Hello friends.

My name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break.

The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of stoicism and do my best to break them down to the most important points I pull from ancient wisdom and modern wisdom, psychology, neuroscience, basically anything I can get my hands on that can help you to think better because of you can think better, you can live better.

So this week's episode is going to be a little bit different.

So I have another guest on here.

Uh, Justin, would you pronounce your last name for me so I don't do it incorrectly?

Yeah.

Sunseri.

Sunseri, thank you.

And Justin has written several books on polyvagal theory and other physiological phenomenon that, in that have an impact on our mood.

So I will turn the time over to Justin and let him go ahead and introduce himself a little bit more deeply, and then we'll go from there.

Uh, hey, Justin, Sunseri.

Thank you Erick for, uh, having me on.

Really, really appreciate it.

I've been listening to your podcast for a while and.

Um, yeah, just deeply appreciate this opportunity to talk in more depth about what I'm passionate about and what I know you're passionate about.

Uh, the polyvagal theory is my thing.

It's is it okay if I just kind of get into what it is

Absolutely.

take it.

Okay.

It's, uh, bare bones minimum.

The simplest possible one sentence, uh, description of it is political theory is how, uh, mammals respond to safety and danger.

That's really the simplest, and when my client work, I'm a therapist and coach and, and my client work.

That's really how I start off describing it.

That can get more complicated, but that's, that's the basic, uh, a little bit more complicated is you're aware of like, there's the sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic, and traditionally we've looked at those as if they are at odds with each other, this versus that, or maybe a balance between the two.

But polyvagal theory from Dr.

Steven Porges.

In his research over the past 40 decades or so?

No, actually more than that.

50 60.

Um, yeah, has looked at, he, he discovered that the vagus nerve, which is where the parasympathetic runs through, there's actually two parasympathetic systems, uh, that control, uh, heart rate and come from the brainstem and really run the gamut of the body.

Uh, one of those parasynthetic is for safety and social connection.

And the other one is for life threat, where we collapse and play dead, basically.

And so polyvagal theory, theory shows us that there's three, uh, basic autonomic states that our body can exist in, and that's the safety state, the ventral vagal, parasympathetic, sympathetic, uh, flight fight state, and then the dorsal vagal parasympathetic, which is responsible for.

Uh, shutdown or collapsing.

So we have safety fight, and shutdown collapse.

So those are the three and it, it does get more complicated and there's a mix and match between them.

But that's the basic idea, is that there's, we, we as mammals can exist in one of three basic states, autonomic states.

And these states, matter which one you're in, filters experience of reality.

directly, it's like, the platform from this autonomic platform, which is unconscious and not consciously controlled from this autonomic platform.

Come our thoughts or the flavor of our thoughts, uh, our feelings, our emotions, uh, internal bodily sensations, and, uh, also the impulses, uh, behaviors as well.

So there's.

these different areas of life that think stoics are interested in, but psychologists are interested.

Therapists, researchers, and all of them stem from this state, our, our primary polyvagal or autonomic state.

I think, um, that's what we don't pay attention to.

I know as in my field as therapists, we don't pay attention to that.

But I think if we can get a deeper understanding of that, it really fundamentally would shift how we at our thinking in particular as far as stoicism goes, uh, but also our emotional, uh, connection with ourself.

I think mindfulness is a big part of, or can be a big part of stoicism.

So I think that all of a sudden takes on new value or that's what I've gotten from it personally.

Uh, connection to the present moment.

All of these things shift fundamentally based on state we're in or a potential to utilize these things effectively.

Interesting.

Yeah, so I, I've heard of polyvagal theory before, but I hadn't, I hadn't ever dug into it to see how it's kind of broken out into three different systems.

But I think that definitely makes sense.

Um, especially because, because in stoicism is definitely a, a focus on the mind.

I think that's one of the biggest things for sure.

And a lot of that is because the, for lack of a better term, the technology that they had back then, they didn't understand, you know, all, all of these different systems of the body because there was absolutely no way to map those.

Um, so for you, how do you see what the stoics teach and.

And understanding the power of the mind and how it controls a lot of your thinking.

How do you see them integrated with polyvagal theory?

that's a big question.

Um, alright, let's try and tackle this, uh, you know.

This, this is where my mind, my, my thoughts go to.

I'll, we'll start here and see where it takes us, if that's okay.

Mm-hmm.

What pulled me toward in particular, and I think a couple other kind of, um, life philosophies or ways of thinking is, is that present moment aspect of it.

Um, it's brutal.

Uh, acceptance of the finiteness of life, you know, that appealed to me, like it just spoke to me.

'cause it's so honest.

The there, but there's a deep, there is a mindfulness component to it.

I think it's a big mindfulness component.

When I, most people, my first, my real first like portal to stoicism was, um, the meditations.

I mean, I found like YouTube stuff and I was like, these people, it sounds like it's interesting, but I, I didn't really latch onto it.

And then once I read meditations, it was like, whoa, I've never heard someone talk like, or think like in such brutal terms.

Um, you know, honest, blatant terms.

But there was, there was a really deep component of mindfulness to it.

when he was talking about the, um, the bread, you know, the, the half, like the lying down the bread, the imperfections of the present moment, the wrinkles on someone's face.

I think I was, if I'm getting that correct, but it, it's, it's this like appreciation for the imperfections of the present moment brings to you.

Um, that to me is, I, I, I equate stoicism with that.

Like that's, it's the, the finiteness of life and embracing the imperfections and beauty in, in the present moment and whatever it brings us, to me, that also includes our internal world, not just the way we think in our brain, but what's happening in our body.

And so I, that's where I kind of take it, I guess, well, what's happening internally and.

my client work, and I think in stoicism and just maybe the, in life in general, people in general, we focus on our thinking.

I shouldn't think this way.

I should think more positively.

Um, and that's true.

I can't disagree, but that is also incomplete because there is this whole world inside of us that we don't pay attention to.

We, we kind of exist as I would argue, floating heads, you know, aware of our thinking, but how often do we actually pay attention to how we feel?

And I would argue not very much, especially as technology just consumes more and more of our attention, we're, we're probably not paying attention to, to like what it feels like to be sad, to grieve, uh, to to be angry.

I think we can act on those emotions, but we don't, like ever truly just in the present moment, embrace them and say hello to them and feel where, where they live in the body and all those things come from the sort of, bring it back to the polyvagal theory.

All those things come from our polyvagal state.

