I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students, you know, who would be like, it's easier to punt someone in the face.

And what I realized was there was a missing link.

And the missing link goes back to this being one's best self or motivation.

And so when you think about emotion regulation, like, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you, because it's easier to say, like like you go blank yourself, right, it's easy.

It's easy to just drink the extra beer.

It's easy to ignore, to suppress to seeing a colleague who's bothering you, and just like walk the other way.

Avoidance is easier.

Ignoring is easier, denials easier, Drinking is easier, yelling, Screaming is easy but complex problem solving.

Meditating, you know, takes effort.

Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we explore the depths of human potential.

Today we have doctor Mark Brackett on the show Doctor Brackett is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of multiple books, including his most recent book, Dealing with Feeling, Use your Emotions to create the life you want.

In this important conversation, we discuss why we have so much trouble dealing with our feelings, the importance of coregulation, and why having grace for ourselves matters so much.

As doctor Brackett says in his book, virtually everything that has ever happened in your life, good, bad, happy, sad, frustrating, satisfying, joyous, discouraging, depressing was influenced by how you responded to your emotions, how you dealt with your feelings.

In this chat, Mark gives you some tips to sort that out.

So, without further ado, I'll bring you doctor Mark Bracket, Doctor Mark Bracket, Welcome to the Psychology Podcast.

Thank you.

I was almost gonna say that's my name, don't wear it out.

But I just I don't know if this younger generation would know what that means.

I like it.

How are you?

Man?

You know, I'm good.

I'm just a little overwhelmed.

But other than that, you know, just kind of like I decided to listen to some advice, which is in my chronic state of overwhelm.

I just stay focused on what matters most of me and kind of like put my head down and do the work.

And it helps.

Yeah, it does help.

Do you get over Do you tend to get more overwhelmed cognitively or emotionally?

I would say both, yeah, because I just have a lot on my plate and then I get worked.

I get worked up about it emotionally, and then I'm like, why am I doing this in myself?

This is ridiculous.

Yes, and you do do a lot of it to yourself.

It's you know, like you chose to live this life, and you chose to sign up for helping so many people.

Yeah, I mean there's a choice, right, you know, you got My theory is you've got one life to live.

I feel like I've been put on this earth for this purpose, and I'm going to do the best I can during this time and then hopefully there'll be other people to take it over.

I love it.

Well, tell me what is the purpose?

Oh, you're really pushing now already.

I think it's you know, if I were to say what the real goal of my work is, it's to make sure that people have the skills they need to navigate their lives.

I mean, that's very broad.

I think that one of the most important skills, as you know from my new book, is emotion regulation.

And if I had to, if I had a pinpoint any of the kind of social and emotional skills that are the most valuable, I think, if you can't deal with your own emotions and you can't help other people deal with theirs, life is going to be difficult, no matter how good looking you are, no matter how rich you are or what position you have.

Yeah, I loved your new book.

I thought it was your best one.

Thank you.

That's kind of I think this one's your magnum opus.

Oh, I appreciate that.

I guess we'll see.

But if if there's another one, the next one that could be even better.

But no, this one was really great and helped me a lot as well with my own emotional regulation.

My printer just started and I have no idea what it's going to be printing right now.

That's weird.

It's just like random randomly printing things.

Okay, okay, we'll see what comes out.

But anyway, what is emotion regulation?

You know, there's a lot of debate in the field about how that term should be defined.

Yeah, I think this.

I have a formula that I created to help me and others kind of think about it, which is not the definition.

But I'll just share that with you first, which is that emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies.

So we have goals for emotion regulation.

I want to feel less angry, I want to feel more contentment, and that it's a function of the emotion you're feeling.

So what goals and strategies I use will depend upon if I'm angry, if I'm sad, if I'm happy, or if I'm frustrated.

So it's the emotion the person that I am.

So you know, I tend to be on the neurotic side.

I tend to be introverted.

I'm Jewish in terms of background, so my culture and comes all into play.

And then the context, you know, right here on this webinar or this podcast with you, versus giving a presentation, versus being in a shopping mall m hm.

And so yeah, yeah, it sounds like flexibility is named the game.

There it is, And so my my real definition of it, Let's see if you can get if I can get this right, you know, being pressed is that emotion regulation is the thoughts and actions that we use to prevent, reduce, initiate, maintain, or enhance emotions h for a purpose to have well being, to make good decisions, to have and maintain healthy relationships, and achieve goals.

Well, I like it.

And a lot of this you you talk about is in the service of realizing your best self or your best selves.

And let's see that as a common theme.

Thought that was cool.

That was a little uh connection to my own work and self actualization.

Yeah, I thought a lot about that.

