All right, welcome to the Babylon Podcast.

We have podcasts.

We are watching and reacting and discussing and breaking down and analyzing and doing all the things to Babylon five.

We just watched season two episode what is the number five?

Yes, called the Long Dark, and we have many, many thoughts.

So Yes.

Is canceled.

He had a minute, he had all.

Half a license back.

Now I'm sorry, you'll, I gave him half a license back.

I'm revoking it.

I'm revoking it.

I have.

We're going to see how many licenses he can lose by the.

End of this spirit.

The Babylon Podcast was our last best hope for a deep dive, a self contained discussion for hosts strong located in the neutral terra tony of the Zokolow, a place of commentary and analysis for two veterans and two newcomers, a shining beacon of fandom, all alone in the streaming void.

It was the dawn of the streaming age, the year the great theories came upon us.

All this is the story of Babylon.

The year is twenty twenty five.

The place wherever you get your podcasts.

I haven't thought on this, but first I want to introduce ourselves.

I'm Jenny.

I'm a big fan of the show and I have watched it through multiple times.

Gus actor, first time watcher Love Reginald Barclay.

I'm Ali.

Doctor Steve is canceled.

Yes, Yes, I question you.

Canceled, Doctor Steve.

Yes.

This one was written by someone named Scott Frost and directed by Mario Mario Delio.

But I wanted to say just a note.

The three episodes we think of problematic Doctor Steve are believers.

What was the last one?

The diet one?

Uh, this one right, and this one.

None of those episodes were written by j MS.

Okay, that's good.

That's good to know.

That's so it's not JMS kicking him in.

Kicking him in the head to reference something I said from the episode.

Everyone else is like you ever guest writers like, Oh, this guy's hot as hell.

Let's funk with that.

Let's let's make him the most unfusckable hot guy.

Jesus Christ, by the way, the act is doing an amazing job.

He's great, He's fantastic.

I went into this one like prepping for it, you know, a little behind the scenes.

But I always read the Lurker's guide in the synopsis, I expected there to be a lot of discussion about like.

Him basic problematics.

Was yeah, not none at all, Like, not even a little bit, And like, I don't think it was JMS avoiding it because I.

Need to go to jail exactly, to jail.

Other episodes where like he definitely people criticize something in the show and he will respond to it.

So I don't think anybody criticized this.

I think in the nineties it was just like yeah, hot doctor patient.

Fine, No, look I again in the context of the time, yep, that's just what you do with this episode.

I get it.

Yes, it's like so now that it just doesn't fly even a little bit, a little bit.

And then neither calls it.

He calls it out like he's like, I will sleep with my patient, so he knows.

But I will aggressively stroke them the entire episode aggressively, Like the minute that woman opened her eyes, he was like, so sheer single, yes.

I'm not going to explain it to you, guys.

Is aggressively stroking right, Well.

Yes, Ali's going to fucking expl Yeah.

Because I have time for men's nonsense today.

When they find those other people that have been attacked by the monster.

She like he's trying to treat them, and she's sitting aside and being like, I'm gonna stroke your hand because I guess that's what doctor doctors.

Do, that's medical care, stroking one's hand.

It's just, you know, for.

The minute, the minute that woman came into the picture, like like he was so eager to get to this woman, he cast aside all safety regulations and opened that little box.

Yeah, you know, he so got one look at the fact that she was a hot lady and was like fuck fuck all safety protocol, yeah, fuck all, Like fuck all propriety.

I'm gonna stroke this woman's head, like that is my job instead of doctor.

It's a situation where where you know, just it's just if it had added something to the plot.

I thought for sure this woman was.

She had been possessed by the monster.

I think it's just a condemnation of the nineties, just the times.

Man, Like, it's just this was not good.

It kind of felt like the actor the rest of the episode was great, and maybe this is me projecting, It kind of felt like the actor was aware that this was he.

Was like he a.

Couple of times looked like he's like I kind of can't believe I'm doing this right now.

Like, if you watch closely, there's a couple of moments where he's being all sexy with her where you could tell he's like he's like, I guess I'm gonna do this now.

I can't guess this is what they want.

Like the stroking was like very frantic in a way where I was like what it.

Was just completely unnecessary.

I mean I mean, yeah, it's sure whatever of the time, whatever, I don't give a fuck.

It just completely added nothing to the episode.

It didn't benefit.

I'm just like when people are like I want to go back to the good old days, like the weird stroke looking days, Like.

Let's be clear by what we're asking for.

Man, your beloved husband just died.

Like the good ol days are not just Pinafores, Like, let's be clear.

I mean we're Pinafore.

Is that what people are longing for?

Are you longing for pills?

Some of the tid wives are Some of the tidwives are, And I'm like, okay, but you also had no rights back then.

Is a scam created by Big Pinafore to sell more Pinafores.

Yes, the Big Pinafore lobby and lobbyists.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

I want to just point something else out about the times.

Just I very much.

This is one of those episodes that I do remember watching the first time, and there's a thing that would happen in nineties television that I noticed as a black person all the time is oh, they introduced a hot black lady.

They're going to kiss.

Okay, that's listen.

I thought about it.

I thought about it the minute I thought that she was a black woman.

Well I'm not the one to say don't.

But that is literally like so I didn't have the shock of oh my god, it's gross.

I was just like, it's gonna happen.

There's there's no I don't think the whole thing I'm about to say, but it's the nineties.

There's no other reason in the nineties, like, yeah, it doesn't happen now, thank god, But less the amount of times like I had.

You know, I was in university and at the time, and I with your roommates, and we'd be watching a movie or television and I would call a couple and they'd be like, how do you like she's black?

He's black, like, that's that's all you need.

Apparently she showed up and I went, oh god, please, no, I don't say anything.

But I was like no, no, no, no, no no no no no, don't don't don't don't, yeah, do not take I thought about it.

Characters and make them kiss.

I gotta be really.

I thought about it because I was like, oh, that's like progressive.

And then I saw doctor Steve take a look at her and I was.

Like, no, no, now.

Of the times, Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's just wow.

Yeah, it just was.

I just realized I'm like waiting for you guys to speak, and that's this is really awkward for you.

I'm sorry, white people.

It's not awkward.

You're white guilt.

But no, no, no, no no, it's try away away.

Yes, that's true.

All we can say is not as bad.

It's not awkward.

It's just it's it's the situation and it was the situation then, and it really fucking sucks that it was the situation then.

Yeah, and I'm you know, that is sorry.

It's just one of most things, just like everything about it about it is bad, Like there's nothing in that story.

That.

I yeah, Like when you said, oh Steve, doctor Steve does something out of pocket, I literally like stop calling it, guys, like you fully called that at the beginning of the episode because I've been I've been dreading this storyline.

I think I think it well for me.

