Shae Hill: Hi, friend. Welcome back to the Therapy and Theology Podcast. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and wherever you're tuning in from today, I'm so glad you're here. Right now, we are in a special summer mini series on red flags, and we're back today to deliver episode two. In this episode, Lysa, Jim, and Joel will talk about six red flags to be aware of. But before we jump in, I have a few things that I wanna tell you. First, you know we are all about equipping you with resources to help you even after an episode ends So for this mini series, make sure you download a free resource by Lysa TerKeurst titled, “Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships.” This resource will help you get honest about the effects unhealthy relational dynamics are having on you with a guided list to process through so you can tend to your own emotional well-being in a biblical way. Next, I thought it would be fun to share this review from one of you guys. Here's what this listener said. I'm so thankful for this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You are changing lives. Guys, isn't that awesome? We love hearing how Therapy and Theology is making a difference in your life, and we'd love to hear your story too. So just leave a rating and a written review, and maybe I'll share it in an upcoming episode. Or you can even leave us a voice memo or a specific question by following the link to our listener mail in the show notes below. Lastly, we'd be so appreciative if you'd partner with Proverbs 31 Ministries financially to continue making the life changing content on the Therapy and Theology podcast. Simply go to proverbs31.org backslash give to make a one time donation, or you can even partner with us monthly. Now onto the show. Lysa TerKeurst: Hi. Welcome back to Therapy and Theology. I'm Lysa TerKeurst with Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle. We had such an interesting conversation in the last episode and, really talking about what's required for trust in a relationship. We really took a deep dive into safety and connection. We made a lot of personal admissions. We had a little therapy session right here at the table. If you missed that episode. You're gonna wanna go back and listen to it. Today, I wanna talk about some relational red flags. In my new book, I wanna trust you, but I don't, I actually unpack 11 red flags. Today, we're only gonna have time to dive into six. So I wanna define them. I wanna talk about them. Let's do some more personal admission around them. Joel Muddamalle: Okay. Jim, this is your turn now. Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Perfect. Joel Muddamalle: So, Jim, you're gonna do the confession on this one. Jim Cress: Okay. Lysa TerKeurst: And the reason that this is important because we're not just talking about red flags in the context of dating. So many times when people hear red flags, it's like, oh, because you're dating. No. Yeah. We wanna talk about red flags that are present often when we get an ick feeling in a relationship. Have you ever been in a situation where you really like this person, but then they do something and you're like – Joel Muddamalle: It's like I really like you, but then you have an Android phone. And I'm like – Lysa TerKeurst: Oh, Joel. Joel Muddamalle: My bad. Sorry. Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. And they do take good pictures. Okay. Whatever. I'm just trying to Pollyanna it a little bit. Okay? Because there's listeners out there that have Android. Okay? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. We don't wanna, like I was studying some Hebrew, and every time every time, we get one of those green bubbles, you know what actually happens? An angel loses its wings. Lysa TerKeurst: Joel. I apologize that we have had this one off situation here in Therapy and Theology. Red flags. Right there. Lysa TerKeurst: This is this is a red flag right here. Red flag. Red flag. And have you ever been in a situation where you get this ick feeling and you're like, something seems off. Right? And you don't really know why, but you walk away going, I'm not sure I can trust that person. And we talked about in the last episode that I don't know if I can trust that person. It's such a big statement. So as we talk about these red flags, these warnings, these little indicators that maybe something is off in the relationship, I also want us to think about it not just preventatively like in new relationships, but we can use these red flags in the context of why there's distrust or where is the distrust coming from and how severe is it in my existing relationships. Okay. So let's start with red flag number one, incongruity. And the way I defined incongruity is this person wants people to perceive them one way, but then they act in a completely different way. Their words don't match how they actually live on a day to day basis. In other words, their insides don't match their outsides. Joel Muddamalle: Outsides. Yeah. That's a good one. I think of the, the brilliant ancient languages scholar, Eugene Peterson, who was the translator paraphraser of the message. And he's got an incredible book called, Long Obedience in the Same Direction. And in it, he really talks about this concept of incongruity. And the way he frames it is, you know, that