And one of my visions for this is that the that when we have an identity as someone who is skilled at dealing with emotion, that it just changes the way we operate in the world.

And and if I can have this mindset like Mark, you're like, you're like the feelings master, which is what one of my things called me from among the courses, And I don't like that term so much, but I said, well, what about if the best versions of ourselves were people who were highly skilled that emotion regulation, what would be different in the world around us?

And I think a lot would be different.

I think if people had that mindset.

Government policies would be different, leadership would be different, warranting would be different, friendships would be different, et cetera.

Oh wow, I mean yeah, very far far reaching implications.

It does seem like we're living in a society right now where no one's regulating their emotions and when they talk to each other in particular, you know, emotional regular is not just something that you do solitary, right, No.

And I think that's a big piece of what I discovered, you know, in my work, which is that we tend to be so self focused, you know, in America, especially like self control, you know.

And yes, if I'm trying to lose weight, I need to have self control not to eat the doughnut, of course, that's part of it.

But honestly, you know, we're in relationships most of our lives, whether it's a relationship with ourselves or our partners, or our parents, or our colleagues or you know whatever.

And you know, if you really think about it, emotions for the most part are coregulated.

And so you know, I always, you know, when I give speeches, like you do, give speeches a lot, I often, you know, use my own work of course, and I'm like, how are you feeling?

And people are all over the place in terms of how they're feeling, and I say, well, what's your strategy for getting the most out of the day?

And of course you get the basics.

I'm going to breathe, right, I'm going to drink water, I'm going to drink coffee.

I'm going to get up and stand up, I'm going to move around the room.

And I said, all, that's fine, but is there anything missing from you know, your list of strategies.

And then of course people all doodle, I'm going to crochet, you know, like people just come up with lots of things that they're going to do to maintain, you know, themselves, And then I push and push and push, and eventually someone will say, well, maybe I won't need to regulate if you're a good presenter.

And I think there's a lot to that that our jobs, you know, as people who get stage and present stuff, is to create an emotional experience that keeps people engaged.

Just like it's unfair to the kid in the classroom whose teacher says focus when the content is boring and the delivery is worse.

Yeah, and taking responsibility as a teacher is a big one because it's very easy to blame the kids these days.

Or parents too.

Yeah, that's true, that's very true.

Yeah you you you always put me into this zen state with your presentations.

Very calm, you calm me down.

You strike me as someone very calm.

Is what is your inner life?

Like?

Mark?

Does it match that word perception?

It's like fifty to fifty for me.

Okay, I'm you know, I'm either I'm never really like mister happy dappy, just not in my genetics for what reason, you know, Like I'm trying to have a little more like joy and excitement, but it's not like a natural tendency for me.

I'm also not someone who is like a pessimist or who like feels depression or despair a lot.

But I am someone who is wound up and I worry, and I worry about why I worry.

I even joke that I worry about why I worry about why I worry.

Very neurotic and.

I don't have that much to worry about.

But like my grandfather, who is very neurotic, is in my ear saying like you laugh now, you cry later, and uh, And so I've worked on that but you know, I tend to have a you know, a high startle reflex, and so I'm aware of it, and you know, I check in a lot and I have a lot of strategy.

I'm lucky that I am.

I really do practice what I preach.

Yeah, for the most part, you do.

I really like your approach of a lot of people talk about self compassion in the field.

But used a word that stopped me in my tracks when I got to it.

You said, grace, show yourself.

Grace quote the ability to stop ourselves from reacting in ways we later regret.

I've never really thought of that as having grace to ourselves, but totally in retrospect, it's like, wow, yeah, that's really what that is.

I really liked that.

Mark.

Where did how did that?

How did you come up with that?

I just thought about it.

You know, well, you know, in religious practices we say grace and it has a meaning to it, and I think that we have to have forgiveness and grace.

Like we are imperfect people.

We're going to get triggered.

We all want control, We want, you know, so many things, and life doesn't go the way.

You know.

It's funny because as I was thinking about like the work that I do in terms of regulation and at the highest level, Right, what do we want?

We want to control everything?

Like I was thinking I'm so controlling.

I realized, like I want to know how fast people walk with me.

I want to control how people write articles with me.

I want to control you know, what TV show we watch or not watch.

I mean, it's crazy in the end, like secretly, I just want everything to go exactly what I'm sure I mean.

I can't be alone in that, huh And okay, yeah, God, are you not that way?

No, no, no, I was going to say, that's not my perception of you.

But but yeah, I don't see you as a very controlling person.

But no, it's not that I'm I don't express it to people as much, but in my brain, like I'm thinking to myself things like I really wanted to work out this way.

I want this to happen this way.

I want that, Like I can map out everything.

Not everything happens the way we want it to happen.

Most things don't.

