Welcome back to a Babylon We Are podcast.

We are watching and reacting and discussing and breaking down episodes of Babylon five.

We just watched the Coming of Shadows.

Oh my god.

Yes, great.

They have strong.

Feelings about this episode.

I am Jenny.

I also like this episode a lot, and I'm a big fan of the show.

I am Jen.

I'm a screenwriter and showrunner.

I am a fan of the show from back in the day, and I am rewatching the show for the first time in a very long time.

I'm Gus.

I would volunteer to be a Jeffling.

I'm an actor and I love this show so much so I've never watched it before though.

I'm Ali and I am a screenwriter and an actor, and I am a new watcher of Babylon five, and I loved this episode.

This was awesome.

The Babylon Podcast was our last best hope for a deep dive, a self contained discussion for hosts strong located in the neutral territory of the Zokolow, a place of commentary and analysis for two veterans and two newcomers, a shining beacon of fandom, all alone in the streaming void.

It was the dawn of the streaming age, the year the great theories came upon us all.

This is the story of Babylon.

The year is twenty twenty six.

The place wherever you get your podcasts, there's.

A good one.

And as you all you started noticing this one was written by JMS and directed by Janet.

The dream allays the always And you know what, I bet they both cost a lot of money, but.

You budget, so there you go.

That's right, it's amazing.

I was I told Jen this right before we re I did tell you.

I dreamed about this episode last night because I knew this was coming, and I knew that Jeff was in this episode and you would be excited.

And in my dream, literally in my dream, we were doing this, we were recording, and I kept because he was just in the episode, like from the start to the ends and the entire time I'm watching it.

In my dream, I was like, I don't remember Jeff being in this episode.

I expected.

I love the meta of this so hard.

I just I love it.

I love it.

I love it.

It's so weird.

I thought you were going to say that you dreamed of just a giant hand reaching out of the sun you're getting closer and closer and closer and closer and closer.

There's your thumbnail.

It's the movie I dream, it's the show I dream of Jeffy's wait.

Yes, well, well done with the yes.

Good?

All right, I guess I just go ahead and talk about your thoughts on this episode.

I don't know what else.

It was really good.

I'm sorry you may want to duck the audio there.

That was lotter than I meant it to be.

Amazing.

It was insane.

It was so good.

It was so good.

Every time we watched, every time we watched one of these Janet Jms dream Team double hit or awesome things, somebody in the comments and on a discord goes like, this, this is where the show really starts.

And for some reason, I feel like that's already happened on this episode today.

I feel like there's like thirty comments that are like, this is where the show really starts, and I feel like it's true again because this was nuts.

This was crazy.

I mean, when you examine a serialized show and things that like, oh yeah, things change from week to week, you can't do this shit on Star Trek.

You can't, not really, you can have the Battle of Wolf three five nine happen.

Sure you can have the Dominion War at the end of Deep Space nine.

Sure you can have the entire season premise a voyager from day one.

Sure yeah, you're not midway through the thing again, unless you're doing the Dominion War, which I feel like happened in response to this.

You're not gonna go like, yeah, there's now an ongoing war between the Romulans and the Klingons, and it's going to have really major effects on everybody because we have a main cast member who's a Romulan and a main cast member who's a Klingon.

Like, this is crazy, and I knew something like this is gonna happen eventually.

I'm so gladifiably happened.

I'm not glad that, you know, Rope some other group it's in there.

This is this is going to be coming into galactic war.

I think this is insane, dude.

This is insane because.

They could have said Solana was.

A fucking idiot.

Listen, I love Ita is a fucking idiot, dude, run O God.

And you know who agrees with you?

Everyone er agrees with me.

You're the bravest man in the world.

Is like, Latando, maybe you should take your head out of your fucking ass.

I mean this, this was I love.

That you gave him like a Kermit voice.

That's just how it came about.

This was great, and we had Jeff, we had a little bit of off screen that was so exciting.

So glad both from an in world perspective.

I'm just glad that we were able to get a little bit more Michael O'Hara and I liked it the way they did that.

That's really great, very makes sense.

But then he's like, don't tell the new captain about me.

Yes, was like, come on, what is going on.

I'm a big fan of Bruce bo to be fair to him, I can't let him know that I'm thinking about him all the time.

To be so cool, to be fair to Jeff.

He has no idea how charming Bruce doesn't do.

Never Bruce Box Lighter, star Killer.

We're going to come back to that.

