cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So Riki, we will get started with the fast five.

First question, what's your name?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I'm Riki Kramer.

I ranch in Lance Creek, Wyoming.

Together with my husband and my daughter, we run Kramer's Ranch, Kramer's Land and Livestock.

It's about 8,000 acres the eastern central part of Wyoming.

Brush, short grass, pretty arid.

We're, we're, we're in some, not like really tough country, but is tougher than some other places.

So cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I think it's a tougher area than what I'm in.

And what livestock species do you graze?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we run Angus cross cattle, then we have a horse herd, a, a pretty good sized horse herd that we raise.

And then my daughter has some meat goats that she's.

Grazing and grazing as well.

They don't run with the cows, they just kind of migrate around the, the house here in about four different pastures.

But we do have goats.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

Those goats are always a fun addition.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yes.

Yes, they are, we're we're kidding right now.

And range kidding at that, like an Easter egg hunt every cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

Well that, that's always fun when you can go out, when they can manage their own kids.

Have 'em.

You can just go out and see 'em.

It's like a Easter egg hunt.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yeah.

Yeah, it is.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: What year did you all start grazing Livestock?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So this was my husband's family's ranch, and so they have been ranching on this property since 1973, I believe.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 50 years, his family's been here.

We bought the ranch from his family in 2008.

No, 2007.

And so then when, when we bought it, we were able to transition to our own style.

My husband had already been kind of grazing his own way doing his own thing.

He was a May caver, his family was a February caver through the barn.

So I mean, we, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: had gone through a major transition and so we, when we bought the place, I.

We started looking at some rotational grazing options, some different things like that.

But it was just, everything always seems so daunting and unfeasible because we are large pastures, we are rough country.

We've got some draws that are, it's hard to keep permanent fancy and let alone string temporary fence or change temporary fence or anything like that.

The deer and the antelope run through it.

If you, if you can name, find it, name it.

We had the reason why it wouldn't work, I mean, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: explored all of those options and so.

That we just kept kind of plugging along, looking at some different things, though, with our grazing techniques changes over time.

And so we've been refining our grazing and everything since 2007, 2008.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 2008 is when I really started keeping records.

So we'll just, we'll just say really 2008.

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For 10 seconds about the podcast and for the farm, and kind of combine those today.

So I was thinking about record keeping and I've seen some things online.

How are you keeping records?

I made a poll in the Grazing Grass community.

It asked, what are you using to keep your grazing records, your, um, livestock records?

And I put paper and pencil and spreadsheets, but I left it open so you can add what you're using.

I'd love to see what you're using to keep track of this, so next year you're able to look back and see how it's gone.

Look forward to seeing your answers, and let's get back to Riki.

I.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Before, before 2008.

Y'all were running a few cows.

Did you grow up on a ranch as well?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I did.

I grew up in a ranch in central Wyoming.

Near Casey and so I wasn't unfamiliar with ag either.

My family also was a February March cabr and cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that, that's been a transition.

Set Stock grazing is how I grew up.

Set stock grazing is how Justin grew up.

And so that just even changing the idea that we didn't have a summer range and a winter range that the cattle just stayed on nonstop for those seasons was quite a change for this place.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

What was the catalyst for you all going this February kidding or February, kidding?

We were talking about goats a little bit ago.

This February calving's not for us.

And you all made the move to May.

What was the catalyst for that?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: The catalyst really was the fact that Justin was trying to, when he was, I think just shortly outta college, so mid nineties, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: wasn't, there wasn't room for him and his brother and his mom and dad all on this place with cattle.

And so he went in search of lease pastures for himself and the pastures that he was able to find were about 30 miles north of us and two track roads were the best entrance to them.

so when you're got your cattle up there that's not real accessible in February to check 'em, there's dang sure no facilities to check 'em.

And cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: to May calving at that point just because he couldn't get to his cows and, and he is never looked back since.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yes.

But did you all, when you all became able to, to go back to February, Kev, Kevin, was that ever a thought that crossed your mind?

Or at that point, were you like, no, this is so much better at her?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yeah, we, that thought has, it crosses our mind and we go, no, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: No.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: back.

And, and actually we have gone the other direction.

When I was pregnant with my daughter, we were May Havers 1st of May, and I, I don't know, I was, she was born in July, so I was like seven months pregnant and we had Mother's Day, blizzards blow in right, right cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: middle.

You know, we just started calving, we're calving right along.

we looked at each other as we're trying to drag calves outta snow drifts and everything else to try to get, get 'em saved, and we're like, this ain't worth it.

So we actually pushed back to June 1st, calving now.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

And June 1st is working pretty good that that's probably beyond most of the increment weather that you all might have.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: It, it really is.

I think in this last year we, we decided we'd back up four or five days.

So this year our intended calving date was, I think roughly May 27th.

So we started calving actually on the 22nd with our early cat or those short gestation cows.

as we were out through 'em the other day, yesterday, in fact, I would say we're pushing probably 60% done in this first two week window.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, nice.

Yeah.

What, what kind of breeding period are you all using?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We use a a 45 day breed up.

But when we transitioned to our IMG style of grazing and stockmanship, it actually naturally synced our herd.

so it's crazy to watch, like breeding season is unreal.

Like the amount of cattle they get bred in that short amount of time, all natural service.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

We, we will have to talk about that more a little bit later.

Let's, so 2008, you all had the opportunity to buy Justin's parents' place.

You all bought it.

What'd the infrastructure look like?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 2008, Justin, I think, well, I think more closer to 2002, had kind of come back to the family ranch in a little bit and was leasing half of it.

And so cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: he then was able to, at his own expense that he needed water on the half that he was leasing.

And so he put in, oh geez, in oh five, I think close to 10 or 12 miles of two inch pipeline and water tanks.

then after we bought the place, so in.

seven.

So in oh eight I think it was, we went ahead and pipelined the other half of the place.

So we have about 22 miles of pipeline that off run off of two wells and are, is in an every single pasture.

And then our pasture size ranged from 70 to 1100 acres.

And so I think there's oh 20, 21 or 22 pastures that we have that are in varying sizes, all permanent barbed wire fence a lot of that fence from the forties and fifties.

We have some new fences, cross fences that we've put in, but very few.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

With, with coming back and having that infrastructure in place or that you all have in place now, did you ever try any electric fence or were you just rotating them through those pastures?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We did try some electric fence stuff.

Just, from 2008 up to 2017, we were game to try a lot of different things and cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: lot of different things didn't work for us.

We're such a brittle area, we could never get the pasture size You know, like one area of the ground would be really kind of productive and then you'd move to the next section and it's not as productive.

You'd have the same size of paddock then you're, you're not able to get equal grazing just because we're so uneven in our, in our production, in our pastures.

