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Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, a classic Western film and TV podcast.

My name is Hunter.

We're closing out the month of October with a conversation on s Craigzoler's Bone Tomahawk.

For this episode, we have three returning guests.

Ryan Verel, who many of you will know on social media and on his YouTube channel as the Disconnected.

Also joining in the conversation is Zach Bryant, who's probably the biggest horror movie fan out of anyone who's ever been on the podcast, and artist in Western historian David Lambert, who's the biggest fan of westerns that I know, joins us as well.

I will Ryan, it's been a while since you've been on the show, and if we talked about everything that you've been involved with since recording the Pistol Ferringo episode, that would be a podcast series all on its own.

But what have you been up to and what are some recent Blu Ray announcements you'd like to make.

Far too much.

Yeah, we've been doing quite a bit this year.

The busiest time of my life by far.

The two biggest things over the last couple of months that I could point people to the release.

And this is gonna sound really funny to talk about both of these on a Western show.

But the twenty twenty three film, The Toxic Avenger, we are on the Cineverse release of that here in the US, on the Steel book, on the four K, on the Blu ray all that we do a really really fun piece, and we brought in Tiffany Sheppis to narrate that one, and then all the way to Australia, we got to produce the disc for William Friedkin's Jade, and yes, that was released here in the States by Vinegar Syndrome, But I like to think that I went and bested what they could do for special features.

I got some really good people to talk about the film, and we definitely cover some ground that a lot of people never have.

But other than that, lots of cool stuff getting announced literally every month that we're on.

I've got the magazine that I put out pretty much every month.

Lots of good things on that note, and the next year is going to be bigger than I've ever had in my life.

So I can't wait for people to see what's been cooking all.

Right, that's awesome.

Yeah, it's always exciting to see like what you and Will and other contributors are are working on at this point as well.

And I'm actually recording with Will pretty soon and I will definitely message you afterwards just to confirm he's allowed to mention anything he announces, because I know it'd be the first time.

Yeah, he's a loose cannon, and I know that he announces things before before their time.

But and then, Zach, I'm sure there will be a horror themed episode of They Live by Film this month, So can you tell us what the what movie or movies you're going to be covering.

Yeah, So it has just moved for worthy time being to just me and Chris for anyone who's familiar with the podcast, So we've we're a man down.

Congratulations to Adam with his second child, so he gets some time off from the podcast.

But I think me and Chris are looking in to start recording for kind of a director's run through Tope Hooper's work.

We kind of felt that would probably be one of the more interesting ones to do, so hopefully we get that out pretty soon.

We're at least gonna probably get through one or two episodes with him, I think it's gonna be d the up being like three or four, so hopefully throughout October November we'll.

Have those out.

Okay, awesome, Yeah, Toby Hooper is a terrific choice.

Now, on the last episode, you guys did talk about a Western.

You talked about The Outlaw of Josie Wales.

Yes, and with you and I we'll get to that movie eventually in the next to two years or so.

But it sounded like everyone enjoyed it, and I knew that somewhere deep down inside of Chris there has been a Western fan dying to get out, and so I'm really glad to see him embracing westerns.

But yeah, that was a fun episode.

So definitely I will link that in the show notes that people should go check that out.

And if you don't like that, that you can listen to us talk about Clueless in the same episode.

Yes, yeah, yeah, Clueless and I'm I'm like you on the other one was the other one.

It was a really odd trio Vanishing Point.

Vanishing Point, that's right, Yeah, so a really fun trio of movies and then and then David.

Now I can probably guess what you've been up to.

I know you've probably been working on art posting about westerns on Twitter and Blue Sky, But is there anything else you'd like to add to that, or do you have any new or upcoming podcast appearances you can mention?

Uh?

Yeah, up coming.

I recorded an episode with The Pink Smoke about Jeremiah Johnson and the books that inspired it and the history, the actual history behind it, and I'll be and also like, uh, we go into detail about John Millius his original screenplay, which is very different from the film.

So I don't know when that will come out, but I recorded that a couple of weeks ago.

So very cool.

Now, now they did just cover Jeremiah Johnson on The Rewatchables, so and and I can guarantee that anybody who listens to this show and The Rewatchables, that your episode on The Peak Smoke will be more interesting than what they did on The Rewatchables.

For sure.

I did listen to it and it was you know, it was okay, I hope so and then, and of course, if you're listening to this, I'm sure you follow David already and if you enjoy his Twitter threads and podcast appearances, go buy him a coffee.

I did recently, and I can't think of many other people I'd rather keep caffeinated.

And I will add a link where you can support David in the show notes, and I'll add links to everywhere you can find Ryan and support Ryan and Zach as well.

Now, Zach, are you still only on letterbox?

Yes?

I despise social media completely, So that's the extent I'll do.

I do really appreciate about that about you, because I honest I think social media for the most part is pretty lousy.

But yeah, but we need to get into this now.

This is a huge episode.

I mean, this is my first time having more than one guest for one thing.

But I think a movie like Bone Tomahawk, I do think there is a lot to discuss, and I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and uh, and I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll go ahead and read a well, actually, you know what, David, you're a you're a good plot summary guy, and this is a pretty simple plot.

Oh no, no, you do you handle this uh beautifully?

Do you want to summarize the movie or I can read the IMDb synopsis?

Either way, let's have you.

Let's help you read.

Let's see, let's see how they do they they do pretty well?

Okay, all right, So in the Old West, a small town sheriff and his ragtag posse set out to rescue several townspeople from a brutal, cave dwelling, cannibalistic Indian tribe.

That's it, pretty simple.

Yeah, they didn't use the word troglodite at all, so I'm offended.

Yeah they did not.

But but Ryan, let's let's start with you.

What what what did you think of Bone Tomahawk?

I uh, I think I'm gonna come down in the middle of this whole group.

I I like it plenty.

I think that it's an enjoyable watch.

I don't think it's a masterpiece or anything like that.

My big thing that I truly enjoy about this movie is just fairly cohesively bringing together this pretty wide spanning cast that is not people that you'd ever really expect to be in the same project.

And I don't know, it just grasps a lot of different fan bases to grab onto that guy type of characters, and especially for when it came out, it's certainly one that I mean, there's like every other scene, it feels like there's a reference to something that either they've been in or or something that you can point to and just oh, it's cool to see him in this or something.

Yeah, there's just a lot of familiar faces, and the story itself is compelling enough, even though I feel like it starts to drag in the second act.

But yeah, it's a fairly typical Zolor joint.

Yeah.

Now, I do agree that the cast is pretty It is a very interesting, kind of eclectic bunch of people.

But Zach, now, I you've logged this movie several times on letterbox and you rate it pretty highly.

So so yeah, so what about this movie has made you such a big fan of it?

So I kind of came into the movie kind of.

I watched it, What did it come about?

Twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, somewhere around that.

At that point, i'd actually been familiar with Zolar through his novels Raiateth of Broken Land and Congregation of Jackals.

