BBC Sudas.

Hey, Hi'm Maggie.

Just a quick heads up before we start.

The series does contain some descriptions of violence and deals with adult themes.

Jim and Sandy are at their favorite restaurant, Los Cucos, their most love dishes spread across the table.

There's a fish cancun for Sandy and agorace for Jim, which is something like a thick corn tortilla topped with beans, meat and salsa.

Jim's had his hair freshly cut for the occasion, and the pictures I've seen of him, he looks kind of like your classic dad.

He's got a buttoned down, collared shirt tucked into khakis, his BlackBerry clip to his belt.

Jim's petite at only five seven, with a slim frame and wire glasses.

Sandy's just a bit shorter, with shoulder length blonde hair and tight, square framed glasses.

That night, she's of vision and brown with brown slacks, sweater and boots.

I can imagine her laughing as she leans in her hand cupped around a pina colada.

It's December twenty second, twenty twelve, and Jim and Sandy are celebrating their thirty second wedding anniversary, an amazing achievement for any relationship.

They finish their meal, pay the bill, and head out into the cool Texas night, stopping at CBS to pick up some mixers for drinks, sprite and coke.

They make their way back home, leaving the suburban sprawl of shopping centers and chain restaurants to the tree lined street of their cult de sac home and pull into their garage.

Sandy enters first, while Jim follows behind, his hands full with the leftovers from dinner and the drinks they purchased at CBS.

Sandy heads to the master bedroom and into the adjoining bathroom.

She begins filling up the corner jacuzzi definitely big enough for two.

You see where this is going.

Grab some rum and vodka, a bowl of strawberries, and a tub of whipped cream.

Jim follows behind.

They and dress and get into the chacuzi have sex talk.

They somehow spend two hours in the tub, but at some point the couple's four dogs begin barking.

A neighbor has complained before, and both Jim and Sandy are conscious to not make it a big issue.

Jim jumps out of the tub, wraps a towel around his waist and brings the dogs in.

Sandy stays in a little bit longer, lingering in the now lukewarm water, but when Jim doesn't come back, she gets out the jacuzzi jets.

Still worrying.

She puts on some underwear, a red nightgown, black robe, and fluffy socks, then sits on an ornate brown satin chair with curling white vines and begins lotioning her legs.

But after that, according to Sandy, the world goes black.

Around sixteen hours later, on December twenty third, Sandy and Jim's family are gathered outside their house, having just discovered his dead body and found Sandy tied up and shut in a closet.

They had come over for dinner, but instead they now find themselves being interviewed by the police, who were trying to piece together what's happened.

Where was your aunt located at?

I saw her in the restaurroom.

Which restaurant the.

Master bedroom, there's a restaurroom in there.

How much of her did you see?

Her face?

She looked very pale, and she was crying a lot, and it looked like she was going to pass out when she saw my uncle.

I went to a Garrea water.

And are you close with Jamie?

Yeah, here's your ancle And what do you know about his wife, Sandra Sandy?

Honestly, no, I talked more to my uncle.

What kind of person is she that you know of.

She's a nice person.

She's always outgoing, always eating out with my mom and.

My uncle's my other uncle's ex wife.

Let me ask you this.

You were sitting in that patrol car up there when we brought her out there and photographed her, and she's on a cane.

You ever see her walk with a came before.

I've never seen her on a came before.

Now I hadn't.

The last time you saw her, she walked.

Okay, Yes, she was fine.

She came to my house December.

I believe it was December eighth or December ninth.

It was on a Sunday.

We're trying to figure out what happened.

Any problems between the two of them lately that you know of.

No, they always look like a happy couple of them to me.

They ask similar questions to the rest of the family.

You know, have you heard your other family members that are related to them?

Have you heard them talk about any problems between them.

No, no, no problem at all.

Everything was good, everything else.

Did you understand something's happened here?

Yeah, I do understand.

And that's a total shock to you.

It's a complete sort You don't suspect.

Anything that happening, or you don't have any ideas of your own A.

No, honey, I don't even know if I don't know if somebody broke in the house, or you know, I have no clue.

I don't know.

Okay.

I'm Maggie Robinson, cats And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.

This is Hands Tied, Episode two, the interview.

It's now nine two pm and Sandy Malgar finds herself in a small white room in Harris County Police Station, Texas.

She's hunched over a purple chair with her head buried in her hands, her long blonde hair covering her face.

She's still wearing the thin black robe, those fluffy socks, no shoes, but she's managed to change into a pair of jeans.

Sandy has declined going to the hospital and getting checked out, but agrees to an interview with the police.

As the door creaks open, Sandy sits up, lifting her face and tucking her hair behind her ears.

