened is that Nvidia's gotten to the point where they're going to be able to just basically sell kits to automakers that automakers would then be able to plug into their vehicles in voilas have level four systems.

Well, that's the dream we've been told right that it's it's going to be plug and play.

In reality, I think it will be much tougher because aerodynamics and weight distribution and powertrain differences and you know there there there will be well testing and some you.

Know, you just will calibrate it.

And I don't know about that.

We've heard these proclamations so many times now about you know, now we're going to have advanced davies have a stroke.

Over with them within geo fence with areas.

I can see that, But but then what is that uber from your parking lot to your plan.

Of geo fence.

In a small uh mobile home in in one of the communities in Florida retirement and i'll retirement community.

They already have their golf carts through.

Carry you.

Well, it's I started following Nvidia and autonomous cars like ten years ago, you know, And and it was back then with autonomous cars, it was they called it the trolley question or whatever, the trolley car question, because they figured you had to have an autonomous car that could pick because if it was going to crash into a school bus with kids or just run down a couple of people.

You had to have the car to be smart enough not to do that.

And I remember talking to Nvidia asking him that he just kind of went those kind of accidents usually happened when somebody's distracted, or they're drunk, or they're having a stroke, you know.

I mean, that's not really the real problem.

And so I think they from the baseline, I think Nvidia knows, you know, how to make great autonomous cars.

But the other issue is how do you deal with everybody else dealing with the car?

You know, because I actually did some interviews with some cultural anthropologists and stuff who worked with Nissan and some of the other companies where you know, you have to have the car somehow when it's stopped at a crosswalk, you know, people have to know does it see me, you know?

Or how would does the car deal with road rage and all the other things that are going on that I'm not sure are going to be easy for them to solve.

So I mean, they'll if anybody can do it.

I think they can do it, but it's I don't think it's going.

To be well.

I Mean, the thing that I wonder about is that Okay, you know, you see you know, let's let's take for example, General Motors, which you know is putting a lot of effort into its supercrew system, right, and I'm just wondering whether Nvidia might not just be able to come out with something they go like, you're by this, it's you know, it'll be it'll be Level four.

It could happen.

I mean, we saw in the case of electric vehicles.

You know, Nissan did a joint venture for batteries and then I forget the company, but they were usurped by the batteries that LG was giving General Motors and then they were stuck with this plant, with this joint venture park, you know, so it could it could totally happen with with av's as well.

I wonder how this plays with Mercedes.

You know, they did that whole route in Germany where the what was it sixty two miles or something one hundred and sixty two miles.

The vehicle went autonomously with yes, somebody monitoring what it was doing, but it completed the route.

They seemed to have, you know, starting with Dystronic and Dystronic Plus and their systems, they seem to be well on the road to developing what they need.

So now they want to buy something off the shelf that suppliants all of the work they've been doing or does it build on that.

Well, I think in the case of like what you know Mercedes is doing or what Lucid is doing, is is they're basically you know, buying the stuff in working with in Vidia to do this, so it would be in concert with them.

But I just get back to the whole question of whether or not you know, it might not be a package at some point.

Yeah, like Apple Car Play, I.

Mean, what are the sensors?

You get the you know what you need and then boom they provide the brain.

I mean even General Motors is working with Nvidia on its new electrial architecture that's going to be you know, in Vidia four chips are going to be on the inside of those things.

But will they want to keep it in their cars now?

You know, will they want.

To have the ownership of that or would they just you know, I'm just thinking about Apple car playing those in Google now, I mean they don't want they used it.

Now what they're trying to get totally of it, get rid of it.

So I knew you were going to want to talk about av so I did a little research and there was some some study presented I think at the Munich show in September, and prognosticators are saying, really, for the next ten years still, we're going to have mostly level two and level two plus systems in market.

So it's not the year of autonomy.

Sorry too, John's not here, so I can say it's not the year of autonomy.

We'll have fuel cells before we'll have autonomous I don't know about that.

Yeah, a lot a lot to still work out from.

What I can tell, when they encounter when they fix one problem, they create one or two more in terms of like the systems that are in market now and some of the issues that people have been encountering while they're driving and you know, mistaking something for you know, something that should make it stop and then the vehicle just stops when there's actually no obstacle, and then they try to fix it and then.

It create you know, yeah, and we'll see you know, five trillion dollar company and with chips in all these companies, you know, at some point this becomes an anti trust thing.

Well, QUALMM has systems a little differently, so they can they can do it?

But okay, so so I want to ask you.

So we talked the first half of.

The show or first two thirds of the show about powertrains.

Okay.

One of the things that also occurs to me is that, Okay, if you if you have an autonomous vehicle, what difference is a powertrain going to make?

I mean, because it's you're going to be driven.

You're not driving, right, if you're in a level four vehicle, you're being driven.

Yeah, you want it to be really smooth, for sure.

So I've been I've been reading about or seeing how I guess people who are doing scripted content TV shows, movies are having to dumb down the plot because people are scrolling while they're watching.

So in an autonomous vehicle, everybody's going to be scrolling.

And yeah, yeah, maybe we'll have to dumb down the powertrain.

But also, if we exist in this in this promised land of avs where you've got V to V and V to X and the sort of like perfectly choreographed situation, are you ever going to have to is your vehicle ever going to have to accelerate hard?

You know?

Yeah, it's like you really want it to be a smooth launch and the smooth step.

Yeah.

Well, one of the only real significant differences would be cold weather climates, and you know, you would need all wheel drive electric versus you know, right.

You would think there'd also be a mode where you could take over as a drive, but.

That would you know, but if you're building a car and it's gonna be level four, why would you put in the steering wheel on the pedals?

Right?

Well?

Extra costs again if you slide off into a ditch or whatever, or or all these again they sent to get on.

Your phone to get They're going to send you another one.

We gotta slide off.

Yeah, but but then, like again, are you even going to notice?

You know, if you're just like mindlessly scroll watching a movie and they.

Don't seem to be going anywhere.

Yeah, I could see that if you're in China or in the you know, California and the expressway cruising around or whatever.

But you know, and I want to go Highway one in California in an autonomous car.

You get to watch the scenery.

Yeah great, all right now I'm done.

I'm too old fashioned.

So you want to drive, that's what you're saying.

You want to drive and that's what I'll be left point the.

BMW drivers, Well, it'll be we'll be listening to Sammy Hagar and driving people who can afford and want to drive.

Will I think until it's outlawed.

Exactly, you know, and then let's just go to.

Cars will be out.

I think they're gonna that's gonna that's gonna happen.

Right, they're gonna put cars into the second Amendment, and.

Well it'll be what are we up to now twenty three, it'll be the seventh.

So we we we sort of saw this coming, but it still is somewhat surprising, I think.

So General Motors is basically going to be putting hundreds and hundreds of people on hiatus at its famous Factory Zero plant where it builds only electric vehicles, only high priced electric.

Well, yeah, that's it.

That's a better way of putting it, Christie, a high priced electric glass team.

Is it built there?

No, it's it's the IQ as Glade IQ, the Humber ev.

All six figure vehicles.

Yeah, it's a really big And then.

A knocked on to that is that they're going to be laying off people at their Ultium joint venture Battery plants, and so, okay, is this just a temporary phenomenon that is predicated on the interest in EV's immediately declining because of the seventy five hundred dollars tax credit.

I mean, I don't think any of these vehicles qualified for a seventy five hundred dollars tax credit because they were too expensive, but the leasing loophole, loophole would have gotten them that.

But I mean, so, is this just like the first shooting drop?

I mean it putting only high priced vehicles in one plant was a bad strategy.

You know, they should have had it more balanced, because we can see with the Equinox EV they're doing fantastic.

You know, if you price a vehicle right and it has the right specs three hundred miles of range, people are gonna want it.

They're gonna want to buy it greatly.

Steal on that right now.

I think, actually, you can get an Equinox EV for less if you lease, then you could get a nice Equinox.

I have to admit, like I thought that this was a winning strategy to replicate you know, put dual motor propulsion or propulsion systems in every segment of vehicle, because you know before you know, ten fifteen years ago, we had all these like compact car ev isn't nobody wanted them, right, But I think the sweet spot is that sort of compact mid sized crossover and yeah, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Don't your high price TVs in a single plant, because it's that's yeah, that was a bad recipe.

I'm not sure if even if they qualified, a seventy five dollars tax break or or tax break impacts someone who can afford those vehicles.