Temporary fence, just, it became a nightmare for us.

I have of temporary fence posts and lots of poly wire.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

But you're not using any of them now.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: nope.

We've gotten, gotten away from all of it now.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

With your, with your grazing management.

Are you feeding hay?

Were you feeding hay in oa?

Are you feeding any cake?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: In, let's see, in 2008, we were caking about two pounds ahead a day.

And that slowly tapered off till 2016 when we were feeding a half a pound every other day.

And we finally looked at each other and said, why are we coming out here to feed a half a pound every other day?

so in 16 we quit cake, everything.

Hay is kind of on a as needed basis up cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 2020, we probably hadn't fed but maybe 25 round bales total in the previous 25 years.

Like cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: feed hay in the winter.

Now, in 2020 it was a little bit different.

And we can get into that a little bit later too, if you want, on the, what happened in that year?

We had an early freeze and so our grass did it.

It came up and then it winter killed, basically frost killed.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we had, we were stocked to the hilt 'cause we, we knew we had this thing figured out.

And then we ended up selling ca or cattle off, like leased cattle.

We had in, we, we early outed leases grazed insurance pastures just to get us into October, November.

And then we had to go full feed hay and that's the first time that Justin had ever had to feed full feed hay since the mid nineties.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Well, it never fails.

Just when you think you have something figured out.

Mu mother nature says, oh no, you don't.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right?

Yeah.

We've been humbled cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: bit.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah, yeah.

It, it doesn't matter what it is, what species species it is.

Even with my honeybees, it's like when I think I've got this figured out no you don't.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

Here's just another lesson for you.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

With the, the discontinuing of feeding cake to your animals, I see a lot of feed trucks run up and down our roads all the time.

How was that transition for you?

Did you run into any wrecks doing that?

Or was it enough?

Was it gradual enough and you all had already decreased down to a half pound a day or so?

Was it not any big deal?

I.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: It really wasn't a big deal.

I don't know that we saw a big change in our cows all, so it was, it was actually just kind of a nice deal.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Not having to go out there and feed them that little bit of feed every day with, with your cows.

I think earlier you mentioned Angus crossed, have you always had Angus crossed?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yeah, yeah, we're cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Black Angus.

Sometimes we run a herford cross in there, so we do have some baldies and I cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Have you riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we've got a Red Angus, a black headed red Angus bull that we've been cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: a couple years too.

But I still call it Angus cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: guys are not gonna be happy, but cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: No they won't.

But when you say a black-eyed red Angus, that's a different animal than a black Angus to me.

So.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: yep, it is.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

So what have you, what has happened to the type of cow you're running?

Has that changed over the years?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Maybe a little.

Our cattle are, are small framed, I mean rolly, pully fat in July, coming off of the best summer feed and being dry.

When we run 'em through the sail barn, they will, the top end of 'em would maybe hit 1200 pounds.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 10 50 to 1100 pound cows.

And that's when they're fat, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not those huge cows so many people think of when you think of Angus.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: right?

No, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Of course, that, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: old school genetics.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah, that's a oxymoron when I say that too, because when growing up.

We had a dairy and we always used Angus bulls on the heifers so we could have small calves, but by the time we got out, we had to stop that because the Angus calves were too big.

We couldn't find bulls that would have those little calves for us.

You, you have your multiple paddocks, you have your watering systems, and you mentioned you had two inch pipes and watering holes through in every pasture.

Are you doing like a tire tank or a 10 foot tank out there?

What's your watering point look like?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we do have the big 12 foot tire pit tanks.

We're pretty fortunate here in Lus.

That was, believe, one of the first places that was cutting those tire tanks down.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: so, you know, they were handy right here in our own backyard, 30 miles away from us.

So we do have boy, I bet we're probably up to 25 to 30 of those tanks scattered throughout.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And that makes it really nice.

Did you all do anything for a base for those wire, for that watering area, or did you just pipe it and put the, the tire tank out there?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Really, we've just piped it in and put the tire tank there and occasionally we have to haul some more dirt.

And if cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Mm-hmm.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you know, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: is kind of a big factor on some of our tanks.

Sometimes we get a little bit of water erosion from if it overflows or something, but typically it's a wind erosion that gets us.

And like a lot of people gravel pack 'em, but we don't cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: access to a, to a real handy gravel pit all the time without a lot of freight on it.

so we just kind of rely on our heavy soils to be able to hold it.

One thing that we've noticed though is when we made our shift in our grazing the cattle don't just kinda lounge around the tanks anymore and beat that out.

So a lot of times the only place about a cow's width away from the drinking tank is all that's beat out and the rest of it's all grassed in.

And so cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: kind of an unusual thing that we noticed when we, when we changed our grazing techniques, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

And what I know you talked about during those early years, you all were looking and considering all different options.

What brought you to IMG?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That that was a journey in itself, I guess.

So we, you know, we tried the rotation thing and we had the rotation thing down pretty good.

I mean, we'd made some pretty good improvements.

We went, typically this area is 40 acres to the cow.

And just through what we were doing in 2008, actually were down to 34 acres to the cow.

So we'd made some improvements, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: always just kind of felt like there's something else there.

Like, we're missing something.

There's something that can be done to, to get this over the hump.

Like we just kind of plateaued right there.

And so this one day we were out, we'd looked at some badlands of ours and, and how we could improve those.

And we had a bunch of, I don't know, it was like 10 or 12-year-old crested wheat hay, small bales that the strings had rotted on.

we're like, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I don't know.

Let's go scatter that hay out over in these Badlands and see what happens.

And so we did, we went and, and scattered that hay out and they were like, well, I think we need to bring the cows in here and let them finish scattering this hay for us.

And so my daughter, I don't know, she must have been six or eight at the time just a little, little girl.

And so we're, the three of us are out there a horseback and we're holding these cattle in this basin and letting 'em just mill.

And we'd hold 'em there for a couple cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: did that three times, three days in a row.

And every time they tried to come out, we'd just kick 'em back down in there and, and just force 'em just to kind of move around, walk around, walk paths, scatter, all that hay.

Well, I had taken pictures of it before and after, and the video of it all happening and everything.

And there was a Facebook group at the time that I was a part of, and I had just shared those videos out there for conversation piece.

And Bob Kin sees it and he's like, a minute, you guys really need to try instinctive, migratory grazing.

He is like, it's gonna fit your deal.

I've been watching what you're doing.

And we're like, tell us a little more.

so he, he, he and I got to talking about it.

Well, that was like in March when that all started.

in April I had a horse fall and break my ankle.

And so now I'm laid up and now I am like a captive audience.

And so Bob cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: conversing a lot more and I'm like, okay, I think I got this figured out.