The dark circles around her eyes stand out against her waxy, pale skin.

A wooden cane is hooked over the arm of her chair.

Two stocky detectives enter, wearing almost matching outfits, dark kaki chinos, with one in a white shirt the other in a soft baby blue.

One of the cops places two small cups on the square table next to Sandy.

The room is cramped, so they have to do an awkward side step as they take their seats on either side of her.

Take a picture of titles.

That's Sandy.

Her voice soft and weak.

She points to her feet, telling the detectives that they didn't take a picture of her ankles.

They were tied, as well as her hands.

The detectives assure her that they'll get to that in a second.

I need to do a statement from you, okay, that's why we're here, and I will record in an old statement and give some questions from your answer me.

That's Detective Ruben Shawn Carousel, but everyone calls him Sean.

He's leading the murder investigation.

Case.

Number one two one seven six two sixty nine is Sunday, December twenty third, twenty twelve.

This is Sean Caronel Harris kind of shafs off with homicide sixty Henry forty two.

He's bald, middle aged, A bit what I expect when I hear both the words Texas and cop I can imagine he'd be comfortable grilling both meats and witnesses also with me.

It's Sargeant, do say.

Sergeant James Toussay is seated directly on Sandy's right.

He's also in his middle age, with a similar texas a Saqua.

Stargew saying, to identify yourself.

I'm sixty Henry thirty nine.

Okay, he's lucky to even be in the room.

Just two years ago, he was gored by a bull named Peanut and survived, leaving him with scars and the ultimate bar story.

The two detectives go way back their childhood friends, and both have come straight from the crime scene to the Harris County Sheriff's office.

Okay, ma'am, can you identify yourself for me?

As the only survivor and a potential witness to her husband's murder, the detectives need as much detail as they can get from Sandy, and as quickly as possible.

We'll start from the morning.

When you woke up today?

Where are you at?

Yes, in my closet, Sandy's hard to hear, she says, in my closet this morning?

Yes, Okay, what about yesterday?

Let's start yesterday?

Yesterday Saturday.

Uh.

We went up to.

Eat at.

Mexican restaurant.

I think it was the products the roles were.

Yeah, what time was that?

I was?

Who was whucos?

Whokos?

Uh?

I'm listening about eight.

I mean, I'm just guessing.

I don't know.

M h.

Sandy sounds a little sketchy.

She's slow to speak, vague and unsure of details.

But I can imagine she must be exhausted and traumatized.

Maybe no wonder she can't remember certain things.

While what time did you get home?

Probably midnight?

Okay, I'm just guessing that I don't know.

And when you got home?

What did y'all do?

We made some drinks, We gotten a ninjakuti.

Where they had sex and talked.

Man, what were y'all talking about?

My daughter?

That's their daughter, Liz his job.

Oh, here's gonna be turned.

And couldn't come stop.

Her hand lightly rests on her face for a second, as her voice catches, particularly the memory almost too much to bear.

Jim was going to retire next year, they were going to travel.

I go back and forward over the interview, trying to figure out what the cops are thinking and land on the moment.

They zero in on the events leading up to Jim's murderfly focusing on the moment Jim got out of the chacuzzie to check on their four barking dogs.

So the time when he got out to go check on the dogs, to go move the dog?

What time was that, when I say one or two in the morning.

And when he did that, what kind of noises did you hear?

And I think the jacuzzie was still running even when I got out.

The jacuzzie was running.

Racze was making noise is pretty loud, and you couldn't hear.

Anything over that.

I didn't hear anything, hear anybody scream no.

But you could hear the dogs bark, yeah, because they were.

Right outside our window.

Sandy says Jim was taking a while with the dogs, so she got out of the chacuzzie and went to her closet to get dressed.

Several hours later, I woke up and realized I was tied up and tried to flip over, and then I kind of got stuck where I was for the rest of the time.

That's all I remember.

I mean, I would tell you more if I remember.

Why, I just don't.

Do you have pain?

Do I have pain?

If I have pain in my head?

Yeah, She touches the left side of her head, like, what like I got hit.

On the head.

I don't know if I fell or was pushed or what, but just like all alongside this side.

And then I remember oke up and I thought I had had seizure because my muscles hurt in my head was just hurting or bad and usually.

That you have been having trouble with controlling my seizure.

So Sandy has a laundry list of health issues, something she says she's been struggling with even more in recent months.

Alongside the seizures, Sandy has had both her hips replaced, and she also suffers from lupus, which, for whatever reason, she doesn't disclose to the cops.

If you don't know, lupas is a really serious autoimmune disease that causes extreme fatigue and joint and muscle pain.

Another possible reason why She's foggy, not making sense, can't remember details.

