Welcome to the Alaska Uncovered Podcast with me, your host, Jennie Thwing Flaming, my occasional co-host and full-time husband, Jay, and I bring you accurate, helpful, and entertaining information about Alaska Travel and life in Alaska.



 

Hi everyone. Today I am bringing you an episode that Jay and I recorded in June of 2024 for our Patreon only subscribers. And now, as you know, we don't have. These, any of these regular episodes in the main feed behind a paywall, we now have the Alaska Planning Club on Patreon. And so people ask their questions, and that's what the episode is every single week.

So I would love to have you join us over there. It's patreon.com/alaska uncovered, or you can just search for Alaska uncovered on Patreon. Or follow the link in the show notes and it's pretty fun. It's $9 a month and you can cancel anytime, no questions asked. It's pretty great. Now and then we're gonna be bringing up some of the episodes Jay and I recorded in 2024 for Patreon onto the main feed.

And since avoiding crowds is such a big topic and in the last year and a half. It's definitely gotten more, not less. So this is all still really good advice. Enjoy the episode.

I think we are ready to dive into the meat of our episode today, which is all about avoiding crowds. Speaking of questions, man, that is one that I get a lot hear, so hear you. Let's dive into that, Jay.

Hear, you know, I, uh, I hear you, uh, talking to your, your clients quite a bit, uh, of when you're on Zoom with them, and I hear you answering this question a lot. Yeah. So what do you want to talk about it today? I think, well, first of all, one thing that I'll just mention that you have to work through in your own head, and no one can really do this for you, is if you are holding the, I need to see the same places that everyone else sees with, I need to avoid crowds.

Those things don't go together. Correct. So there are certainly places that are crowded and 100%, uh, worth it in. My mind, and I think in the minds of many people, for example, if you were on a cruise and you're in Glacier Bay National Park, you need to be on the deck with the other 2000 people. Like, don't, don't miss that.

It's absolutely magical. No, no, absolutely. You, I've had the, you, you and I have the experience once we were in San Diego, California after being in Mexico, and we came back and we were looking for a place to eat, and there was a place at a really long line, and there was another restaurant across the street that had no line at all.

And I was like, I'm not, I'm going to the empty restaurant. Right? Yeah. And our traveling companion said, that line is enormous. There must be a reason. Yeah. Let's wait. Yeah. And I will say, he was right. He was right. That place was amazing. The pizza grotto highly recommended. Yeah. Not a sponsor. Yeah. Um, I, it was totally worth it.

Worth the wait. And sometimes that's the way crowded things are. Yeah. I think another experience, um, that. Is where there are lots of crowds. We'll talk about more this more in a minute. Is the visitor center in Denali in the entrance area? Correct. Yeah. A good example. But like, you don't wanna miss Denali because of that.

We are gonna talk about Denali specifically. Yeah. Um, but I think just thinking about, am I willing to do something a little bit different, to have more solitude, um, is something that's worth thinking about. Like, you okay. You just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt you just for a second because you just used the term solitude and I want to challenge our listeners to think, when you say, I wanna avoid crowds, that's kind of not really a thing.

There's a lot of things in that that you need to unpack. Yes. And I think, yeah. So let's talk about that Jay. Like what, when you say I wanna avoid crowds, what specific experience or feeling or what is it that you want to avoid? Yeah. And I think some people, when they say they wanna avoid crowds, they're looking for an experience of solitude.

Yes. In which case being in like. A minivan full of people. There may only be seven people in that vehicle, but that would not, they would still feel crowded. Right, right. Yeah, that's a good point. Where other people would be like, oh, well that's just a small group of people. That's not a crowd. Yeah. I think for me personally, and I don't know that you are asking me personally, but No, but I think it's worth, um, but I think for me, I really like to discover new things and so for me it's less about avoiding other people and more about like, Hey, I wonder if there's something.

You know, if I don't go where everybody else is going, where else can I go? And that leads to some kind of cool discoveries. Yeah. Um, we'll talk more about that later. Yeah. Like joy, joy, discovery sort of feeling. Yes. You know, I have that saying that I got from a ranger when I was a little kid, which is that, um, trails are the paths of the unenlightened, which, which I think is a little rough, but Yeah.

But I think the point is kind of made that, yeah. I think there's also the, like is is, you know, there are, there are specific needs from people who may be autism spectrum disorders or Yeah. Or just are highly sensitive people who might be like, I just need to not hear a lot of noise. Yep. Uh, or I need to not be jostled.

I'm a person who does not like to be in crowds of people because of some of my past experience, especially having been an emergency responder. I'm very alert to what people are doing all the time. Yes. And so it's very distracting and hard for me to have a, an in. Place experience without Yeah. Watching like, oh God, that person, I mean, you've been with me in national parks and people are about to fall over and a railing 'cause they're perching on it.

Yeah. That's very hard. Can't I cannot, I cannot be present. Yeah. 'cause of that. And like, so that's like me personally, being around that is a challenge to me. Yep. Um, you know, I I is is it the kind of experience where everyone's standing along a line and looking off at the beautiful thing? Is that cool? Or is it standing in lines?

A lot of people hate the experience of standing in lines, but then the, the thing you do, like for example, waiting in line to take a ride on a zip line or something. Yeah. The experience itself is obviously not crowded, but the waiting in the line to get, uh, one of the biggest complaints I've heard from cruise ship guests is the lines to disembark.

Yeah. Which is actually, I think we should talk about that in a minute later, but. Anyway. Yeah, just I think it's worth thinking about what it is you're actually trying to avoid. Yes, I agree. Agree with in a more specific way. Agree. Yep. I totally agree. So when Jay and I were talking about, for those of you listening, talking about this episode, we wanted to divide this avoiding crowds into a couple different parts.

So one is talking about places that aren't crowded, right to add to your itinerary. And that is ideal for those of you who either are planning your second trip, right, or you already know you're gonna go to Alaska more than one time, or your trip is further out in the future where you still have some control over your itinerary.