By the way, star Killer, that was cool.

No, guys, we're never going to come back to that.

I think it's gonna be like that was really sassy and I didn't uh we had what do we got?

This episode?

This episode has everything.

It's got Jeff, It's got the jeff Flings.

Jeff's got Charlie.

The Jefflings are what I'm calling the Rangers.

Uh, it's got, it's got every it's got cash being not even cryptic.

No, I mean in fire, not very cryptic.

That's pretty straight up.

That's pretty straight up.

You got Car, You got Andreas Cassulis and Peter Jurisic doing incredible performances.

They are a spark on screen together like it's.

Together and even alone.

I mean the Londo uh in with You Have the Drink with Jakr that was fucking amazing.

Car's meltdowns were incredible.

I mean, just the wall of all incredible performances.

This episode just amazing.

The Emperor showing up and being like I'm a pretty cool guy, and Bally and I being like, well you're dead.

I mean, like, I know.

He showed up.

That was wild.

You're like, oh, he's nice, He's gonna die.

But also like mid season one, I was like, the Emperor's gonna die and they're gonna put shitheads in charge.

Though I'm also like, you had your entire life to say I'm sorry why at the buzzer, I get it, and it's like, I'm just saying, why at the buzzer are we like, let's.

This is somebody like well, he did sort of like he's when talking with Sheridan, He's like, I've never made a choice in my life, I guess at the end of his life.

And being like, huh, I've never made a choice in my life.

Let me make a choice.

I've never.

Boomer, he's never apologized in his life, and he's gonna wait until the very end.

But I also I also get it from the perspective of like he's a ceremonial figurehead, he's an important guy with actual power, but he's also like he's the face of the species, He's the face of the planet.

So it kind of made me wheel of time.

I'm going to wheel of time and kind of think of like Randall Thorpe being like, I don't get any choice over what I do.

I'm kind of locked in.

I don't really have the ability to be flexible.

I'm at the whim of the people that I lead.

Because that guy seems like he's actually a good leader, as opposed to Londo, who is not good at anything except for being a treacherous bastard.

I'm being really hard on him right now.

I'll come around eventually.

No, he's kill a quarter of a million people.

Didn't kill he killed the military element, and then he tried to press gang the civilians.

But yeah, well then then he tried to press gang.

According to that, we're not gonna we're not gonna misuse them.

Really, if there was an interesting acting choice he made that I am assuming also directing choice, and maybe it was in the script, but when the len calls it out, like you're going to put them in work camps, basically he looked chagrined, like he looked like, I mean embarrassed, and like you.

Should be as you should be when you were putting people at work camps.

You should be.

That should normalize embarrassing people for that, Like that's my gun, dude, Like cancel.

Culture should exist for some things.

I wanted to, but I most I think in that situation, most people would not choose, Like they would be like, no, we're like, we're taking back our land that belongs to like even if you felt it, you it posture as if.

You did it, yeah right, Whereas.

In that moment, like he he looked like a puppy who had been caught like peeing on the bed, like that's what you looked like.

I feel like it's kind of implied from some stuff that Rifa and Londo said that it's been a century since the Narns kicked out the Centauri.

I don't think it's been that.

Long, but longer than living memory, right, No, because because his father, you're right, I'm.

Sorry, Yeah, because the Emperor's dad was the one who did a lot of that.

Yeah, I did a lot of the really bad stuff and okay, but yeah, I don't know how old narn Are is to car old.

I don't think they've ever given like an age, like an aging thing.

So I'm going to say for the most part, they're equivalent to our age.

We know, we know that Minbari live longer because uh my god, Lanier spent one hundred and third teen years learning everything but comedy.

Yeah, everything but the comedy in.

The in the temple.

But it's it's interesting because I get the feeling that however long ago it was, it is long enough that it's not a fresh thing for people like Londo and Refa, like maybe when they were young, like very young.

But it feels like he's he's doing something really interesting.

I think with Oh God, I could make a lot of contemporary parallels that I don't think.

I really want it, so I gets hitting really hard.

Yeah, politics, he's doing a lot with It feels to me when you have people who grow up after something has ended and then have this illusion of this grandeur that used to be and this for lack of a better term, rateness that used to be a thing, and then they kind of delude themselves into thinking that it's better to just go back to what it was like, go back to how we had it before, even though.

Maybe are like advertisements, is not actual reality.