When we have, when we're in our, when we're in our, um, safety state, which is ideal, when we have more access to our safety state, we can breathe easier.

Our physiology is just calmer.

We can think clearer too.

Things make sense.

We can weigh pros and cons.

We can plan for the future.

We can take a bigger of reality, um, without getting fearful or dysregulated.

So I, I think all those stoic goals of reality and being okay with less and having our thoughts in line with, uh, the present moment or with objective reality.

I, to me, those goals all come from, well, how much access do we have?

To these ventral vagal pathways.

how, how active are they?

And so, one, if they're active enough, we get all those wonderful things.

We get that calm demeanor.

We, we have the ability to notice this, like surge of maybe like anger when someone cuts us off on the road.

that's kind of it.

It just, and it goes away.

safety state allows that fluidity with our emotions.

But when we, when we don't have access, or when we have less access to our safety state, like in flight fight, we all of a sudden our thoughts become more blaming or shaming.

We avoid responsibility.

We, um, our, our, our vocal tone changes.

We, we, we lose, uh, the sing song.

Equality of our voice become more monotone and stern.

Uh, so it, in shutdown, we have more of the emotions of like depression, loneliness, sadness, heaviness like our, our state.

Directly leads to these different and the more we access we have to safety, then all of a sudden the stoic ideals, I think become a lot more realistic.

But we have to have that access to safety.

So I, I'm not sure if I answered your question.

I kind of went from, this is like a train of thought.

I think it tied together.

I, I definitely get that.

Yeah.

So for me that, that's an interesting kind of moving back and forth between the two, the, the mental and the physical.

Um, one of the things for me that I, I try to, uh, remember in my own daily life as well as, you know, people that I work with, people I coach, is that.

How you feel physically impacts how you think mentally to a greater degree than I think a lot of people, you know, want to give credit to.

Um, you know, especially stoics, because we think that we can just think our ways out of everything.

You know, we're, we're in control of our minds, so we, but understanding that how you feel about anything, if you didn't get enough sleep, if you're hungry, I mean, I know especially for me, when I get hungry, I start getting a little bit crabby.

You know, that's why we came up with the term hangry.

Um, if you have chronic pain, you know, things that are going on in your life are definitely gonna color everything and the thoughts that come up with them.

So, excuse me.

So I think that a big part of, for me anyway, for stoicism is understanding those things and being aware of those things so that you can make sure that you're putting up safeguards, if you will, or that you're countering those things and taking them into account so that they don't become the thing that dominates.

The situation because I think too often, you know, we, we snap at somebody when we're tired or hungry or whatever, and only later on be like, oh, I, sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

I was really hungry, I was really tired.

Um,

Yeah.

but being aware of it in the moment makes it incredibly helpful to, you know, I, like I said, to be able to make sure that you're taking that into consideration in your reactions and your, your responses to things.

Totally.

Yeah.

So let me introduce another concept from Paula Vehicle theory.

'cause I think it has a lot to do with what you're saying.

The, and this, this is, um, the awareness piece of it.

Having awareness of what's happening internally.

Super important.

So there's this, uh, concept of the vagal break, the, uh, vagus nerve, the parasympathetic system, which runs through the vagus nerve, whether it's the dorsal or whether it's shut down, or safety, that directly influences the state of our heart.

Okay.

So in the simplest terms, when we have access to our safety state, when those ventral vagal pathways are active, it calms our heartbeat.

Okay.

When those states, when those, when those pathways become less active, it like a break it, like on a car like it releases, it comes off.

So as it releases from our heart, our heartbeat literally increases the, the speed of it increases, and that directly, uh, leads us into flight fight activation.

So when we lose access to safety, we move into flight or fight.

We cannot be aware of ourselves of the present moment, at least not accurately.

And with calm and compassion.

We really cannot be aware of what you're talking about from a defensive state like fight or fight or shutdown.

The safety pathways to be active when they're active.

Heartbeat will maintain a calm enough pace.

It'll be contained or it'll be regulated.

And as long as our heartbeat is regulated or calmer enough, then we have way more connection to moment, and that includes.

Hunger, like, you know, or having to use the restroom a spike of, uh, anger when someone cuts us off on the road.

But we have to have the vagal break active.

And I think the problem that have with, uh, how we think in general and what I think personally, what I think stoicism misses kind of, but also, uh, therapists who focus more on cognitive beha interventions, kind of look at this as if we, all of us have the same baseline and person A is just thinking wrong, and person B is like, you should think this way.

And that's not incorrect, but it's just not the full picture.

And so person B says, well, just think this way.

person A who's thinking wrong, ideally would say, oh, thank you so much.

Whew.

Let me just take one thought out and put one thought in.

But that's not the way it works because person A.

system may have more flight fight activation.

Their vagal break is weaker, and the, the poly vagal theory and Dr.

Port just do all these like studies to validate all this stuff.

Um, it's certain measurements with respiratory sinus arrhythmia and vagal efficiency and all this stuff.

person A who has maybe like more flight fight activation, who's chronically more aggressive or anxious, they're, they would present as like an anxiety disorder.

would present as, uh, some sort of anger issue.

That person capable at a baseline of adopting a new mindset, of adopting a new way of thinking, of listening to anybody in a way that would be productive for them.

Sadly, that person is fundamentally, their, their filter of reality is like they're in danger.

So person A in flight fight.

Their thinking is gonna be more blaming.

So when someone, when person A, when person B comes along and says, oh you, you need to have more an expansive view, you need to look at us from, look at your situation from above.

Maybe person A is gonna be like, what the F are you talking about?

Back off, leave me alone.

Like, they're not open.

They don't have the capacity to adopt a new way of thinking, to think critically.

And I think that's a rampant issue.

Uh, globally.

Person A who has their per, uh, I'm sorry, person B, I've got my person B who has that way of thinking, that's probably more healthy.

They have a stronger vagal break.

Their safety state, their vagal break is active they can where someone else is coming from taking it personally, can think critically.

Like right now, hopefully you and I have a lot of, person, a hood going on, which is vagal breaks are on.

We're able to listen to each other.

We can smile.

If we were in person, we'd probably, you know, handshake at least maybe a little dap.

could, we could get close to each other.

We could smile, we could make eye contact all person A, you know, we can do all these things.

We can reflect on philosophical issues.

We can reflect on ourselves not blame others.

We can take radical accountability.

can have that locus of control.

not a problem for us when, as long as our vagal break, our safety state is active, but person B, they cannot, they, they cannot do that.

Those, those skills are off the table.