And so you know, if I could control policies that are being put in place right now that are affecting children's healthy development, I would do it.

And I'm trying to do that, but I don't have that much power, and so I try to find the people I can talk to about it with.

I try to do my peace in the world to help people, and I feel like the relationship piece comes in second.

So it's like control the world not necessarily really going to happen, build healthy relationships, to have that camaraderie, to have that ability to connect with people, I can do something about that.

And when that's not around, like last week, I was in London doing something and you know, everything could have you know, not everything went wrong with my flights, and I'm like, I can't call my mother.

She's not alive anymore.

You know, I was going to call my partner.

It was you know, the timing of the day was right, and I'm just like, Mark, this is it, Like this is your life right, and you know what, you have to edit a whole manuscript.

You have all the time of the world to do that right now.

And so it's like shift thinking, do something productive.

Shift thinking, do something productive.

And so it's like change the world.

Build relationships, are like take control of it for your in your mind.

Yeah, well you could have called me buddy.

At your four o'clock in the morning.

I'm not sure you would have wanted that.

Okay, fair enough?

No, no you, I mean you you You've got all the skills within you.

And I think that a big part of your message is that we all do you know you don't have to be the emotion master to learn these skills?

Is that right?

Well, none of us is and born that way.

You know, it was joke, what do you gaga?

Got it wrong?

We weren't born that way.

Everything is learned.

And I'm going to say that with like with strength.

None of us is born with a toolbox to regulate our emotions.

And so, unfortunately for I think many of us, we had not good role models.

You know, I didn't have good role models.

My father had terrible anger and was very justsregulated, and when I saw his you know, piercing eyes and his pressed lips and the red in his face, it was like hell is going to happen now.

And my mother was always terrified and anxious and locking herself in her room and having a breakdown as they called it back in the eighties.

And so like what did I learn?

I learned to be very reactive with my anger and to be neurotic and shut down with my anxiety.

And then you know, when it was like eighteen, I started studying Marshall.

At fifteen, I started studying martial arts and I went to this like meditation kind of class, and I was like, oh my god, there's another way.

There are people who can still their mind.

There are people who don't react in this way.

And then you know, I had my uncle who was my mentor, and then I you know, studied psychology and then I was like, oh my god, there are like real things that you can do in your mind and with other people that can help you manage life's ups and downs.

Okay, so does this relate to the idea of coregulation.

A coregulation is a is a big process, and I think that's where it starts.

It starts with the top what is it?

So Koger And at the simplest level, coregulation is the back and forth between two people, usually a mom and a baby or dad and a baby when they're when you know, at birth, where the baby's crying and the mom comes in or the dad comes in to sue the baby, whether it's little lullabies or a little you know, air shaking, rocking, you know, cuddling, and the goal is to kind of balance each other's nervous systems.

Now it looks different as adults.

You know, if I'm talking with you and you're like Mark and I'm having a rough day.

If I say, you know, Scott, get over it, move on, like what are you so worried about?

Not the most not the kindest form of coregulation, right, or interpersonal regulation.

But if I say, hey, you know, let's talk about it.

You know, you feel like going for a walk, you want to go for a cup of coffee, you know, no judgment here, just like let it go, you know, whatever you want to say.

And then if I wouldn't say I have a feeling about it, I'd be like, oh my gosh, really that's what he's worrying about.

But judgment doesn't really help, right, And so it's sort of like just being curious and supportive.

And I think this is why the coregulation has to come from someone who's skilled it self regulation, because a if I have the strategies, like I know about the breathing exercises, I know the cognitive strategies, I know the social support strategies, and I know you as a person.

You know you're also neurotically young or not, or introverted or extroverted or whatever it is.

I can then kind of like think to myself, let me make this offering and see if Scott feels like trying that strategy.

You know, if I know you're a nature person, I'm going to be like, get out of your apartment and go for a walk.

Let's go, come on, let's go to the park.

You know.

If I know that you are someone who likes zen and meditation, I'm going to be like, let's, you know, let's go do some breathing exercises together.

If I know you're someone who likes to chat, it's like, let's go for a coffee and talk about things that we're passionate about.

Hill, I want to take a moment to make a few important announcements that I'm really excited about.

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Hey, now back to the show.

Wow.

Co regulation.

Yeah, that's a really important skill and it does do.

It does highlight the fact that self regulation just doesn't operate in our own head.

There's something that emerges, there's like a regulation that emerges.

And I think what happens is that a lot of people are afraid of it because I think they have to be the KNOWA I don't have to know exactly what you need.

I have to have, you know, a breadth of strategies because then I could like pull from them to offer them.

But I think that the ultimate form is the relationship that we have and how I connect with you.