So we'll talk about that first, and then we'll talk about how to beat the crowds at places that are crowded that you might be going to. And either you didn't get to decide or you decided a long time ago. Or you're like, I have to see Denali, but how do I avoid crowds? So, um, the second part of this conversation will be around places that are crowded and how to navigate that, um, in different ways.

Before we dive into those two things though, Jay, there was something else I wanted to just mention, which was about restaurants. Um, because I think there's a difference between avoiding crowds and waiting in line. I think some, sometimes people don't mind there being a lot of other people around if they don't have to wait in line.

Yeah. That's, or like the line is really the problem. I'm thinking people with young children who are like, I can't wait in line, I can wait line. Right. Or people with someone with a disability, you know, like, that just may not be an option. Right. You can't stand there and shuffle forward six inches at a high.

Yeah. Whether they're neurodivergent or have limited mobility, they, they just might not be able to do that. Mm-hmm. Or it might make. Really miserable for them. So the number one place that I think as a traveler, you're gonna run into that in Alaska, is gonna be in restaurants. Yeah. And in general, waits for restaurants.

Pretty much all restaurants in areas where visitors are. Restaurants, restaurants are overwhelmed. Um, there's long waits and service is slow. So many places are worth the wait. But I just wanna prepare you for that. Um, one of the things I talk about a lot with my clients and also with my guests when I'm leading tours, is like, here are some quick eats.

Right. Like, here's a food truck that I like. Right. Things like that. Right. And most places you're gonna go are gonna have, they may not have fa traditional fast food. I mean, Anchorage does. And Fairbanks does. But other than Wasilla. But other than that, you know, but there are quick places and you can always ask a local like, Hey, you know, my kids are tired.

I need to get them a quick burger. Yeah. You know, where would you take your kids? There's always gonna be something because Yep. Everyone's got to eat. Yes. And the employees have gotta eat. Yes. The like, you know, the everyone. And, and there will be someplace that people go to grab a quick bite that's like, there's always gonna be something.

Yep. Okay. Another thing, actually another alternative to that I would say is if you're on a cruise, you don't have to eat onshore. Yep. You can always eat on the ship. The best restaurant in town is always gonna be the one floating in the harbor. And almost always, well that not quite always, I would encourage you to eat onshore.

It's good. Support the, the local businesses and whatever, but it, it, it. It won't have the weights. Your ship will have a system for, for reservations and seatings and whatever. Yep. So if that's important to you, you know, you don't have to do that onshore. Yeah, that's a really good point. Yep. Yeah. Okay. So Jay, let's start by talking about just places you could go that you could add to your itinerary in Alaska that aren't crowded.

Now, obviously this is probably obvious to everyone listening, you know, if you go to a remote fly-in only location, you know, you go to a fishing lodge in, uh, that you fly into somewhere, um, you know, that's gonna be one way. But like other than those extremely remote areas, what thoughts do you have about places to go?

Um, that you've found not to be super crowded? Well, I think, you know, I think about this slightly differently than you a shocker. What, there's a thing that I think about differently than you what I know. Um, and it's not just whether or not jello is a salad or a dessert. Oh, we're, that isn't, this podcast is not about jello.

It could be No, never. Okay. Uh, uh, not bringing it up 20 some years in this conflict still rises. Yeah. Uh, so I, I think about this as what I call the difficulty triangle. Yeah. Which is that, uh, I mean, for Alaska travel, I think about it as weather cost and effort. Yep. As the triangle. And essentially when, you know, good weather, low cost, low effort, it's gonna be crowded.

Yeah. I mean, for something desirable to do. Right. Um, and so my, my approach to this has always been think about what of that triangle you don't mind that others do. Mm-hmm. If you're, you know, financially. Well off and you don't mind spending, you know, a few extra thousand dollars. Yeah. You can get a more exclusive experience that will Yes.

Because that cost will Yep. Will, will buy you similarly, you know, if you're willing and strong enough and, and able to hike long distance. Yeah. You can get, you can get away from crowds that way. Yeah. Or putting a tremendous amount of time into research that can help you avoid, that can help you avoid, uh, crowds too.

Or seeing something in a different season. The weather, like doing something when the weather isn't great for that. Yeah. Uh, you know, going to Alaska in the winter will almost certainly reduce your crowd's experience unless it's in March. But, but yeah. I was just gonna say, unless it's in March when Jenny tells everyone to go to Alaska.

I know. 'cause it's awesome. But that makes it crowded. Right. It's awesome. But like things like. The Iditarod start, it's gonna be crowded. Yeah. Like it just is. Or fur ondy or that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yep. So I feel like it doesn't exactly, it fits within your, within your rubric. But I like to think about it in this way too.

Yeah. Um, so would it, this is an example of what I think you're saying, Jay. Um, Homer and Seward are both port towns on the Kenai Peninsula. They're different, but they're similar in that they're port towns. They have fishing, they have boat tours. They're small, they have limited restaurants and places to stay.

Um, Seward is very busy and crowded in the summer, and a homer is not, you won't have solitude in Homer, but there are way less visitors there. Mm-hmm. And why is that? It's a very long drive. It's a six drive, basically. Yeah. Yep. Right. And I think I would throw in there as in the mix Valdez even, maybe more so.

Yeah. Um. And, you know, Cordova or Yes. Like, you know, or if you go off the road system to like wrangle or someplace like that, it's even, or Cordova. Yeah. Like, yeah, Cordova, but you know, you're, you're, um, you're gonna dramatically reduce because it's getting harder and harder to get to for a very s I'm not, I I should, I'm not gonna try to say similar, but they're all port towns that have boat tours, towns and fishing and, you know, yes.

You can have similar experiences in those places even though they're very different. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking of. And Valdez is a really good example. Valdez, if you go there in the summer, like it is very busy with Alaskans, like mostly people from Fairbanks who were there for fishing. So yes, there are a few group tours that go to Valdis every now and again.

There, there mean, there, there is I think one cruise ship that calls there. Um, RV travelers get there, but like if you go to Valdis, it will be very different. From Seward or Anchorage. And there's different kinds of crowds too. Yeah, that's a good point. And you know, like Valdez's crowds will be very dependent at when the silvers are running.