So I was very excited for this because he was an author I really enjoyed through those two projects, and I really, I really thought he took the elements of those two novels and made something interestingly simpler than either one of them as far as and I would say the simplest of his three films as well.

But I think that's ultimately what makes it so enjoyable.

Is it really is?

I guess that it's hard a drama.

It's about these We talk about the four actors who almost seemed like they wouldn't even be in the same project.

Well, that's kind of the care characters as well.

They are very different.

They have a lot of things that annoy each other.

And I think that's the element that I ultimately like.

Yeah, I like a dude getting solid in half.

I like violence.

That's all really cool, and I think it's awesome.

I think it's a cherry on top of the film, But no, I've had a lot of love for it.

I love the dialogue in the film.

I liked it when I wrote it, when I read his novels, and it's something he's carried on very well.

Yeah, and I think it's one of the I think it's probably the most rewatchable of his three.

Where I Think We're All is probably my favorite, but Bo Tomahawk is one I'll come back to more often.

Gotcha?

Yeah, Now, Now, David, do you want to go next?

Or do you want me to go first?

Yeah, let's have you go first.

Okay, Okay.

So I originally saw the movie, probably not too long after it came out, maybe twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen, and I had heard great things about it, and I'm a huge Kurt Russell fan, so an ultra violent like Kurt Russell starring Western horror movie was something I was very excit and on a first time watch, I really struggled with the pacing and I found some of the dialogue to be pretty poorly written, like almost laughable.

But there were some things that I enjoyed about the movie, I mean mostly the gore, and I do think the extreme violence that comes at the end is very effective and it did help give my kind of my overall experience of watching the movie a pretty big boost.

But I still thought it was kind of like mediocre at best, and outside of the violence, like nothing really stuck with me rewatching it For this, Like, my opinion hasn't changed a whole lot, if anything, has gone down a little bit, and the pacing and the writing are still just the main issues for me, Like I can enjoy a leisurely paced movie.

But I do think like the visceral impact of this movie could be much more powerful if it had been tightened a bit, and if they had trimmed some scenes or even just eliminated some scenes entirely.

And I think the opening scene is kind of everything that's good and bad about Zalor like in just a few minutes, where like the good I really I think is mostly just the violence, even though you don't really see it much in the opening scene.

I do think the extended kind of throat slashing is effective, and the audio I think really makes that work as well, But I find everything else about it to be sort of goofy.

Like I love Sid Hay like from his kind of like his days and you know, working with Jack Hill, and I think he's a pretty fun B movie actor.

I even enjoy him and Rob Zombie for the most part.

But the dialogue they give him and David Arquette in this scene I think is pretty rough.

And like it and it's funny because sometimes I can't tell if he's being comedic or if it's just bad writing, because there there's a line in particular, there's a scene where Hagen Arquette they're being you know, hunted down by the Trogladites, and you hear some and you hear the sound of someone running by them, and David Arquette says, is that us which like it?

Like James Franco saying that in a stoner comedy might be funny if he thinks if he hears people running and thinks that's him actually doing the running, But here it's just weird.

It doesn't make any sense.

And yeah, and the key word is is goofy.

Now, I wouldn't say I hate the movie.

I think it's it's watchable and there's some moments that I think are worth sticking around for, especially if you if you've never seen it before.

But I really can't imagine this is something that I would be returning to.

But but David, that that brings us to you, I'm very curious to hear your thoughts.

Yeah.

So uh With s Craig Zalor, I had actually the first thing that I had the first time I had heard about him was with his script The Brigands of Rattleborgs and and it was like on the Blacklist, and it was highly praised, so h and I and it was very uncompromising and very violent, all these things that I heard, So I said, that sounds great.

So I found a copy online and then read it and wasn't a big fan.

But you know, I've I've kept up with his career because he is a filmmaker who I would I in spirit.

He's the type of filmmaker I like in a way, you know, because he can be very uncompromising and and he's playing around in a genre that I love.

But uh, you know, I've never I've never really been able to get on board with his work.

I read his two Western novels.

I like those better than like his screenplays or his films.

I still had big issues with him.

So yeah, and then I'd read this the Bone Tomawk Script before it came out because I was just interested in seeing it.

I like, I thought the concept was interesting, and then I pretty much fall where you're at the pacing of it.

And kind of the absurdity of it.

It's and and then also like the way he you know, the way he makes his films, Like I think I told you this before.

It's like he thinks he's the the like Robert Bursont of Gory Pulp, you know, and and and I understand, like for the people that love Zala, like that is the juice, that's what they like.

And I and I get that it just doesn't work for me.

Is like the these very pulpy, absurd stories.

But then just like having such a drawn out, sort of flat style.

And I do appreciate that, like he films the violence, like he films the conversations that he's mentioned that so that it just kind of, you know, is more effective.

And I know that he was like a big gore hound and he was inspired by like Men behind the Sun and the way that the violence was portrayed in that because it wasn't these like lukeiofoulty close ups.

Of you know, gore and stuff.

It was you know, it was just a far more And anyone who's seen that movie, which is insane movie, we can get that.

So but it just feels to me like the stuff is so drawn out that I'm just often I'm sitting and thinking about how surd the story is, or the world is, or the dialogue is.

Like a lot of some of his dialogue is actually really good, but he overall find him undisciplined because like with his dialogue, it's obvious.

He's trying to do like a Charles portis True Grit, you know most Western Western's after True Grit kind of tried to mimic that style of dialogue, which is a more Shakespearean, you know, King James Bible sort of thing, because that's how that's what people read.

So but he doesn't like from what I read of his stuff, he does like no research.

So it's like all these like colloquialisms that he's made up, and they're usually not as good as the real ones.

You know, it's like there's not actually and there'll be things in there like you trained your horse on bigotry, and it's like, well, that doesn't sound like something that someone in the nineteenth century would say, you know, I mean outside it just it seems like an absurd line.

It's also like you know, they that would be considered something they talk about, like with religion, not race or anything anyway.

But I just find him undisciplined.

That's like this film is like ninety nine percent his scripts, so he doesn't seem like he cuts anything down and he and for other people that works for me, I just you know, it just never it never gels and and I'll get into other stuff later, but I don't want to get on our big rent.

That's why I said I wanted to wait wait because you know, I want I want, you know, I want the people to like it to you know, because I don't hate it.

I there's a lot of stuff that enjoy it so and I and I will talk about that stuff too later, But that's my an.

Is Zach like, what what are the things about his style or writing that you have have been drawn to in his work?

I think David actually hit a part.

I think he actually hit it well where it's this idea that you do it in such a flat way, and I do think that is a big appeal for me.

I think that is what truly works for me, because I there there's I think it's just so matter of fact in the way it presents itself.

And yeah, it's absurd, but I also really like absurd, Like I like when something absurd is taken incredibly seriously for almost no reason, and that's just going to jail with me a little bit better.