And just sometimes, by the way, the mere presence of someone is a deact evader dia divater.

Yeah, I mean that My uncle Marvin was that for me.

M hm, when I'm in his presence.

When I won, I was in his presence, everything seemed to be okay.

It was amazing to me, whereas there are other people in my life that when I'm in their presence I feel completely on edge, uncomfortable, and yeah.

Hopefully that's not me.

No, you're not one of those.

Uh you know, I know, I know what you mean.

Some some people feel like, uh, like I've like I've entered a black hole.

Uh, there's like nothing I'm getting.

There's nothing, there's no aliveness of the of the there's no mutuality.

Does it.

Can you resonate with that at all?

Yeah?

There's something about it.

And so you know, in my research I talk about feelings mentors m hm.

And there are characteristics of these mentors.

They're non judgmental, they're good listeners, and they show empathy and compassion.

And a lot of people approach people with a lot of judgment, with no compassion and terrible listening skills.

And those are the people we tend to like.

When I'm around those people, I just don't feel like I don't want to.

I can't be my true self.

That's yeah, there it is, you're not seen.

Yeah, And what I find in my research, this is now cross cultural, by the way, about thirty thousand people in my research study at this point, is it only a third of people feel like they had someone like that in their lives when they were growing up.

Two thirds of people feel like that person was absent from their development.

Wow.

That's really sad.

Wow, I we're all kind of fucked up.

I'm not gonna I won't use that term, but I it's in part you're right, not wrong, which is that way have to operationally define it.

Yeah, what's what's his name?

Nathaniel Brandon, who wrote a lot about self esteem.

He talked a lot about how a lack of psychological visibility that's the phrase he used in childhood really helps really contributes to the development of low self esteem as adults.

He linked, He linked those things very much.

So there's something there that's true.

I like that.

Yeah, me too, And well, low self esteem really is an uncertain self esteem.

You're not sure who are you really?

You know?

And well, my what's my worth?

What's my purpose and value in this world?

And related to that, Scott, I found in my research that people who have the mentors growing up have about twenty percent higher purpose and meaning in life as adults.

Really, Yeah, you found that data.

You found that in your own data.

Yeah, and it's been replicated.

This is like seventy different samples that I've used, and I would say, stop showing off.

Ninety percent of those samples it's replicated.

Wow.

I mean that's a really big effect.

That's a big effect size it is, I imagine given the you know, the sample numbers.

Holy cow.

Okay, So there's really something really important there and profound.

I thought, maybe we can go through some of the skills sure that people could use.

You have a four step solution since stop strategize succeed.

This is your meta moment method.

You need to talk a little bit about that method.

So yeah, So years ago, I have a colleague.

Her name is Robin Stern.

She's also a psychologist, and she's an expert at gaslighting.

Sure a gaslight effect, but she doesn't do she's not a guest letter.

She just helps people who have been gas split.

And she's a clinical psychologist.

I'm a research psychologist with some clinical training, but I really focus on research.

And she would see patients for years and like teach them strategies and they wouldn't use them, or they'd say that's amazing.

They try it once, it would fail, and then they wouldn't do it again.

I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students, you know, who would be like, it's easier to punt someone in the face.

And what I realized was there was a missing link.

And the missing link goes back to this being one best self or motivation.

And so when you think about emotion regulation, like you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you, because it's easy to say, like like you go blank yourself, right, it's easy.

It's easy to just drink the extra beer.

It's easy to ignore, to suppress to seeing a colleague who's bothering you, and just like walk the other way.

Avoidance is easier, Ignoring is easier, denials easier, drinking is easier, Yelling, Screaming is easy, but complex problem solving.

Meditating, you know, takes effort, and so you have to realize, like, oh, I'm going to benefit from this, and so what we decided to do was play around.

We've played around them with this for years.

Was a model to help people will see the value of emotion regulation.

And so the first steps you got to know you're having a feeling, right, You got to be aware that something there is a sensation in your body and your mind, that someone has said something or whatever happened in the world that is activating you in some way or form or another.

And we all have triggers, you know, I mean every one of us.

Does you know, For example, one of my big things because of where I work and actually you were there, so you know this too.

We met when you were my teaching a fellow.

That's true.

Look at that cool you've grown up.

The uh is entitlement, you know, and so like I come from very humble, blue collar roots.

My father was in your commision repairman.

My mom had.

Various jobs as a secretary of different things.

And here I am at this university where, you know, I get students who are like Professor Brackett.

I've got a question, but you know, I'm not really sure you're going to note the answer.

And you know, my internal self in my brain is like, I may not know the answer, but I'm going to grade your paper.

You know.

My point is that it's like activating for me.

And I want to say something like who you know?

Who raised you?

You know, I want to really go back at these kids.