She's not well, but the cops aren't sure.

I hurt all over and my head hurts.

How often do you have seizures like that?

I've been getting a more, lady, I'm not able to drive anymore.

How frequent.

This once a month?

Maybe the auras?

I get them all the time?

Do you take medication for that?

Okay?

And what was the last time he had one of those before today?

About them?

Togo at home?

And what happens when you have those seizures?

What's the symptoms?

Well, how do you feel when you have those?

Oh?

I have rash byds that tell me that I'm going to have one, and it's like I'm very forgetful, more than usual.

Did you have one of those today?

Yeah?

I've been having it one week actually all month?

So have you been forgetting things all month?

Mm?

Hmm?

And right after sometimes I can't even tell you my name?

Okay, And let me ask you this, And I asked you before.

You didn't answer my question.

Why are we here?

Do you know what has happened today?

My husband was murdered how.

I don't know.

I don't think he was shot.

What do you under what do you understand has happened?

Yeah?

Told you that he was part I saw him, he did.

Yes, When in tied me, I heard hysterical screaming and I ran over there and I.

Checked this post to see if there's anything we could do.

Yeah, I saw him.

Okay, I didn't know that.

I saw him.

As Sandy's voice breaks, she puts one hand across her forehead, pushing up her blonde Bang's eyes cast downwards.

And he touched him, touched his wrist.

I guess she isn't it?

Okay?

It's freezing cold, and I shouldn't have touched him, and I covered him.

And I should have done that.

What'd you go wrong with?

You know?

Something that was laying next to.

The jacket, Because Jack, he was very good.

It's really good care of me.

Sandy's sobbing, head down on her knees, her hair falling forward.

Until I got it.

I've got to tell my daughter, she says between her.

Sobs, Liz thousands of miles away, having no idea what her mom is going through in this moment, Sandra.

Part of our job is we work hundreds and hundreds of mrder Okay, and sometimes we were cold bloody killers.

They just don't want to street that would just kill somebody for nothing.

Okay.

Then sometimes were murders that they're an argument and something happens.

Okay, there's two different types of people.

Do understand, because if you're arguing with somebody and you lose it in your temper and the arguments what happened.

That's not what happened.

And I think I'm gonna stop talking because I think I'm gonna need a lawyer because I know how this works.

Let me ask you something.

It's all procedure for us to talk to you.

Okay, we want to find out the answer to this.

As bad as you do.

Okay, we do, we really do.

And we're not trying to cause you trouble, will cause you pain, but we have a procedure.

Are you familiar with a polygraph exam?

M hmm, a lie detector test?

You should be willing to take a polygraphic examp?

He's probably her.

No, not now, she says.

I'm just the nervous wreck right now.

It's just after midnight now, and Sandy Melgar walks back into the cramped interview room, leaning heavily on a cane.

She sits down and wrests the wooden stick against her chair.

Sergeant Dussea comes in and takes the seat nearest her.

How are you feeling, I've trying to drown the air down.

This building keeps us constant of them.

Sure you know.

I'll be up rue honest with you, There's some things don't add up in your story and what you're telling me.

Okay, maybe you could help me understand it.

Now.

You said you've been married thirty two years and you were supposed to celebrate that on.

The twelfth December twelfth is their actual anniversary, but they were celebrating on the twenty second.

Well, what reason was it that you did?

I was it feeling?

Well?

Okay, I noticed you walked with a cane?

Why is that?

I've had my hips replaced and I have a lot of joint pain.

How long ago did you have the hips replaced?

My left one.

About ten years ago or eleven, and then the right one about five years after that.

You've been walking with a cane ever since that?

It's just when'd you start?

It's on and off.

When it's colds, my joints hurt more, but late it's been more often because so how.

Long you think you've been walking to the cane out?

A couple of weeks, but some when the days are warmer, they don't really use it.

From the detective's point of view, Sandy's poor health doesn't rule her out as a suspect.

Quite the opposite.

Maybe she's playing it up using a cane she doesn't need to elicit sympathy.

You know, something I want you to understand is that we investigate something like this, Sandra.

I want you to understand that.

We go to all extremes.

You know, we don't quit.

You're going to see a lot of me, You're going to see a lot of my partner.

You are.

We're going to find out everything about you.

We're going to find out everything about your husband.

We're going to talk to everybody in your neighborhood.

We're going to talk to everybody that you're related to.

We're going to learn everything.

Because it's not me.

It's just so important that you be honest with us.

You know, I told you it's protocol that we start close.

To that victim that's you, Okay, And you know we didn't just walk into this ball game yesterday, and we can tell a whole lot of stuff.

By the way, that when we start.

