You are now listening to the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, a classic Western film and TV podcast.

My name is Hunter.

This week, screenwriter and editor for True West magazine Henry Park joins me to talk about Sam Peckinpaw and his episodes of The rifle Peck and Paw stint on The Rifleman was short lived, but he managed to write six episodes, four of which he directed, and it's always fun to talk about Peck and Paw, and his work in TV is way less discussed than his movies.

So hopefully this will motivate listeners to check out these episodes if you haven't already, and at the time of this recording, they're streaming for free and in pretty good quality on YouTube.

But let's get into it.

Here's our conversation on The Riflemen.

Oh Rifleman, starring Chuck Connors.

Henry, thanks so much for coming on the show.

How's it going, terrific?

Thank you, thanks for having me on.

I've been looking forward to this.

Yeah, I've been looking forward to this as well.

I'm excited to have you on and I think we've got a great topic for our discussion.

But before we get into that, can you tell us about yourself and your history with westerns.

Oh?

Sure, thing.

Well, I'm Henry Park.

I wrote the book The Greatest Westerns Ever Made and the People Who Made Them, which is actually I'm the film editor for True West Magazine, have been for ten years, and that book is made up of about eighty of my articles.

So I've been writing about Westerns for a long time.

I've been writing the blog Henry's Western Roundup since ten.

And the odd thing is that, you know, I've been a screenwriter.

I went to film school, I've made a couple of movies.

But while I really was always a big fan of westerns, I never thought of myself as a Western guy.

I was a comedy guy, in a film noir guy, mainly because I didn't think I had a good enough grip on Western history to write westerns.

Of course, once I realized how little history the people who write westerns no I got right into it.

But yeah, I started.

I really got involved back in twenty ten when I started my blog, Henry's Western Roundup, just to keep track of film festivals and things like that, and right away I started getting contacted by spaghetti Western actors and people with low budget westerns.

They wanted to get the word out on and it just grew from there.

Right, that's awesome.

Yeah, and I am including links to your blog, Facebook page, and your book in the episode episode description, So so listeners definitely definitely follow Henry and track down his book.

And yeah, now we've got a really big topic.

We are talking about The Rifleman, and this is a series I wanted to talk about really ever since I had the idea to start a classic Western film and TV podcast.

And we're going to get started with a little bit of pre production history kind of before we get into the individual episodes.

So Henry, can you talk about kind of the origin of the series and how Sam Peckinpah got involved.

Oh?

Absolutely, well, the series was started out as one episode of an anthology Western series, Dick Powell, the Great song and dance Man of Early West, Excuse Me of early musicals for Busby Berkeley had where youdefined himself as as a film noir tough guy and later redefined himself as a sort of Westerner and became a film and then TV producer in the early days of television in the mid fifties and he created this series, Dick Powell's zang Gray Theater, which was an anthology show, so every episode was a Western but about different characters.

Between nineteen fifty six and sixty one, he produced one hundred and thirty episodes.

Despite the title, only six of them were based on Zane Gray's stories.

But one thing that was the series was very famous for was for all the series that started out as single episodes Johnny Ringo, The Westerner, Black Saddle, Track Down, Wanted Dead or Alive in The Rebel all started out as essentially backdoor pilots from that show, and eventually The Rifleman Wood two.

The way Sam Peckinpah and all the way it came together.

There were three fellas, fledgling producers Jules Levy, Arthur Gardner and Arnold Lavin who had met when they were in the Army Air Force Motion Picture Unit during World War Two, and when they got out they were given a chance by Dick Powell to create a story for the Zangry Theater.

So they were looking for material and there is Sam peckinpo Peck and Pop had become a brilliant screenwriter as a means to direct.

That's always was his focus.

But he learned to be a screenwriter on Gun Smoke back when it was a half hour episodes.

And what he did was he adapted ten radio scripts because it started, of course as a radio show, and he adapted ten of them to television and really learned the process that way.

And then he wrote two original stories for Gun Smoke and they didn't want either one.

So one of them was called The Sharpshooter, and he offered it to Dick Powell at Zane Gray Theater and Dick Powell snapped it up and then handed it over to Levy and Gardner and Levin.

Well, the plot was simple and depressing.

A skilled marksman enters a shooting contest, but the town powers had thatt on someone else.

They let him know that if he wins, he'll die.

He throws the match.

The end heartwarming.

Yes, of course they hated it.

I mean, by the standards of the West, the guy's a coward, right, But then Arnold Lavin suggested, what if he has a boy and it's the boy who's being threatened and to his like lasting regret.

Let me quote what sam Peckinpash says about that quote, I said, that's a hell of an idea.

Therefore, he told me I do not deserve to get creator credit.

In other words, because Lemon came up with the idea of the sun.

He said, it's not your story anymore.

And which is kind of tragic when you think about it, because creator credit isn't just nice with the writers Guild contract the way it is.

If he had gotten created by credit, he would have been paid by the producers for every single episode of the series.

So that was that worked out badly for Sam.

Yeah, definitely.

And so he already had the Sharpshooter.

And and this was at this point, I think this was in nineteen fifty eight.

And then by the popularity of Western TV series at this time was unbelievable.

I think by like by nineteen fifty nine, there were forty eight Western TV shows on the air, which is which is just an incredible.

Amount, mind boggling to think that there were that many horses available.

Yeah, but the Riflemen, I do think offered something a little different from the formula that a lot of Western series had become at the time.

What are some of the things that you think set the Riflemen apart from other classic Western TV shows.

Well, one thing probably the core thing.

When you look at all of the other great Western shows at the time, I'm thinking Gun Smoke at gun Will, Travel, Wagon Train, they were all about men, individual men, not married, no families.

The Riflemen was about family and not rich families like say the Cartwrights or later on the Cannons from High Chaparral Y the Lancers, the McCain's father and son were barely scraping by.

It was the realism, especially when lucas powerful as he is, can't defeat all the bad guys and win the shooting contest in the in the pilot, I mean, yeah, he's strong and he's a great shot, but sometimes he has to lose.