And of course I'm the professor of emotional intelligence.

So I stop, take my breath and I think, Mark, how would the best version of yourself respond to this?

How would the feelings master?

How would you know the director of the Center for freaking Emotional Intelligence use the information widely?

What wouldn't Mark Brackett do?

Yeah, W W M B.

D and It's amazing though, when you can lower the temperature and shift your mindset to this kind of superhero self or direct yourself or whatever that self is for you, you come up with a lot at our ideas.

And so usually, like when I have that entitlement issue, I just say things like I'm really curious what made you ask the question that way?

And then all of a sudden like, oh, you know, I'm not being retaliatory, but I'm being curious and I'm being firm, okay.

And I find it works well for my own family life because I'm in a good marriage and I have a husband we've been together for thirty years, but he's an artist.

I'm an academic, and we don't have a lot in common, and so I'm mister like director, producer, like you know, I like things in order.

I'm very I have a calendar that's perfectly organized, and I live an artist who doesn't operate that way.

And so I'm practicing this a lot because it's like I have an expectation that this person has the same brain as I do, and it's not that way.

And again going back to control, like if it were the way I'd like it to be, you'd do this when I say you do it, and we'd have this accomplished and blah blah blah blah blah.

And it doesn't always work out that way.

So I used to just like lose it, and then I decided, like, first, Mark, you have no control over this guy's brain.

This is the way he operates.

And you wouldn't be attracted to someone who was like you anyway, because you can't even stand yourself.

That's hilarious.

And there's a lot of benefits to having this creative partner.

And so before you enter the door today, before you come home and enter into the chaos or not, how are you going to show up?

And I activate Mark the Feelings master mentor before I walk in the house, and then no matter what expectation was it met or whatever happens, I'm able to manage it and not always.

I'm not perfect.

Just but my point is here that it's a step like that that you're What we're talking about here is that you notice what's going on.

You can be preventative too improactive about it.

You take that breath to deactivate your system, you see your best self, and then you can strategize and act in a way that aligns with your values to achieve a great outcome.

So I really really like that.

And my question is, can your strategy?

Can you decide the best strategy for you is to is to not be so calm?

I just I find that that whenever people talk about their best self, they it's just always goes back to like kindness and all the fucking boring shit.

Ye know, I'm joking, but I agree with you.

No, No, it's like you never hear someone say like I just want to play Devil's advocate for a second.

It's okay, And this might not be my best self coming out right now, and I may I love that mark.

But but but I but there's a part of me that really values and thinks that my my part of my best self is honesty.

Yeah, and there's so much bullshit in this world, and I don't think every single thing has to be kindness, every free I don't know, by the way, And I want to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, I want to hear your thoughts on that.

So sometimes truth So you would say you can always integrate truth and kindness, you would say something like that, probably like you you would say you never have to sacrifice kindness in the in the service of truth.

Is that?

Is that what you would say?

I agree, I do believe that.

Okay, I don't think you have Maybe it depends how you define the word kindness.

Well, I don't think you have to pummel someone to get your message across and so sure, and I think that you know, if you are someone, for example, in our society right now at present, if you are a minority status, life is tougher for you.

And I don't think that telling someone who is being who is a victim of racism to like be calm is the right thing.

I think that's that's an injustice right there.

I think we have to support people and being assertive and really being clear like what you said is not cool.

And I think sometimes our best selves, you know, stands up for ourselves and stands up for other people.

When I witness and it done this, I try my best to not be like, everything's okay.

Now, let's see it's not okay, Like what you said is not cool.

Now.

I don't have to punch you in the face and tell you to go blank yourself, but I do have to say it with a lot of clarity.

You know, listen, that's that's not cool.

It's not working right now.

And what you just said really was inappropriate and unhelpful and I needed to stop.

Really you talking about my point?

Now I can act from that.

Did it worked?

Work?

That was good?

That was good.

No, I I do hear what you're saying, and I and I think I'm making it a little bit of a different point, you know, because not everything's about injustice, and justice is one example, and yeah, and that's it's a good example for sure.

Yeah, I've been practicing the art of yes end lately, the improv thing, and because I'm working on a project right now, Second City Improv and we're trying to like create world peace through yes ending.

So definitely, So yes, that was that was a really good example.

But you know, sometimes people say things that aren't true and if you if you point out what the truth is, it hurts their feelings.

And so you know, what do you do about that?

You know, situation?

Well, I get this is that the big box that just opened?

And so it's worth talking about.

I think it is.

And I think that's the ultimate form of masterful coregulation.

Oh that's cool, And.

So I think what's interesting, you know, is in friendships and relationships.