They cannot do those things.

So when we look at things as thinking disorders or an issue with, you're not thinking, right?

There's, we're assuming there's a baseline that person A and B can work from, and there there's not, there could potentially be a baseline if person B works on themselves and, you know, connects more to the present moment and self regulates.

They can have that.

More safety in their system, but until then, they're fundamentally at a, at a different place than person A.

Interesting.

Um.

Yeah, I

no, no, I think so because, uh, this kind of explains some things for me because,

Hmm.

um, I grew up in a fairly violent home.

It, but it was very random, so it was only like 20% of the time.

But it was the unpredictable and it was, you know, my dad would be having a bad day about something and then, you know, we're always constantly, you know, checking his mood all the time, make sure everything's good because everything will be fine.

And then 60 seconds later you're getting hit with a belt.

And so, um, I think for a long time I was definitely kind of stuck in that fight or flight state, you know, just as part of a natural thing.

And it's taken and I, it's taken a long time to work through that for sure.

But I feel like I'm definitely in that in a much more safety state, or at least, at least being aware of when I'm feeling.

You know, in one of the other states and being able to just compensate for that.

Um, so that's, that's kind of interesting.

Um, so what does it take for somebody to kind of move into that place?

What are, what are the, you know, if it's a physiological thing, what are the things they can actually do?

I mean, obviously, you know, like we talked about before, making sure your physiological things you're taken care of, that you're getting enough sleep, that you're, if you have chronic pain, all of those kind of things.

I, you know, I kind of list those as just table stakes of, you know, if you're maintaining your health and doing those type of things, that's, that's definitely gonna help raise that quite a bit.

'cause if your body is not in physiological distress, then it makes it much easier for it to heal.

Let me make it more complicated though.

If, if I may, because I agree with you.

I would call those bare bones.

Like we have to do these things.

And yet, for the person who's stuck in flight fight for them to settle down and go to bed at a decent hour and to calm down and go to sleep, that requires they have access to their safety state.

Because the safety state again, calms the heartbeat, it slows it down.

And actually when we go to sleep, the other parasympathetic system slows it way down, keeps our, you know, basic functioning going while we're asleep.

So like, yeah, that's really important.

But person, the person who has less safety, state access, it's harder for them to do that, which really sucks.

'cause that is good advice.

Like, you should go to bed earlier and they'd be like, yeah, idiot.

No kidding.

can't, when I go to bed, I cannot settle down.

I have to have a TV on.

I have to have a white noise machine going.

And so like that's That yeah, more sleep's a good idea, but can I do that tonight?

Maybe not.

Um, so what can they do that, that's what kind of what the question comes down to, because I, in, in no way do I believe that things are hopeless.

Um, if I did, I would, I should probably change my profession.

I, I don't believe that whatsoever.

You touched upon with your own, and I appreciate you sharing like your own history.

You touched upon, and I think you called it natural.

Like I, I lived in a flight fight as a natural result of my life context, which is exactly right.

Uh, we developed not just emotionally, not just in our thinking a nervous system, unconscious level, we adapt based on the needs of survival in this context, especially in childhood.

In order to survive, I had to be hyper aware.

My body, not that we chose it, body existed in a hyper aware flight state fight state.

In order to get my needs met.

so if that is our that doesn't really change unless generally we start to address it.

And then I don't know how you did that, but you obviously have addressed that to some degree to, to a great degree, I'm assuming.

And so typically that might look like therapy.

Maybe it stoicism, maybe it's like a journal practice.

Maybe it's just meditation and mindfulness.

I don't whatever, we have to bravely, uh, address what's going where, where we're at.

And so that's the general answer, which I think everyone probably knows.

So it's not super helpful what I'm saying order to come out of, because we don't, it's not like we have, like you didn't grow up, not just you, but just in general.

It's not like, you know, you had the flight fight activation and then you returned to safety and like life is good and you're hugging this person and that person think critically and studying.

And maybe that was you, I don't know.

But it's not like we kind of.

Enter, especially in childhood, not like we just enter into flight, fight and then recover and enter and recover.

We enter it and then maybe try to recover, but then the nervous system learns, I can't recover because this thing's gonna happen again.

And so every time the body tries to self-regulate some external force, like a parent, like, it's just like, Nope, you cannot exist in your safety state.

Here's a little bit of balance for you.

Here's some neglect.

Here's shame, whatever.

Fill in the blank.

And so the nervous system learns.

I cannot, and I'm, I'm saying learns, but it's, I'm giving it agentic capability.

It's not, it's not like that.

So that the nervous system develops based on the context, and so that person is chronically in flight, fight or shutdown.

Shutdown is the next level after flight fight.

It's a sequential thing.

So how does that person.

Uh, come out of that.

It's very much possible.

That's what I am devoting my life to, uh, very much possible, but fundamentally, they have to have more safety in their system.

So that means being with safe people, safe enough, safe enough people, and that can include pets, uh, other mammals.

Basically, mammals have a capacity to heal.

And I think Stoicism knows that there's, there's this intrinsic connection.

And I, I think stoics would say that it's, we're thinking rational creatures, therefore we belong together.

And correct me if I got that wrong, but there is this knowing of like, we, sociality is actually really important.

Like, I think STOs know that.

I, I know they know that.

Um, and so that is healing.

It, it's fundamentally, it's called co-regulation.

It's another polyvagal thing.

It's healing when we smile and share, when we share smiles, you or whoever else, when we smile with each other, we have this little crinkles that form on our, with a genuine smile.

We have crinkles that form.

They're called like the crow's feet.

Basically, upper cheeks move our, our eyebrows can move, our face animates.

And when someone who's in like more of a flight fight state sees that it, it's called the safety cue, it triggers their system a little bit.

Maybe not much, but a little bit.

So having that consistent co-regulation, even from a dog, a cat, it helps actually a little bit help, it helps the system have a bit more safety.

So safe people, safe animals, maybe safe environments.

Um, I think intuitively, actually, I know intuitively, intuitively we know that like at work, you know, maybe I'm not feeling like super safe and social right, but when I go to a beach, man, it just feels right.

When I go to a forest, it's like you feel it because the body in those really big situations, those environments, there's a massive shift because there is something about it.

And I think stoics would very much agree that having that simple nature connection is, is very healing as well.

So safe people, environments are a huge part of the equation.

And if you don't have that, there's, there's more stuff you should do.

I, I, I would, I would recommend honestly connecting with how you feel.

