Wisecrack is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free, but if you want exclusive bonuses and early access, subscribe to tenorfoot plus.

Enjoy over thirty shows, including Wisecrack, and over one thousand episodes completely ad free.

For more information, check out the show notes.

Enjoy the episode, Hey Wisecrack.

I'm extremely excited to share a conversation that I had at Denver Crime Con called When Systems Fail Culpability on Trial.

The conversation is myself, producer Jamie Albright, and host of Culpable Dennis Cooper.

We talk about what is a system failure and how do we, as pretty flawed humans, hold an unwieldy system to account.

Honestly, it was one of my favorite conversations that we had at Crime Con.

Both Jamie and Dennis are such prose and hearing their perspectives on the criminal justice system was really I open.

If you're not thoroughly exhausted of me and Ed, we do hope that you'll join us for an Instagram live Q and A on Friday, November fourteenth at eight o'clock Eastern Standard time.

It's going to be super informal.

You can just pop on the live and ask your questions or if you want, you can submit your questions in advance to at Wisecrack podcast on IG and we'll read and answer them in real time.

There will likely be a special guest appearance by Ed and my various dogs being Edie and Mando.

So there you go, a real reason to join the live.

Thank you so much, and we'll talk to you then.

When systems fail culpability on trial.

Okay, before we get too deep, Cash tell you because I to get to talk to you.

Amazing last night and I cannot wait to listen to wisecrack.

Seriously.

I mean, I'm so moved.

It was a good turnout.

It was a yeah, really was Oh I'm so glad.

Well we've had nothing but positive feedback here at the booth, So congratulations.

Thank you so much.

I appreciate that.

So our panel today is when systems fail Culpability on Trial, and we're joined today by Dennis Cooper, host of Culpable, writer producer host all of that let me make sure I say that, and Jody Tovey, producer of Wisecrack, as well as the individual who found this powerful story.

So both of you have new releases this month.

How does it feel after working so long and so hard to share this story with the world.

Will start with Jody.

It feels incredible, but it also feels I'm very tired.

Well, it's exhausting and very exciting, and you know, it took almost almost nine years to get this out there for people.

The crime that we're talking about in wisecrack happened in twenty fifteen, so it feels like even an even better opper tunity to share with everybody just because we've been sitting on the story for a second.

So it's great to share, yeah, danis.

Yeah for me.

You know, it's funny because people here asks like how long do you spend on these cases?

When you look at them and always feel so extreme, saying like, you know, on average, i'd say probably two years, maybe sometimes a little less.

Granted they're they're with you till the end.

You know, you follow them along, they'll be a part of me forever.

But I hear nine, you know years or whatever, and I think like, wow, now that, I mean, that's almost a lifetime.

That's crazy.

So sorry to pivot the question because I'm just curious fan boying, Now, how long did you know of that story?

Is it nine?

Years or is that just when are you using that as a reference of when the crime happened?

I met, Yes, nine years was when the crime happened.

I met ed the following year when he performed his set at the Fringe Festival.

Okay, and so, and you know, honestly, it just took I knew it was the thing.

I knew it was a story that needed to be shared, but because it was such an unusual story, a lot of people said no.

Yeah, so there was a lot of nos before Tenderfoot came in and said yes, we're interested and kind of saw how you can take those two feelings of laughter and drama and sadness and how closely those feelings live.

So yeah, yeah, it was Yeah, it was a lifetime.

That's not it's not inaccurate.

That is wild.

Yeah.

So well, I'm glad that that all worked out.

Yeah for me, Like I for season three, I'll just reference that I've been following it for over two years now, and it's you know, still unfolding, Like I have stuff I need to do and catch up on when I get out of here, So you know, that's just the nature of things.

And then you know, I look back now I can reflect on season one that was I started following I think in twenty eighteen, so so I've.

Almost reached my nine year status on that one.

You know, I'm still I just did a follow up with the mother in that case just a month ago, so, you know, like I said, it's these things are a long, ongoing journey to try and find justice or resolution for these victims.

But you know, we love doing it.

Yeah, And these are both tough cases in different ways.

And so when you share the story and you're wanting to know kind of what the reaction from people will be, what's that like for you as producers?

Well, you first, you've been through so many seasons.

