We don't only need Bitcoin because Fiat is failing, we need Bitcoin because our digital rights are under a constant and accelerating attack.

I'm joined by crypto anarchist and cypherpunk Eric Cason to recenter our focus on the original thesis.

Why is Bitcoin necessary?

This conversation is a foundational reminder that the original thesis has only accelerated and we define the fundamental non negotiable battle against centralized control that makes Bitcoin the ultimate tool for self sovereignty.

All right, let's dive in Eric Case and welcome back to Bitcoin for Millennials.

Next.

Good to be here, yeah?

Good to see you.

You were one of the first guests, I don't know, somewhere in the 1st 20 episodes.

So this was a while ago since since we spoke, your thesis is really rooted in like long term non negotiable battle for for sovereignty.

So I just wanted to start with, what is your take on the current impatience?

And why does the battle need to be slow?

Actually, so we can get to, you know, our goal of irreversible sovereignty.

Yeah.

I think first and foremost, like, you know, the, the, the price is much higher than it was two or three years ago.

Like I expect two or three years from now it'll be much higher than it is today.

And like this is sort of the long and slow and steady progress that's made, you know, like also like it's not what a lot of people think it is like it, it doesn't number go up automatically.

Like it, it's people need to educate themselves about why and how it's valuable, why it doesn't part a new kind of sovereignty.

And like it's it's really important to understand that like bitcoins a a safety vehicle, like it's not that like you need it all day, every day, all the time.

It's that like there's some point in time where like you say a naughty thing on the Internet and like your bank account gets shut down and like not now you actually need to have sovereign money or that like you do.

I don't think people understand how fragile these monetary systems that we've that we're participating in are and how easily you can get cut off from it.

Like particularly speaking as an American, where I feel like we, we have greater rights, like in Europe, there's, it's becoming pretty alarming at seeing a number of things that are coming down the line, particularly in places like the UK where like if you post a picture that like the government doesn't like, like it's pretty clear that they're going to come after you.

And at some point in time, the economic prerogative is part of what happens.

And so like sovereignty around money and the ability and capacity to make sure that we can transact freely is like the main purpose of Bitcoin.

It's not just that like it continues to accrue value over time forever, like it happens to do that as a feature of, of how and why it imparts sovereignty.

But like the, the sovereignty is sort of the, the main aspect that it presents and pushes forward, you know, And also like lots of interesting products are being built, particularly at the intersection of AI.

Like, in my opinion, Bitcoins, the only thing that can actually like allow for AI to like monetize AI to AI usage in like a meaningful way.

So, yeah, like a lot of it is, is just like, you know, be be patient, kids, like things that are already moving at breakneck speed.

And yeah, there's a lull in the dialogue.

And I think it's because nobody's saying anything that's actually new or interesting or important or innovative.

And that's kind of the big problem that Bitcoin treasury companies came up with is like, they don't, they don't realize that like you need to actually have a good business model first.

And then like adding a Bitcoin treasury to that makes it it like supercharges the business.

But as we received with, you know, a company like Knockout, like having a bunch of Bitcoin on the book and sort of waiting for the Messiah to come and number go up like that, that's not a terribly viable strategy.

So.

One of the biggest realizations I've had recently is like, we need to talk about the problem more, right?

Like, because if people don't understand the problem they have, they just see Bitcoin as this thing that is part of all these other options that they could invest in or trade in or leverage in or whatnot, right?

But eventually, like you're like you're saying there's this certain roads to even more forced centralization in all the different aspects of especially Western society.

I think that is taking away slowly but surely the sovereignty we still have our our kind of like aware of.

And I think that's probably very under discussed, I think, right?

Like it, it is, this is what you should understand in order for Bitcoin to be this tool, the safety vessel, like like you said, right?

Because if not Bitcoin, what else is is, is kind of my conclusion is like if, if, if it's not Bitcoin, then then what else?

So is this the big idea that people kind of forgot?

Maybe.

I think so, you know, I'm like, it's, I think if you go back a few years ago, you know, maybe 3 or 4 years ago, the dialogue then was much more featured on this.

And it's because like the, what makes Bitcoin such a powerful tool is this, some people have have mistakenly calling it apolitical, but like this quote, apolitical nature.

It has, it's actually the most political thing that could ever exist.

Like all other monies on the planet are inherently biased towards their political nature, whether it be the American dollar, the euro, the yen, like whatever.

Like that, that is inherently a tool of a nation state that they use as a form of power and control against their population.