Yes, yes, because it feels like Reef, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm talking about my ass and maybe it was like twenty years ago that they were they were uh in charge of narn But it just kind of feels like Reefa and Londo are operating from a perspective of like I'm not going to say it, but uh, wanting to return the Centauri prime to a previous state of better than goodness.

That again, again, once again, that was what the return was.

That's the return return.

Yeah, that maybe maybe was a delusional illusion in the first place, as opposed to like.

Was it great for all the Centauri or just like rich White?

And was it great for the fucking Narns too, you know, like, I don't know.

I guess not.

At least Londo has the decencies, you said, Jenny, to be a little bit chagrined about it, and to be a little bit one would hope, but does no.

Well, apparently the bar is in fucking hell.

Yeah.

Wow, at least he has this.

Jesus, you feel bad about killing people for no reason.

He didn't feel bad about the first time.

He didn't.

I'm not going to get over this.

Yeah, no, I'm saying.

I'm just letting him know.

I'm letting him know.

I will not forget character, good work.

I'm letting I'm letting him know.

I will not forget.

I will not forgive.

Yeah, you would have to put in work.

I'm here for the trajectory, but he will have to put in work with me.

Okay, okay, he said labor like.

In the camps.

He was going to put all those people in right, but.

Not miss use them.

No, not misuse them, misuse anybody.

We have the word to misuse.

I know it was gross, It's a gross.

They picked that word on purpose.

I I just remembered that there is a there is a company that a bunch of people I work with left to go work at this other company kind of involuntarily.

And uh, they don't have a human resources department.

They have a human capital department.

And just that term alone makes me think of misusing and human capital.

I'm just like, that's much worse than human resources.

Fused up.

It's really weird.

I don't like it.

Anyway.

You said the.

Word trajectory and that made me like, I think of future blah blah blah.

The dream sequence, Oh my god, if you remember.

Like literally one episode one, he talked about how he has a dream of Jaikar killing him.

Yeah, our hands around each other's throat.

I was thinking about that.

I think about that, he said.

I was all thinking about.

He said, whatever.

I'm an old man.

I don't remember if your car he had a number that was totally car.

It was your car that was killing him.

Yeah, with the with the patch.

Oh he's gonna lose an eye, isn't he?

Maybe because he had a cloth around one in the tower of around his.

Face giving up the flight of the room.

Does talk about that?

You can't talk about that whatever for you.

You need to finish the books.

I know already on it.

Uh uh there, yeah, so that might happen.

But the hand reaching out of the sun was weird.

Mm hmm what did what was it?

The techno mage.

Said, Oh god, I'm like, this is what my goss.

I can only remember what I said on the previous I know, can I pull you want me to pull it up?

I can pull I know you know, I know you're looking at it right now.

Oh shoot, I pulled up a video and I didn't want I want to pull up text of it.

I might have it here, go ahead.

I can just pull the episode up.

Go ahead.

I you want to.

Find a quote, because I think he does say a great hand, not the wizard quote.

I'm sure I remember exactly what you were talking about.

Which one was shadows.

Yeah, he said, yes, yeah, okay, hold on.

He said we're going to kill each other and.

No, no, no, this is something this was at the end here.

Yeah of oh oh wow, I clicked right to it.

Okay, pull it up up here.

Hold on, as I look at you, amador already I see a great hand reaching out of the stars, and is your hand I have sounds, the sounds of billions of people calling your name, my follow ups.

Okay, so he literally he talks about a hands.

Yeah, well that sucks.

What the fuck?

Uh okay, mm hmm.

That so he got a great hand.

Any other thoughts on any of the other stuff that you saw in the dream.

He had he had the it looked like he had a crown, and it looked like he was the emperor, the emperor.

Oh god, there was other stuff in the dream, and I know all of it's really happened.

Uh.

He was standing on a surface of a planet as shadow ships flew overhead.

Mm hmm.

That happened.

Uh yeah, oh god.

Else I'm trying to remember blowing up, killing people, shadows killing people.

Uh oh, there was him doing something, him doing something, him getting some kind of accolade.

It seemed like, can I make that up?

I'm trying.

I mean, he had people around him putting things on him, So maybe I can see how you could say alcoholic.

Yeah yeah, hold on, I gotta I'll just.

Just trying to pull something up from the Oh there it is, I found it.

Yeah, from Laker's guy.

This is JMS.

I will tell you a true and secret thing read Loondo's dream and looking up at a blue sky to see the ships passing overhead.

