All right, welcome back to Babylon.

We are the podcast.

We are watching and reacting and discussing and breaking down episodes of Babylon five.

We just watched season two, episode six, A Spider in the Web.

Jenny, I'm a big fan of the show, watched it a few a few times, watch it through a few times.

That's what I meant to say.

I am Jen, I'm a writer, I'm a screenwriter and a ship runner, and I have watched the show.

I watched the show a long time ago, and I'm watching it through now again.

I'm Gus, I'm an actor.

This is my first time watching Babylon five.

I'm Ali and.

I'm an actor and a screenwriter, and this is my first time watching Babylon five.

Yes, this episode we just watched.

It was written by Larry Dittilio.

Hi, Larry Banger, Yes, and.

Directed by Oh gosh, my vision.

I'm I don't remember the English word.

I have the It's Noah and Korean old lady eyes.

There's another word for that in English.

I don't know what.

It's called.

Near sighted.

Kevin Gan, Kevin Greman.

First, what's the director?

It is his first he's a newbie.

Good for him.

He gave us a good one.

However, he was the production manager on Star Trek the motion picture.

Oh interesting, the movie that is a two hour long shot of the ship flying into a.

Two hour long, beautiful, long slow shot of that ship.

Just enjoy it when you watch it, Just go on the ride.

I'm just still stuck in the fact that my I'm a native English speaker who forgot the English word and only remember the Korean one.

Oh, that's awesome, weird, so sick weird.

I'd feel like I'm fucking fluid if I did that.

No, I'm not.

That's the problem.

I'm getting worse at English and I'm not getting better at Korean.

The Babylon Podcast was our last best hope for a deep dive, self contained discussion for hosts.

Strong located in the neutral territory of the Zokolow, a place of commentary and analysis for two veterans and two newcomers, a shining beacon of fandom, all alone in the streaming void.

It was the dawn of the streaming age, the year the great theories came upon us.

All.

This is the story of Babylon.

The year is twenty twenty five.

The place wherever you get your podcasts.

So yeah, thoughts on this episode this was I am sorry, I just have to start say yeah, yea yeah.

I can't believe that I don't have a single piece of Xanadu or Grease paraphernalia anywhere within reach, within arms reach.

I could nak the room and I would bring up plenty.

I know, I know, but I would just like to point out that we have our seventies music calls, movie musicals, and we have Jeff Conaway like showing up randomly as a security guard.

It was like, I recognize his voice when he came over the thing, it's Kaniki.

You got a your grin was like, it was like it was.

I agree so much, Kaniki.

And I would like to point out that he played Kanicki in the movie, but on Broadway he played Danny.

And then and then they were like, we're gonna coach Jean Devolda because we think he's O no, and so he took Nicki.

But he's a great Kaniki.

And then Michael Beck, who is the lead in Xanadu, which might be one of the worst movies in the seventies from both Olivia Newton John's and they're wonderful and the music from Sanad is amazing.

It's yellow and Olivia jo John Broa.

So I just wanted to say that I was really enjoying this one.

And your acting coach and my friend, you're acting coach Gridley shows up for the win.

It's got everything.

This is an episode that has everything.

It is.

It is.

Ring yeah, acting coach yes, Ki yes.

And.

Jessica what's her name?

Walter Walter's thinking.

Yeah, it was like packed it.

Yeah, it's not great actors.

M because that is true.

There are people.

I mean, we had Barkley in the last episode.

Why do I recognize that guy?

The guy who played Taro.

Oh, you know, I looked him up.

I mean he was he literally guest starred on every single show ever, and.

I believe it because I've seen this, But I feel like I.

Knew him too, And I was like I couldn't.

I mean, I was scrolling watching but I couldn't find what exactly thing I knew him from die Hard.

Yeah, yeah, he's the guy who dies and die Hard.

There's a lot of guys who die and die.

But he's he's the guy.

He's the guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.

He's the he's the like guy that gets shot in the head.

Yeah, he's the he's the boss.

Yes, he's the boss.

And die Hard.

I knew it.

I knew.

I was like, I have seen this man.

That's what I missed so many time.

Okay, wait, go back, I want to see if there's anything else.

But that was the that's the big one that I was.

Uh, he's been in a lot of stuff.

Yeah, I definitely die Hard.

I was, oh sure that I haven't seen.

He's been in a bunch bunch of stuff, none of which I've seen except for die Hard.

Yeah.

Well die Hard was the big one.

Guy.

I knew.

I've seen him before.

I was like, this man looks so familiar to me because I see him every Christmas.

A wonderful Christmas movie.

It is it is, yes, yes, a wonderful Christmas movie.

Yeah.

This was an episode.

This was interesting, This is this is This was very different, I feel from a lot of the other ones.

Yeah.

It weirdly, it feels a little bit signs importancy in that I got more of a vibe of okay, time to set up a bunch of pins than I did any real resolution.

I mean, there have been things that have been kind of played with and tossed around and hinted at prior to this episode, Mars Colony being an issue, cy Core fucking with things and you know, being this rogue actor behind the scenes, personality manipulation.

All these things have been I know, not necessarily what they did wasn't necessarily the cheese whiz.

Maybe it was the cheez whiz, but a lot of things that have been hinted at but have never really come together.

All of a sudden, we're like, and now this is stuff that matters.

And on top of that, we're going to put a dan neumone in the episode where Sheridan is like, by the way, because I wasn't in season one, I can just have knowledge that you guys didn't have.

There's a thing called Euro thirteen and they're a problem.

And now this is going to be an ongoing plot.

Apparently is dealing with Euro thirteen, which is apparently it got bad PSI Core psychops and it maybe she was calling herself thirteen because she was reporting from Euro thirteen, or maybe she is like agent thirteen.

I don't know, but you know, like because I was watching, I was like, there's a lot of very slow talking.

There's really only one plot.

Yeah, Like I can't really think of like a b plot to this episode.

Everything kind of hung together around Trow and what's this that the oh my god Zandadu guy Abel Yeah, yeah, able, it's not corn.

It was something like corn worn horrible able corn and and yeah, I don't know.

I liked it.

It was very good, but I was like, this feels very different from most of the episodes we've watched lately.

It was definitely like this by the week episode, and I was kind of likely, are we watching Scarecrow and Missus King here?

Are watching Babylon Five?

Because Bruce box Fltner was like, hmmm, I have, yeah theories and I've got like I collect them and I know this stuff and I'm not going to tell you now.

I'll tell you in a minute, which is really fun.

I super enjoyed it, but it was also off not off.

Brand numbers another show from this era.

Well, it's also numbers later than.

This, but yeah, I mean I thought maybe it might be later, but I'm not used to seeing to seeing the Captain slash Commander just do this thing where he kind of goes off on his own and does this whole investigation, like Jeff never really did.

He would be Jeff wished guns of blazing front and center for stuff, but I never really saw him like sitting alone in his room except in eyes when he was looking up litigation and legislation surrounding himself and ari ebn Zay as.