And when you do that, it allows the process of self-regulation, which is your body coming out of that stuck defensive state and really releasing the pains, like on a very literal level, releasing the pains within.

But that's not easy to do.

So to sum up the answer is we have to have more safety.

We get more safety by safe people or pets and or pets safe environments.

And once we have those things, then we pay attention to how we feel and we, we gradually release that stuck defensive activation.

Yeah.

Yeah, that sounds very similar to, uh, to kind of how I think things progressed for me.

Um, after my parents got divorced, it was kind of like, uh, it was 20 at the time, but it was kind of like a, a turning point in a way of we could finally talk about all of the shit that had been going on.

You know, so there was first that, okay, we've been living under this fear and this, this, you know, this cloud for so long and we just kind of took it as normal.

And now that it's not there, it was just like, um, we could finally talk about it.

'cause you know, you, we didn't really talk about it that much until after my parents got divorced.

Then it was just like, okay, here's all this crap that's just been sitting there and we've been ignoring it for so long.

And that was,

Yeah.

you know, and because now we had a safe space where we could actually, you know, point it out and say, look, this has been going on.

This is ridiculous.

Why did we put up with this?

And

Yeah.

yeah, so that was definitely a big start, um, kind of getting on that path.

But, but yeah, it's, unfortunately, it it, even with the therapy that I had back then, you know, 30 years ago when that happened, it was still.

I don't think it's really been until the last, probably about four years, that I was finally able to kind of nail down a lot of the elements in such a way that I could actually do something about it.

You know, it's like I thought I had healed a lot of those things only to mess up other relationships, still be angry about a lot of things, and that's why for me, stoicism was such a, you know, it came at at a good time and you know, maybe if I'd found it earlier, it would've, you know, would've helped along in the past sooner.

But it just made sense.

There were just so many things where I was like, okay, that's the clearest explanation I've ever heard about.

You know, like the dichotomy of control.

Like there are all these things in life that you don't have control over, so stop trying to control them.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

That makes sense.

But excuse it.

Excuse me.

Um, but what does that actually mean?

What, what do I have control over?

And it's like, well, you have control over the way that you think about things, your perspective on things.

Um, the beliefs that you choose to follow and your choices and actions, and that's about it.

Everything else is outside of your control.

And while that was kind of scary, it was also kind of healing in the way that, or, uh, not, not just the healing, but at least uh, it gave me a sense of, oh, all this stuff that's out there, I don't have to worry about so much, but I can just focus on these few things.

And if I get really good at those things, then

Sure.

then things will start to change a bit more.

And so I find that stoicism oftentimes has a very occam's razor approach in that, you know, sometimes the simplest definition or the simplest solution or answer is the best.

You know, don't overcomplicate things.

And that for me was just really, really helpful in, you know, again, having grown up Mormon and there was this whole giant theology of this is the way the world works and we're giving you all these answers and this is the truth.

yeah,

And it was complicated.

It didn't fit with a lot of my own morals and perspectives on things.

And it was just like,

yeah.

yeah.

And so leaving that behind was also, I think a big healing aspect as well.

So

I, I could see that.

Um, do you mind if I ask, are you still a Mormon or are you still a believer?

We're in some religion or you atheist.

yeah, pretty much agnostic.

Atheist, I'm open to the idea that there are things far beyond our comprehension.

Um, I really enjoy, well, I really enjoy physics and you know, like I watch physics videos all the time because I find it incredibly fascinating.

And there are just things that we.

That we learn, they just seem absolutely mindbogglingly crazy.

But they're, they're true.

And we can prove that they, they're true.

And so I'm like, okay, if, if you told this to somebody a hundred years ago, 200 years ago, they would've carted you off to the loony bin.

But yet here we have this proof of something that seems completely wild and outrageous, but it's true nonetheless.

And so I'm like,

Yeah.

okay, so I can be okay with the fact that there is possibly something that is greater out there than us.

And,

a being, like a creator, being

uh, a being a force who knows what it doesn't.

okay.

But anybody who tells you that they, that they know what happens after you know that they have all the answers.

I don't believe them.

Because until you can gimme some kind of proof, I'm not gonna believe it.

And so that's why I'm kind of on the agnostic.

I am.

I'm open to the possibilities.

But do I believe that there's something there?

No.

Yeah.

Would it be nice to that after we die, if we go somewhere, play somewhere that's wonderful and beautiful and amazing?

Sure, that would be great.

That'd be great.

But, but I don't have any real proof of that.

And so,

No.

you know, so I'm going to live this life the best I can be the best person I can be, not because I am trying to gun my way, you know, I'm gunning for heaven, if you will.

I am

Yeah, yeah,

doing it because living that way makes my life better now, you know, being an ethical person, trying to make good choices, practicing compassion and kindness, it just makes the world around me better.

And so I get to live in that better world.

I.

And that's why, and that's one of the things that I think so many people miss when they're just too self-focused, is that when you give to your society and your, and your world around you, um, it makes it a better world.

And you get to live in that world.

You know,

There's a

so

impact.

Yeah.

Yeah,

There's, I mean, just, you know, kindness is nice, but even the little interactions that we share with each other, I think are healing for us, but also for others, um, it, it directly impacts that person on a very nervous system level.

It, it, it, when we say it brightens their day, like it is a tiny moment and maybe it doesn't fix their whole life, I know that, but those little things directly impact their wellbeing.

yeah,

yeah.

I'm, I'm right there with you.

yeah.

I,

a small, if it's a small act.

yeah, I see it as, you know, it's, it's the, it's that tiny thing which just slightly changes the direction of a person's day, and it might only be just like a half a degree, but if you're on a boat and you're sailing, you know, somewhere and you're half a degree off, that's that over a long enough time, that can actually be a very big distance of landing here versus landing here.

So.

sure.

Anyway, a little bit of, a little bit of a tangent we got off there.

it's a tangent, but connected.

Um, my mind went to, this might be morbid, sorry, but I've, I've read of or heard of like killers or like school shooters or whatever, who did not shoot that one person because that person said hello to them they didn't kill themselves that day.

You know, they didn't, someone who's suicidal didn't because like the school front desk person said Hi.

Like that being seen, not just nice, it's, it's healing.

It's extremely important and as a direct and very profound impact on.

One's wellbeing.

Yeah.

I guess to reiterate,

Yeah,

sorry if that was too morbid,

no, no, I, I've heard, uh, I've heard the same thing of, you know, people who are just like on their way home from the store and they're like, okay, this is it.

