This week on thinking deeply about primary education.

The the pressure on we've been there a term what difference to be made is immense and I'm lucky, I think, because the trust in particular understand that this is a long term journey and it's a it's a three-year journey.

Ask about their kids and their dog and their other half is really, really important.

And you know, even if they aren't one of the people that you want to go to the pub with, they are still there giving their time, giving their commitment.

And I think if you put enough in then you'll get enough out and it won't be so isolating.

It's one of those things that shows that you are not in your ivory tower and you are still part of the team.

Welcome to Thinking to be My Primary Education, the podcast that makes time space thing where pedagogy, teaching and learning, professional development anything of interest, a time for but enthusiasm rich primary teachers.

This week I'm joined by Olivia Dempsey.

We're going to explore the decisions you had to make in the first year of headship and the tension between making an instant impact, establishing credibility, and prudent long term change.

Liv, thank you very much for joining us.

It's great to see you again.

How?

Are you?

Yeah, I'm good to thank you.

Enjoying the break.

How are you?

Yeah, not too bad.

Yeah, the work's starting to ramp back up again, you know that.

We're almost into the new term, but, you know, maybe a couple more days per break.

I don't know about yourself, but New Year's on the on the horizon.

Yeah, and then January and it's back to the grindstone.

Yeah, I also think if you don't get stuff done, basically by the end of the Six Nations, the year just disappears from you.

So you've got until what the end of March and then we haven't got it done.

It's not going to happen.

And so we're going to explore your first year in headship and obviously you're what all you Bill what a year now and a full big term into into headship and you took over in was as far to describe as challenging circumstances that being acceptable.

I think that would be an appropriate description indeed.

And I thought, you know, but having heard about the great work and seeing the great work you're doing, I thought it'd be really, really useful and to to find the time to chat.

And obviously during the Christmas holidays is the only time that head teachers really have any time to to do stuff now.

So when you arrived, like I say, you inherited the school with significant challenges in the early weeks and months.

What did you prioritize in order to establish almost like the trust and credibility with staff?

And how did you decide what not to rush?

Yeah.

So I just to give a bit of context, our challenging circumstances was special measures, inadequate multiple monitoring visits and in an unstable leadership team that had all gone and we were starting from scratch again.

I was really lucky that I finished my previous school two weeks before the end of the summer term for my current school, which meant that I had a couple of weeks to get in and really get a feel for where everything was.

It's all well and good reading the Ofsted reports and the monitoring visit reports, but you don't really get a feel for it until you're sort of on the ground.

So that really, really helped me.

And then obviously I had the summer where I could go in and out and look at what was there and what wasn't there.

So that really helped me to get a picture.

But I think the main thing that I found most useful was arranging one to ones with staff as soon as I could.

Obviously waited till September.

But to really be able to understand then where they saw the school because it's all well and good where the trust saw the school and where Osted saw the school.

But understanding where those people, those boots on the ground saw it was was a real eye eye opener.

And being able to pick out the themes.

And I think the main theme in my school was that everybody really loved the school and loved the community and wanted to do their best.

And they might not have been capable of, of, of doing their best, but they've definitely wanted to do their best.

And that really helped.

And I think it also made the staff feel that they were listened to.

So then that trust started to creep in and listening to the the little things that really mattered to them and if there was anything that I could make a quick change on to help them, that obviously built my credibility up as well, I think.

So I mean, that's, that's quite a sizeable substantial investment in time then I mean, was that basically all you were doing for an extended period of time whenever you first joined the school?

Yeah.

And I think that's really important.

Like, you know, you said about rushing, like it's really important to take stock.

And obviously in that situation, we had Ofsted looming.

We'd been told that by October half term they were coming for another monitoring visit, which didn't actually transpire.

But having that balance between the sense of panic, of Oh my goodness me, we need to actually make a difference.

But taking the time to sit back and reflect on what's going on was really, really important.

That's not to say that we didn't do things straight away, but I think that time spent listening, watching, living, breathing, understanding was really warranted.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I I know head teachers should have said they'll spend 6 months in the normal school.

I mean, we don't all have the luxury of, of that amount of time really do because that's basically, you know, 2/3 of the, the school year.

No.

And I would have loved to have had that luxury of of six months.