I think a lot of his novels hit that as well, like probably his latest novel, which was The Slanted gutter Way Overwritten like tome of a thing that has way too many pages to it and it is incredibly ridiculous when you like break it down.

But I think he is so like committed to it to a point where it ends up working like incredibly well.

And I think it is kind of a risky way to go about it in its own sense, and I think it's unrelenting.

I guess that'd be the word.

And like it's he is going to make the type of thing that interest him almost and if anyone happens to like it, they like it.

But I think that's kind of why, you know, when he made Dragged Across Concrete it ended up being a big thing because he refused to cut the film down.

Like that was supposed to get a theatrical release and he refused to cut it down and it went straight to video.

Kind of good because we talk about that a lot with you know, people should stand up more to their producers.

But then there's the other side of sometimes it is worth cutting things down for that producer.

Yeah.

Now, for me, the absurdity doesn't come from any of the extreme violence or the kind of the extreme nature of the movie.

The absurdity for me comes more from like the dialogue and the characters.

It's like this weird match of like it doesn't gel for me, like the characters, and then the tone and the dialogue just doesn't come together for me.

And there's stuff in this that I think, this is like my fourth time saying goofy, but so I forgive me for not coming up with another word.

But there's stuff like the sex scene in this movie to me, is just plays as comedy.

Like her her the way she expresses kind of pleasure once he gets once he switches to being on top of her, is just like a joke.

To me, It's so ridiculous.

And then you have but everything's played so straight that and maybe that's part of the problem.

Maybe if he leaned more into humor, maybe it would work better.

But I think it's just they play it too straight and it just comes off as being awkward or something.

I don't know.

Like, Ryan, what do you think about the the performances in the characters, like in the way that they're written.

I mean they're I guess the word I've always used, Yes, it is pretty silly, but I would almost say like heightened to a point where it's, you know, trying to get them to jump off the screen in a way, because if we were doing this historically accurate or based on, you know, the cloquialisms of the time, a lot of that just won't be in his mind, probably simply as interesting, and so he just wants it to come across as I'm being subversive, because of course they would never say this, but that that's why this is funny, and that's why it's me because it's over the top, and I think there's really only a couple of filmmakers that truly get away with that in an interesting way sometimes.

And I'm not even saying it's always interesting for him, because even this film, it's not always interesting but him.

And obviously the go to for everybody when talking about this is probably Rob Zombie, because he's got certain scenes where his dialogue makes sense.

He's got certain films where the dialogue makes sense, and then there are others that it falls completely flat, and you just wonder, Okay, so you know that there are seven profane words and those are on your script eight hundred and fourteen times, can you do anything else?

But with Zolor At least in my mind, it's around a compelling story.

It's based around characters that seem fairly fleshed out.

I mean even the small amount of time that we get with sid Hague and the officer Dewey in the beginning, which I've had every time that I see this, and he's in the beginning, the way that they are completely interacting with each other, you already know so much about their characters because of that dialogue, and so I think, like you said, in that opening, it truly is like the perfect tone setting opening for this film.

Does it work with every line?

No, not necessarily, however, like how much I just think sid Haig is this old curmudgeon that just wants to do his job and go the fuck home.

I like that about his character, and it at least draws me in.

And then already when it happens four and a half minutes and into it, I'm kind of torn up when he gets jacked up.

Yeah.

Yeah, And no, nobody likes to see Sid Hag kind of you know, bite the dust in a movie.

But now, David, now, one thing I did want to ask, like as far as like historical accuracy, not relating to the dialogue necessarily, but with the the troglodytes and the idea of like, you know, cannibalistic Native Americans.

Now, I know, I remember reading in like is it Empire of the Summer Moon, And I think it's the book where they talk about the Tankawas were like a cannibalistic tribe.

Now we're now we're the Chargolodites that that Now, I know you said he didn't do any research, but what were the Trigla dights based on them?

On any level?

I don't think so, I he I know his he is really influenced by h Ryder Haggard, who wrote like, uh what like King Solomon's Minds, I think, And oh, okay, he wrote a lot of lost race stories, lost race fiction, and Zala is a big fan of that, and so but you know his stuff would be like in Africa, you know, right, and uh and you know he's he's a he's an ify character himself, like uh, you know, like Kenya's like premiere like novelist whose name I'm gonna probably butchered.

Googie wat Tiogo called him like the genius of racism.

So so that's you know, so there's a there there's a bit of an issue even though he.

Has this native character who who is called the professor, and he kind of comes out it's it's almost a disclaimer.

He's like he's less of a character, more of a disclaimer, like these are not Native Americans.

I'm not portraying them now this way.

Uh, you know, don't don't get on my.

Back right, kind of tries to his beds a little bit, which which is like, there's there's still issues there because yeah, for outside of the Tungkwa, which is a rigualistic, ritualistic thing, natives did not they it was anathema to to to practice cannibalism, and we have and and so uh that's why the Tongue call were almost wiped up by the Comanche, and then the Texas Rangers used to hunt down the Commanche.

So it was like, so the so the whites teamed up with the native cannibals, the only known native cannibals to fight the other tribes.

But but you know, there's a there's a there's a bad history there just because like Queena Isabella for example, said they you weren't allowed to like enslave a native person unless they were a cannibal.

So then there's a lot of mythology and stuff where people would claim that they were cannibals just so they can enslave them, right, So that's a that's an issue there.

This is not stuff that I that like it will ruin a movie for me.

I love Westerns.

It's can be they can be very regressive, you know.

But I think it's an interesting thing to mention because also in Zola's other work, in one of his novels, I can't remember because they all have kind of similar names, but he has a tribe of cannibals.

He makes another tribe and they're cannibals.

They're not these like prehistoric you know, cave dwelling ones in this movie.

But uh.

And then also in his script The Brigands of Rattle Borge uh, which is going to be maybe made by uh part ten wook.

Well we'll get into that a second.

But but anyway, and that one, he has two native tribes that are that practice cannibalism and uh, it's it's which is crazy because that script also has like a part where, uh, there's like a suburb with like cars and driveways and stuff.

So I'm like, when does this take place?

There's there's like, you know, that's the kind of stuff where it's like what do you what?

What?

What do you?

What?

Is this?

But anyway, so it's like, is it a lack of just originality if he just wants to recycle these ideas and sometimes if you do read his novels stuff things things that he does there, he'll put them in later movies, uh, and and things like that or you know, or or he just has this kind of obsession And and I don't think he's doing it like in a way that he's purpose.

I just think he's ignorant of these aspects, you know.

Yeah, And I and I do feel that that native character is kind of it's kind of to me a weak ass excuse, like.

You know, hey, this isn't that you guys.

And then you know, and Zala kind of does stuff like that to hedges bets, you know, because of course he's the smartest guy in the movie and everything.

You know, he's the professor.

You wouldn't expect that, So how could this movie be problematic in any way?