And like you can be cut off from that system and particularly the world that we're going into that wants to have these digital ID systems, like pairing that to your bank account, it's going to be all the easier to cut you off.

And like Bitcoin doesn't exist for like everyday being able to, you know, transact or buy your coffee with it.

In my opinion.

It's for when you do get cut off from that system and it's like, hey, you don't get to bank anymore because you said naughty things on the Internet.

That's where it really presents its power in addition to like, you know, like in Europe, like you guys get taxed at the absolute ass repeatedly.

Like a like a lot of you guys pay more than 50% taxes, you know, and I'm in California.

It's not too different for us here.

Like there's a real possibility to build circular economies where like you can actually have peer-to-peer exchanges, like a cash exchange system and like that allows for you to get around these really onerous regulations and very thoughtful ways.

And like people who need to ultimately understand that, like, what's happening here is part of a greater political praxis.

But like that dies if we don't actually have a pedagogical approach that explains to people why this is such a powerful thing.

And like, number go up is a nice thing.

But like, that's a feature of more people understanding why it should be their savings vehicle.

And it's not just because it's the best of all stocks, it's that it's something inherently and fundamentally different from stocks.

And it's also something that's inherently and fundamentally different from all crypto.

I mean, the second chapter in my book is called the encrypted meaning of crypto.

And it's that like this word crypto in itself has become a, a neologism that that's absolutely idiotic.

Like most people couldn't tell you that crypto is relational to the word like cryptography.

And that like cryptography is like baked into the substrate of Bitcoin itself.

And it needs cryptography to function because of like we could identify who Satoshi Nakamoto was today.

Like he would probably be the most wanted man on the planet because he was the one that pioneered and created a system that cannot actually be stomped out or controlled directly.

And like, these are all very important things that require deep thought and understanding to get that.

Like Bitcoin is actually a political tool for the cypherpunk and digital class of people, which really is millennials on a whole.

Like the the Internet is this radically powerful tool that allows for you and me being a world apart right now to be able to connect and have this conversation like that.

That's something that was never expected sort of in the human condition.

And so like it's really important that people get that.

Like, there's a way that we actually make the Internet into a tool for political freedom for the future, but that's only if we understand it in that way.

Like, it can absolutely also be something that is used to capture us in a totalitarian panoptic system for all of our control.

And if we're thoughtless about how we approach it, that's exactly what we're going to get.

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I'm thinking about this.

I think the documentary is called I think that is Cyberpunk's right code.

Is that the name of the document ready to go really deep in where this is series where to go really deep in this whole?

I think that's at the beginning of PGP where they make like the T-shirts with the code, right?

And they go that they go over the over the border.

I actually heard that Hal Finney was part of that, right?

Like he was part of that, that, that that group did it.

But that that whole idea of cryptography is actually, you know, using computers to secure your privacy, which is, or well, should be, you know, one of the top human human rights, you know, So the, the whole idea of using computers and a decentralized network to be able to not only communicate in a private way, which, you know, was what PGP was about, but Bitcoin is that with money, it's like a, it's like even a level higher in my opinion, right?

Like just the exchange of value in a decentralized, global pseudonymous way, right, using using this encryption so no one can actually fuck with it.

Like that idea, I think is what a lot of people that maybe are now into Bitcoin don't really see like the profoundness of that, the fact that we could actually do that.

And how big of a contrast that is to, you know, the money that you're being forced to use or the, or the financial system that you're being forced to use in the, in the, in the country that you, that you live in.

Like just, and This is why I wanted to talk to you like just being reminded of that.

I think that is such, that is such a huge thing.

And I wanted to ask you like, why do you if, if you agree, but also like how, how is that the most effective weapon encryption and cryptography against, you know, this like slow erosion of of these rights that we fought, we had like how can something like cryptography and also Bitcoin like how does that how, how is that an effective weapon?

How do you think through that?

Well, so getting back to to your first point that you know, this was called the first Crypto Wars and before this cryptography was classified as a munition.

So it was like in the same class as like grenades or other explosives.

And that's really important to understand because like, cryptography itself is an actual tool of war.

In fact, it's always been kind of at the cutting edge of war itself.

I mean, like the, the very reason that we even developed computers in the 1st place was to do cryptic analysis to be able to break the Enigma machine that the Nazis were using to encode all of their communications.

It was only once we had computers and we could break the Enigma code that really the Allies won World War 2 at that point in time because of the ability and capacity that they had to be able to do analysis on German communications and make sure that like we could kind of take out the right shipments and other things to make sure that we could win the war.