But you know, as I said, we we were under the impression that Ofsted were coming imminently and we needed to make those quick wins to show that we were doing something.

And yeah, six months was not an option.

So I mean, I mean, looking back at it, obviously now it's easy with a year, a year separation to think about the decisions you were making.

What was the ratio of feeling like you were just surviving and feeling like you're being strategic?

Because I know, like, obviously Lloyd's taking over and he's just finished his first big term.

And I'm sure he's, he's been dealing with more fires than he has been dealing with them long term plans.

I mean, what was your, what was it, What did it feel like in the moment?

Oh.

That I was employed as a firefighter, yeah, running from pillar to post.

We had some really big behaviour issues and that was the first thing that we had to tackle.

And yeah, everyday was firefighting.

I think in the first three days I had to have a parent arrested for their behaviour towards me and other staff at school children's services.

You know, I was listening to to Hannah on last week and so much of what she said resonated.

There was a lot of firefighting, but I think having that underlying trying strategy, knowing what you're aiming for and what your strategy was and having that as a back of the mind thing each time you're fighting one of those fires was really helpful.

Obviously, you're never going to achieve what you want to achieve because you have no idea what you're going to deal with on a daily basis.

But I think it's important to know that vision, that goal and where you're going to, but also to make all the staff aware of that as well, so that when they're all fighting their individual fires, they're still have that in the back of their mind and they're on the same path as you.

Nice.

That's cool.

So you can put the firefight into good use for you and also put your staff because, yeah, because obviously they're going to be pushing things up upstream to you whenever they've perhaps reached the end of their ability to deal with the situation or something aren't there.

And that's fantastic.

I think that's really useful because it's not necessarily something the way I've ever thought about things that got there.

And I only saw the 2 is against each other.

And but that sounds like a really, really, really, really interesting way to approach things.

Yeah, and I think it's important as well.

One thing I found really useful is making staff aware of as much as is possible and not having that sort of gatekeeping of all that's an SLT matter where only we shall know about this.

My staff will know about the budget.

You know, they all know about the challenges that we're facing.

They all know what our priorities are and what our long term strategy is so that we are all on the same page about things.

And then they realise how their little actions can feed into the bigger picture.

Can.

I imagine that's massive because you guys are 1/2 form nursery and Infant School in, I want to say Hampshire.

I always get the country wrong.

Is Hampshire, is it Hampshire?

Yeah.

And so obviously that that will be tight budgeting wise, you know, so the more they're aware of how they can support that, I suppose the the better.

Yeah.

And and you know, budgets are tight for everybody, especially for us.

We were hit by having to make redundancies last year, which was another thing that obviously we, we hadn't foreseen.

And we've just had the, you know, the latest Idec index.

We're now in the, the, whichever way you look at it, the top 3% of educational poverty in the entire country.

So there's a lot of things that we need to do with very little budget.

Just wild, because when you say the word Hampshire, you don't think of poverty, do you?

You think about like the Air Force and you think about and sort of reasonably after dairies and stuff.

So that's, yeah, that's massive and almost compounds the the challenge.

And I've lost my train.

I thought I was going to say something, so I'll ask you about something there.

Oh yes, redundancies.

I mean, that's not really on the MPQ he it, is it?

You know, I haven't seen an MPQ hitch assessment where there's redundancies to be made in any meaningful way.

I mean, what was that?

What was that like?

Just out of notice?

Yeah, it was actually the the second time that I had been involved with redundancies at my previous school.

There was also redundancies had to be made but obviously I wasn't the where the buck had stopped.

It was it was a really challenging time.

It was for the needs of the business.

And I think when we as educators take on this profession, we don't ever think, oh, I'm going to be a business person at the end point.

And teaching was my second career and I have worked in business previously and that experience has been massively helpful.

And, you know, I haven't done an MPQ.

I did an MA in leadership and management.

But even within that, I don't think there's enough of an emphasis on the fact that you are running a business at the end of the day.

And it's really difficult for the staff to understand that because they haven't entered the profession wanting to be part of a business.

They've wanted to change children's lives.

That's, you know, why they're there.

So getting across that is, is the first barrier I think is to making staff understand that and then the emotional side of it.

The huge emotional side of it is that, you know, you are breaking the team up and somebody's got to go.