Aside, bring Back Numbers, Reboot Numbers, Reboot Cold Case, Cold Case Hit Cold Case was reboot Numbers, reboot Cold casey the gen we'll pitch it.

It sounds good.

I'm in, came in, but I liked it.

I feel like this one was.

Like it was the very slowly kind of unraveling mystery.

Like the entire time, it didn't feel like it wasn't a break neck pace, like it was just very slow.

Well yeah, and I think that's part of that's because there's only one plot.

Yeah, aside from like giving us some Talia Garibaldi stuff going on, you know, as our which was not really a full B plot just but that's what kind of kept our attention when we weren't completely focused on this stuff.

So I've had this experience down a few episodes.

We've talked about it before, and I you know, I'm going back to the old commercial structure, and I had just sort of forgotten because television isn't written this way anymore, and I keep getting jarred by it in this show.

And then I'm like, oh, yeah, right, we had to come back after the last commercial for the last little wrap up because I keep thinking the show's done.

I keep thinking it's over.

And then all of a sudden, we're in Sheridan's quarters and he's like, let me tell you these big, really fucking bomb dropping secrets.

And I was like, oh, this isn't just the friend's cold clothes, Like, this isn't just the like boo boo boop.

There's actual shit getting told to us.

But the story's over.

It's really fun.

It's really interesting and fun, and.

I like structure has changed changed, and it's.

Really it's fun.

I'm enjoying it, and I'm like, hmm, maybe I'll be putting that back in something I'm writing soon, just because it's kind of fun.

It's kind of nice to I love button, a dramatic button.

It's dramatic and full of sorry and full of information, like it's not just something that you could oops not watch.

Yeah, yeah, well it kind of reminds me of Contagion Star Trek Next Generation episode one, season one.

I was a yeah, where it looks like they're setting there's these little parasite things in guys heads and at the end it looks like they're setting it up to be a longer term big bad and it's that's basically the hook, the tag at the end of the episode.

Unfortunately, that went nowhere I'm sorry spoilers for Next Generation because the network was like, that's too violent, too creepy, and too weird, so they turned it into the Boorg instead.

But it's kind of thing where it was like, here was a weird thing that was happening, and now we're gonna cover this other thing.

Hi, PD, why are you over here?

Would you like to come back on the couch?

Would you like to go over there?

You can't come through this way?

Are you stiffing at my old sojiu bottle from last episode that I haven't gotten rid of because I'm a slob.

You said it, not me.

I'm just teasing.

I've just teased, just.

Kidding, kind of roast.

Anyway, I went to jump back to something the Garibaldi Talia of it all, like that scene.

Obviously, I feel like they're very clearly like, look at these.

Two flirty I believe that was.

Yeah, o god, but they're married at this point and like, yeah, so I'm wondering if that was like the show being like.

Oh, I did think they had a remarkable chemistry.

I was thinking that I did.

I was like, oh, they had they have.

Really good chemistry.

And then I know now they're married and that makes sense.

Yeah, did they meet on the show.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure, Yeah, they met on the show.

I'm pretty sure that I don't know the date of their wedding, but just looking at the year, it looks like they married in between season one and two.

That's fast, No, I mean people were only married for two.

Years, so well, you know, what are you doing?

Sorry?

Yeah, but anyway, I would like wonder if they wrote that into the show, because.

Yeah, go lie on.

He wants to go lie on that instead.

The random is much too small, staring at the posters behind you, trying to see if I can I'm.

Sorry, I'm trying to very small pillow.

He's trying to come here, come here, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

So much more comfortable.

Well, we're supposed to keep talking, Yeah, exactly, Kanickie Canni get for the wind you from Kanneki.

Yeah, No, it was fun, it was really I was.

I'm sorry, Like all of my fangirl stuff came out in that episode, all the way down, all the way down to I'm like embarrassed that I don't I didn't recognize any Gridley and now I just so.

I just looked her up.

She stik up to an acting school.

She left the one where she was teaching when I studied with her.

But she's a phenomenal acting coach.

Anybody out there listening is looking for an acting coach.

Let me please recommend Danny Gridley.

She's great.

But okay, I'm also horrified that I didn't remember her face.

I didn't recognize her.

Oh pet, Oh my gosh, yes let him, he let him?

Oh oh my God made me.

He does this all day every day.

Wanted to be wed love.

This was good.

I feel like I should have more to say about it, but I really don't.

You said that you felt like they were setting up pins.

What are the Yeah, what are the pins that you think are.

Being set upan You're thirteen is the biggest one, further exposing corruption within psycorps, or further exposing this psy corp is a corruptive influence is one Talia having a graduate turning relationship with psychor is.

The deconstruction of Tally Hawai.

The existence of distance of somebody called Control on Babylon five is one, because they talked about he thinks control.

He thinks this control.

He thinks that somebody on Babbel.

The fact that there must be somebody on Babylon five who made the back door into the system for those guys, I mean, like I want to.

Part of me was like, I go back and rewatch the entire fucking show to see if anybody else has given that command code that the guy got.

He gave a I don't know what it was.

He gave a code.

It was like GG six something, And I remember people having given codes like that before.

I remember who, and I remember what they were.

But you know, it feels like this feels yeah.

This I'm I'm I'm drawing parallels based on what I have watched and also things you have told us about on podcast about previous episodes, like to do with Takashima stuff, where now I'm like on Hilert people being plugged into this other group.

It feels like it's the same group.

It feels like you're with The teen is also the group that was probably behind killing Santiago.

I imagine trash Jim is part of Bureau thirteen, and I imagine that Jack is part of Bureau thirteen.

So now I find it.

I imagine that probably the intention would have been the Takashima was part of Bureau thirteen based on what you mentioned at one time.

So now I'm like, okay, So if knowing that there was a way to deduce from the pilot that Takashima had done some shady shit with her entry code, you said, if you look to see what code was put in, you would be able to tell that it was Takashima.

Now I'm like, okay, So somebody must have given that code at some point over the course of the season, because Jams does shit like that.

So now I'm like, well, can I go back and rewatch all of it and see who said that.

I have a feeling that's what will be probably what.

I'll be doing this week, But I don't know, you know, I mean, there's there's Mars.

That's while I reorganized the bedroom because I've been getting rid of clothes.

The Mars stuff is clearly still very important.

Mars is still a big Mars's a big, big deal, you know.

Again, Like I said this during I felt like Mars is going to be a big deal, and so I feel vindicated.

I was like, no, they wouldn't.

I just felt like I was like, we need internal strife.

Yeah, no, lease yet, because then it's like, can we put.

Aside our differences and come together to fight a bigger existential threat or will our individual bullshit prevent us from.

Like basically is sure mutually is your destruction?

Yeah?

The leading forward leading things gives Talia something to do.

Tellia hasn't had a plot.

I'm so happy Talia has a plot.

I've been wanting the Telepaths to have a plot for so long.

I also love that we got some backstory for her, even though I was like Talia the traumatized girly and me also recognized as a traumatized girly in you and telling a story that you think is charming that is actually trouble.