For me, the second it started, I went, oh God, and I just I just kind of shut off any level of analysis that was happening to that plot.

Like the second balk me and it's this one I'm not have been so good because doctor Steve is not a stupid person, Like the character is an intelligent character.

He came up with the idea to use the June Lockhart machine on Garibaldi.

He had a whole fucking thing, like, he's not a he's not a dumb ass.

He done jupid pills this episode.

But every now and again a guest or comes in is like hot actor, Yeah, well what a fucking idiot, And then they.

Got right, they're all a hot actor.

It's just I know, there was something.

There was something.

I was like, there's a racist undertone in here, and I can't put my finger on it, but like I was just like there was something I don't like it.

Yeah, it's just like, I'm not calling the right of racist.

I was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, because I don't know them nineties.

It was in the air.

It's not in the air currently, but it was even more in the air, you know what I mean?

Yes, And like I said, like there's there are other things that come up in the Lurkers Guide.

Apparently nobody right watching this episode in the nineties was like, maybe he shouldn't be trying to like taking the patient back to his quarters was closer.

Was Crazzy That was crazy, stayed there the entire night.

That was No, that was crazy, and that Garibaldi made a quip about it.

That was crazy.

It was like, all of these men, we need to have sensitivity training immediately.

Here's the thing, though, here's the thing that sucks.

All of that ship is overshadowing the fact that Dwight Schultz was in this episode, yes, and did an incredible job.

Incredible Yeah, all of that again.

All I'm sorry, Jenny, go ahead, I.

Just get get.

He gives this amazing monologue, and the commenters that all get mad that we talked too much.

It probably won't be that huge monologue, won't be a huge part of the reaction because we were just entranced by the screen and just watching it for like.

That.

Yeahs any talks.

And that's what pisses me off too, is all this weird fucking doctor Steve shit.

We've spent eleven minutes talking about it, and we just mentioned that Barkley was in the episode, and Barkley was the heart and soul of the fucking episode.

And God, I am so annoyed that she wasn't possessed by the monster thing.

I wanted it to be the monster so bad.

Why did we not go there?

Jenny FROs I froze just a second place.

Jenny FROs picularly about how damn it was.

You can cut out the part where your avatar phrases and just have us on the screen if you'd prefer.

That was crazy.

I'm so sorry.

I can't get over that he brought her back to his corner.

I can't get over it.

I can't both of us.

I want character deserves much better, man.

I want a clip of our reaction because.

The actor's really good.

The actor replaces Doctor Steve is really good, and he the character could have so much going on, but every time we get him in and I'm assuming it's just us right now, Jenny, because you're kind of your your avatar's just kind of twitching.

And every time blugg back, every time we get a plot with doctor Steve's just some weird, fucking bullshit.

And I made a joke in the in the episode where reaction where I was like, either either what was the first thing that I said, but the second option was JMS is just deliberately kicking the character and they head whenever he can.

Yes and again not JMS episodes and again Believers, as I have said before, is one of the It's really goddamn good as an episode, even in it paints Doctor Steve in a horrific light.

But that's a great episode.

It's really good.

But the character just keeps on doing stupid fucking ship and there.

Has not been a redemption for doctor Stephen.

Well, he brought Airbaldi back and that gave him two episodes and then he did die.

I gave him half a medical license back to.

Diet culture dot com and this.

And the diet culture I was willing to accept because of the times this was insane.

This was insane, and the culture like it's it's die culture, but it was not as bad as it was more nuanced than that made an effort.

So far as diet culture plotline, it.

Made an effort, but this was Ray.

Was appalling the bring her back to your quarters and then making out with her and trying to make out with her in the quarters and stroking her.

And she's a recent in her mind, widow widow what there's no excuse, I know, Doctor Stephen.

It's just bad man.

It's just really that part.

Where I never thought of they I never thought of the idea of her being a secubist and that would fix it.

Like so.

Yes, because I'm watching the episode and I say, he is not this stupid.

This character is not dumb.

This character makes bad decisions sometimes.

This character is known to be kind of a philanthroper.

This character is like every time there's a woman involved, he's he's doing eyes and kind of like being a little bit flirty with her, which but also you know, I get it.

He was you get it, no, because he came from soaps.

The act came from soaps.

So so I'm like, sure, I understand that you get this guy.

You're gonna go, oh, well, we should probably set him up for this situation because he's really good at it.

But then you put him in this situation, I'm like, well, he's not a fucking idiot.

He is talking about how this is inappropriate.

He is aware that this is not what he was he should be doing.

This woman is clearly deeply connected to whatever this monster thing is.

She must be possessed by the monster, and she must be trying to more covertly operate out of herself to infect other people rather than just being like giant invisible devil, evil shadow monster and or.

And this is not the actors not doing a good job.

They needed to have way more undeniable chemistry to pull this off, to pull off both of them bigness dumb.

I mean like they they did not have the.

Level of chemistry required no for this to be like oh no, like even though it's so wrong, we somehow are rooting for this anyway because you two are so like meant for each other that it's insane, Like these two are good actors who had normal person chemistry.

This also like, yes, there was an extended.

It needed to be super like human chemistry where we're like I don't care what happens.

I don't care how wrong this is.

Jet they have to kiss.

I don't know what to tell you, because when he told her that that's hard to fight, this is gonna sound.

Like I'm bagging on the actress and it's really not meant to be me bagging on the actress.

But when he tells her that the husband is dead, there is a really really long shot on her face where she is not reacting very much, and I guess the purpose there was that she was in shock.

But watching it, I was like, Okay, why are we spending like eight seconds looking at her face and going this isn't registering or clicking too much.

I went, oh, it's because she's putting on that she's upset, But no, she was.

She was just upset and was in shock, which is which makes sense.

But I don't know, man, it just didn't work for me.

Yeah.

I just think that the two Yeah, like like.

You cast me in fucking what to pull this off?

I just feel like to pull this off, like you had to be like like a couple where you're like, should we leave you alone?

Yeah?

Like efforts that neither of you will know or will have seen, I imagine.

But Moonlighting.

Daniella and Pasha from Dancing with the Stars dance together.

That's the level of chemistry.

I'm talking.

Sure, I don't know that one.

We're going to say, send you a clip.

I feel like I am walking in on something what we should feel.

Because then also we get to the whole thing where she's talking about her husband.

She's like, well, you know, we fought a lot, and I'm like, and say, you're.

Okay with making out with this guy you met yesterday?

Yeah, I'm like, I'm sorry for today.

Married couple sometimes fight, Yeah, it just happened, and it's been nuts.

That doesn't make you love the person less necessarily.

And I'm like, I'm sorry.

If I'm not feeling a guy's vibe, if I'm not suddenly feeling my husband's vibe, I'm not signing up to do.

One hundred years in space with him.

No.

No, it just doesn't collect.

It just doesn't make sense.