To see the reaction from listeners.

Yeah, yeah, it's always special.

I mean, you know, and seeing reviews online or getting direct messages on social media, those types of things can be so moving.

And I'm so thankful that this community is so passionate about this stuff that they care enough to do those things and care enough to tell you, hey, maybe do something different next time.

Maybe you know, I didn't love this part or what ever.

And we need that criticism too, Like, I never want to think that I'm got this figured out, you know, Uh, in every case and every story is different.

But but yeah, I I love seeing that stuff.

I'm not I'm not an overly confident person, and so to be totally honest, I love nothing more than to see that positive reaction from from audience and and probably nothing beats being at a place like this and actually getting to have one on one interactions with people and and see them light up and think like, oh.

My gosh, like you're you're the host of this show.

And you know, I'd be lying if I said that didn't make me feel feel really good.

So I love to see that feedback.

And uh, to help segue over to you, Jody, I've I've loved watching, you know, kind of vicariously at the reactions to wise Crack so far, because it's just been very resounding.

And I've been in that position, you know, seeing a show climb up charts and seeing all the good feedback, and I'm just I'm just so happy for for all of you all and your your team, because I know how much work's probably gone under that.

I I probably have the least experience interacting here with crime con people.

I mean, I'm getting information literally live right now from the booth like, we love the show and it feels great.

It feels good.

I do think that's what's interesting though about this genre in general, is that they will give you notes, but they also will absolutely give you your props and say that really moved me, that was touching.

And I can't say the same about other styles of podcasting or other forms of media.

So I think that in crime con particularly to like put faces to the comments, I think is something super special.

And I think that at least for our show, since it has a live performance element to it, where there's a stand up comedian, Ed talks about his experience.

You know, it's great to watch people in the audience reacting real time, as we just said, probably off microphone, but it was.

It's really rewarding to see that real time feedback.

It's nice, and you know, and everybody everyone's so different too, you know.

It's I looked out last night when during our Q and A and I all that, you know, people looked, some people were confused, and I think they were trying to process how they felt about it, because people were laughing, people were crying.

Ed's had people run up on stage and give him a hug in the middle of the set, people have these very emotional responses to Ed's story and to Ed in general, just because he's a nice guy and really cool.

But yeah, it's very rewarding.

It feels really nice.

Can I see one more thing on that?

Just in case I don't have the chance to connect with him.

I talked to him briefly last night, just because I just really wanted to give him, you know, his props and tell him how moved I was by the performance last night.

But if you feel comfortable, can you speak at all on what it's felt like maybe for for Ed to see this reaction totally, He's.

Very hard on himself, so if people I think that his currency is laughs, but his story is both laughs and tears, and so to be I think that, you know, he's also trying to process real time that feedback as well.

But I mean, I think that he's people love him in America in general.

I think that he's and he's also such a lovely, kind person as well, and so I think he's used to, like I'm he just used to fans and reception that's really positive.

So I think being here and receiving that is great, And I you know, I don't want to.

I don't want to speak for him too much, but I think that this show is so different, and I don't want to speak as a comedian because I'm most certainly not, but there's there's a lot of feelings going on in the show as well, and so you're not you know, when you're used to people just like bent over sobbing for laughing, and you don't see people doing that immediately.

I think it can be confusing too, but I think it's because they're confused.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's an emotional rollercoaster.

Yeah, someone said that this morning, and I thought that's the perfect way describe it.

And I love that Ed was vulnerable at the end, and I think that that's reason that Tenderfoot saw this as so powerful.

It's a different way to deliver a very important story as well.

And so both Wisecrack and Culpable take a look at culpability in very different ways.

With Culpable, it's ongoing questions, often unanswered.

With Wisecrack, there is resolution, but still questions about culpability.

So I want to talk a little bit about that.

What do you think when with that question or statement, just.

The various forms of you knowlpability for culpable.

Yeah, well that was like the cool thing with with coming up with you know that that title for the series was you know I say sometimes like it can seem like such a very direct word.

A lot of people hear that and they just assume like it's more of like this finger pointing, like you know, who's to blame for this?

And absolutely like in terms of finding justice and resolution a case, like someone has to be to blame.

So that is an element of it, but it was also a way to you know, keep a somewhat broad series that can touch on so many different things.

You know.

The first series was focused on, you know, was this a suicide versus a murder and exploring both of those and you know, to to give an example, a real example there that was that challenged me was you know, when when everything felt like it was leaning in the direction of homicide, I got I received these these text messages.

That have been on earthed from from the victim that you know.

I think the easiest way to label it would be, you know, suicidal like texts, you know, threats of you know, not being happy with life and you know, I, you know, threatening to harm myself.

And this was years removed from when the crime happened, but it's still opened that door to like, you know, I didn't realize that the victim had this going on, and so that was tough.

You know, it's like, wow, well we need to include this, which you know is hard because there's always that element with the family too and you know, one to protect them.

But it was, it was it was relevant, and it kind of you know, moved the needle in a different direction and it needed to be part of the story.

So it's looked different with with every case, but with culpability, I just wanted to have a way to look at all the different elements of that from from the justice system and how it may fail people to you know, mental health issues and how that could lead to.

To some of these tragedies we come across.

I mean, on case review, we've explored you know, things like as intricate as like Castle Lull and as far as like you know, crimes that happen on your front doorsteps.

So you know, I want to be able to explore every single avenue because I think at the end of the day, there's so many things that can tie into to that term.

There's I think that's a great way to say it, which is there's obviously lead to the you know, for all of our cases, there's it's an open and shut case, right, you know that that's what they is, that what they say on law and orders for a minute.

But but there's shades of culpability and there's systems in place that don't do great service to some people.

We don't set people up for success in many ways, and I think that that's something that really resonates with me about what you're saying.

Particularly for the murder that we talk about Brett Rodgers in Wisecrack, there's a big question about what his mental health state was.

In his mental state when he left the scene of the crime, was it a crime of passion?

Was even in his right mind at that point if you ask the criminal justice system, the answer is he absolutely was.

He was unable to be declared incapacitated in any way and was tried as an average person.

My instincts, having now researched the case, I feel the opposite.

But also in the same way.

You know, in the UK we have social they have socialized medicine, which is a huge piece of this story that we unfortunately, you know, give me some more episodes, dontled.

I'd love to go into it, and I'd love to me to help me, truthfully, But like, I do think that that is one of those things that made a very big impact in our story that we need to continue to explore how how certain certain organizations fail and when, and also they're not inclined to help.

There's numbers they have to meet, you know, we have to get people in, we have to get people out.

If we give you this diagnosis, then this is the chain reaction that we will then have to pick up for the rest of your natural life.

So we're loathed to give you said diagnosis.

We're to load to give you access to X, Y and Z, and so I think that's a big piece of this story that I think we still want to explore.

Truthfully.

Yeah, I was just gonna just to add to that.

Like with the season three specifically, it's been interesting because again when I did season one, I felt very surprised, sort of blindsided to realize like, oh, there's a mental health element to this, whereas with season three, I was coming from experience then was kind of excited to look at a case like Danny's where he was diagnosed bipolar, he was prescribed lithium, and these things come into the story as you listen to it, and very much informed the popular narrative around the town of what probably happened to him, that you know that he probably did this to himself in some way.

It was you know, he either took his own life or he had this episode or had some.

Sort of drug overdose interaction.

I mean, it was crazy to me, and it moved me to want to like really find out what happened to him, because you know, it just felt like they had made this bucket there, like it had to be some one of.

These things that happened to him.

He was very imperfect, and his family'd be the first to tell you that, and I think that very much informed the narrative there.

But interestingly enough, looking at from the the you know, the authorities perspective is to get that contrast again, like with Christian Andreacchio's case, it was forty five minutes open, closed suicide, and I was like.

It doesn't seem right.

You know, I don't come from that experience.

You know, maybe that's maybe that's a normal time to spend an investigation.

I don't think it seems like enough, so that bothered me.

But with Danny's case, I mean, they investigated it despite despite feeling like, you know, it was probably some freak accidental death or even a suicide.

They did work that case like it was a homicide.

And that was an interesting element to dive into because I didn't expect that when we got the case files.

I I genuinely expected to not see a whole lot of investigation, not see a lot of hard questions being asked, those types of things, And I was humbled when I saw otherwise and realized, like, Okay, they.

Took this seriously despite the common narrative there.

Yeah, I remember when you were able to get access to the interviews and to the docs.

I felt surprised by that because it seemed the case of been forgotten.

And I think that's when you realize.

That there's multiple things happening at the same time.

So how do you balance the narrative and storytelling when you're looking at so many different pieces that might have played into what occurred.

Well, it's always a challenge.

I mean for me, I just lean into it as much as possible.

You know, I've always I've always been attracted cases that just they challenge you, They challenge your view of things, They make you think of all these different possibilities, and so for me, I definitely don't shy away from it.

If anything, I jump at those cases usually.

I think that's why I was probably so moved by listening to the performance of Wisecrack last night, is because I mean, that's just so up my alley, because I got enough of a taste of it to realize, like, oh, this is one that will probably challenge me to the end of how I feel about how I feel about the victims, how I feel about the the the perpetrator in that, and these different things, Like you could tell that there's a lot more to that story that's going to come out in the podcast that I'm stoked to to to listen through.

I just I've always enjoyed those types of things.

I don't want to.

I don't want to lead anyone to a conclusion, even though the ultimate goal is to to find the truth and get resolution.

I don't want to tell a story in a way that's that's pointed or leaned in one direction that you know everyone's going to come to the same conclusion at the end.

I would rather you know, give people what they need to to understand the case and the ins and outs of it, and let them come to their own conclusion as far as what they think happened to.

The victim, who's culpable, uh.

And and and those various you know, layers of culpability like that could that could have played into it, you know, how they feel about the characters and at the victims, those types of things.

You know, I want to keep people on their toes and kind of let them come to their own conclusions.

Through to the end.

I feel the exact same way.

I think the hardest part of telling these stories.

We know what the facts are if we've done our job.

We present obviously what law enforcement knows and what they're willing to share, and then you collect the interviews of the personal anecdotes from the potential victims, eyewitnesses, whatever.

But outside of that, I think the trick is just making sure that you show all those various shades of interaction within the facts of the story.

It's really hard, you know, it's really hard because again I don't want to you know, I worked on this one for a second, and I was the same way with the roller coaster.

What is going on.

I mean, truly, we have a meager six episodes, but the arc really is do I trust this person?

Do I not trust this person?

And then obviously the bigger question, which is why I did the bully come to Ed's house that night?

What was on his mind?

You know, in some way we're not asking what or who because we know what and who.

It's why and how, and those questions are much more gray than they are black and white for the what and who, and so it's hard.

But I also, yeah, it's challenging.

I like beings.

You know, people want to hear.

I think people want to hear those stories.

We are so far deep into the true crime genre and television, film and podcasting and storytelling books.

We've got narrative nonfiction and all kinds of things.

And the end of the day, you know, I think that these super fans that we're with right now, they're interested in those gray areas as much as they're interested in the black and white, and so it's it's nice that I think they the fans, have evolved with the genre and that it's something that you and I actually like to do.

Yeah, we prefer those kinds of things.

That's a great way of putting it, for sure.

You know, for me, I always I never wanted to tell it in a way that's like I've figured this out, and here's my presentation on me figuring it out.

It was more supposed to be a feel.

Live and in the moment, and you're learning it as I'm learning it, and come along for the ride with me.

Because there's a lot of very smart people, a lot of very passionate people in this community who have helped me tremendously, you know, sending in ideas, tips, those types of things, and so you know, I always wanted to make it feel like, you know, hey, armchair detectives like you, come along for this with me.

You know, you're in this with me.

It's not just me telling this this journey that I was on, like, I want you to feel a part of it too.

So so yeah, I've always tried to mimic that, you know, as I've done each season as culpable.

I hope you're enjoying this episode live from Crime Con.

Want to get aha, I'd start on Crime Con twenty twenty six in Vegas right now.

You can save ten percent of your tickets with our exclusive promo code.

Just head to crimecon dot com to grab your standard badge today and use promo code tenderfoot at checkout.

Don't wait locking your spot now for the ultimate true crime experience, and we'll see you in Las Vegas next May.

Now back to the show.

So you touched on this a little bit earlier, but in wise Crag Brett was found legally competent to stand trial.

Yes, did you think that would be the case when you first learned about the case and did you ever change your opinion at any point?

The first thing that I saw once ed told me the name.

So in the set when I first listened to it in Edinburgh, he used a different name.

So I had to like hunt this person down and become a stocker myself to find out exactly what this person's name is.

But that moment when you told me his name is Brett Rodgers, you go to your Google machine and the first thing you see is all the very bloody details of the crime.

It does not look like a crime just on the very surface from the three ten thousand foot view that it is somebody who's of right in their right mind at that moment, and so just being very frank, that's what that was my first instinct when I looked at that.

It was across three hours.

It was using like household kitchen knives that would break and then he'd grab another one, and you know, lots of defensive wounds.

But ultimately the victims, his victims were you know, very much under the influence.

But it made it a very bloody crime as a result because their blood was so viscous.

It was everywhere.

So when you read the details, you're just like, this doesn't feel like a planned thing.

That was a minimum the first instinct, and that's kind of and that's how I started into that process.

I mean, just being honest, like you know, I we try to stay unbiased as possible, but that was my first thought.

And then when you actually look at the courtroom, to the trial itself, if you just read the transcripts, didn't know any of the context, you would one hundred percent believe that this person was also of sound mind when they did this.

But the more that you talk to his dad, the more that we talk to everybody who knew him, there there was some shades of illnesses that might have been undiagnosed.

That's just the reality.

But how much does that play into it.

I don't know, yeah, you know, and that's kind of still the mystery.

That's the part I'm most excited to follow along with.

I think in that is the probably what will be I'm assuming an evolving journey around around Brett and your maybe your thoughts on him or why he did this, you know, like you said, because it's interesting from my perspective because more often than not, you know, when I pick a case, you know, I start with the family, and you know, for the most part, families are going to paint the victim and as good of a light as possible.

You know, some are more forthcoming than others, and some don't hold back.

But for the most part, you're gonna get, you know, a really good image of them.

And I'm sure it's got to be a totally different animal coming from the different side like you all did and seeing this, you know, if what you said is true, as far as starting with the crime scene, it's probably got to be a challenge to see this, like to only be able to see this person is probably a monster off part, just based off this crime scene and what they did.

And then you know, to slowly peel.

Back the layers and we realize like, huh, you know, there's there's a lot more to his story there that probably.

I mean, I guess I have to imagine that'd be a challenge, because I know it is on my end, you know, always getting this this good picture of this victim.

The more you dig, you realize like they're human, just like any of us.

They've made mistakes along the way.

You know, who knows, maybe they even have a degree of culpability.

And so it's like from your angle is like total opposite to that, And that's why I'm excited to check that out.

As far as the first image you got of him versus probably your thoughts and your image of him now years removed.

You're our best promoter for this podcast.

Thank you so much.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, no profit.

One thing I will say is I think that's what I love about working at tender Front.

I mean, Dennis was literally like, do I get to me ed after the show?

We're like, yes, we are, We're a team here.

But just the love and the support from one creator to the other, and I think that just shows you what a wonderful job you guys have done in crafting this story.

And you mentioned something I want to touch on a bit.

Has your personal definition of justice changed while looking into cases, peeling back the layers and exploring culpability, And that's.

Actually for both of you, I think it has to an extent.

I mean, at the end of the day, it's hard to.

Not associate justice with resolution closure for victims in these cold cases that I look that I look in to investigate.

I mean, you can't separate the two.

But what I have learned over time is again there's a lot of depths to culpability.

There's every case is different, every victim is different, and you realize, like getting that justice and resolution is a long shot.

It's what we strive for no matter what, and we'll continue to in these cases until they are resolved.

But at the same time, so.

Many of these cases need attention, They need a new break, a new lead, They need people like us to tell those stories.

And so for me, while it may not be getting justice by definition, I've connected with enough families now and worked enough cases to realize that for some of them, it still feels like a degree of justice just to be able to get that story out there, to be able to get a new lead, some new information, to be able to bring life back into this investigation that set their cold for many years, and so so I always can take you know, I think some bit of rest in that and knowing that just like some progress was made and that these things have been revealed, like let's learn from them.

You know, maybe you shouldn't spend a little longer than forty five minutes on that investigation.