Exactly. Valdez is gonna be busy there. And the other thing is like silver salmon for the, yeah. Val Valdez has limited, they have some excellent restaurants, but they don't have a ton of them. And it's, it's not, you know, you're not gonna see crowds on a hiking trail. You're not, you're not anything like that.

But there might be a very long wait at the boat launch. Right, right. When, so when people are fishing for salmon or whatever. I also think there's a con, there's a problem I've seen people do when they're trying to avoid crowds where they go to a place that normally isn't crowded, but during an event or a time when more people go there, and that can actually really dramatically increase the feeling of crowdedness.

Yeah. It's like if the infrastructure isn't there. For the normal, you know, so, you know, the infrastructure's, uh, you think, think of like a county fair, you know? Right. Uh, or like 4th of July in Seward. Right. 4th of July in Seward is a good example. Right? Yeah. Um, beer Fest and Hanes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So these things like lead to a lot more people than normal being in a place.

So even if that place might normally chicken stock Oh good. Yeah. It's chicken stock. Yeah, it's chicken stock. It's a music festival in a, in the town of chicken it town is a really generous word for chicken. It's, it's chicken is awesome, but it's teeny. It's a saloon and a dredge. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. Are there any other specific places you wanna talk about specific places?

Um, I'm, I'm hesitant to call out a specific place partly. Be because there's nothing that guarantees a crowd, not that maybe you're subscriber only episodes. It will have enough of an impact to have the, the Rick Steves effect, as we call it here in Seattle, uh, which is the, like Yeah. Gets famous for being uncrowded and becomes crowded.

Yeah. Uh, but I, I think it brings up something we, we mentioned in our last subscriber episode, which is don't crowdsource how to avoid crowds. Yes. So I think, I don't know what to say about that specifically, except that, um, I can answer it specifically. Okay. Jenny. Jenny answers answer specifically. I'm not afraid to be Rick Steve's, I would love you, but finish what you were saying.

Saying please do. He's become Rick Steves you didn't wanna be Rick for a minute other than his hair. I want you to be Rick Steve's, was that the only thing Yeah. That you'd changed? He's a guy. Yeah. There's also that. Yeah. Um. So one would be wrangle Saint Elias National Park. Okay. Absolutely. And that's a, to me, I'm always gonna recommend that over Denali, if you're gonna choose one.

I, I know that Denali is a, you know, but Wrangle Saint Elias is freaking epic. Yeah. And has a, a fraction of the people, I mean like a tiny fraction. I mean, but it is a huge pain, a decimal point Yes. To get there. Yeah. But it's super worth it. I think the other thing about Wrangle Saint Elias is it's harder to explore the park independently.

You really, right. You know That's true. It's a vast wilderness and so, you know, you either need to be doing flight scene or hiking with a guide, or rafting with a guide, something like that. Yeah. But I mean, if you just want to look at mountains without too many other people around. You know, the Kennecott Glacier Lodge in, or the town of McCarthy, again, town being know, really generous.

Um, you know, we had an episode, um, in May in mid-May with Avery Mosen, who's a guide, um, who I did a tour with. That was episode in Ring Saint Elias. So, um, you could go back and listen to that, but, but that one for sure. And then, um, also the town of Hayes. I mean, I, I feel like if you're an independent traveler and you're gonna go somewhere, um, that Yeah, absolutely is a great choice.

Take a choice. Take advantage of the fact that you're independent. Yeah. And Hanes doesn't get that many cruise ship visitors, right. So take advantage of that. Exactly. Yeah. And I think another place, uh, that's kind of a sleeper that I have a hard time convincing people of this, but it's true. Um. I think a great, uh, that, well, I, yes, but that's not what I was gonna say.

I'm distracted. Um, I think Anchorage, Fairbanks and Juno as a base camp are fantastic Yeah. For avoiding crowds. Yeah. Especially if you get a, a house to rent Yeah. In one of those places. Um, downtown Anchorage is very busy with visitors sometimes. I mean, downtown Fairbanks is not really ever busy, but it can, can be a little busy from time to time.

Um, you know, downtown Juno is completely bananas with cruise ship guests, but you know, you could stay out in the valley and have a rental car and never interact with those crowds at all. And then, like you were saying, Jay, the other thing, another one of my favorite spots is to go to Glacier Bay National Park.

But on your own. So, you know, combining Juno and Glacier Bay, um, glacier Bay is not crowded if you go there by yourself and stay at the lodge and travel on your own. Um, the reason it has high visitation numbers is because of the cruise ship visitors who never go ashore. Right. Um, so, uh, well there some of the small ships do.

But anyway, those are some of my, um, suggestions and, you know, if you stay in one of those towns that I mentioned and you have a rental house and a rental car and you just talk to locals about places to go, I mean, there's just kind of endless places to go that aren't and nothing is crowded. Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a, you know, most folks are either bound to the rail belt, bus tour, cruise ship industry. Yep. Or they're in RVs. And so if you have a car. As well. Yep. Uh, that opens up areas that most folks aren't. Now you may be dealing with Alaskan crowding, which is a different thing from visitor crowding.

Yeah. Meaning that like if there's a salmon run on a river, there will be wall to wall people fishing it. Yes. That's where literally shoulder to shoulder. Yeah. Uh, so I think that surprises people sometimes who aren't expecting the, like, the, and that's not tourists. Yeah. I, I've heard people describe, they're like, there were tourists, wall to wall up the river.

No, no. Those are not tourists, honey. That was locals. Any of those are locals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, so I'm Okay, but let's, let's flip that coin over and say, what about the places that are crowded? Yes. I mean, that are often crowded. How are, how can you have that experience of that place? Let's take Denali.

Yeah. As a, as a case study. Yes. I think, you know, there's a lot of places we could talk about here, but I think if we talk about Denali Alley and. Juno as an example. Oh yeah. Of a cruise port. That's a great example. And what I'd say about Juno would apply to Kechika and Skagway as well. Should we start with the cruise port?