It's it's and again, I want to take a step.

I tried to do this in the episode, but then he started trying to kiss her, and yes.

You were trying, you were trying.

And then immediately when he brought her back to her do its quarters and started drying back on her.

You were like, never mind, I will take.

A second and step back and go, yeah, I understand it's the nineties and the guy wanted to put a romance plot in, but fuck me, like, this is just not this is not the one and again, especially not when you're gonna cast a mixed choice character to make out with a mixed raoice character.

Like, this was bad, man, this was this, This was really bad.

Yes, the rest of the episode was great, excellent.

The rest of the episode is good.

We got some good lore information.

I was like, I was a little disappointed that it was didn't have like more to do with the shadow goblin genie men.

We did directly.

I just wanted my friends the shadowy goblin genie man creepy man.

Yeah, invisible Monster didn't scare me as much.

But we did have invisible Monster in the finale of season one.

True, Remember we had multiple crystallids looking guys.

Yeah, so we know, Oh, maybe that's the hyperspace thing.

Maybe some of them live in hyperspace and they're like half in real space half in hyperspace, and that's why, Oh she got really still, that's that's why, that's that's.

Why, Uh, this is not good because it's only me, right, So you don't you're not dividing your focus between me and.

No and I again, for as much as the other poor guest star was suffering through having to act that plot.

Uh, Barkley was amazing.

Yes, he did so fucking well.

Oh so astautd.

I haven't seen him in more things like.

The monologue I know now, I'm like, god, what could I what could I write that?

I cast?

I want to cast him in something.

He's so good.

The way he went, like the choice to go to become the soldier during the monologue and then change back.

I mean like that was so fluid and good and grounded and made sense.

I loved it the way that, like his reality made sense to him, Like that's so important when you're playing someone who's lost it.

And yes, by the way, chat, I know he was on the A team, but I know him first from if you commented that in the video reaction you owe me one thousand dollars?

Can we split it?

Yes, you owe the podcasts if you went you fucking idiots, he was on the A team.

You Patreon one thousand dollars now, thank you?

Nice?

Nice?

What if one day someone takes us up on it.

Oh my God, give you a legend.

Yes, Bruce Box lightning cameos for everybody.

Yes, sorry, go ahead.

So yeah, anyway, well acted from him.

The lady did her best with what she was given.

Yeah, it was not.

I mean, here's why the chemistry was No, here's part of it.

Part of it was that the two of them spent a majority of their scenes together not looking at one another.

That is true.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Have you ever seen people who like have chemistry They're leaning in their eyes are lock solid on each other like I It's just that's how.

Yeah, well look how we're sitting.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, there's a connection.

And it's not just random this ship, you know, like that's insane.

It's like, you know, there's just there's a there's a quality, and the two of them had like normal person chemistry, not not it's ordained by the God's chemistry, which is the only kind of chemistry that could excuse my I found that my husband was dead yesterday.

Yeah, that is the only kind of chemistry today.

Today is the next scene.

He brought her.

I found he was dead today and now we're in the I want to kiss you in your quarters, Like, ma'am, I.

Understand grief is the hell of a drug, but like, no, you want it to.

Be more than just two hot people with normal chemistry.

It's like it has to be too hot people with no we have spiciest chemistry of all time.

We have to go back to dwighte Cheltz.

We have to go back to Park.

Okay, because that plot was actually interesting and good.

Yes, you have the floor.

He was great, and I liked him, and I like the fact that there are shadows and have been shadows for quite some time, and the shadows have been around for a minute.

And Jakar was like, wait a minute, this sounds like Satan from the Bible, and that was cool.

I liked that, and I liked that we got dwighte.

Chiltz giving a long fucking monologue and that we got all of the B tier level aliens being like, this sounds like Satan from the Bible is back and Londo being like, who knows that fucking bullshit?

And now we got to go back.

I'm talking about how problematic doctor Steve was.

That's where my focus focus.

I am locked in on how to solve this problem.

It was that she is a psuchupist the whole time, that that was.

The way to do it.

We had the people on the floor, we have them all.

Yeah, you have the possibility that, like the alien leaves something in you that gives you some sort of natural power, like it actually power story, It would make a lot of fucking.

Sense that that that she was really skinny and the.

Guy really skinny, and everyone got really skinny.

It was really skinny.

But no, apparently it was just sucking your organ out of your ass.

I guess I don't know where the fuck the hearts came out of.

But did she still have organs?

Apparently yes, and so did Schultz.

Yeah, fat fat slash, I don't know.

Yeah, he was eighty five pounds.

Like, holy crap, that's bad.

That's very bad.

Ye's too.

Too things any grown adult, full sized person.

I just don't think that will work out.

So yeah, almost all of.

Them speaking of the alien.

I just wanted to point something out from the notes like that at the end, when you were like trying to figure out about what they were seeing and what nott uh he says in the notes, we pushed the envelope.

They talked about the special effects and sometimes we get a paper cut.

I had, for instance, much more in mind for the he says EFX.

I don't know what that means in the final confrontation in a long dark but we were alas and then he like does an emoji like this close?

U this much ahead of the technology.

We had to pull off what he wanted.

So I'm curious your thoughts on like what they had going like we did was enough for you like he was?

I mean no, I think that what he was probably going for was like heat shimmer, maybe a persistent heat shimmer in space, because when it was getting shot, it was surrounded with electrical yeah, you know, electrical arcing, and I imagine that what he was going for was more of a for lack of a better term, like voyager cloaking effect.

Yeah.

I can see that.

Yeah, you know where it's like you can tell something is there, but it looks like light being shown through glass.

That yeah that works.

Yeah, that makes sense.

But yeah they can tell the thing.

Yeah, because Sheridan ran in and immediately went oh and started lighting in, just shot it nothing, yeah, right away, So I imagine it was meant to be.

I'm trying to think of the what is it.

There are things in Star Trek that can do like individual cloaking eight four seven two can't I don't think.

Seven two cats.

Yeah, they live in liquid space.

I don't remember about cloaking there.

There is definitely some some monster in Star Trek that can do like individual cloaking fields.

I just don't remember what it is right now.

Oh well, no, that's never one, never mind, but I think that's probably what he was going for.

Was like, yeah, probably, yeah.

Dune shielding basically, yeah, which would have been cool, which would have worked.

But and it's not that this didn't work at all, but I kind of had to go, Okay, they're they're compensating a little bit for the times, which is fine.

I didn't mind it.

It didn't piss me off.

I was too busy being pissed off about Doctor Steve Yes.

Which, as we predicted, is the majority of the focus.

I do want to how could we possibly talk about anything else?

I just.

Gonna try it.

Some of the lore that was dropped you were quite excited about.

So Tony gave humans jump gates.

Why, well, one thing I can't remember what episode out, but yeah, they pointed it out in the comments I was like, oh, yeah, we should have brought that up in that episode.