Maybe you should.

Have done a little more digging, you know, before ruling it a suicide.

Those types of things.

Again, I could list them all day, because every case is different, and the good things in them and the mishaps in them look different with every case.

But ultimately, I just want there to be some takeaway at the end, at the very least of like how can we learn and grow from this as a society, as you know, law enforcement agency, as the justice system, you name it.

I definitely agree with you every and yes, absolutely every different.

I just think that my sense of sense of justice has not changed necessarily.

Right is right and wrong is wrong.

There are consequences for actions, and we live in certain governments and these are these are side consequences for actions.

But I think it's made me question how are we helping people?

Are we even helping people is healthy?

Does helping actually while might be under the guise of helping, is it actually hurting?

Which is really important because I think that there's a lot of people who are part of these checks and balances, but they're not part of like the how often do we do post mortems on autopsies and post mortems right?

And how all these agencies work together or against some of these people.

What's really what's interesting about this particular case that happened in England for Wisecrack is that they had a separate document called the domest to Comma Side Report, and that really, I think once we were able to get access to that just blew my mind.

Which is an impartial, charitable agency that does receive government funds to do evaluations on domestic violence cases and family cases in particular, and they get access to everyone and then they compile that report and then they say, here's what we did wrong, here's what we did right.

Wow, it's interesting spoiler alert.

They mostly say they did things right, but if you read the report, I think you might feel a little bit differently.

And it's you know, and it's not intended to be critical, it's just intended to gather information and follow trends.

And I just think that that's one piece that we don't have in America.

And I know that there's lots of people, lots of even government agencies that are responsible for that, but not in a open published way.

You google Brett Rodgers Domestic Comma side Report, you will find it.

You will find one hundred families link.

So if you are just a concerned citizen who's interested, everyone has access to this information, you know.

And I don't feel the same way.

I think over here in America it's a lot harder.

It's a lot more mercurial.

You need the dentists and the jodies to bother people until they're like, fine, take it right.

And I agree with you.

Looking at that report or the analysis of him, it almost allowed you.

It allowed you to dive deeper into who he was and what he may have been experiencing, which made me again go, how was he found legally competent stand trial?

He was being treated with medication that would have been treatments for schizophrenia, but never ever received the diagnosis, and that even in prison after he had been convicted and went to prison for thirty two years, he was also still receiving that treatment.

They moved him around a different jails, but they put him in a prison that was specifically designed to help people who very obviously have mental health issues.

So we all knew what was going on, but we never actually said it.

It was never written down, it was never recorded.

And I and listen, I know that that's a big stigma as well for someone to accept that I have fill in the blank issue.

But at the same time, I don't know.

The more that I think about these cases and the things that we're talking about, I just think that isn't it just better to be transparent and to record the metrics in the same way that we know when people turn off our podcasts.

Yeah, don't you want to actually know where we stand as a society?

Yeah, and what's you know, who's helping, who's not, who's intending to help but is harming.

I just think that's the data is really important.

Are there any risk of exploring culpability when storytelling?

The first thing that comes to my mind is lawsuits.

Dennis can compuse that.

Yeah, I just obviously the highest risk.

But even outside of those kinds of things, Yeah, Yeah, you don't make tons of friends doing what we do.

Now, Yeah, someone's always going to be mad in some way about how their story was represented, regardless even again, like I got a woman who sent me a message on Instagram the other day who listened to the podcast, and she said, I think that Ed and Pete, who was the father of a murderer of Brett, are heroes and they're absolutely incredible.

I was not expecting that feedback, but it was because and I think and I think the context that she was implying was that because they sought help, the survivor sought help and came out on the other side, and so But but again, these are all just like I'm just constantly surported by the responses in general.

But yeah, there's a lot of risks because I again, I thought it would have gone the other way.

I thought it would have been finger pointing against X, Y and Z and it wasn't.

So yeah, I think, but you but yeah, I think if you're trying to be like a darling in a Sweetheart, this might not be the jump for Yeah.

No, I really couldn't put it any better than that.

I mean, just from the start.

Yeah, probably probably the biggest risk.

Is on the legal side.

You know, and that's we've we've learned that that can happen, and we've come out on the other side of that and in a good way, and you learn from it.

