Shae Hill: Hi, friend. Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so glad you're joining me today for this special summer mini series on red flags. In this episode, Lysa, Jim, and Joel will cover questions like, is every red flag a big deal? And, how is this red flag actually impacting me? But before we dive in, I have a few things that I wanna wanna share with you First, you know we are all about equipping you with resources to help you even after an episode ends So for this mini series, make sure you download a free resource by Lysa TerKeurst titled, “Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships.” This resource will help you get honest about the effects unhealthy relational dynamics are having on you with a guided list to process through so you can tend to your own emotional well-being in a biblical way Next, I thought it would be fun to share this review from one of you guys. Here's what this listener said. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You are changing lives. Guys, isn't that awesome? We love hearing how therapy and theology is making a difference in your life, and we'd love to hear your story too. So just leave a rating and a written review, and maybe I'll share it in an upcoming episode. Or you can even leave us a voice memo or a specific question by following the link to our listener mail in the show notes below. Lastly, we'd be so appreciative if you'd partner with Proverbs 31 Ministries financially to continue making the life changing content on the therapy and theology podcast. Simply go to proverbs31.org/give to make a one time donation, or you can even partner with us monthly. Now onto the show. Lysa TerKeurst: Welcome to Therapy and Theology. I'm Lysa TerKeurst. This is Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle. Really, you guys just don't even need introductions at this point. Right? I could just say this is our friend, Jim, our friend, Joel. We've been doing a very interesting look at trust in relationships. I've just written a book called “I Want to Trust You, but I Don't.” And I think it's important for us to understand, like we covered in the first session, what is trust in a relationship? And when I looked at the two important factors, balance. And then we also consider that trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. But what do we do when we're in a relationship and we start to get this whoa ick feeling that something's wrong. I don't feel safe. I feel like the connection is disintegrating a bit. I am worried that I can't trust you, but I'm not exactly sure why. So we wanna examine these roots of distrust that may exist in a current relationship you have. But, also, these same roots of distrust can serve as red flags to consider when looking at potential relationships. Jim Cress: Hey. Can you acknowledge the fourth member of Therapy and Theology? Lysa TerKeurst: I was just about to add – Jim Cress: Jesus Christ. I'm teeing it up because I am fascinated by this, my friend. Lysa TerKeurst: Well, if you hear a lot of God's power being demonstrated outside. It's because we are currently in a pretty impressive thunderstorm. Jim Cress: And with the red flag thing, like, God is literally speaking for me through these recordings is to say, I wanna peek out the window. There, for us at least, we heard it just thunder, and I think, is this tornadic? We're safe, all that. But the idea, these are like red flags going off. These are like things going on and, like, ah, it's just whatever. Or do I begin to check things out? Often, God is allowing signs to come along. There's there are these spectrums that we're trying to say is that this is a great thing for weather. Is this tornadic? No. Is it just this? Is it light rainfall? But without checking your weather forecast, let me see what's really happening here, one can't really know. Right? Lysa TerKeurst: Jim, that was so brilliant. You just did that on the fly. Jim Cress: Yeah. Well, of course. Lysa TerKeurst: I am so impressed. Joel Muddamalle: He just said, tornadic, which I've never heard before. Lysa TerKeurst: And so now I'm like super tornado like ish. It might happen. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Jim Cress: Chat GPT will give you everything you need. Lysa TerKeurst: Oh, no. Joel Muddamalle: I don't need chat GPT when I got chat Jim Cress. Lysa TerKeurst: That that's a whole whole subject matter for a different day. Jim Cress: This is a different story. Lysa TerKeurst: Alright. So we have already covered some of the red flags that I talk about in my book. I wanna trust you, but I don't. I identify 11. We went through six in our previous episode. Those were incongruity, insincerity, self centeredness, immaturity, immorality, incompetence. There are more, but those are the ones that we started off with. So now that we've identified some of the red flags roots of distrust, I wanna talk about some spectrums. You know, when we're talking about medical issues or even emotional issues or other kind of issues where there's this end of the spectrum that's pretty severe, this end of the spectrum that maybe is inconvenient or disappointing or it's present, but it's not super concerning. Right? So there's this spectrum. I wanna cover the spectrums when it talks about red flags or when we're