I mean, have we all had I once?

No, here's a story.

I'm not going to tell it here because it is horrific.

Now that I have actually thought about it.

But I was telling somebody a story about a funny thing that happened that I had told before and people had laughed.

And this person didn't laugh.

Jenny, you were sexually assaulted.

I was like a.

Step by step, but I was like, oh my god, oh my, I have had nothing that well.

I've had many a story where I was like, this is like a funny, charming story about whatever, or like like romantic story or whatever, and gus or good friends have gone Ali, that's a deeply troubling story, but you should not tell at parties like it's a funny story.

And I learned then and now I just go, if you don't find me funny, you're not traumatized enough.

But yeah, but yeah, no, that's that's I think a canon event amongst traumatized people.

That is the I'm telling a funny story and now I'm watching everyone's faces go horrified.

Right, and then you all just go actually, I'll just.

Go awful.

Because you want to save it.

You want to save the mother, like you don't know how to fix it.

You're like, oh no, and they don't know how to fix it either.

No one has to fix it in this moment, so you're just all looking at each other trying desperately to fix it, and there's no way to fix it.

You just have to go home and sit with that seven to ten business days about whether or not that was an actually funny story, and then you come to the conclusion that it was a fact not a funny.

Story, and then you have to talk to your therapist.

I have a question, though, because you were a really good point.

We talk often about how the different perception in the nineties of life and things that we would perceive differently today, and all four of us were like, this is not a good story telling.

Yeah, but it was not written in a way that was like clearly not a good story.

It was I can't.

Imagine you don't just because like the story is, I'm a child in an organization and I don't know anybody, and I'm scared and I'm alone, and somebody's hugging me and scanning me that so I don't know it, but they're very very nice to me for a year, and then there are signs of somebody else like that there's no way that that I I don't know, Larry.

To tell you, but like, yeah, I think I think I think we're meant to go tell you.

That's not I think so because I think it's also this episode is about you were going to say something else.

I granted, raising children in the nineties wild ideas, wild ideas about but not that.

But like that feels, Yeah, that feels on a level where I'm like that would be something where like maybe if you were writing in the World War two times or something like, oh, this is unintentionally like a horrifying story.

But I feel like, to me, like the thing that feels very real about it is the fact that she seems completely.

Unaware of how like that's how disturbing the story is.

I knew wish we'd gotten some level of reaction from Garibaldi, because he just kind of was like I gotta go, you know.

Yes, But.

But it was written that he gets pulled away instantly so he doesn't have time to respond to it.

And we did get the setup prior to this, Evanava telling Sheridan why she doesn't trust Psyche.

You know, and you can but you can trust this Winter she said, did say that specific Yeah, yeah, you don't trust Psychor but individually you can trust her.

Yeah, but she's loyal, so just know that, yeah, and that she doesn't you know, but that Psychor doesn't do good things, and we know that from Havanava, so we at least have the context of havanas Evanava saying Psycorp isn't good.

She's loyal to Psychor.

Then we hear the story about the small child being brainwashed into why she loves Psychor.

Yeah, So I do think that those points connected together to tell us hmm, maybe why she's loyal is because she doesn't know any better because she was taken when she was fine.

Yes, do you say Jedi order.

Though, I'm just like, it is fairly Jedi order.

But yeah, I hate jed I hate the Jedi Order.

I hate that I used to love them.

Now I went back and I looked up the guy's code.

It was alpha six six zeta three.

So now I'm going to have to parse through everything everything six six three, and it's going to come up nothing.

It will be a total waste of my week.

I'm done happy.

There is a dog on screen, by the way, yes, and has been a dog on screen for about two minutes, So if you want to see the dog.

And you had this in a tab go back and rewind Yes, yes, yes, he's been on the screen.

Yes, I think I don't think we were meant to be like, oh, how sweet.

I think we're like, oh that's sweet, and then think about it and go hmmm, yeah.

It's a it's a worrisome story because he's telling a story about like his father, who he did a deep personal connection with, and she's like, I had this girl for a year and I'm like, you were five, which is fucked up.

That's the deep connection she had.

Yes, yes, she's like, that's what I can think of is I I once had a woman hug me when I was five.

And make sure I wasn't going to go completely buggy and crash.

And then I was on my own after that as a six year old.

Yeah, until like now apparently like whoa, that's disturbing as fuck, Like no one was raising this child the way she like.

Always.

Yeah, her smile when she said it was crazy.

So it was so earnest and I was like, ah, girl, I've been there.

I've been there telling the story that was accidentally horrifying.

No, look at this job progressively taking up more and more of the frame, start hitting the board soon, Yeah, you so much.

He's too much.

I wouldn't bring up one one thing from the JMS Speaks section of the Larks Ny, do you have to bring this one up?

So you go ahead?

Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

This is just a little thing that's Bureau thirteen was apparently also a game in the nineteen nineties.

And so I think it's t TRPG or something like that.

I think so, so JMS wrote.

We hadn't heard of the Bureau thirteen game when we did the episode.

It was just something we came up with because it sounded neat.

Later we found out there was a game by that name, at which point, at which point I decided it wouldn't be appropriate to use that name.

But it was too late.

This is basically what he's saying.

And so he said he had a good conversation with somebody at the game company about it.

There was no problem.

I just didn't want to walk on their turf intentionally or unintentionally or otherwise.

So, you know, so he put it in there.

So it has no association with that.

It's a video game.

Okay.

I was going to say, I think it's a video game.

Yeah, yeah, like a tough thing about writing.

Sometimes you come up with a cool name, and because it's a cool name, someone else has come up with the name.

Like trying to name like like a movie or something that you're writing is such hell because you're like googling and back this was like back before they had Google really like I mean, yeah, in it's in its current iteration like so it's not like you could just check as easily.

Well, it's interesting because you know, shows studios have legal to do this for, you know, for a lot of things.

But again, back then the legal trying to look something up was a much harder task.

And you wouldn't even necessarily know what to look, like look up and see if anything is called bureau thirteen like that's what you right, So you.

Can now take you're thirteen into the into the computer and it'll tell you everything that it can find.

And which means that now when you are creating something, when you're writing something, you can't say anything because everything is something somewhere and everybody's so afraid of getting sued.

I mean, we tried to come up with a name for like, you know, a random like fair that would come to New Orleans for the show was running, you know, We're like, we're like New Orleans fair Nope, No, No La fair nope, Nolans fair nope.

Like you know, okay, not fair.

Like everything is used somewhere and legal can find it all.

So they're just like, better be safe and sorry.

I come up with something completely unique and never been seen before.

I'm possible to.

Do on a show.

I just on a show, was just writing for this year.

I had to come up with a fake game, right, the name of a fake game.

And I was like, oh fine, Like, and I came up with this with the name of a game.

Okay, can I say the name?

Probably?

I don't know.

I think the show's alreadyet right, Yeah, well.

The episodes out, we can say anything.

I mean we we can say super Mario Otasy like it doesn't matter.