what is inside of us is true of what is outside of us. And when there is an incongruity, when there is a tension between what is inside and out, our body and our soul and our heart longs for that tension to be resolved. And so then the question is, how does that get resolved? What wins out in the resolving? The thing that is true and godly or the thing that is sinful and the thing that is actually destructive to your humanity? And so this incongruity one is a significant one biblically because this is the issue that God is trying to communicate to the people of Israel throughout the entire Old Testament. You are a chosen holy people. You are a holy, like, priestly royal, priesthood. Like, you're set apart for a purpose. But if there's an incongruent incongruency of who you are and what you're doing, then that's a significant issue. Lysa TerKeurst: I like to think of it as just in my own personal life. Like, am I being mastered by my desire, or am I being mastered by the spirit of God in me? And, you know, that sounds like, oh, that's really big. But it's basically what Paul says. Am I living according to the flesh, or am I living according to the spirit? Right? Joel Muddamalle: Yep. Galatians 5. Lysa TerKeurst: And Paul also very much says, why is it that I sometimes do the very thing I don't wanna do? Right? And so it's it's not that this person has mistakes that happen. We all make mistakes. We all sometimes choose a personal desire over the the spirit of God or the word of God. You know, we we are all sinners. We all fall short. Right? But I think the secret is with the incongruity is, is this a pattern, not just a mistake, but is this a pattern that they refuse to acknowledge or be repentant from? And that's where it's almost like their operating system is, I'm gonna say this because it'll paint a picture that I want people to to believe about me. But in the inside or, like, people who live with me behind closed doors are experiencing this. Right. And so I and and and that person sees no need to change. They see no need to work on this. I don't know what your thoughts are. Jim Cress: They might enjoy you getting activated or dysregulated. They might enjoy that that you're believing at the poker table of life their bluff. So if I'm going down the road and I see a nice billboard, right, of a restaurant, I go, wow, that looks good. They might be electronically flashing the the pictures of the food. Then I get in the restaurant. And so there's their marketing. Right? And the marketing's on the, on the menu. My friend and mutual friend, that you knew, in heaven, Bill Lokey, he was a professional photographer for a long time, and he taught me one time. He showed me how they enhance even any of your favorite hamburger joints. They enhance it with all kinds of you wouldn't believe to make it look like that. I'm like, if you're gonna tell me all that, I'd rather you let me let me get to the food and let me taste. I'm not gonna find out in one meal. I see the billboard. I see the menu. Wow. This is what this is your your Madison Avenue. This is your marketing. This is who I am, and don't you see? You're kinda selling me at that moment. In that moment, I go, I gotta taste the food. And any of us have ever had one time where you thought, the food I just ate, incongruent, does not match the picture or just the presentation coming off the counter, that sandwich looked like this or fancy, and it's smashed down. So if I give it a little bit of time to go, this and and listen to my gut. That's a good word to go. This not this is you're saying all this, but something's off. Then I can explore contemptively inside myself to go with contemplation what's in me where I don't trust what's going on? Most person people like that, they're gonna show you something that's fake, incongruent. One time, they'll do it twice, third time. So how many times does it take for you to go, now this lines up. This is a pattern with this person. I think a lot of this trust building takes some time. Maybe they're having a one off bad day, but that person will show you a mirage a couple or two, three times, and it's up to you to go, I see what I see. Lysa TerKeurst: I think you just made a good point. Like, we have to also be willing to acknowledge I see what I see. I'm experiencing what I'm experiencing. Because sometimes the red flag is not so mysterious. You know, one thing I wrote is this person could present themselves as a spiritual giant who is wise and mature, but they lack restraint. They don't treat people with kindness and patience. They tend to be selfish. They expect to be treated as special. They think they're superior to others, or they believe the rules apply to others but not to them. Those actions are not very mysterious. Like, those are pretty clear, pretty obvious. The secret is you have to be honest about what you see and what you're experiencing, not in a judgy way, not in a shaming way, not in a condemning way, but just in a way of, like, I'm gonna say exactly what this is. That is incongruent with the picture that they paint. Jim Cress: Yeah. Let me just add to that, which is gonna be common sense. But remember, common sense is not always common practice. That's a big deal. I will see that and say there's an incongruency here. And I talk about grief a lot. Why grief? Because