So it's like really important to get that like cryptography has been and and always will be fundamentally a tool of war.

Now, why is this important that we have magic Internet money that has that baked in?

Well, because your political rights are something that like your ancestors actively fought wars in order to be able to secure for themselves like that.

It wasn't like the Dutch king one day was like, hey, we like love you guys.

Like here are these great political rights.

No, you had this whole fucking Orange Revolution.

That was like a really important thing that established and helped secure those rights.

And like that, that's something that a lot of people aren't aware of and have forgotten about.

And it's that like the political rights that we've been given weren't something that were naturally endowed to us.

Like there were things that that we fought active wars against.

And like, the the United States Constitution isn't a document that is about how the government runs.

It's a document that's explicitly about making sure that government does not have particular powers and restrains them from being able to do things.

And that explicitly came from the way that the British Crown was violating, you know, British subjects at that point in time.

You know, and it's important to understand that one of the main reasons this came about was the idea of taxation without representation.

Well, like, that this is something that we're all subject to all the time, repeatedly and consistently by these opaque powers that frankly don't care much about us.

And like that, the idea that today, like in the UK, like they're supposed to have some idea of freedom of speech, like things over there are, are really wild and scary.

And people need to understand like, no one is coming to save you.

There isn't going to be some great political hero that rises up and goes, no, we can't violate people's rights anymore.

They're like, game over.

They've already established that you just make this about quote safety and security and they can steal whatever rights they want from you.

So vis A vis cryptography, this technique of war, you can actually secure not only your data, but like your, your actual economic security.

And that's something nobody can take away.

There's no government that can override the, the parameters of how cryptography work.

There's no institution, there's no back doors.

And like, that's why it's such an important thing to understand because if you actually encrypt your information or your private keys securely, that means that you can recover them anywhere in any way that you want to.

And nobody else can do that.

It's something that has true sovereignty baked into it.

And sadly, the world we're going into, we need that and we need more people who understand that it's only through the achievement that is Bitcoin and this ability to have a decentralized global monetary Ledger that people can, that all people everywhere can use.

It's an astounding thing because again, in the West we have a, a particular form of privilege where the idea of access to banking systems is easy.

If you go to somewhere in, in sub-Saharan Africa or other places, like it's much more difficult to secure the ability to get any banking services at all.

And so like people really need to be a lot more thoughtful about like Bitcoin isn't just another stock or number go up.

It's a step function change in how we understand the economic system as something that is a free and open and a borderless and global system that's available to all people everywhere.

And to me, like, that's one of the most powerful things is that, like, no longer are we forced into this game of having solidarity with our nation state that we might not agree with or might even be actively oppressing us, but we can actually have economic solidarity with, you know, all other peoples in the world who see the world in the same way that we do and want to establish greater economic freedom for all peoples everywhere.

I'm thinking about like a dollar that that you hold where you are at now has more value than if I would hold a dollar where I am right now.

I think just that idea with Bitcoin that is gone basically like the Bitcoin where you are at has the same value as where I'm at.

And we can transact that in a global way with instant final settlement without anyone having any control over the fact that we can do that or not.

And it's funny because while you were talking, I had to think about this.

Like, this is also something that doesn't really exist.

It doesn't, it didn't exist before Bitcoin.

But I mean, more like people don't understand why that is important.

Like you, you, you can choose this money and the money that you're using in the country that you were born and you were forced to use that money.

So that's already something that shows you that it might not be the best solution for money in the place where where you were at, sorry.

Yeah.

And, and I was just going to add like, and if you think the current system that you're in, you're like, well, I can pay anybody I want or buy whatever I want.

It's like, OK, well why don't you use your money to like go buy like heart medication that you use?

Like, can you do that openly?

Oh, no, you can't.

How about like if you want to send money to humanitarian refugees in at, you know, Palestinian displacement camps?

Oh, you can't do that.

Like, it's there are these very clear guardrails that like, once you run up to them, you realize that like, this isn't a free system.

But the problem is, is a lot of times, like we're we're like fish and water.

A lot of people think that we have freedom because we're swimming around in this area where we don't run up against the walls.

But the moment that you actually run up against the the tank glass, you go, oh shit, there actually is this giant wall here that I can't swim through.

And that's by the construct of like how this system operates because like you're not actually free.

You're a fish inside of a tank and that you believe that you're in the open ocean just because you haven't actually run up against the aquarium wall yet.

And like, and at some point in time that's going to happen.

And it's really important that people get this now rather than later.