I think it's just one of you know, when you come from like our level of nerdy background, with like a deep star trek background, there's no prime directive in this universe.

There's no like, we don't give technology to lower like species that have less.

There's just none of that, like that's a very star trek thing.

So they just thought it'd be really funny.

Well, they wanted trade negotiations.

It was part like, we want some of your staff here, you what.

Here's the thing that was why.

They said they don't.

They opened up trade negotiations with US and gave us jump gate technology as part.

Okact, I guess that's the I don't remember exactly how we worded it, but it's something to that effect.

Respectfully to the lower builders.

When it comes to economics of trade, interstellar travel is more valuable than absolutely anything that you can get from an individual star system.

There is absolutely no capacity in which it would makes sense to me for the Centauri to give up interstellar travel technology.

Okay, but human music is pretty awesome in exchange for the Beatles.

It just doesn't work for me.

You're telling me the interstellar travel and the Beatles are been broadcasting the Beatles into space since the dawn of time.

They already had it.

Well, we're terrible business people.

Study has been blasting ship out in every direction.

This fucking podcast may be blasted out into space for all I fucking know.

Like like like I'm being a little bit facetious, but regardless, what in God's name could Earth have offered the centaury in exchange for Jumpkate technology?

Maybe I have some thoughts in this dogs Earth has cool ship, we have dogs.

If you have a mostellar empire and you want doggs, you just take the dogs.

If you're the Space Soviet Union.

No, because you convinced them that the dogs won't like.

You know, but it's a the Space Soviet Union, and fucking I don't know space whine.

Space Canada shows up and is like, how you're doing respectfully, h Jenny, thank you?

You're just gonna take the damn dogs from Canada if you want them there.

That's not a good way to start Internationally.

There are a colonial empire inspatial relationship.

Yes, they are a colonial empire.

Why would they That's what I was gonna That's I was gonna say, if you remember from the I don't remember it's a pilot or episode one, but when when humans and the Centauri first met, the Centauri tried to convince the humans, yeah, you're a lost colony, so I can imagine them thinking of it like there's some sort of we're gonna rule over you, but we're gonna pretend to be like super benevolent.

Like I can sort of see them being likedmonic thing, yeah, like we're gonna welcome you in and you'll be our subjects.

And then humans turned out to be like, wait, we're not related at all, but not until maybe this is meat head canon in it, like after they got it, they want to be like, yeah.

Yeah, I guess I'll take it.

I'm gonna go.

I'm going with the dogs.

Dogs, docs, they wanted docs.

They they wanted they wanted.

Cat yessessive cats.

Cat have feathers, go quack.

That's absolutely what it is.

If any character in this franchise needs to be holding a cat like this, Charlie, I'm sorry, and petting it like this, it's Londo Malari.

Any character needs to be holding and petting a cat like this, it's Londo and I swear to funk if two episodes from now he's doing that, Jan s os me five hundred dollars.

Wow, Wow, you're gonna get rich off this.

He could take it, he can handle it.

Mm hmm.

Nobody's ever taken me up on this before.

No, No, the only thing I think, yes, there's people telling you to fuck off years later.

I think that's the only that does still happen.

I get muck you Gus.

Yeah, no, I know, I asked for this.

That's a wheel takes.

I mean technically I asked for Yeah, you did ask for this, and I still get.

If you want to do you want to.

Get that, you have to go and listen to Gus and Ali's other podcast.

This was before I thought like anybody would listen to us.

Yes, and it's still funny to me.

M hm, yes, it's even it's even funnier now.

So yeah, sure, the longer it gets, the funnier.

It's been like five years.

Yeah, it's been like five years, six six years anyway.

Oh I got a message fuck you?

Yeah right, yeah.

So there was that.

More, there was the okay, like this is what okay that creature do you think that was a shadow.

Or well it was adjacent to the shadows.

I mean, I am assuming that the shadows.

Friend of the shadows.

It seems so.

Perhaps the creepy shadow demon goblin Genie Man himself is not one of the shadows, because there are unless they're shape shifters, because we have those sketchy fucking Starship Trooper monsters that look more yeah the thing.

But I don't know, man, Maybe there's just like a whole Maybe it's like Chaos from Warhammer, and there's just like a whole fucking subset of different, divergent, creepy ass dudes in another dimension, primarily who congregate on Zaha Doom.

Who like so quickly the second lights changed quote, I was like, well, how could it not be?

I mean, come on, look, look he looks like the fucking Crystalid monsters.

Where else is he gonna go?

We've already talked about the Rim, We've talked about Zaha Doom.

I'm sticking by my theory that Sheridan's wife went to Zaha Doom, and there's no evidence for it right now, Yes, okay o.

Li brain in my brain was like what you s.

Yeah, I forgot.

There was a couple of episodes ago.

I feel.

Yeah, I know she Yeah, okay, I went to the rim.

Maybe she's still alive.

Maybe she's like, oh that would be terrible.

Well here's the thing, though, Garibaldi's X still has to matter because we cast that character.

Up.

I forget where you're like, okay, yes, what's your name?

What's your name?

Yeah?

You remembered it right off the fucking cuff.

That's how I know she matters.

I tricked you.

I don't I remember everything on this show.

But it's like the wheel of time after like Book six where I don't remember.

When clamor what's the name of the and a cup of sleep?

Oh?

Fuck?

Say though, like break down the tower to like.

My lad my love, this is why we are wet.

Scene is so sad, but this is why we are wet, my love.

He's brilliant.

Who throws himself at a woman holding side in the chapter with the ch and.

Remember their names because Release the Time has over two thousand name characters.

You remembers.

Maybe and like a hundred it's somebody's Asham's bonded to.

My love?

The Jenny stopping stop it, we have food doesn't know.

His name.

I knew that one.

I knew that one.

I knew I will tell you remember his name, all right, I'm saying, sorry, that.

Doesn't read Wheel of Time is just confused by this whole tagent that just happened.

I knew all of the scenes.

I just forget.

There's over like there's twenty five hundred named characters in the Wheel of Time.

The fact that you remember that closed my mind.

But you remembered, given.

Jenny's given us a new lease on life.

I remember because the reason I remember because you made that joke last time she was on.

Oh, I did that joke last time.

I didn't even remember making that joke before.

I didn't realize that was a repeat.

But yeah, it's fine, it's fine anyway.

Yes, I also remember Sheridan's wife's name.

I just because you are alive.

No, I forgot you'd already remember.

I remember, is it daniel Danielle?

Yeah, I just I forgot that that episode already aired.

The Oh of course it did.

His sister sister.

Elizabeth, right, Lizzie.

Gus lighting has now lit the Gus.

Gus is doing Gus lighting on the person who should.