inside, doggone it. If I really do this and say or to call out Joel or any person as a friend and say, hey. This isn't matching up here. I'm not okay with what you're saying here. I've seen it, like, twice or three times here. Right? Then at that moment, I have to be aware, self awareness, and say, what might this cost me? Joel might say, fine with you then. I'll just dial back and go and have another friendship over here. Not obsessively, but I want people to be mindful to say, if I have a boundary, I say or I just call it out. Speak it kindly. Ephesians 4:15, speaking the truth in love, and say, I'm not okay with this, or this doesn't match up. That person may try to seduce me back in, oh, no, no, and gaslight me, or they may just dial it back and stonewall me and just peace out, and then I've lost a friendship. I've watched so many people go, but, Jimbo, if I do the boundaries, or if I call out and say, hey, I'm not okay with this, I don't feel safe, I'll lose the relationship. That's their individual work to do. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. And there's a consequence to the incongruent. Jim Cress: Always. Joel Muddamalle: Right? So it's like you see the burger and you feel let down. And then you go, that feeling of being let down is gonna lead you to an action. Either you accept it and you just keep living the delusion or -- And so I do think that even with this, it's like when that person presents that and shows that to you, there's a real danger of acknowledging it but then not doing anything as a result of it. And so what does that count towards? That feeling of being let down is an indication of the tension that of what the expectation or what was presented to you as true, but now you're experiencing the falseness of what that is. Lysa TerKeurst: And when you say not doing something, I think it's important to fully acknowledge, like, doing something doesn't mean that we're gonna be able to get that person to change. Doing something is more how are we going to respond to it. And what's the responsible thing? What's the godly thing? What's the reasonable thing? What do I have to give in this situation? What do I not have to give in this situation? Jim Cress: And how I can you already used the word. How I can learn in that level. Watch. We all can do it. Takes a little work, practice. I wanna learn how to respond, not react. Because reaction is redoing an action from my past. How many times we've said if it's hysterical, it's historical? I ground myself with a breath, feel myself, and go, I know what's happening right here. That's called self talk. You can do it. And then say, no. If you push back or whatever, I will actually respond to you from the adult place, even from the neo prefrontal cortex, not reaction like, well, I can I can be grounded? That person, if they're manipulator, after they see two or three times you stay grounded in truth, I find most of those people move on. It's not you don't have to draw one boundary and they go, zippity doo. This is great. They'll test it. Their job is to push and say, no. You don't know what you're talking about. You have some of that in your story. Some of the best conversations not going there now, but happened, you know, in between shows here. And we're like, yeah. That's like someone says, no. That's not real. It's like, no. This is real. Lysa TerKeurst: Alright. Red flag number two. I want to go to insincerity. An insincere person will tell you something they think you wanna hear, but they actually don't mean it. You get an uneasy feeling when they compliment you or half heartedly make plans with you. You often question whether they're sincere because after being with them, you tilt your head and you think to yourself, did they really mean that, or did they just put on a show to make themselves appear nice, caring, and interested? Here's a couple of examples of insincerity. They say something nice just to end an argument because they cannot handle confrontation. Or they're bettering you up in an effort to appease you because they're secretly hiding something. Another example is they say they really care about you, but call or text only when they need something from you. Jim Cress: You ever found that one out? Lysa TerKeurst: You know the one that steps on my toes with this one is, like, they say that they're, like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get together for lunch. Okay. Confession time. I'll do that because sometimes it just feels like the nice thing to do. Does that really make me an insincere person? Lysa TerKeurst: Is integrity one of these red flags? Lysa TerKeurst: We’ll get to that. Jim Cress: Here's why. If that happens, I'm going off camera to get this, so don't be mad at me, people. But I tell people all the time, if you're there and someone says, let's do lunch. If phones don't come out immediately and you schedule it, that is male bovine manure. That's bullcrap. I mean, that's just not right. Right? It's just true. If phones it. Let's get it. I miss this call. Like, come on. Yeah. So in that moment, people, oh, man. And their voice watch everybody, your voice will pitch up. Let's do lunch. Yeah, man. What up, dog? Let's do and it's like our phone's coming out and saying, when can we do that? That's a very simple thing. Lysa TerKeurst: See see how we get therapy