Ever since I was a kid, I've had that image in my dreams, of standing out in the open and looking up at strange dark ships that pass overhead.

I always thought of it as a It's always been an unnerving image, and I wanted to see it here to see if.

They could have the same effect.

That's really cool.

Yeah, it's a recurring dream he's had that he put into the show.

Well, it was uncomfortable, especially with those creepy shadows, even Goblin Genie ships.

Was there something else that I should be remembering?

I know there is no.

I'm just wondering, like any thing.

I mean, some of it's pretty like how how solid do you think these are?

Any predictions that you're making based on.

It's jam mess?

I mean, yeah, it's pretty solid.

It's fairly solid.

I don't necessarily think everything has to come to pass exactly.

I mean, like sometimes dreams can be metaphors instead of like that's what I mean.

I don't think an actual, literal giant hand is going to come out of the sun, Okay, I don't think that's going to happen.

Now I've said that.

The comments are like, look at this fucking idiot.

He doesn't know about the hand, but a hand.

But I don't think that's going to happen exactly.

Okay.

I feel like Londo is now actively trying to fulfill and work against this destiny of his, which is going to be an interesting push and pull for him.

I wish that he would get his head out of his ass, but I just don't.

But it's so far up there, up there, man, Really hard.

To do with the hair to to get your yeah, flared base.

The hair is a flared base, gus.

But to go in the way, you'd have to go in foo feet first, You're right.

Yeah, tough to do.

Yeah, sorry to talking about exactly that happened.

Oh, I guess I probably it's a different version of a flair.

No oh no, okay, it's so bad.

It's really bad.

I looked it up.

The Centauri can conquered the narn in twenty one thirteen.

Still there, It's it's only been like forty years, still there.

Twenty one thirteen, and now where it nine?

Yeah, yeah, it was they were talking about four hundred years.

So something PD's ass was crazy.

Okay, so they've so they've been gone, they've been off the planet for like forty or fifty years.

Then it was crazy, yes, okay, so wait, twenty one thirteen century conquered Narn and then remember that the Narn like the Centauri like, weren't as strong anymore.

So the Centauri like the declining of the entire empire, and their strength was twenty one fifty So they were there for forty years before they started losing their thing.

And then like this has led to all the animosity that's continued on Okay, okay, yeah.

So there's okay legs to that reading.

And we've gotten I don't feel like I'm giving you any information that you don't know.

We've heard those states along the way.

Yeah, and that was sad.

It was the Emperor's father, like that's you know, it's it's giving you exactly oh important information about this episode that I should have started off with.

And I'm certain that we've already had several comments about that.

I didn't mention it always.

Five hundred dollars apiece.

Yes, this episode one of hugo.

Oh yeah, buddy, yeah.

I'm going to tell you what it beat for the Hugo Apollo thirteen twelve Monkeys Toy Story an episode of DS nine, The Visitor and then the Visitor.

The fucking Visitor.

Yep, yeah, Okay, it got like Apollo thirteen got the most nominations, so Coming Your Shadows didn't get as many nominations, but once it was in, it got like it beat the others by more than one hundred.

Folks like that is that is a fucking list.

Yeah, I think it's Apollo twelve Monkeys toy story in the Visitor is the Visitor the one.

Of I don't want know with oh God, yep, that's like one of the yep.

So the one with old Jake.

I'm not going to say anything else other than that, but that's one of the best episodes of Deep's Face nine, I think, which is saying something and he's.

Like, obviously, you know, I mean as as a person who when he was young would steal Hugo Award winning books, like this is a very big deal for him to.

Have won, and he there's a lot of talk.

Actually, I wondered if you read some of this in their gen because there was a lot of talk about how there were episodes in season one that were nominated, but they submitted way too many of them.

So if you had actually taken the votes for all of the episodes that were nominated like that they got, they would have won a Hugo in season one, but they were their votes were spread out just over too many episodes, so this season they only submitted it.

We're in the middle of awards season right now, and I gotta tell you the whole like deciding what you submit and how much is that when you've got a show and it's a real things.

I'm sorry, I have to go by for a second.

Toy story?

Is that a fantasy or a sci fi?

I know, but come on, I mean, I'm like, look, I'm like this.

These shelves are full of toy story.

I'm just saying, yeah, that is kind of weird.

It does not there's a space ranger in it.

You're correct?

Do I have him here by nearby?

I don't think I do.

He was literally here five minutes ago, but buzz Is buzz has gone missing.

You're right, there's a space ranger.