Well, yeah, so I came up with this with this game, and I had a name, and and I googled first to make sure that that game did not exist, didn't exist.

Literally, like, as I'm finishing writing the episode, a game drops with that exact name, and I was like, I and I just happened to be on.

To be somewhere where I saw that.

And was like, oh shit, because it was like like within like the two months that I had come up with the episode idea and written the episode, someone I guess developed and announced a brand new game that dropped, like and I kind of want to play it just.

To see what happened, just to see it.

But we had to change it like last minute, and I came up with something else, which is now the current thing.

Watch normal m effort.

Yeah, by the way, yeah by but my episode, yeah, it was called squirreled Away, and I had to change it to squirrel Friends.

Squirreled Away.

Yes, it literally dropped like they they literally announced it like right after, like right as I was turning in the final freaking draft, and they were like, we have to change the name.

And I was like, yeah, we do, yeah, because it's because it was like a game with squirrels.

I had to change it.

Yeah, so I had to change it to squirrel Friends.

Uh, I mean, I don't know.

I turned in an episode months later that was, you know, because it refers to squirreled Away, and I still had squirreled Away in my script because I didn't see that your last one had changed.

And then they were like, oh, yeah, it's not called squirrelled away anymore.

I was like, huh, since.

When, because yeah, because it was such a last minute.

It was like a last minute, like oh shoot, like we have to change this whole episode like jokes about like the day, like it was a whole.

It was a whole, like right around around the pun being gone.

And I was like, oh great, yeah, so yeah, so I'm suing the video game.

Obviously it's a joke.

Yeah, it kind of.

It's the kind of thing that happens all the time, Like you just you know, everybody's got ideas and everybody's doing creative stuff, and it's become easier with Google.

But like the the game had no had that did not exist in any way, shape or form when I started writing it.

And it's just like that weird thing of like something's in the water and someone wrote the same came up with the same pund at the same time for a completely different thing.

I happened to beat me to the punch.

Yeah, so so wild, Yes, jerk, jerk, I gave me my game back exactly.

I I have to go back.

I have to go back to the show for one second, because of course, in that first moment, why we saw I know, I know.

Here's what I mean.

We saw Asian thirteen like speaking speaking into the microphone, acting yeah my actually, you know what's really funny.

Though as much as I was like I didn't recognize her, I recognized the mouth so well, and I was like, I know that, I know that person.

I know that to see who that is because I feel like I know that actor really well.

I was like, not on our now that like does she have a different haircut?

Is that what threw you off?

Her hair was like like twice as long like when I knew her, and like I think has been ever since, and it was that like very short haircut that completely threw me off.

Yeah, Yeah, she did good.

It's been a hot man.

Great.

She was great.

It's been a hot minute since I've seen herself.

Yeah, it was very good.

You'll have to reach out be like if.

I knowed what I was studying with her, that she was from Bablon Baiba, like it just never put two and two together and that I don't know.

I don't know why I didn't like google all the things that she'd done.

She taught a mean comedy class, though learned some great comedy from her.

She's a good, cool reading.

Fine, I am gonna pull something from the JMS Speaks section, and I'm trying to remember the.

Dates of the pit.

He says he lived in San Diego from nineteen seventy four to nineteen eighty one, so this was just sort of, he says, a way to get back to his old tap.

He got something San Diego.

Yeah, well, I ah, there is a city that one of the of all the things that happened to Jms's life, he had a bunch of horrific stuff happened.

One of them was he was almost beaten to death, like just in a random act of violence.

Wondering if it happened it was written up in the newspaper.

Oh my god, you know, like the article is in Yeah he obviously it was fine, but I'm trying to I don't remember if it happened in San Diego.

I just think it would be funny if it did.

Oh my god, the throw the whole down away, yeah, shah and all the rest of them.

That's right.

I actually met him in San Diego.

Oh Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm amazing step foot back in that place after nuking it.

So I was gonna say that what I was gonna say.

Question for him, nuke San Diego?

He says it's a week to his old hometown.

So I don't know, but I that was just the thought I had, Oh, does he just have a traumatic memory from there?

And so that's what he's done?

Like, that's really funny.

You're right, But you know what, honestly, honestly, what a way to deal with your childhood drama?

Just nuke your own town?

That was so funny.

He was an adult when that happened, like it was it was just a random.

People I know, But didn't he have like a traumatic child so too with his father being a Nazi?

Yeah, Like, I'm just like, what a way to deal with your traumatic childhood?

As a writer?

You just go like, I'm nuking my hometown and I I'm like, you know what you cooked with that?

Right?

You're right?

Yeah, I'm like, oh, that's that's that's brilliant.

Actually, Also, have you guys noticed we had talked about the special effects budget going out the budget?

God damn it, I give me five minutes.

Pet came in to say that badret.

Thank you, Pete.

You've kind of got some lounda going on with your ears perked up like that, but since the budget is higher also, like you know we've been talking about.

So here's the thing, like he Sheridan walks in and he calls ivanav a commander.

So okay, JMS now has enough clout to say, don't fucking run these out of order.

You're going to shoot it in order.

This is continuity, Like yeah, so you can see these really like the through lines of him being like, you know, really stepping into that, like this is my show, and stop telling me how to make it, you know, Like there's that, and then he's like, we're gonna fucking put everybody we want to put in this episode.

I mean, I was surprised, interestingly enough, I was surprised.

I was surprised Jeff Conaway had a Top of show because I don't think he has the lines over the over the over the thing when he calls it in, but it's barely maybe he has six lines.

He's barely barely not a co star, he's barely a guest star, barely top of show.

Of course his ninety's ever been a top show, but you know, and and uh yeah, and Annie Gridley's name.

I saw the Top show as well, and I was like, you know, she's barely in it as well.

And but then those two not those two aside, Like like we said, we just have this great cast coming in.

All the casts have been consistently the last few episodes.

We're just getting this like really fantastic.

They're bringing in top tier actors who were not getting scale.

Most of these actors are getting more than scale.

And he's got thet.

I don't go, no, I'm sorry, I won't talk about the budget anymore.

He really isn't like, uh spreadsheets, No, yeah, that makes sense.

He thinks talking about money is cross.

So gage and he's always said thought, yes, he told me so himself.

I'm just enjoying.

I'm enjoying the I'm enjoying the quality.

Like there is a higher level of production value all the way around from cast all the way.

Up, you know, even like we're talking about the sorry the slotted spoons and of you know, Bruce's quarters.

I can head canonate that the reason Jeff's quarters were so stark and empty is that like dude has a death wish, he's not really making any place home.

Bruce is like, you know, he's homie and he's decorating whatever.

But there's also probably an aspect to it of no, we've got money, let's buy stuff and actually too, yeah, you look like somebody lives here.

Like it's a different feel.

Yeah.

Yeah, yes, it's fun.

It's fun.

It's nice to see that.

It's nice to like, I feel, I feel safer.

I feel like I'm in Jms's hands now.

Where season one, I felt a little bit like I was in it.