He's human, and I think the degree of reality of a hero who is not you know, like wearing tights and flying as in most Westerns in a sense, I think it was it was Gun Smoke was I think the one that really established a degree of realism and maturity that they never had before in in Western television, and Rifleman took it that much further by making it a story not just about you know, individuals on the planes, by themselves, but a family, even tho it was just two units.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that the the show is like surprisingly mature, especially given the era, and that it has like a child at the center of it.

And I'm actually going through gun Smokes first season as a part of the podcast, and I've found that the Riflemen, I feel like the stakes are higher and the violence is more impactful than anything I've seen in Gun Smokes first season.

Now, obviously gun Smoke went on for a long long time, so I'm sure it has some things that will you know, potentially match the Riflemen, But here in the first season, like right away, I do think it's you see that this is a very mature show.

Even though it has you know, kind of it's it's it's still mostly pretty safe for the whole family though.

It is well now when you think of like the the pilot episode where Leif Ericson makes it clear that he's going to shoot Mark if the rifleman wins his contest, nothing is said.

He puts the gun next to the kid's head.

The kid doesn't see it.

We get it, but that's the sort of moment that might very well go buy a kid watching anyhow, Oh, absolutely so that that was what I thought.

It really struck a wonderful balance where it was appropriate for kids to see, but it was it was not at all childish, right, And you know one thing that I found interesting watching these the six Sam peckenpot episodes back to back.

People always talk about how violent the show was.

And an interview I read Chuck Connters he talked he was talking about how he killed an average of two and a half p per episode, and which is kind of an interesting statistic that it is.

Yeah, and he pointed out that Lucas would always tell Mark, you know that it's never good to kill a man, but sometimes you had no choice.

It was, you know, kill or die.

But unless I missed some in for the six episodes, he doesn't kill anyone, right, I think these were actually some of the less violent episodes that Sam peck and Paul Bloody Sam made.

Yeah, and who knows how accurate the two and a half people per episode is.

I think he may have just he may have patted the numbers there a little bit.

He might have.

It's true.

All right, Well we're going to get into the first episode, now, Henry, do you have a synopsis for this episode.

You kind of you basically said it when you broke down what Pekapa's original idea was, but it did change a little bit.

Sure, Well, here's hears my synopsis.

If you want Lucas McCain Chuck Conners, a man with a mysterious past, A widowed father comes to North Fork with his ten year old son Mark Johnny Crawford, and they decide to make an offer on a ranch that's for sale.

A shooting contest is about to be held, and if Lucas can win, he'll have a sizeable down payment on the ranch.

His main competition is a wet behind the ears professional shooter Vernon Callo and cocky but likable played with startling death by a very young Dennis Hopper.

Ether Man could win, but the money behind Hopper is Leif Ericson, who wins all competitions he's enters at all costs.

Erickson obliquely threatens to kill Mark if Vernon doesn't win.

All right, well done, well, since this is since we're talking about six episodes, I don't think we're going to go too deep into each one, but I think we should at least give our general thoughts and talk about kind of what stands out in each episode.

Henry, what did you think of this episode?

Well, I absolutely love it.

I think it was beautifully directed by Arnold Leavin, and it's full of interesting characters.

Dennis Hopper's sort of dandy gunman who you realize was robbed of his childhood so he gravitates towards little Mark.

It's I mean, it's so original.

R.

G.

Armstrong is a law man who has been corrupted by cowardice but feels he can do a little good.

Is I think novel and I think we've all known people who try to do good up to the point where it's like of any risk, right.

And I think one of the really interesting things is having Armstrong in it because this was the beginning of Sam's stock company.

I think when you think of a director having a stock company, people just assume, well, he worked with somebody liked him, so he brought him back.

You know, it can rely on them that it develops our organically.

But I think that this was really Pecking Pau's planned very early on.

L Q.

Jones told me about meeting Sam and in nineteen fifty five on the set of an Annapolis story Don Siegal was directing, and Peckinpa was a dialogue coach.

And I'll quote LQ who says, Sam said, listen, kid, we're going to be working together because I'm going to be a director, and I'll remember you.

True to worried.

And this was when he was a dialogue director.

He was nobody, but true to his word.

Once he got a little foothold, here comes came the calls and he and l Q ended up doing He thought it was about seventeen projects together.

What I would just say, what I really struck me because it's the first time you see Johnny Crawford, although for a twelve year old he had a heck of a resume already he had been doing tons, but he is such a good convincing act here.

I put him up there with like Roddy McDowell and Natalie Wood and all the young Mickey Rooney, all those great adolescent uh kid actors that you absolutely believe.

You know.

He got nominated for a Best Supporting Actor Oscar uh and lost it to Dennis Weaver as Chester in Gunsmoke.

Yeah, he was up against adults, but I just thought he was a revelation.

Oh yeah, he's he is tremendous, and I like you, I love this episode.

I think he's an outstand It's like an outstanding first episode, and I mean, how could you not want to see more like based on the quality of this one, Like, I think Chuck Connors and Johnny Crawford are perfectly cast as father and son, and I think the supporting cast is great.

And I agree with you on on Dennis Hopper, uh and and overall, I love seeing kind of a pre stoned out of his mind Dennis Hopper.

I mean, it's possibly he was high as a kite during this, but he definitely doesn't seem that way.

It's just a great small story.

I think the ending lands beautifully, like that moment where you see Mark after Lucas walks out of the saloon, like after the shootout, Like the emotion on Mark's face is so real.

And I know a lot of people are annoyed by child actors, but I'm with you on putting him up there with someone like Natalie Wood.

I think that Johnny Crawford is just very natural, Like I can't imagine anyone having a problem with his performance in the series.

And I think Lavin's direction is really top notch, Like there's some nice camera movements and stylistically, I think I would say this is superior to a lot of what I've seen from in TV.

From this, and even though Peck and Pa wasn't able to receive a creator credit because of this, I do think his adding the Sun character is really one of the things that makes this show so special.

And yeah, I don't want to go too much more into it.