But again, just transparency with staff and making sure that they understand that process.

We had a redundancy matrix which was a scoring system and it came down to maths and making sure that all staff understood that it came down to maths and it was not anything personal really, really helped.

And they were all on board.

And one thing that really shocked me is the amount of messages I had from staff asking me if I was OK about the whole process because they understood how awful it is being that person that's having to say to people, I'm sorry you haven't got a job anymore, as well as how awful it is for that person being in that situation.

So I was really blown away.

And it just, it shows how amazing my staff are, I think kind.

Of was talking about emotional toll and I imagine the emotional toll there, you know, so I know I told her I didn't really tell her off, but she thought I was telling her off of her for using alcohol as her escape.

You know, I think this is a situation probably where actually, you know, a glass of red wine is probably, probably necessary.

Medicinal.

In a school that needs improvement, there's often a pressure to act really, really quickly.

How did you navigate that tension between making visible changes and then also building the systems that would last beyond your first year?

Standing my ground, Like I said, we had a vision, we had a strategy, we had a plan and we knew that it was going to go awry.

But we knew the importance of making quick wins and having that balance of, of a visible change alongside a long term thing.

And for us the biggest thing was behaviour.

Behaviour was awful.

When I went to look round the school to see whether or not I wanted to apply, I was walloped with a hula hoop by an errant child and you know, it was a real no holds barred, eye opening tour.

And being able to make that change with behaviour which would underpin every other change gave it validity.

It showed some quick wins because when staff kept from the trust or people came and walked around them, you know, the behaviour was so much more visibly improved.

It was something that made a massive difference to staff.

That was one of their biggest concerns was that the the behaviour they were unable to teach because of behaviour that children, other children weren't able to learn because of behaviour.

So identifying that as something that had a long term gain and quick wins was a massive help.

But you're right that the pressure on you've been there a term, what difference have you made is immense.

And I'm lucky, I think, because the trust in particular understand that this is a long term journey and it's a, it's a three-year journey.

And you know, one of the benefits of being in a trust is that is that central team and the skill set that they bring.

And we're really lucky that we have offset inspectors within our, our, our central team and they understand both sides of the game.

And they were really helpful in saying, OK, well, this is a quick win for Ofsted and this is a quick win for the school.

And, and this is how they can feed into your long term plan.

So having that those people around that understand that time scale I think is really, really important.

But also being able to justify that to Ofsted.

As I said previously, you know, we were expecting them to come in October half term for another monitoring visit and they didn't, they came in January and they did a full inspection.

50% of my staff had been there three weeks when they came.

We came out of special measures and were given 2 areas of good, one of those being behaviour and attitudes and our attendance is so low but because we could show all of the systems that we were putting into place, that made a massive difference to them.

I think the one annoying thing, which may be different with the new framework was that so many things are over time.

And if you've been there a term, how can you possibly show things over time which immediately restricts what grading you're going to get.

So that was frustrating, but I think it's really important to stand your ground and have the evidence to show that This is why I'm doing it.

And if you've got a why behind the what I think you're, you're golden.

Yeah, yeah, because I mean, I think the listeners will definitely want to if they haven't already checked out the episode on behaviour.

Was it the start of the academic year?

Was it?

We looked at the behaviour?

Yeah, I think so.

And I think someone actually reached out and got in touch with the off the back of that, didn't there?

They did, yeah, yeah.

Which is, which is really lovely.

Yeah, it's pretty cool, you know, So, I mean, because if you want to see like, you know, because whenever I visit, you know, I can tell the teachers are working really hard to maintain the relationships, maintain the balance in class and things.

But they're doing such a fantastic job because those children, you know, really quite vulnerable in many cases, but actually thriving in school thanks to the systems you put in place over that over that year.

I mean, like, how soon did you notice that?

Did you notice it by the time off state had come in that things were starting to the corner was starting to turn, or were you noticed that even sooner than that?

Oh, even sooner than that there was a sense of relief, I think when we explained the vision to staff and what we were going to put in place.

And I think by by October half term, we all agreed that we needed a two week October half term because we'd all worked so hard, but that things were really different and that it was a different place.

And you know, you mentioned about our children being vulnerable 97, sorry, 93% of our children are classed as vulnerable in the school.