So you know, I have I have different friends for different purposes, you know, like like and you know when I one of the things that I find difficult just to be since we're talking frankly here, you know, is that I've been blessed in my career.

I feel very lucky to have like the ability to write a book and write two books and you know, run around talking about it and lead a center at the university.

But not everybody's happy for me, you know.

And I know a lot of people socially that you know, in the society that like right now would like to like take me down really really, Oh there's there is either there's like in people I'm sure have experienced.

It's people who envy you or people who just think, like what you do is like not the right thing.

I'm brainwashing people.

There's such a force for good, mark.

You know, but some people think I'm a social engineer.

That recurred to me.

Yeah, But my point about that is especially in close relationships mm hmm, like if you can have an honest conversation, I mean I think just that's my brain is going in terms of like romantic relationships now, like some people's couples ships like fall apart because the sex is not as good as it used to be, you know, the you can't share, you know, the news that you feel you know you want to share about maybe you're whatever, something positive happened, but you feel like if you talk about that too much, your partners can feel bad about themselves because they haven't achieved their thing.

And I think if we can't find ways to have open communication with people around the feelings that we're having, Like if I have a close, like a really good friend who you know, I had a really close friend when my father died, she called my assistant and she said, I need you to go into Mark's office and tell him I love him.

Now I thought that was weird.

I'm like, this is a friend of mine for like thirty years, you're calling my assistant to tell her to tell me that you love me.

Like and so, because of my relationship with a person, because I was comfortable, you know, in terms of how I could communicate it, I just picked up the phone and I said, hey, blank, blank, you know, like you got to be kidding me, you know, Like, and she's like, I just didn't want to bother you.

I figured that you're in the height of the moment with your father just passing.

I don't want to.

I just want you to know that I cared, and I said, you know me better than that, like, come on, we are close enough that you could just say, like put Mark on the phone.

Yeah, And she's like, you know, you're right, and she was with my own insecurity.

I just didn't know what to say to you at that moment.

I was felt safer and more comfortable, and I said, understandable.

But I think the point of this kind of when I'm sharing with you is that the coregulation piece is not about you in this scenario where my father has died and I'm feeling lost.

It's about getting out of your own comfort zone to understand and figure out what are the what are the needs of the other person, and how can I be most supportive to them, not necessarily what's most comfortable for you in that moment.

I think that it's really valuable to think that through before you open your mouth about something.

Is it going to be worth it?

Yeah?

You know if I and I know i' that was really sensible.

You know, you talk a lot about being in alignment with your best self.

And that was my favorite chapter was the best self chapter was my response true to my best self.

Did it help me achieve my relationship goals?

Or do I need more practice with the strategy?

Perhaps I need to replace the strategy with a more helpful one.

Yeah, and.

Man like, if you're constantly, if you're constantly getting in touch with that, I can see really good things happening in your life.

I think there's a certain level of mindfulness required to do that so you don't get called in kind of this automatic mode, right.

There is and I think this is why you know.

Just what happened in terms of this book was that the pandemic hit, as we all know, and I thought, Mark, like we have like you have the feelings mentor you know you're going to be great at this.

And I did terrible for the first few months.

I got really overwhelmed scared, which is justifiable.

Right.

It was a weird moment.

My relationship suffered.

I started eating really unhealthy, I stopped exercising.

I was kind of like, ah, and.

Then people were like I had guys calling me saying like I can't I can't believe I have to work from home on my my kid's tech coordinator.

I'm my Now, I'm like with my wife all day long, I'm you know, I'm not used to that.

I'm with my partner with you know, like people just became people really lost it.

And then I started doing all this research on like, well, what would you have hope to have known how to do?

And that's kind of where this book came from.

And what I realized in terms of emotion regulation is that, you know, we tend to think of it as like one thing, you take a deep breath, but like, you know, I could take a deep breath and then I have even more clarity why I hate you?

Right, and so like it's a.

Necessary but insufficient strategy, and so I think we get caught up in like everybody takes a deep breath, and yes, breathing helps, but it's not it's not the be all, end all.

And then there's cognitive strategies, but sometimes I can I try and Mark take the high road.

Mark take the high road, and I don't take the high road.

Then there's relationship strategies.

There's you know, being with people that lift you up, helping you know, having a sounding board, like can you just give me some thoughts or ideas about this, But then there's a whole bunch of other stuff, like you know, I call your emotion regulation budget, which is you know, your sleep, your nutrition, and your physical activity, because that's more preventative.

I know that, I know that when I don't get a good night's sleep, I'm more irritable in the morning.

When I do this activity, my all my neurochemicals are different and I'm a kinder, easier person.

You know, it just is what it is.

And so my point of telling you all this is that and obviously you have to kind of get into the depths of how to do all these things which you can learn about, but like they're all needed and sometimes you use all of them to do with one emotion.