having this discussion on red flags. It's important to identify the red flags like we've already done, but it's equally as crucial to assess how serious are these. How big of a deal is this? I'm sensing insincerity. How big of a deal is this? But I also wanna add how big of a deal is this to me in the context of our relationship? How important is this to you in the context of our relationship? So let's jump right in. Are you ready? Jim Cress: I'm ready to go. Lysa TerKeurst: The first one, spectrum of severity. How critical is this? So when we look at severity, this is major problematic. Like life altering. Right? All the way to this is kind of inconvenient. It's not necessarily that I like it. It's disappointing that it exists. It's not gonna it's not gonna destroy the relationship. Right? So those are opposite ends of the spectrum. Jim Cress: And everything in between. Right? Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. Jim Cress: We use spectrums in counseling in groups I lead, and we'll say, you know, fear spectrum, you're totally scared to death over here. You're pretty cool. And and then we always say everything in between the people go, they line up and go, that's kinda where this is. So everything in between. Lysa TerKeurst: And we have to remember relationship dysfunction, relationship trauma, however you wanna phrase it, according to how serious it is to you or to the relationship. Every trauma is fact and impact. We've talked about that before here on Therapy and Theology. Here's the fact of what happened. But often the severity is going to be found not just in the facts of what happened, but in the impact. What did this do to you? How does it affect you? How serious is this continuing to affect you? So as you look at spectrum of severity, I think we have to assess what impact is this having on me. I was reading a scripture the other day, and this would be severity on the most serious side. It's from Psalm 36:1, and it continues on through verse four. I have a message from God in my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked. There is no fear of God before their eyes. In their own eyes, they flatter themselves too much to detect or hate their sin. The words of their mouths are wicked and deceitful. They fail to act wisely or do good. Even on their beds, they plot evil. They commit themselves to a sinful course and do not reject what is wrong. Whoo. Jim Cress: They're busy. Lysa TerKeurst: That's pretty severe. Right? Jim Cress: Did you plan that? Lysa TerKeurst: If you hear thunder Jim Cress: Welcome to Therapy and Theology, God. Lysa TerKeurst: So you can see, like, wow. Dealing with a person that it they're demonstrating these kinds of red flags. I mean, that that is severe on this end of the spectrum. All the way to this end of the spectrum. Like, yeah, I notice it. Yeah. I don't like it, but it's not having that much of an impact on me. I don't know if either of you guys want to comment on spectrum of severity. I Jim Cress: like the the comment I have just experienced, like, listening to it here in in this Psalm is I'm like, wow. The it's like I kept hearing as you read that, it literally kept moving on this spectrum of severity. Like, it to me kept getting more. If I never heard that verse before that passage, more severe, more severe. And I'm thinking as a therapist, more neurochemical wiring and neuro pathways of the brain, Aristotle again, we are what we repeatedly do. I'm like, after a while, I'm like, wow, you're gonna be so over here almost to the point of no return. Like, no self awareness thus in self deception. I heard the fact of it, but I heard the progression. Like, you're just running right down, to to the very bottom of this where maybe pass the point of no return. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. It looks like in Psalm 36, it's like they there is no fear of God before their eyes. So that is where, you know, the wisdom wisdom starts with the fear of God. And so there is no wisdom and then there's no self awareness. It's all self centeredness. It comes out in the words they speak. It comes out in their actions. It comes out in their intentions. And then it goes all the way to the fact where they're not just doing wrong things or sinful behaviors, but they are actually plotting evil and committing themselves to a course that is sinful, all the way to the point where they don't even reject what is wrong. So when talking about severity I mean, severity, this this is like -- Jim Cress: This is tornadic or hurt. It's just terrible. Joel Muddamalle: There does seem to be a direct connection too with the severity of which we have a honest, awe, reverential fear of God with the severity of its absence in our lives. Right? So to have, I'm reading from CSB here, kinda like what they do with the translation of the Hebrew word, to have this dread, to have a trembling, to have this awareness that just like right now, if we were not inside of this room and we were outside and we heard that thunder and that lightning and we felt the severity of the rain on our heads, it would cause action. Right? Like, we're not just gonna be like, automatically. We automatically. Jim Cress: We get in get into shelter. Joel Muddamalle: That's exactly right. And so what actually happens here, happening