Declan (00:00) everyone, welcome back. is Long Game, the Heat at Rivalry podcast. I'm Declan, this is Sylvan and we are going to be discussing the episode 3 that we just watched. Now this had a bit of a different vibe to it, completely different characters, ⁓ a bit of a twist on the story. So now this one focuses on Kip and Scott who for those that don't know are actually the couple from the very first book in the series by Rachel Reed. And yeah, it's very interesting that they decided to put this episode in the middle of the series rather than doing it from the start. So, Sylvan, you've not read the book. So what do you think of that choice or how was it for you as someone coming in and not knowing who these guys are? Silvan (00:49) Yeah, I really like the opening scene at the Olympics where you have that replication of the scene with, I don't know who the third character is, but you've got Scott, you've got Shane, and then this third character for the life of me, I remember his name. I'm gonna get roasted online for this, but I like that they sort of replicate that same scene, but then you've got this divergence where you have sort of Scott's pan and we focus on that sort of point of view. And then that Wolf Parade song comes in that we all know and love now. Declan (01:01) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Silvan (01:19) And so I thought that was a really artistic, really stylistic choice to make. And I quite enjoyed that. I wasn't sure what was coming. I knew there would be some kind of divergence from some of the spoilers and things like that and some of the clips that had already come up online. But can I just say out of the three episodes that we've seen so far, this is my favorite. This is the most rom-com type that I have been looking for. and it appeals to the inner millennial that watched 10 things I hate about you and how to lose a guy in 10 days and you've got mail and all those all those 2000s rom-coms that sort of really tugged at my heart with this episode. Declan (01:58) Yeah. ⁓ 100%. So it's funny you say that my boyfriend, this is his favorite episode as well. And he actually prefers Kipp and Scott over Shane and Ilya. Yeah, I know crazy. But for the same reason, it's just like they're so cute. They're so romantic. It's just like, you just loved it. And I can totally see the appeal. something about their relationship is a lot more simple, it's a lot more sort of star-crossed, it doesn't have to be fought for as much, if that makes sense, even though obviously there's massive issues and complications with the relationship, there is something very sweet and simple about their attraction, it's not complicated by all these billions of immaturity and sort of the pitfalls of youth, you could say, because obviously Kip and Scott are older, so they are, I think. Scott is approaching his 40s. think Ilya actually makes a comment saying that he's an old man or something like that. yeah, he is older. Scott's also, or Kip is a bit older as well. So they're a bit more mature. They are sort of more aware of themselves in terms of wanting to have a relationship. So yeah, it's a completely different dynamic from the one that we've been seeing. And there's a lot less angst between the two of them, I think. And that also makes it sort of easier to watch in that sense. Silvan (03:23) so for me as someone who have who hasn't read the books Why do you think they've slotted this in here? Because if this is based on game changes, which is book one Declan (03:33) Mm-hmm. Silvan (03:35) What's the purpose of doing this now? Do you think? Declan (03:40) I think the reason why is because their story is integral to Ilya and Shane's story. So there are elements of their story that influence the sort of wider hockey world that sort of Rachel Reed has built up, the one that Jane and Ilya exist in. And there is something that does happen later in their book that's not shown in this episode, but is very, important for the wider plot. And the reason why I don't think they just start out with this one is because the first book is one of the least popular in the series. So it is. I personally gave it three stars because, yeah, three out of five. Yeah, I didn't really enjoy this book that much. Silvan (04:15) Wow. Declan (04:19) far far prefer their version in the TV show. I think it's tighter, they're much more likeable, it's a lot more active a plot. So it is, there seems to be a lot more going on, they seem more proactive characters. Whereas in the book I felt like especially Scott was sort of oblivious to how hurt Kip was being for a very long time. He didn't sort of see that element of him. sort of wasting away. It's like, I can't remember her name now, but she was basically like, you know, he deserves sunlight. That conclusion doesn't happen all that fast in the book. In fact, it really drags out. And a lot of this book is centered around Scott sort of justifying what he's doing to Kip in terms of keeping him hidden and things like that. And Kip is a little bit of a pushover as well in the book. he's a lot less active, a protagonist, and he is more reactive to what's going on. And he has this whole plot about him not knowing what to do with his life and not really taking action or being proactive. Like his friends, like in the show, he like goes off to college himself, I can't fully remember now because I've not reread the book in so long, but he's very inactive, a protagonist, whereas in this one, he has a lot more agencies, a lot more in control, a lot more likeable. So I can see exactly why they decided not to run with this book as like the starter because I think it works more as like a condensed story. Silvan (05:42) That's interesting to me because I'm thinking from a showrunner's perspective, I've got this whole other couple, because that's what they are, and this whole other storyline. Why aren't I making this a whole season or half a season? Why am I not fleshing this storyline out? But it sounds like, is there not enough material to justify a whole season? Declan (05:50) Mm-hmm. not with their characters, no, because their characters aren't as complex. they aren't, I think they're a bit more straightforward. So they are. It's very easy to break down. Scott is an orphan. He doesn't have a lot. He has some friends, not a lot. And his sort of circle