This is the end.

And you know, as they're leaving, somebody says, Hey, you know, have a nice day.

You know and genuinely mean it, or, you know, compliment them on something like, wow, I really like that shirt.

It looks great on you.

You know, and they're like, oh, I'm seen somebody.

yeah,

And just that little pluck.

that's the top down the cognitive explanation is I'm seen, that's the narrative, that's the story, the words in our brain, on a deeper level, it's when someone says that there's the crinkle in their eyes, there's the prosy, the sing-song, equality of their voice.

maybe a gentle like pat on the back or maybe some safe distance, but like there's all these little nonverbal things that pierce the other person on a brainstem level.

That they're not consciously aware of, but they do.

The shift does happen and then in their brain, it's like, I'm seeing that's the story of the experience, the internal experience.

Yeah.

One of my favorite things to do is, and it this helps me when I remember to do it, is when I'm walking down the street anywhere.

'cause I don't have a car right now, so I have to walk, ride my bike everywhere, is that I do my best to smile at everybody that I walk past.

You know, just give 'em a big old smile and make eye contact.

And it's, it's interesting for me just to watch how many people are just kind of like, you know, neutral face.

And then, um, when I smile at them and, you know, make eye contact, they're like, oh, hey,

Yep.

you know?

And

It's huge.

Yeah.

Like that's a testament to your, your level of safety in your system, your, your willing or not, it's not willingness.

Um, I mean maybe a bit of it is, it's not just a behavior that you're doing

yeah.

your body on a polyvagal level, on an autonomic brainstem, on level.

Your body is primed for social connection and, and then your body is able to execute on eye crinkles and vocal prosy and eye contact.

If you did not have that priming for social connection, you would not be able to do those things.

At least not genuinely.

you'd fake it.

You kind of feel it when someone, I think, unless they're really good at faking it, there's a way you can fake your way through these a behavioral level, I suppose, but, what you're describing is my body's in this state enough and I'm listening to that enough, and so I'm gonna act on it enough and then directly impact somebody else in a positive way and receive that positivity return.

And it just kind of feeds this system of, or at least the dyad between the two people.

So I'm curious, um, when you start working with a client who's stuck in one of the other two, let's call them more negative modes, what I, I guess kind of two questions.

One, do you find that, uh, I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this.

Um, do you find that they have a challenge of understanding how their body feels?

And if that's the case, how do you help them to do that?

And then.

Kind of expanding beyond that, what are some ways that it, that you move them from that?

Or is it really just once they start reconnecting with their own body in a certain way, that they're able to move forward?

And is that kind of a, a gradual, just a natural process?

the, well, it is a natural process, but I, I would argue that we are all very far removed from our natural processes.

So there is a natural, we each, you and I, and everybody else, has this self-regulation impulse within us at all times, every species on earth.

And and beyond does, because that is the functioning for, uh, ourselves as take our thoughts out of our brain, the tools out of our hands.

are biological organisms who, who must self-regulate just like my dog, just like the squirrels that run around outside chasing each other.

So that is the, on a biological level, that must have, that's very natural is what I'm saying.

That is the natural compulsion that is always there if we listen to it, the problem is we don't listen to it.

And so when we look inward at our emotions, it feels extremely unnatural.

So, so there's that, that's a huge obstacle is getting someone to see the value in that or understand that, see the value in it, kind of really depending on how much, um.

they have in their, so when someone comes to me and they have, you know, healthier upbringing, they're more likely to take this in and, and run with it.

who has more severe traumatic upbringing, it, it is gonna be a lot more difficult.

Uh, and then even if they get it, like, uh, a lot of the people that listen to my podcast, even if they get it cognitively, it's like, okay, I get it.

I, I get that I'm in a defensive state like flight fight and I get that I'm supposed to feel more safety.

And I, I get that.

I'm supposed to like mindfully pay attention to, to the, to my activation so I can release it and self regularly.

I get it, but my God, how do I do that?

And then I can tell them, oh, we'll do, we'll do, you know, pay attention to your feelings.

Well God, how do I do that?

so there's all these walls, I guess, or that we as humans have like, you know, done to each other we adopt, that we continue all these like behavioral things, cognitive things that we do that stop the process, the natural process of self-regulation.

it's, it's, um, not necessarily comfortable.

It, it, it can be a very uncomfortable process if we're not prepared for it.

So if someone comes to my office and I'm like, Hey, let's feel your feelings.

Let's do this.

me the most horrible things that have happened to you in life and let's just plow through it.

That is gonna be extremely dysregulating for them.

Even though they might, you know, paying attention to how you feel is generally helpful.

But my God, that's gonna be extremely dysregulating and upsetting.

I mean, that's to, to put it mildly, that's gonna re-traumatize them they won't have the capacity to do that.

So, to help someone like that, what I do is focus more on the safety aspect of things we do, like small behavioral changes in life, you know, like getting to bed earlier, 15 minutes earlier this week, let's do that instead of 12, let's do 1145.

And if we could do that for one week, that's like a kaizen approach.

I dunno, have you ever heard of a kaizen?

Yeah.

1% improvement.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

15 minutes might be too much to ask, but, you know, can we do 1145 for one week?

Awesome.

Can we do 1130 the next week?

Lovely.

So like, if we can do those little steps, uh, that's a behavioral change that hopefully doesn't trigger the dysregulation, the fear.

So that's, that's behavioral change.

But as far as like what I'm talking about, the deeper emotional work, that's something that we have to like really tiptoe into you a lot of times.

It depends on someone's capacity.

And so we have to kind of tiptoe into it.

And the priority is always how can we practice feeling safe?

How can we practice feeling safety?

usually that, what it boils down to for most of my clients, 'cause we none of us ever do this, I'm not gonna ask someone to go to the beach every day.

That's, that's too much.

Although I've had clients that have like lived close to beaches and so they have that and it's like, they just soak it up day after day and it really just feeds the, the soul, the system, you know.

And that's the huge boost in the right direction.

But for most of us who don't have a beach or a forest nearby, well, you step outside of your house for 30 seconds and take in one intentional breath and let it out slower?

It's not much, but that might be the start of it.

Can you, instead of, um, I don't know, binging on TikTok, can you spend 30 seconds before binging on TikTok and like mindfully smell a candle in your room again, like, how close can we get to the present moment without distractions, without, uh, making ourselves feel better?

How can we just experience the present moment and, and the safety that comes along with it?

That's really the first step to try to like break, um, to try to have an impact, you know?