You know, it's like if you really think that because like I like to think a lot about another thing that people don't understand is that the nature of political systems and the way that they clamp down on people's freedom and sovereignty, a lot of times that actually becomes an economic.

Predicament in itself, it's that like a socialist class wants to exploit a wealth class because they have money itself and so they will literally go after them and steal all of their shit and usually kill them.

But sometimes people can flee the country and like that's a lot of what socialist regimes were in the 20th century.

Like read up about it.

It's really important that people understand that like this has happened repeatedly and constantly throughout the last 100 years of human history is that a political class rises up, it accuses the other class of being oppressive or stealing from other people.

They choose that they're going to expropriate their wealth from them.

And then people have to end up fleeing from their country with absolutely nothing because property has historically always been something physical, even something like gold.

If you're trying to smuggle one Bitcoin worth of gold, well, that's nearly 10 oz.

Well, I guess 5 ounces of gold now, like that's, that's like a lot like that's a heavy amount of stuff.

And trying to actually physically hide that is difficult.

Whereas with Bitcoin, you can actually cross borders with literally nothing on you.

And there's no way for people to tell how much money you have or if you even have any Bitcoin.

And that's a very, very important safety feature, particularly if like you could find yourself becoming a dissident at some point in time.

And so for me, like the, the most important thing to understand is it's like this function that it has for all people everywhere to be able to use.

It is really important because at some point in time, you could find yourself in a position, I mean, hell, even if you're accused of crimes and thrown in jail, like this can make it so you don't have access to your own bank accounts or the ability to even hire a defense lawyer.

So like, these things are all very important for people to understand.

And I fear a lot of people don't aren't well informed enough, but either about history or about how how these systems work to really understand that.

Again, Bitcoin isn't just some new stock offering.

Like it is actually a monumental technological achievement that allows for people to achieve, frankly, a new form of political freedom that's never existed before.

Yeah, that's where the F you money memes meme comes from, right?

It's not about how much you have.

It's about the fact that you you have it and you cannot tell where mine is or how much how much it is, right?

That's the that's the whole point.

I am I I fully agree with you.

I was thinking like the water is also really nice and warm, right?

It's really nice and warm and chill and like the outer edges, at least in the Western world, are pretty far away.

And I, I think This is why people this also kind of my conclusion from doing the podcast is like a lot of people cannot really visualize or conceptualize what you just said.

The, the fact that it exists is already the thing that you should be worried about because who created this frame or this paradigm or this matrix or this aquarium that you're basically like, who, who did that?

Like who are these people?

What gives them the right over you to actually be able to create that to what benefit to, to your benefit or their benefit, right?

Like what's, what do you actually think of that once you, you see that, right?

And I think that is a very critical thing to have important opinion about.

It's important to clarify too that like a lot of people are like, Oh well, like the they're like these people that we democratically elected and that they're they're given legislative but bullshit like that's part of the indoctrinated brainwashing that most people have been given.

Most of this is done by bureaucrats that are not elected, are not accountable in any way and are usually well, and usually they have some corrupt relationship that actually is the the reason that they're doing things is because they benefit in some way from these restrictions.

Like it's truly terrifying to see how frequent legislation and regulation is put in of like, oh, we need to monitor this thing and hey, here's this great company that will do that monitoring.

And it turns out that the legislator that suggests that owns part of that company on the back end, like most of these people are horrifically corrupt and they play it's such a good game up front of talking about, no, this is for the safety and security of the children.

When really it's that I can make some money off of this.

And I'm going to do it because frankly, I'm a political parasite.

I, I don't understand how to create true economic value in the world.

So I'm going to parasitically suck off of the backs of everybody else to enrich myself.

Yes.

And I, I think this is a very, very good point is this is just incentives, right?

It's logical.

It is really like, don't hate to play hate the game.

Like if that is the game and people by some way, shape or form get to a position where they are like, hey, I can use the game to my benefit, then they will absolutely do that, right?

Like that is just normal biological self-interest I would say, right?

Like they did you do that.

And if you don't understand or want to understand the bigger construct in which you're operating, then maybe at some point you're also thinking like, Hey, I'm, I'm doing the right thing.

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm contributing to, you know, whatever my country is.

And that I think again, to just tie it back to the individuals.

Like you just have to realize that this exists and you have to form thoughts and a certain opinion around it that then eventually inform your actions, right?

Like doing nothing and just ignoring it, I think is also an action, right?

So that could be part of, you know, whatever the conclusion of someone is.