Yeah exactly, I was in you know, the hands of like people saying well, make sure you do this, and him trying to make sure that he was couching it away that wouldn't freak the studio out, you know.

And now I feel like he's like, oh, okay, great, thanks, this is my show, here's what we're doing.

Yeah, for sure, like my show is actually successful, it's a hit.

Now I get to kind of have a little more freedom, leeway.

Oh yeah, pets back.

Oh god, heavy episode.

I am being pushed off the couch.

I'm trying not to but I want him to stay.

I am trying to update the soundboard with the budgets.

I can't move too much or he would leave me.

We are in it.

I pass at it's a very pet heavy episode and a very Talian heavy episode.

Look about it.

I go back to Talia because I thought her her arc in this episode, I don't know, because it was very It's that tag scene at the end where she's looking up besides that was very good.

Yeah, because everything else, like she's she does see that it's a psyde Corps officer, but she doesn't reveal it, but again, like she's looking into it at the end, secretly on her own, so there's like a there's movement there.

Yes, And I'm going to go back to what I was saying about, like was this just the times and they didn't recognize how creepy what she was saying was I'm a hundred percent wrong.

She you, you and you guys are all right, one hundred percent they are.

They are setting that up her.

It's just that her delivery or and her performance is so fucking good.

I am there believing her, believing that it's fine, believing that the director told her this is a really nice story, as opposed to like trusting that it's just an actor doing a really great job of telling us that she thinks it is because her looking this person up and knowing and you know, digging for it is part of her beginning of distrust.

I think like it's you know, I mean, it's a part of her deconstruction, deconstruction of the questioning of her of her childhood and like whether or not that was actually.

Good constructing our childhood.

Paity is guileless the word because that's the word that I had for this moment.

Like there was just like it was pure.

It was entirely pure.

That was a story from Talia that she thought was beautiful and wonderful.

And then she saw weird stuff in this episode and was like, we'll watch the episode.

She saw it happen in her real life and.

It was, you know, yeah, all of a sudden, she's like, wait a minute, are we the bad guys?

Which is always which is always a beat that I love for a character is the moment where they go, wait a minute.

Wait here you go, I don't at batch it?

Yes, yes, yes, love it.

Excuse me, you guys continue actually doing what matters while I do all of this halfway off the couch because of the dog.

Like definitely taking up his taking his space.

He's making can tell how heavy his head is in your arm too.

I just love to see your muscle flex.

He dead.

It's so so sweet, but I think that Okay, so this is also a testament too.

I think JMS is really really beautiful and subtle writing when he when he just digs into it, like there's this both the way that Talia talks about that, but also the way that Sheridan says, you know, he's trying to forgereut what's going on, and he's like, I think he's you know, we need to get a detail, we need to get a security detail on Talia right now.

But there wasn't like the heavy handed explanation of clearly like he's I mean, they kind of say it later, but like there wasn't just the big heavy exposition of like, well, he must be coming to her because he needs something from her, because he wants her to read his mind to save him from the thing.

I mean, they say it in a really nice and subtle way, and they say it late.

They didn't they let us go there.

They didn't.

They led us to it, but they didn't spell it out for us, which I thought was also clean and sophisticated writing.

Nice.

Yeah, there's there's less like this episode is not one of my favorites, But I do like it.

But as you're talking about that's one of the things I appreciate.

As the show gets it goes on, it holds your hand.

Less like it doesn't.

It's not like, oh, you're you're stupid, like it's no, no, you can follow this for letting you follow the story, trusting the audience, And I appreciate that.

Yeah, that that's that's the nice thing.

You know, they have the time to to to really flesh out their writing because now they have enough money so they can don't care about the Yeah, I'm sure that there have been a lot of interesting things happening in the past eight minutes.

I've only been doing that.

You haven't missed me.

I love Tally, She's great, A lot of that pity.

Yeah, I'm just always in favor of Talia getting a plot.

Yeah, I like Talia.

I don't know why I identify so hard with Talia in so many ways.

I think it's just so that I'm a deep voice, blonde woman with empathy mm.

Hmm empathy.

Reasons.

Yeah, a deep voice, blonde woman with empathy.

Ship.

But I'm every time I'm she's on, I'm like representation.

I've never I've never seen a character where I'm like, is this is this play about?

Is this play about me?

But in such a profound way.

Man, I need I need an animal.

Okay she kind of put on the screen.

Now no, no, no, no, okay, all right, all right.

I didn't think was in this episode.

But you know, here's the thing about being here's the thing about being an animal.

It's gonna happen because you just see a.

Lot more butthole in a day than you're used to, you know what I mean to say, we have to.

Explain why we're mentioning cash for the listeners because they.

Do not know that he just like pressed her buttle.

It just we saw the whole We saw the whole thing, and like this is like listen, you know, this is the thing about having animals that you just they just like we have three animals.

The amount of buttholes I see in a day is staggering.

Yeah, staggering to be whold, that's true.

Cats just sits, only they're proud of them.

Like it's like she knows the camera's right there.

He does the same thing.

She just steps up to it.

I'm three quarters of the way through Dungeon crawler Carl.

The cat absolutely knows the cameras there.

Yea, yeah, I know the cat is very very aware.

Do not know?

Every time I'm on a voice a voice called or a video, all the cat wants to show the butthole every time, every time.

And it's like, awesome, thank.

You for that.

I'm pretty good at it's hiding it.

I'm so sorry that time I could not get to her fastival.

She was very eager.

She was very eager.

We're personally traumatized by your cat's about the beehole.

You know there.

Wow, we've had even animal to caress during the podcast.

The thing about being virtual is you could just put one there.

Yeah, it's true.

We need to do another fundraising virtual cat, virtual pet.

Yeah, a virtual cat.

Yes, yes, I do highly recommend having a pet.

It is.

It is nice.

Yeah, and so was this episode.

This episode was nice.

Because like I don't recommend it actually slander aye jeezy.

I that I have any other things that I want to say in front of you.

That seems fair.

You guys go talk about Alpha six six say to three control and uh, that's what.

Jenny's my private discord Server six six say to three control.

We actually that seems fair.

All right, What is Bruce?

That's all I know.

It's not Bruce.

It's Bruce, isn't it.

We'll have fun.

It's Lace.

It's Bruce Lace.

It's Bruce bursling slurm.

No, I'm just gonna stop.

I'm sorry, I'll leave now.

Good night, my friends.

You have reached the most dangerous part of our journey.

They're Gray count Sell.

Here we speak of things that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers.

If you are not ready, turned back now that if you dare to proceed, I promise you it will be magnificent.

We forget a baldy.

O deer.

Wow.

Oh my god, I don't.

I don't have a ton I do.

I have one thing, that's all.

I mean, like, I have one thing post post uh.

But I'll let you go first because.

You think, okay, Well, the main thing I think when I watch this episode this time around, because of like trying to see what Gus and Ali were seeing, I was like, oh, yes, there's a lot of Talia and Garibaldi flooding episode.