There's a space ranger.

Speaking of rangers, Okay, bring it back.

Thoughts on the Rangers the completely obsessed, Yes, completely.

Consumed you noticed them before.

I've definitely seen a guy with a cloak.

But and the half shoulder cape, yeah, I've definitly.

Seen that before.

Hold on a minute, Yeah, like I noticed them.

I just was like, oh, that extra's got a cool cape on.

Interesting because that's one of those things Jen and I talked about this in The Great Council.

The first ranger in the show appears in the episode with Barkley the uh you know, the cool like with the creepy shadow demon gobbing Jenny monster like that one.

Yeah, that's the first ranger that shows.

And I just think it's really cool because that's one of those things that isn't important until you're doing a rewatch and then you know it's there.

And this is the nineties and people were not thinking about people rewatching shows in the nineties.

So that's cool.

That's true.

They weren't that.

That's just I just love that that's seated in there.

And then you know is Jen talked about like this is just Jams like, well, whether anybody else would see it or I know that they're there, like that's jam As being like that's important to me.

Then they're in the show before we show them because we say in the show that they were before, so I have to be there.

And whoever actually saw and legitimately remembered that as opposed to me, who I might just be lying to myself.

I was like, that's the weird outfit.

I definitely noticed.

Yeah.

By the way, just random interjection, if you need another reason to never trust Ai.

I was looking up Toy Story Award, Toy Story Hugo Award.

If you google Toy Story Hugo, it did not take the award, with Apollo thirteen winning instead.

That's a lie.

That's a lie.

Fu Ai lie today.

There was another one earlier today, and I was like, straight up false, straight up false to me, And I was literally like I thumbed downed it because I was like, how else do I report that it's wrong.

I'm trying to figure this out.

But I didn't know you could tone them down, because that's the like, that's the best cure I think for this Ai psychosis we're all in is ask Ai about something you know about like the second like and for me that's like any wheel of time question.

It's like I need even not blonde.

What the fuck are you talking about?

She's not a blonde.

Also, if you type in minus AI when you google something, it just skips the AI prompt.

Oh shit.

I could google something and then like negative negative and AI.

Typing.

Whenever I want to google and then hate that it comes up to Reddit after.

I would I would rather trust someone, some random person on Reddit from five years thousand.

I would trust Reddit more than most people for most questions, Like when you ask most questions online, I'm like, what does Reddit think?

Like the backpacks I bought today?

Yeah, Reddit, I.

Check on whenever I buy any technology that's ok.

I look it up and then read it because I want to see what people say read it.

I read it in Tom's Guide and Wirecutter because it's crowd source you know.

Yeah yeah yeah, just lies.

Okay, so go ahead anyway.

Yeah, the jeff Links, the jeff Links.

Sorry, sorry, the jeff Links.

I'm obsessed, uh, as with everything else in this episode.

I love the Jefflings.

I'm so glad to have the Jefflings.

I'm so glad they're here to be like, hey there's shadows, watch out.

But we can't just tell you because if we just tell you, it's like the thing where it's like when somebody needs to like have some kind of breakthrough.

It's like therapy, like the like therapy.

They're like, well, we can't tell you.

We can't just tell you what you need to do.

You need to do this out for yourself or it's not really gonna stick.

So that to me all the time, Like it's turned to me and I'll be like I had a revelation.

He goes about the thing that I was like working on, and he goes, I was hoping you get here, because.

Though no, it's no.

The problem is is that I am married to so I think we are both old souls in different ways.

Gus has done Earth like eight million times, so nothing surprises him anymore, whereas I think I've been around to a lot of planets, so I'm like psyched to be here, but I don't know what the fuck is going on.

So you're also, yeah, I was, I was in before this.

So I always joke with my friend.

She's like she'll talk to me and she'll be like, my little alien princess, this what she calls me.

And I'm always like, that's not how we did it on Zepzorp, you know what I mean, Like we don't we didn't do it that way, and I'm experiencing humanity for like the first time, and then yeah, Gus is like, Gus is like I've done this same level eighty thousand times.

I know every like Gap, I know every pixel of this planet.

Oh that reminds me I need to buy clothes, Gap.

Okay, I have no idea where I came from.

Okay, I think you were gonna read a quote.

You had something you wanted to say.

No, no, no, no no no no, I mean no, not specifically, no, not no.

It was it was another thing about passive thank you, thank you.