Right, So at the airport when the flight attendant, you know, the person on the intercom says, like, we thought we were going to take off tonight, but we're not.

Sorry everybody, And you want to go like become a lunatic.

First you take a deep breath, then you make a phone call.

I'm going to miss the talk.

Then I'm supposed to give tomorrow, and you then you're like, I can't believe this.

This is my reputation mistake.

And then you call someone else to say, like, what do you think I should do?

Should I try to do it virtually?

Do I just whatever?

And then you need to make a plan like where am I staying tonight?

And then when your way to the hotel room, you start yelling at yourself and you say, Mark, like, this is your life right now.

Look, you're gonna go watch you can get to watch TV tonight, you know.

And it's like a whole bunch of stuff you've done to deal with the procation or the anger.

Does that make sense?

Yeah?

Oh yeah, yeah, it totally makes sense.

I mean, your your book has so many great strategies for dealing with that kind of stuff.

And not only that, but just being mindful of this gap you have between where you are now and your best self and where you want to be.

You have these fill in the blanks which I really like.

I want to see myself with someone who is I want other people to know me as someone who's what is your role?

A lot of that speaks to the value of identity.

And I know that was your point when you were talking about the Master, the emotion Master, even though you hated it.

It was still something nice you said about having that as part of your identity, and I really, you know, I want that to be part of my identity too.

It's like someone who can emotionally regulate, you know, and can almost, I want to say, handle any situation.

My worst fear happened a couple months ago before I moved back to New York.

Every single day in my building in Santa Monica, my my I would fear getting stuck in the elevator.

It's a really tiny elevator.

And I would even like time I have to stop watch and I would time it going up and down until I know that was fine.

Everything was fine, you know, ten seconds, I know I'll be out, you know.

And the day before I moved back, I walk in the elevator.

It closes and doesn't move, and I'm like, are you kidding me?

I was like, are you kidding me?

The day before, you know, this is like my worst fear, and uh yeah, I surprisingly was calm, like, I mean, I didn't see that coming.

But sometimes sometimes you really don't know just how how much you can handle something until you actually.

Were experience capable.

I think then most people think we are yeah, but you're bringing up in a good point, which is that if you have, you know, if you're nervous about, for example, getting the elevator because you think it might break down, or let's say you're in public speaking challenge or whatever it could be you're nervous about if you're a teacher going into the meeting with the parent who's going to like be rate you for their kids bad grades, or a colleague who's got to go give a kid another colleague feedback.

There's a lot of that we can do to be prepared for that.

Yeah, you know, it's like kind of the if then work.

You know, how am I going to feel when I'm in that meeting with my You know, I remember years ago I had to give someone very difficult feedback about the quality of their writing, you know, as a professor, Right, this is what you know, I remember writing all those papers.

You had an advisor, right, that was probably particular or you know or not.

I have.

I'm pretty particular, especially around like grammar, Like it really drives me, like you're getting a PhD and like just grammatical mistakes.

You got to be kidding me.

So how do you show kindness there?

Mark?

Well, it's tough.

I take my breath, so you so you see my point earlier?

No, but I do.

I don't you know.

I could take the red pen and be like this is a piece of crap and this is the worst thing I've ever read, and you should go get a job, you know, blah blah blah, and like like I'm going to feel like crap afterwards.

They're going to hate me.

They're going to go get a job somewhere and tell everybody that was a jerk.

Like I don't want that, And so how can I be like show my disappointment and frustration a way that motivates the person to want to work harder and be more careful.

I think that's that's why we're in this profession as psychologist, to help people, not to make people feel worse about themselves.

And I think you do need to give people a wake up call.

And I have been there.

Yeah, But so how do you do it?

Don't leave us on the edge of our seed?

How did you What I.

Would say, and I can tell you you know, is that you know, I read your paper and I have to say I was just really disappointed.

There were quite a lot of typos and a lot of grammatical mistakes.

And I'm not sure if you were in a rush.

I'm not sure if it's just something that you're not picking.

Up on you run drugs, but it's possible.

Who knows, But it's just not acceptable, Like you have to realize that you know, this is you know, we're trying to publish these papers in top tier journals and you know the expectation is that you do you need someone to prove read before you hand it in to me to review whatever you need to do.

It's going to be important for you moving forward to make sure that this is written in a way that is, you know, with a few typos and grammatical errors as possible.

And that's kind because you didn't.

Why is that kind?

It's kind because you didn't and throw them out.

You still gave them a second chance.

You still showed them that they have redemption qualities.

You know.

It's a great it's like kind of giving people.

It's like, you know, instilling a growth mindset in their writing skilled.

Right right, because you you're like, I know you can do better.