I don't know. Do you wanna start with Denali or you think Denali or Let's start with Denali. Okay. Yeah. Denali is the ultimate, yeah. Um, the ultimate challenge when it comes to crowds to me. Yeah. Um, the private car thing isn't an option. You can't drive your private vehicle up the road's, right? Yep. So you can't do that.

You are going to be on a bus. Yes. Or you'll be flying or flying or walking. So, you know, we've talked about Denali in quite a few other episodes, and I could easily talk about this topic kind of forever. So I'm gonna limit myself to my two main crowd, avoiding tips. Three for Denali National Park. And I just wanna refer you back to the January episode with Robin, where we talked about visiting Denali on your own and how to navigate the park.

Right. And um, also the episode, um, in May of 2023 with Don Donna and Tom Hoer. I was just say we should call back the ho Yeah. Where you lived in Denali for 15 years. So, um, yes. So there's more detail there, but I think for this, Denali is a remote location, but at certain times and in certain areas, it is truly crowded.

Yeah. One, one of the most, other than a cruise ship dock, one of the most crowded places in Alaska. So here are my three tips for that. Number one, if you are a hiker or even not a hiker, but you enjoy walking. If you go on a trail for more than a quarter of a mile, it won't be crowded. Mm-hmm. Um, now you can take the transit bus into the park and that is awesome, but you don't have to do that to have this experience.

So you could do the Savage River Trail or the Savage Alpine Loop, which are kind of at the end of where you can drive. Right. You might wanna take the free shuttle there 'cause there's not really any parking. The Savage River parking lot's pretty small, if I remember right. Yeah. Yeah. Parking lot is kind of a generous term.

Yeah. For what it is. Um, but you know, those aren't, there will be other people, but it's not gonna be crowded. The Mount Healy trail, if it's a weekend, will be, you know, people come down from Fairbanks to do that hike. Um, some visitors do that hike, so again, it's not gonna be true solitude, but that's right at the entrance area.

Mm-hmm. Um, horseshoe Lake. Um, but if you really, if you're a hiker and you really wanna avoid crowds, I would really encourage you to check out the trails that leave from near Denali Park Village, which is about six miles away from the park entrance. And you just walk right into the park on the Triple Lake Trail.

Oh yeah. There's triple, triple lakes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Or the oxbow loop. Those don't have views of Denali, but, um, those are hard to find in the entrance area. So the bus tour or flight scene is really, or just further south is where you really see the mountain. Mm-hmm. That's also something we've talked about at length in other episodes, but I think, um, you know, the Triple Lakes trail I've done with my coworkers a lot 'cause.

The Denali Park Village is usually where we're staying. Oh, right. On tour. Right, right. And it's just across the bridge there, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's a, the walking across the bridge kind of sucks because it's loud and a little scary, but it's over fast. And, you know, I don't think I've ever seen more than five people on that trail.

It's beautiful. Has berries in the fall. Oxbow Lake is Al or Oxbow Lake? No, the Oxbow Loop trail it same trail head. Um, but it's completely flat and goes along the Nana River. There's no sign that says you're entering the park, except at the trail head. It's like, Hey, this is Denali National Park. No dogs.

Right, right. Um, but those, those are great solitude places in Denali. Uh, and of course if you're, if you have more time and you're a more experienced hiker, you can just get off. The transit bus, not the tour bus, but the transit bus kind of anytime you want. Yeah. And hike by yourself. Donna and Tom talked about that quite a bit.

I was just gonna say so and they recommend you don't even have to hike, just get off the bus Yes. And sit on the side of the, yeah. So if you know that sounds appealing and you haven't listened to the episode, that's called, um, living in Denali, a Ranger's perspective from last summer. Go back and listen to that.

Yeah. Call out to that. That was a great, great episode. And great people buy his book. Yes. And also buy Tom's book. It's really good. Yeah. Okay. Call a ranger. Yes. Call a ranger. Okay. So, um, that's my first one is to hit the trail. Second one is to do flight scene. And you. Now, this is real confusing. We also have an episode about this experience from February with K two Aviation.

There's another company that does it as well, Taki or Taxi. So that is something you would do in Taki. I would recommend you do it in Taki. Um, but I'm gonna just tell you, flight scene is expensive. But if you do the flight scene trip and then the glacier landing, you will be on the plane with a handful of other people.

And then you land on the Ruth Glacier in the middle of the park surrounded by mountains, and it's you and your pilot and the people you came with, the, like five people you came with. I mean, it's, it's just. If you really wanna feel like you're alone in a wilderness, like I recommend that. Mm-hmm. Um, and then finally, if you're not a hiker, you don't wanna do flight scene and you don't wanna do the bus experience, then my other, this is a very basic tip, but it's a big deal and the middle of the day, so I'm gonna say between 11 and one especially, you've got at the visitor's center area, you've got the train arriving, the train departing, the morning bus tours, returning people going out to the dog demonstration.

It is absolutely bananas at the park entrance area between. 11 and one. Now it's busy all the time, but at that time, which is what I feel like I'm always there. It's really right. 'cause that's when everybody is there a lot. It's a lot. Right. So if you wanna explore that area for sure, if you're there in the evening, I know we've talked about this before, you know, the visitor center might not be open, but you can walk around, um, or even just the late afternoon, you know, like after three, it's gonna be a fraction of the people who are there in the middle of the day.

So if all else fails, um, try to explore the entrance area. And I think in the late afternoon, I think that's a more general concept too, which is that, you know, in my triangle thing, um, most people are kind of middle of the day people. And so if you are a person who enjoys being up early or staying up late.

You can often find a dramatic reduction in the number of people. Yes. Yep. In particular, you know, it's interesting, uh, you and I had a, an experience once down in, um, Lassen, uh, peak volcanic park, and we climbed Lassen Peak in the middle of the night. Yeah. Uh, which was really cool. It was completely, obviously completely empty.

We were the only people Yeah. And we climbed up to the top to watch the sunrise. Yeah. It was really, what was kind of interesting to me was when we descended that the trail was packed Yeah. With people. Yep. In the, like half an hour after sunrise maybe. Mm-hmm. I mean, quite early. It was like 5 30, 6 in the morning.