Be doing this, trying to reverse gus life it's cool and unusual and I shouldn't be doing it, but I'm doing it.

I love it.

Okay, your powers.

For good for once?

But then again, mary Anne the journalist, So I.

Did remember Marianne the journalist.

Yes, tell you a little, tell you a bit a behind the scenes though about the pilot.

I had to look up Takeshima's name before it started because I was so afraid that I my not knowing her name would reveal that she doesn't come back.

I mean that's fair.

I need to just say her name really confidently, like, yes, I absolutely know who Takeshima is.

But you know, but you didn't have to look up Lida.

No, Lida, Lida is like it's not as hard to remember as so you've said Lida like a thousand times.

No, and I have more pilot.

That's even more telling.

She did not have to look up Lise.

I did not have to look up Lea.

But I did remember Marianne's name right off the bat.

That was what what's clown Baby's actual name?

I don't even know who clown baby is?

Remember what joke that was?

Who's clown baby?

From eyes?

From Ah?

It's it's a really cool name.

Stop.

I'm not good at names.

Lisa is one syllable.

His Benz?

What is?

What is Garrebbaldi's like friends dead friend's daughter's name?

Oh?

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Garibaldi has a daughter.

I'm sorry.

He died and his daughter worked for the president.

I don't remember her name.

I'm gonna tell you that I don't know most of my co workers' names.

It doesn't mean anything.

I'm less concerned you're not remembering names, and I'm more concerned you're remembering names.

One syllable, I'm sure.

Yeah, Leana, three syllables, right out the dome.

It's done.

I'm pretty sure that the daughter's name is Catherine.

And I don't know why Leanna.

It was Leanna?

Okay, the fantasy name.

You don't remember the fantasy name, but you remember Lese.

None of this?

Sorry so bad, we'll stop.

Now.

Focused directly on me is a very intense.

Jen's gonna watch this and be like, what the fuck are they doing?

Dustin Allie need to shut up?

All right?

Yeah, that's sound like jud That sound like I mean if you should.

Watch yeah, because she wants to be able to discuss right.

Great, Council that will have later Jen, do you remember Lese.

God, you guys are spent half of Great Councils talking about Lise on how to do some damage girl on the lease issue now.

But look, this episode is actually weirdly load bearing because there's shadow agents out all over the place and some of them were on that moon and again they tried to eat Barkley's organs and didn't organs and stuff.

It was very creepy, like there's certain things that they did with the perspective and angles.

Yeah, there was scene that was almost a fish fish islands and I was like, that was weird, Like it was that was it had a good tone for a couple of months idline that were really good.

Yeah, this is one of those episodes where again if I can just cover all the Doctor Steve stuff, if I can just ignore all of that ship, this episode's great.

Yeah, just put some just put some goggles.

All I gotta do is pretend Doctor Steve wasn't in the episode and it's great.

Yeah.

Really it was just really to say yes, but yes, but I I didn't notice it.

Like today, when I saw the name on the writers, I was like, yeah, no, it's not it's not him as he's doing this to him.

It's uh, I forget he wrote that.

I just kind of feel like.

I'm sitting there half the time going on.

It was Lease, I'm sorry, it was least least was the writer of Believers.

Yeah, Lias wrote every episode, Lise.

You heard her here first.

The J and j MS is actually just an l that's been reversed.

Right, Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, you've uncovered like the secret.

Hell it's Michaelski.

Oh my god.

Wow?

Do do you have any other thoughts on this episode?

Before?

I would like a clip of our reaction to doctor Steve bringing that woman into his room a personal Instagram, And I would also like just the entire least moment, the.

Entirely thing would be.

Would would fund well done?

My love?

Yeah, this is why I married him.

He is a clever boy, William clever, clever gaslight.

I'm not a fan a little girk in this one, ye cleckle Oh my god.

Okay, well then I guess we will end this for now.

I guess, so good bye bye.

Where's my nose staring?

Ah?

My friends, you have reached the most dangerous part of our journey.

The Gray Council.

Here we speak of things that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers.

If you are not ready, turned back now that if you dare to proceed, I promise you it will benificent.

Mister Garibaldi, Oh my gosh, okay remembered he remembered Lisa's name.

She's not even important.

She just comes back.

It's so.

So funny, so funny.

I it's so funny.

It's so funny.

They cornered me, They cornered me, and it's just like, I'm sorry, I need to either lie, I guess about what I remember, I don't know.

I need you there.

That's what I discovered so badly while it was happening.

It was just like I need Jen, I need Gen so bad because all their attention was focused on me.

So if you're if you're if you're wondering now why suddenly I'm here in the sokolo as I'm showing up at the end of the after the after I mean, I'm showing up in the Great Council after the KO.

I listened back to THEO because I wanted to know what gustinally thought about the episode Before I talked.

I watched it, and I actually watch their reactions watching it, which was really fun while I was watching, But I felt so bad as I was listening because I was like, I felt like they had you like a badger trapping dad.

He funny did this is just what the fuck is going on?

It's like, I'm I'm glad that the thing that they I'm gonna be sad for them when it when Lisa does return, because I'm sorry, the actress is fine, Lisa's she's so boring.

She's so boring.

She'd like the only active choice I think she ever makes in the show she already made in a flashback, and that's when she dumps Garibaldi.

Everything else is just like I accidentally got caught in across fire.

Oh the guy i'm married set me on this trip.

Oh I got caught.

Oh my husband died and now I have a billion dollars and my lady brain can't handle it.

Fix it for me, Like, it's just make a fucking choice, lady, Like do something just poking or the entire time, do something interesting, justify get a baldy's obsessions with.

You, please, So anyway, that's that's a whole whatever.

When she comes back, They're gonna be like ha ha, she's important, and I'm gonna be like, no, back, Yeah, that's all she is.

She's back.

They're so funny.

I was.

I was just like I was really, I was kind of like getting, I was getting.

I was sweating for you.

I was like listening.

I was like, so they're not what they weren't being made at all, but that it was just like I was sweating and then quizzing you on every other random person that like isn't going to come back, so that they could prove that that was the reason that you remembered it.

Yeah, but it's also like a one syllable name.

It's not Audi ben Zane like me exactly.

There are that are a lot of hard even Zathrass is.

A lot of hurder, remember, yes, but I do not forget zach Ross.

Of course we can ever, Yeah, no, of course not.

That's just unforgettable, all right.

So well, and also like what you know, you guys we're all talking about like in some ways like not a waste of him.

But I mean so, I h I think I think you saw this I had in our in our group chat beforehand when I realized this was the Dwight Schultz episode.

I was like, I'm so sad, and of course I was like because a team.

I just I love Dwight.

I love him, and I love him in that generation.

I love him and he shows up in Voyager.

I love him in everything any bit part he's ever done, and he's done a ton of voiceover or both animation and video games, and I've just always been such a fan of his.