is, you know, not large enough and he's very isolated. And so he wants a romantic connection and his struggle is coming to terms with I pursue the romantic connection and cure this loneliness or do I stick to my career and I stick this out and I try my best to make a relationship with Kip work on the down low? It's not a very complex character journey. He's basically coming to terms with himself in terms of what he actually wants now, what's going to make him happy. And then with Kip, his is grow up basically. He needs to learn to stand up for himself. He needs to assert what he wants as well in the relationship. And he needs to also take agency of what he's doing in his life. And throughout the book, both of them do sort of get there. But it's just not all that much of an engaging character story. It doesn't have the drama or the complexity of heated rivalry, which is the much more interesting book, much more interesting couple. So I think. that was a big sort of the citing factor in keeping this so condensed. Silvan (07:24) That's interesting. And so without spoiling the first book for anybody, how much of this episode takes up the book? Declan (07:32) like 80%. Silvan (07:35) so we've read in vertical commas the whole book. Declan (07:36) Yeah, you've read the entire, more or less the entire book except Toy Ants. Silvan (07:42) ⁓ interesting, okay. Because I mean, I'm gonna side with your partner, with your boyfriend here. This is so far my favorite episode. Like this had me kicking my feet under the stool kind of feeling. This is me what a Hollywood type of rom-com romance would look Declan (07:44) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it is a really fun story and it's a really fun romance and it works as that sort of unfortunate lovers that can't quite be together but they're so both lovely and amazing and nice and they deserve each other. It's basically that and yeah that's just it's just timeless that those kind of romances are always going to get people and I think having it in this show and having it be a queer relationship for a change is just really nice because so many queer stories are just generally quite difficult and they look at the experience of being queer in a very dark way which is important. It's important that stories like that are told but you rarely get this fluffed up really fun lovely thing and while there is issues and there are queer centric issues within the episode they're not impossible to overcome and you still feel that love and that sort of light from the relationship that just makes it all worthwhile to watch and read. yeah, I think that's why it has that sort of popularity, why everyone enjoys this one so much. I know some people were saying that they didn't like it at all, like they didn't want it and they don't want to do these characters. I think a lot of book people would say that, but I'm perfectly happy with the way that they turned out. I much prefer them in the show. And I think that you know, Jacob Tierney has done a really good job of portraying that story and sort of shortening it and putting it in a format that it actually does a lot better and it shines a lot better and the characters are actually a lot more likeable and fully realized. Silvan (09:34) Yeah, and I can see why some people might take umbrage to this episode or to this storyline, because it does break the Ilya and Shane storyline dramatically. Like, there's a big pause through this storyline. And back in the day when we had TV shows that had like 22 episodes or 24 episodes, you know, this would have been cast a filler episode, essentially, because it doesn't proceed the main storyline. It's more of like, this is a supporting cast kind of thing. Declan (09:37) Thank you. Mm-hmm. yeah. That's right. Silvan (09:59) So I can see why some people might be hesitant or resistant to this episode, but I think this episode still fulfills that quota of people who want to see this type of story played out, who are attached to these characters, for example. Now, I want to break down the episode. so this opening, well, the second opening scene we get is Scott running in that compression shirt or t-shirt. Declan (10:15) Yeah. Silvan (10:28) Bless the costumer on this show because you can see everything. I love them for it. I'm talking about like you can see every line of AB that he has. Declan (10:32) Who decided that? I honestly think that the show was ran by the horniest people in the world. They knew exactly what they were doing. Eternally grateful that they did. But yeah, the actor he plays, the play Scott Francois, I can't remember his name. Yeah, Great casting, really, really good casting. He's very, very good in this show. He's in something else very familiar to me as well, and I can't quite remember it now. Silvan (10:54) I don't know. Declan (11:05) But I've definitely seen him before, but he's brilliant in this. There's the way he portrays like vulnerability and stuff like that there for you. This episode is just so amazing. I really like Kip's actor as well. I think he has that like fun bubbly sort of personality and that sort of awkwardness. That's just that's just right enough that it's really sweet and cute and not annoying. And I just I think it was also really good casting. All the casting in this show is amazing. All of it. can't fault any of it. Silvan (11:33) I mean, they're all just so ridiculously good looking though and they all have abs. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining at all. But when we think about sort of this introduction to Scott, so we see him in the first episode as a very moment flash in the pan if you missed it, you missed it kind of thing. But I like the voiceover of the announcer sort of at this point where they're talking about, you know, Kip losing sort of. Declan (11:38) Yeah, it's not fair. Yeah. Silvan (12:01) games and not scoring as much. So it sort of sets up the precedent about why sort of he's in the space, the headspace that he's at. Declan (12:03) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, there seems to be a lot of pressure on him as well. And that seems to really play into the whole dynamic then that he ends up with Kip. Obviously, the answers suggested to be that this sort of loneliness he's missing something from his life, he's listening, he's missing like a motivation or just something to drive and push him forward. And that comes in the form of the relationship with Kip. Now in the book, Scott is running with this sort of private thought that if I won the Stanley Cup, then I get to have my relationship and that's his driving force. So his intention is to, you know, win the Stanley Cup and they can be together. That's his goal. Now the problem is that could take years and there's no guarantee he can do it. He's one individual. He can't carry the whole team. But I think in these earlier episodes, they're sort of like trying, he's trying to find that motivation to want to do this and to sort of win these games and take it that far. So yeah, whenever Kepp shows up then and he has his little smoothie and that becomes like his little ritual. It's very, very cute, but it's also a good signifier for how this relationship is going to influence his game and his career. Silvan (13:23) Yeah, and that interaction, that meet-cute as you call it, it's very, it's adorable. that interaction is so wholesome and it's so sweet. And it really contrasts what we've seen with Ilya and Shane, where it's antagonistic right from the beginning. This is saccharine, this will give you a toothache to quote clueless. Declan (13:26) it is a meat cube. It's such a meat cube. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Silvan (13:49) Now you talked about Scott's motivation about wanting to win the cup first and then he can go forward with the relationship or go public with the relationship. And we see this towards the end of the episode where he says to Kip, Declan (13:57) Mm-hmm. Silvan (14:04) you know, maybe in a couple of years and you see Kip physically retract. And so I want to get into the whole dynamic of their relationship because it very much, at least from a TV perspective, it very much is on Scott's terms. Declan (14:05) like. 100 % and it's like that in the book even more so to the point where the reader begins to quite dislike Scott because of the way that he's behaving and the way in which he is just Making all these assumptions about Kip and what Kip wants and how okay Kip is. I mean in the show whenever he Delivers those lines to Kip. It's ⁓ my god. It's so It's he crunch. He's sort of like ⁓ you almost flinch away by how bad it is when he says know, in a couple years whenever I retire along those lines it's like ⁓ no, no that's not that's not gonna work for us here. Especially after you know Kip's friend at the gala sort of pulls him aside and I love the girls in this show I think they're done so well. I think they're they're so much more likeable and engaging than they are in their respective books which they still are quite likeable in their respective book but yeah there's just something about the way in which their purpose is really strongly given in this they all play a role in these guys relationships and I really like that Kip's friend sort of stepped in and says like what is your intentions here you know like a protective parent but she's entirely correct and Silvan (15:38) Yeah. Declan (15:42) then Scott having to go home then to Kip and basically confess that his idea was always to have Kip wait and be hidden and not live this life or to live this life of secrecy. It's really heartbreaking. It's very sad. Silvan (16:01) It is, and I want to read out, I literally wrote this word for word from that scene. So I want to read out part of it. So it's Elena. And I know people say Elena, but look, I grew up in Spain, all right? So she says, what are your intentions with Mykip? that was just so great. Mykip. I'm serious, he's crazy about you. Scott says something about like, I'm crazy about him too. And then she says, he's also miserable. Declan (16:06) no, read it. Thank ⁓ Silvan (16:29) Are you miserable too? And he says no. And I'm like, wait a minute. Declan (16:29) ⁓ Yeah, because he's very content with the way things are because they suit him. Silvan (16:38) Exactly, everything's on his terms. And so he's like, no, wait, what do you mean? And so Elena says, nobody wants to be kept a secret. And I'm like, that's the point of this episode. It's the shame and the secrecy. That's what clouds everything for me here. And then he says he's not. And then Elena says he is. Eyes on me, handsome. I thought that was quite cute. And he says, Declan (16:46) Yeah. 100 % yeah Mm-hmm. Silvan (17:05) Scott says, I'm doing my best, I love him. And that's the first time you hear them say, I love them, but not to each other. So I thought that was an interesting choice. And he said, I just can't do better right now. I've been honest. So I'm like, okay. So throughout this whole episode, Scott is a very likable character. It's in this third act that he becomes really unlikable for me. And I feel like the writers are like, he's trying his best. I'm like, it's not damn good enough. Declan (17:09) Yeah, ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ the thing but that's what makes him like a three-dimensional character in the end. mean he in his head is trying hard enough but sometimes your best isn't good enough and that is sort of the message that Scott needs to drill into his head. It's that you know you can love someone to the ends of the earth but if it doesn't work and if they're becoming lesser as a result of being with you. It's that famous saying If you love them, you'll let them go. And that is very much what needs to sort of happen here because Scott is not in a position to commit to Kip at this moment in time. And I think Kip's aware of this. And I do think that it's something that he is thinking about, but it's also the correct decision for them then to separate. Silvan (18:19) Yeah, And then she says, he's so in love with you, he'll put up with it, but it's killing him. Declan (18:25) So. Silvan (18:26) And I'm not saying this to be mean. You seem great, but he's great too. And then she says, and this is my line of the episode, he deserves the best. He deserves sunshine. So do you. Declan (18:39) ⁓ But that's- Silvan (18:41) And I'm like... Declan (18:44) That's what makes her likeable, Because she's not just being a dick. She is, she knows his point of view. She understands what it is that he's dealing with. So much so that she doesn't want it for her friend. And she doesn't want it for him either, but you know, he's not