And I go to Justin, I'm like, okay, this is what Bob says we have to do.

So we'd go out and we'd work with our cows and I'd video it 'cause I couldn't do anything else.

And Bob would say, Nope, you, you just don't quite have it yet.

And we were trying to hurt him, trying to place him, trying to get him to graze, do all the stuff that he does, and it just, it wasn't working.

But then one day we were out, like in, must have been June or July, we were out riding and we'd come across the pasture and we'd worked with our cattles and cattle just enough that we could see some changes.

And as we rode into this pasture, we came through this gate and it was like somebody had came through and mechanically mowed just a swath through this pasture.

And the residual height on it was like four inches.

Everything else untouched like eight, nine inches.

And we're like, what in the world?

Like nobody would come through here with a swather or anything.

And cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you know, we're like, what's going on here?

So then we got paying attention and watching our cattle a little more and we're like, oh, we're, we're onto something here.

Like Bob kind of has this figured out.

We don't know what it is yet, but he's got something figured out.

And so finally I called him up and I said, you gotta get up here.

Like we we're.

Getting there, but we're not there.

You're right.

We don't have this figured out.

so he came up then in August showed us the techniques that it takes to reboot the herd.

And we spent five days working with our cattle.

And then after that we haven't looked back because the changes have just been tremendous and they just keep coming.

And the, the changes in the way our cattle behave, the way they graze, the way they interact, everything was like this huge shift.

And it's enough of a shift that we went from being 34 acres to the cow to averaging 16 acres to the cow over the last seven years.

So cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes, so.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: right there from 2008, doubled our stocking rate after we were cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: doing well, you know, for the 40 acres per cow.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

You doubled it after it was already an improved stocking rate from where it'd been.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yes.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

So it was, so you all kinda, excuse the word, but played around with it for three or four months while communicating with Bob before Bob got up there to, to help y'all get that.

Maybe you might say the last mile to figure That, out.

yeah, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that's a good way to term it because, yeah, we played with it and we kind of had an idea of what we were doing, but still didn't have the fine techniques.

And come to find out, you, you really can't get the fine techniques until somebody show physically shows you, and you, you actually experienced that.

It's crazy.

I mean, I, I'd watched videos, I'd, I did everything and it, it took the hands-on teaching of it to finally get it to click.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And Bob's got a website.

We'll put in our show notes, so if anyone's interested, they're able to, to, go see what Bob's got more on it, as well as whatever you have we'll put in our show notes with, with doing that, first off, just tell people, tell our listeners what IMG is and what, what does it attempt to do.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So IMG stands for Instinctive Migratory Grazing.

And what it attempts to do is mimic the natural herd behavior.

It doesn't mimic it, it is the natural herd behavior of the cattle and the way that they move through an area selecting the forages that they need at that time based on what's kind of, what's available.

And the maturity levels, I mean, it, it really is a selective grazing, which I know is not what everybody's after, but cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: in, essence, that's what the big herds did.

They selectively chose the forage that they needed for the time of development or stage of life that they were in that fit their, their nutritional requirements.

As we watch our yearlings, they graze different things than our pears do or than our heavy cows Do.

You know, it's, it's crazy what the cattle will instinctively do.

Now, to unlock that, it takes some stockmanship you've got a, the stockmanship piece.

It appears to take the stress away from the cattle so that want to stay together as a herd.

They want to go back to those old instinctive ways travel as a group.

The density of it really depends on the forage quality and quantity that they are in at that particular time.

Like in late June mid, mid to late June, our cattle will probably be the densest that they are.

then as the forage starts to decline, they start to spread out a little bit more.

And then in the winter months when they're grazing, you'll see it, it's a, it's a path that they're on and, and they're dang sure moving as a herd, but it's a pretty loose herd.

But they're, you know, the stuff they're grazing is, is not quality at all, but it still has cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: ample nutrition to it, to, for survival basically.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

And we want to tell our listeners real quick, or.

I can't even talk.

English is new to me.

I wanna tell listeners just real quick, it's our overgrazing section for today is IMG and talking about it.

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com cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: But it's a deeper dive in that we do for something on your ranch, a practice there.

And with IGM, you all got that started and you all already had these fences in place, these smaller paddocks.

And when we say smaller, you mentioned earlier, we're still talking large, 70 to 1100 acres, so we're still talking large paddocks.

Did that work in conjunction with those paddocks or pastures you have or was that any type of problem with that?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: so when you, theory.

IMG can be used, like in theory you would gut all the interior fences and they would have this entire 8,000 acres to be able to migrate around, choose the grasses that they needed.

Thank goodness we, like I mentioned, we have all the horses and we had several horse bands that we have to keep fence separate, a couple cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: things like that.

And so we couldn't pull all the interior fences, and I'm really glad that we didn't because.

Along this journey, after learning about IMG, went to a seminar that was done by Ian Mitchell Ennis, and he, he was very much so talking about the same type of grazing, only he was using herders get the same effect that I was getting with our instinctive migratory grazing.

And what really clicked right there after listening to him and conversing with him a little bit, was that we needed these fences I needed to confine them to a specific area to say, okay, you guys are gonna migrate this 70 acres, and it might only take you a day to migrate it, but I need you to get everything that you're gonna get outta here, and then I'll open the gate and you'll move on to the next pasture.

And you'll do the same thing.

Now, we're not taking it to the ground.

We're only taking the top third because when they, when you reboot those cows and you don't force 'em to take everything, they really only want one bite off of a plant.

And so cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: taking that top third and then they're moving on.

And so what I had really gained from Ian was a grazing plan.

And so that's what I call planned migratory grazing.

And it's, it's strictly built on ratios of pasture size the amount of rest that you want each pasture to get.

so our entire grazing plan is set up on a formula.

And like, well, like last weekend I think is when I finally got ours done.

We'd been kind of winging it to be honest with you this year because we're like, oh, we're a little bit behind.

Well, we cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yes, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that.

Yep, it's time to come out of this pasture.

And so I finally sat down, got all the math done, did all the figuring on it, and got our grazing plan from now until December 31st, all laid out.

And so our, our infrastructure that was already in place really played a key role in that and knowing what our cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: sizes were cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: hope, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and how long we wanted those pastures to rest.

So now we only graze summer graze with our cow, main cow herd, about 3000, maybe 3,500 acres.

And then our yearlings will graze another 3000, maybe 2,500 acres.

so then that leaves, that's like 5,500 total.

So there's another 25, 3000, acres that are in insurance pastures that are in rest for a full grazing season.

And sometimes that adjusts.