Okay, the range your outfits, because the people were asking like, were they obviously this is the nineties, were they like inspired by Walker, Texas Ranger whatever.

The Ranger outfits were meant to mirror Minbari clothes because they're coming from minbar So that's what they're supposed to.

Remind you of.

Okay, that makes sense.

I do want to say, though, I do.

This is not the first time, so okay, this is not about the clothes, but it was.

It's relevant to what we were watching, which is like like seeing people in a crowd, right right.

I am struggling with the decisions to say, we have to have this important conversation and these words that aren't supposed to be said outlined in the middle of an episode, there's something that's like, don't tell anybody I was here talking to you and that you know me.

Yeah, well, like I'm literally sitting here between nine Eve and the lane from the Wheel of Time.

And in season two they did the exact same thing talking in the Streets of Fall.

I remember ranting about it in my reactions.

Like, yeah, that's a pelieve.

I have seen like espionage movies and I have read book.

I think it was fiction about this.

It's like, if you need to have a highly sensitive conversation, sometimes the best place you can do it is just in a crowded room where pay nobody will listen to you.

That's true.

I remember in Harry Potter hashtag trans Lives Matter, they they decided to have a meeting in that one like little like bar and where nobody was No in the bar, where nobody was it was about it was about double Doore's army, and like somebody overheard that and then like serious Black I think was the one who said you should have had it at the three Broomsticks because no one would have like thought twice about like a bunch of students sitting around talking.

Maybe that's what I was remembering.

I don't know that.

I will say, like I think Jen, it was you who called it out.

When they were talking Rea and uh Londo, we're talking and and Narn walked by them, You're like, is that a Narn?

Just right?

He actually brings that up.

He's like, no, the Narn was doing their own thing like they were.

But I know, but I know, but I'm like still, I'm just like, it's one thing too to like have a conversation and it's like, Okay, you were saying it casually blah blah blah, but they're literally, yeah, they're seeing things like here are words that cannot be shared with other people.

There was something two or three weeks ago that was the same thing.

It was just like he was like, thank you for telling me the secret here in secret in this public.

Hallway on the bridge going do you think that they know that it's humans have Minbari souls?

That was you know what my my head canon for that one.

Yeahava thinks it's bullshit.

She doesn't believe it.

So she's just like she's like, oh, do you know that they believe that elephants fly?

This fucking guy, She says, wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, this is the script.

You were going to ask about something, but you said, is this was this?

I wonder if this was in the script or it was it was if it was just directed that way or an active choice about Londo.

This is available, there's there's a Writer's Digest Books created has a book called The Complete Book of Script Writing, and the script for this entire episode is printed.

I might ordering.

I have the I S b N is on here as well.

That's gonna that's going to arrive at our house.

A writing you're already googling it.

It might it might.

I can't read it.

Could be here.

It's oops, because he has written this.

He did write a screenwriting book.

Actually that's what this is.

You can't yeah, yeah, yeah, but you're right.

You can't read it yet because he's going to talk about more.

He's got to talk about stuff and I can't look at it.

Yeah, you're still gonna buy it.

At it, you can look at it.

You're gonna buy it.

No, you're gonna ask me for like three days if you should buy I'm going to buy it.

Because it's got spoilers and I'm not allowed to even know it exists.

You can't have it, No, do you have not?

Why would I buy the book if I can't even look at it?

Because you can look at it eventually.

Why don't I buy it?

Because you're gonna forget?

No, I won't.

Oh yeah, you won't.

I would, you won't, No, Gus.

Gus's brain is like still trap it.

It's it's alarmed.

Because he's staying here eight million names.

If And I should also say that I actually was going to go check my shelf because I write around this corner.

I have this really lovely book site.

This bookshelf is tiny, pretty small bookshelf that I got from back in the day Ali and Guts in La.

In the early days of meeting in La, you could there were a couple of stories.

There's one in Hollywood, there's one in Burbank or not.

Yeah, there's one in Burbank, maybe one and no ho that were screenwriting like screenplay stores, and you could walk in and there were like people would bring their screenplays from like Okay, we just shot this episode, I'm going to bring it over here.

Yeah, and you could go in and you could buy and they were all like they're written the titles right on the side and the binding and I have a whole shelf.

And then when one of them was going out of business, we bought one of their shelves because they feel perfectly.

Yeah, yeah, cool.

And it's so great.

So we have a bunch of like I mean, well, we have the first script of Toy Story and you know, different versions of Empire Strikes Back, and they're hard to find.