So that stuff is also an issue, which I think wouldn't be as over all with his whole work.

This movie gets a little bit more of an excuse, I think.

But I think that also once again stems from just like not really not being disciplined in certain ways.

He's disciplined in the fact that he writes.

He's so prolific.

But like I said, and yes, I know, research is not like the main important part of a Western, but it is when you're, for me, if you're gonna be this kind of indulgent and uncompromised, I just think it would make his work better the same way I think that like you know, being willing to like trim some stuff or or or you know, I think what I just I just think it would improve his work and so that that's just always an issue, and it makes some of his stuff, at least in his Westerns for me, problematic, but you know I love a lot of problematic westerns of course.

But yeah, anyway, yeah, now I do I do agree.

I wish because you sent me the script to the to the it's just called the Brigands now right then they change the title the Brigands of Rattle Creek now of Rattle Creek, Okay, And and yeah, I do agree, it would be he would really benefit from having some research because he because he is kind of I mean, outside of like maybe Taylor Sheridan.

He even though he's kind of moved away from Westerns, he's been making more crime films, Like he is like one of the people that one of the only filmmakers that's associated with the Western genre at this point at all, And so I do think that that's something he could he could definitely benefit from.

Now, now, I did kind of want to talk about the the kind of the influences on the movie.

I think that there are a couple obvious ones.

I mean, I think this movie is basically The Hills Have Eyes like meets The Searchers.

Now.

Now, now Zach now talking about it purely as a horror movie, Like, do you do you think that somebody who do you think you have to be a fan of Westerns to enjoy this or do you think that you cannot be a fan of Westerns and just enjoyed as a horror movie.

I mean, I kind of have two thoughts about it.

I think it doesn't need a background in like knowing the tropes of Westerns to necessarily like understand it or to get along with it, because I mean, as you guys mentioned, there's there's It's not like it's heavily researched into that, into that idea or to that.

But I also think it is more Western than horror, Like the horror really comes in.

Uh, I'd say, the what is it?

I guess the end of the first act when the uh Troglodite Native Americans end up in the town in that short scene, and then really the second half of the third act everything else is just kind of survival Western, you know, the whole second act is most of the first and third are as well.

So I wouldn't.

I wouldn't.

I would not recommend it to somebody who was like, I like, I don't like Westerns.

I don't.

I don't like even though it's that's kind of the tough part about it.

Like, I think it's more Western in the sense that there's you spend more time just out in the wilderness in a sense on horseback than necessarily building up the horror for.

The third act.

Yeah, no, Ryan, did you One other movie I thought about that might be an influence is the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

As far as like like with the Touch Chaseaw Massacre lately, there's the family they use everything like the cow bones and stuff to build furniture, with and then the chocolate ice use bones and stuff to make weapons with.

But what did you, uh, were there any other kind of movies that you saw that would maybe be a major influence on this.

I mean, there's I'm not gonna throw out specific titles here, but there's a few, like period piece specific sort of exploitation titles that are really based around kidnappings.

And I think that that, especially that one set piece in the beginning of the film where it's just what's going on, like the whole town frazzled because all of this just happened and nobody really knows, and and attacking in the night the way that they did to to just remain undetected.

It certainly gives the feeling of quite a few of those seventies films that have a lot of those, because a lot of that was built around the paranoida of like the rise of the serial Killer around that time, and things like The Hills Have Eyes are to me like the perfect parallel for especially that first act of setting the pace for everything.

But yeah, then I'm pretty squarely with Zach.

It leans especially after that, like the extended opening period, it leans quite heavily into like I don't want to say basic Western tropes, but if you are not used to westerns or not that you need references necessarily, but if you're not expecting that, I could see if you were expecting a full blown horror movie to almost, you know, fifteen minutes into this start going well, I need more to be happening, and that's you know, the attention span problem these days is unfortunately in the light there as well.

Yeah, now, now, David, I did read.

I did read a couple reviews of this, and they referenced Sam peckinpah as being an inflow And the only Pec and paw ask thing that I can see in this is there are a couple of moments where something kind of like violent will happen and it'll cut away to a like a wide shot the location, which is something like you see Sam Peck and Paw do and bring the head about Freda Garcia, like when they I think somebody breaks a young girl's finger or something and it just cuts away to a wide shot of the house.

But I don't know, did you see kind of any other Western filmmaker influence on the movie.

I don't know about specific I get influences I mean, Peg and Paw is there just because I think they're uncompromising.

Then, And that is something that I do on a too.

That I do like about this movie, and I do like about a lot of his Westerns, is that he for the most part, fries to give the characters the attitudes that they would have, and he just kind of accepts them.

So you have the character of Bruder who really hates Indians and brags about how much these company's killed and everything, and there's the movie doesn't really place judgment on him.

It's just a fact and I and I appreciate that matter of factness, and I do appreciate the at least trying to, you know, capture what their actual attitudes would be.

But you know, I think it's I think there's just more.

You know, he's obviously the Breweder characters of you know, kind of the gambler, southern gentleman, a little bit of the tinge of Doc Holliday in there.

You know.

So that's that's a that's a standard you know, Western archetype.

And then of course, yeah, you know, Richard Jenkins plays you know, the equivalent of you know, you know and al Saint John or you know, or Fuzzy Knight or something, or Walter Brennan type side stupid sidekick character and and and he and and like even though I think a lot of the writing for that character is kind of stupid.

H it's like maybe a little too much, but I don't, you know, but it's but I think Jenkins makes it really work.

And I do think a lot of the actors do make you know, uh, you know, a lot of Zollar's dialogue work.

And I don't want to say like like I hate his dialogue.

I just think it's sometimes very clunky and I think sometimes it's it just feels like he's using it the sorest uh and but.

Uh yeah, so so those aspects, you know.

I remember when this when it hit, this came out, and I would be like on whatever badass digest that old site, a wonderful movie website.

Uh but uh and I was like, you know, kind of commenting about my issues with the movie.

You know how I felt like a lot of it felt like just watching guys camping in real time, and uh yeah, and uh, I would get a lot of comments from people, I like, you just probably don't really like westerns, do you.

And I's like no, I do, Uh, that's not what most like Westerns are usually better paced than this.

You know, I can only think of like, you know, like the shooting is maybe paced like this, but it's like half as long, or or like what was that Kelly Reichart movie.

Oh Mills cuts cut off?

Yeah me, he's cut off.

Yeah, this is a look like this is a little like a verbose Meeks cut off with cannibals in it.

I wish I wish they were cannibals and meets cut off.

Yeah, me too.

That's not my favorite either, so.

But so and and like I like, I do like his characters overall, Like I think they're like, I think they're entertaining enough.

I don't think they're like, you know, amazing, uh, these amazing creations.

You know.

I know he's talked like because his writing style is very much reads like kind of you know, bad Cormick McCarthy his actual prose even in his scripts.

But he's like I know a lot of people were like he should direct Blood Meridian, and uh, he's not a fan of Blood Meridian.