And I had to think I saw a tweet today in a in a big newspaper here in the country.

It said the government, the popularity of the government as employer increases, people are looking for safety.

And how do you say that, like safety and think things being predictable.

Yeah.

And security and people are tweeting about this like, oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah, it's really nice.

I work at the government and other people are like, yeah, but the government doesn't produce anything.

Guys like, what are you kidding me?

You know, and and this is slowly where we're going, right?

Like there are more and more people that are just going to conform to whatever they're like set of tasks is for their job in this bigger chain.

And they have to siphon away more value from the people that are actually productive to pay themselves.

Not not even in a bad way, but just in a logical, self interested, following the incentive way.

Yeah, and, and look for for people that like it's very understandable why one would want to have a cushy government job that's quote UN quote, guaranteed.

That's guaranteed until that government collapses.

And like, if you don't think governments collapse, I would really recommend that you read some history because it definitely does happen.

And also I would read some economic history about what are usually the conditions that create governments collapsing, such as inflationary Fiat money.

So like this idea of, of safety and security, again, it's like a really, it's a really warm fuzzy idea, but like, is it actually sincere or true?

No.

And furthermore, like is there an actual moral and ethical problem that comes about with this?

There is.

I've found one of the things is that like a lot of times that people want like a quote, UN quote, comfy and secure job is that there's a particular form of nihilism of like it doesn't seem like you could actually go out into the world and create a business or create value for other people and actually be entrepreneurial and productive for other people because because like it's risky, it's scary, it's difficult.

There's a lot of potential problems that can come up from it.

And so with that, like a lot of people just go, whoa, that's like too scary and too risky.

I'll take this safe, comfortable job.

And again, it's like safe and comfortable in this very small particular context.

But the problem is, is that like you, you just need to look at how the Fiat monetary system is created through debt creation.

And like right now if you crunch the numbers like none of this works out.

And like you guys in Europe, you guys have been subjected to a particularly maniacal experiment of where like you don't have actual economic sovereignty over your countries anymore.

Like it it has been collectivized into the euro and specifically that has created for a lot of long standing problems that like this can can't get kicked down the road forever.

And frankly, like millennials have been left holding the bag in a way that like you guys are going to be punished in the most extreme and severe way as that fallout happens.

And again, like if you don't think it can happen, read history like this is what has happened repeatedly many times in the last 100 years.

And so for me, a lot of times it's like understand the consequence of the very real problems that are going to get produced by the current world order and how monetary systems function.

And understand that, like, that means that the value of our currencies are probably going to go to zero.

That like hyperinflation will eventually come.

And if you're going to protect yourself from that, like do you want to hold something like property or gold?

That might be a good idea.

But then the problem is, is that I go, hey, you're a capitalist piece of shit and you stole from other people to get that.

I'm going to murder you now and take that because you physically have it.

And by me killing you, I can take it, you know, but Bitcoin, if you at least the the physical extraction of it is more difficult, particularly if you're setting it up with things like multi sig, you have depreciating key orders and like it's becoming more problematic with wrench attacks.

But I do think that in theory it is better than having a bar of gold.

And I also think that like these systems are going to get more robust and how they can protect you.

And there's a number of systems that work very well such as multi seg and there are collaborative custodians such as Unchained or Anchor Watch that provide additional layers of security that like I think are pretty great compromises to try to secure and protect yourself if you have a substantial amount of Bitcoin.

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It's, it's nothing new, but again, we are in a cushy nice environment and the money still worked etcetera.

And to tie to millennials, right?

Like my, my biggest insight is I know that there's no like pension for me.

This, this whole idea of pension is gone for me.

This whole idea of, of, of, of social services and, and stuff, right?

Like social benefits and stuff when you're, when you're older.

I I honestly think that's gone so.

Yeah, and same thing for Americans.

Like the idea of Social Security is extinct.

There's no like the the math does not add up.

And so it's really important to understand there's this massive gap between the current boomer generation who has just gotten to like they they get to live freely and take advantage of these social services that will not exist in a few.

Decades, yes.

Frankly, it's been highly immature of people to essentially go, these aren't my problems.

The government will deal with it because the government is supposed to be accountable to people or go like, I should be able to count on them.

And like that's, that's just not true anymore.

I'm not sure the exact nature of why that's the case, but like, it very clearly is.

And I think that to reject the notion of taking the problem seriously and just trying to be like, oh, those people over there will solve it for me.

It is it.

It's very problematic.