Yeah. Almost six 30, something like that. Yep. Um, and it's just interesting to me that like hiking in particular, people often hit the trail quite early, and if you're willing to hike later in the day, often there's not nearly as many people. You do have to be a little more self-sufficient because if there's a problem dark, you know, the night will come on while you're out.

Yeah. So, uh, but that's, you know, that's a, it's a possibility. Um. Early and late. Yep. Totally agree. Okay, so let's talk about cruise ports. And again, you know, any Alaska cruise port is gonna be very busy around the ship. So I think just so that we can keep this episode to a reasonable amount of time, let's use Juno as an example.

Does that sound okay? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jay, I think everything I'm gonna say about Juno would also apply to, um, Ketchikan and Skagway and, um, sort of Sitka. It's a little different in Sitka because the ship's dock further from town. Um, but still kind of the same idea. Um, okay, so should I, I have a couple of first off things that Okay.

Sounds good. Before you even get, so I think I, like I, I said I've, I've worked on ships. Yeah. I've worked on, I, I feel like a lot of people get frustrated with crowds in the disembarkation process. Yeah. And that is that they're waiting in line to go ashore. Yeah. So I have a couple of suggestions on that.

One of them is wait half an hour. Yeah. You know, or 45 minutes if you, if you are not counting the minutes to be ashore in a place, which I don't think you should be. Yeah. And you go have a cup of coffee and watch the, watch the circus from Yes. You know, your balcony or from a coffee, the, the coffee shop window and the ship and let things subside a little bit.

Mm-hmm. That's one thing. Uh, another one is pay attention to the process and don't prefu. I'm always surprised by people who complain about the crowd to disembarkation, but then they arrived 40 minutes before their disembarkation time. Right. Uh. And like, well then you're gonna be standing there with this crowd of people for that whole time, just Right.

Just chill. Chill. Just be cool. Just chill. Yeah. Just show up when, show up when the, the, your time is, and you know, a lot, most big ships have some sort of December, well, the small ships too. Yeah. Have a process that's like, yeah. You know, you, you'll have a ticket or whatever you, my final recommendation on that would be if you really hate that, like getting on and off the ship process.

Uh, especially at a tender port, which if you're not familiar with that term, there are a few ports, uh, here and there and it depends on, and, and the ship. It depends a little bit too, where you go ashore on a boat mm-hmm. Uh, a small boat takes you back and forth and that can be a slower process. Yeah. So there's more waiting in lines Yep.

To that. But you can sometimes find, um, shore expeditions that leave directly from the ship. Yes. Where you'll actually step out through a gangway onto a boat that's taking you to the thing. Yep. And that can be a way to avoid. Uh, a crowd too. So like you can just, the 10 of people that are going on this whale watching boat will all just get off on their own special.

Yes. You know, exit and go. Yep. That's the things I would say about that experience right away of getting it shorter. Yep. I totally agree with that. You know, while we're talking about that, Jay, would you mind talking a little bit about ship size? You know, because one thing people often say is to avoid crowds go on a small ship.

And for sure there are way fewer people, fewer people on a small ship. And you and I share maybe a minority opinion about this, but since you've lived Yeah. And worked on a small ship. Yeah. Um, yeah. Can you talk about that for a moment? So, worked. Yeah. We worked for, you know, a mega ship corporation and I've worked all the way down to, I think the small split I worked on had 65 guests on it.

Yeah. Yep. I do think that that is a conventional wisdom that maybe. Isn't warranted. And you've heard me say that before and I, I think, again, I'm gonna call back to my, to my original thing about like, ponder deep in your heart. Why, why, what you mean when you say you don't wanna be on cloud crowd? Because if you're on a ship that has 130 guests on board, you're never gonna be with more than 140 people.

Uh, so if that means you don't feel crowded, however, big cruise ships are really good at keeping people into separate groups and like breaking up things. So you don't, you're unlikely unless you choose to be in a situation where you would see that many people. But on the small ships, you don't have the luxury of that as much.

So things like. Uh, the dining rooms can feel more crowded than a big ship. I, I will, I will rewind that and say they do Yeah. Feel more crowded. Yep. Uh, because they're, they're at capacity. Right. They can't really afford to not be at capacity. Right. There's no empty space to be had, like every seat will be full Yeah.

In their dining room. Right. And everyone has to eat at the same time, because that's the only way it works. Exactly. Whereas on a, on a big cruise ship, you know, they have, they have cafeteria style buffets that you can drop in any time. There's always empty seats in any, you know, whatever. So I think, but if your experience is like, I do not want to be waiting in line to disembark with, with 300 people that are all fired up to go into Juno and go t-shirt shopping, like you will not, uh, that experience won't be so, you know, it's like, it's a little bit of a question of like.

If I'm feel, if, if part of the feeling I wanna have is I'm having a more, a less common experience. The, the small ship is 100% gonna knock that Yes. Out of the park. Like you're gonna feel like, um, and you're gonna have experiences where it's maybe you and seven or eight other people on a zodiac or you know, whatever, but, but some other parts of the experience will feel more crowded.

Yeah. And you don't generally have balconies, so there's not Right. Really a place other than like your bed. Right. Where you can be alone. Right. On a, on a small ship. Yeah. The other thing too about, and you know, we do have. Episode about small ship cruising. Anyway, so, uh, but I think another thing about that too is small ships spend more time in remote wilderness areas.

Right. Whereas big ships have more port time. Mm-hmm. So that's another thing to think about, but, but I think if you were looking for as much solitude as possible, you should at least consider a balcony cabin on a big ship. Yeah. Um, and can, and because then you have your own private right space that you can always go outside to, and again mm-hmm.

That won't be right for everyone, but it's just, it's worth thinking about. The point is just because it's small, it won't automatically Right. Provide a feeling of solitude. Right. It'll be a small group experience, but not necessarily a solitude experience. Yes. And not, yeah. Yep. Totally agree with that.