So he's ripping off someone who's ripping off McCarthy.

But but his complaint was like that the characters, like he didn't feel anything for the characters, you know, which is kind of the point.

But his characters are like, you know, it's like they're not I don't find them like these super well rounded, you know.

It's like oftentimes the character will just be like he really loves his wife, you know, just so yeah, he's tough and he really loves his wife, and it's like, okay, so yeah, I so, you know, But but I like when I with this movie, it is I do feel like if if someone cut it down, which you know, for the the Zollar purists, that's obviously you know, that's not what you want.

But for me, like if this was like an hour and a half movie, I might, you know, even with all the penis and my other issues with it, I might like it as it is.

I'm kind of in the middle with it, you know, because I think that there is a fun movie in here.

Yeah.

And speaking of cutting it down, the editor is actually Fred Raskin, who has been cutting Tarantino's movies since Django Unchained.

And of course the main complaint is is that all those movies need to be all of the post in Glory, all the posts Sally making Tarantina movies need to be trimmed down, and so I know that s Craig Zoler is a visionary, but I also think Fred Raskin he might be an editor who just can't defend his opinions and just can't get anything cut.

After seeing this, and I think I actually don't know if he edited the other Zalar movies, but I think he might.

If he has a dedication in one of his books to Fred raska even before he made any movies.

I'm not gonna put it on brass skin, I think because because here's the thing.

Uh, most people seem to really love zalar stuff, you know what I mean.

So it's like it's working for him, you know what I mean, and the people that love his stuff, you know, like for them, for them, you know, Like for me, it's like, I don't think I need to see Vince Vaughn eat an entire sandwich, like an unbroken shot of it.

But other people it's like, no, like that, you know, that's what it would be like on a stake out.

He's capturing that.

I get that, you know, But I just feel like it's in Congress because the rest of the movie is kind of absurd, so it's not like a realistic take on being a copy either.

So it's that's where I you know, that's where for me that the disconnect happens.

Gotcha, Yet, Now I do want to talk about a little bit of the script, the brigands of of of it's called Rattle Creek.

Now, yeah, I uh, I will say after reading that, I I do think Bone Tomahawk is better than that movie potentially will be this script.

I'm going to read a little bit of dialogue from this because I think I sent this to you, David.

But there's a scene.

I won't do the whole setup, but I'll start at the beginning, and I think this can lead to something else as well.

But all right, so this starts off with the scene asking one character is asking another character.

He says, do you suppose he's been raping her continually since we left him?

And then the character responds, I believe you mean continuously and the other characters as well, that's what I said, And the guy responds, no, you said continually, which would mean repeatedly or in repeated succession, but with breaks in between.

Yet, what I believe you wanted to know was if he had been raping that savage without stopping since noon yesterday, whether Jordan has been having his way with her continuously for twenty four hours, and that we talked about Tarantino a little bit.

That feels like bad Tarantino or or maybe like Rob Zombie.

And and I'm curious, like, like Zach, you are a Oh wait, Zach, did you say you read the script?

I can't remember.

I don't read scripts before the movies come out.

Oh that's right, that's right.

Dang it.

Well, David, this is going back to you, like, what what do you think Park Chan Wook sees in this?

Because I I did read the script, now I had to.

I read the first eighty pages all the way through, but then the last fifty pages or so I kind of skimmed.

But I think this is like significantly worse than Bone Tomahawk.

I don't I'm you know, I'm not.

I'm not sure, but I think I think that Park Chan Wook has wanted to make a western Uh.

He was originally attached to the Revenant and he was going to make it starring Samuel L.

Jackson.

And yeah, and then that you know that that kept bouncing between different filmmakers, and that was a different script than that that because that movie has kind of a bad They really made that one kind of bad.

But uh so I think because it has all these concepts of revenge and stuff, you know, like it's sort of trying to explore that, I guess.

And that's and that's the thing is like I read that script before I saw any of Zalar's films because that there weren't any.

It was before he made any.

But uh when I read it, I was like.

I imagined a style that was closer to Park Chan Wook because it's like has stuff in it where you know, the bad guy's plan is too to kidnap a native chief's daughter, right and then force them to do a rain dance so that they make the rain just pour over this town so they can basically go to it's like a small group of guys, I don't even know how many, like four or five, I don't know, so they can just basically go and slaughter this entire town while it's just raining really heavy and rob them all.

Yeah, and it's like that kind of stuff is like it's like, oh, there's just this weird like their plan was hinging on this weird supernatural element and they're just like the weird grotesque guy and just a lot of those crazy touches.

I felt went more with Park Chandwook's style, which could become very surreal and it's very operatic, and his movies are often very like Old Boy is also very absurd if you really think about it.

But it's a great movie because I feel the style is appropriate, like you know, so I'm honestly like he might be able to do like a great version of it.

I hope that there's some rewriting, like they've changed the title, so hopefully they start.

They changed some of the other things in there.

But I am actually interested in that.

And Zalor himself is not.

He said he was.

He he said he doesn't think that, you know, you can get good performances through a translator.

Uh so yeah, so Zaler's not excited about Park cham book making it, but he was trying to get it made years ago and it's just come up again.

But he was gonna get it made.

I think with Matthew McConaughey, so okay, yeah that yeah, But I just like the absurd like revenge that the guy has at the end of it and everything.

It's like, like, you know, the methods and all that, Like, I feel that could really appeal to him because it's so baroque and everything.

And that's why that one would be a very strange movie to watch actually directed by Zalor, because I can't imagine like some of those touches being done in that really flat, you know, Bersonian style.

Right.

Yeah.

Now, one thing I think we should bring up is uh now, yeah, now, now you mentioned that you he said that you can't get a good performance through a translator, and something that he has been accused of is kind of making movies that are right wing, I guess you would say, and possibly even even like racist, Like uh, Zach what like?

What would you Is that something that you would agree with?

And is that something that you think is present in Bone, Tomahawk or more so his other movies.

You're you're probably barking up the wrong tray for me when it comes to the political stuff in movies.

I'll be honest, Okay, yeah, I'm probably I am not the person to ask about that.

Well, Ryan, what do you think?

I have not strong feelings on this, but I actually think a lot of the discourse around this has been quite tone deaf.

I think there's a lot of people that the moment they see somebody that is in a film that believes anything or even has like if the view has any inkling that this person believes something different than them, they get turned off immediately.

Especially with the way that people are essentially like driven to be divisive in twenty twenty five.

I can understand on the surface level why some of these things would come across as right wing, I guess in the very broad way.

But the reality is people are complex, and most of these characters I wouldn't classify as right or left wing.

There are characters on a screen that are people that have wide ranging beliefs, and they might say one thing one moment that screams super progressive and something the next minute that screams super conservative.

I think the realistic problem here is that there are things about Brawl and Cell Block ninety nine that are very obviously like, this person is meant to convey a racist, this person is meant to show that, and then booke that with you know, having a problem.