And I think that's going to find people in a position that they're going to wish, whether it's a year or five years or 10 years from now, that they had been more considerate about taking personal responsibility for themselves and what it means to secure a the ability to actually have economic security into the future.

Because like with that ad in the paper, like the government can promise you a great and cushy job.

But the problem is it's like if the government is non functional or it has a highly inflationary currency, you're in a much worse place than when you started.

And also like now that you're in the middle of the mess, everybody else is in the middle of that same mess too.

And trying to escape from it's going to be all the more difficult.

And like also on that, that idea of taking self responsibility, people need to understand that like there's a real opportunity to create a much better and brighter future for everybody by being technologically literate and forward-looking and understanding Bitcoin and sort of the opportunity to afford.

Because like there's all kinds of niches inside of Bitcoin that that people can approach and utilize Bitcoin for themselves to create great small businesses that can be profitable and that they can use Bitcoin to save and that they can protect themselves from onerous government regulations.

And like, it's a really powerful thing, but people need to take responsibility for themselves in order to do that.

Millennials, I think we grew up in like the best time to ever grow up of anyone whoever maybe lived right.

So we, everything just worked for us, like the government worked for us, the money worked for us, right?

So I also don't really blame our generation in the sense that they're, that, that it's hard for them to realize that this is this what we're talking about is, is, is the real predicament we're, we're in, right?

So I, I, I don't, I don't blame them, but I do think it's staring us in the face.

Like, it's not a hard thing to eventually realize.

Like you don't have to do years of research or whatever.

I think it's more like a like an ego check thing, right?

Like, it's just if you're confronted with this, this totally different paradigm that exists and and is explained could be explained in a rational and objective way, then yeah, that goes totally against this really nice rich life you have in a Western country as a millennial, right?

Like, it's not, it's not a nice realization.

That's kind of my conclusion.

Like I think people have big, big hesitancy against just accepting that predicament basically.

Yeah.

And, and working through that nihilism is really difficult because particularly if you don't have something like Bitcoin as a tool to help you understand that it's very dark and it doesn't seem like there is any potential to extricate yourself from the problem that is presented there.

And to me, like, again, that's sort of what the bigger picture that Bitcoin is about is that like, yeah, while nation states, governments and monies are probably going to fail, like people are still going to be here and like people are still going to need to eat and be able to have an ability to exchange with each other.

And bitcoins can deliver on that.

And like, even in the situation of failing infrastructure and other things, it's still going to be operable.

And like, the future we're going into is going to be pretty wild.

And I think more than just having governments collapse, like there's going to be this deep tightening of an economic crisis that like surveillance is going to become much more prominent.

Taxations be going to become much more heavily and regulations going to become much more onerous.

And the question is, is like, are are you going to be able to survive inside of that system with you needing to get a handouts at all?

Like you need to get permission in order to do everything?

Or would you rather choose a permissionless system where you can choose for yourself who and how you can transact and interact with other people?

To me, the latter makes a lot more sense than the former.

Because in the former, like you have to ask for permission to do things.

And a lot of times you won't get permission to do those things for whatever stupid reason is given.

And you won't be, you won't have a way to resist it.

And that's that's really important for people to understand.

You mentioned Bitcoin treasury companies, maybe that's part of your, of your answer to this question.

But what do you think is like the biggest ideological compromise you see that the the Bitcoiners are making today, right?

Like whether it's favoring convenience over privacy or centralization over self custody, like what what do you think weakens this idea of this collective sovereignty where we could be going?

Like, what are people doing today to kind of undermine that or, or, or misconstrue that?

Yeah, but both conveniency over privacy and centralization over decentralization like like Bitcoin very easily can just become another stock or asset, particularly if it gets fully integrated into the financial system as a lot of these Bitcoin treasury companies want to do.

I mean, like the, the big discovery that was made in this last cycle that Michael Saylor pioneered is that like you can build new and different exotic financial products on top of Bitcoin, which like play very well inside the contemporary financial system.

Because like it's that's the whole game is making new exotic financial products that you can sell and make a shit load of money off of.

And like, Saylor did that very well and then everyone else who came after him trying to copy him didn't do it so well.

Because like, it's really a first mover advantage kind of thing.

In addition to like the conveniency of keeping your Bitcoin on a centralized exchange is convenient for a number of reasons.

But like you, you really sacrifice privacy.

In addition to like if there is a realistic 61-O2 attack where the government chooses that they're going to seize Bitcoin from centralized exchanges like you're you're shit out of luck.