I feel like this we could do a long, a long discussion on some of these episodes, but I do think that it is just a terrific half hour of TV and a wonderful introduction to these characters.

But did you have anything else to add on this episode before we move on to Home Ranch.

I don't think so.

I think that we pretty well covered, din't I always say it's a good idea to spend less than the half hour talking about a half hour show.

Yes, all right, Well, we are moving on to episode two, which is titled Home Ranch.

And Henry, do you also have a synopsis for this episode?

Yes, I do, and I want to point out what's unusual about this is it plays like a continuation of the pilot and I don't know if any other two episodes that where the plot continues one to another.

But Lucas and Mark have just filed to buy the ranch have barely started to get settled when two ranch hands worked for powerful rancher Oak Jackford tell them the deed that deed or no deed.

Jackford needs the Landford grazing, and when Lucas doesn't go along, one rokes and drags him around the property.

Then they burn his new house to the ground.

Well, Mark stays with the property that what property they have left.

Lucas tracks the ranch hands and eventually gets a drop on them on another cowboy, and eventually Jackford played by imposing Harold Stone.

Lucas has plenty of opportunity to kill them all, and he has a huge brawl with Jackfred, demanding that Jackford keep off his land and pay for the damage.

Jackford grudgingly agrees, and as Lucas joins Mark, they're joined by the two ranch hands with a load of lumber and they set to work rebuilding the house.

All right, So yeah, like you mentioned right away, it's so interesting that this episode picks up where the previous episode left off, because I think at this point there might have been some shows that had a story that played out over two episodes, and I know that there were some soap operas that were serialized, I think in the late fifties.

But the idea of a series that isn't like purely episodic is still kind of new for this time.

But what did you what did you think of this episode?

Well?

I liked it very much.

I thought it was very strong and interesting for a couple of sequences.

Well, when the house has been burnt and Mark says, looks to me like the lord's dead set against us having a place of our own.

Now, Pekenpah often had characters who were very religious, but very hypocritical, right, but Sam knew his Bible.

And there's a remarkable sequence where Lucas tells Mark the story of job all the time while he's doing business with harnesses and saddles.

And I timed it.

It's an unbroken three minute monologue in a half hour western.

I'm just unheard of inspiring telling the whole story of job, which really lifts Mark's spirits and really gives us insight into Lucas's history and character, and you also thoroughly believe him as a ranchers from seeing how well he handles all that stuff right, And then while Lucas is stalking and eventually fighting all the cowboys around the campfire, it's intercut with Mark making his campfire, figuring out how to unharness the team, feed himself try to sleep all the time imagining bobcats and rattlesnakes around him, but cowboying up and handling it.

I just think it's it's that whole parallel thing is so unusual and so well done, just elegant, I think, And it just it creates this great respect in you for this little kid who is winging it.

He doesn't, you know, he doesn't know how to do any of this stuff, but he's learning it.

And yeah, I just I find the little guy inspiring.

And his dad's good too.

Oh absolutely, yeah.

Yeah.

Now, I wouldn't put this on the same level as The Sharpshooter, but I still think it's a pretty strong episode.

And I think that the villains Y Steve Roland and Lee far I think that they're pretty effective, as is Harold Stone, who's really like the big Boss but doesn't doesn't really cause as much harm to Lucas as Roland and Fardo.

And right, and the the interesting thing I think about that is they're doing it to please him, and he's upset as as soon as he learns they burn the house.

Right, He's not as bad a guy as they think their boss is.

So it's yeah, sort of interesting levels there.

Yeah, definitely, Yeah, And and and Harold Stone.

I mean, he's in a lot of classic Western TV shows, and I think he's always good.

And then the Yeah, the opening where we see Lucas get dragged and their house burned down in front of his son, I think is another example of the of the show having steaks and also not being afraid to have villains who are truly awful people.

And I enjoy uh the moments where we see Lucas stalk the villains like in the dark, and then the fight between Oak, Jackford and Lucas I think is really solid too.

Oh yes, and I I kind of the scenes with Mark.

I wish they had relied a little more on audio and less on the visuals.

I think it could have been a little more effective that way, but it doesn't.

It doesn't really take away from the quality of the episode.

I still think overall it's just pretty solid entertainment.

But uh but yeah, that's pretty much all I have on on that one.

I think, you know, it's it's it's it's not as impactful as a few of the other episodes, but I still think it's it's really strong.

Yeah, I just started think of it as an extension of the pilot.

Yes, as that I probably like it better than if it was completely a standalone I I know what you mean.

It's it's not plot heavy at all, right, and uh, I'm sorry I missed the names of the two actors in the beginning that you mentioned.

Who are you know, trashing the place and and dragging Lucas and so on.

But it's it's very interesting how they are not playing it like your your standard sleazy bandit kind of guy at all or very course they're like, hey, you know, don't take this personally.

We're just doing this because this is what the boss wants and he'll probably pay you for your land and all that.

But you just have to get out, but you understand, right, and then drag him by the horse a little more.

But I mean, it's it's it's no there's no agster ish.

Yeah, there's no passion or like anger in it.

It is almost just like out out of duty.

Yeah, this is our job.

We drag people.

Yeah yeah, it's so unusual.

Yeah yeah, definitely.

All right.

Now we're moving on to a two episode, number four, called the Marshall and this episode is notable for a couple reasons.

It's the first episode of the series directed by Sam Peckinpaw and prior to directing this, he had only directed the series finale of Broken Arrow.

And I know that's a show based on the Jimmy Stewart movie of the same name, but I've never seen an episode of the series.

But this is the first of four episodes that The Rifleman of The Rifleman that Peck and Paw would direct, and it features a few actors who he would work with we once he started making features.

I mean, you know, obviously Warren Oates is in this and he's a key figure in Peck and PAW's filmography.

And you already mentioned R.

G.

Armstrong and then James Dreweries in this episode.

And then another behind the scenes collaborator with Peck and Paw is Jack Garris, and he has a story credit on this episode, and he co wrote an episode of Klondike with Peck and Paw, and he was also an associate producer on The Westerner.