Sometimes we have to pull things out of insurance, if the grass is growing and we get the perfect ideal rains and everything, sometimes we shorten up those acres that we're on so that maybe our main cow herd is only grazing 2000 to 2,500 acres for the entire summer and everything else is in insurance or rest.

So it's, it's been quite a journey with the instinctive migratory grazing and then combining it with our planned migratory grazing.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: It's been incredible watching.

Like one thing that we did one year was we started the cattle over on the far east end of our place.

We're we're contiguous, so that helps.

as they would graze a pasture and the the math on our plan said they should be coming out about a day before we'd go open the gate.

sure enough, we'd go back the next day that they were like, the day well actually be the day after.

So there was a day skip in there.

the day after, what they should have been coming out of that pasture and they were out and grazing the next pasture.

So we just kept doing that and we grazed them.

We migrated them all the way through.

they think 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5 pastures.

migrated with us just opening the gate the day before, the night before they were supposed to come out of there type deal.

And so what that allows us to do is we now graze some pastures and six times in a growing season because we've only taken the top third.

it only takes, sometimes it takes 15 to 20 days to recover.

Sometimes it takes 45 days to recover.

Just kind of cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you know, when we're, when we're really moving fast through 'em, that us because we can come back around and graze again that same pasture I.

That in itself has been an eyeopener because they don't always graze the same plants each time through.

So when they come through in May, they're gonna be grazing the cheat grasses and the early cool seasons grasses.

come back through in June, those ch, those grasses are already kind of mature and headed out and they've picked up a different grass that they're going after or for or whatever.

it didn't matter that our grazing plans still held for whatever species of grass that they were after because we have such great diversity in our pastures.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: With them going through just a little bit.

I wanna talk more about your forages and your pastures in just a moment, but help me see when you got this herding instinct rebooted in your cow herd.

Am I looking out there and I would see, I would think they were surrounded by electric fences and kept in a small area.

They're grazing that close together as they move through a pasture.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: At times.

Yes.

Depending on which pastures they were in, if we have 'em down on the sub irrigated meadows, I've actually got video clips and pictures of them being tight, like they were fenced into an area.

And cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: when you realize that they have access to 900 acres and they're just in this little wad just walking along, migrating along, grazing huge when you, when you finally get to see that, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: uplands, they're not gonna be that tight, but you will see 'em, let's see.

We could have two to 300 head, like 200 head of, of pairs roughly five acres as, as cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh wow.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: along, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you know, but we've also seen 'em as tight as a hundred foot by 200 foot, whatever, you know, that's like three cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Uh oh.

Yes.

N now with your cow herd, you all went through that process and got the IMG going.

Have y'all brought any, in, any new cows into the herd other than what you've raised?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We have, have, we actually, so in that since 2017, I bought some cows to, bring in, and that was, that was an adventure getting them to hook onto our cows.

They, they settled in a lot faster than we, than.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: have because of the way we handled, but you could sure see that some of those cows had maybe been mishandled as they would run and search out trees to hide under or brush up.

And, you know, it took a few times of handling 'em to figure for them to figure out, Hey, it's okay to be with the herd.

You don't have to run away and go isolate yourself like the herds cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: be.

then we've also brought in two separate groups of share cattle as we keep building our numbers, leveraging somebody else's cattle, basically.

But, you know, it's, it's always interesting watching those cattle come in and, and they'll finally assimilate.

Some cattle take a little longer than others, just depending on their background.

We've not found, we've, we actually used the stockmanship techniques.

We were day working quite a bit up until about 2020.

And so for three years there.

We had, we were day working pretty strong, and so we hadn't found a herd of cattle yet that wouldn't respond positively to the stockmanship of the IMG stuff.

And we're talking range cattle that were flighty, 10,000 acre cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: as they saw you two miles away, they were gone.

And cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Their head goes up and they go, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: away and they're coming towards us because we're drawing them to us.

And instead of pushing them away from us, it was cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: to watch.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And how long did that process take on you all's initial herd to, to get that rebooted?

And when I say that, I know y'all did a few months, then Bob came out there.

When Bob left was your herd, would you consider him IMG?

At that point riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I would consider them pretty strongly rebooted.

Yeah, it cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Five consistent days cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: screw ups.

I mean, as soon as you revert back to old habits and everything else, it blows 'em apart.

And so then you spend another day or two essentially rebooting, but it doesn't take as long.

but yeah, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: tell you five days, five consistent days that reboots is, is there, as long as you continue with that same program then.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: And with your, your five days, so you're saying someone goes out to your course and we're gonna talk about this later they come home five days, they can go through this.

Is that, are they gonna spend those five days out with the cows the whole time, or is it a little while each day?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: It is.

So it's really now, like if you come to our school, it's five and intense days out with the cattle, mostly because we've got so many people that we need to get hands-on cattle, so everybody needs opportunity or whatnot.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: the five, the five days are, you have the techniques down, you know what you're doing, you, you know how to read everything that's going on.

You go home and you spa, you go out, you move your cows, you like pick 'em up in the morning and take 'em to water and put 'em on a grazing path.

day one.

You go out the cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you'll typically, what you'll see is your cattle on day one, they will be scattered all over the pasture.

And day one, you'll pick 'em up, you'll move 'em to water.

Using the stockmanship techniques, you'll take 'em off water and put 'em on a grazing path and then let 'em be.

And day two, you'll go out and you'll be like, nothing's changed.

so you'll pick 'em up again, and you'll put 'em, you'll take 'em to water, and then you'll put 'em on a grazing path and you'll ride away.

So I mean, we're talking two to three hours maybe, depending on cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and how much area you're having to cover.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And by day three, you'll kind of see pods of cattle And so, you know, you'll have a small group here and a small group over there.

And so now you're gathering pods of cattle to water instead of all these individuals.

And you'll bring 'em into water and you'll take 'em off and put 'em on a grazing path.

And then by day four, you'll see about three distinct herds of cattle.

And then by day five you should be down to two and usually you'll be down to one distinct group of cattle.

It, it really does happen that fast if you've got all of the pieces in place with your stockmanship, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

And do you have to revisit that from time to time or, it's like a computer.

It's rebooted, so it's good to go.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: so truly once you convert, you don't ever want to go back.

Because every time, now, if we change pastures, we use those techniques.

So essentially we are revisiting it cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: If we went back to driving them, it would blow 'em apart and they would be stressed and then they would just, they would never come together and graze in the pasture.

So have to go back to the IMG stockmanship techniques.

Every time we move our cows, we take 'em to fresh pasture.

We put 'em on a grazing path.

And then they're good to go.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, very good.

With, with the Stockman techniques, are those beneficial for you even if you're not working on horseback?

Or is it just mainly if you're working from horseback?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We we're really glad that we learned them a horseback because now we understand the communication that's going on.