It used to be even easier to find them online, and now everything all you can find is people's transcript transcripts, which are terrible.

I hate the transcript.

Is this one website so bad?

Script on it?

That's pretty good scripts?

Know if I should say that, well there I like script slug script slug.

Ye.

I'm going to bring up something.

I don't know if this will be interesting to you, but it just struck because he goes on for a while about this in the notes, I think because they were talking about the Hugo and the awards.

Do you know any of you know what the s f w A stands for or the s s F s f f w.

A Writers Association.

Yes, yeah, he resigned from them because they decided that script writing was not real writing and so they wouldn't nominate.

I hate writers.

I hate writers.

I'm going to put this out there.

I hate writers because this is what we do.

We do bullshit like this.

We go like, oh, you know, it's not real writing, and then you talk about.

Well, animation, re.

Writing.

I'm like, shut the fuck up, Like if you wrote you it's writing.

Yeah, and it's.

Always clean there right.

In my life.

He said.

Yeah, I hate created.

Sometimes I love us amazing the best, but we get snobby for no reason.

For no reason, he said.

He got like really vitriolic emails, and he remembers one that he said he was emblematic of the whole.

He says, one email he got, I work my ass off writing for pennies a word, while all you hacks on in TV churn out crap for thousands of dollars a page.

You and your LA buddies will never get a dramatic nebula as long as I'm alive.

So he was just like this a.

Lot, Well, that's just sorry.

You're a ship writer.

One.

Also, you know what you got into when you became a writer.

We all know what we got into.

One of us were like, oh, we're going to be flashed with cash.

This is you get rich quick scheme.

Everybody, if you're not respectfully, if you're not Londo Malari, you know what you got yourself into.

The Other thing is that, like, here's what's crazy is that if you asked, if you ask people in the fiction world, like, like, it took a very long time, and it still is considered sci fi and fantasy.

It's still considered not it's it doesn't have the same Always there's.

Always some writer who's like, what you're doing.

Cannot stand snobbery in literal job.

They're better than fantasy or no, they'll think they're better than sci fi.

I think they're better than fantasy.

Fantasy thinks they're better than romance.

Like it's just do you.

Know the Yeah, I hate shit, it's so stupid.

This is long whatever.

I just like live.

But I feel like everybody here will enjoy this even though it is long.

Yes, I have to leave.

But he has to leave.

But she's heard this before.

Okay, so this wasnt a Q and A or like an interview of some kind.

And this person I don't know who it is, says to Terry Pratchett, you're quite a writer.

You have a gift for language, you're a deft handed plotting, and your books seem to have an enormous amount attention to detail put into them.

You're so good you could write anything.

Why write fantasy?

And Terry Pratchett says, I had a decent lunch and I'm feeling quite amiable, and that's why you're still alive.

I think you'd have to explain to me why you've asked that question.

And the guy says it's a rather guests your why genre, and Pratchett says, essentially, I'll paraphrase this part.

But he goes like, okay, all my books sell insanely.

Well, soun me run that by me again.

And the guy goes, well, it's certainly regardless as less than serious fiction.

And this is the part I'm going to read all of because it's great and it's long.

And Terry Pratchett says, without a shadow of a doubt, the first fiction ever recounted was Fantasy.

Guys sitting around the Campfire?

Was it you who wrote the review?

I thought I recognized it.

Guys sitting around the campfire telling each other stories about the gods who made lightning and stuff like that.

They did not tell one in other literary stories.

They did not complain about difficulties of male menopause while being a junior lecturer on a Midwestern college campus.

Fantasy is, without a shadow of a doubt, the or literature the spring from which all other literature has flown up to a few hundred years ago.

No one would have disagreed with this, because most stories were in some sense fantasy.

Back in the Middle Ages, people wouldn't have thought twice about bringing in death as a character who would have a role to play in the story.

Echoes of this can be seen in Pilgrim's Progress, for example, which harken back to a much earlier type of storytelling.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is one of the earliest works of literature, and by the standard we would apply now, big muscular guys with swords and certain godlike connections, that's fantasy.

The national literature of Finland, the Kalavala BeO wolf in England, I can't pronounce bagavad Gita, but the Indian one, you know what I mean.

The national literature, the one that underpins everything else.

By the standards that we apply now are works of fantasy.

I don't know what you consider the national nat I don't know what you consider the national literature of America.

But if the words MOBI did are inching their way towards this conversation, whatever else it was, it was also a work of fantasy.