All right, well, Henry, can you tell us what this episode's about?

Sure, three bad men drift into North Fork, and two of a bone to pick with town drunk Micah Torrens.

Once a law man, Lucas gives Micah some tough love, hiring him to do labor on his ranch and dry him out.

But with the two still gunning for Micah and the third planning to take over the town, Micah needs to dry out fast to help Lucas.

Yes, now, this this is an episode I'm really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on.

So what did you think of the Marshall?

Well?

I liked it a lot.

I'm so glad you pointed out that only four episodes in they trusted Sam who had directed one TV half hour, as you say, the last episode of a show that had been canceled, and they let him direct episode for they must that had great faith in it, which of course was very well founded.

Yes, yeah, but anyhow, it is quite a show.

It's as you say it, well, one thing, it's important for the series, not only because it introduces Paul Fix's character Michah Marshall Michaeh Torrence.

It's kind of a first draft a Peck and Pau's Ride the High Country.

Yeah, definitely, and it's loaded with those new members of the Stock Company.

It features Abby Dalton and what would become the Marriott Hartley role of the lonely girl impressed and seduced by a swab stranger, with James Drury as that stranger in both the TV show and the movie m HM and R.

G.

Armstrong, as you're saying is he's back as the weak lawman, and here he plays the girl's uncle and guardian, and in the movie he plays her father and Warren Oates, who, as you say, had a longer history than anyone else.

I think with pack and Pop he'd be an I think all of his Westerns except Deadly Companions.

He plays James Jury's no account saddlement in this episode and his no account brother in the movie Ride the High Country.

Yeah.

Going along with Ride the High Country parallels Lucas is essentially the Joe mccraig character, whoor and hard working, disappointed in Paul Fix's Micah, like the morally compromised Randolph Scott in the film and in the end the perceived corrupt, wicked man or weakened man.

I should say, Micah has to rise to the occasion, and even though Lucas is the hero, he has to be saved by Micah, just as I might point out in the pilot he had to be saved by Dennis Hopper.

Right, I'm not going to say it takes a village.

While most Western heroes have to save the day alone, Pecan Paw allows his heroes to have help and help from people that redeem themselves by doing it.

They're not just you know, heroes themselves.

They're slobs that have really triumphed over their weaknesses.

So I think it's a terrific show.

Oh yeah, this is another episode that I absolutely love.

I think Pecan Pau's direction is terrific.

I love kind of the unhinged quality to the Shelton brothers you played by Oates and Robert Wilkie.

Oh yeah, And I think that they're effective but also just really entertaining, like they seem to be having a blast.

You're destroying the saloon, which they get to destroy it twice, right, And I think that people who have only seen peckin Pau's move.

Yeah, we'll we'll definitely see these characters and be reminded of other characters like like you mentioned in Peck and Pau's work.

And I do want to quote David Wettle's book if they Move kill Him because I love the way he says this.

But he he describes the Shelton Brothers as the first of many such rabbid jackals, and and then he mentions the the Hammond and the Gorge brothers and several other characters before saying who would trot through Peck and Pau's landscape in search of fresh meat?

And I think that's just I couldn't say it better.

So I was like, I just I'll just quote him.

Oh yeah, no, that that absolutely encapsules Yeah.

And and I had seen James Drewry and other things before I originally watched this episode.

I mean Ride the High Country being an obvious example.

But this episode made me seek out more of James Drury's work, and I've become a big fan of his.

It's and it's really fun to see him as a villain.

I think he's so good in this episode, and I love the reveal that he's actually the one in charge.

He lets the brothers kind of run amuck and have a certain level of control.

But the moment where he reminds him them whose boss, I think is great.

And like you mentioned, this introduces Paul Fix's character, and I'm on board.

Anytime there's a Western character who starts off a drunk and then sobers up and puts on a badge, that just always works.

Yes, but yeah, this is a great episode and I think I would say this is essential for Peck and Paw enthusiasts.

If you're a fan of his movies, I think that you would love this episode.

Oh, I think so absolutely.

It's I mean, you really get an insight into so many of the relationships and attitudes that are important to him you'll be seeing throughout his career.

Yeah, now, I know you at some point interviewed James Drury and and talked I spoke with him about working with Peg and Paul.

Can you share some of the things that that he said.

Oh gosh, you know, I'm sorry, it's it's been a while.

Sin's okay, got over that.

What you know, what I what I think of what I think of James Drury at our interview was that you started out being very annoyed.

That he was.

He had to.

He had just completed a very long drive and h I forget where, you know, where he was going from place to place, but it was major cities.

It was, you know, like a thousand miles or something.

And I said, why didn't you fly?

And he says, because they won't let me bring my guns.

Wow, they said, okay, the Virgin Okay, that's yeah, that's well.

Well that's a good little little little uh tidbit there that that's wild.

But but yeah, but I think that's all I've really got on this episode.

Like I said, it is.

You remind me about what I what I said that he said about Peck and Paul, So if I can join in there, I'm sorry, I haven't looked over that in a while.

Oh, no problem.

No, I I remember seeing you post the interview on Facebook and at some at some point I feel like you maybe reposted it somewhat recently and I read it, and all I really remember him saying was that he knew that Peck and Paul was like a very special talent, like from from from from the get go.

But other specifics than that I can't recall.

But yeah, up next is, uh, well, do you have any other thoughts on the Marshal.

I think we covered it pretty well.

I think so.

I think we got it.

We got that one down.

All right.

So next up is episode twenty two.

We're still in the first season.

In this episode is called the Boarding House and it was written and directed by Peck and Paw and Chuck Conners is uncredited, but according to IMDb, the story was his idea, or at least he collaborated collaborated with Peck and Paw on it.

And then the guest star is Katie Herado, right, and she would work with Peck and Paw again on an episode of The Westerner.

And she's also in Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, right, And she was in other Western movies and TV shows, I mean most notably.

I mean she's in High Noon and she's in One Eyed Jack's as well.

But she's great, and I think she's got a pretty strong filmography.