Uh.

But so I was really sad to be missing him.

But he was phenomenal, so good and so good and I love love that they were that.

I pointed it out in this globe.

I'm sure you heard, but like if there's a if you yeah, if you watch me action, you saw, like mon he gives that long monologue.

We like nobody said a word like yeah, all those people who are so mad at us for talking so much, No, we were like like all of us just excited on here's what's funny.

Because I so I was watching you guys intermittently, like I was mostly watching you guys when it was like a big reaction time.

But I was also like I was watching the episode while I was cooking slash, you know, because I'm multitasker, and I'm never have five minutes.

So I was watching what I was doing things, and I kept like I I was cooking, and then I would so I had my iPad next to me while I was cooking, and then I needed something and I'd reach over there to get something, and then I like shit, and I rewint, you know, like fifteen back, ten seconds back, ten seconds back, okay, started again.

Oh, I need to think because something's burning.

Shit.

And so I like rewatched that monologue like six times on my own because I was like, I can't I can't miss a.

Second of it.

It's so good.

It's go back to the beginning of it, and rewatch it.

It was.

It's so good.

It's so good, it's so fantastic.

It's really cool.

In fact, part of it I just listened to because I had gotten I'd like ahead in my ear and I walked away and I was like, God, this is like listening to like you know, great radio or like you know, Oh, it's just so yeah, it's really.

Good, and it's honestly, in my opinion, it's the best part of the episode.

Like that, not even like they hit that plot.

That plot is obviously the better part of the episode than the Yeah.

But.

Like even of that plot, that monologue is stellar.

The rest of the like this is actually one of the least popular, like it, it's generally bought like the bottom of the list, like down with TKO, down with Infection for most people, that monologue elevates it to a point where I don't hate it.

I don't hate the episode because.

It's interesting, because I it's interesting.

You would say that because I mean, look, you guys already talked all about doctor Franklin.

I can get it of it all.

But oh my god, I mean I had the same thing, and I literally I was like, I can't wait to see what Guess and Ali are doing at this exact moment, and I like caught up to that moment watching the reaction because I was just like and then I even played it for David.

Yes, he was like what, I'm like, so funny.

But despite that, like I actually thought so, I just was like, Okay, great, I'm gonna just like put all of that in a little in a little pocket and push it away because even the storyline of I mean, you know, look what, it's a different version of Khan, Like you know, they find the ship, somebody's still on it and crygenic they unfreeze them.

Everybody else is dead, Like you know, we haven't it's not we haven't seen that storyline before.

But I thought it was so well done.

And I thought it was even though it's the storyline we know and we've seen it was I thought it was fresh and fun and interesting, and because everything plays into the main story as well.

And then the whole sideline of like of of the stuff with d White Schultzen, like what does it mean and how is this affecting the future and Sheridan like really being in this place of like you know, telling the one guy, I'll do whatever I can to protect my protect people on this station.

Yeah, yeah, make a choice about how this goes down.

And I just thought, like I thought the character work.

The one character I felt like that.

I felt like I felt the Tasha Yar of it was Avanava.

I just felt like Avanava didn't.

Get it out.

Yeah.

Yeah, she's been there.

I put on the thumbnails for the last several weeks because she's been like pretty pretty, that's fine, she can take a breather, It's it's good.

Yeah, But I just thought it was I thought it was an excellent episode, despite the creepy doctors.

I thought it was so good.

I'm surprised to hear that it's at the bottom of the barrel for most people.

I have a feeling the creepy doctor takes over, which I don't know.

Did you look at the look Nobody mentions it in the lookers Guide, So in the nineties, nobody watched this episode and like went on the boards and was like, excuse me, like no patient doctor appropriate, Like yeah, which is wild.

So I have a feeling that definitely overshadows a lot of the rest of the episode, the rest of I think for me, because obviously, when I'm watching the show, like even the last week's episode, I don't know that I ever noticed that the first half of the episode nothing happens because I know the story, so I'm filling it in in my head, like I'm like, oh, I know he's a mentor, I know what's coming.

I know, like and so the information doesn't feel like it's missing.

So this episode I'm only paying attention to, Oh, yeah, there's a thing going to Zahadum and then there's a monologue by Dwight Schultz, like that's the only thing in this episode that matters.

And in fact, it's interesting because you say that about the Lurkers Guide now, because I wrote so one of the things I wrote done about night.

I just I wrote nineties underline underline, underline underline.

What does that mean?

Something about lighting?

Shit?

Moonlighting?

Oh, moonlighting?

Moon light?

Yeah?

Yes, yeah.

I was like, why did I write moon I wrote it in two separate words, and that contgre.

I was like, okay, nineties, So you're two things about the Lurkers Guide and about nobody mentioning it at the time.

So one was yep, we were all just indoctrinated with it.

We were indoctrinated with inappropriate relationships, including moonlighting, like which I'll get to the chemistry thing in a second, but we were all used to just like men being smarmy and women being there for it and being okay with it because that was what that was the way it was written.

You were written to be okay with it.

We were all used to it.

But also most of the people on the Lurkers God, I'm going to guess eighty five percent of the.

More men I would get, I would guess higher at that.

You're probably right, You're actually probably bad time at that time time.

Yeah.

Yeah, like people who were in chat rooms and people who were watching this kind of television tended to lean heavily, heavily towards men, So you know, it might not be that.

I'm not suggesting that all of those men were unenlightened.

I'm just suggesting that they don't.

Question things when they're they're they're just always presented to you as the norm.

You just you don't question it.

Yeah, it's and it's and it's I'm so glad we don't.

I'm so glad that we question it now.

And I'm so glad.

I'm so glad that we questioned it so hard that you know, even you and I, who watched it at the time and were indoctrinated in that, can watch it with Ali and Gus and basically have the same reaction as them, which is bad.

Yeah.

Yeah, I probably I well, no, I don't know that I saw this one in first one.

I probably saw this one when watching it on the DVDs, so I don't know that I I don't know.

I don't remember how I reacted to it.

It's not one that actually left an impression other than and you know, that's the impression that left just like, oh, doctor no.

One of the things I thought it was interesting you guys brought up, and then we'll get off of doctor Steve because it's not that interesting.

But one of the things I thought you brought that it was interesting that Ellian Gus brought up and this was your example for it was if we had seen that there was all of this really intense chemistry between them, we might have even been a little more forgiving of like I'm a doctor, I can't yeah, you know, but there's really this strong attraction.

But it did feel and I'm glad you guys brought it up.

I had the exact same immediate reaction with was oh, to exactly same skin tone colored black people put together on the scene.

They're both pretty black people.

Make sure they get together going to kid like yeah, it was just like it was so uncomfortable and recognizing that nineties trope and that nineties behavior.