Okay. So what about. You know, you, you've gotten offshore, whatever boat you're on, you're on, you're on the ground in Juno. What would you recommend to folks? Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple ways to go. So a amazing way to get away from crowds in any Alaska cruise port is to book a small group tour. Mm-hmm. So if, now again, if you don't wanna do a tour, that that's fine, but that is, but it's an option, a great way to get away from crowds.

But it's, yeah. So for example, um, if you book a hiking tour, they are typically the most affordable tours because you're walking, there's no, there's no boat or airplane or anything involved. Um. And you know, by definition you'll be with a small group, you'll get to go to places you wouldn't get to go otherwise.

That's also true of a boat tour or a flight tour. So just look for tour experiences that have less than 10 people. Mm-hmm. I think, you know, that would be one big one if you're gonna explore on your own. Again, I know not everyone is a hiker, but getting onto a hiking trail will guarantee you are away from crowds very, very quickly.

Yeah. Um, so that is one thing. I think beyond that, um, looking for local food can give you, not necessarily an uncrowded experience, but if what you mean by no crowds is an authentic local experience, which is different. Which often again, um, what are you, what are you saying when you say that? Yeah. And if you are, if you are, so maybe you're thinking, okay, how do I, how do I find those?

Uh, restaurants, couple ways. One would be to ask your server in the dining room because the server, if you're on a cruise ship, because if you are on a cruise, um, the dining room staff usually gets some time off in port. Mm-hmm. So you can ask them where they go. That's a good strategy. If you're traveling on your own, ask your, um, either your vacation rental host or the people working at the front desk of your hotel.

Mm-hmm. We talked about this in our, our food episode, um, that they'll, they'll tell you good places to go. Mm-hmm. If you're, uh. I'm trying to think when you wouldn't be able to do one of those two things. 'cause you'll either be on a cruise or you'll be staying in a hotel or a vacation rental. If you're in a cruise port.

Um, you, another great person to ask is your tour guide or any tour guide. Mm-hmm. So, um, if you do take a tour, ask them like, where do you like to go for lunch? Or, where do you like to go for dinner? And I think beyond that, looking for, um, museums are often not crowded. Mm-hmm. Like the Alaska State Museum in Juno, or the Sea Alaska Heritage Institute.

Um, also, uh, any city park. Yes. Right. Like looking for places, you know, places where locals take their kids on. Yep. Always, you know, after school or on the weekends are also. So those are some of my, my thoughts. I also would say I want to, I, I want to call out that sometimes I think people, when they talk about crowds, they're also talking about touristy and touristy and crowds don't necessarily go together.

You can have an uncrowded, touristy experience and vice, but often those are rolled up together. Yep. And I think one thing is to kind of grow comfortable with the fact that you're a tourist. Yes. You know? And, and so some of the things you're gonna do are going to be touristy. Yep. Just by the nature, because they, they.

They cater to the needs that you have because you are on tour. Yeah. And so there are places that like a local might go that aren't gonna be accessible to you because of transportation or timing or, you know, and that's fine. Like don't, don't sweat it. You again, you can always come back on some other mode, you know, other time of year or whatever and, and have more of that if you want to.

So I, I think just on the one hand, like the touristy thing, like just kind of don't sweat it, but I'm about to say if you don't like crowds, avoid the shopping district. Yeah. The cruise ship shopping district will be crowded. Yep. If you wanna buy gifts, look for a native Alaskan arts and crafts. Place A local.

A local, yep. And look for the bear logo. Yeah. That, that says something is made in Alaska, made in Alaska. Or the hand that shows it's native Alaskan made and those symbols, you can only use those if you are certified by the state of Alaska as an indigenous. Oh, I didn't know artist that. Oh, that's cool. As an Alaskan artist.

So look for those symbols. Um, you'll see them everywhere. But look for those when you're shopping. And often the shops that cater to more made in Alaska stuff are not in that dense Yeah. Cruise ship. Sometimes they are, but not always. Sometimes they're, but a lot of times they're not. And, and, and because of that are less crowded and you know, it's partly because there's a lot of The rent is high Yeah.

In that like, specific zone that's right near a cruise ship where it's very easily accessible. So I mean, I think that's it. Or think about whether or not you want to buy gifts. Right. Or whether you want to, to order them after you get home from, there are a lot of made in Alaska places that you can find on the web that you can find amazing stuff.

That would be a great memento of your. Trip that you don't Yep. And you don't also have to buy it and then keep it in your luggage. Yeah, right. One other thing I was just gonna mention about Gino since we're talking about that specifically, um, I really love the Juno, um, food Tours tour with Taste in Juno.

We also have an episode about this from last summer with Midge Moore who's the owner of that company. You know, if you wanna have an authentic local experience in Juno, it's really hard to beat that other than whale watching. I mean, whale watching is a different kind of experience. It's not as small, but it's awesome.

Whale watching and Juno is awesome. Um, but the food tour is cool because all of the guides that live in Juno year round, you know, they have lots of in-depth stories about food and local culture and it's just really cool. And so. You will be in the busy area of town while you're doing that, but you'll be in like private spaces and it's right.

It's just really cool. Um, also, yeah, there, um, Juno also has a great independent bookstore. Um, there's lots of, um, stores in for sure in Juno. They in ke acam that have lots of Alaskan made and indigenous made items. There's also in Juno, um, at the Sea Alaska Heritage Institute, there is a whole gift shop that is all native Alaskan.

Um. Gifts and art, and it's fantastic. So yeah, recommend that. Just, just, you know, those, those, like a lot of these big chain cruise ship, uh, gift shops are, they're, they're not a great experience. I mean, if you're into that, that's cool. Like, knock yourself out. Yep. But if you're want to avoid the crowds, like, kind of avoid those particular gift shops, I think might Yeah.

You know? Yep. Unless one of them wants to pay us an advertising fee, which, which we don't take advertising. Right. But if we ever change our mind, you know, we never say never. Maybe we'll change our mind. Um, I think the other thing too, if you're in a Alaska cruise port and you are not on a cruise, so for example, if you're in Juno, Kechika, Sitka, right?