We have on average three or four children per year group who don't tick any of the vulnerability boxes.

So, you know, the teachers are working really, really hard and having that support for them to be able to teach and do their job is a massive thing.

It also feels really special as well, I think because now you say the teachers really want to be there, they really want to do their best.

And that's when I think you get like really strong like team cohesion and team bonds build.

And you'll probably just probably still be sort of having collegiate conversations, you know, 5-10 years from now when they're in, when they're in different parts of the in the country perhaps.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know, that team thing is the is the thing that shines through whenever anyone visits us.

And it's taken a while to get all the pieces in the right place.

And like you say, everybody wants to be there.

We are a really special school and I think you have to be a certain type of person to work with us.

And whenever we've looked at employing anybody, we've laid on the line about how things are, but also how we expect things to be.

You know, you are going to have to work really hard because these children come with none of the lived experiences that you would expect them to come to come with.

And they don't get the support home necessarily because they're maybe one of seven and the parents just don't have the time to give them that attention at home.

And however, on the flip side, you know, we are a team that realises that there is more to life than work and that you have to have a really good work life balance, especially when you take home a lot of the emotional toll.

You know, like Hannah was talking about with the the safeguarding, when you take that home, you have to also realise that there is time that you need to decompress and, and as such we don't expect people to stay.

You know, that directed time isn't something that's banded around at school.

We know that people work because I know that they'll still get the job done.

It just might be on Saturday afternoon with that glass of red wine.

Absolutely.

I mean, because I think back, I mean, there's there's definitely reminds me of the the first couple of schools I worked in and if not all of them to some respect.

And I like I met with my inky team mentor and 1st Saturday of the Christmas holidays, you know, we still, we're still in close contact with each other, still sort of supporting each other.

And as head teacher, I mean, like, are you leaning on personal networks to build that team or, you know, because it almost feels like sometimes you're the, you're the best of the application gods, you know, and sometimes some posts will have hundreds of applications, someone will have none.

What's your strategy as head teacher, if you if it's possible to have one in terms of in terms of building that team?

My one of my heads in the past said to me that she only employs people that she would like to go to the pub with.

And I have used this strategy to great effect.

Yeah, absolutely.

It is that that is phase one.

Would I want to go to the pub with them?

If they're that kind of person that I would choose to spend my time with outside of work with, then we're probably going to get on.

They're probably my kind of person and we're probably going to have the same vision for things and also leaning hugely on personal networks.

When I started, I brought with me an EYFS lead who I'd worked with previously, who was going to go travelling and put it off for a term to come with me in the January.

I needed somebody and a chap that I used to work with.

I called him, I knew he wasn't working.

Please, please, please.

He came and did a term for me.

I've got two friends from from my village who I know completely outside of work who've come across to work for me.

So it's very much helpful when you know people in the circle and who you can bring in.

They're known entities, you know what their strengths and weaknesses are.

You know that you can build a team around them, but fundamentally, you know that they've got that same outlook and that same desire and that same vision as you.

And particularly in our school, you need to have that.

You need to be that kind of person to work there.

And never underestimate the value of of keeping your contacts with people because if they're not free, they might know someone who is free or who could, you know, do that for you or do this for you.

And that's been massively helpful.

Yeah, I don't know how to precisely describe it, but it's like it's like a level of head teacher hustle.

You know, because I've got I've got another colleague head teacher who his budget is always really, really healthy because of the the hustling that he's doing.

Or like the maybe it's maybe it's the bustling, but he's always one step ahead in terms of making sure that he's got extra teachers and things together.

And you know, whenever you talk about how you're making sure the school is in the best place it would be, you know, I need to find a better word than hustle.

No, I like it, The head teacher hustle.

I want to be part of that gang.

Yeah, I totally agree.

And you know, my poor, poor other half, the amount of times that he's come in to look at a boiler or a radiator or a toilet or whatever, because I refuse to pay anybody when I know that he can do it for free.

And, you know, having those contacts is really useful, especially in the local community.

You know, we need this thing.

Oh, actually, I can go ask that person or, you know, we can advertise there or we can get some help with the food bank here.

My village WhatsApp group is amazing for when we need donations for things or people to come in and read or governors.