But let's get into this this episode.

What is this what is this one about?

Well, when a disreputable gambler and his two female dealers are run out of ten, they head north to rather, they head to North Fork.

There, Julia Katie Herado.

Of course, Gary Cooper's girlfriend from High Noon is running a respectable boarding house, but she was once a crooked dealer card dealer for sid Fallon played by Alan Baxter, and he and his cohorts are determined to force Julia back into the game and turn her boarding house into a saloon.

Lucas recognizes her, and he's unsympathetic she swindled a friend of his out of his life savings.

Well, when he's convinced that she wants a simple, honest life, he helps her and as he says to Mark, quote, we've all done things we'd like to forget, and thank Heaven, most of us are able to unquote.

Yeah, Now, I like this episode quite a bit.

But what'd you think of it?

Well, it's you know, it's funny because I changed my mind on this.

Of the six episodes, this was my least favorite.

Oh okay, and it just it seems so contrived with the bad guys going around spoiling Julia's reputation of forcer into being a crooked poker play dealer.

What and then I suddenly understood.

I think that this script was heavily censored.

I think in the original story and I'm just going by implication.

I don't know this, but I think Julia wasn't a crooked at gambler.

She was the madam of a brothel.

That would make a lot of sense, because I mean, that's a life that women are forced into and can't leave when their reputation catches up with him.

I think sid Fallon was her pimp, and she wears the knife scar in her cheek that he gave her.

I mean, no casino owner marks his dealers with a knife.

Yeah, it's a pit prostitute thing.

But I think it was considered a little too sordid for the show, and so they cleaned it up.

You know, in a way, it's like with gun smoke.

They never say what Miss Kitty's business is.

M But if all those girls are waitresses, why are they always going upstairs during working hours?

Right?

You know, It's it's a little confusing, definitely.

You know, I watched it twice in a row, once thinking brothel, and then the whole thing made great sense to me, and I liked it so much more.

Although I do think that what's his name, Baxter, Alan Baxter that he has to fight with is just too weasily to be intimidating.

You know, I think they should have gotten a bigger pimp.

Yeah for Chuck Conters to fight.

Yeah, I do.

I like this one quite a bit.

I think that it does have kind of peck and pause energy, like from the opening, and there is even there there is some shattered glass early on, but it does not turn into the destruction we enjoyed in the Marshall.

And this episode also has a pre credit scene.

I don't think any of the other episodes we're talking about has one.

But I think overall, I think it's got a pretty good story.

I think Katie herado Is is really good in it, and you know, her character is, you know, obviously trying to escape her past, but it keeps catching up with her.

And you know, this time, I like that there are people in the town who kind of want to see her basically be forced to leave.

And but this time she has a support system and the people who are kind of like trying to bring her back to the lifestyle she's trying to leave behind won't bother her anymore because she's got you know, Lucas.

Now.

I am really surprised that she didn't become a reoccurring character, because it does feel like she's being set up as a potential, you know, reoccurring character, and even as a possible like romantic interest for Lucas, because at the end of this episode, Johnny asks him us ask Lucas if wait, am I getting this wrong?

At the end of this episode, yeah, Mark asked Lucas if he thinks Julia can run a boarding house and be a mom, and Lucas sort of laughs and says he reckons so, and so I am kind of surprised that she didn't become a reoccurring character.

And maybe that was never an idea that Peck and Paw or the other people involved in developing the series had, but I think that could have been interesting.

Now.

The one character that I did find kind of loathsome is Agnes, who is the sister of a character John Hamilton, who is a reoccurring character.

I think he's in maybe fifteen or twenty episodes.

He's not in a bunch of them, but he is.

John Hamilton is somebody who is in multiple episodes.

But I'm glad she's one and done.

She is a rough character to take and I get that he's supposed to be unlikable but yeah, I don't think that's really all I have.

I think it's a solid episode.

I don't think it is.

I wouldn't say it's my least favorite, but it's I would rank it towards the bottom though, of these six episodes.

Oh, speaking of miss Agnes there, I do particularly sort of enjoy where Mark says a whole string of incredibly rude things to her at the dinner table, because they're all stuff that you know, he's correcting her, or the way she eats and her matters and how she speaks exactly like Lucas clearly corrects Mark.

Yes, And the fun of it is that I keep waiting for Lucas to say something like shut up, son, but you can tell everyone is disgusted with her, so they're just letting him go on even though they really shouldn't.

But that that is one of the really endearing things.

In that show.

Yes, that that is an amusing moment there, and uh and I and and he does eventually get in get into trouble.

I think he's mentioned something about how old she looks, and then at that point Lucas takes him to another room.

But the things he's telling her is I think the other adult characters in the room probably agree with him.

Yes, I think so too.

All right, well we are moving on to uh still in the same still in the first season.

This is episode thirty three and it's called the Money Gun.

And this is another uh This is an episode with another behind the scenes collaborator that Paul worked with, and it's his name is Bruce Geller, and he co wrote this episode and he also wrote an earlier episode in the series called The Gaucho, and he wrote four episodes of The Westerner, and he went on and he actually went on to create the Mission Impossible series, right, And he was one of the creators on a series I used to enjoy called Mannix.

And this episode's guest star is John Dayner, who he was in just about everything.

I mean, he has three hundred and three credits.

And he was in an episode of gun Smoke that my guest Dan Budnick, and I talked about and he was loathsome in it.

We both wanted to strangle him.

But here he's pretty great and.

The other stars loathsome, yes.

Also loathsome absolutely.

But the other guest star is Bert Freed, and he plays Oate Jackford, who of course, has the same oat Jackford from Home Ranch, so it is interesting to see this character return, and this time played by a different actor who I think also plays him very well.

But Henry, can you give us to the synopsis for this one?

Sure?

Tom King played by John Dayner, a dapper lawman turned hired gun, comes to North Fork to draw someone into a gunfight so he can kill them.