I hate using the word problematic whatever, but having somebody like mel Gibson involved that people just immediately scream, oh, this person is involved, so it has to be right wing.

I think is already muddying the waters in a way that Zalor doesn't really deserve with the films.

To be honest, that being said that, I feel like these are deeper than that, and I think that the people that jump to that point just don't care enough.

It also doesn't help that all of this has been wrapped up with the you know, findings of Me Too scandal with the studio that Zala was working with, and that is always, unfortunately going to taint a big feeling for a lot of people with him because they simply won't watch the films because of that.

Yeah, what do you?

What do you think?

David?

And then I also wanted to bring up another thing, not just political, but the treatment of the women in his movies, like in in the in this in the script, Uh, I mean they like rape is just kind of like, uh, tossed around like it's not a very serious thing.

I mean, I he writes about it in kind of a weird way.

I don't know what, Like, what are your thoughts on that?

Oh, you know, I mean the the political stuff.

I don't you know, I don't really know.

I think I think he I think he does kind of skirt things in a way.

But you know there's stuff there that is you know, like that's why that's why I wanted to you know, that's why I try to kind of say that.

I feel like in regards to at least this the native stuff in this film, I think it's like less you know, him being right, like like wanting to be racist, and I think it's just more he didn't do it like he didn't he didn't like he didn't do like the research as to the implication.

But I don't think it was like malicious, you know, so and I don't think he cared to and I don't think and so I think there's I think there's something that is very uncompromising about him, you know, dragged across across concrete place with you know, different issues, and there's things in there.

You know.

It does have the black character who's kind of the the he comes out on top in the end, and you know, so there's that aspect and it's not you're not necessarily supposed to you know, sympathize with the with the corrupt, you know, racist cops in in the movie, but it's you know, at the same time that that the black character seems to be like the least developed, the one that he's least interested in.

But but but I, you know, like, yeah, that stuff is not you know, I the brigands of rattle Board script, I kind of felt the same way.

And I don't as you and we're going as to how much like sexual assault is in it, and.

Like I like, I don't.

I I appreciate that Zalor is uncompromising.

Uh.

I appreciate that you don't know what you're gonna see in one of his movies and it could go really dark places that you know, can be you know, and and he's very good at that.

But I also do think in that script specifically, it it is it feels a little flippant, and because it's so absurd, it's it's it feels like it's such a heavy topic.

Uh to be that flippant and such a like wacky movie feels a little weird.

But so you know, it's I'm you know, I'm of two minds because I like that he's uncompromising, but I also think that sometimes he's he's a little you know, uh, you know, he's just he's a little reckless.

But you know that's what people like maybe that you know, that is kind of DESPICI of that he's going to go reckless, you know.

So yeah, so you know, I'm of two minds of it.

But I don't, like, I don't I don't think that his There are stuff like I don't know, like in the what's the one riot or brawl and Cell Block thirteen?

Is that what it's called or something like that ninety nine?

Okay, yeah, but.

Like I know, like at least I've heard I'm not an expert on prison tattoos, but like the character has like white power tattoos, you know, which is you know, I guess if you're in prison you have to kind of join a gang or you know, because then also in that movie, he has him like correct the main his like gangster buddy who's like flowing, like you know, throwing around the N word, and he's like, I don't think he'd be saying that or something like something to that effect.

So yeah, I.

Think he likes kind of play, like getting close to that kind of stuff, But I don't, you know, I don't find his you know, I don't find his movies to be like overtly right wing.

I think they're a little bit more more complex.

Yeah, I agree.

I remember hearing the like that talk about that, especially around Dragged Across Concrete, which is the only movie of his I haven't seen actually, but he hasn't made a movie since then.

And that was twenty eighteen, and I actually thought, man, his time in Hollywood like might be done.

And I thought, well, it could have been because of people thinking that about him or about his movies.

But I think he actually does have a new another crime movie coming soon.

It's at least been.

He doesn't of course his script it looks like, oh he does have one.

Yeah, the Brawl and the Bruiser.

It originally had Brody in it and he had to drop out because of all the Oscar campaigns stuff with Brutalist and I think it's THEO James and Vince Fawn.

Now.

Yeah, he was going to do an adaptation of his novel Hugged Chickapenny, which was going to have the Henson Group involved.

That ended up falling apart.

So there's been a few projects that have showed up and he just hasn't gotten funding until recently for this one.

Gotcha.

Now, Okay, Now, Zach, I don't have a great question a great prompt for you, but I feel like there's been a lot of negative and I think we need to hear some more positive.

So what are some other things that we can hear hear from you?

You are putting me a little bit on the spot here, because I absolutely it's a terrible question.

I mean, I just really to me, I think a lot of the heart of the story for me, and what I enjoy the most when I go back and rewatch it is the scenes between Kurt Russell's character and Richard Jenkins's character, who I think is a oddly wholesome tandem in a movie that is not at all like.

I think that juxtaposition works so well in the film, you know, yeah, it's do you really need a scene where they talk about how he can like read a book without you know, dumping dumping into the bathtub.

Yeah, you don't need that.

It doesn't add anything to the story, but I think it adds as nice bit of interesting levity to it because you know, immediately after that we get into the literal Mexican standoff scene in the dark and things like that.

I think that is ultimately what I think the film strength is is these like small little parts, and I think that kind of goes back just to kind of rip off myself from the last time I talked about this on our on they Live by Film.

One thing I think with the dialogue that I think that makes this a film interesting, and I think it's that juxtaposition adds to this too, is I think I've always debated with if this movie was filmed in order because of the.

Way the dialogue is.

It's almost play like like you go see a play.

It's the same kind of like the way they present the dialogue, the way they say it, it's almost seems like you're on a stage play.

And part of me was, you know, when I for you first time I saw I almost wondered if it was just like, well, the first time director, that's the performances you're just getting out of your actors.

And part of me also just kind of over time, is wondered if it was more of an intentional choice for it to almost seem like this weirdly wholesome in a sense, like dialogue like you'd almost see at a stage play, and then to have the third act where you get the ultra violence and things like that.

Like that is it's almost like that slow walk to death, which I think is kind of the point of the film in a lot of ways.

It's just literally people walking to their death.

And I don't know.

I think those are the kind of things for me that ultimately work best, and I think is when the film is really is at its height, is when it's making that back and forth.

Yeah.

I do like Kurt Russell and Richard Jenkins together and and I think some of the humor with him worked, like their interactions and their chemistry.

I do like and I kind of want to talk like Matthew Fox.

I actually like a lot more than I thought I would like.

He's not somebody I have like any history with.

I've never seen an episode of Lost.

The only movie I've seen that's Unfortunately.

Yeah, I've heard a great I just have never gotten around to it.

But I've only seen I think he's in this movie that is like a Walmart like three dollars, Blu ray Ben Classic vantage Point.

I think that's the only thing I've ever seen him in and it was.