her priority. Kippa's. So just that little bit at the end, like you deserve it too. Like. Silvan (18:44) This is where I think... Declan (19:11) It shows that she is genuinely coming from a good place and a place of understanding and that she knows what she's talking about. And I think it's that that has to prompt that conversation that follows them between Kip and Scott. I think that little bit of understanding of she's not just talking nonsense. She knows what this is about. And I think this needs to be sort of talked about. So yeah, such a great line, such a good character. Silvan (19:38) I was just going to say the same. It takes a really strong character to be able to deliver something like that without seeming brash or without seeming really unlikable. And as I was watching this episode with Elena specifically, I'm like, she's a Capricorn. She has to be a Capricorn because she's not taking any shit. She's calling things out even to Kip where it's necessary. And she's really been a catalyst for Declan (19:45) Mm-hmm. Hahaha Yeah, yeah. Internet. Silvan (20:05) whether, you know, ⁓ having this conversation between Scott and Kip, and I love that for Declan (20:10) That sort of scene then when Kip goes home and sees his father and he just sort of you just that was so emotional it was so well done you I really like the relationship that he has with his father it reminds me a lot of mine and it's that like no matter what age you get to it's that you're always able to like reduce yourself back down to that child and take comfort from your dad and they're there and they're there to accept that And it's just such a sad and lovely moment at the same time. I just thought it explains a lot of Kip, where he comes from and sort of his sort of emotional intelligence, I would say. If you come from a family like that, you know, you know what's up. So you do your you're emotionally aware, you're mature enough to realize, know, when something is and isn't working for you. And I think it's also a good way of characterizing him. and the difference that he has from Scott as well, he has no family like that. Silvan (21:13) her, And I think you're right. I think the relationship between Kip and his father is so sweet. And it's a relationship that we don't often get to see characterized on TV a lot. You don't see this very loving father in a relationship with a son who's gay. The gay part is irrelevant, but you don't see that really loving bonding sort of. Declan (21:37) Mm-hmm. Silvan (21:39) Joking, mean, I'm thinking back to like maybe Gilmore Girls and that's the closest thing I've seen from like a parent-child sort of relationship way way different I appreciate that but I'm thinking again because it's in my head and it's psychology of it all but you know the scene where He sort of where we meet his father. Yeah It's such a contrast how parents have already been depicted in the show Declan (21:59) Yeah. Silvan (22:07) So you've got Scott who obviously you've said already, you know, he says that both his parents are dead. We've got Elio who we don't know what happens to what's happening to mom, whether she sees her, she's not, we don't know yet, but we know dad has dementia. There's a strained relationship between him and the dad. And then we've got Shane who's got these, you know, very loving, both very loving parents, but very helicoptery type of parenting. And this is the first time I've seen Declan (22:22) Thank you. Yeah, 100%. Silvan (22:36) a really genuine parent-child relationship. They seem really in tune with each other. Declan (22:39) Yeah. Yeah, like one aspect of Scott's life that he is not lacking for is intimate and important and healthy relationships. He has it with his friends, he has it with his father. He's trying to develop it with Scott. And I think the relationship between him and his father, especially like I really enjoyed it because it felt very similar to the relationship I have with my father. He would have been very like that growing up. Even now, like It was never like an emotional distance there. So I related a lot to that sort of relationship and the, yeah, just the general vibe of it and the feeling behind it. And yeah, it just felt very lovely to see a relationship like that. Because like you said, you don't actually very commonly see it depicted in TV and shows, especially whenever you're dealing with the relationship between a sort of queer kid and their parents. there's always some sort of complication with it and Kip doesn't seem to have that. His father loves him enough to constantly tell him. He says it all the time. Love you, goodbye. it's the affection and the love is vocalized all the time. And so you can tell that whenever Kip goes home, like that's the safe space. And that's when he can finally like break down because he's with someone that cares and loves him so much. And yeah, it's just such a lovely depiction of a relationship between a father and a son and something definitely to be emulated anyway. Yeah, really, really cool. Silvan (24:12) Yeah, and it's I'm going to be a little bit unpopular here and say that I did not like Kip's father on my first viewing of this episode. I thought it was like, is this realistic? It's too saccharine. It's too comforting. And then I sat with my own issues because there's plenty of them. And I thought, no, but this is this is what I would be expecting from a character. This is what I would want for a character. Declan (24:19) Really? Yeah. Silvan (24:40) And so it was like my second or my third watching that I fell in love with their relationship. And I'm like, this is the supporting, let's legitimize a supporting loving relationship for a queer kid. Because like you said, you don't always see that depicted on TV shows or in movies. Like you said, the, you know. Declan (24:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Silvan (25:00) Coming out to a parent serves a purpose of conflict in a storyline, which is where it's used most. So where it's not used here, it's sort of normalized. And I love that. Declan (25:04) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think there is enough conflict in the story to not need to add that on. Obviously, these guys are going through a lot. They're dealing with a lot. You don't need to add daddy issues on top of it. There's definitely enough