Because once someone gets that of like, oh, when I smelled the candle, I really did slow down.

I noticed my breathing became easier.

My muscle tension kind of eased up.

Once we could do that, we can, we can snowball it and we can like build on it we can more intentionally, mindfully feel into what it feels like to be safe in like a, like in my therapy room.

And if we can do that and practice that, and actually I'm, do I do a eight week cohort that like walks people through this?

So if we could feel safe, well, can we hold onto that long enough to now start paying attention to some discomfort?

bit, a little, a little bit at a time.

There's all these like skills I go through, but like that would be the sequence is if we can feel safe enough.

Can we now bring a little bit of curiosity over to your anxiety?

Or the anger that you use against, you know, lashing out against your kids, like yelling at 'em every night to go to bed or something.

If we could feel safe enough.

Can we now notice on a somatic body level, like what does it feel like to be sad, to feel alone?

And those are hard feelings, can we pay attention to those a little bit?

And if we can do that, the body will respond.

It'll, it'll give you what you're, what you're seeking it'll say, here's your aloneness.

Boom.

we want to approach these uncomfortable feelings and just tiptoes, like we wanna like just gradually work our way there, feel it, and we come like we anchor in safety.

So we feel in the present moment we utilize our senses.

We notice where safety lives in the body, all, you know, all that nice stuff.

then we notice where does sadness live in the body?

But we do it to a tolerable level.

Just kind of notice it, feel it, take a snapshot of it, and then come on back over to, okay, how does, how do I feel?

far as my safety aspect goes, let's, let's get back in touch with that.

And so that process of safety, defense safety, you can repeat that as many times as you want, but at a minimum, safety, defense safety, it's called a neural exercise.

It's like you have safety, you take it away, and then you're bringing it back consciously and intentionally.

And that's like you're, you're putting the reps in, you're, you're exercising and strengthening your safety pathways like you would anything else.

That would be a way to gradually someone get unstuck and open the process of self-regulation.

Interesting.

I like that.

Id, yeah, I like that idea of, of the way to kind of ground your body is to do it through somatic or physical means.

Not just thinking about it, that, you know, like doing a candle, going for a walk.

Um,

yeah.

I find that really interesting.

So,

your senses.

Yeah.

and then,

is, I'm sorry.

Go

yeah, go ahead.

Uh, to me that I, I feel like there would be, I assume there's a nice connection to stoicism there where it's, it's just you in the present moment focusing on your senses.

You know, like, uh, it's funny, the, I'm reading the Seneca's letters to a stoic,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

and there's little glimpses of this where I feel like he's touching upon it without really at this level, I guess, and that doesn't hope, that doesn't sound egoistical, but it's like he's, he'll talk about his villa that he goes to where he feels, you know, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Like, yeah, we go to the beach to feel better and he has a villa, like on a cliff side or one or two villas or whatever, and like, yeah, that's it.

It it's just you In this experience that is the present moment.

And, and so there's some areas like that villa or the beach or the forest where, or maybe local library where it's just like,

Yeah.

just me.

the present moment.

And if we can do that, there's, there's so much good that can come from it.

Yeah.

I think it's almost like training yourself to get out of your head, to be in your body, to be there.

Yeah,

that gives you the strength to be able to deal with all the things rattling around in your head.

yeah, exactly.

Yep.

And,

Yeah.

you'll notice is if you do this process, of try like fighting a thought or trying to make it go away or trying to replace it, what you'll notice is, is if you can anchor into your safety state through these like sensory and somatic practices, uh, or mindfulness and meditation practices, really, if you can feel like, I feel this sense of, sorry, am I stuttering here?

My, is my thing choppy?

Uh, it was for a second, but I think we're good.

Okay.

So if you can do these really like mindfulness meditation practices you can feel like, oh, I feel this sense of calm and it lives right here in my chest.

you can get to that point, you'll, you'll feel this, um, sense of connection, of softening.

And then what you'll notice is that thought that I've been battling, it's no longer here.

don't have to battle it.

It's just not there.

When I am dysregulated or if I'm in my, like, flight fight activation or just in general, someone, we have more thoughts of like blame and shame and whatnot.

Changing those thoughts is extremely difficult.

I, I, I would argue, but if you can anchor into safety, notice how it lives in your body, all of a sudden those thoughts are simply not there.

they're not present because the autonomic platform of the body has shifted.

So just to like hopefully solidify this, when you're in a flight fight, you're more likely to punch somebody in the face, right?

Your body is primed for that activity or for running away.

When you're in your safety state and you're grounded and you feel that like warmth in your chest you feel the sense of emotional expansiveness, not, you, your, your body is not primed to punch somebody in the face.

It is not on the table.

It will not enter your mind.

And the thought of it might bring disgust.

If like someone thought, you know, encourage you to punch somebody in the face, you'd be like, oh, what?

It just, it would not compute because the body is fundamentally in a different state.

So it's not just behaviors like punching somebody in the face, but it's also, why would I think negatively of myself when I'm, when I feel like this, I, I couldn't comprehend that thought entering my brain.

I couldn't comprehend, about what on TikTok is doing.

Like, what do I care that makes no difference in my life whatsoever.

And isn't it wonderful outside?

And yeah, I'm gonna die.

I better appreciate this present moment as much as I can and the relationship I have in my life.

Like all those things come from that platform of, of safety.

Yeah, and it's interesting as you were talking through some of that, it reminded me of after I got divorced, this was 21 years ago, 20 years ago.

Um, so I'm a cyclist.

And so for me that was basically my way of, my way of dealing with a lot of that was, you know, I'd ride into work and then I'd take the long way home and so I was riding 150, 200 miles a week and, you know, yeah, I was in great shape.

I, I think I lost probably about, within about three months I lost like 20 pounds and it was the leanest I'd been since high school.

And um,

wow.

I just found that being out on the bike, being out on the road and it was, it was during the summer, so I mean, it was great riding and.

Yeah.

Because it was really hard to get distracted by anything else because the only things that I could focus on were, you know, some of the thoughts wandering through my mind for some time, but I had to focus on the road.

I could see the scenery, you know, make sure I wasn't getting hit by cars, other things like that.

So there's all of these other things, but being out there and just, you know, and the, the other thing for me is that I hit flow states all the time when I'm out riding, just because it's kind of a, the best way to describe, you know, people always like, how can you do that?

Why would you do that?

I'm like, it's the closest thing that I can get to flying.

Without being in a plane

yeah,

because it's just smooth.