But I always remember this episode as the one where like Yvannav confirms her attraction to taliact.

Okay, That's that's all I wanted to talk about.

That is literally the only thing I wanted to talk about.

And I was like, is it just that I'm looking for it?

Is it just that I don't there?

She's like the camera, the camera's.

Well, she's interesting.

I mean, I don't really know her that well.

But and I'm like, oh my god, you're literally.

Over the line like and you could trust the s Winters like, and I was like, oh, you missed the line where it's like I know, I've I've seen it to her person and I know that she's good.

Yeah, And so here's what's crazy to me.

So I'm I know, I'm looking for it, and obviously like I know it's there.

Yeah, I'm still shocked because I don't feel like us and Ali are picking up on it.

And I don't understand how Allie is picking up That was.

The other thing.

I mean, Ali said she sees representation in Tali, and I was like, Ali, you don't know, you don't know how much representation that is A bybel lady.

That's you.

I was just like, I was literally biting my tongue.

I was biting my tongue when you go back and edit.

Watch my face in that scene with Evana Black, because I was like, I was so excited and that I.

Was like watching your face during that scene because I was like, because I could, I'm not people are like, say, oh, the avatar helps me.

There are times when I'm editing, like during the scene where then when I talked about a lot that the Carl Sagan scene where the de lenn is giving that speech.

If you watch the reaction, I had this blissful look on my face, partially because I'm falling in love with Delenn but also being delighted watching Bruce fall in love with Delenne.

Just you straight faced, your poker face is good.

I'm just like, like hearts are floating around my face.

I was working.

I was working really hard to not show anything at that because I was just like, my little heart was going pet or patter.

I'm like, you love her.

I was like, it is so sweet.

And then every time you're Baldy would show up, I'm like, she's not interested in you, and she kind of is at this time, fine, but I was like, she's not interested in you.

Go away, go away, this is not the fine one.

Exactly exactly it's really funny.

It's really funny, and I think it's lovely that he put both of those things in this episode.

Yeah, I mean that's not he's he knew at this point he was going to.

Pursue that because that's him.

Like the way it's framed is very.

Unless, Like I don't is it.

Is it just Clinie Christian saying I've made this, I've made this choice, So I am going to play it like I'm actually.

Well, she's the one who suggested her.

Having a relationship with a woman.

Yeah, according to her autobiography, that was her suggestion.

Well I can buy that and I so that's that is a question.

I mean, I do think that JMS was probably going down that path already, and we also saw some of that, but maybe.

Yes, quite a different episode.

Remember like the switter was very very loud in your mind.

That was another thing.

Yeah, but it's but we have so just going back into like my acting days, my acting time, speaking of Annie Grinley and my acting coach.

So when I learned I became a professional actor in San Francisco where you and I've talked about this before, where you don't you rarely get a good role like this, a good meatia role that has lots of backstory, Like your job in San Francisco is to be the guest star or the co star of something that's randomly, you know, like happening.

You're never playing opposite the real character, like the actors, you're playing opposite the script coordinator.

So you've got to create all this backstory and interest for yourself.

But it's what you should do whether you're playing an under five lines or if you're playing a main character in a show.

And so I'm just going back to CLAUDEA.

Christian and her expertise at being like, Okay, I'm going to come into the show.

I'm taking the role of second in command.

I Am not going to be playing a woman trying to be a man, but I am going to be playing a woman in a position of leadership who's very strong and who's got these things.

And like Kattie Christian just being at the time, like it would make sense to me that she would be more interested in a relationship with a woman.

Yeah, you know, especially because the nineties, because that was sort of the idea too, was like, well, you can't be a woman in a powerful military role unless sure or lesbian or whatever, so like that was a very nineties thing.

But as her as the actor saying, that's a choice I want to make for my character that she's interested in women.

So she could be playing this all at this point, and its possible.

Had she made the suggestion, they were like trying to bring in an ex boyfriend for her.

According to her Autami argity, this is just from her own they were trying to bring the next boyfriend, and she started to get scared that that was going to be the only story that she ever got when it was in a Vanava episode.

So she was like, I think I think Avona was too the I think that's what it is.

I think she has to have time for a relationship.

But if you want to, I don't know.

I'd either have her with an.

Alien or a woman like that was her, like, that was her suggestion, and that's me yep.

Thanks Yeptazzi for God's sake.

And now she's gonna she's taking a bath in front of the camera.

You are just such a little hand today.

I mean, I don't even know what you can see.

It's just right now.

It's just she's sent marking the top of my computer.

Yeah, she's like spent marking the top.

Would you get off my and and she's doing things that keep literally making the Screencha get over here, come here, come here.

My gosh, she's such a little.

Oh Brett tonight.

Means this is the most animal heavy episode it is, I know.

Something else shooting on a Saturday after here in la Oh my god.

Anyway, that was the one thing I want to talking about.

I was like, I can't believe they're not seeing it, and it's so obvious to me.

But it is so but so that Okay, So when did she say that that happened in the show that she made that suggestion?

Uh, I don't know that they I don't know happen.

Well, my guess is it's that episode from season one where they brought in her ex and then she started to be scared because that was the first real Havanava episode and she just didn't want every single time, Oh we're going to do an Avana episode.

She's got an X Yeah yeah, yeah, but I just it's really nice.

There's it's very Shit's creek.

I'm guessing.

I'm guessing.

I don't Yeah, yeah, I can buy that, but it is very Ship's Creek in the show, which is like that we're not.

We just we don't have to like call it out or make an issue about it or talk about it like you never do.

No, they never do, and it's great.

But I do think it's like it's it's great clearly Cloudye, Christian has made that decision.

And I am questioning mother or not Larry de Tillio put that in there.

I don't know.

I don't know if him yeah, whether I would say for sure, I don't know what that's about Larry yeah.

And whether or not the director put it in there and said, I want to make sure we can see that you're really feeling all these feelings.

I mean they did.

They did a good job of setting on her while she did that.

So but it was I just don't understand how Ali and gust didn't like to me, it was like screaming off the screen, screaming.

My god, the same word to describe it.

But yes, it felt like it was screaming at me.

It's like it was when the camera is like, no, but she's flirting with Karaba, I'm like, no, she's not right.

Yeah, I know.

It's really fun, it's really fun.

I can't I can't wait.

I can't wait until Alie's gonna say I knew it, and I'm like, did you did you have no idea?

Or maybe maybe she's just worried about saying like you know, and Ali is worried.

Well, she's also worried about like you know, like people will always say that I'm I'm coding it that way, so maybe she doesn't.

Like when I watched Kipop deep in Hunters in my like post episode or like in the middle of the reaction, I just said, Okay, I'm sorry, I can't help it.

I'm seeing a gay like a out coming out metaphor in this story, Like that's so strong to me.

It's like screaming at me from the screen.

And I said the phrase something to the effective I know, that's the lens that I have when I'm looking at stuff, So I wonder if other people are seeing it.

And a couple of people in the comments were like, no, no, no, they they wrote this song like they wrote this song thinking that this is a coming out song, so you know, somebody, I can't remember.