Loud The President Assassination movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

Yeah, yeah, Ryan, what are some other things, like what are the kind of the standout characters for you.

I mean, first off, I'm so glad that Zach called out the whole do you know how to read a book in the bathtub scene because that was so funny to me.

And then right around then Matthew Fox saying he's the smartest person there.

And then Richard Jenkins his response is why do you say that?

He says, well, you're widowed, he's married.

He's married.

Smart people don't get married.

It was like just the most obtuse kind of like Zack said, like very stage play, sort of like space given to that.

I don't know, it's not necessarily misogynistic, but very backwards old school way of thinking that just most of us would never say something like that nowadays.

And it's just dumb in a way and obviously proves the point that he's not potentially the smartest person there.

But the characterizations of that, I feel like, really do help with this film.

And the only thing, like I think David had said it earlier, one of the problems here is because you are separating these kind of offbeat communications with just gory, squelching sounds and the craziest like random ass violence, you have no real choice but to think, yeah, this is a bit tonally off.

I mean, if we're going from slicing throats to making jokes about well, it doesn't feel good, but we could do it the right way and then it might feel good or whatever he says in the bed like, there's so many, so many things kind of separating the crazy parts in this that are wholesome, like Zach had said, but also just sort of out of their time because they don't feel as they would in this time period.

So it's it is sort of, I don't know, a little bit like whiplash in a way, very tonal whiplash, going back and forth from those things, And.

I wonder if that's like a purposeful anachronism, like in a sense like I think back on one of my favorite movies is A Night's Tale, which Fame uses like modern music to get the idea of across of what this super needle for them.

So it's almost it's not to that degree, obviously, but I almost wonder is it more important to be accurate?

Is it more important to get the point across?

And obviously I think in a lot of cases your your goal, and a lot of cases do both, but I understand the inclination to just say to get the point across and to get them to understand it better is maybe more on the priority.

It does feel like a style choice in a lot of the film to me, and I think that when it's I don't know if it was a period where I might have said the movie is slow, I actually really appreciate that.

But then when it's getting to like the really important plot points, it starts to feel maybe slightly out of place at that point.

Yeah, no, David, what are some other kind of positive things that you had to say about it?

Oh?

Yeah, I really do love the relationship between Kurt Russell's character and Richard Jenkins too.

I appreciate like the sensitivity there that Kurt you know, that Kurt Russell's character has, and how he plays it.

It actually, uh reminds me of in the nineteen thirty six three Godfathers, the relationship between this character Doc and then this other character played by Walter Brennan who's very stupid, and the Doc character is like, you know, like quoting, like he's reading like Scopeenhower and stuff.

So but he's never he never like derides this dumb mass character or makes fun of them.

He's always, you know, very.

Loving and sensitive to him.

So I do appreciate that that stuff.

And I do think that Matthew Fox is pretty good in the film.

Sometimes he gives his line reads or sometimes a little too like he does that same kind of voice throughout.

But I but I do think that he's actually really good in the movie.

And you know, I enjoy the characters.

Patrick Wilson's cowboy character, he doesn't do bad, but I don't, you know, he's not like my favorite and I and there are a lot of scenes of him like limping around and stuff that I've yeah, going along a little long for me personally, But but but I you know, so I I do appreciate that.

One thing I will say in the movie's credit in terms of like authenticity, is that it was executive produced by this guy Peter Chako, and he's he's he's in Tombstone.

He's one of them.

He's like, he's one of the guys that go isn't part of Wyodorth's posse, but he's also this guy who has this group called the Buckaroos, and these they're they're historical reenactors who will you know, provide like extras and they have their own period authentic clothing and stuff.

So he worked on this film, and so you know, the costumes are pretty good.

He's got a wide variety of like accurate guns in the saddles.

All that nerd stuff, uh is is there.

So I appreciate that too.

I I also don't want people to think that my complaints about this movie are because of its historical inaccuracies.

Like I obviously no Westerns accurate.

I obviously love a ton of Westerns that have no no historical accuracy in any capacity.

I just think that that I think he I think his.

Writing would it would be better, you know, if he you know what I mean, Like I think because I don't think he's without talent.

I do think some of his dialogue is good, and I do like and I do think that he writes pretty good characters, and he's very effective with with the flatway he films violence.

And so there's that's that.

I guess.

That's the thing for me, is like there's so much.

There that I do love about that is about his work, and so I'm like I want to like it more.

You know, but yeah, those those same issues that I've already gone over a million times on the episodes.

So but that's the other kind of back.

But everyone, most of the people are pretty good in it.

Lily Simmons isn't the best with the with the dialogues he's given, but it's it's not the best character you know really anyway.

So but I think if he remade it now, it would be Jennifer Carpenter in that role, like that seems to be his go to female muse nowadays.

I think she was gonna originally be cast in it.

It was originally gonna be Peter uh stars Guard was that he gonna be the cowboy, and then and then Timothy Oliphant was going to be the breeder character.

Which is funny because Zallard is not a fan of Deadwood either.

He he doesn't like westerns where they just are in a town the whole time.

Okay, so immediately got out.

Yeah, so.

I know all those opinions on westerns, you know, like I I want to like like I want to like the guys said I'm interested in So I have like read a lot of his his western related stuff, you know, but I'm not doing it because I just want to be a hater.

Yeah, but I do.

But like I do think and I think he does a great Like I know, the movie is very was very low budget and everything, and so like he you know, uh, I think he stretches the budget well and and you know, and it is you know, it is a blending of a Western and horror that does work you know, outside of you know, the you know issues that I've already mentioned.

Uh but uh, and I and I do like that because most horror westerns don't I don't think blend him very well.

And and you know, and I think it's also smart enough to be like overtly like supernatural.

I think that rarely ever works in the Western.

So so but yeah, I I I think there is a lot to admire here, you know.

Yeah, I think what a my favorite elements is is, uh is actually of some of the design stuff, like with the weapons made out of bones, like and seeing the one of the chocolodytes, like sticking the I guess what is the bone tomahawk?

I guess like into Kurt Russell's mouth.

I mean it's like it's it's pretty strong imagery.

So yeah, that that aspect of of of it definitely works.

And and there are like I mean, even outside of the guy getting like split in half, there are there's one other kind of violent scene that I think is is probably equally as memorable or at least is gives you me more of like a visceral reaction, and that's Patrick Wilson's character cutting the instrument out of the guy's throat.

Like I I I think that scene is is pretty awesome and also like, uh, just like one of the better like script ideas to use that to kind of lure the Chocolate Heights out.

Now, there are some script elements that I wanted to bring up that that I think are an issue now.

Now one when when Kurt Russell shoots David Arquette, they go and get you Patrick Wilson's wife.

And then later on in the movie you find out that rich Richard Jenkins did surgeries like amputations and stuff like in I guess, I guess during the war, and and and it does kind of make you think did nobody provide the feedback like, hey, why did they go get the wife?