dodgy parental figures going on in the show to not need to add another one on. And I don't recall so much of that book, but I don't think I think Kip does have a positive relationship with Svoboda but I don't think it's depicted as explicitly as it is in the show. I think it's an important element. Like Jacob Coterny puts quite a bit of focus on it considering he's adapting a full book. He does take the time to look at this particular aspect of things. So I do think it's very deliberate. And I do think it does show the contrast between what Scott has and what Kip has. Kip has friends who are there to back him up who are out there looking for his best interests and a loving father who cares about him and is there to emotionally support him when he's down. It's perfectly encapsulated in that last sort of scene where Scott is looking in on Kip's party, where Kip is surrounded by his family and his friends and his loved ones and He's just had like the worst, probably one of the worst days of his life. After just breaking up with his boyfriend and then going and having a party for his birthday. And he's surrounded by that support system. The same thing has just happened to Scott, but who's he surrounded by? Nobody. There's no one there. He stood out there in the cold alone. And that perfectly represents everything that's different between the two of them and everything that Scott wants and just craves after. And it's just, it was such a beautiful image and a beautiful scene to show the differences in their family dynamics and their support systems. To have no one stand beside Scott, but kept surrounded by friends and family. was just very, very poignant moment. Silvan (27:07) And it's beautifully shot because you get the image of Kit being surrounded first and then it pans out and you're like, they're in a bar. And then it pans out even more and you're like, Scott's there. And you think maybe he's going to go in, he's going to go in, surely he's going to go in. And then it just shows him walking away. And I'm like, no, go into the bar, Scott. my God, I need my happy ever after ending. But I think you're right. think, you know, the show does a really good job at depicting the support systems, but not just even parental support systems, but even Declan (27:23) You'll be happy ever after. Silvan (27:36) you know, the friends around Kip. So there's that scene where, you know, he's catering and he messes up, he throws the whatever it is on Scott. And he's like to his friend who's hired him supposedly, like, please don't fire me, I need this job. And he's like, honey, I'm not going to fire you. Take a breath. And I thought, my God, what a supportive friend. like, imagine being in a workplace where you're already stressed out and you've just messed up. Declan (27:37) Yeah. Yeah. actually having a bad day, can't do it. Thank you. Yeah. Silvan (28:05) you know, you just messed up. And having someone like that reminded me of my own queer friends that I have at the moment and I've had for a long time and how supportive we are of one another and how we celebrate each other's victories and pick each other up when we're not having great days. Declan (28:13) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. creates that sort of contrast between Kip and Scott, what they have, and because Kip is openly queer, he is allowed to invite people into his life in a way that Scott isn't. Kip can confide in any of his friends because they all know who he is. He doesn't hide any aspect of himself. He is fully and 100 % congruent with himself, which is a fancy counseling term for just being the true version of yourself. Scott is not and so he cannot open up to people because he has to keep this secret. If anyone finds out about this, he loses his career and he literally has nothing else. Absolutely nothing else. His career is everything to him. It gave him the life that he has now. It made him rich. It took him out of the foster care system. It's done so much and it is his family. It's his support system and yet can never be truly himself while he's within it because it wouldn't accept him or he thinks it wouldn't accept him anyway. And so yeah the contrast between the two characters in that sense you know one is able to be openly queer themselves and the other isn't. One of them hides and the other doesn't. One of them has friends and the other doesn't. So yeah so much of what Scott is missing out on is tied up in his queerness. and it's just really hammered home in this episode, really hammered home. Silvan (29:53) Yeah, and in a way a lot of what Scott is having to deal with is what Shane and Ilya have to deal with in the previous two episodes that we've seen, know, this shame, this hiding, this, you know, we can't tell people, we can't do what we want, we can't say what we want. And so there's this overshadowing of this very elite sport Declan (29:59) No Silvan (30:13) And so rather than sort of, you know, cocoon them, it's restricting them. You're right. Absolutely. Now, I want to talk to you about Declan (30:17) Mm-hmm. Silvan (30:22) and this is something that I have pages of notes on, is the whole dating someone who is in the closet and the implications that has for you as someone who is open or not as closeted, for example. Declan (30:38) Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a very, very difficult relationship to be in. I avoided it like the plague. As soon as I was out, I was sort of out and I had no real intentions of sort of going back in anyway. But I can imagine if you are so in love with somebody that The idea of not being with them is enough to want to hide yourself again. Yeah, a very, very intense feeling and something very difficult to overcome. And I think for Scott and Kip in this episode in particular, it's just, I think the fact that he's famous as well makes it so much more complicated because he can't just. to a different city where none of his family or friends live and sort of have a romantic relationship with somebody. You can go to public and go in restaurants, you can go to shows or whatever and you don't need to worry about anyone thinking that you're in a relationship. Whereas with Kip and Scott, Scott is like nationally known. He is a very, very famous and well-respected hockey player and he is spotable in the street by people who know to look