I will say though for the show, like on the show's I don't know what I'm what we're phrase, I'm gonna use they break this trope late on, like yeah, yeah, doctor Steve does kiss another beautiful, light skinned black woman, but he also kisses a white lady, so you know, I break in the trouble a little later, like, I mean, come on the kissing, except for like Sheridan with the Lenz.

I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, I think he gets the most kisses.

I mean he is put there as the male eye candy.

Yeah here, and you know, and and it was you know, and you're and this show is breaking so many molds and really breaking boundaries and doing so many That's what.

I was the phrase I was looking for.

I didn't lay pipe, but I having trouble finding the phrase.

Okay, good, But if they had, if they had had better chemistry, like there were just ways that they could have made that less egregious.

One was like, you know, like you guys said, like if she had actually been, you know, trying to lure him or something.

Yeah, myad.

But but you mentioned Moonlighting, and I wanted to just say so, did I tell you that I just watched the pilot, rewatched the pilot.

No, I have That is a show that I have not seen since it was on the air.

What I do my memory of Moonlighting?

I do not remember the premise.

I remember nothing except Sybil Shepherd and Bruce Willis and fire like when they were like they had such chemistry, they had such chemists.

But that's literally all I remember about the show.

And I feel like I ruined David's childhood because I told him that.

I don't think he didn't.

He just didn't know this.

This is the kind of thing that he like, even though he's in the industry, he doesn't like pay attention to this stuff.

I told him how much they hated each other off.

Yeah, yeah, I need that too.

It was devastating.

I mean, that was that was at the time, that was tabloid fodder.

But he wasn't read tabloids at the time, and he was just devastated because Maddie and Maddie and Dave David were his like favorite couple of television, you know, growing up.

And so we I don't remember why what came up about it.

Probably something from our podcast that I was like complaining about nineties television, and we were like, let's watch Moonlighting.

So we rewatched the pilot, which is a fascinating experience in similar to the gathering.

Clearly was shot back when in the day when they did this shot and then they probably aired it and they were like these five.

Things aren't working.

We need to change this or beef this up or whatever, because there's some scenes when you're like, his haircut's different.

They shot this four months later after they got picked up and they fixed it.

There's things that are like that, and the set is different in one place, and and but their chemistry from the first second, first second on screen together is just edible, like big spoons.

It's so good.

And yeah, like and then I told you I watched the beginning of the pilot of Scarecrow Missus King.

Yes, yes, yeah, not straight the.

Ming person on the planet.

He's kind of a dick in the first episode.

And and I think I think Scarecrow Missus King is earlier too, so you're dealing with the like again, I eighties show, eighties dramas.

When I've tried to rewatch them, it's not even that, oh this is politically they don't make sense, like I don't end.

Yeah, there's things in Moonlighting too, in the Moonlighting pilot that I was like, this show was smarter and stronger as it went, you know, like this don't make sense.

I was like, in fact, I said to David, I was like, they are they were writing on the chemistry between and Bruce Willis, like that was how that show got picked up because if I had just watched that pilot, like, this isn't making sense.

I'm not I'm not buying the show, but it was a good call because their's chemistry was amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I just want to and I love it.

You're like moonlighting And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm not there, Jenny to tell you, because I back.

You up definitely obviously I've never seen it, like, yeah, yeah, the most famous chemistry that I know.

Like, it's just not not to mention a teen, I'm just like, come on, I mean, Joyce Shelton.

A Team is just I actually recently just watched an A Team.

I'm clearly I'm.

Goodness retro, I am.

It's very fun.

Okay.

So but anyway, so I felt bad that I left you.

Oh but here's the thing I was most upset and worried about when they started corning you and like asking you about all the different characters, and then you know, I love that You're like, look, I had to look up Takashima's name.

Yeah, and then but not Lida, like Lida's Okay, again, though, I just want to say, Takashima versus Leda, Addie ben Zane versus Lise, these are not equal, Like, they're not.

Equal things I know, very similar and very easy to remember.

Yes, true, but they must know.

They must know that Tally is coming back, or that Patricia Thomas coming back.

I think Gus might have a hint because I don't know if you remember, during one of those early episodes, we let him look up the actress playing Takashima, and then when he started to look up Leader, we were like, no, yeah, so might yeah, right, but I can't I have to look into the order of the episodes because we could trick him with.

It's not that Leda comes back, it's that the actress comes back playing somebody.

Because the actress who played the talk is going to show up this season as a human, right, So yeah, you know that, Like there's always that, Like that's they don't have to show up as their character.

They can show up as anything.

It's it's science fiction.

It's it's all pretend, you know, for specific Gray Council, like spool full spoiler stuff.

Obviously, Yeah, the thing is a shadow servant.

It's it's not one of the shadows.

It's a shadow servant.

That's pretty much it.

It's this is I think in this episode there's only two things that he wanted to be like, so I guess it could be like a guest writer, Like there's only two points he wanted to have made, which is there are shadow servants, it's not just the shadows, and the other thing, which is so tiny.

I caught it, not this isn't the first rewatch I caught it.

I think I caught it the last time.

But it's so tiny.

When Amos is preaching, there's a Ranger there watching him.

And this is before we know that the Rangers exist.

So when the Rangers eventually show up, I can't remember what episode.

It's a few episodes from now or whatever, like there'll be a Jeff thing like and Jeff shows up like in a video, like when you see the Rangers, you see me and the Rangers are like, no, we've been here for a while.

This is the first episode.

Hold on, let me make sure that maybe I'm just looking and see if I missed a previous No.

No, it says this episode is the first appearance of the Rangers.

Okay, so I caught it.

Yes, Sorry, one of the guys.

Yeah, but it's like if you would never catch that on unless it's a rewatch, because you don't know what the Rangers look like, and even like, oh shit, what just happened?

Yeah, you went away.

I have no idea where I was, so I blacked out, literally blacked out, But so I don't know what part of the sentence I stopped being visible on.

But yes, so you wouldn't know to look for the Rangers.

But even when you know to look for them, they're hard to Like, it's just a guy by the bar and the main focus is Barkley.

Of course Amos shoots, yeah, like up on the bar preaching, who's looking at the people looking at him?

But there's a dude on the side of the bar, just and he's in a Ranger outfit, certainly not the woman wearing making dinner.

Was not looking.

And most people aren't and so like that's like, that's a very cool detail that it only like, which I find is very forward thinking for the nineties because that detail is only important on a rewatch.

That's such a JMS thing though both it is only important for a rewatch, but it's also part of him and his level of verisimilitude of like, yeah, I know that this is going to be in there, so even if nobody else ever knows, it grounds the show and gives it an authenticity and some reality that that he needs that to be, which is just I'm in awe of it.

I love it.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, I think that is very very cool.

The jump bands thing, Oh so sorry, you go ahead.

Yes, it was the jump Gates.

Thank you.