It was a very kind comment.

It was something to like, it's good, it's very good to acknowledge that we all have lenses, but in this case.

No, that's you were you were just right.

It's like, okay, it was just it was so blatant, and I was like, this is this is the I'm coming out of the Closet song.

That's what the song is.

Like, that's only the song is anyway, right.

Yeah.

The other thing that I have because we know, like while having watched the show, that Talia is like she's got the cheese wiz in her brain, right, She's got the personality implanted.

I it doesn't work, but I like it because if Talia is control, then it doesn't make sense for them to have tried to kill her.

But she's the one who would make sense to be having made the back door and to be communicated because she's the one who is like, we never we never again find out about anybody else having cheese was in their brain.

Personality insurgent, by the way, that's what that is.

That's I'm realizing that's a previously joke.

On this podcast.

You don't know, uh, when we talk about personality, I put it in the previously as cheese was because of the of course, very very important commercial from the eighties that had the life che's wiz AD's personality, so that's where that's what that is.

So Talia's got the cheese wiz so she could build the back door.

But then it doesn't make sense if they are sending somebody to kill Tali, because they would know that Talia.

Is and and and his instructions from Agent thirteen from thirteen from from my instructions were kill her, right, yeah, yeah, the instructions were kill her.

It was him not killing her, not them.

Yes, yeah, because he hit the red.

The reason was because he every time he was around her, he kept reliving his death over and over and over and over again.

And you know that, I imagine that's traumatizing.

I can imagine.

I can imagine so and I was.

Wondering if they were going to call that out because I remember that when I watched the episode of oh they killed the man every time like they attacked her, there was a man who died and then she got away, a man who died and then she got away, And I started to think, well, it only happened twice, but like, oh, they're like doing the whole She's just like the final girl, like the damsel on the distress.

But then it turns out it's actually plot relevant.

And I liked that that.

It was like, oh, that's a reason it's not just yeah, you don't want to kill a girl on screen.

Yeah, So there's that as far as continuation, And of course Zach Allen showing up.

And I was like, okay, So I saw Jeff Conoway's name too, and I got very excited in the beginning, and I was like, I was crazy about Michael Beck, knowing fully full well that he's a one off on this one.

Yeah.

And then.

Yes, which is not surprising, but of course, like I know that Jeff Cottaway is coming back and gonna be much more important.

Yeah, And so I was like, Okay, I started to get exced about you Conway, and I'm like, I'm just gonna get excited about the grease part of it.

I'm gonna make it clear that it's just about the grease thing.

And I was like, yeah, it was just weird that he got top show when he's just like a rando.

Yeah.

I think I was.

Very well, but yeah, that's all those stories.

I mean, it's tragic because he also has passed away due to like I think as a result of his struggles with addiction, but at this point, I think, such a yeah he had.

He was recovering from addiction at this point.

And in jms's autobiography he talks about like he auditioned and he's like he was shocked because he's like, he's very very famous.

He was on I think Taxi Driver was the Taxi driver Taxi.

He was very famous.

And so the fact that he auditioned for a show on a network that really wasn't very well liked and.

For a role that does nothing.

He's got a couple of lines over the PA and then he like goes opens the door, he does nothing.

Yeah, It's like it shows a level of humility and a level of getting that we're all just you know, trying to get the next job exactly.

And the way JMS talks about it in the book is like he when something you know, it was I think a known thing that he had struggled with addiction, and so he's like, Okay, he's auditioning.

It's, as you said, at the level of humility, I'm gonna give him a chance.

It was very like that was the reason he was hired.

And as he like the reason Jeff Conaway's role gets bigger and bigger is because Jams could see that he was getting better and like not just better as an actor like that, but getting better in his personal life.

And he It's gonna sound very patronizing, but I just I think it's really kind.

He was like, I'm going to reward you for that.

Rule's gonna get bigger and bigger the better you get, and yeah, yeah, which, yeah, I think it's like I think that's cool to me.

Yeah, I think that's really it's a school.

It's a school of second chances, right, yeah, you know, yeah.

Anything else, anything else, I think it's something.

It feels like there's a lot of pins that Bureau thirteen feels like like that's why I behind some scenes.

I sent you that like quote ahead of time because I I'm not sure how to handle it because it never comes up.

And you never even hear Bruce fuck Sheridan talking of what have they done to my brain?

You literally never hear him talk about like his love of conspiracies.

Again, I know, I just feel like it's kind of unfair because they said this and then.

They did and it was like, yeah, that so okay, I didn't say this when we were with them, but I was like, it's why it felt off brand to me, and I was trying to sort of half say that, and then I was like, oh, I don't really want to say it like too much.

But it felt like they were like, we're going to make this be like Sheridan's going to be this guy who's got these ideas and got this stuff.

And I was like, wait a minute, we still haven't played alcohole, Like, is Sheridan actually working for Clark?

Yes, like exactly, that's still coming.

Yes, And I was like, this episode undermines all of what we're about to get to, like in terms of that because he's he straight up tells Garibaldi this is my jam and I know a lot about it.

And then and then we're still going to have Garibaldi wondering if he's in bed with Clark and so yeah, you know, I'm like okay, and I feel like they just kind of were like, we want to backtrack this because we want to create more drama with it not being sure about him.

Yeah, maybe I don't know, we'll see.

Yeah, I'm just as you're talking about that, well, that's the way that could tie into this because he's with the whole he is working with people in a conspiracy against President Clark or like investigating President Clark.

So I guess that could be part of his love of secrets, but I don't think they actually tie it in when he talks of like when that episode happens, like I don't know if they do.

I don't know if they do.

And there and there's the whole thing at the beginning of this where he's talking to Earth Force to the senator who's like blah, and then he comes at he comes at is Italia or Garibaldi, it comes to Talia and he's like, how do you know you can trust her or something?

Or no about Asgi.

He's like, how do you know that he's that he you know he wasn't.

And I was like, dude, take like you're just like taking the senator's word for it.

And then five minutes later he's like, maybe not, there's something else going on.

So I'm like, yeah, yeah, it feels a little bit oh fizz, a little messy.

Yeah, there's things like that that I get, Like the you're thirteen, I just find frustrating because it feels like it's a big deal in nothing and then you just never see that from him again.

And then the Control thing, I can't figure out who control is because Gus is right, that is implying that there's somebody on this ship or on the station who is like a mole, and that person is Tally.

But then it doesn't make sense.

So exactly, it doesn't.

It doesn't, And it's also it's also it's funny because I was like, how did I not know Annie Grindley was on Babylon five?

And I'm like, because she's never on it again?

Yeah, never, no, you know, it's just this one off and so yeah, yeah, and I but I was like, oh, I don't want to Like, I was like hoping that didn't come through to them because they must be like, well, she's never coming back if you didn't know she was on the show, Yeah, we'll see, we'll see.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, is there anything else?

I the only other thing I see here, I'm just looking at a different page, not the Looker's guide, a different one, says behind the Scenes says.