I think also, you know, not being too shy or too proud to ask for help is a is a massive boon.

I will absolutely bite someone's hand off if they make an offer of help for something or if they have a skill that I can utilise and abuse.

And I think, you know, you have to be brave enough to do that to definitely succeed with your budget.

Yeah, that's that.

You've mentioned before the village WhatsApp group.

Yeah, but there's countless them what's up groups of schools could be involved in and it's just a matter of finding out who's who's organising, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's, I think it also helps that, you know, sad to say that we have the sob story of, of being that impoverished school that's that, like you say, is somewhere where you just wouldn't expect it.

And people are really generous with their time, with their money, with their possessions, you know, to help us out, which is really beneficial.

The The first year of Headship is often described as isolating.

How did you how did your sense of yourself as a leader change over the course of the year?

You know, particularly when decisions were unpopular, uncertain, or emotionally difficult, like those we've discussed already in the 1st 2 questions.

Yeah, I think it has got the potential to be isolating, but it's what you make of it.

I came into the job thinking everybody will hate me and I'm OK with that because at the end of the day it's a job and we're here to do the best for the children.

But that hasn't been the case.

And I think those decisions, like I said about the redundancies and making staff understand the whys and the wherefores is really, really important because you aren't then isolated and, and people do actually care about you as a person.

And taking time to make those bonds with staff and, you know, ask about their kids and their dog and their other half is really, really important.

And you know, even if they aren't one of the people that you want to go to the pub with, they are still there giving their time, giving their commitment.

And I think if you put enough in then you'll get enough out and it won't be so isolating to.

Be honest, I think you you strike me someone who's pretty good at capturing that balance.

I don't know if you're listening to the episode we're talking about tending to be a school leader.

And and I didn't capture that balance whenever I was deputy head.

But like the last time I visited you were you had the, the Christmas decorations out and you were decorating the, the school for for most of the the morning.

You know, is it that kind of hands on kind of approach that sort of buys you goodwill with the with with the teachers and then other members of staff in the school?

Yeah, absolutely.

I would like to point out that I do actually do some work.

It's not just about paying Christmas decorations up, but that was a particularly fun morning.

Yeah, I think that's really, really important because, well, number one, I have the attention span of a gnat and would get thoroughly bored just doing all the, you know, official head teachery jobs and saying doing something like putting the Christmas decorations out for me is a relief as well.

But also it's something that's really lovely and we don't necessarily have the time to do that.

And it, like you say, it's one of those things that shows that you are not in your ivory tower and you are still part of the team and working in the trenches alongside people is really, really important.

And you, you do forget when you come out of class, you do forget what it's like and you do forget the struggles of it.

And being in there and being helpful and showing willing to people that you want to understand from their viewpoint is really important.

When we had a lot of behavioural troubles in the sort of first part of the year, I was the one that people went to and I don't think they'd had that before.

I don't think they'd had that ability to go and get somebody from SLT, even when children were being really physical towards them.

And so taking the brunt of that and you know, I would never do anything, like I said in the behaviour episode, I would never expect staff to do anything that I wasn't prepared to do myself.

And I think that's really, really important.

And if you want to be credible and trusted and authentic, then you have to live that life alongside them.

And yes, it means that you might spend your morning doing Christmas decorations or you might spend your morning in a sensory room with a really distressed child or hugging chickens or stroking dogs or whatever you do.

Umm, it's really important that you do take the time out of your schedule to do that and, and spend that time because it goes miles not just for the children, but for the adults as well.

I mean, like, if you're looking back, what would you say to someone about to take on their first headship or who is on their knees or was on their knees at the end of December?

And because they'd just finished their first term and they were going into challenging context that they simply couldn't have understood before going through it, what, what would your advice be to them?

What would you say to them before they took on that challenge?

Be prepared to take the morning to put up Christmas decorations because it will do wonders for your own mental health is a real, you know, especially if you are on your knees.

I think have your eyes open to the fact that you are not going to achieve what you set out to achieve every day.

But like I said before, have that strategy.

Have that long term vision in the back of your mind and every decision you make, think about how that aligns with that strategy.

And it might be the firefighter and or it might be the Christmas decorations or it might be anything else, but just have that in the back of your mind always.