You know, or I'm hopeful you can do better.

I don't know necessarily, but I have a feeling that something went wrong in this draft.

For the love of God, I hope you do better exactly, for the love of your career.

But Mark, what if they do it like five more times?

I mean, is there enough?

Then?

Then does that's honesty too?

You've gotten this feedback multiple times.

It's clear there's you know, something missing and unfortunately your brain half your brain, what's that half your brain might be missing?

See, that's where you don't go.

You just know that that one be kind, that one be kind you know, right, might not be your strength.

Area ray might not be your strength.

This might not And unfortunately that's like the bulk of what this is what we're doing here.

But you say, I'm going to quote you.

You say, you don't need to say what's on your mind.

It's not going to have a positive effect.

You want this person to be on your side.

You don't want to alienate him or put him on the defensive.

How do you want this moment to turn out?

Your best self needs to step up and make that happen.

This is a very common theme in your book.

It's not just about individual self regulation, but so much of your book is about well in a way, it's regulating yourself in a way that helps regulate others.

Yeah, to have an optimal social outcome, it is, and I think people need scripts for that.

And that's one of what I did in this book which I haven't done before, which is I would have a call like a friend of mine's going through a divorce and it's like, I'm freaking out, and I think I want to go back to my husband because you know, I'd rather be miserable but with somebody than alone, and like blah blah blah blah blah.

And instead of saying like you got to be freaking kidding me, like you're going to go back to that, like do you remember what you talked to me about like three months ago in which you hated this relationship, instead I would say things like I'm curious what's going on right now for you that makes you want to do that?

Or I would say things like can you just remind me about why you decided not to stay with this person?

And the would go on and on, and I'd be like, wow, like that's a lot.

Do you know what are you thinking now?

Oh my god, thank you for making me do that, because why the hell would I want to go back to that?

And so it's like helping the person discover for themselves as opposed to being the.

No or the teller.

Oh, I like that.

That's like being a good coach.

It is a coach.

It's coaching.

Yea, yeah, that's what it is.

That's is But I think people need Like people don't know.

Parents don't know how to do that.

A lot partners don't know how to do it.

And I felt the need to really like I would even ask permission for a few people.

Do you mind if I record this?

Because it's like hard you remember all the little nuances and the way you in the ways that you kind of like go back and forth with people.

But and the point is that it you know, it's effortful, like I said, but the end result is that it builds trust that build a healthy relationship as opposed to alienate someone you know.

Et cetera.

For sure, it's in line with my own definition of healthy authenticity as yeah, say, you know, saying saying things, acting in integrity and ways that show growth of relationships and your whole self.

That's a rough, rough, rough summary of how I define healthy authenticity.

But I definitely, yeah, it's definitely, And your book is very much in line with you know, my main recent book, Rise Above, and the ideas of overcoming a victim mindset and empowering yourself.

I agree.

I think that part of it, you know, is a lot of you know, when I interviewed you about your book and when we talked about it is I was just actually in London giving a speech and one of the first questions that someone came up to me about was about trauma, you know, and adverse child experiences and you know, what do you do in terms of that and regulation?

And you know, I said, the goal in life is to grow, not to be stuck.

And so if someone is constantly reminding themselves about their abuse or their trauma, but not seeking alternative ways to think about their lives and grow, like, from my perspective, that is the most unhelpful thing.

And I think it's our obligation to help people grow out of those experiences as opposed to live in them their whole lives.

Now, as you know, I was sexually abused as a kid for five years.

I know what it's like to be traumatized and to have memories of horrific things happening to you.

But I chose, you know, and it's taking me a lifetime.

But I don't identify as a victim.

I don't I don't even identify as someone who had terrible experiences, who has learned from those experiences, and who will do everything you can to not you know, to help people develop the skills they need to never get themselves into that position, or to have the courage to talk about it, etc.

And to me, that's really the only way.

To go beautiful.

Well, I found your book so masterful, and I'm glad you wrote a book for adults, so thank you, thank you for you know, you could have kept written about children and the rest of your life.

And then I'm like, how's this helping me?

And you've helped so many adults with this book, and you still do have a chapter on children, couple chapters.

So let me end with this great quote from your book.

You say, virtually everything that has ever happened in your life, good, bad, happy, sad, frustrating, satisfying, julious, discouraging, depressing, was influenced by how you responded to your emotions, how you dealt with your feelings.

Congratulations on truly masterful book and how to deal with your feelings?

A book that I will return again and again, and I will be teaching in my course in the fall.

I've seen some things I want to put in some of my lectures, So thank you so much, Mark, Professor, Professor, doctor doctor Brackett.

And yeah, I wish you all the best in the book tour.

All right, Thanks Scott,