for him. And so Yeah, it further complicates their dynamic because they can't even do those things. They can't do couples things outside of the home. And you need that for any relationship to be able to have those moments, those date times and to be able to freely express your love and affection for somebody in those really important sort of couple ways. And they can't do any of that. And it just further complicates this dynamic, which already started off on really bad foot because One of them is hiding who they are in the world and the other is sort of being forced to do the same after finding the courage to come out and be their authentic selves, which is not easy. It's very, very scary. And it's a big accomplishment for whenever you do have that happen to then go and have to undo that accomplishment. It has to be really, really hard. Silvan (32:38) Yeah. And I don't know whether this is a queer sort of fantasy, and I say fantasy with a P-H and over the F, whereby, you you have these sort of ideas that you're going to come out when you have like a boyfriend or a girlfriend or whoever. And that's your sort of like that's where you're going to come out. That's where you're going to declare your love and show off your love to the world, for example. And to me, growing up, there was a very stark realization is that you don't come out for someone else. You come out for yourself first. Declan (32:41) Okay. Okay. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, it has to be. You have to want it more than you fear the consequences of what might happen. And I think whenever people realize that you're never truly going to be really happy in your life unless you take that step, and that's a very, very hard conclusion to come to, you're never really gonna truly achieve that. feeling of serenity, of being at peace with yourself, with your life, of sort of understanding yourself in a deeper level and being able to admit it to yourself and not having to fear constantly being caught. Like you're constantly in a lie and you're constantly worried about how someone will react to you or if you'll be perceived in a certain way. And it consumes so much of your thoughts and so much of that space inside your head that you don't have room for other things. And you're just, you're totally missing out on your potential, even outside of like a romantic aspect, carrying the weight of that around and those thoughts around with you all the time. It's all consuming and it just leaves you completely full and unable to process anything else that could possibly make you happy. Silvan (34:23) I agree and as you were saying that, I was just thinking about to my experiences and how even when you just do it for yourself, yes, there's the fear of being caught, but also like you said, that emotional weight that just sort of hangs over you every single, it's not even on a daily basis, on literally, it's in every single sort of moment, yeah. Declan (34:43) second by second, yeah. Silvan (34:46) I think for me, having been on both sides of this as the person who was on the down low, didn't want to be out but trying to date, but then also Declan (34:51) Mm-hmm. Silvan (34:55) you know, not sort of being in the closet as it were. And then having to date someone who was, was really tricky and really interesting to the point where it didn't work. Declan (34:57) Yeah. Good. Silvan (35:08) And so I can almost identify with both these characters because I've been both these characters at different times of Declan (35:13) Yeah, I had the experience of not dating anyone. I didn't even kiss a guy before I came out, but I came out when I was 22 as well. I just, for me, it was such a thing that I was like repressing so strongly where it was like, I'm not doing this at all to the point where I was just forced by my brain to do it because I was being so incongruent with myself and I was just so not who I am that my brain just went, no, you're doing it. Like this is happening and you're telling everyone. And that's exactly what I did. I went home and I rang everyone that I actually cared about. He was a part of my life who were important to me. And I just came out to them and Then it was just this feeling of absolute relief. It's like, my God. right. It's done. It's finally done. Funny story. I rang my dad. I said to him and it like, so that's, that's fine. As long as you're happy. That's all that matters to me. I actually thought you rang me asking me for money. If you know him, you'll just think that's absolutely typical of him. So yeah, that was, that was my experience. Silvan (36:28) Ha ha! Declan (36:36) But the relief of doing that, I mean, the idea of going in and loving that, that sort of light again, in the way that Kip is in the story, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't bring myself to do it because I could never do it when it was just me involved. So what, am I doing it with another person as well and keeping their secret on top of recreating my own? No, I couldn't do it and... It goes to show to me the level of sort of love and attraction that Kip has towards Scott that he would even consider it, even though in the end he chooses not to. And yeah, it's very, very far provoking. Silvan (37:19) Yeah, and the symbolism of the tuxedo being in the closet, thought, ⁓ that's very poignant. Like he opens the closet doors and there's the tuxedo and he's like, for my man S, he doesn't even write his freaking name on it. It's like S and I'm like, wow, you are literally pushing him back in the closet. And I Declan (37:27) buried. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the fact that he wears it to the gala where he cannot even pretend to know him, the suit that he was bought by his boyfriend, and he can't even speak to his boyfriend. It's, it's layers upon layers of just really good, just cinematic story writing. And it's just so clever. Jacob Tierney is just so smart about it. Silvan (37:50) Right? Yeah, and the clothes have a lot of symbolism in this episode. So we talked about the tux, but the socks. Can we talk about the socks? Declan (38:10) Yes, 100%. Silvan (38:13) The way the socks were given, I thought was so cute. I thought he was giving him an engagement ring by the gesture he was making, Kip was making. was like, they are seriously not gonna get engaged Like this isn't happening. But with the socks and the purple with the bananas and all that, I thought that was such a sweet gift to give. Declan (38:23) that's not... yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because it's so representative of their relationship. It's the banana that started the conversation between them. Obviously, banana is phallic. They're colourful. You have their purple and you have the yellow and they're just so out there and they just look ridiculous. But they're given as a thoughtful gift from Kip and they're really well received by Scott. he he always feels like Kip's with him when he's wearing them. And he always, it's almost like he's carrying a bit of kip in him in that way. And that's what makes it so tragic that he still wears them. Even though after they're gone, he's still wearing them because he's never, can't let go of that part of kip and that part of himself as well. And pulling the hockey sock over them. Then they hide them. Hockey having to hide the representation of his queerness, of his relationship, of is love and affection for Scott or for Kip. Like that's just really clever and there's a pair of banana socks. Silvan (39:35) And, it says so much. when he covered, he wears the second pair of socks at the end and the end shot, I was like, he's covering Kip up. And then I thought he's protecting himself because socks, know, warmth and protection, he's on the ice, whatever. And then the last thought I had was he's covering his heart. He's protecting his heart. Declan (39:46) Yeah Yeah, and it's Hockey covering it up. So it is covering up the love and the affection. It's... Yeah, very deep pair of socks. Silvan (39:56) Yeah. Who knew a of socks would provoke this much conversation? We sort of talked about how is this really likable character and then does some questionable things as the episode goes on. But to me, know, the socks represent like this good luck charm in a way, keeping a piece of Kip with him when he's away. And we see earlier on in the episode, Declan (40:06) Yeah, huh. Silvan (40:22) when Scott's playing away and playing against Rosanoff and playing against Shane, how he loses those games. And to me, it feels like one, this relationship is on Scott's terms, sorry, but it also serves Scott to be in this relationship because almost like being with Kip is like a good luck charm. It's leading him to win, whether he's happy, whether he's superstitious, regardless, but it's a very self-serving relationship. Declan (40:32) Yeah, 100%. Yeah. and that's what makes him so unlikable in the book is that he is quite self-serving and he's such a nice guy. He's such a good guy but what he's doing is not good. It's not nice and as many excuses as he likes to try to make for it it's not acceptable either to ask someone to do that and to be like that and I can understand Scott not wanting to let Kip go because he's so in love with him and that love is real. It's not just ⁓ you know it's not just I'm getting a need met it's so much more than that but you can be in a relationship with someone and love the absolute socks off them but if it's not right for them and it's hurting them ultimately what you're doing is being really selfish because you cannot let go of that thing because it would hurt you even though keeping them and it is hurting them And I think that the way in which it's depicted through Scott and through Kip, it's just very affecting and it's very, very moving in the way in which Scott can be so blinded by everything that he has in front of him that he cannot see how his partner is losing it. So very, very powerful way of sort of depicting that dynamic. And yeah, I always liked that element of the book. In fact, in the book, I actually really like whenever Kip sort of just stands his ground and goes, this is not, I can't do this. This is too much. It's not right. And yeah, then Scott has to go and he has to reflect and think about what it is that he wants. And it's hockey or Kip, supposedly. And he lets Kip go. Silvan (42:43) Interesting. mean, the thought that was running through my mind as you were saying, I'm like, Scott is such a typical guy. Like such a typical guy. Like I'm not defending him or I'm not like categorizing all men in one, but like in a movie, TV show perspective, he's clueless. He's a little bit clueless, a little bit dense and you want to smack him over the head, which is what Elena does. Declan (42:52) That's it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because Kip surrounds himself by people who are emotionally intelligent and who share and care and love him and will tell him when he's wrong. Elena has absolutely zero issue confronting Kip and telling Kip what she thinks. She is that typical friend which will give it to you hard, but you can always rely on to be honest with you. And it's very important that Kip hears it because Keep in mind, it's Kip that ends the relationship. So it is, he is the one that has the support system and the emotional intelligence to understand whenever something is damaging. And while the love is amazing and it's good, the relationship dynamic is not, it's not a place where it can grow and it can turn into something lasting. And Kip understands that, whereas Scott is still quite. he doesn't believe that it's no no let me work you only need to wait a year or two and to kip that's like what do you mean a year or two like i have a life to live i can't live like this like are you stupid it was like but Silvan (44:10) right? mean Scott's already old, Kip has youth on his side, he still has abs. Declan (44:14) Exactly. Well, they both do and they probably will in well in their fifties when we don't. But yeah, it is like, completely shows the lack of relationship experience that Scott has. By the way, Scott, I don't think has ever had a relationship before. Ever. So it's funny, I think Kip has in the book. I can't fully remember. Silvan (44:18) ⁓ that's. interesting. Declan (44:44) But Kip has other relationships anyway, where he has the experience of knowing someone, understanding someone, of knowing their emotional needs. Scott has none of that experience outside of the team that he plays with, which is a very insular and very particular sort of dynamic. know, he talks about hockey being his family. know, yes, you can find... people in your sports and your