I think one thing going into a challenging context, which I really didn't expect is the amount of time that safeguarding takes up in your in your day.

And last year I was really lucky that I had somebody else who could be DSL and this year I don't.

And so I'm DSL and that has taken up a huge swathes of my time, especially because of the context obviously that we're in.

It's really opened my eyes to how strained children's services are and how this, you know, again, like Hannah was saying this, this the, the levels before children's services will get involved.

On the flip side, it's amazing the difference that you can make to families and the difference that you as a school, as a community hub can make.

And I think particularly when you're in a challenging context and you take on that headship, you are not just taking on a headship, you are taking on a community role, you are taking on a counselling role, a parental advisory role.

I spend a lot of time with parents, Not with parental complaints, not with telling them off about their children, but helping them.

And it's amazing to see how few parents understand their responsibilities as a parent and what they need to do to succeed.

And I'm really, really hopeful that when the best start hubs open, we're lucky enough that we're getting one in Farnborough.

And I think that that will hopefully make a difference to my workload, liaising with those agencies and having somewhere that we can signpost parents to, to help us lighten that community load, which is absolutely massive.

And I really didn't expect that.

Yeah, 100%.

I mean, if it's anywhere near as impactful as Sure Start was, you know, that would that really helped a lot of the schools I was working in almost support parents early on, You know, when the when, when their children were like, I mean, even if it had one or two were going through the school, you've got those babies, you know, from the very youngest age being support and the parents being supported and to almost give them a better and the best possible start because, you know, we know, just like learning, I think development is the, you know, child development is essentially the same.

So, you know, I mean, is that your sense that the best start centers will perform the job that was being performed by share standards, it's slightly different.

Yeah, that is my hope.

And I met with our local MP just before Christmas to talk about what that will offer.

And I am, I am really hopeful that it will make a difference.

I completed my dissertation for my Master's day over the summer and it was about the effects of poverty on early childhood education.

And the gains that can be made for our children are exponential if we have that, like you say, that early intervention.

And I think it will make such a difference in breaking the cycle.

A lot of our parents that come through and the issues that we see with their children are it's what they faced when they were younger.

And the children are children who are struggling to read and write.

Their parents can't necessarily read and write.

And we spend a lot of time doing forms with them and, you know, helping them.

And I think if this works, if it does do what it says on the tin, then it will make a massive difference, especially in our community.

We need, we need something to, we need something in place, don't we?

I mean, the, the, the safeguard you're describing the, the emotional aspect of it.

That's, you know, whenever I was on the podcast, I'm trying to avoid becoming a head teacher, that it's that element that that I know is not my, you know, that I don't want to spend my days doing that.

So it's a massive hats off to you and all the other head teachers out there who are doing this because I know the role has changed even in the in the 20 years since I were trained to become a teacher, you know, being a head teacher now, I think it's a much more intense role and perhaps it's ever been, you know, obviously I can't speak any grid certainly, but it certainly feels like the role has changed.

You know, some, you know, massive, massive hats off to everyone sort of them during that day in, day out.

I can't imagine what it must be like.

Yeah.

And you're right, it has changed massively from my understanding anyway.

And I think I potentially made a rod from my own back.

I think in our situation, because we as a team have sort of made that collective decision that we want to do more and we do go go massively out of our way.

We have a a food bank that we need to go and collect once a week and that obviously takes time and people out of the equation.

I've driven parents to court when they've been had fines for attendance just to help them understand the process of it.

We collect, often collect children from home.

If their parents can't get in or if there's a problem with the bus or you know, there's a parental arguments etcetera, we will go out of our way to do that.

You know, I've got business insurance on my car so that I can go out and collect if I need to.

And that isn't something that anybody tells you you have to do.

It's not an expectation, but we as a team decided that that was the stance that we're going to take because we want to make as much of a difference as possible and we have got the nursery and the infants and we know that we can make the biggest difference for everybody else going forward as well.

It certainly appears that you're making a massive difference and long may it continue.

And I think this episode will really be really helpful for anyone who's at the beginning of their headship journey or contemplating, you know, almost applying for head ships now that they were getting into the the sort of spring term.

All I said to do is say thank you very much for joining me.

No problem.

Thank you very much for having me, it's been lovely.

And to everyone at home, until next time, thanks for listening.