'cause really it's communication between your horse and the cattle, and that's what's creating that draw and then getting the cattle to do what they do and, and re and reducing the stress on them.

have been able to progress those same techniques into the Carell on foot.

But we cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: what our horse does.

so, and you know, once you understand what the, the communication between the animals, then you can start to make that communication yourself.

And now we do have a four-wheeler.

We bought a four-wheeler here a couple years ago.

We hadn't had one on the place for, I mean, I think my husband had one when he was in high school, but, so we bought a four-wheeler and, and we've played around with that a little bit too.

And it's, it's a whole different type of, of communication.

You know, your horse has lateral movement, which is huge in that four-wheeler does not have lateral movement.

A cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: headlights that look like prey eyes.

Horses don't have.

Shaping up my horse's body because I rely a lot on flex of my horse and to send the, the, this, the communication and, and whatnot is based on the head posture and the body posture of my horse.

And a four wheeler is all straight lines, you know, so it's, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: done, but it's, it's not as effective.

It just, I don't know.

It, I think if you learn the techniques of horseback, you can figure out how to make a four wheeler work, but you still won't have the same control that you have with a horse.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah, so the horse is kind of the basic level and I, I hate to use the word basic, but you really gotta get the handle on that before you try and do some of the other, more advanced riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that's, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: you figure that.

out and understand it.

Yeah.

When, when you think about operations that would benefit from A IMG grazing, who, who is that?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I would say it's large acres arid environment.

And that's, that's the, that's the people that have not been able to get rotational grazing to work for them.

When you're in a large acre arid environment, you know, you're so brittle, you can't, you can't afford to take everything off.

You can't afford to screw up one of those paddocks, you know, 'cause then you're two to three years before it ever recovers.

And depending on how cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you could lose half your ranch for two to three years.

And so really the IMG and the PMG.

It fits those large, large acres.

And I, you know, like we're not big, we're 8,000 and there's certainly a lot other places that are a lot more acres than we are and a lot more arid than we are.

You know, they're talking 80 to cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: to a cow and, and they're utilizing it in some of those areas.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

Is there, there's a couple more questions I have on your herd and on forages.

Well, let's go ahead and ask about the forages, and I'll come back to your herds and your pastures in just a moment with your forages in doing this, have you noticed any change in your forage species or for each quality, has it been negative, positive?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Through the data that I've collected over the years, we've seen a, a really nice shift from, annual plants, our cheatgrass, perennial plants, our Western wheat.

it's, it's been for the positive.

Like we cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: a cheatgrass problem.

Cheatgrass is one of those things that we graze early on in March and April.

And so that keeps it pretty well knocked back so that then our favorable cool season grasses aren't competing with it the entire cool season long to the point that our cheat grasses maybe a little endangered.

And I'm not sure what we're gonna use as an early cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we keep on this trend.

so that's, that is a major shift that we've, we've seen and I've got that data collected somewhere.

I just didn't, didn't drag it out, but I, ah, I'm not even gonna quote any numbers, but it's, it's been a cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: huge shift for the positive.

Like I said, we're sagebrush, we're Western wheat, we're buffalo grass.

Thread leaf said, green needle, grass, needle and thread.

Trying to think June.

Grass cheat grass.

Got some Broome grasses down on the meadow like that.

I don't know.

At one point I think there was like 47 different species of plants, Forbes grasses, available to graze that we, we had monitored and found on our place.

So, I cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: variety.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I was about to say, I've never been to Wyoming.

And then I was like, wait, I have, I went to Cheyenne Rodeo once.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Barely, barely into the tip of Wyoming.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Barely.

Yes.

I think you've mentioned a few times through this, you run your cow herd as one herd and you run yearlings as a second herd.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: We do.

That allows it.

So we run our cow herd at, we found that we can summer our cow herd and, and rotational grazing with the IMG and they actually will leave enough stockpile forage that we can bring winter graze, custom graze cattle in and graze all of that that we just spent the summer on.

In the meantime, our yearlings are grazing another section of the ranch, couple thousand acres or whatever, and they're keeping that part of it vegetative so when they leave, our cow herd can actually migrate over and they will winter on what the yearlings were able to keep vegetative and stockpile a, at, at a little bit lesser density.

You know, their yearlings cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: not as many of them.

And so that's what we rely on then for our winter stockpile grazing is what the, what the yearlings can generate in regrowth and stockpile.

And then, like I said, we, we actually found it kind of a niche market where we custom graze winter grazing cattle on everything that we had already, summer grazed and people cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: with.

People are like, I don't, I don't want your old grass.

And now I've got guys calling going, Hey can we, can we get some winter grass?

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

When do those yearling calves come, heif, if you, you've got your heifers.

When do they come back to the main herd, or when are they assimilated into that main herd?

I, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So we, we do things a lot different around here.

We, we don't wean, we, okay, so we, June calf, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: we will wean the following April.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

11 months old riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: yep.

They, they run cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: or 10, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: grazing out with the cow all winter.

At that point when we wean, we will cut the bull calves and so then the heifers and those, then steers will get thrown together into the yearlings bunch.

So they, because they're basically fresh weaned calves, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: run together until about the middle of August and then we'll pull the heifers out of that bunch and throw them back in the cow herd right prior to throwing bulls in about the cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, okay.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: 18th of August.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So the steers will finish out in a group of their own, and they'll leave usually mid-October is when we get, when we sell those steers, I.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So the heifers are back in the herd and they're breeding with your main herd.

You're not doing anything special to get those those heifers bred the first time.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

Yeah.

They they, they, yeah, they just run like the cows do, you know, and sometimes they don't I shouldn't say sometimes they don't.

But like as rough as they're ran, they don't always mature out as fast.

They're kind of slow growth cattle, which grass cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And so it's it's kind of interesting watching that all unfold as we kick 'em back into the.

the main herd and, and watch 'em breed.

You know, sometimes that heifer breed up isn't the greatest, we've actually found that if we will just keep the top end of those that were open, then we can run 'em another year.

It doesn't cost us anything to run 'em, like it actually benefits us to have those numbers then cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: let ' em grow out and mature.

Then they'll stay in the cow herd for quite a while.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So, so you're having some at 24 months, but there's some, you'll keep the top end that didn't breed at that point and they can ke it three years and stay in.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right?

Yep.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I think that's an interesting discussion.

We had GBT on here and we were talking about them and they were gonna try some three year olds versus two because they're doing some slow growing or growing only on grass.

And I know for us here, sometimes we have trouble getting those 15 month old heifers big enough to breed on time.

And that breed up is not as high as we'd like.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

And I don't know that it's so much for us, a matter of size, because we've had some really little heifers cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you know, they're breeding at six, six and a half, and I mean, they're maturing at thousand pounds when they're a 5-year-old cow.

You cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that's, that's pretty little you're, when you're breeding up there, but they'll breed up then It's just, I cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: just a matter of, I'm not sure, maturity or something.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I, I don't know.

We, we had one year out of one set of one, one bull.

We had used, we had a fair number, we had a young bull with them.

We didn't think they would breed, and we cave out a fair number of heifers at 21 months and we're like, we're having trouble getting this group to breed at 15 to 16 months.

And here we've got this group that's Kev at 21.

So.

We haven't necessarily been trying to repeat that, but we've been trying to get better on that U using some of those genetics and stuff because we're like, why did that work then and not these other times.

It's one of those things when you think you know best, you don't.

Now with your your forages, we talked about the forages and forage changes.

One thing you've mentioned throughout this, which I really love the term, is insurance pastures.

So let's talk a little bit about your insurance pastures.

Why do you call 'em that, and how much of your ranch is the insurance pastures?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So insurance pastures were a, a new thing that we'd picked up from our, from our conversation with Ian.

Because we, well to, to be, I guess to begin with, when we really wanted to step forward and, and try to up the production on our ranch, we had to know in our own minds that we weren't shooting ourselves in the foot.

Like, what if this fails miserably and I graze cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: of the ranch, and oh my goodness, it does not recover.

Like, what cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And so first idea came about when, how do you, how do you effectively double your stocking rate or know that you can double your stocking rate?

You cut your ranch in half and you take your same cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and you cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: sounds so simple.

When you, when you, sorry, Riki, you cut your wrench in half.

That sounds so simple, but that's not the immediate, you know, at first you're like, well, what do I do?

But it's just so simple.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: yeah, it was like a light bulb moment.

Huge.

You know?

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So then what's the other half of your ranch become?

It becomes the insurance for, if you screwed up so bad on this half of the ranch, still have half of it available.

If you have to destock, great destock, but you still have grass to go to or a pasture that's gonna grow again next year, know, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: if you damaged it that bad.

And cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that's where the insurance thing came from.

Well then we also knew that we had two separate things that we needed to keep separate.

And so we had our main cow herd and we had our yearlings and so we had to designate some grass.

both places.

So, you know, ended up at, there are some times when we are literally grazing both of those herds of cattle on half the ranch and the other half is literally resting.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: if we should happen to get a hailstorm or a fire come through in the middle of a grazing season, what?

We're pulling pastures out of insurance like cattle, you're going here, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: longer available.

So it just, it opened up a lot of opportunities for us to do some different things.

thing with it, like last year, July 2nd, was the last measurable rain or precipitation we got until November.

All that pastures that we had planned in April saying, Hey, these are all gonna be insurance pastures.

weren't afraid of not getting any more moisture or the fact that it hadn't rained because we knew were keeping these as vegetative as we could, and we had this stockpile already set aside.

So now like, yep, we're gonna kick into an insurance pasture to let these have, you know, 60 days rest and maybe it'll rain in that amount of time so we can get them to regenerate.

And so that's really how we use them.

And they truly are just that.

They're insurance against poor, poorly placed bets.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

And do you, you are holding off of grazing them during the growing season.

Is that the only time you're holding off of them or do you, you let 'em rest even longer?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That's usually the only time we hold off of them.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and they might only be insurance for a part of the grazing season.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: You know, we may, we may plan on using them and then in June we're like, oh my goodness, we cannot stay ahead of this grass growth.

And so then we start kicking more pastures after we maybe grazed them once, kicking them to insurance and tightening up the area that we're grazing to try to keep it vegetative and, and high quality for as long as we can.

the other side is when you pull 'em out of insurance.

So ideally we try to keep 'em in there for a full grazing season but it might be shorter or longer.

And then.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Then the other, the part is, is want to come, and this is why we bring in winter cattle, is we need cattle in here to clean off all that stockpile and trample it down and get it cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: and start building the, the soil.

Then, you know, we're armoring it with all that forage that was still standing, but we're also able to harvest so much of it as well and capitalize on that extra stream of income with those custom grazed cattle without damaging our pastures.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I don't know if I've heard the term insurance pastures before.

I'm apt to, I don't know if Ian uses it.

I've heard him speak, but I don't know.

When you said it today, I'm like, I love that name.

You know, it's a nice, easily identifiable term for you're setting that pastor aside.

It's, it's in case we need it.

In fact, when I get off here, I gotta talk to dad.

We're talking, we weren't gonna bail any hay, but we've got lots of grass, so we're thinking about bailing a little bit of hay, but we're gonna start using that term insurance pastures and those that we stay off of just in case we need 'em.

I love that terminology.

So let's, let's, transition just a little bit, Riki, and let's talk about your school coming up.

You have a school coming up, I should know.

I don't have it up on my screen, but riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I believe cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I believe it's in July riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: the 11th.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: There we go.

So tell us about your school.

Tell you.

Tell us what, well, first just tell us about your school that's coming up.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Okay.

So yeah, it's July 7th through the 11th.

And what Justin and I have gone to doing, I think we started this in 2020 after we wrapped our minds around what Bob had taught us and everything, and we saw the powerful effect of it.

We thought, you know what, we'll, we'll branch out and offer it because we have the opportunity to bring people here and show them what a rebooted herd looks like, what our grasses are looking like.

When you can look across the fence and see a fence line difference, you kind of cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: oh my goodness, know, things are different on this place.

Why are they different?

And so we give people then that the hands-on teaching of all the stockmanship techniques that are required in rebooting the cow herd.

We go through the math of our planned migratory grazing system so that people understand how it ties into the IMG and how this whole system, I mean, it, it really is holistic, it all ties together.

To form what we have created here and been able to do in, in shrinking our animal units per acre.

So it's, it's a week long, it's intense.

When the class is full, then we're looking at 10 to 12 hour days in the saddle just to make sure everybody gets hands-on time.

The, the fewer class people that I have in attendance, I mean three is the minimum that I can have, five to six is optimal because then we're, you know, eight hours a day in the saddle, everybody's got hands-on.

Everybody's been able to practice the techniques and see how the herd is affected and, and get 'em to move to you.

We actually ha I have some neighbors that are allowing me to utilize their cattle that are not rebooted hope cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: nice.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: attend the school also to learn these techniques.

And so it's kind of like my little bribe.

They're like, Hey, I'll teach ya, but I gotta use cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: don't know anything about this.

And so, you know, we work on fresh cattle, we work on our cattle, our yearlings, our pears, because every animal class responds differently and there's different cues and signals and things that you have to pay attention depending on the class of the animal being lings, being cow calf pears that are baby versus cow calf pears that are three to four months old versus dry cows.

know, there's cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: bunch of different nuances there.