Why didn't Richard Jenkins just take this bullet out?

And and and then the movie is of course over like within within ten minutes.

But I don't know, what do you what do you do?

Did?

Did?

Did that strike you as being kind of an issues act?

I wouldn't say so, because originally they go to get the doctor, and the doctor's drunk, so they go to her, And I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and talk about like what war medicine looked like during like the Civil War era, because I don't know, but like my my initial reaction is they could probably hack off a limb pretty good, Like that's that might be like the best thing you're head.

I don't know how well he'd do it, extracting a bullet or anything like that, so it doesn't necessarily bother me.

I can see the idea of like, yeah, you could probably do that, But I also think the idea that I think they underestimate Chiggery quite a bit, Like they kind of just see him as simple, and they're like, if we got to remove a bullet, maybe go for somebody who's you know, who's definitely done that part before.

So yeah, that's a good point because when because when he does like set the the bone, it's kind of like they're into sort of a desperate situation at this point, and like, well, you know, what else can they do with him?

So yeah, I think I think that is is a good it.

Even their first thing is to take the leg, not to set it, yes, just to yeah, that's their first idea, just take it.

And he and it's Patrick Wilson who refuses that, right.

Yeah.

And then the one thing that I wish, I actually think would have made this movie maybe a little more interesting is if the Professor's character had gone with them, because I think that adding that dynamic would have been interesting.

Is especially having kind of the the racist Matthew Fox character.

You're traveling with this person kind of out of necessity because he's, you know, an expert and he's a native or or you know, for whatever reason.

But David, I see, I see you nodding.

Do you think that that would have been something that could they should have explored?

Yeah, I've always thought that, you know, I've always kind of but you know, I don't know, I don't I don't know.

Maybe Zalor thought that would be too obvious or I don't know, but I obviously I think that would I thought that I think that would have been interesting.

And uh, and Uh.

And I do think that like that is a that's an that's a fascinating that is as there's a possibly fascinating character there.

Yeah, and uh and so you know, for someone who loves the movie, that might is just like it's just a small character, but you have a whole history suggested.

And and that's fine for me.

He felt, like I said, he felt like a signpost more than anything.

But uh, but yes, I do think that would be uh a very like a cool aspect to it, you know, crim some of the dialogue cram another guy in there a little less of the of the of the leg dragging stuff.

So all right, well, I actually don't have a whole lot more that I wanted to bring up.

Ryan, did you kind of have any uh you want to go to give any final thoughts or anything.

I mean, I know that many people had seen this, of course, but one thing I do want to point out, and this is just kind of a silly, silly thing to bring up, but considering what one seen, this movie is known for sort of I feel like this has sort of been thrown into the category of this was another terrifier movie because it was somebody getting bisected upside down and that's the only thing that people remember about this movie.

I feel like this movie is a lot better than its reputation has been, and I think that it has gotten lost in this is just a gorehound movie, when a lot of this movie is just random small moments in between some major set pieces that might have some gore.

But yeah, I think the I don't know the fact that Terrifier and this came out within just a couple of years of each other and featured a scene specifically highlighting somebody hanging upside down and being torn in half is a really weird moment in horror history and they I don't know.

Oddly horror gets blended together when stuff like that happens, you know.

And what's weird to me is the guy, the director, who is a special effects artist, did a worse job a few years later.

Like that's that's the surprising part to me.

In uh in Terrifier, Yeah, I think the Terrifier one's not great, which I don't like the effects and Terrifier, but that's another podcast.

Oh gosh, yeah, I've never I've never seen Terrifier.

I I didn't even know that somebody got bisexed in it.

I do think that Zalar is very for the most part, very good with violence, with with Gore, with with I mean, he's willing to show you everything, but he's also really effective in what he doesn't.

You know, when he doesn't show you or what is just a very quick thing.

I think when they first get attacked by the Chocolateites, when when Kurt Russell and all them his group does I think some of the geography gets weird, like I don't know where the guy who cut off Breeder's hand and then he's like, I don't know where he's at because then he gets shot, he seems further away.

It's like some of that's a little confusing, But but I do think like overall his handling of violence is very.

Very effective.

You know, sometimes simply like the in the Brawl Brawl and Cell Block ninety nine, he like drags the guy's face and then he's like flipped him over and it's like a skeleton thing, like it just looks like a skeleton mask or something.

And uh, but he's I think for the most part, he's he's he's really effective in that and uh and you know that that, you know, because he is like I know he said that he that he that he considers this movie a wettern first and foremost, but he is, like, you know, a horror guy, and so I I appreciate even in some of this stuff that isn't horror, like uh, that it goes places that feel like horror movies.

They kind of has that that that uh, visceral quality that you don't often get like in a lot of Westerns, are like a lot of crime films or whatever genre he's doing.

So so yeah, it's uh, I mean, it's a very interesting movie, and it's one obviously I can talk about a lot because it's there's so much there, and I think his work in general is so very interesting and so like I am, I talk about it a lot because I'm trying to figure I'm trying to figure out the things that make it really not click.

So but I do.

But I get why people like it, like I, you know, I do understand it, you know, And and I don't think that they're nuts or anything.

It just doesn't it doesn't quite click.

With me, by the way.

I fully agree, David.

I feel like that as they're approaching the Trogoldite area at the end of this one, I feel like there's some teleporting that literally had to have happened.

And every single time I've watched this has bothered me just a little bit.

Yeah, and I think that's probably part of the fact that it was shot so quickly.

Yeah, and you know, with such a low budget and everything, and and so like, I do still think it's like overall impressive, you know, considering all the limitations and everything.

So yeah, I do think that that is impressive because I think they shot it in twenty one days and the budget was like one point eight million.

And I do think that's one of the reasons he is kind of committed to wide shots.

You know, there's not a lot of coverage, and so in that scene you're talking about, that is a scene where he is getting there's more angles and there's kind of more close ups, and so I do think that that could be a reason why the geography becomes kind of distorted there a little bit.

But but yeah, but Zach, did you have any kind of final thoughts you wanted to share?

Uh?

No, I think I think I'm covered.

I'm good, all right, well excellent, Well, I unless anybody else has anything else to say, I think that we're pretty close to wrapping this up.

I've said a lot, so I'm good.

Yeah, all right, cool.

Well, guys, this was a lot of fun.

Thank you so much for doing this.

I will have all the links where you guys can be found on social media in this show notes, so definitely go give them a follow.

Thank you and thanks so much.

Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed this episode.

I really enjoyed getting Ryan, Zach and David together to talk about this movie, which I hope I wasn't too hard on.

It's not something I would revisit, but it has elements that I think are really good and on paper, this is something that I should love.

But what did you think of this week's episode and what did you think of Bone Tomahawk?

All the links where you can reach me are in the show notes, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Next week, we have a new guest and we're talking about Peter Fonda's directorial debut, The Hired Hand.

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Thanks for listening.

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