Lucas knows King from when he was a deputy under King and despises him when Lucas learns King has been paid to kill landowner Oak Jackfred his enemy from Home Ranch, although, as you point out, now played by a different actor but also very good, Lucas does everything he can to dissuade Oak from confronting him, but odinsists and ultimately wins by beating King Haf to death with his bare hands, and he and King both knowing it would be murder if King pulled a gun.

In the end, the weasel who paid a King shoots him and is led off to beat tried for burder.

I mean it's just a plot, yes, yet now to keep out of the way.

Really yeah, now, what did.

You what did you think of this episode?

Uh?

Well, I liked it a lot because it's fun and it's it's so unexpected.

I like that of all the people they that they could decide to have be the the guy who you know is going to be the victim, they give us the guy that is so unlikable from the past that Mark says, actually Mark says to his dad, gee, I hope gets killed, yeah, which which gives Lucas the chance to they don't ever be glad Man's gonna die.

But what I like is is Oak wins by using his head smarter than Lucas or Micah or Tom King about how to play this game, and about not bringing a gun, and and of course he even makes the point to break up King's gun hand, not knowing he's going to be killed, to put him out of business, which struck me just like Dennis Hopper got shot in the hand at the end of the pilot.

It's yeah, yeah, It's just sort of a curious repeat.

And Danner, I think is terrific and an actor of great range.

He was on the radio.

He was palid In on the radio version of Have Gun Will Travel.

He played Pat Garrett to Paul Newman's Billy the Kid in the left handed gun.

I love that he is so sort of aristocratic in his mind.

He has such contempt for anyone that would actually hire him rather than do their own fighting, that he won't drink with the man who's paid him five hundred dollars in advance.

Yes, I just think that, you know, it's another really great example of what could be a very familiar character that I guess between Peg and Pahn and Bruce Geller, they really made into this terribly memorable guy.

And yeah, I'm surprised as a matter of fact that Old Oak did not come back again as far as I know, because, yeah, bringing him back once.

And by the way, I agree with you.

I thought Katie Herrado was going to be back.

Also, I thought they really set that up with Johnny from the last episode.

Yeah, that would it would have been really interesting.

And I can't I feel like they did have some love interests later on in the series.

I can't recall specifically.

I'm trying to think of her name, Irish actress, Irish American who was also the wife on the Daniel Boone series, and she was on quite a few episodes.

Yeah, I can't.

I can't recall who it.

Was and it will come to me.

But but yet, now I'm going to sound like a broken record.

But I love this episode as well.

I like you.

I think Danner is fantastic as Tom King, and I think Bert Freed brings something different to Oat Jackford character, to the Oat Jackford character Van Harold Stone?

Did he actually you mentioned that you were interested in Noirs earlier on?

And I thought Bert Freed kind of remind reminded me of the type of character William Bendix would play in an are kind of a little oafish, but you have very tough and you know in home Ranch, Haroldstone is a fighter, but you get the sense he's more likely to use his henchmen than do the fighting himself.

Yeah, but.

There's one A brief moment that really stood out to me this time around was early in an episode where a character named Bert is telling Lucas that he has to sell everything he has thanks to Jackford, right, and he says Jackford never gave him a break and that he's been having some bad weather recently, and Lucas's response to him is that we all get the same weather.

It's not Jackford's fault that you get wet out of a bottle, and I thought it was so interesting that you naturally have sympathy for a character who has to give up everything they have, especially since we know what type of character oat Jackford is, and so you want to root for people that he's hurting.

But here Lucas has no sympathy and is basically saying he's you're losing everything because you're a drunk, not because of this character, and so I I thought that was a really interesting moment.

And I also I love the way they build up Tom King.

He's this unstoppable gunman, you know, they even say that Lucas is no match for him, and then when he faces off with oat Jackford, yeah, Jackford has no fear.

He just walks right towards him, never reaching for a weapon, and since he doesn't draw, of course Tom King can't either, and King is no match for Jackford when it comes to just hand to hand fighting, and so it's almost comedic, like the way Jackford just keeps walking towards King.

And I think Danner's reaction also to him just continuing to walk forward within you know, never reaching for his weapon, is also kind of funny.

But yeah, overall, I just think it's it is a terrific, terrific episode.

But do you have any final thoughts on this one?

Are you ready to move on?

Well, I would just throw in that, like so many of them, they're full of these these little directorial touches that are just unexpected.

There's and they're so small, but it grabs your attention.

Like there's a point where they slide a bottle of whiskey along the bar and there's a glass on top of the bottle, so it rattles.

The whole way.

Oh yeah, little moments like that Lucas when he's sitting on a horse waiting I think for I'm not positive, but he's waiting for some character to come along, and he's just sitting with one leg thrown over the top.

Of the saddle.

You never see a cowboy in a western sitting like that, right, But it's just like, huh, he must really be comfortable.

Up there, you know.

It's just they're full of these little things that they add that just make you pay attention.

Just I'll just throw back from a couple of episodes ago with Warren Oates the fact that he was wearing shoulder holsters when nobody wore shoulder holsters and westerns, but they were really out there.

Just the Peck and Pie episodes always looked like they were made by someone who didn't see too many other westerns.

You know that they're happy to not repeat stuff.

Right, all right?

Excellent?

Okay, so we are moving on to now.

This is the only episode from season two that Peck and Paw is credited on, and this is episode twelve, and it's called The Babysitter and John Dayner is back, and this time he's playing a religious psycho named Wood Bartel.

And the other guest stars are Lillian Bronson who was in She actually was in the previous episode in this season, playing a different character.

And then Phyllis Avery who plays Leona is the wife who's running away from Wood Bartel.

Yeah, but Henry, this is this is our final plot, Sumery.

Can you tell us what this episode's about?

Sure, as you say, John Dayner is back.

Now he's Bartel, a religious fanatic with a bull whip looking for his wife who is run off with their baby daughter and is singing in saloons.

Lucas and most of the town go to the mother's aid, helping her hide out the baby.

But when Mark is guarding her at the ranch.

Bartel locks him in the meat smoking house and escapes with the baby.

Lucas and Bartelovis show down in town.