Uh, Skagway especially right. Do not miss the opportunity to join the locals for a beer as the, or the ship is leaving. If you don't drink beer, that's cool. You can have another type of beverage, but it's very traditional to have a beverage while the ships are sailing away. Andt and Watson go away. That opportunity.

Absolutely. You get to and yeah. Many great things about that. Okay. Yes. Okay. Is there anything else we wanna say about crowds before we move to wrap up with the news? Uh, uh, distance. I'm just gonna say also, uh, most cruise ship passengers do not walk very far. Yeah. Uh, we've had a very good luck, uh, increased ports around the world.

Yep. Just going a little further than people wanna walk. Yeah. And having a, a lot of, a lot less crowds. Yes. Uh, it doesn't take very far. No, it doesn't. It's kind of surprising actually. Yep. It's like, you know, half a mile, three quarters of a mile, and there's like nobody. Yep. Uh, so if you're, if you're willing and able to walk or even take a taxi.

Whatever. It doesn't take very far to get away from the crowds that are right around the cruise. It's really a very Yes. Localized experience. Yes. Um, just don't count on being able to take a ride share. Correct. And also do not push it with the time. Yeah. Especially if especi, you're taking a taxi 'cause it might take forever to get one.

Correct. And, and you and ships will like ours, ships will leave, will save forever. Am mean hours, ships will leave you. Yeah. They will. So pay attention to the time. Yes. Okay. So to wrap up today, um, our last thing for these subscriber episodes is our news update. So we've each got a news item. Do you wanna start or do you want me to start?

Um, sh why don't you start? Okay. This one, so mine is, I just wanted to mention, uh. Denali climbing. So one of the things that visitors don't usually see firsthand is the immense climbing operation to the summit of Denali. And actually, not just Denali, also Mount Forker, which is mm-hmm. Also in the park. And also very high.

I, I don't know exactly how high, but it's, it's up there. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um. And, uh, the Park Service manages a pretty complex, vibrant, very busy climbing season. And the reason I wanted to mention this, this time, so, um, we are bringing you this episode a little bit early, um, because Jay and I are gonna be on vacation.

On a cruise in Alaska. Yes. Which is gonna be awesome with my whole family, which, um, which our family paid for next week. Yes. Because, because they're going on vacation like normal people. I, I'm the only one who's gonna Yeah. But no, we're, we're like checking out. I am not working during this experience.

Mm-hmm. So, um, that's why we're bringing you this episode a few days before. We normally would, and we are recording this on May 31st, because I'm gonna be in Alaska leading tours pretty much all the time. Mm-hmm. Between now and when we go on the cruise. When you can come back to the content cave Yes. And exactly.

Content cave. Yeah. And so in the last two weeks, um, so the, the climbing season on Denali is kind of early to mid-May this year. It was closer to mid-May through early to mid-July. So as you're listening to this, this is coming to the end of the climbing season. And so as of the end of May, there have been three climbers who have died on Denali just in the last two weeks, and several others who've been rescued.

And I'm not gonna get into details about that. You've probably seen that in the media. Um, or you can certainly look it up, um, if you wanna know more about it. But what I wanted to mention is that having that in the news has made me think about how as a visitor, you're typically not very aware of what's going on with climbers and Yeah.

Unless you're Intel Kea. Yes. Where the kind of unofficial headquarters of climbing is. Yes. Well, the official headquarters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's actually official. Yeah. So if you are, uh, going to be. In Alaska and you are going to be going to tna, which I would highly recommend. It's a funky, fun little town with incredible views of the mountain.

That is where the National Park Service bases their climbing program for Denali. And if you are there or if you're driving by and you have an extra couple hours to take the detour to TNA and have lunch and walk around, which I'd at a minimum highly recommend, um, go make sure to go to the Walter Harper Ranger Station in tna.

And that is, it's not a visitor center, it's a ranger station, so that's important to know. Right. It doesn't have a big visitor center style exhibit. It doesn't have ranger programs, I don't think. It doesn't have a theater, but they do have a big library in there. And it's named for Walter Harper, who was the first person to Summit Denali.

And he was a native Alaskan. He was 19 years old when he reached the summit. Um, the party he was with, uh, there were three of them and he was the first one on the summit. So, um, it's a cool place if you're interested in climbing at all. They'll have all the stats from this year's season. Um, Mary Carey's, um, McKinley View Lodge, which is another great stop along the Parks Highway.

They also keep a log of what's going on with climbing on the mountain. Um, and if you're not going to tell Kitna, I just wanted to let you know that you can still follow along with the climbing season on the Denali National Park website, they have, um, what they call the field report, and they put it up every few days, and it's the Walter Harper Ranger Station that maintains it.

Um, so you can find that at nps.gov/dena/bo blogs, not boggs slash uh, field dash report. And then you can also just search for it on their website. But you can see, um, how many people are registered to climb what the success rate is. And it's, uh, sometimes when there are search and rescues going on, they also mm-hmm.

Um, publish information about that. Not always. It depends on the circumstances. Yeah. Anyway, the season basically ends when the snow starts to get too unstable and soft, right? Yes. Yeah. And sloppy. We do have an episode about climbing. Uh, yes. With, um, Ryan. Yeah. I'm trying to remember which episode that was.

It was July, 2023. Wow. About climbing. We've did a lot of episodes. We do. It's awesome. Anyway, so I just, since that has been in the news a lot here as we're recording this at the end of May, that was the thing that I wanted to share. Yeah. So how about you, Jay? What's yours? Yeah. You know, that, uh, um, I wanted to talk briefly about, and it's, I'm gonna, maybe, maybe this will become a tradition, uh, I'm gonna divert it slightly into what I'm gonna start calling Jay's Photography Corner.

Oh, okay. Uh, which is, that sounds good. Which is, you know, I, I, I'm a semi-professional photographer, and by that I mean, I'm a good photographer that occasionally makes money doing it. Yeah. That's maybe how I describe myself, but so May 11th, 10th, 11th morning, the 12th, there was a big solar wind storm that made amazing auroras across a lot of North America.