There was one thing I wanted to talk to about was the jump Gate because I don't I don't, okay, thank you, because I don't know.

I know how it happens, but I don't know when the information is given, and I don't know if it's a spoiler.

I can't remember did I still have it up or did I get rid of it?

There is okay, can you still see me?

Yes, okay, I'm reading off my screen.

So it does talk about it says it's unknown exactly which race invented the technology because the Centauri found it.

We needed them in barr and that the Centauri found it.

They discovered it and it was you know, they were not exploring it.

And then it does say that it says so what it says is that the ones that where this sorry this about the Centauri is showing and giving it to the Earth because you were you were on the absolutely on the right thing about like your theory of of that being you know, give it because they kept saying like, no one's going to guess, kept saying, no one's going to give that technology away, and I'm like that.

But the Centauri are also all about trade and capitalism, well imperialism, but about like getting ship and also having people bring them the ship that they want.

So it doesn't surprise me that they'd be like, use our jump gates and bring us our we want, we want it, and that they were like renting it.

It was like Amtrak trains.

Yes, not to mention it's not Centauri, as you mentioned, because that's the thing I wasn't sure about whether I should say because it's not I don't think it's ever.

I don't think it ever spoils anything.

But I don't remember when it's revealed in the show.

It's just information.

I know it's not Centauri technology.

So the fear that the Centauri would have is if we don't give it to you, somebody else is going to give it to you, and then you'll like them better exactly right, Like if you if you find another species and they're like, oh, we've got jump gates, then you'll you'll be loyal to them instead of to us.

So yes, that is, it says.

It says like the Centauri like they were like they said something like here it is.

It says the Centauri.

We're giving them the loan of the gates to in the beginning something like that, like they were like, you could use our gates.

It wasn't that they gave them jumpgate technology.

They were just like, you can use it.

But then after they went through it a bunch of times, they were like, now we know how to make them.

Yeah, like we figured out how to do it, so you know, you kind of couldn't keep it completely.

You can't keep that under wraps, like it's like, yeah, I'm gonna here's like introduced.

Like it's like the Phoenicians like traveling around being like, oh, we have this cool way of eating records and everybody being like, oh, that's so much better than what we're doing.

Now we all have written language.

Like you know exactly this is this is Earth having no military or strategic value.

The Centauri eagerly sold the Earth Alliance time on their own jump gates to allow trade with other worlds, so even they were even letting Earth trade with other people.

But yes, you can use our jump gate to get there, which again is like then if you trade with them, you're going to bring us those things back and trade those things with us, Like it's just you can't.

It's like, yeah, it's like having a boat and being like no one else kind of boats exactly.

Yeah.

Plus, like I said, I think it it it Actually, I think we see it work for the Centauri in the show where it's established a loyalty like during the narn Centauri War, Earth sides with Centaur Centauri, right, and that's not like you know, it's partially because oh we're fascists there and perialist.

Let's we fit together like a club.

But I think there's also a matter of no, you hold this out.

You helped us out, Like we have a historic sense of like loyalty to you because you gave us this.

Like yeah, there's a reason that countries in like in the real world do nice things for other countries.

And it's not just because you're nice, it's because, yeah, we need you.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's all uh, it's all transactional for very transactional.

I think that there's the thing that I thought also was interesting was that there's like I don't when I was looking it up.

That's what I couldn't figure out was to answer, like where do we find this out at.

That's why I wasn't sure what to say, because I know this information, I just don't know when or how I know it.

It says episode in oh third Space the movie oh God, uh huh, and the other place where there's two places where it says it where we get that information where to go third spaces?

Okay, it's super like okay, but it's like also barely, I mean it's cannon but barely.

And then also in to Dream in the City of Sorrows.

Oh, that's the book that I read.

Yes, okay, so that's like where the mention of that stuff is.

Anyway, so I don't even know how much of it's in the show.

And then I was like, because my thought would be jump gate, then you get into the whole paradox of space time.

But like, did we teach ourselves how to use jump kates because we already had jump Kates, like, is the historical creator of jumpgates actually us that's using you.

Know what I mean?

Like yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think I think third space must be where I know it from then, because I just read the book recently and that's just information that's been in my head for a while that I think it somewhere it stated that whoever, like, nobody knows.

It's not even like the jump gates have been around.

It's not the Vorlons don't even know.

They've been around so long.

So some ancient race made them and just left a bunch of them and died out.

And I guess that's yeah, so I don't know who made them and it's never stated, and I like kind of like that as a cool mystery of just yeah, me too, to have no idea, Me too, me too.

But then but then Gus glond Onto that as being like relevant to you know, the shadows using hyperspace to travel to.

Around, Yeah, I think they all use hyperspace.

Everybody uses hyperspace.

Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I don't I don't think it spoils anything, but I don't know.

Yeah, I don't think saying I don't think say either.

That's what But that's what I was wavering on.

It's like, I don't know, right, right, So what else is there?

Right, John, I don't know.

I don't think.

I think, Oh, oh, I know what I was gonna say.

You you were in JMS was talking about the effects for the show and he said, EFX, not VFX because place.

Yeah, it used to be as effect says, sound effects.

Yeah, effects used to be special effects.

Was sp effects was meaning it like needed some kind of you know, but we didn't call it.

We didn't call it VFX.

We didn't call it visual visual effects because because effects were just effects is sort of general because most of them before this time we're done on camera and set like live.

There was nothing was post.

There was no post prior to this, or there was I mean, there wasn't this kind of post, not like VFX posts.

And so yeah, we didn't even start calling it.

I don't know when they started calling it VFX.

I mean I'm sure some people did back then, but certainly, like you're running a writer, yeah, and you're one of the most writer would just call it like, you know, EFX, like you know, there's an effect you.

Know, wow, yeah, which can be technics.

Yeah, It could be pyrotechnics.

It could be like plame on the bridge exactly exactly.

It could be a canon that makes something roll over, you know, canons and stuff.

But yeah, yeah, oh cool, yeah, people us other things.

But I just don't think VFX was actually used.

Yeah yeah, because I mean this show was one of the like the premiere show, what do you call it, one of the first shows to use uh computer generated graphics at all?

So yeah, why would you need an acronym for that?

Like, you don't start needing acronyms or abbreviations until things happen a lot.

Exactly, until you use it over and over again.

So yeah, I don't.

I that's like this episode does not have a huge amount of continuity stuff.

I missed you so much, China.

I was like, I could, I could, I could do I could, Like, how can I distract them?

I can't distract them?

They did this without me.

It was a couple of days ago.

No, I know they needed to get thrown off the side.

With bones, right.

But thank you as always, and thank thank you all for joining us and watching and uh reveling in my horror and the sweat that was running on my back.

Sorry, all of that.

We hope you sweated too while you were listening.

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Oh look, my hand just went through my body there.

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