teams and things like that there that you can have close relationships with and form strong bonds. But it's a very particular environment and it's a very specific environment that isn't necessarily very conductive for healthy emotional responses and healthy emotional ways of being. It's high stakes, it's competitive, it's uncaring of feeling. It's lacking in empathy in a lot of ways. And so Scott is not exposing himself to relationships that will help him further understand someone if he gets into a romantic relationship, which is exactly what happens. This is why Kip comes to the understanding and Kip's friends come to the understanding way faster than Scott ever does because Scott has absolutely no experience with this despite his age. He has no family to fall back on. He has very few friends and doing friends that he has are his hockey friends and hockey is not sport that's conducted to sort of building emotionally intelligent relationships. Well, every situation is different. I won't say it completely, but it's not the best environment to sort of foster it, if that makes sense. Silvan (46:19) Yeah, but this explains Scott's, know, naivete about how well things are going and not understanding Kip's point of view. Declan (46:24) Mm-hmm. Silvan (46:28) But I really love the way that these women are non-white, they're people of colour, and they're being depicted in such a really positive and sort of rich way in the show. Declan (46:42) Yeah, yeah, the show is quite diverse cast, which I think is really, important. The girls especially are just, such great characters. There are so many of the best lines in this show are coming from the Gerds. ⁓ Like that first meeting they have and he turns to her and she's like, girl, it just like knocked me down like straight away. I was just in absolute stitches. was. Silvan (46:52) We're going to have to do another episode. Right. That was. Declan (47:09) And then it happens again and it's just perfect with it. But they're still likeable. I think this is really important because in a lot of MN romance books, because the romantic connection is not between, you know, a man and a woman. And because queerness and, you know, coming out in secrecy, they're usually big plot points. There is usually a depiction of a woman standing in the way. She's the obstacle. She's not there to help. She's there to mess things up and complicate the situation. And as a result of that, they can be quite disliked. So they can and they can be quite one dimensional. They're only really used as like plot points. I like that in this show they're taking the time to flesh them out. They are likeable characters. They're important to the story. They're important to our main guys. And they serve a really important role in developing them and giving them proper character backstory and just making them not just one dimensional obstacles to get in the way, tokenistic exactly. So yeah, I do like that they've been fleshed out a little more and that they are just so likeable. Silvan (48:06) tokenistic. think we're gonna have to do a whole episode just on the women. I mean, they deserve the time. Declan (48:18) ⁓ 100%. Yeah. Because they all serve different purposes within each story. And the way in which they're different from their book counterparts, a bit more fleshed out, a bit more realized. Yeah, there's definitely something there to talk about. Silvan (48:34) Yeah, I think Maria's character with the girl sort of quote just takes it from me. I think for a whole straight week, me and my friends are just saying girl to each other. Like, I loved it, I loved it. And this is part of where the humor comes from as well. It's not just so deep and so analytical. It's a funny show. Declan (48:41) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's still light-hearted. Silvan (48:53) So thinking about this whole episode then and seeing how Scott and Kip don't end up together, I'm wondering what the impact will be and how this ties into Shane and Ilya's storyline. Declan (49:03) Yeah, it's a good question because are we now going to get like a dual POV? Like, are we going to be seeing both of them back and forth or are they just going to be set to the side as like something going on in the background? Obviously, we know now that we return to Shane and Ilya, but watching how their story and this idea of, you know, Scott sitting on this huge secret that now is also happening in the story and it's now a new element that's been introduced to the overall world. It's like, oh my God, what's going to happen here? And how is that going to influence the other ones when it does happen, you know, if it does happen? And yeah, it just, it sets up so many possibilities for how the story could go. Obviously I've read the book so I know exactly what happens and all I can say is that it's masterfully paced. It's very well, I'm very glad he put it right where it is because it just really works in terms of where Shane and Ilya are in their book and yeah, it's, trust me, it's well paced. This is a good thing that he's done. ⁓ It's really clever and I'm glad that he put it in episode 3. Give us enough time to get to know Shane and Ilya and expand their story a bit and then place it perfectly then. Silvan (50:26) And also in a way, this feels like a side quest, but a really good side quest in that it makes me want to know like, okay, what's going on with Shen and Li? It makes me miss their story in a way, rather than just giving everything to us. And we're getting these weekly, which is a whole different conversation, which I love actually. But yeah, I'm interested to see how this sort of plays out. Do you get like this parallel storyline? How does this differ? Because you can't have two stories that are Declan (50:29) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Silvan (50:51) unfolding in the same way. So how are they going to unfold differently? What implications is this going to have? Declan (50:54) Thank yeah, thanks for watching. If you enjoyed this, follow, download, like it, leave a comment what you think of the episode, what was your thoughts on the relationship between characters and where do you think this is all gonna unfold to if you've not watched ahead. If you enjoyed this check in for episode 4 that won't be too long and yeah thanks so much for listening and watching.