through Psalm 36, is there's a self deception that's happening because they have flattered themselves with their own opinions. And so there is a direct connection to the severity of which they are to the extreme flattering themselves and dishonoring, the grandeur of God that is gonna be absolutely destructive in their lives. Lysa TerKeurst: So, again, when thinking of the spectrum of severity, think about not just the facts of what they're doing, but the impact this is having on you. Alright. Next spectrum is spectrum of occurrence. How often is this happening? Is it happening all the time? Is it happening sometimes? Is it happening occasionally? Is it happening but not very often? Because the spectrum of occurrence also factors into how severe this is impacting you. Would you agree, Jim? Jim Cress: Yeah. I would. And I think that from both sides of me, if I'm if I'm the person going down the spectrum myself, then I'm like, I I I fear that I'm it's occurring so many times, I literally will be unaware. It's like, well, this is becomes my norm off of what we call rituals. If I'm in if somebody's in relationship with me and they see that, after a while, what goes on for that person? Like, this is the hundredth time they've done. This is the thirtieth time they've done it. Where am I where am I in my story when I see this per they've done it a bunch. Now this is a pattern. This is not just well they had a bad day. What goes on in me because what I tolerate persists. I'm always gonna think story. Right? Where am I if it's hysterical, it's historical in my story that I've seen a bunch of this person do the same pattern, and I keep kinda cosigning it. So where am I? Lysa TerKeurst: So let's make it specific. Let's say that it is an issue where they're lying. They're not telling the truth. So, this when talking about severity on this end of the occurrence, it's like they stretch the details of stories. You know, they're telling a story and they're kinda caught up in the energy of it, the heightness of it or whatever. So they're stretching details all the way to this and, like, that's full on betrayal. Right? So that's the severity. Now imagine when you combine that with occurrence, like, if they're telling stories and stretching this truth occasionally, that may be something that you're like, well, I wish they wouldn't do that, but the impact on me is not tremendous. It's just an aggravation, you know? And maybe we have a conversation, maybe it gets better, maybe it doesn't, and you gotta consider the ramifications of that. But if it is that they are full on betraying and they're doing it often or even they're stretching the truth in stories, but they're doing it so often that now it feels like they're stretching the truth in every dynamic. Then when you combine those two, the spectrum of severity, the spectrum of occurrence, you start to get a real gauge of what impact this is gonna have on you. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. And the spectrum of occurrence, I wanna read from Colossians 3, said this other day, and it's another one of those viceless, you know, where Paul's talking about, verse five. Therefore, put to death what belongs to your earthly nature. And this list, sexual morality, impurity laws, like, all of these things. And then in verse eight, but now put away all the following anger, wrath, right, all this. But the thing that really caught me and goes directly with what you're saying, Lys, is in verse nine. Paul says, do not lie to one another since you have put off the old self with its practices. Lysa TerKeurst: And I think the key word there Is practices. Jim Cress: No doubt about it. Joel Muddamalle: So the occurrence. So I wanna make this connection theologically. Occurrences don't happen arbitrary and separated from intentionality. At some point in time, there there might be like a randomness to it, but occurrences that happen over and over are no longer just random occurrences, they are practices. And the things that we practice, you and I will produce. And and what Paul is saying here is, this list of things that you're practicing is gonna produce death in your life. So put off that. Put why? And put on in the list of the fruit of the, the virtues of the kingdom of God in verses 12, You know, compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. When we're practicing these things, we're practicing participating in the life of Christ. And so you have the occurrence of it, but that occurrence, we should never disconnect it from the intentionality of the practice and what it's actually producing. Jim Cress: Can I speak to that real quick? I want people to ponder not I use Colossians 3 in counseling on a daily basis. To ponder not being in neutral. The Puritans called it mortify and vivify. Joel Muddamalle: John Owen, be killing sinners. Jim Cress: Kill kill the deeds of the flesh and then everybody stops behavioral mod. I get it. But vivify, vivacious, give life to what's most alive in you as a Christian. So a person can do sin management and stop in these spectrums, including of severity and occurrence, and stop doing the sin. Just kinda white knuckling it or a a or recovery people, no dry drinking it. Like, oh, they stopped doing this. I stop and say, that's neutral. Are they putting