It's just you're cruising along at a speed, you're, you're under your own power.

And when everything kind of lines up, when your, when your muscles are firing just right, your breathing is, is really good and you're on a nice, you know, strong flat stretch or some nice rolling hills and you just, everything is in sync.

It's just this amazing feeling.

Like I said, it feels like you're almost flying along this road.

And, and I found that that was incredibly healing for me.

You know, when I was,

yeah.

Oh yeah.

I could see that you're like, you were giving your body an avenue to release pains inside.

I would, I would assume.

yeah.

Yeah.

That's, um, people in who have more flight, fight, more activation.

They, they tend to be pulled toward activities that are, you know, more movement based.

That totally makes sense.

I have worked with a client who maybe similar to you actually, where a guy would go to the gym three to six hours a day and just like go until he was exhausted, but he had a of childhood trauma could not, wasn't even aware that it was still affecting him, but he, he knew that when I go to the gym, this is where I'm able to get some sort of release.

It wasn't permanent.

I think it always just kind of came right back because he wasn't doing it mindfully.

He wasn't paying attention to the experience of it.

at the gym, he would have movement, he would have an outlet.

But he also had people that were encouraging him and smiling at him.

And so that was like a safe place in a sense.

And then after the gym, he'd go like, run 10 miles.

It was absurd, uh, to, to most, you know, people day to day.

Uh, but that's, his state was so intense and like, so like his motor was just on until he got to the point of, of exhaustion really.

And that was not the same as safety.

But I think his body was telling him there's something about this activity and these people and this environment that just kind of feels right.

know, he wasn't alone.

There were smiles, there was encouragement, there was laughter, there was storytelling pats on the back.

I'm sure.

So it, there was lots of co-regulation and connection.

So I think his body knew there's something about this place that I just kind of am pulled towards and it's different for everybody, but there's also the movement aspect of it.

Like, I can, I can release this pain through exer.

If he had paid attention to it, it probably would've been, would not have been a six hour daily thing.

He probably still would've liked to work.

It probably would've felt good, but probably would've been, uh, more content, uh, had he paid attention to the experience of working out versus just mindlessly working out, which is hard to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, sometimes we use things as a distraction and maybe that was part of it was that if I'm, if I'm lifting, then if I'm mad about something, I can just put it into the lift rather than, you know, yelling at my kids or whatever it was that was, was hard for 'em.

Yeah, I could totally see that.

Yeah.

So as a behavioral intervention, that's great.

Yeah.

would much rather someone out than yell at their kids.

Heck yeah.

That, that's a great intervention, but as a means to heal there's, there's another level we can get to, I guess, is the idea.

Yeah.

So it sounds like there needs to be that combination of doing the physical work to reconnect with it, and obviously lifting weights or cycling or whatever it is, is you're definitely in your body and you're, and you're working with that.

But then it's taking that and moving up to that mental step and being able to start to heal those things that, that are, that keep that cause the physical to be dysregulated.

And so, but I think you kind of get that virtuous cycle over time.

I think if, if, if someone is, I, if they notice that like I'm, I'm over exerting myself as a means to cope, that's fine.

Like, do you, no judgment whatsoever.

And, but, but the next time that you go to the gym or you go, um, running or cycling or whatever, what if you did rep or two reps and really felt it was that you were coping with?

Like what if you intentionally felt that anger and slowly did that, that movement, that push and like that level of mindfulness may open up a different type of a, a release your, the sympathetic activation.

The, the body's like priming of it can actually release and shift.

So it would, it would feel of it's a lot different.

It's, it's, you feel this like, discharge from the system versus just going, going, going, going.

So if someone can slow down, and I wouldn't do this with like super heavy weights at all, but, or like, you don't want to go fast either, can you find a weight or a speed that is, there's resistance.

And so instead of like, you know, lifting like super fast, what if you found a weight that was enough of a resistance you just kind of slowly felt, you did the movement and you felt the resistance and you pushed back against the resistance.

That level of mindfulness is what we're trying to get at that level of mindfulness and connection to your muscles in the present moment.

It, it, the clutter of the mind is gone at that point.

And the mind, the brain, the conscious thought.

Is now connected with what's happening bottom up.

So bottom up matches top down.

That's what we want.

And it meets the brainstem.

And if that can happen, the brainstem is like fricking, finally, thank you for, know, decluttering your brain and focusing on how the body feels.

Now we can shift state, now we can release this shit.

We've been, excuse me, we can release this stuff that we've been holding onto for decades.

Maybe not, not all in one sitting, but over time we can release this as you pay attention to how I feel to personify the brainstem.

So listen,

Sorry, if, if, if swearing is

uh, no, it's fine.

I

Um,

Okay.

it reminds me of, uh, this is a crazy incident, uh, but I think it, it fits right along with this.

So back, uh, I guess it was probably 99, 2000 I think, I think it was like 2001 probably.

Now that I've kind of tapping the timeline there.

Um, I used to be very outta shape at, uh, before I picked up cycling.

I, uh, I reached a point where I was 210 pounds and I'm only five seven.

So, um, not, not good by any means.

And I was working for a company out in Minnesota and I remember I was having numbness in my feet on both sides.

And so I, I went to see a doctor about that.

I went to a podiatrist at first and he was just like, oh no, this is a back issue.

And I was like, it is.

He's like, yeah, we'll get you into PT for your back.

And I'm like, okay.

I,

Yeah.

they're kind of strange and, and I still have the numb spots.

It actually shorted out the nerves for some reason.

So it doesn't hurt.

It's just I have numbness on the sides of my feet and I was like, okay, you know, I can live with it, I can still walk, I, everything I can feel around it.

But the direct sensation is just kinda like how when you have Novocaine and you're touching your cheek,

Yeah.

but I remember I went to the physical therapist, a guy named Frank, and um, I.

As we were talking, he was like, okay, so what do you do for a living?

I'm like, I'm a software developer.

And he's just like, oh, one of the worst things you can do for your back.

And I just, I was like, what?

He goes, it's one of the worst careers for your job or for your back.

And I was just like,

Yeah.

okay.

And so he worked on my back a bit, um, you know, and some hot and cold packs, other things like that.

And then he says, okay, before the next session, next time you're sitting at work and you are just sitting there, I want you to notice how much your back hurts.

And I was like, okay.

And so the next day I'm sitting there at work and I was, you know, busy typing away.

And it was a little bit before lunch and I, that thought popped in my head of like, you know, does your back hurt?