With people, the way they react, the way they act, you need to understand that may I always show, may not always let that be be known to you.

But we're no fools.

You need to understand that too, okay.

And we've been doing this long enough where there's things we recognize.

You got to understand that too, Okay.

We talk to people all the time.

I never said you did.

I did ask you to take a polygraph test?

Yes, I did, and not shaking and freezing and.

What's your what's your explanation though, what's your excuse for not taking one?

It's not holding water, Sandra.

I'm just gonna be honest with you.

It's not.

I just don't want to take it.

And then it's used against me.

Now the gloves are off.

Are you covering something else?

Why would you take a polygraph?

Because I'm so stress right now I can't even think straight.

It's not a good reason.

Well, I just don't want to use against me, that's all I'll take it, But not just use against you because I'm stressed, and I mean I just.

Beyond beyond that.

Does your husband ever hit you?

No?

No, piscopal No, never did your husband tell you something that that made you black out.

No, doesn't work that way.

As your would your husband have a girlfriend signer, they'd be a jealous boyfriend, would coat.

Yeah, as your husband of cosey, he was going to leave you.

Yeah, they were taking plans.

We were making plans.

Who would leave me?

Do you think he's ever caught one of his family members that he was going to leave you?

To Sandy, that couldn't be further from the truth.

They were planning to go traveling together.

They were sitting in the jacuzzie talking about their plans for retirement, the trips they were going to take.

You know what I saw there.

When I saw your husband's body, that's a pretty violent attack.

Okay, And if he encountered something that.

Would do what we see there, you're going to hear it.

You're going to hear something.

And Sandy reiterates that she left the jets running when she went to get dressed.

Well, Jim brought in the dogs.

The jets, according to Sandy, are why she couldn't hear Jim's screen.

I don't care if you've got a tank cranked up in that bathroom with you, you're gonna hear something.

When somebody encounters somebody that's stabashed, somebody that violently, that many times you're gonna hear that.

You didn't hear anything.

I wish I had heard something.

I didn't.

See that.

What we're seeing there, the physical evidence that's there, and what you're telling us.

Just not adding up.

Sandra.

I'm not wanting to call you a liar, but what I'm saying to hear something.

You're the only person that was in that house.

You know we're here, we're going to try to.

Get to the bottom of this, but you're the only one that was in that house.

Well, it is ironic that you could you black out exact time when he's getting down and bludgeon I don't have an answer for multiple times like that, dying screaming for help.

Oh my gosh, just I don't know.

I don't understand that.

That's not right.

I mean, it's a lot of blood that he lost.

Could you hear him, No, I couldn't hear him.

Could you hear me all for help?

No?

Could you hear screaming?

I didn't hear it.

I mean he was in pain.

We know that.

He suffered a lot.

I need you to help me.

I need you to help me.

I need you to help me on this.

It's as though Detective Carousel is channeling Jim in his final moments.

Can you help me?

I need you to help me.

Andrew, can you help me?

I didn't hear anything.

Can you help me?

I need you to help me.

Did you hear anything?

I need help?

Please help me?

Screaming after screaming, after screaming, even pain, I need help.

The bizarre incantation goes on and on.

Help me, help me, help me.

Cousin's a nice guy.

He went through a lot of pain.

Help me until Sandy's finally had enough.

I didn't hear anything already.

I need help.

I need help.

Help me.

That's it, that's it.

I need a lawyer.

I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying to torture me.

Here.

I'm not torturing you.

I'm asking for help.

But they're not done yet.

She loved your husband, yes, I love my husband.

Yes, she wants to finally kill him.

Of course, I don't think you did.

Did you stage that at your house?

Now?

Stage it?

Yeah?

Did you plan this?

No?

No?

I did not.

Would you tell me if you did?

I wouln't even know where to start to stage it, and how am I going to tie myself up like that?

And I ain't gonna be able to get out of it.

I mean, I really was trying to get out of it.

Did you kill your husband?

No?

I didn't.

It's one fourteen am on Christmas Eve, nine hours since Sandy was found by her family, since they all learned that Jim had been murdered.

The interview's over and she's exhausted.

She's bewildered.

To Sandy, she can't fathom how this nightmare has happened.

Her husband's dead and somehow she's being accused for his murder.

I'm good an emergency.

I can stay calm.

I know what I need to do.

I can assess the situation.

You've been listening to Hands Tied, a new eight part true crime series from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.

New episodes will be released weekly, so subscribe or follow on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss out.

If you like the show, please help us by spreading the word or giving us a five star review.

I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham.

Sound design in mix is by Tom Brignall.

Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul.

The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw at iHeart.

The managing Executive producer is Christina Everett, and for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent,