You are now listening to the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, a classic Western film and TV podcast.

My name is Hunter.

In this week's episode, we're talking about two movies starring Charles Bronson.

They are Red Son and The White Buffalo.

These aren't traditional classic westerns, but this week's guest isn't a fan of traditional films.

Joining me in this discussion is Chris Haskell from They Live by Film, The Punk Vacation Podcast, and The Mondo Macabre Podcast.

Chris, thanks for coming on the show.

How's it going, man?

I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity.

I'm great, Honda, how are you?

I'm doing well, and I promise you're not meeting a celebrity.

It's the Western guy.

Oh.

I appreciate that and I'm happy to have you on.

We've got too I think pretty fun movies to talk about that.

I'm looking forward to getting into super fun.

But first, let's get to know you a little bit now.

Zach Bryant, your They Live by Film co host, has been on the podcast several times and so people have definitely heard about They Live by Film.

So can you tell us about yourself and your other podcasts.

Sure, I'm currently single.

If anybody's looking, I'm I live in Austin, Texas.

I no, I mean, you know, I've been a movie lover since well as long as I can remember.

I have always been around TV and movie in some capacity.

I was more than eighty two.

So the old style was to just sit in a room and watch whatever came on, you know.

My Interestingly enough, my grandpa was he thought he was John Wayne.

He died it probably three hundred and twenty pounds, so you know, but in his mind he was John Wayne, and and he loved westerns.

And so I grew up with what's what I call like very boring studio westerns.

Like it wasn't the art house classics, it wasn't anything like we're going to talk about today.

It was the like deep cut, you know, Eli Wallach, like some movie that he was paid for and showed up for thirty minutes and you know, shot a couple of scenes and like whatever.

So I didn't have a good taste for westerns growing up because I never really saw the good ones, gotcha, And so I just didn't watch them.

Now I love I learned to love spaghetti westerns, kind of obsessed with them, and we you know, really love asked what acid westerns like we were talking about, And I think through this journey of getting to see more of Charles bronson movies, I'm seeing that there's a lot of creativity in westerns and I'm probably not giving credit for.

Plus some great guests that you've had kind of opened my eyes to some of this a little bit.

So I'm in the most open place I've ever been to the genre.

And yeah, I'm excited to dig into these two tonight.

Oh that's awesome.

Yeah.

Now, now all the links to your podcasts and social media are in the show notes, So so listeners definitely go check out Chris's other shows and give him a follow.

And if you're into, like I think, more esoteric or kind of offbeat films, I think you'll really appreciate Chris's taste and enjoy his podcasts.

Oh yeah those so, I mean, just in ten seconds, the Punk Vacation one was born from nobody was talking about vineger syndrome, and I was shocked by that.

I was like, what you know, And I don't know if your listeners would know there's a there's a publishing house that makes physical media, you know, Blu Ray and four K called Vineer Syndrome and they put out a lot of cult movies and a lot of exploitation movies and a lot of kind of forgotten studio classics.

And that podcast is it's unofficial.

That's been fun to do, have guests on, and people from the publishing have actually come on and you know, been on the show, which is great.

And then Ryan, I'm sure everybody listening to you knows if not go check out Ryan Varrel and what he does.

But disconnected, but you know, him and I were talking one day and we're like, why isn't there a Mondo Micabre podcast?

So we're like, well, let's ask Jared if if we could do one, and Jared was like, hell, yeah, let's go.

So we've been running Amando Micabre podcast for about almost a year and it's been super fun.

Yeah.

I actually am a big fan of Monto Micabre.

I haven't been collecting I just in general, I haven't been collecting physical media as much over the last maybe year and a half or so.

I just haven't really just hasn't really been in the budget.

But for a while I was getting a lot of Monda Micabre hell Yeah releases, I especially like, I'm trying to think of a couple that I just really love.

There's an Italian kind of a I don't even know what genre it is.

It's not a Jallo, but it's it's a movie called Hotel Fear.

Yeah.

Wow, it's a deep cut.

Yeah.

I love Hotel Fear.

I think that movie's awesome.

And I'm not a just Franco fan.

But the Other Side of the Mirror, I think it's called I think that is easy my favorite Franco movie.

But I think that movie's awesome.

Yeah.

And Mona Micabre was just is just such an interesting label.

Even though I haven't been able to pick up much for a while.

I mean, I definitely haven't had any of the releases from this year.

The Other Side of the Mirror might be the most recent release I have actually could now that I think about it.

But yeah, and Vinegar Syndrome.

Vinegar Syndrome is not as up my alley.

Like.

They release some stuff that I do really love, like Texas Chainsaw Masacrer two.

Sure, and they did release a Western actually within the last year or so, Five Card stud which I still haven't picked up, but I will definitely pick that up.

And one that was called Charlie One and I have you ever seen that?

No, I've never seen that.

Oh man, that movie is awesome.

Is that Is that a partner label?

Yeah?

No, it's Vinegar Syndrome Labs.

I think it's one of their sub labels.

Oh gotcha.

But man, that movie, like it actually has some similarities to one of the movies we're going to talk about today, but not really.

It plays more like Alex Cox movie.

Okay, you can imagine like sort of like a buddy Western with two people that would never ever ever come in contact with each other, let alone partner up to survive.

But it's awesome.

Huh yeah, I'll have to check that out.

Yeah.

And and there's other V I mean I other VS releases I love.

I like The Beast Master.

I'm a big fan of that movie.

And there's a kind of a I guess kind of a more of a grindhouse like exploitation movie I like called Candy Snatchers.

Oh hell yeah, I'm a pretty I really like that movie.

So they're there's some movies that they've released that I really enjoy.

But for the most part.

VS is kind of kind of hard for me to get to get into.

That's okay, Well, just well, you know, we'll meet enough.

I'll convince you to be a co host with me one day.

You'll love it so much.

That would be something.

If you turned me into a diehard VS fan, that would be pretty pretty powerful.

Yeah.

No, you know, I think to tie it into the themes that we're gonna I think is going to come up tonight.

What I love about Vinegar Syndrome and what I was very pleasantly surprised with the stuff tonight was I really love it when directors take a big creative swing, right.

And you know, I think there are there are a lot of movies that fail in the box office because people watch it and they're just like what am I watching?

Right, But with time and without expectations, now all of a sudden, it becomes where you can watch it more for what it is as opposed to what you think it should have been or any of that baggage.

And some of these are just fantastic.

They just you know, have to be rediscovered later.

Right.

So that's the kind of stuffhere.

Veneer Syndrome focuses on and I always really like that stuff.

Oh I did think of one other VS release, Burning Paradise.

Burning Paradise is awesome.

Yeah, you found some good ones.

Yeah, but but we are not talking about VS releases tonight, although we probably could.

We probably could, but so so one thing.

So, I've listened to you on They Live By Film and Mona Macabre and Punk Vacation as well, and I was kind of surprised to hear the recent They Lived By film where you mentioned that you were a fan of Charles Bronson, because I feel like his work doesn't really fit in with your taste, like as I know it anyways, Sure, so I was so, I was wondering, how did you become a fan of Bronson and like and what makes him like a compelling screen presence to you?

Sure?

Well, well I saw him so the very first movie I ever saw him and was the Once Upon a Time in the West, And then obviously I knew the name growing up.

I just didn't watch Death Wish, you know when I was growing up.

Then good probably for the best.

Yeah, I saw The Great Escape, right.

I started to see him pop up in these older Hollywood movies and I was like, this is weird.

Because I always thought he was this rugged, you know, sort of like like just raw machismo type dude.

And not that he's not in those movies, but like I had just a different image of him.

And then I started to dig into this a little bit more and I saw that he really became like Charles Bronson in the seventies and eighties, you know, and up until that point, he was an actor and he was working, but he wasn't like what people think about as Charles Bronson.

So then I got interested in him, and then learning his story was super interesting.

Like he's one of I forget the exact number we just talked about.

It was like eleven or twelve kids, or maybe even fourteen.

He was a huge family and they were coal miners.

His dad died early, so he was left to like work the mines and then he went to the army and then became an actor.

Just a very interesting guy and a very interesting life.

And he's sort of a relic as a person too, you know, they don't really make him like that anymore, for better or for worse.

And yeah, like to me, he's like when I was growing up, there was sort of like this peak male figure that didn't have the baggage that like being an alpha male has today.

Like if you say that today, that has a lot of weird baggage to it, right, and it's almost like a political thing or something.

I don't know, it's weird, Like that's not really how I don't know exactly how old you are, but that's not the way that alpha males were spoken about growing up.

It was like it was different.

It wasn't you didn't have to be an asshole.

It was just more about kind of posture and you just like didn't let stuff bug you, You figured stuff out.

You kind of you know, you just got through life.

You didn't say more than you had to.

Very very similar to Buddhism in a lot of ways really anyways.

So that was what, you know, drew me to this enigmatic figure of Charles Bronson.

And then as we're going to talk about today and as there's you know you just mentioned and that they live by film episode, if you go away from his the movies he's really well known for, and start to go into the time when he was getting a lot of work in Europe or maybe some of these westerns.

He has a lot of different types of characters and he plays he's actually a pretty good actor, Like you wouldn't He does much more than just have that steely eyed like glance into the camera.

You know, He's got some range, and he's an interesting guy.

So I'm really enjoying seeing more and more of his stuff.

What about you.

Yeah, well, you know, I think he's He's definitely, I think he's pretty unique.

I mean, he doesn't look like a leading man at all.

You know, I will say I always forget like how ripped he is, Like, I mean, he's not compared to actors today who like may Or may not be all natural.

I mean, some of these guys are definitely on something.

But Bronson, you know, he looks more like someone whose strength comes from like intense manual labor and like working in a mind and being in the military.

I think makes a lot of sense.

Absolutely, But but yeah, you know, he's definitely like an interesting movie star.

I know, I watched a handful of his movies with one of my grandfathers when I was younger, and I know, like I've seen break Heart Pass countless times nice and I know, I know I saw like some of his big movies like Once upon a Time, in the West, The Great Escape, Magnificent Seven, like a lot of the movies where he has more of a supporting role, but of his starring roles growing up outside of Breakheart Past, I know, mister Majestic was one that I saw when I was younger, and I would say, like, I'm definitely a fan, Like he's not like in if I had made a list of all time favorite actors, I don't think he would be on it.

But I do enjoy his work.

I need to see some more of his kind of offbeat stuff because I've never seen because, like you talked about, I think three of the movies on that they live by film episode, and I don't think I had seen Uh, I don't think I had seen any of them.

One of them was from Uh was another Terrence Young movie who did red Son?

Right?

Wasn't it Cold Sweat?

That's right?

Yeah?

Cold Sweat?

And then uh, where's it called the Mechanic?

And then Someone behind the Door were the three that we covered, But yeah, that's right, there was another Terrence Young film.

Yeah, so, and then Someone behind the Door wasn't was that one that was directed by a French filmmaker or something?

Uh?

Yeah, I was just trying to remember the name here.

Let me just click into it.

Nicholas Gasner, British guy, I.

Think, but another British guy.

No, no, it's okay, but these are all French British co productions.

So gotcha.

They're actually shot in French and this one actually has a French title.

Okay, gotcha?

So yeah, I should.

I should track down some of his kind of lesser scene movies because I'm sure there's some there's some interesting stuff there.

I need your I need your help.

Adam and Zach we're not a fan of the Mechanic and that broke my heart.

So at a minimum, you have to watch the Mechanics so you can tell them how wrong they are.

Oh, you know, I have seen the Mechanic.

Let me I think you know, I'm not.

Actually I don't always do this, but I'm going to look up look it up on letterbox and see what star rating I gave it, because this will just be yeah, really riveting.

You know.

While you're looking it up, I'm gonna just give a little background conversation here.

He was on one hundred and sixty two movies, which is kind of surprising, Like this dude was a working actor, and I don't know that that's necessarily the reputation he has, because you know, later on in his career he was the highest paid leading man and he was the first person to get a million dollars per film, so you know, he retired actually quite wealthy and really became this enigmatic figure in this kind of you know, if you'd have asked people in the eighties, he would have been on the Mount Russian War of leading men probably.

So his journey in his career is just fascinating because he was exactly the same in real life as he was on screen.

So he was a very grumpy guy, and you know, he didn't really like artistic stuff, or he didn't really like people asking what was the meaning of this and that, and you know, he was just a funny guy.

Man, He's just a quirky dude.

But he really understood his characters, and I think they probably figured out like how to cast him as well, so you know, he got a lot of great parts.

Yeah, yeah, No, I did find my star rating for The Mechanic and I gave it a three point five, So I did like it more than Zach.

Take that, Zach, Yeah, take it all.

Right, well, all right, so yeah, but we should get into Red Sun.

The first movie we're talking about tonight, and we already mentioned its directed by Terrence Young, and he's definitely best known for the early Bond movies.

He did Doctor No from Russia with Love, which that's my personal favorite Connery Bond and he also directed another Charles Bronson movie called The Velachie Papers, which I've never seen.

And he's got a pretty interesting filmography.

But he originally wanted Clint Eastwood in the role that went to Bronson, and I think Bronson is actually a much better fit for this role than Eastwood would have been.

And it has a few screenwriters.

I'm not gonna mention all of them, but the writer I do want to bring up is William Roberts because he co wrote The Magnificent Seven and he wrote one of my favorite Charles Bronson movies, Ten to Midnight, which is an awesome movie.

I adore Ten to Midnight.

I'll make that the next one I watch.

Oh, it's so good, I think you'll love it.

Actually, Okay, And then and Red Sun was shot by Henri Alkin maybe or Alakin, I'm not really sure, but he's shot some pretty great movies.

He shot Roman Holiday, Wings of Desire, the Vim Vendors movie, and he shot the Jean Coctau Beauty and the Beast, so some pretty heavy hitters.

And then the only other crew member i'll mention is Maurice jar I believe it is.

I'm not positive, but he's a pretty major composer.

He worked with David Lean a few times, and he did the score for Eyes Without a Face, the kind of classic French horror movie, and he worked with Peter Weir as well.

So there's definitely some Oh, go ahead.

No, this guy is awesome.

He did the he was a composer for Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Chibago.

Yeah, Maurice jar or Jari, that's crazy, what a man?

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, And so there's definitely some really strong talent like behind the camera.

And we'll talk about the cast kind of when we get into our general thoughts on the movie.

Sure, all right, Well, I'm gonna go ahead and read the plot synopsis from IMDb.

So, in eighteen seventy, a gang robs a train and steals a ceremonial Japanese sword meant as a gift for the US President.

Prompting a manhunt to retrieve it.

All right, So, Chris, what did you think of Red Sun?

Okay, so I haven't given it a letterbox rating yet, but this movie is awesome.

So I really really like this.

I think it goes I'm a sucker for unconventional buddy movies and this is just like right in my sweet spot.

There's there's so many good ones throughout history that I could name.

I won't go on a huge tangent, but there's just I just love it when two people get together that shouldn't be together.

They don't like each other, they're on a mission, and at some point you see them start to like each other, but like neither one of them wants to admit it, and it's just like a I don't know, it's just like a very specific type of movie, but it's a it's a catnip for me.

So I was all over this movie.

Uh.

And you know, to Shira Maffune, who's the who plays kind of like the buddy for Charles Bronson is amazing in this and you know, I think he I have a crush on to Shira Maffune from the three or four years ago when I watched every Curroslava movie, Like.

This guy has incredible range, and it's interesting to see him playing a very like stereotypical Japanese role.

This like kind of like an American perspective of what a Japanese guy would be in the eighteen hundreds.

I'm sure there's some element of truth to it, but it's just interesting to see him coming over here and play that, almost like Bruce Lee coming over here and playing like only Kung Freu rules or something, you know, or like Jackie Chan or something.

But he's amazing in it, and Charles Bronson is amazing in it, and I'm sure we'll get into all the other rules and actors, but yeah, what about but what about you?

Yeah?

So this was the first time watch for me, and I had wanted to see it yet, mostly for the cast.

I mean, having Charles Bronson, Tashiro Maffune is that how you say it, huh mffune, and Alanda Lan like in a movie together.

Yeah, and it being a Western with a samurai like that's very intriguing and I really enjoyed it.

I think it's got some really fun action, and I think it's pretty well directed.

I could see people maybe some people finding it a little over long, but I think the cast is appealing enough that it helps keep the movie from feeling like it's overstaying.

It's welcome, and I really enjoyed spending the time spending time with Bronson and Mufune's characters.

And I thought Alana Lane like, even though he doesn't have as much screen time, I think that he's really fun as the villain.

Now the now, the ladies, they don't have the best roles in this Ursula Andres and cappuccini or cappuccine, cappuccine, capuccine.

Okay, yeah, I think that they're fine in their roles, but you know, they just aren't given the greatest characters.

But it's not the most complex movie, and I think its success comes from having charismatic stars, great locations, really nice like on location photography, and then just having a simple story that sets up some really well executed action scenes.

And now there is the idea of having like a Samurai and a Western, which are like two kind of subgenres that had been influencing each other like prior to this film.

I mean there's obvious examples like Leoni basically ripping off, you know, Kirosawa.

And then there's also movies like Kill, which is a samurai movie starring Tatsuya Nakadai okay and that's very much a samurai movie that is influenced by spaghetti westerns.

And then there are mashups of like Hong Kong martial arts movies and westerns like Shanghai Joe is.

One Yeah, true true, and there's.

An awesome Samo Hung directed movie called Millionaires Express that's definitely influenced by westerns.

And that's when I'd love to cover on the podcast at some point.

I would also Shanghai jo would be fun to do as well.

Man, if you if you can't find a guest for the Hong Kong Western episode, bring me on.

And I would love to come back and talk about that.

But there's there's experts that are, you know, bigger than me.

But that would be really fun to talk about that.

Oh yeah, it would definitely be fun.

Yeah.

And and maybe now this movie doesn't like having the same am Ryan in the western of this doesn't feel gimmicky to me at all, and maybe it's because it is, like it probably has a bigger budget than a movie that where it would feel like a gimmick would have.

I mean, there is like a fish out of water element to it, but but I do think it I think it blends the genres together like pretty seamlessly.

But yeah, what are your thoughts on kind of like the East meets West aspect of the movie and how and like the dynamic between maffoone and Bronson's characters.

Well, I was nervous going into it that it was going to be gimmicky, and in fact I was.

There's a little part of me that was kind of hoping it was gimmicky because I do have a soft spot for movies that are kind of outrageous and silly and have a nonsensical plot.

So I was kind of hoping for that.

But this movie surprised me, and really in a different way, which was that it was actually a really good movie and it wasn't you know, outrageous or silly, was just well made.

I think that the Okay, so this came out in nineteen seventy one, and I think that idea of having a Japanese person in a Hollywood film was probably really interesting at that time, right, I bet you and around that because we're not too far from Japanese and tournament camps.

I mean like there was a lot of people that were still like from those camps right, let alone their kids knew about it or you know, I mean, we're not far from that at all, right in seventy one.

So there's this there's this very tense relationship with Japan in the States.

But then obviously the nations become friends and I think, you know, trying to thaw that out a little bit.

It just seems like there was a lot of intrigue around it.

Even when I was growing up in the eighties.

You know, there was a lot of misunderstanding about what Japan was and wasn't that I think we're have more exposure to now, but just wasn't as right.

So this was a very much like what's the word.

It was like a like you could kind of explore this other culture a little bit, which probably drew people to it.

But then you know, you got to see some very cool fighting in this.

So you got to see the typical kind of Western fighting with the guns, but then you got to see what a badass Maffune was with the blade.

Yeah, you got to see how I think one of my favorite things about this movie.

In this discussion was how they made Miffune the smarter of the two.

Yes, I think that was a nice touch because you know, he was not portrayed as this like crazy Japanese guy, Like he was portrayed as the one who was actually protecting the ambassador.

He's further along in his career than this wild cowboy, right, He's polished, educated and a very skilled fighter, and so like it's a nice balance between the two.

Yeah, I think, especially given the era that it's coming out in it it would have been very easy for to have the Japanese character be more like the butt of the jokes, but then having him actually be the more competent one and kind of like the real hero and also seeing like his kind of samurai code change Bronson throughout the movie I think works really well.

I'm trying to think of actually have much else to say about this one, because like, outside of like talking about the action scenes, which are I think excellent, it's there's not a lot to the movie, Like it's very simple, but it's just very well done and exciting and and yeah, any anytime Mafune has the sword, like there there's one scene in particular I think it's at the end where they're in like the what is it, like the sugar like the cane fields or whatever, and and the comanches have kind of shot like you know, like flaming arrows basically into the fields to burn him down, and they clear out this huge section in the center of it where and that's where most of the fighting takes place.

And he's fighting I think comanches that have spears as weapons.

But all of that stuff is awesome and it's really exciting, and it's actually I wasn't expecting there to be.

I wouldn't say this is a very violent movie, but there is a little more blood than I was expecting going into it.

There was a little bit more violence than I was expecting here, and there's a little bit more language than I was expecting in the next movie.

But I think if we're if you're saying, if you're thinking about wrapping up, I mean the other thing, I just feel like we should at least, you know, talk about a little bit here is I think it was.

It was a very It was a role that I really enjoyed with Charles Bronson, because yeah, I think he was playing against type a little bit like he was he almost is like a young Robert Redford in The Sting or something like, like he's kinda he's he's savvy and you know, he's got a lot of skills, but he doesn't have a lot of wisdom yet.

And I think he I like his character in this a lot.

Yeah, I agree.

I loved his character and this is gonna be a It's funny that you mentioned Robert Redford actually, because there were times where Bronson in this I think mostly like the scar above the one eye that he had in this movie, he kind of reminded me a little bit of Brad Pitt and once upon a time in Hollywood.

And I don't like I never would have compared those two actors, but I was looking at his face and I was like, man, he reminds me actually a little bit of Brad Pitt in this and like Robert Redford, like Brad Pitt is basically his generation's Robert Redford, right, So I think that's why I was an interesting comparison.

But yeah, there was there was something about him where I was just like, man, I would and I was thinking I would love to see Brad Pitt like take on like this kind of like a genre movie that's kind of at this level.

Now, he's done some action movies like Bullet Train.

Like I've never seen Bullet Train.

I just don't care about seeing that movie.

But something that's like if he did like a fun western like this, like that would be awesome.

I actually think it'd be really cool to see Brad Pitt playing more mature roles now because he I'm assuming he's still very sexy, like in terms of you know, he would still have a good on screen presence, but yeah, he's he's right in that age group now.

Would be cool to see him play stuff like this you mentioned.

There's one more thing I was thinking about.

You mentioned lain delone earlier.

He's he is just he's just charismatic, like that dude every every single time he talks, even though I'm I don't know if he was dubbed.

I'm assuming he was dubbed because his English is pretty flawless.

But man, he that dude is so charismatic.

Yeah, he he really is, and he his range.

He is, uh because I I am, I'm a pretty big fan of his, Like I I I love his work with Jean Pierre Melville, and what he's doing is something like the Melville movies, like you look at something like Les Samurai, where like he he barely his face his like countenance never changes.

It's he's not expressive at all.

He's not uh charismatic in the way that he is in Red Sun.

But but he's like successful at at at doing both and he is just so he's also great in movies like Purple Noon, Roco and his Brothers I'm a big fan of.

And he was in a movie, like an Italian crime movie that I think Radiance put out a blu ray of recently called Tony ar Zentta.

Oh, I haven't seen that yet.

Is that good?

Oh, it's great.

It is an awesome movie that that's I mean, I guess that's a policeia teeshi.

I guess i'd throw that in that kind of subgenre.

Yeah, it's it's a really good one that's definitely worth worth checking out.

Oh yeah, but yeah, he's awesome in this, and he's good.

He's like charming but also like a like a legitimate villain.

It is as well.

Absolutely, no, it's fun.

I think that they're like, this is going to be something that if I was going to try to convince people that Westerns are cool if they have like a bias like me, This is absolutely a place like one of the first five i'd show people because like it's it's I feel like it has enough Western tropes that it satisfies like the diehard Western fans at least in my mind what they are.

You'd have to tell me about that.

But it also has enough just like weird, interesting kind of quirky stuff in it that it's like it doesn't feel mass produced at all, Like it feels like a very just unique kind of standout movie.

Yeah, I think it's unique.

I definitely think that there's like appeal for fans of traditional Westerns, But I agree that this would be a good one to show someone who maybe isn't interested in the genre, especially if they think the genre is only like nineteen forties John Wayne movies yea, and and you know stuff where they're just very kind of square.

I think this would be a good one because it's also it's got great action.

Because I think people if you're an action movie fan and you try a Western thinking that it's kind of an action movie genre, they're not always like this action pact.

I mean a lot of them are just dialogue and and and then there's like a duel or like one shootout in a saloon and that's all the action for the whole movie.

So yeah, I think this is actually a really great entry point for fans or for people who aren't yet fans of westerns.

I agree, all right, anything else on red Son, No.

I just love the journey that it got for us to choose this because we were thinking about doing a few different types of westerns.

Yeah, and then you're so nice to have listened to the episode and say, dude, why don't we just do Red Sun?

And I'm so glad you brought that up because I'm really really happy that I've seen this movie.

Now Yeah, me too.

Yeah, and like the acid Westerns we're gonna do at some point, all right, Like for sure, But when you talked about Bronson, I was like, oh, I think that this might be a good thing to do right now.

Oh yeah yeah, and red Son I don't have this, but I think it has a four K from Studio Canal.

Okay, so that is something that I will be looking to pick up for sure.

Exactly.

I'm miss saying.

I was gonna say same thing for sure.

All right, Well, moving on to our second feature.

So this is from nineteen seventy seven and is directed by jay Lee Thompson and Bronson and Thompson they worked together nine times, and he directed a movie I mentioned earlier, Ten to Midnight, which I'll say again is just an awesome movie.

And Thompson was a He was a journeyman director.

Basically, he worked in all kinds of genres.

You know.

He made horror movies, war movies, crime movies, comedies.

I mean, he really did it all.

And The Guns of the Navarone is probably his best known movie, or maybe Cape Fear, but both movies star Gregory Peckin were from the early sixties.

But he was equally successful at making studio movies as he was at making like lower budget movies, like he directed a slasher movie called Happy Birthday to Me in the early eighties that I think is pretty good fun.

And I always like seeing a director who can work successfully like in both like a big studio production and in kind of like lowbrow movies which tend to midnight.

Some might argue is a little low brow, but maybe a little more on the expensive side.

But it was written by Richard Sayle and he adapted his own novel and it was shot by Paul Lohman, and he shot two Robert Altman movies, Nashville and California Split.

And he also shot Coffee, which is kind of kind of odd to go from Robert Altman to Jack Hill, Right?

Is that who that is?

Yeah?

And it was produced by Dino de la Renis, and he had actually produced Death Wish and around this time he produced King Kong and Orca, so he was very much into kind of creature features at the time.

And Carlo Rambaldi worked on King Kong and was involved with the White Buffalo sequences in this movie.

And here's a typically brief plot synopsis of from IMDb, and then we'll get into our thoughts on the White Buffalo.

At the closing of eighteen seventy four, a haunted, dying wild bill Hiccock teams up with a grieving crazy horse to hunt a murderous albino buffalo.

All right, Chris, Well, I've actually really been looking forward to talking about this movie.

What did you think of The White Buffalo?

So it's worth mentioning that this movie came out and in the same year that Star Wars came out.

Yeah, and I don't know what was in the water that year, but like it just seems like there is some really interesting, weird movies coming out that year, Like I mean Star Wars now is Star Wars, but like there was nothing really like it before, Right, That's part of the reason that people kind of really latched onto it.

And now this movie which has these like really rich, like dense dream sequences that are very artistic with maybe some more typical kind of maybe you know Western like Journey, and I'm meeting interesting characters like on a journey and and and you know like it.

So it's got this It's like this combination.

It's almost like a fantasy Western.

Like I've never really seen anything quite like this before, and I can't imagine there's one hundred movies like this, Like Charles Bronson looks like a hippie.

Like the whole thing is just so weird, and like, I'm I mean, that's my Like, I love it, Right, That's exactly what I was hoping to find in any movie I watched.

So I mean, I'm all in for this.

What about you?

All right?

So I this is my second time seeing it.

I don't really remember what I thought of it when I first saw it.

It was a long time ago, but I sort of love this movie, Like I can see this not working for a lot of people, but I think the filmmaking is so strong, like the way this with the White Buffalo, like especially the nightmare scenes and even the scenes that take place in reality, the way they are shot and edited.

I mean, I'm sure it was a choice that helped that would help hide like how artificial this like mechanical what White Buffalo is, which you know they don't totally succeed in hiding and hiding it, but it is awesome.

Like the direction in general, I think is great.

The camera is almost always moving, and I was so impressed with the tone and the atmosphere they were able to achieve with a movie that would probably would have been voted like least likely to succeed, like if you look at the release calendar for seventy seven, because on paper, the movie is ridiculous, right, I mean, it's an insane movie.

It's taking like real like well known people from the Old West and like putting them in this Moby Dick like meets Jaws story, and I think it's absurd.

But I think the cast is incredible, and I actually think it's like great for completely different reasons than than Red Sun.

You've got like Jack Warden and Will Samson and the other main roles, and along with Bronson, they do almost become like Chief Brody Hooper and Quin from Jaws, like when they're working together to kill the buffalo.

Yeah, that's true.

And there are some other character actors that I think you expect to see in something like this, like John Carrodine, Slim Pickens, even Ed Louder is someone I think you expect to see in this.

But the actors in roles that like really stood out to me.

One was Clint Walker, who played I think his character is Jack Colleen.

He's the tall, like bearded, tough.

Guy Jack Kaleen.

Yeah.

And and I don't and maybe he has played other roles like this and I just haven't seen them, but I so siate him with being a very wholesome hero like in things like Cheyenne, which is a TV show he was the star of for I know, maybe five or six years.

So I loved seeing him in this.

I thought he was awesome.

And the scene in the saloon or like the gambling house, yeah, I think is one of the really like standout moments in the in the movie, like the standoff between his sidekick who's he's got a sidekick whose character's name is Kid Jelly.

Kid Jelly is awesome, Like that's a tremendous name, but that scene is definitely one of the highlights.

And then you have Stuart Whitman in one scene where he's also kind of cast in a role that kind of felt against type for me.

But the biggest surprise to me was Kim Novak And this is almost twenty years after Vertigo, and she's still I think she's like gorgeous in this, and she hadn't been working in many theatrically released movies around this time.

I think she just started working in more TV.

But I really enjoyed seeing her in this.

It's just such an interesting cast, and I enjoyed seeing some of these actors in ways I don't usually get to see them.

And I also I think one of the movie's greatest strengths is John Berry's score.

It is tremendous and it sets the tone for the movie perfectly, like during the credits, which I wanted the credits to just go on for forever, like the credits are are awesome because I think it is the credits are part of a dream sequence, right, yes, yeah, but yeah, it is just awesome.

I think the production design, like even the stuff that's clearly on sound stages I think is still really great, and some of it is like maybe miniatures, I don't know, but either way, there's just a lot of interesting visuals I love, like the of ice or whatever that is that the that the buffalo knocks down, although I don't recall actually seeing the buffalo go through it.

Maybe it does.

But there's also a really memorable kind of visual at a railroad station where there's just a huge mountain of buffalo bones.

No, that's that's the crazy, Like it's you're tapping into what I want people to hear.

Like this is fascinating because well, first of all, just as a quick scan out, like the cinematography by Paul Lowman is amazing.

So there's some shots awesome, like yeah, I remember that there's a one shot near the end a little bit where he's basically like running in snow and they zoom out like I mean they must be I don't know, two hundred feet in the air and you just kind of see this like beautiful mountain in this like landscape and this one guy running in the snow.

They're just so it's like this interesting combination of more traditional Western that's just like a like a beautifully shot, interesting Western with characters like what's that?

What's that?

One dude's named Jack Warden, who's always a great screen presence and he's fantastic here.

Yeah.

Right, And then they have Will Sampson playing Yeah, probably a character that should have not gone to a I mean way, is he a white guy?

Who Will Samson?

Yeah?

Oh no, no he's not.

Oh he's a Native American dude.

Okay, good, good, good.

Never mind that, I take it back, because there's there's a little bit of racism here in the movie.

There's there's some words that I'd never heard before, some some racist slurs that I had never heard before.

And we'll get into we'll touch on the on that aspect of the movie and in a in a couple of minutes.

Okay, cool, but that aside, like, you know, you have this more kind of traditional like interesting Western characters.

But then I don't know, like a quarter of the movie or twenty percent of the movie is like almost like something from the mind of uh, it's like a Frank Oz or something like.

It's just like it belong in like like a movie like Legend, you know, or a movie like well, I'm just trying to think of more of these eighties all these this like big slurry of like eighties movies that came out with a lot of interesting puppetry and practical effects and like these weird fantasy lands.

Willow is one, you know that type of thing.

So it's it's a it's a stark, stark difference in tone and color palette and the way it's shot, music, and it's it just goes back and forth in this really captivating way.

Like I was really because impossible to get bored.

I think watching this movie, like it's so there's so much going on and it's so interesting.

Yeah, I agree.

I I this is the kind of movie.

I mean it has a keynot laber release which I don't have, which it only has a commentary.

But I would love for this to get a deluxe release with some writing about it, yeah, because I think it's so interesting even just the visuals alone.

Because yeah, I think like like thinking about it like is because people I think have written or mentioned it as being kind of a horror western mashup, but I do really think it and there is that element to it, But I agree with you that it is it does play more as like a fantasy movie, like The The like the buff the Buffalo Bone Mountain, which there should be a Buffalo Bone Mountain.

I like that they should.

Somebody should name a mountain somewhere Buffalo Bone Mountain.

Sure, even that that feels like it's straight from a fantasy movie like that could be in Conan or so many other movies exactly, And and it's funny.

I feel like I could kind of like ramble about like outstanding visual moments, Like there's also the scene this might be the first time you meet Jack Warden's character, where he's riding his horse next to a mountain and there's kind of like there's all these rocks start falling off the mountain and they are likely fake.

There is sort of like a weightlessness to them when they're falling, but but it still looks amazing.

And and that scene like coincides with the Buffalo like running through this Native American village and the child of of Crazy Horse, which is you know, Will Samson's character I think it's a daughter, I can't remember exactly if they say, but is killed actually by the buffalo.

And it is like a nightmarish, tense scene.

And and like I said, on paper, this movie is is like a joke, especially since it's taking these real people, you know, wild built, hiccock and uh and crazy Horse and and and also like crazy so crazy Horse.

There there's one aspect of the movie where he goes to like an Indian chief who I guess is like a level above him.

I'm not really sure exactly how the hierarchy works, but whoever this is, who's like his leader, says that you know, he has to kill the buffalo and then do something with the buffalo, like cover his child in it, in the skin of the buffalo, right, and the skin of the buffalo.

Yeah, and he's like, until then, your name will be worm, right.

And that's like that scene could be in Mandy, like it could be in any kind of movie that is within the fantasy fantasy genre, which I would consider Mandy would to be a fantasy movie.

But yeah, there's just something that the tone, like the fact that I never like laughed at this movie because the tone is it's like a single tone throughout out and and sometimes movies that are one note that can be a criticism, but here it's played so well that I, like, I was just in it the whole way.

Like I found it to be completely absorbing.

Even if you don't take the movie as seriously as I do, I think it's just a curious at a minimum.

It's it's something that you would be like, Wow, I didn't expect them to kind of go for this and like swing for the fences with a movie with this concept.

No, I mean, I don't even know if a lot of like you have to tell me, but like I don't even know if a lot of the like purist would even call this a Western Like I mean, of course it is in a lot of ways, but like it's it's so different from anything I've ever seen in the genre, and it really strikes me as a metaphor the same way that something like Picnicked Hanging Rock is meant to be, you know, meant to portray something else or what's you know, there's just certain movies that feel like they're trying to say something and I was trying to figure it out, and I feel like, especially given you know, the history of Crazy Horse that it's probably about like conquering of the white man from the Native Americans and like, and this guy, you know, the Charles Bronson character would kind of be seen as like an ally as he gets to know the plight, you know, of this Native American guy better.

I don't know, but I don't know, or it could be crazy, but you know, I just it seems like there's something going on under the surface that's not just what we're watching, which also makes it interesting and fun to watch.

Yeah, I can definitely see that.

And I will say so one scene I think we should talk about is there is a scene where the three main characters are in the cave and they're having this conversation where Hiccock ends up telling Crazy Horse.

I can't recall like every detail, but he basically says, like, there's no way Native Americans can stand up to or like or defeat white people.

And Jack Warden's character is very much a racist and and and I think he tries to kill or like wants to kill Crazy Horse, and and and Hiccock stops him, and and Hiccock, you know, he like one wants to work with him, and they you know, kind of form a friendship, and I this is the one aspect of the movie that doesn't work well for me.

It feels a little bit forced, and I it also doesn't now I thinking the more I think about what you have to say about maybe what some of the subtext is with it being this white buffalo and it be kind and it also being about kind of white men dominating Native Americans, maybe it is more relevant to the story.

But I don't know.

This is the one aspect of the movie that didn't work.

I kind of didn't love that Jack Warden's character was racist.

Now, I wasn't sure if they were trying to make like a Hooper and Quint type of character dynamic, where like in Jaws you have the scene where Quin tells Hooper like you have city hands, You've been counting money all your life, and Hooper is like, I don't need this working class hero crap.

And that's kind of like their conflict.

And so I don't know if they wanted to have this trio and then have like a conflict between two of them, or if that's in the book, you know, I have I have no idea, But but what did you think about that that aspect of the movie.

See this is where I don't I kind of I guess it ties into something I was mentioning earlier.

You know, this movie was a little bit more like profane than I was expecting.

Like there was you know, there was a lot of like, okay, are you do you cuss on the show?

Or no, oh you go ahead.

I think, okay, I don't cuss.

I I was raised, I was raised not to use strong language.

Fair enough, no, but I'm just for the purpose of just you know, in the movie itself, like there's a lot of like god damn it, or like, you know, I think there's a lot of like a little bit language.

It would have been a little bit harsher than I would have expected in a movie like this, like in just you know, like a western that came out.

It's PG.

Like it's not even an R rated movie, and they use the hard R a hard N word, yeah to disc I have a native American and again a slur that I had not heard before, which you know, may be shame on me, but or maybe a good thing.

But yeah, like they I was surprised this was the PG movie for that way, because they didn't really hold anything back.

Uh.

And then as far as the one character being racist, I mean, if it's the only way it really works in terms of like being justified, as if he's trying to make a brighter point with the movie, right, And I do think he's trying to make a broader point with the movie with the way it ends, maybe you know, without spoiling anything, but like, I do think he's trying to make a broader point with this somehow, which would justify that character.

But otherwise, yeah, he's just an asshole.

Yeah no, but I but yeah, I do.

I do absolutely love the movie.

Outside of that, I just think some like sometimes introducing like a weightier, like thematic element can kind of bog a movie down for me, And it didn't feel organic to me at the time watching it.

But the more I think about it, maybe it will kind of work for me a little bit more, like, especially the more time I think about the movie, and and hopefully, like I would love, like I mentioned, if there was a deluxe release there was like writing about this movie, because I would love for there to be some kind of like academic writing on it, and like a video essay would be awesome because it is such a unique movie, and I think like the people I follow on letterbox who have logged it, the ratings are all over the place, Like some people it's like two stars, two and a half.

There's two people I follow who gave it five stars.

And I just I would just really really encourage people to to watch it because at a minimum, it's just visually so interesting, Like you did you mention Legend by any chance?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, because there are especially in that opening Dreams sequence with like John Barry is just a fantastic score underneath it, there are just shots where the camera's moving really slowly, just kind of painting really slowly, and it's like really close up on there's like a tree, there's trees or something like really close up to the camera, but the camera is what it's focused on.

Is h is past that I think it's it's probably like The White Buffalo.

And I was and I was like, this almost reminds me of Ridley Scott, like like Alien or something like that.

And and I think jay Lee Tompson, Yeah, I mean he's a journeyman, but I do think he is like a really talented filmmaker, Like you didn't have to approach this material with this level of artistry.

Ye, and and I think that it's just I don't know it.

To me the whole time, I was like, this is just exciting because it is I don't know, I even though I had seen it before, like the tone and and like the and just like the really memorable like visual moments and production design for whatever reason didn't stay with me.

And and maybe you know, I might have watched this on TBS, like and what's that called a pan and scan or something like.

I could have watched it in the worst, yeah, possible scenario.

And I think seeing it, you know, in NHD wide screen, and I was watching it on a TV, but I was listening to it in my I had headphones and I was listening to it like at a at a pretty good loud volume, and I was just completely immersed.

And yeah, I think this movie is just so much I mean, interesting is kind of a boring word, but it's just way more interesting than I think you would expect from what's basically like a Western creature feature.

No, it's so true.

I think it's hard.

I don't know if you feel this way, but the more movies I watched, the harder it is to be surprised.

And I'm always really drawn to movies that can still surprise me because it's like, man, like this is.

It's just I'm a little bit more like almost like cynical or something, you know, as I get as I just see more and more and more movies so like it this is.

I'm always drawn to that type of stuff, and this movie hits every chord like it's just it It's very surprising for what it is, and I think it's begging to be rediscovered.

And honestly, like if Vinegar Syndrome put it out, people might be like what, but then when they saw it, they'd be like, Okay, yeah, I get it.

I don't know that this would be like the tone for criteria.

It's a little I mean, maybe you could, you know, you could certainly justify it.

But like if Vinegar Syndrome or Severn is another one, or Aero Video or maybe even someone like Indicator in the UK or somebody needs to get a hold of this, like you said, and just make a really interesting version of it and give all the context because it just feels like there's hours of discussion that could be had based on this.

Yeah, yeah, I hope that happens.

I actually think VS would be perfect for this because and I feel like V, wellhy do actually, you know, not, I think about it.

I don't know if VS has really like re released, uh not re released, but I don't know if they've put out anything that Keno had that had like gone out of print on Keno before.

I'm sure you could go through there.

I mean, Keno is what they put out, what like forty movies a month?

Oh yeah, I'm sure that you can find something.

But yeah, I mean it's just more about the studio, right, who knows who has the rights to this?

But yeah, I mean I bet you they Let's see, does it talk about the studio not?

I want to say it's Warner Brothers.

I might be wrong.

Though, Okay, I don't know if they have something with Warner Brothers.

Maybe they do, but that's Disney now, right, isn't Warner Brothers Disney?

Now?

Oh you know, I don't know Fox is Disney?

I think I don't know if Warner Brothers is me see here, Oh yeah, it's United Artists.

Okay, so well, who knows then maybe?

Yeah?

Maybe?

Yeah they're still their own company Okay then yeah maybe so.

Yeah, now I'm trying to think what else.

I don't know.

Did you have anything else that you wanted to say about The White Buffalo?

No, I mean, I just I just think this is a movie that is you're not I mean, I guess after listening to this you'll have some idea what you're getting into.

But I would read as little as possible and just go in and experience it and like let it happen, because it's just there's gonna be so many moments in the beginning where you're like what, but it kind of makes sense in the end, like it kind of works.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, Like I yeah, I don't know.

It just worked on really like every level for me.

And I think that it's got an intriguing cast.

Like I talked about the way they use not like over the Hill actors, but use actors who have been working for a long time, who you who?

You know, they're kind of on screen persona and you get to see them do something different.

Yeah, and visually, I just think it's it's excellent.

Now, are there going to be people who find the white like the mechanical white Buffalo to be kind of laughable?

Maybe?

But I I don't know, it's still like I can accept something that is artificial, like clearly artificial, but at least is physically there much better than I can cg CGI like personally.

And I think that the way they shoot around it and the editing one I think is just really well done.

And and and there's a lot of kind of quick cutting that I think works really well.

And the cinematography in general is just awesome.

I mean, this is a great looking movie.

And if you like kind of snowy westerns, this is definitely one of those.

And it feels like one of those movies where I mean there's I feel like there's so little known about this movie.

Like I read Nathaniel Thompson's I wrote about it on Mondo Digital and I read what else Diday, I read something else.

Oh, and then I looked at like Wikipedia's page, and there's just not a lot of information on the making of this movie.

But it it feels like one of those movies that is would be very hard hard to make, you know, in like a difficult environment working with you know, a mechanical buffalo probably also has its challenges.

But yeah, I just think it is just it's really exciting.

I could even see somebody if if you're a fan of the thing, like you might like this movie too.

It's I mean, they're it's not exactly the same genre, but I could see somebody like appreciating both movies.

But I just think it's I don't know, it just exceeded like I should have had some expectations for it.

I just didn't remember the movie well, but it the it just exceeded my expectations on the rewatch because I I was kind of like after I watched Red Sun first and I was like, Okay, this is going to be my favorite of the two.

I just know it.

And then and then and then like as soon as the credits start for The White Buffalo, I was like, oh, I kind of wasn't expecting like this kind of uh these visuals and the tone like from the score is uh not what I was expecting either, And uh yeah, it's just I think it's just a genuinely like exciting movie that I really enjoyed.

And probably the best entry point for Moby Dick if you wanted to see if you like that story or.

Not, Yeah, yeah, i'd agree with you there.

All right, Well I think that is it.

Do you feel like, uh.

No, I'm good to wrap up.

There's plenty to talk about.

But I mean, I think this is a good you know, it's like as far as as far as this goes, I think it's a nice ending point.

Yeah, all right.

Cool.

Well, well, Chris, thank you so much for for coming on.

This was a lot of fun.

Oh, hunter Man, what a pleasure.

Yeah, I like, I love your show.

If anybody somehow is listening to this and doesn't know you're, you know, if they're discovering this somehow through this episode, please take this as a queue to go listen to the rest of Hunters shows because they're great.

You are helping me redefine my relationship with Westerns through what you're doing.

Uh, and I appreciate it.

I don't you know.

There's a lot that I'm have on my watch list now just from your episode.

So thank you for that.

Oh that's awesome.

Yeah, I love hearing that.

Thanks so much.

I hope enjoyed this episode.

I had a great time talking about these Charles Bronson movies with Chris, and he will be returning at some point to talk about acid Westerns, which should be another fun episode.

What did you think of this week's episode, and are you a fan of either red Son or The White Buffalo.

You can let me know by emailing me or messaging me on Twitter, Facebook, or All the links where you can reach me are in the show notes.

I'll be back in two weeks with a returning guest, Dan Budnick will be here and we're talking about a few episodes of Western TV shows that have a supernatural element to them.

We're covering an episode of Bonanza called Twilight Town, an episode of wagon Train called Little Girl Lost, and an episode of the Wild Wild West called The Night of the Man Eating House.

Until then, if you're looking for more film related podcasts, please check out other shows on the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

Thanks for listening.

Hello, This is Chris Askell from They Live by Film.

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