But even on a small.

Scale, Yeah, like, at the very least, you are going to upset some people doing this, whether it's law enforcement, whether it's you know, persons of interest in the case, whether it's the victim's family.

All those things are are possibilities.

I've done all of those, you know.

I've I've upset a mother really badly and then had to you know, try to mend that relationship and thankfully was able to.

I've definitely upset persons of interest, definitely, you know, upset law enforcement.

So those things are just kind of part of it, you know.

I just try to be as as respectful and honest as as possible.

I'm you know, and just you just hope for the best.

But but that's just kind of the nature of it, because these are very, very sensitive and vulnerable topics and stories we're exploring, and and the nature of putting the truth out there is like the truth is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

But at the end of the day, that's that's what we have to put out there is the truth.

So you just.

It is what it is.

Really, Yeah, you just kind of have to take a journalist spirit and be tough question Mark.

Yeah.

Yeah, And I do think some people forget that another risk could be stigmatizing someone with mental health or stigmatizing stigmatizing someone with substances.

It's important to know that people can be a offender regardless of the background, and they could be an offender regardless.

If they have any of those isms.

Right, So, I think that you both do a wonderful job of peeling back the layers without just saying this is why it happened, and we should blame this person.

In the story.

So I applaud you both for that.

Appreciate that, Thank you, thank you.

Yeah.

So listeners often want conclusion beginning, middle end.

Jody, you have so much experience, and you know production and award winning and your your big way out here.

How do you meet the audience where they are and ensure they're getting a full story, even if it's not a clean ending, which Dennis knows culpable often isn't.

Yeah, it's so, it really is so difficult.

You want to I want to offer whoever spending the time with our storytelling as much of a conclusion that I can offer.

I mean, in theory, that's what they expect, right, Like, there's some sort of expectation and promise from a listener to a host or a narrator or whatever you want to call it.

But I think at the end of the day, for at least I can what I can say, at least for Wisecrack is that you know, I think that Ed's character arc across the episodes, it is very much as much of a roller coaster that he's on about learning about himself and looking back at his childhood and saying, oh, that wasn't at all what I thought it was.

If you are hopefully invested in him as a person, I think you will find a satisfying conclusion.

But if you are I really just being very frank, if you're somebody who is just in it for the blood and the gore and wants to get in and get out and find out guilty not guilty, this might not be the one for you.

There is some very interesting shades that we explore and hope, and I guess my biggest hope is that myself and Charles who wrote the podcast.

At least you're invested in Ed's transformation using the information that we uncover, and that would be then hopefully a satisfying conclusion.

Yeah, back to your question from earlier about you know, the definition of justice for us again, like the best conclusion for us, for families, for audiences is always going to be resolution to the case and the nature of what I do.

It's like, that's not in any way a guarantee.

It's just something that you're striving for.

Uh, And so you know, I always say like the last episode has always been the hardest one to write because you just that would be the only true ending that would like I probably leave you and what you would feel, like your audience, how they would feel about it's fully satisfied.

But that's at the end of the day, a long shot that we're striving for.

Not every story is going to end like you know, like the Terrigrin's case and up in Vanish that's not It can happen, but it's not a guarantee.

It's just something that we strive for.

So that last episode is always so hard to write because one you're trying to find the best way to put a Bow on this very long, emotional roller coaster investigation that you've been on.

But you also realize, like if you haven't reached that conclusion you're striving for, that the story's not technically over with yet, So like you also have this feeling of like is this even really going to be the end of the series, Like do we need to come back and do more, because you know we're going to keep exploring this until we get that resolution.

So like, I'm still working on I'm still looking.

Into cases that I've wrapped up, like season one Christian Dracus, season two, Brittany Stikes.

I'm still following up those families.

I'm still looking into those when I wrap up season three, I got a list of things I want to do with those, So you know, I don't even know if the end that I.

Told to those is actually the end of those stories yet.

So that's all always the hardest one to write, because you know, you want to give audiences the best conclusion possible and they're going to have their opinions on that, but we just got to do the best we can.

It's hard because you don't go again, the point being we're not We're normal people who just like look at things and go, well, I kind of have an opinion about that, but at the end, But at the end of the day, I think if we come in with the end of the story in mind, we never did a real investigation.