right there? Not sometimes on the words we should use and should not use, but that's really good. You know? So insincerity, I think there's different levels of insincerity. It's like, you know, there's the level of, like, what I just gave the example of. Like, my desire is to get together with this person. The reality of my time may not allow for that. But I should go ahead and just be honest. My heart says, yes. The reality of my time right now makes this a no. Please don't see this as an indication that I don't value you or value our friendship in this season. I just need to be honest about with where I'm at. Okay. So that's a sincere statement accomplishing the same thing. Yeah. Yes. And sincere be like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I sometimes I'll do this just because I don't wanna hurt the other person's feelings. I wind up hurting them more. Ago. Right. But then there's there's the whole other level of, like, this other one that you feel utterly exhausted when you're with them because of all the mental gymnastics involved in trying to discern their true intentions. Jim Cress: That could be an energy vampire. We call them that. Just like, I am drained. Be a fountain, not a drain in relationships. And it's like, aggh. So what do you do about it? So oftentimes, it's like, okay. I don't trust this person, but why is it? What's the root of that? And sometimes it really is insincerity. Joel Muddamalle: I think insincerity is coming from us, from our perspective. Insincerity is directly connected to the question of our conscience. Right? So our conscience, what do we what do we internally truly believe is true? And then insincerity is then doing an act or participating in an act or condoning an act that is not true of that conscience. I I love what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:12. He says it this way. In in just talking to a church in Corinth and he's talking to, you know, this house church there. Indeed, this is our boast. You're like, oh, we're getting ready for something epic. Paul's talking about boasting. Indeed, this is our boast. Listen to this. The testimony, right, the truth of our lives, the testimony of our conscience is that we have conducted ourselves in the world and especially toward you with godly sincerity and purity, not by human wisdom, but by God's grace. Lysa TerKeurst: So good. What's the scripture reference one more time? Joel Muddamalle: 2 Corinthians 1:12. Lysa TerKeurst: Wonderful. Okay. Let's go on to the third one, self centeredness. Self centeredness, this person only thinks about themselves, or I'll say this person mainly thinks about themselves. This is if the world revolves around them. They don't think about how their words and actions impact other people. They can be thoughtless and rude. But when you address them, they say things like, I'm just being honest, or they accuse you of being too sensitive. They believe they are always right. They want what they want, and they think their needs take precedence over others. So an example of this is in conversation, they keep the discussion focused on themselves and what they're going through. They rarely, if ever if ever check up on you and what you are facing. So sometimes you're in a relationship and you're like, man, I I really like this person. Like, I I like hanging out with them. They're fun. But it just is starting to feel like it's all about them. And I am the giver, and they are the taker. And I just don't trust that they really have my best interest in mind or that they even really care about what's going on inside of me. Jim Cress: Can I throw one out? Okay. And I'm being very serious about this, and and make versions of this if you want. Just because you're over there, my buddy. If we're over there, we're having a conversation. This is one possible tool, but it's not a joke. Joel, if you are waxing eloquent going on and on in a monologue and say, hang on a second. What's it like right now for you being in this conversation with me? Well, I'm getting serious. People like that. It's like, boom. No. Sometimes that's an organic ninja like way to have a person. So, well, I don't know. What do you think? I said, well, let's just think a little bit more. Proverbs 30 verse five 20 verse five. The purpose is in a person's heart or deep waters. And so, you know, what's it like right now, not being in this relationship, what's it like being in this conversation? The more I would know Joel, and we do know each other, I could say, hey, bud. And you know you could say this to me. You could say, are you aware that over the last five minutes you gotta know a little bit. Over the last five minutes, I've not spoken a word? Because I love you so much to help you get self aware. If I come in with a hammer and shaming you, nobody wants that. I'm not gonna do that to a stranger. But there's a ninja thing. Jesus was this incredible ninja in conversations to be able to say, Tell me more. What's going on? He knew all, but the woman there at the well, he knew everything. And finally, deep into the narrative, tell me about your husband. He she kept wanting to talk theology. He was talking heart and and thirst. So he was very just so organic. But I may say, what's it like right now? What's it like being in a conversation? I'm gonna be honest. That's a disruption, an