And so like Bitcoin doesn't really do anything special or unique when it's held in treasury companies or in centralized exchanges.

You know, same thing.

Like if your Bitcoin is KYC D and then you use that to send it to Palestinian dissidents, well, guess what?

Like the FBI is going to be knocking at your door because like you have now just funded a terrorist organization.

And so like privacy is a really important thing because like you need to be able to actually protect yourself in addition to the fact of that, like you shouldn't be doxing how much Bitcoin you own to the world.

And when you have KYC Bitcoin, you've done that to the company that you're, you know, doing that with.

And so like there's thoughtful ways to use things like pay join or coin join or, or other ways to be able to obfuscate the not only the amounts that you're holding, but but where you've sent them to, in addition to like taking self custody with your Bitcoin using multi sig where like you have geographically distributed your keys is not terribly difficult.

And I would recommend for most people to look into that.

And, you know, like it, it's really important that people understand like the these are these are real tools that are going to help you secure your own ability to have privacy and the ability to economically protect yourself when nobody else can.

And like, you don't have a meaningful way to be able to predict a future where either of those things are going to be deprived from you.

It's like even just as a safety vehicle, just keeping some of your money there as like a fall back is really important in my opinion.

But also like, yeah, at the end of the day, like, and this is what my book Crypto Sovereignty is about, is like, I, I don't think Bitcoin really has much to do with being an economic tool nearly as much as it has to do with being a political tool.

Like I think the Internet is this radically powerful vehicle that we could use to reorganize yourself and create a much better future for all people everywhere.

But like, we need to realize that, like, the moment is upon us to, like, seize this vehicle.

And like, the way to do it is through the praxis that Bitcoin has taught us is that like a decentralized, cryptographically secure system allows for a robust methodology to create a really fair system.

And whether that's an economic system or political system there, there's a viable way to create and use that.

And so I think that that's the most important thing that people kind of understand that Bitcoin provides is this ability to be able to freely and openly transact with whoever you choose, however you choose.

And like, you're the one that gets to decide that.

Not a bank, not a government, not, you know, your parents, like you get to choose that.

We kind of talked about how this is the bigger thesis and also that and I agree with that.

It's it's accelerating, right?

It's becoming more and more clear that this.

I do think it's like the final part of the pendulum swing towards centralization.

It's like this, this huge, almost collective attempt at centralizing more power, which over time the pendulum will go back, I think to decentralization.

True, whatever means right?

Could be huge chaos, war, whatever.

Or it could be by the people adopting tools that can help them fight back to this, you know, centralizing force.

What are kind of the things that you are seeing that are being built like what are you what, what makes you enthusiastic?

Let's say the recent year I.

Mean.

What makes you bullish when you see what people are building?

Being here in Silicon Valley, like right now AI, it's all the rage And like my company for our, we're working on like an open source hardware component to be able to give people truly private AI that like, you know, nobody can see that data or have access to it.

And watching this develop is really cool.

Like I, I think open source technology is really powerful and open source AI is extraordinarily powerful because like these are really important tools that all people should have access to.

And I think it's really dangerous with the amount of information people are putting into these frontier models that are opaque and controlled by central corporations that are using this data really against you in a pretty sophisticated way.

And again, very similar to sort of the the darkness and the nihilism that like crypto sort of has created around Bitcoin.

I think the central AI thesis has that same darkness.

But because there's this bright spot in there of there being these open source models that anybody can access and use for their own purpose, it makes me really hopeful for for the future because of the ability to do that.

And I think like this is sort of the cat and mouse game that Bitcoins playing to is that like it's utilize these institutions that are part of the the current financial and monetary system in order to further its own cause.

In the same way that like frontier models have advanced the development of these large language models on a whole.

But because open source models are right behind them and can take advantage of those developments, like it makes them all the more powerful.

And so in the same way that like Bitcoin and number go up has been really good for the open source ecosystem that's been done in this sort of strange alliance that gets created with people that don't necessarily have the same end goals as we do.

And so I ultimately believe like freedom and liberty is going to win out at the end of the day because like that's something that like, everybody truly wants to have power and agency over their own life.

And so like, I only think it's a matter of effort and time until people get to a place or having personal events come up for them where they realize that those are things that they need for themselves.

And the great thing is, is that like we now have more tools than ever before for people to achieve that on their own.

So next to open source software, open source AI, open source money, Bitcoin, what what are other steps or other topics you think are important for people to to take or study to embody this philosophy of, of, of crypto anarchy in in, in their lives?

More like what?

What do you think?