Yes. A lot of people saw the Aurora Borealis for the first time. Um, and, and it was visible well into the lower 48, which is pretty cool. Yeah. However, I have noticed, uh, a lot of disappointment from people I've heard on a lot of news outlets, showed a picture and be like, user, or, you know, viewer, whatever, sent in this photo of the Aurora and I heard two things I want to, to bring up.

I've heard a lot of people saying like, I guess I just missed it. It wasn't that great when I saw it, or I think I was in the wrong place. Or there was, you know, and. I've talked about this before, but there's a camera magic going on. Yeah. Which is that a long exposure of the Aurora can make it look really incredible.

And it just made me think more, and I've been hearing this from people just this week. I, I heard, um, people saying like, oh, I saw those pictures, and it just wasn't like that when I saw it. And they were definitely bummed. I'm like, you saw the Northern Lights for the first time in your life. Like, it, it breaks my heart that people are disappointed by that.

And so I, what I, Jay's photo corner slash news is that, that, that experience of, that Aurora really pointed out to me. I really want to encourage our listeners to not compare their experience to things they see on social media platforms, on the news, et cetera. And, and I want to, I mean, there's some really obvious reasons for that.

And there's some not so obvious ones, but one of them is. First of all, own your own experience. Like have your own experience. Yeah. There's gonna be things you see that no one else will, you may not get. And if you get your heart set on, you know, I really don't like you've heard me, if you've, if you're a diehard Alaska uncovered listener, you've heard me complain about this, but I hate bucket list and you probably are because you're a subscriber, right?

So you're probably into it. I hate bucket list stuff, partly because I think it leads people into a problematic, ID focus on a thing that may or may not happen. You know, my bucket list is to see a humpback whale. Well, there's a pretty good chance you'll get that experience, but you might not. My bucket list thing is to go to Alaska and see the Aurora bar in the winter.

If you book a long enough time, you're likely to have it, but you might not. Yeah. And I really don't like that it sets people up to be really crushed if they don't tick off this item. And I think that's especially true with things from social media fame and yeah, you don't always know what went into the photographs.

You see for one thing. Yeah, there's a lot of photo editing that can take place. There's a lot of AI now being like, a lot of images that people are like, you know, are completely fabricated, um, from whole cloth or they've just been. You know, the saturation dragged up and the whatever. And then there's also just like, uh, there's a very famous picture that probably everyone has seen, if you know it or not, of Antelope Canyon in, uh, the desert Southwest, where there is these like amazing sandstone eroded shapes.

And there'll be a person looking up at this with the light right in it. Right? This is experience. Uh, there's a really great article about it. I think it's New York Times did an article about it, but they took pictures back of the line of people who you get to step forward, take that photo, the guy takes that photo, hands your camera to you, you step off, you know, the next person does it.

Uh, or the pyramids in Egypt where like you see these pictures, but like. Just out of frame on each side is like a pizza hut and a mini mart and you know, garbage and stuff like that. Right? Yeah. And so like the framing there is giving you an idea of an experience that maybe doesn't exist. Even if that, like, that exact picture can be taken authentically and real.

You may be missing out on the, the, the, the sum total of the experience is not that. Yeah. So I think I just wanted to say that like, if, first of all, if you saw the Northern Lights for the first time over that weekend, congratulations. It's, it's, yes. It's a pretty cool thing to see. I never get tired of it.

A a bunch of people told me like, oh, I'm sure you see 'em all the time. Yeah. I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of auroras in my life and I will never miss an opportunity to see another one. Like, it's just cool. But also don't, you know, try not to let, and if you're going to, you're planning to go on a trip to Alaska, try not to like obsess over things.

You've seen other people post on social media. Right? Yes. And, and try to let the experience come, come to you without, that's my soapbox. You know? And I think the other thing, we've talked about this before and we are gonna do, uh, another Northern Lights episode this fall. Um, but the other thing that I wanna make sure people know is you can see the aurora with the naked eye and it's spectacular.

Oh my gosh. I know. So if you didn't, that was another thing we heard people say. If you saw a faint Aurora, I just want you to know that sometimes you see a faint aurora, and sometimes you see an aurora that just lights up the sky to the point where you can read a book in the middle of the night without a light.

Right. Great. So, so if you saw the Aurora in a place like Florida or Washington. Um, maybe a lot of white, white pollution or, yeah. It is amazing. But it's also different than what you see in Northern Latitudes. Correct. It really is. So I, it'll be over your head. It'll be brighter. People don't, people don't think, don't take away from that really cool experience of getting to see them in the lower 48 that like you can't see them with the naked eye because you can't.

Right. I know. Yeah. I mean, if you're lucky, you know it. Not always. Yeah, absolutely. But often. Yeah. Okay, well I'm gonna get off that soapbox, but I really would. It's a good one. It really hurts. It just breaks my heart to see people get disappointed. I know, I know, I know. Because they had this expectation built up by, yes.

And I'll just say also only with search and rescue plug on this particular, but the National Park Service has had a lot of experiences. I'm not speaking, I'm not in the National Park Service anymore. I'm not speaking for them. But I know people in the Park Service who say, you know that, uh, I won't name the particular platform.

They always blame. But social media kills more people than bears. Partly because people are recreating some really epic looking photos.

It happens like where people are trying to recreate a particular photo, like standing on a particular point or whatever. Yeah. Again, just, just don't Yeah, just don't, and we know you would never do that because you are the kind of awesome people. Listen to this podcast. Right. But don't let your, don't let other people do that.

But don't, don't fall off. Yeah. Don't. Yeah. Right. Stay strong. Stay strong. Real world love. We love you. We love you. And we need you. Yes. So we are so grateful to all of you for supporting Alaska uncovered and allowing us to keep going. It really means a lot to us. And, and working on this is so. Is so fun and such a, it's such a joy to bring, um, our guests and our knowledge and our experience to you, and we're very grateful for you.

Yeah. And you make that happen. So we appreciate it. Yes, thank you. And bye for now. Bye.