Bartel whips the rifle from Lucas's hand, then flogs him until Lucas grabs the end of the whip, jerks it from his hand, and beats it, and the baby goes off happily ever after with her mother.

All right, now, I'm gonna say right away, now this is actually my least favorite.

Oh it's yours, Okay, excellent.

So I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

What did you think?

Well?

The things I like.

I love Danner's wonderful speeches.

I've washed my hands of that Jezebel outside chest Tis when I've nothing left to offer.

I followed where to get my own back?

They my daughter.

I will not have the small one following in the foot in the steps of her mother.

I mean, this is just you know, when you have an actor with that kind of a voice and delivery, it's it's wonderful.

Yeah.

But what among the things that bother me is you could make the argument that you know she's singing in a saloon.

That's the wonderful life that they're offering is singing in a saloon like a euphemism, like say, being a crooked car dealer.

It could be My favorite moment in the whole thing is marked resourcefulness using a smoked ham to smash his way out of the barn.

Yeah.

And uh, one way, you know that this was written by a man and not a woman.

Would a woman write a scene where men are taking care of a child for a short time they decide to change her name.

I mean, I know they never caught heed, right, is just it's it's weird.

Yeah, everyone's support of her just seems so random to me.

As you say to me, this is the weakest of them.

Yeah, now, I now immediately you know when you see John Dayner in this he has this hitty is fake beard.

And if you've listened to any of the episodes where Dan bud Nick and I have talked about the first season of gun Smoke, you know, fake beards usually means we're getting a bad episode.

And I'm just really not into this episode.

I think the concept is okay.

The execution, though, is really lacking.

And I don't know what Peck and Paul contributed to the script and what Jack Curtis brought to it.

But I'm going to sign and I'm going to sign a sign all of the blame to Curtis.

But I and on one thing, I was reminded, I I don't know if you were, but of the movie The Night of the Hunter, which is one of my favorite movies.

I absolutely love Night of the Hunter.

But I don't know if it's a movie Peck and Paw was a fan of.

But I think the idea of a psychotic religious man like trying to track down his child because he thinks his wife, who you know, works as a saloon girl, isn't fit to raise the child child anymore.

Now that's not the exact story of Night of the Hunter, but I do think there are some similarities.

And I think the scene where Wood shows up at the ranch and it's just marking the baby at the ranch, I think is pretty effective, just the way that Bartel just kind of slowly walks Mark towards the smokehouse and kind his head.

Yes, yeah, that is pretty unsettling.

It is right, but the rest of it just didn't do a whole lot for me.

Now, now, the whip, I think is a very odd choice for a weapon, but I guess it's sort of fun.

And maybe since he is a religious person he is not using a gun, maybe he's making maybe that's some sort of a statement.

I'm not really one hundred percent sure, but yeah, I don't know.

I mean, do you have any other thoughts on this one?

Not much, but I must say, yeah, the one really chilling thing in the whole show is, as you say, when he's pushing Johnny Crawford towards the smokehouse.

And I had not thought of Knight in The Hunter, but you know, immediately I could see Robert Mitcham doing that.

It's just it's a really good comparison if the whole episode had been of that level.

But you know, I think that this may really be sort of indicating the where the problems were for Packing Pot in this because now we're twelve episodes into the second season, so that's like fifty two shows, right, and you can see that that there's interesting stuff, but they're holding back too much because of the child situation.

It is becoming that sort of awkward kid show that that Peck and Paw described it as when he left.

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think, Yeah, it's definitely, this is definitely a step down and and and maybe you know, maybe maybe Peck and Pa basically had like both feet out the door at this point and sort of phone this one in.

But yeah, it definitely is not up to, uh the standard that had been previously set by the other Peck and Paw episodes now kind of and bringing this towards a close, I did want to touch on the creative differences between Peck and Paw and the producing team, right and uh Now, I know one issue was that Peck and Paw wanted to see Mark grow up and change as he got older, which I think makes a lot of sense, but I can also understand why they didn't do that.

It's kind of safer to keep the dynamic the same throughout in a way.

And then I know another issue was from Lavin's perspective, he said Peg and Paul was going over budget on his directorial efforts in this series, so that was an issue.

But but can you touch on any other creative differences that they had?

Well?

What the.

Complaint that that Peck and Pa had, which you know you have touched on.

Is the one thing that I that I always heard was the you know, creative difference came down to the kid and was he going to grow And you know, these scenes that we talked about with Mark in all of these episodes are among the most interesting things in it because he is a smart but inexperienced kid, but he is learning and getting better at it, and so you can see why it would make for a more interesting show in the long run.

You know, The Simpsons is the only show where no kid ever grows up right, and you know, and Bart is played by a woman in probably your fifties now, and you can't do that on camera.

The amazing thing is how many episodes they would do.

They would do thirty nine or forty episodes a year a season, so it was an incredible amount of stuff.

So I can see how if you're going to show him growing a little in every episode, he's going to get mature real fast.

Yes, do forty notches in a year.

But at the same time, over time, when you look you look at an individual episode of the series, uh, and everything he does is fine.

But if you're looking at you know, like you're two three seasons in and you've been watching them all and the new stranger comes to town and he and immediately Mark befriends him and you just want to scream.

Don't you know that every stranger who comes to town is from your dad's past and wants to kill him?

Right?

They just, you know, stand alone, the episodes are great, but you know, when they are combined the kids seems extremely dense.

So yeah, but but these this was at a time when shows were expected to stand alone, not the characters are not to build.

So I mean it's I don't think either one was wrong, really, it was just that they could not see eyed eye.

The peck and paw approach would have made more interesting shows, but a lot less of them.

Yes, yeah, for sure.

I think that's.

I think it was good for everyone and good that they parted.

But I think that he really created, even if he isn't credited with creating it, that what he created there about the whole relationship between them and Micah just just grew beautifully, you know over the however many five seasons was it?

Yeah?

I believe it was five?

Yeah, yeah, now it has for me.

It's been a while since I've revisited any of the later seasons of The Riflemen, so I can't really cite specific examples of other kind of Peck and Paw esque themes or characters.