Absolutely, so it is a real risk I think on our part because we spent so much time and we're like, oh no, there's no end to point whether how do you tell the story?

Is it?

You know?

And I you know, you go to someone and they're like, well, there's no end, and I'm like, good point, excellent, excellent work.

We got to keep working.

And so Wise Crack is out.

Yes, what can listeners expect from this season?

Why should they tune in?

And what's next for you?

Well, we've just launched I guess I'm not sure when this is coming out, but at the beginning of What led the Wey in September, so we'll be running through October with new episodes.

Very exciting, I think the again, I think if you're I kind of see this for fans like a true crime one oh two.

It's not a one oh one because it's much more of a character exploration and again we're asking the question why, if why is something that you find yourself asking a lot.

This is the story for you.

If you've ever been bellied before as a child and then had that person come back in your life, this is a story for you.

I think that if you like stand up comedy, obviously this is a story for you.

Ed's hilarious.

But I also think that there's two families involved in this story that live right next door to each other, had very similar lives, and their children were very similar and then went in complete opposite directions.

So I hope that you know, I think we can all look back in our childhood and think of the family that we were all friends with, and now you're like, where are they, what are they doing?

Or what happened if something this thing dramatic had happened.

So I think that those if you're interested in any of those three things, I think this would be something that people might enjoy.

And I hope that they'll listen what's next.

I just told you I'm taking a nap, and then an app is so hard in the car.

That's where I'm goness And yeah, I don't you know this is a close ended story.

You mean, we know who the killer is, and we did an exploration and obviously of all the people involved in the case.

But I have a feeling based on all the reactions of what we've seen at Crime Con, particularly as performance last night, I don't think that this is the end, because it's amazing how everybody wants to share their own personal stories of trauma.

So you know, season two, it's probably with amongst the listeners is the reality for us, and so I'd certainly encourage people to reach out and share their opinions and thoughts, and also if you need an event, if you need to talk about stuff, we're here for you too, well.

Culpable yes out.

What can they expect this season, Yeah, a little bit of everything.

You know.

For one, I think you can if you enjoyed season one of colpol Christiandiaki, I do think there's some parallels to that.

I think there's some shades of that in this story.

So I think fans of that season will certainly enjoy digging into this with me.

It's kind of like a meshing of.

Time frames as far as like you're going to hear reporting from ninety eight and you're gonna hear reporting from two thousand or twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five, you're gonna hear recordings from nineteen ninety eight, and you're gonna hear recordings from twenty four and twenty twenty five.

And so it's been a real challenge to work that because you know, the cases I worked before, Christian and Britney's were nowhere near as old as this.

When I started following Danny's case, it was a twenty five year old cold case.

We're coming up on in October twenty seven, it'll be twenty seven years.

So it's been it's been an interesting one, in a challenging one because you learn that with time.

You know, obviously the case changes hands several times, people pass away, people move on people.

One thing I've really learned in this season, this will come up throughout it is like how it challenging to think, like how well can you trust people's memory that much longer, especially when you can hear what they said in nineteen ninety eight versus what they're saying now, And it'll really kind of make you think.

And I think you'll be on your toes to the end.

I think you'll again, like I've always wanted to lean into that, I don't I want it to feel like there's a lot of possibilities there because genuinely there are, and I think you're going to feel that with this case as far as not knowing, you know, was was he killed or or did someone murder him as as a homicide or did some other accident happen?

How did he end up in that field?

You know, did somebody put him there or or is that where the crime happened.

And then as far or as who's responsible, I think you're going to have all sorts of thoughts on who may have played a role in this in some way or who may have more information.

So I think you'll be on your toes at the end.

I know I have been.

It's actively releasing right now, and like I said, I'm still digging into it and I'm still working on the story as it's unfolding in kind of real time.

So you know, if you're into that, then then you'll enjoy this too, because it's about is about as a live investigative, you know, in real time as you can be with this type of with this type of work we do so cool and.

Then well, I applaud you both for the work that you do, diving deep into stories, looking into culpability, looking deeper than what's on the surface.

So congratulations to your success and I can't wait to see and hear what's next.

Thank you, Thanks Jamie,