on? Are they vivifying? Are they giving life to what's alive? And problem, if they don't have Christ in them and they're not aware of it or even walking in some of Christ's truth, whatever you wanna call it, they're not gonna put on these latter parts of Joel just read. And that's a sign back to red flags, whatever. I observe and say, I don't see these little the other part of Colossians 3 coming on. That's information for me in a relationship of any type, and I go, I wanna make a note of that. Lysa TerKeurst: So back to our practical example, lying. Alright. So we've considered the spectrum of severity. How severe is it? Stretching details on one end of the spectrum all the way to full on betrayal and lying about incredibly important things. So you can see the spectrum of severity, how often is it happening, spectrum of occurrence. So I used to stop there. I used to say, okay. Those are the two spectrums that I want you to remember. And for the sake of analyzing, if you wanna start there, I think that's great. Jim Cress: Yeah. Sure. Lysa TerKeurst: I wanna continue though with a few other spectrums. The next one is spectrum of risk. How much will this potentially cost you emotionally, financially, mentally, spiritually, physically. So the risk is gonna be higher the more intimacy you share with this person. In other words, if you are in a a very close relationship like a marriage, then the risk financially may be massive to you. If this person is lying about your finances, if they're having secret credit cards, if they are, having secret accounts, if they're using money in ways that if you knew about it, you would be devastated. So you've gotta think about, based on how close of a relationship this is, what are the risk that I'm taking if I choose not to pay attention to this red flag or I choose to overlook this root of distrust? Jim Cress: So I think so much of the which we did this before. We've got actually a number of times. For anyone, any level of, like, sexual infidelity, say, in a marriage. And that idea that is so huge, and you know this, and many people may know this, the severity that goes on of what can happen to one's self physically in the body. We know the book, The Body Keeps the Score, whether that's STDs passed on, something else, or just cortisol levels where you're so stressed. You know the red flags. You see it. It is severe. It occurs a lot, and you're literally you know, just literally hurting and harming yourself by tolerating this. The physical realm gets so broad there when you're with as we're going down through this list of what it does to harm one physically. Lysa TerKeurst: So when talking about fact and impact, of course, we've talked about severity. We've talked about occurrence. But in the spectrum of risk, count the cost. That's really what it is. Count the cost. Like, how much is this really costing me? And, again, financially, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, you know, and on down the line. Joel Muddamalle: And can I just make that encouragement too as you're counting the cost, fight against the tendency to count the cost individualistically? You know? The Bible consistently is less concerned with me, myself, and I, and more concerned with how you are in relationship to the family of God and the people that are around you. Most of the time when Paul is talking about you, you know this, Jim and Lysa. I've said this before, that Paul's, language of you throughout the New Testament is often second person plural, you all, you all, or y'all. And so I do think this, like, risk, like, make it a practice, like, talking about practicing, like, practice I I do this personally. Right? What is the cost associated with one ridiculously silly decision that could derail my entire family, my children? Right? I'm practicing the thought, not in a fearful, horrific, you know, but in an honest way. So that as I'm assessing the risk of that, these things are gonna become the, the guardrails that the Holy Spirit is gonna bring to mind as I think of not just myself because pride is always like, you know, it's just you yourself and and yourself. That's it. It's not gonna mess with anybody else. You're gonna be totally good. When in reality, it's always messing with other people. It's always destructive to the people that you do in life, and they are innocent in so much of this. And so the question is, do you want to, to really participate in that? Lysa TerKeurst: The next one is spectrum of proximity, which goes right along with spectrum of risk because, again, the closer you are to the person, the higher the risk. So that's gonna really give you a spectrum of risk. But the spectrum of proximity means how often is this person interacting with you. Like, how often are you with them? Is this someone you live with and see every day? Is this someone you interact with daily? Or is this just someone you see on occasion? Because that spectrum of proximity is also gonna matter because it feeds right into how much this is going to impact you. Jim Cress: Some people, by the way, get a year's worth of proximity and toxic behavior with people they're around at the holidays. Just that's enough to film yeah. Just one point in time, one period, one gathering, whether it's family or whoever, is enough to fill me up, and I've got enough to deal with in therapy for the next three or four months. Right? So that piece, I like being told about this proximity. People think, well, I'm around them a lot. Well, maybe I'm not around them a lot all the time, but I'm around them intensely for three days. And then after that, that's that's enough for me to deal with for months. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And I think also, like, considering not only proximity of how often am I with them, but also proximity of how what kind of weight did this does this person when they speak to me, what kind of weight do their words have on me? You know? Jim Cress: Even say what kind of weight do I give them, the gravitas of their impact, their words Right. That I may be unaware, but I'm actually giving them the power. Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So it's not just like, okay. We're physically together. But proximity is like, how close is this person? How how much do their words impact me? How much do their actions impact me because of the proximity, the closeness that I have with this person too? The last one is spectrum of tolerance. In this season of your life, how much of this are you willing to tolerate? This scale may look like this. Like, on one end, I am never okay with this. Like, this is a deal breaker. I am never okay with this. In the middle, I can sometimes tolerate this. I would prefer not to, but, you know, I can sometimes tolerate this. And then on the other end of the spectrum, this rarely bothers me. Now what's interesting with different people in different seasons, this will change. Jim Cress: Of course it does. Lysa TerKeurst: So, like, spectrum of tolerance, like, Jim, in your season of life, you may say, this is not that big of a deal. It rarely bothers me. And for me, I might say, oh, no. In this season of my life, the same thing that doesn't really bother you, it is a deal breaker for me. And so I think the spectrum of tolerance considering where you're at, what kind of emotional energy do you have, what kind of physical energy do you have, what kind of, margin and white space do you have? Jim Cress: Margin and white space. I come home and I have three kids, and I gotta which I don't. My margin gets I can't compare to you, which you do have kids. I have grandkids that age, but I don't live with them all the time. So the idea of what's my bandwidth or my margin or whatever else, what is that? Can you just go back? Yeah. Let's just go back to the side. But I have the bandwidth for that. You though, I might say, hey, let's go do something or here's something we wanna do and your bandwidth can be much smaller because of the season time. We all know that. Or if I had sickness going on, I don't have the bandwidth for this much relationship. I think while the community piece is important, how are we all doing in community, it is very individualized for one, you're in charge of your self care to say thank you. And you we've said it a million times, thank you, and I don't have it to give or thank you, and that doesn't work for me, and I don't need to say more. Lysa TerKeurst: Tolerance can be like your exhaustion level. Your tolerance can be affected because of past or present trauma. You know, there's so much that can shift. So that's why I said, spectrum of tolerance, really consider the season of life you're in and how much of this can you tolerate right now. Joel Muddamalle: And I think sometimes one of the things that's challenging as Christians is you might have people that mean so well in your life. Or maybe you have said this stuff to yourself like, well, what about Jesus? Well, Jesus did it or well, doesn't the Bible say and you've got these verses that seem to be like showing this, this unending love and ability and capacity. It's like, well, Jesus for like and I just wanna always point out, we have to be very careful that we don't conflate what is exclusively true of God and his infinite kindness, grace, mercy, and compassion and make that the same expectation of human to human relationships. God doesn't call us to that. Right? And so this question of tolerance, it's actually directly connected with honesty and honest understanding of our human limitations. So that as we are dealing honestly with our limitations, we're actually creating space and room for God to work in spaces that only he can work. And so if I were to flip the thing upside down, it's actually kind of an act of idolatry to think that you can tolerate everything. Because you're trying to do the thing that only God can do. So in this space, it's like, man, accept, like, your limits, know what you can tolerate in the seasons that you can, and then take a step back and leave them in the faithful hands of God. Lysa TerKeurst: So good. Spectrum of severity, spectrum of occurrence, spectrum of risk, spectrum of proximity, spectrum of tolerance. Those are all good considerations as you think about how is this impacting me. Shae Hill: Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to download your free resource title, “Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships.” We've linked it for you in the show notes below. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you know the truth and live the truth because it changes everything.