appropriate healthy disruption to go, oh, and a person might stop and I've seen it and go, what's going on? Otherwise, I sit there and what I tolerate, persist and watch and when we think, agape love, if you were just going on and on, I'm not loving you because you're unaware like the emperor's new clothes. And it's like, buddy, I don't wanna see you shame yourself. And then one more person go, I don't wanna be in a relationship with him. Does that make sense? There's a sense I could be organically honest there. Lysa TerKeurst: I think too. I'm sitting here realizing, you know, as we're talking about red flags, things we want to notice that may indicate an off situation in a relationship. We're also talking about these red flags as roots of distrust. If we feel like we can't trust this person, these will give us some handles to examine where are the roots of distrust coming from. Jim you make such a good point. These are also really good things for us to check ourselves in. It's biblical, you know, that we are to examine the log in our own eye before picking at the speck in another's eye. And so just what you're saying, like, as we're having conversations with other people, we don't we wanna make sure to check ourselves. We don't wanna be self centered. Joel Muddamalle: Absolutely. There's a there's a way to read the bible. There are two ways to read the Bible, and I refer to it, big technical terms, anthropocentric, so human centered, or theocentric, God centered. And I think one of the big tactics of the enemy is to, really feed us an anthropocentric way of breathing, which I refer to this as the unholy trinity of me, myself, and I. And one of the great things that the bible is consistently doing think about it. How many times in the Old Testament, particularly in the Psalms, where the Psalms are saying, and lift your eyes. Lift your eyes. Lift your eyes. Well, what is the purpose of lifting your eyes? The purpose of lifting your eyes is moving away from a self centered ethos and living into a God centered ethos and living. And when we're God centered, it's not a negligence or a denial of ourselves. It's a rightly ordered existence. So we see ourselves rightly in relationship with God and with other people. Self centered living honestly does blind you and it actually, you think you're becoming more whole, but you're living isolated and so so detrimental. Lysa TerKeurst: So good. Alright. Number four, immaturity. Immaturity. This person acts childish. They don't think through the consequences of their choices. When they get caught, it's always someone else's fault. When something hurts them or they don't get their way, they have temper tantrums or pouting episodes. Jim Cress: How old do they sound? You know, I have that sign in my office that says, how old would you be if you didn't know how old you were? So even said, you you're literally developmentally going down to temperate change, and that's about two. I have a granddaughter right there at that age and a grandson right about that age. It's interesting to watch them develop. So you're dealing with these things, immaturity. Well, you're kind of immature. Often, actually, deeper than that. They're very, very young. And develop they may be stuck. Wonder what happened to them at age two or three or five. Like, why are you going so young? Lysa TerKeurst: I think you said to me one time, we were talking about why people sometimes do act childish. I mean, we can all do it. Like, if you If you get upset enough, you know, it's like we're sitting here having a conversation, and I'm not gonna pitch a fit. But all of a sudden, like, we get into a heated argument, and all of a sudden, it's like, I throw my papers across the room. The adult Lysa would not do that. But you told me one time, it's like, okay. When something like that happens, go back and examine maybe that's where you had a pretty significant trauma and or an event, and we will often return back to that age. Jim Cress: Time collapses. It's fast. You you're not trying to do it. It's like, all of a sudden, woah. There's a two year old in the room. You know, by the way, never shame somebody. How old are you? Don't do that, but it happens autonomically. And I'm five. And then a great question, even over a cup of coffee to a friend, and FBM therapy, is to go, how old do you feel right now? And then is there anything that do you remember anything that happened to you at age seven? Right? And sometimes I'd be surprised. A lot of people just over a cup of coffee could say, well, no one ever asked me that. I think I feel about four, and here's what happened. I don't know. What happened to me at age four? Jim Cress was sexually abused by older boys. So I can go there. And at that moment, what was started in me was confusion of, I thought this was the right thing to do. They coached me and said it was, and yet I feel what and who and how. Or kids discover porn or and it's not all about that or something that was said to you as a child and you embody that at that age, and you began to run these scripts. We've done a whole podcast on shame scripts. And they begin to run, and they're still across the bottom of the TV screen running right here. The headlines are just running. You don't see them unless you have to look down and go, oh, that's running. False identity. Right? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. There's a whole we could do a whole bonus episode on parenting fails. But as you're talking about this, you know, I've got my boys, are now 12, Liam's almost 13. So 13, 12, and 10. And the the question of the trauma, like, you know, one of the things that Brit, my wife, noticed the other day was me and the boys, we started getting into it. And I I tell I promise you in all honesty and humility, I reverted to Joel's twelve year old self. And I am the dad. I'm the one who's supposed to be and and we're going toe for toe. Right? And I could see myself, like, what's the like, the like, the The digress. Digress. I'm digressing into my 12 year old self, and I am starting to say some mean things to my kids. Jim Cress: What happened at 12? Just one thing. We're just chatting about it. Joel Muddamalle: I mean, you know, it's I I write one of the things I write about in my book, in The Hidden Peace, I talk about how I got made fun of for being, like, one of the only Indian kids in middle school on a basketball court, and they started calling me Hindu. And I'm like, I'm not Hindu. I'm Indian. Jim Cress: I'm Do you see how clear you are, though? Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Jim Cress: I've never been a woman. Don't worry. This is safe. But I know as a dude -- Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you for clarifying that. Jim Cress: Yeah. This is important. Yeah. Because as a dude, don't dismiss. We're wired. I've never I don't know how women feel about that. I mean, I have an idea. But the idea so and that happened with my sons. And with one of them, especially, began to just do what a kid does. He pressed buttons in me and dismissed. It was on me because I was kinda bullied and made fun of as a kid. Yes. But now I'm big. I'm gonna take you out. And so I went, woah, dude. What's going on? But you already cut it. Joel Muddamalle: And there's and there's a weird thing in there even, Jim, where it was almost and I was, like, processing through this with Brit. There was almost like I was reenacting those moments. And you at least you all talk about the curse of the comeback, where it's like, I'm almost like, man, if I was back in that situation, like who I am today and what I know, I could have been on the winning end. Instead of being made fun of all the time, like I, you know, and I'm having this discussion. I'm going there, and I'm realizing, oh my gosh. This immaturity, is happening because of this trigger that happened in my childhood, and this is so antithetical to the Gospel. Jim Cress: You open to a thought? Change the narrative, the first line real quick. I know we got all these things going through. Kind of mercy on our souls here. Take the word almost out. It was almost like I reverted take almost out and say it again. Joel Muddamalle: I reverted. Jim Cress: I reverted. I was 12. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Jim Cress: It happens. If you don't believe that, you've not watched major sports or rush hour traffic. Come on. Lysa TerKeurst: So if we're in a relationship with someone that is consistently demonstrating immature behavior, you can you can start to feel the rub in your trust because it's like, can I really trust this person if they go to this event with me that they're not gonna lose their temper and embarrass me? Or can I trust my sensitive parts of my heart to someone? You know? Or I even wrote this. Can I trust that this person won't be disrespectful of my time because they feel that that their irresponsibility should suddenly become my emergency? And so those will erode trust in a relationship. And when we get to the root of where is this distrust coming from, in these situations, it's immaturity. Okay. The next one's a really big one, immorality. Oh, man. This is someone who lacks a moral compass and disregards the principles of right and wrong. They see no problem with engaging in sinful, illegal, mean, insulting, or vile behavior. They may appear upstanding in some environments while actively participating in a secret double life. These issues seem to be not just causing rips in the trust in a relationship, but full on ruptures. A couple of examples here, they steal money from their parents' home when they visit because they feel like they're entitled to what their parents own or what their parents have earned. They engage in extramarital affairs and addictive porn use, which is destructive to themselves, their spouse, and others around them with no remorse or plans to stop. And that's really an important part of this. No remorse, no plans to stop. They can easily justify lying and cheating to get ahead in their profession. They see their behaviors as necessary to get what they desire, and they feel the need to stay on top. So – Jim Cress: Seen them a lot. Lysa TerKeurst: You know, and it's not like we wanna compare sins and say, this is a big sin. This is a small sin. But these are when you talk about the context of a relationship and a disruption in the trust in a relationship, these are big. Jim Cress: And the bigness of that is, I think we get to I believe we get to right size things. Because even in the scripture, I can think if you lust after a woman, you've committed adultery in your heart. Don't have a bad exegesis there. Jesus didn't say, so therefore go out and cross the flesh line. But what you're talking about is a progressive ramping up, and here's my salient point on this, is Aristotle. We are what we repeatedly do. Their conscious could could sit, could be seared with a hot iron. So as you you brilliantly just stair step that up and after a while, they won't even be fully aware. You're aware that's immoral. This is unfaithful, but they won't be aware. And that's what scares me. It's like, Paul got to the point. He turned such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. You know what? They're gone. They're almost past the point of no return. Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Scary. In the previous episode, I kinda gave the fundamental, foundational, kind of theological principle. For this, quickly, I wanna give that as well. At the bottom of this is a, divergence of desires. There's a divergence of desires. Let me just read what Paul says in Galatians 5:16. I say then, walk by the spirit, and you will certain certainly not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the desire for the flesh desires what is against the spirit, and the spirit desires what is against the flesh. These are opposed to each other so that you don't do what you want. And he goes on to a vice list, sexual morality, moral impurity right. And it's a it's a list that is not exhaustive because at the very end, he goes, and anything like this, I wrote this down and I think this may be helpful. What you and I look to matters because what we long after, we will try to take hold of. But in reality, these things are actually taking hold of us. And so this question of desires are so important. And so you start to see these red flags come up and you see a divergence of relationships. Well, what that might be actually evidence of is a divergence of desires. And we have to be very careful because here we are thinking that, we're gonna take hold of these things and these things are gonna be used by us for our good. But like sexual immorality, like, like addictions of all different kinds, we think we're leveraging these things for our good when in our reality, these things are taking hold of us for our destruction. Jim Cress: And if we're unaware of it in the moment, AA Alcoholics Anonymous has a wonderful statement. The man takes the drink, then the drink takes the man. And that's sobering, man. Lysa TerKeurst: Alright. Last one is incompetence. This person says they're capable of doing something you already know they don't have the training, experience, or track record to carry out. They won't acknowledge their inability until it becomes a problem too big to deny. They try to compensate for their lack of ability by convincing conversations about their progress. But behind the scenes, things are not happening like they should be. Okay. In a funny sense, it's like, no. No. No. No. I can fix this. I don't need to call the plumber. And then the house gets flooded. Right? Jim Cress: Those are real stories, though. Right. From real people who've gone, like, Newsflash. That cost you a lot more in the end than the problem. Lysa TerKeurst: Exactly. Or they volunteer to teach a seminar on a topic they're not well versed in or that they don't live out in their own life. You know? In today's Internet world, it's so easy. I'll just Google some facts. Jim Cress: Well, check GPT it. Now you sit here and you sound like this expert. You just read them off an iPad. Lysa TerKeurst: Yep. And just because you can acquire the knowledge doesn't mean you have the experience to truly be competent in carrying this out. And you can see how this would definitely create a rub in the trust in a relationship. And oftentimes, they promise to take care of an issue. But then when they take care of it, if they remember to take care of it Use of care of they do it in a way that kinda half heartedly checks it off the list, but it's not the real solve. And so you're gonna have to go behind them and do it yourself. I see several people on the camera crew right now giggling because they need Jim Cress: They're under conviction. They know they all do it. Lysa TerKeurst: Not just them. We all do it. We all do it sometimes. Okay. So we have covered a lot today. Jim Cress: We did. We have covered a lot. Red flags. Lysa TerKeurst: Here's what I mainly want you to hear. It's not that we suddenly wanna go out hunting for all that's wrong in our relationships. Right. But when you hit the spot where you're saying, I'm starting to feel like I can't trust this person. Or in a new relationship, I'm not sure if I can trust this person. Hopefully, these red flags will give you handles to have healthy productive conversations to better understand what are the warning signals in a new relationship that maybe we need to reassess how close we get to this person. Or in an established relationship, where are the roots of distrust coming from? I hope you have enjoyed today, not just all the information, but all of the personal confession that once again has happened more to come on Therapy and theology. Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to download your free resource title, “Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships”. We've linked it for you in the show notes below. 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