So something else is happening here.

It feels like like the market is moving away or slowing down in ways that we're not you know, we're not aware of.

It could be you know, when a thousand engineers or people like that lose their jobs, that has a ripple effect throughout the industry.

And and you know it may not they'll apply.

But when GM sneezes, right, the country gets a cold, so let's see where it goes.

So we missed this.

So it was actually announced in September, So I apologize for us being charty in this, but I was surprised to see that Bosh German Company announced that it is going to be departing with thirteen thousand people as it works to save two point nine billion dollars.

And although Bosh is and everything from you know.

It's global, right or global, Yeah yeah, and you.

Know, and they make dishwashers and they make you know, tools and so on.

But I mean, but their big loss was in their mobility sector.

And so you know, people are you know, losing jobs at OEMs and now people are losing jobs in a big way at suppliers.

I means, is this industry perhaps not the industry people want to be in if they're looking for a future.

You know, John always talks is not here, but i'll lean out one of his talking points.

There's three million units lost in Europe of new light vehicle sales from before COVID to now, and there's no indication they're going to come back.

I'd imagine Bosch's business is still a little bit more weighted toward European automakers versus other regions.

But here in the US we're stagnant.

You know, most countries and regions have hit peak auto.

You know, there's no forecast out there that says, all of a sudden, you know, Americans are going to start buying a bunch more new vehicles.

And it's obvious why because when you're you know, the average price of a new vehicle in the United States is fifty thousand dollars, You're going to leave a lot of people on the sidelines.

So the industry has I think some dark days ahead unfortunately shrinking.

All right, so we we're gonna wrap this.

I want to wrap this on something that's happier than that.

Okay, so you know this fift.

Poll when okay, okay, candy go ahead.

So so I was so I've been I've been skeptical of Slate, but I'm now becoming less skeptical of Slate with their idea of having a electric truck basic in the mid twenties that people can buy.

And they announced this week that basically that they're going to be super charger capable, and what I thought was was very fascinating.

And I want to get this right because I have this here somewhere, of course I do, and I'm not going to find it quickly enough that they're they're going to be.

They're announcing service through a network repair pal certified shops, and so these are basically in lieu of having dealerships.

You'll go to one of these places, which you can find online.

I looked in my area and there are several these shops.

Of course I eat.

These don't need that much service anyway.

Yeah, and but I mean, isn't this a clever idea that you can sell and affordable?

Absolutely?

Mm hmmm.

Do you want to be.

Well, there are certainly people that just want some mobility.

Not every uh.

All these things are being added that you know, will prevent you from being in a crash, will tell you how to get from point A to point B.

Will your phone can do that?

Yeah, all these things and you know, uh, hell a crank window is not a bad thing.

Well, I take one of.

Those people what they are?

Can you give those little vent wings that'd be nice?

Can we get that back window?

Yeah?

Right, Well, the most popular car in Europe is from that.

They have what's the name, it's it's a dutcha gotcha.

Yeah.

They have an instrument panel where you can just plug your phone and then it connects with all your you know, it's your whole infotainment system and navigation system.

And it's like the cheapest car in Europe and it's also the most popular you know, and so GM doesn't like that.

No, well, no one, none of the automakers don't like that.

But I mean it's it'll be really interesting to see how well they do.

Because there's this this whole world needs lower priced cars.

So the future is affordability, and.

We've got two great powertrains, UH.

Are way more affordable.

So so so Christy is just selling this this ten best engines.

You will note, I want to positive so it will be the Civic Hybrid and the Leaf a Leaf.

Yeah, you don't need to spend a lot to get a great power.

Trains, right, all right, So with that we will end the show because Christy just had a direction for all of you get a Civic or a Leaf.

Right.

I don't know if i'd say that, but you probably don't need as much vehicle as you think you do.

And again you can read up on all of them, yes, on Board's Auto.

That's right.

All right, man, this is getting shameless here.

Yeah, it is like does.

Anybody have a book to sell.

Now that you mentioned it?

All right, Christy Schweinsberg, Bob Gritzinger, Drew Winner, we want to thank you guys.

He's scary and they say so and we want to thank all of you for watching, and we'll be back next week.

These guys won't be, but we'll have someone else for you.

Thank you.

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