So we try to get a variety of, of cattle that you're handling and things like that.

And we spend a week, ne, I mean my cattle are rebooted, so we don't even have to spend the week on my cattle.

That's why my neighbors are really chomping at the bit for this is, they get their cattle rebooted in that week.

I.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

So what does someone who, who's interested in coming, what do they need to do?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: They need to have a horse and they need to have the ability to ride and, and get their horse to do some basic horsemanship maneuvers and then show up and be ready to camp out on the Prairie and just enjoy Wyoming.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So, so I'm understanding correctly they're bringing their horse out there and going through the course.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

They'd show up with their horse and, and then we would just, we'd go play Cowboy on the range cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yes.

and riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: to set it up because I know when we were learning trying to get to seminars and everything, it seemed like I.

You know, the, whatever venue was hosting, they always wanted their cut of people were bringing in.

And so, you know, they provided your meals, but the meals were gonna cost you $50 a day.

And I'm like, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: for a lot less than $50 a day, you know, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: here's your hotel room, but it's 180 cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Mm-hmm.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And I'm like, know, the people that are, that are truly need this, isn't where their focus is.

And so I really try to do it as bare bones as I can.

And, and I'll be upfront with you.

I'm like, you know what?

We're eating, you're packing your own lunch.

So bring a cooler, I'll supply ice.

You're gonna bring your own lunch, you're gonna cook your own meals at night over a campfire or a grill or whatever you want.

You know, you're gonna fix your own breakfast.

If you eat breakfast in the morning, if you don't, great.

then, you know, like, you wanna sleep in your horse trailer, you can't.

Or you have a tent or, or whatever.

Or Lus is 20 miles away.

Down a gravel county road.

So, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: if you wanna go stay in a motel or hotel, I shouldn't say motel.

If, you know, if you, if you need a, a bed and you, you know, you're just not up for camping, the horses can stay pinned out here at the ranch.

And then there are motels in Lusk, there are restaurants available, you know, so there is that also.

But really the aspect sometimes I think the fun of it is when you actually do get to come camp on the range and be a part of the ranch.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I am not even sure that's not a tourist opportunity right there just to let 'em for a week cowboy with you and camp out on the range.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

I'm probably missing something there in agritourism.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

That's what I'm thinking.

I'm thinking that sounds fun for a couple days then I'd have to recoup because I'm pretty sure I can't sleep on the ground that long, but, you know.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And you know, it's amazing.

I never gave it a thought when, when we first started this, we were day working a lot and 10, 12 hours in the saddle was no big deal for us.

You know?

And, cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: are like, yeah, I ride all the time.

And then they'd show up and, and by day three you're really starting to feel it.

And I feel it now that I've gone back to teaching and I'm like, Ooh, is a little rough, this many hours in the saddle.

yeah, you want, you want a taste of true cowboy life.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

I, I think so.

Yeah.

It wouldn't, it wouldn't take too long.

Is there anything else you'd like to share about your school coming up or about your operation before we move to Famous four?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: And I think we've covered, covered a lot of it.

I just, know, if you're, if you've got brittle, brittle, arid country and you're trying to find that.

way to get over the hump on this deal it really is worth looking into and investigating a little bit further.

And if you're a horse oriented outfit, it's a, it's a great fit.

It's, you're not babysitting your cows.

You reboot ' em and you ride away and, and they do their own thing for however long they're supposed to be in that pasture.

So that's, you know, I, I just try to get 'em people as much information as I can through our school, not only with the IMG stuff, but with the planned migratory grazing as well, and just all the pieces that I have gathered up over the last cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Now, I try to teach, I just try to convey to people and, and pass on my knowledge, and that's really what I'm after, is just passing the knowledge on.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

I, I think it's a wonderful thing.

I, I hope you have lots of people and y'all have to spend too long in the saddle each day.

Moving to our famous four questions, Today's Famous Four questions are sponsored by Grazing Grass Insiders.

Our Grazing Grass Insiders have greater access to behind the scenes on the podcast, as well as some other benefits, and they support this podcast, making sure it goes further.

And to be honest, the behind the scenes and access to other things we're working on here has not been very good in the past.

I have a couple things in the works.

And hopefully those will be out soon and our insiders will reap the benefits from that first.

But insiders, I appreciate you supporting the podcast and helping us keep this going.

If you'd like to be an insider, you can go over to grazinggrass.

com and click on insiders.

It has it there and you can join and help us get these episodes out each week.

I appreciate each and every one of our insiders.

Thank you.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: same four questions we ask of all of our guests.

Our first question, what's your favorite grazing grass related book or resource?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Oh cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I know you're starting to say Bob Kinford, he's got a lot of stories, but let's go beyond Bob.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: no, I, I'll definitely probably have to go beyond Bob.

So it's been a while since I've read.

I'm trying to think.

Actually, we started on a lot of Jim Gareth's stuff and cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: of key pieces to that.

I like listening to Ian Mitchell Enni and his ideas.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: walt Davis had a lot of key cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: pieces of information there too.

I, I really, I cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: reading his books and the, and the little tidbits of knowledge that, that he puts out there too.

I'm trying to think, who did Knowledge Rich Ranching?

That one was a cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: All Nation.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That one was, you know, it was early on in, in oh 8, 0 9 probably when I read it.

And it kind of snap started snapping some pieces into place for us too, or, or at least verifying that we were on a path of some sort that somebody had traveled with success.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

All those people you, you mentioned are great resources on Ian Mitchell Enus.

Do you know where, does he have any video?

I know he is, got a few videos online.

Is there anything online that you, that you really point to with his stuff, or is it more in person?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I could say it's more in person.

I did run across and I haven't had a chance to, to fully watch it, but just recently did an interview with him and I'm trying to think who that was.

I found it on YouTube and I started listening to it Justin and I were, we were getting ready or something to go somewhere and I just kicked it on and they'd just gotten to the point of talking about some of the stuff that was really mind blowing to us at the time and cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: a road.

And I'm like, that's the stuff.

And he is like, yeah, it is.

And then we had to go and lost service.

And so I cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I do know that there is that video out there that was had.

And I like say, for the life of me, I can't think of the name of it.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh, I'll have to look and see if I can find it.

Our second question, what's your favorite tool for the ranch?

I, I thought it might be your horse.

He, how many horses do you have that you ride regularly?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Let's see, I have two.

Justin has two.

Royal has one, and then we got a bunch of colts kinda coming up that shift in and out of our cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: But we, we each have two main go-to horses.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Two regulars.

Yeah.

Right.

During, during your school, will you use those interchangeably, or in your mind, are those horses interchangeable with your herding, with your stockmanship?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: They really are.