According to uh Larry to Tellio, when writing this episode, he imagined Bureau thirteen to be the same organization that sent Nights one and two so yeah, that makes sense to me, even if I don't call it you're thirteen, there's just some sort of nebulous organization that is doing weird stuff with people's brains.

Yeah, so thatah works, That works to me.

That makes sense.

That makes sense.

Well, and then the party didn't read and I decided not to read.

This is the part I didn't want to read, and I hope I left out the right part.

But JMS says, you know, of course my organizations are going to change their names every fifteen minutes.

And I'm like, yeah, do they though?

Do they though?

Really?

But anyway, you know, fine, that was eased.

That is his excuse for for why called bureau thirteen?

Mm hm yeah yeah yeah right right, yeah, okay, I guess, I guess, but.

Like nothing like like if You're thirteen never comes up, like unless you want to say it's cidecor but we like Cycorn never changes its name.

Like it's just right right.

It just feels like this thing laid there and it's it feels it almost and I know it's not intentional, it's because of your thirteen being a game, but it feels the same level of unfair as the marriage between Jeff and and Delenn where it's like you you set something up and it's never going to pay off.

But in that case, like, in that case, obviously it's because of things.

Although this is awesome, I don't know why this one feels worse to me.

It just feels worse.

Yeah, yeah, no, it does, it does.

I agree?

Yeah, I agree, because there's not you can't say it's because of the game.

They could have they could have yeah, yeah, they fine found something.

Yeah, and also JMS being JMS, it might have been like I kind of wish I hadn't Okay, here I go.

I kind of wish I hadn't laid that pipe.

But sorry.

But then you know, so he's like he can he can blame it on the game name of like, Okay, I'm kind of going to change this tack a little bit and I'll just say it, you know, and like or not not that he's trying to like pull one over on us, but to justify it to himself too, like, well, we can't use the name anyway, so I might as well just like slightly veer the way that we're going to tell the story.

Yeah, that's fine, that's fine.

I mean, it's it's it's well within his rights.

I just, of course, of course it's tregative.

Yeah, completely, It's just that scene very much lays it out as like this is.

But it's also you know, we talked about how I was like, you know, he is the showrunner, is going to come in and pretty much touch every script, and I don't think he's going to touch it Larry to till You's scripts very much because he's like they're already on the same page.

They've worked together for years.

That's like, you know, I get that as a show runner, You're like, this is the person who I don't have to think about what they're doing.

I know they're going to know they're gonna be on branded and it's going to be fine.

They're not going to like throw anything in there that's like completely off the track.

Larry in his you know, free lance writer's status whatever, also could just be like I'm gonna throw something down that might like might stick, you know, and he sees something for it because he's also like he is also a show creader and so he's like, I see something where that's going.

And jmsles not only where I saw it going, So you know, I can also see that being part of it too, which is he's so busy right now, Like he said in the last couple of episodes ago, he couldn't be on set the day that the flat gouts of flame were coming up in the Medowship, you know, so he's really busy.

He's super busy at this moment in the show, in the in the season, and that means he's not going to be heavy handed with the scripts.

And that means that sometimes things get laid by Larry to Talio that are going to not necessarily really follow exactly the way ja Must wants him to go.

So I could see that.

I could definitely see that.

I don't think I have any more thoughts.

I just think of this as the Talia Talia a lot of an episode, really scary hands, but I don't care.

Right and for me, it's the seventies musical movie episode a little bit.

I saw actually Grease and Xanad together on a double feature once.

I mean, amazing, this is my happy Place, like Happy Place, followed by The Whiz and after two and a half movies I had to leave I'm.

Sorry, is the best one of those three.

I was literally like, I was like you've never seen The Whiz.

This is such a classic.

I mean, it's Diana Ross, it's Michael Jackson.

It's amazing, it's so good.

The song move On down the Road is so good.

It's good, but it's so bad.

It's so bad.

That's a part of my childhood.

So I don't know, you know, there was a part of my childhood too well.

It's one of the.

The Wiz I've watched many times is a kid growing up.

It's I feel like there's movies that black parents show their children and it's just like, this is this is your culture.

I remember I distinctly remember my mom telling me, Okay, you're old enough, we're gonna watch Roots now.

And I was like, what, No, it's fine, it's time, okay, yes, homework, yes, I mean becoming.

Black that's where that's that is where I was.

I was like, The Wiz is so fantastic.

It's culturally important.

It's also just like such a great fun retelling of Wizard of Us.

It's a different version of Wicked, right, And I was like, we you know, we have to go.

I'm so excited to go see all these three we were.

I mean, it's a lot of singing to get through all of those movies back to back.

And Xanadu is inarguably a terrible film.

The music is wonderful once so I love it and I could probably quote every line from it.

I love it so much.

It's so bad.

It's so bad.

The music is great, but it's a terrible movie.

It's a terrible movie.

Greace, though Greece is wonderful.

Greece I've seen a few times.

I am now wondering if I should try and watch The Whizz as an adult and see, because I just my love of that movie is so strong, but it's not based on any actual of the movie, just it's.

The songs and my feeling as a child.

Well, maybe you shouldn't then, Okay, Okay, No it's.

Not It's probably not musical.

Live musical is really fad, you know.

And that's the thing.

It's I'm probably not being fair with it.

I think that there's some I think there's some filmmaking choices that I wasn't in love with.

And the pacing of it is also just like, I mean, you and I can sit through nineteen seventies movies, but I don't know that Alian gots could because the pacing of those films is just so different, and you know it's so that's probably part of it too.

I think your loving and nostalgia will absolutely hold it up.

And it's also I mean, like Michael Jackson's The Sarah Scarecrows just imperfect incredible, So I.

Mean them are perfect, Like something about the way he moves his body moves works so well.

Yeah, for I mean, I love Ray Boulger, but watching watching Michael Jackson like fall down and just like his his jelly bones is just it's incredible, so incredible, and Ross is just the most charming, the most char yes, of course, and who else could you possibly have sing after Judy Garland?

But yeah, if you don't really have any other choice, So.

No, exactly exactly.

Yeah.

Okay, now that we've talked about musicals on our rapple on five podcasts, welcome to our where we break down movies, musical movies from the seventies.

Sorry, everyone will be he exclamation point.

We'll be talking about Fiddler in a couple of weeks.

Anyway, I love musicals so much.

We need to end this episode, so I'm gonna try and not fuck up this outro, like I fucked it up Reaction.

Because I'm for some we love it, know why.

I don't know why I can.

Never get it out.

But dude, this stuff you gotta like, and you gotta subscribe, and you gotta rate and review.

That's what you do the audio podcasts.

And you can check out our Patreon where you get early access and add free versions of the audio version of this I'm edited versions of Thank you of the Reaction, And you can join my discord as a patron and be like we have a special super secret patroon channel where like we talk about things like what's coming in the upcoming previously and you can help me with that and hear it early and stuff like that.

So do all of that stuff please, and yeah, love you all and Babylon