But do you think his influence can be felt through the series after he moved on or do you think that if there's a pretty clear change once he was out of the kind of creative team.

Well, I think he sort of built the dynamics so that you really almost every episode that's you know, of a serious nature, which is like three quarters of them, you can't help but be influenced by by the way he set it up, set up the character of Lucas McCain and what he will and will not stand for, what he is capable of, and what he's not.

He's kind of like a pre Rambo Rambo.

Yeah, he does stuff that you think, Wow, that is amazing that he could pull things off like that.

But I don't think that, you know, there was like any attempt to consciously copy its plots, but just by creating the basic relationships of the core characters and knowing that you would have to bring in someone from out of town every episode, it's sort of it had to fit into the peck and pum mold to some degree.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I think I really want to revisit some of the later episodes because it's it's been a while, but I think that jumping back into a later episode, I'm sure I'll feel like Peck and Baugh's influences is definitely still still in it.

Now.

I do have one last question and then that'll kind of lead to uh to wrapping up.

But what do you think is the show's legacy in TV history and do you think that it still holds up today?

I think it holds up really very well.

And you know, you made the point there were in the fifties and early sixties, there was anywhere between thirty five and fifty new Western series on in prime time.

Yeah, every week.

It was incredible the amount of stuff that was there, and you think how few of them are seen again and the quality is there.

I mean, I don't think Chuck Connors was ever an actor that people compared to Olivier, and I'm not making a cheap shot there.

I think he was very good at what he did, but I mean nobody said he's a great actor, but he was absolutely perfectly effective in that role.

And we don't really know what his range was because he wasn't, you know, offered widely different Things, but I think he was excellent in there, and Johnny Crawford was terrific and oh gosh, a gentleman who played Micah.

Oh, Paul Fix, Paul.

Fix, Thank you.

They You know, the professionalism of it holds up when an awful lot of other shows in the same period are embarrassingly dated and corny and stiff.

I think that the idea of frontier stories that are focused on families and particularly giving children important roles more than say Brandon Dewilda, who's great in Shamee but he's mostly just watching what happens, to have them involved as pretty unusual.

And I think films like Old Yeller and shows like The Riflemen proved that it could work in a mature, dramatic way.

I know the books predated, but I don't think that we would have ever had shows like Little House on the Prairie, right, or The Waltons or Doctor Quinn Medicine Woman if we didn't first have The Riflemen.

And you know there's recently, I don't know if you've caught the it's an excellent Nicholas Cage Western The Old Way, where his relationship with his daughter I think is very clearly influenced by the Rifleman.

I think Kevin Costner's Horizon Part one, the kids in that are you know, frontier kids influenced that way in Taylor Sheridan's eighteen eighty three.

I think all of these shows owe a great debt to the Rifleman, and really did Johnny Crawford man.

I actually I haven't seen the Nicholas Cage western.

I actually haven't watched a recent western a while, but I will have to track that down.

It's called, as you said, it's called The Old.

Way, yes, and it's it's very good.

And one of the interesting things that I forget the name of the girl who's in it, who's very good, but the old, ordinary bad guy in it is Clint Howard, who is Ron Howard's brother.

Oh, yes, you know, the kid from Gentle Ben and I got to talk to him about working with this girl.

And anyhow, he's somebody who always, as a kid in westerns played this kind of old soul and a little bitty body.

But it's it's you know, I think that, Yeah, there is a direct line between Horizon and eighteen eighty three and The Old Way and The Rifleman.

Yeah.

No, I think that The Rifleman absolutely holds up today.

I mean, I'm sure there are some episodes with very dated elements, but I think Lucas and Mark are just great characters.

And even after Peck and Paul left, I mean, there are other great directors and great guest stars that worked on the show.

You know.

Le Van Cleef was in several episodes, and he's in one episode that with Warren Oates, so that's definitely worth tracking down.

And Joseph H.

Lewis directed a bunch of episodes, something like fifty, and he made one of my favorite b noir movies, Gun Crazy, and that's wonderful.

Yeah, Gun Crazy is awesome.

And then Richard Donner directed several episodes.

I don't know if this is the first show, the first series he worked on, but this is definitely very early Richard Donner work.

And Bud Bettecker directed an episode, and Ida Lupino did an episode as well, So there's other reasons to watch The Rifleman, you know, even though Peg and Pau's contributions were mostly limited to the first season.

All right, well, Henry, I think that we I think we did it.

I think that we have successfully spoken about the uh PEG and Paw episodes of The Riflemen.

So do you have do you have any other podcast appearances or Blu Ray commentaries or anything else that you want to tell listeners about before we sign off.

Oh well, as a matter of fact, Ken Olrber just brought out they've been bringing out a lot of Audie Murphy Blu rays.

Yes, and working with my commentary partner ce Courtney Joyner, we just did commentary on Drums Across the River and The Cimarron Kid.

At the first Thursday of every month, I'm on rendezvous with the writer talking Western movies and Western novels.

I write a blog, oh, I'd say about monthly for the i NSP channel about westerns, and of course I keep writing Henry's Western round Up, so it's I'm all over the place.

All right, Henry, Well, thanks so much.

This was tremendous, great pleasure.

I hope you enjoyed this week's episode.

I really enjoyed having the opportunity to talk to Henry about a series I've been a big fan of for a long time, and I'm hoping that Henry will return soon to talk about another show in the near future.

Next week, will be a little different.

Instead of talking about a movie or TV series.

I'll be joined by author Mark Archuletta, and we're going to talk about his new book, The Real Thrilling Events of Bank Robber Henry Starr, and the conversation will cover early Western cinema and how outlaws and lawmen of the Old West became entertainers, some of them even going into the film industry.

And we'll talk about the main subject of the book, Henry Starr, who went from being a bank robber to becoming an actor and then went back to Robbie Banks again.

So it should be very interesting and I'm sure it's something that listeners will enjoy.

Until then.

If you're looking for more film related podcasts, please check out other shows on the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

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