And I was like,

yeah,

does my back hurt?

I don't think my back hurts.

And then suddenly I was paying attention to my body and suddenly I realized how much my lower back hurt from just sitting for three hours at a time in that chair.

And I was just like, oh my God.

Holy crap.

And I stood up and I was just like, how did I not notice this?

How could I be so out of touch with my own body that I was in that much pain?

And I didn't even notice it, that I had totally blocked it out.

And so the next time I saw him, I said, holy crap, my back was killing me.

And he goes, I kind of thought it would be, and I said, why didn't I notice it?

He's just like, there are a lot of reasons why we do stuff like that, but yeah, you're a little bit out of touch with your body.

And it was, it was very interesting that, that I had been in that much pain for so long and I, I, I just completely blocked it out and it, it floored me like now I can't even imagine that.

Like I'm very much in tune with my body and, and shortly after this time was when I got into cycling and, and, you know, totally changed my diet and my health.

But, uh, but yeah, it was amazing to me how much it really hurt and I just was completely unaware of it.

Yeah.

There and there, there's stuff that, and in no way am I like perfect on this, but there's stuff all day, every day our body's sending, sending us signals that our conscious mind is just not picking up on it, but it's there.

If we listen, it's there.

I'm doing a, I have a little community I run we're doing a digital mindfulness challenge, and the challenge is every week to notice, um, like for one, for week one, it was, when you're using social media.

Pause for 30 seconds and notice like the fir on day one.

Is it, do you actually like it or not?

And most people were like, I don't like this, but I keep doing it.

In day two it was, um, what happens in your breathing?

And so they would pause and notice I'm holding my breath more often than not, or it's very shallow and tight

Mm-hmm.

for no reason.

Like there's no reason for that.

Well, it's the stimulation maybe in, I don't know, judgment and danger cues.

I don't know.

And then day three, it was like, um, notice your muscle tension.

And they would notice I'm tense.

My chest is like, there's pressure on I'm, I'm tense.

Or day four is, are you more or less likely to smile and no.

So there's all these, the point is, there's all these things happening within us that we have no idea about.

We just kind of keep doing the thing.

'cause it feels good in, in a way, it's not, you know, if we really paid attention in that moment, it really doesn't feel good.

Like it's not a good experience.

Uh.

Yeah, I got, yeah.

Point is tons of stuff that we're, we're missing out on.

And when I watch the 40 oners, I have no idea what's happening in my body.

I'm just pissed off if they're losing.

Yeah, so I think it kind of in summary is the more in tune you get with your body, the more you are here in the present moment and in reality.

Yeah, yeah, The present moment in the body, sensory inputs.

Um, we can get there, like there's a lot of good that can happen.

I, I think that directly connects with polyvagal stuff I'm talking about, but directly connects with stoicism.

I think the most beautiful part, like moments of the meditations were that's what spoke to me about it was Marcus not, you know, chastising himself for not thinking rightly right or not doing good enough, or not being the man he wants to be.

But it was those moments of like just honest reflection without, I should be this way.

I shouldn't be that way.

It's just.

This moment, um, that, that really spoke to me even when about death.

Like, I think that directly connects with what I, what I believe is like the really, the heart of stoicism.

That's my take up from it at least.

Agree.

All right, well, I think we're coming up on time here.

Is there any last thing you want to say to my audience and also let them know where they can find you online.

Um, yeah, just become more curious if, if you can, although I'm asking them to change their thoughts, really.

sp change your behaviors.

Do, do for one, for 30 seconds today, can you step outside, take one intentional breath, let it out slower on the way out, and maybe notice what you feel as best you can.

And if you, if the best you can do is say I something, I feel something kind of good.

Okay.

Or if the best you can do is I feel something kind of bad and you're just like, honestly acknowledging that.

Well, good job, then head back on in the house and you're, you're done for the day.

So can you do one little thing today?

That is more mindful, more present moment than it was yesterday.

Just a very, very tiny step.

Um, I think it's a good starting point as far as where to find me stuck.

Not broken.com.

My podcast is the same name, but if you go to stuck not broken.com, everything, everything's there.

Right.

Well, thank you so much for being on my podcast.

This was really interesting.

Uh, I think for me it was, it was, it was really great to kind of connect to the mental, with the physical and in such an interesting way.

So I really appreciate that.

Yeah, it's fascinating.

Oh, I love this stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I.

love this stuff.

The, the, the book, the polyvagal theory book, the the first one, thick Academic Studies, you know, research paper, kind of just all put together all of his work.

The first chapter though, when I started reading it, very hard read, first chapter was about mind and body, which I was like, why is he starting with that?

But it makes sense to me now that this is a direct connection, mind and body.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think we missed that.

All right, so that's the end of this week, stoic Coffee Break.

As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.

Also, if you haven't purchased my book, stoicism 1 0 1, I would really appreciate if you would, you can find more information on my website at Stoic Coffee.

Can I, can I, can I, uh, endorse your book real quick?

Sure.

Is that okay?

Do you stop recording?

No, I'm still recording.

stop recording?

Okay.

Yeah, I bought the audio book.

I'm really enjoying it.

I I love that.

It's, a lot of times when I'm learning about reading about stoicism, I have to like, like what, what's that thing virtue?

What is the, what the heck does virtue mean again?

And so the, your book is like, it really is the one-on-one, so I highly recommend it.

And the audio version is just as pleasant as the podcast.

Oh, well thank you.

Yeah, it was interesting.

My, one of my only bad reviews on Amazon was, you know, this is so repetitive, and I'm like.

That's kind of the point because I didn't want people to have to go back every time to, to go, oh wait, what was virtue?

What was dichotomy of control?

And so I would say the dichotomy of control, what you can control and what you can't control, then continue on.

And so I did that purposefully because I knew that one, you're learning it, or two, you might have just picked up the book and read a chapter randomly, and I don't wanna have to re, you know, I don't want you to have to go all the way back to find it.

So I'm glad that that worked.

that it's a non-issue.

Completely.

No, I'm really enjoying it.

Oh good.

All right.

Yeah.

Well, I appreciate that.

Also, you should follow me on social media.

I know that we talk about the evils of social media, but it's how I reach other people.

So if you want to give me a like or subscribe, I would really appreciate it.

You can find me at, uh.

Instagram and Threads at Stoic Coffee and YouTube ins.

Uh, yeah, YouTube, Facebook, X, all of the others at Stoic Coffee.

All one word.

Thanks again for listening.