People could also or maybe should also look into what is important for you.

I mean, like, I'm a big fan of psychedelics as well because I think it opens up your mind in like a pretty radical and different way towards thinking about things in ways that you wouldn't be open to or experiencing before.

And like it, it's a very subtle thing, but I think it's really important to like experiment with these really powerful tools because they have lots of very positive effects.

But also like it's pretty hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

And like, I find that most people that have intentionally use psychedelics usually have like a pretty profound spiritual awakening.

And I think that's like a really important component of overcoming sort of the nihilism that consumes a lot of people.

But also like, I think everybody, everybody's own journey is our own private one.

And that like that's important thing to think about.

Like what does really matter to you?

And like, what is the kind of life that you want to have and where do you want to be and how much power and agency do you want to have?

And so, like, if these questions are very uninteresting to you, yeah, like maybe just getting a government job where you punch the clown, you're 9:00 to 5:00 and you don't think about bigger stuff, maybe that's actually what works for you.

Or if you do want to think about larger ideas and feel a greater empowerment and meeting in life, maybe you want to read some of these things and pursue some of these ideas.

But like, ultimately like it has to come from you and your own desires first.

Like and other people can't be the ones to lead you to it.

I think there's a really interesting convergence of like AI, Bitcoin and psychedelics.

So I love that you mentioned psychedelics, right?

Like I feel these are kind of like the ingredients for some sort of renaissance, maybe a sovereignty renaissance, like like being able through technology, old natural medicine and a profound discovery that is Bitcoin to actually take more control.

So I think it's very interesting.

There's this convergence here.

If, if we win this battle, what, what does the world look like in 1020 years?

Or is it longer?

Do you think this is this is longer?

Like how do you look at the future?

What's your, what's your time frame and, and what does it look like?

I mean, it really kind of depends on like how the zeitgeist plays out.

You know, Like I do think we ultimately win this.

I, I think what it looks like is, is we essentially have Soviet style dissolution of both the United States and the European Union.

You get some sort of other political entity that comes up after that.

If it goes in the direction that we want it, we're going to have these really powerful AIS that help collaborate and organize people through these forms of like liquid democracy and republicanism that creates.

And I think that the ordering gets pretty inverted.

Like I think cities ultimately become like the most powerful political entities, followed by counties, followed by like states or regions.

And then finally would maybe be federations that are similar to like what the United States are.

And that and through like these sort of very open, powerful AI models that can collaboratively organize people and sort of take in lots of data that's encrypted through homophoric ways and, and revealed selectively through ways that protect people's privacies.

We get these really, really powerful tools that allow for us to have like access to all kinds of different services, but we don't really have to have ownership of them.

You know, like cars can own themselves and service themselves and you can hire them and like maybe people collectively own them and it's easy to hire them out and send them to and from places.

You know, like the I'm really appreciating how much robotics and technology is going to radically transform the world.

And if we can make that something that's much more cooperatively and collectively organized by people through free association, not through governments, God forbid, there becomes a really radical opportunity for there to be a really positive and cool world where people work a lot less, have a lot more freedom and play that social and cultural objectives change in pretty radical ways.

But like we only get to that world if we actually use these technologies and thoughtful ways that allow for greater free association and the ability for people to freely and openly transact with each other.

And like, in viewing that into a new form of the political, like it, it's, it's really important that like we understand that like the current paradigm of politics and governance that we have, it's like a sick, dying thing that will suffocate us if we let it.

I'm like, we we need to beat that thing back because like the ability for people to collectivize themselves in a form of the political is really important and powerful.

And it's the only way that we defeat this other thing, unlike that other thing will happily shove us into totalitarianism and a form of very dystopian technological communism if we let it.

And so like, I think people need to be aware of that.

And then like that, that's also on us.

Like, we have to make that happen because if we don't, then it's going to be like way fucking worse for the next generation.

And there's probably no possibility of escaping from that sort of a technological machine that's designed to oppress in that kind of a way.

I think that's a great ending to to ponder on.

So thanks.

Thanks so much for your time.

I thought this was really interesting and yeah, let's let's have you back later on.

Let's see how this progresses, man, like I'm it gives me hope.

I think this is a big battle, but there's hope, right?

And.

There's definitely hope and like also, you know, the, the human condition is always going to demand its own liberty and freedom.

So like, I think we win inevitably.

The question is, is it a 10 year time span or a 50 year time span?

Yeah, All right, well, thanks so much.

We'll stay in touch and cheers, man Thank you.

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