We, we found early on that even like.

We can take a, a very green cult, a cult with not much experience and not, not very much as far as a handle on 'em, still be able to shape them up and get a, the response we need from our, our cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yes.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you know, it, it's not uncommon for us then to go ahead and ride a green horse at our school.

Like day one, I'll probably be on a solid horse and so I can show the techniques and I can make sure they're all right.

But then from that point forward, I may jump onto a green one and be like, well, here we go.

Now we're on a young horse.

You can see how they handle and cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: what, this is what it's going to be like for you when you go home and your horse, you know, is fresh or new, or you step on a different horse that hasn't been to five days of the school and different things like cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Which, which I think is really beneficial for people learning to see, hey, your horse doesn't have to be a veteran with this to be able to do this.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Right.

The, the cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: certainly are fun and they, they allow you to get a little bit lazy because the cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: it doesn't take long and the horse figures it out.

Like, I have one little marere and you'll be riding along and you'll be kinda watching up there.

And she's watching behind her, you know, she's watching everywhere where you might be focused on one thing and all of a sudden if you're not, like, if you're not paying attention, she'll just stop in reverse and like just turn and then you'll look like, oh yeah, the cow stopped and she's already pulling cows back past her on her own.

I'm cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Glad you're here.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yeah, yeah.

I'm cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: I'm here.

You got this.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I should have just sent you out here to do it.

Yeah.

Our third question, what would you tell someone?

Just getting started?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Learn.

Learn as much as you can.

And.

Learn from as many people as you can, because even if you only took one thing away from every individual you ever encountered, your toolbox is overflowing.

You know, lifelong learning is, is huge.

And even, you know, we talked earlier in the episode about being humbled by Mother Nature, but yet those lessons we're still learning because sometimes when you're on the forefront of things and you know technique, yeah, it's been proven, but it's still pretty experimental.

Like that's the phase that I feel like we're in.

Like we're experimenting with this.

How far can we push this?

What can we do?

there's nobody out there laying the path for us, but yet we're cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Right.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: as we go.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

Excellent advice there.

Yeah.

If, if, and, and I think, and I apply it to myself, if I can take one thing from every episode that I've done on the podcast, I ought to be much better than I am.

I guess I'm just a little slow.

I'll work on that.

Our last question of our famous four, how can others find out more about you?

And the course.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: So Bob Fer does have a migratory grazing website.

There's a lot of information there.

It's, it's kind of abstract because it's such an abstract topic.

Like it's, there's not gonna be a lot of information told to you on how to do it, but there is some information out there on what it is.

I, I don't have a website personally.

I kinda utilize Facebook a little bit.

There is a little bit out there on YouTube.

If you, if you searched up my name, Riki Kramer's.

There's some different stockmanship things that we've done, some drone videos that we've done of our herd.

If, if that interests you and, and what our herd is doing and those little clips that I've put out, then, you know, feel free to reach out to me.

Facebook message me just figure out how to get ahold of me.

I guess.

I, it's not that hard.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

You know, Facebook works for so many people and then obviously they could email you as well.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Yep.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah.

And as the last of the famous four, but we got one more question to wrap up.

Do you have a question for me?

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Do I have a question for you?

Do you, do you intend to keep doing these podcasts?

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I, I, I plan on not stopping because they are so beneficial for me.

This IMG I'm not going to do it here.

My environment's different.

We don't use horses.

It's not something I think would benefit me here.

But did I gain something from the conversation I did besides just the, the.

The getting to network with someone and learning about your operation.

But, and I mentioned this, this insurance pastures, I love that term.

I love the idea of it.

I'm going to run with that.

Um, so just picking up something from each episode, and I mentioned this an episode or two ago, that, you know, when you go to conferences, you come back, you're kind of energized people that's going and go to your school, they're gonna get home, they're gonna be excited.

Well, we don't all have the opportunity to go to conferences every time we need a shot of motivation, but these podcasts can be that, and me having these opportunities to talk to people that's in the trenches doing it they just energize me and motivate me to do a better job.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: Absolutely.

I'm glad to hear cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: So, riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: you're so right.

Like, you know, just, just, you know, use the insurance pasture idea there.

That, and that just those little tidbits sometimes cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: that somebody needs on getting them over that hump and, and down the next path.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: I, I so agree.

Just to continue on that, if we look at someone where they are and we think, how do we get there, that's too big a leap.

If, if yourself in 2002 or 2007 looked at where you are right now, you might say, we'll never get there.

But by taking these little steps, these little tidbits from everyone, you're going to eventually get there.

But you gotta be careful not to think, oh, I gotta make that huge leap today because that's daunting and will cause us to give up too soon.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: That's, that's one thing that we've done is, and I, I provide it to our, my students when they come to the school, is a book that we've put together, not only on the, on the stockmanship techniques and the grazing plans and everything, but it also outlines our journey.

And that you see that we went from two pounds ahead of a cake down to a half a pound a day, and just those little incremental changes that we made over time.

And finally it got to the point where we could totally change directions in a positive way, you know, the cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Oh yeah.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: wanted to go.

cal_1_05-31-2025_155407: Yeah, yeah.

That's excellent.

Riki, really Appreciate, you coming on and sharing with us.

riki-kremers_1_05-31-2025_145407: it's been great.

I Thanks, I thank you for the opportunity, Cal.

This is our second episode we've had about instinctive migratory grazing.

Bob Kin Ford was on here, and I should have looked up that episode number I'm thinking in the nineties.

I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but really excited to have Riki on to share about their operation.

You know, when I first hear about it.

I'm like, does this really work?

Is it a valid program?

But based upon talking to, to Riki and talking to Bob and seeing the numbers that Riki shared with us, as well as she sent me another um, file with more information, it does look like it works.

She has greatly improved her stocking rate.

How many or carrying capacity?

So if you are running animals.

And you use horses with them and you are a bigger area thinking, I don't know about this electric fence.

This may be the thing you're looking for.

So I encourage you to check out her school, look into more information at Bob's website.

I think it's all very interesting.

Now, my biggest takeaway though.

Is the insurance pastures.

And I'm sure you, you knew that from my conversation with Riki.

Um, I love that idea.

I love the terminology insurance pastor.

Um, in fact, I told Riki after the, or at the end of the conversation, I'm gonna start using it and I have talking to my dad.

We've got some pastures that we've identified as insurance pastures.

We're not going to touch 'em unless we have to.

And if, if we don't touch 'em, then we're gonna have old growth there, then we can decide what to do later on.

But the last few falls have been really dry.

We fed way too much hay last fall.

So hopefully these insurance pastures will help in that way.

Um, I, I'm curious what you think about insurance pastures.

Are you doing that?

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