Fantasy is a kind of plasma in which other things can be carried.

I don't think this is a ghetto.

This is fantasy is almost a sea in which other genres swim.

Now, it may be that there has developed, in the last couple of one hundred years a subset of fantasy which merely uses a different iconography.

And that is, if you'd like the serious literature, the Booker Prize contender.

Fantasy can be serious literature.

Fantasy has often been serious literature.

You have to be fairly dense to think that Gulliver's Travels is only a story about a guy having a real fun time among big people and little people and horses and stuff like that.

What the book was about was something else.

Fantasy can carry quite a serious burden, and so can humor.

So what you're saying is strip away the trolls and the dwarfs and things and put everyone into modern dress and get them to agonize a bit, mention Virginia Wolf a few times and hey, there, I've got a serious novel.

But you don't actually have to do that, so so true.

Good.

Yeah, it's excellent terry practice.

One, didn't we all just want like it's it's the holidays, Yeah, Charles Dickens Christmas Carol ghosts kind of.

Fantasy, I kind of literally fantasy.

Or yes, fine, if you're watching them Uppet version.

That's right, that's right.

I like the Albert Finney version.

That's my favorite one.

That's lovely.

It is lovely.

But yeah, anyway, I brought that up just because you know, we're dealing talking with writers about this and there's like if if you get to the bottom of the Lurker's Guide, he talks about it a lot because I don't know, I guess just came up in conversation about this particular award and.

Then yeah, and then goes off.

I mean as I would, as I have many times and continue to do.

Yeah, do you have anything else you want to talk about?

From this episode?

We talked about the Rangers, the the.

Jeff Jeff of it all, Jef a cool thing, that I thought was interesting.

I never noticed and like never occurred to me until reading The Lurker's Guide.

The reason that Jeff doesn't say Hey Garibaldi or Hey Delenn.

He says, hey, hello, old friend, is so that in case the Crystal goes visa.

Yeah, nobody knows who the message is going to.

I was gonna say I would never thought about that.

I was just like, of course, that's how Jeff greets people.

Yeah, that's no, it's great, that's great.

I hope we learn more about what he said to the line at some point.

But that feels like a season three thing.

So I have a piece of food that's that says hello, old friend, watch me.

How do you feel about tomatoes?

Yeah?

I don't know.

I'm excited.

My ray just went back to that dream again last night.

He was just in every single sea.

It's just love that so much.

I just and I also love that you were like dreaming in anticipation of this particular moment in time.

It's so fucking good.

In my dream, I was aware that that was not right.

Yes, I had a dream the other day that I was not going to get enough credits to finish my bachelor's degree.

And then midway through the dream, I went, I'm in my thirties.

I graduated a long time ago.

Well, I guess I should probably make sure I've passed this English class.

Anyway, our brains are weird.

Our brains are weird.

I actually met somebody, not met somebody I know, somebody I won't say who they are, who said that they have not remembered a dream or maybe dreamt and I'm like, no, you've been dreaming, you just haven't remembered them in like many years.

This was a young person.

Wow, a young person who's like sixteen, and they were like in many, many many years.

This is I haven't remembered a dream since I was a child.

They're sleeping real good, is what's happening?

Right?

Real good?

I remember all of my dreams, am I.

I guess I'm not.

You're sleeping real bad.

To my understanding, I'm not a sleep doctor, I'm not a specialist.

But to my understanding, you only remember your dream if you wake up during it.

Okay, it is, It's cool, yes, if I think you have to, even like even if you're on the tail end of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like every single Like I don't I don't remember them all day, but like I never wake up and don't remember when I dreat interesting.

Interesting.

There's a I actually was writing.

I was supposed to write an episode of Magic school Bus Rides again.

I think I mentioned it last time.

I said it was all about the I wrote the one about the about time zones, because time zones are a human construct.

You're so cool, I'm not.

This is the new one.

Anyway, Before I was writing the one about time zones, which are a human construct and not really science, not hard sciences if you ask me, which I forgot.

We just watched the end of it on New Year's Eve because it takes place in New Years Eve, and at the end of it, like there's a disclaimer of like it's not hard science, and I was like, oh yeah, I made sure I wanted to put that in it.

But before that, I was writing one that was about sleep and dreams and about all the different sleep cycles that like was science based.

And then we decided that was boring and I didn't decide that, someone else decided it, and then we changed it to the time zones.

But so I did a deep dive of studying of sleep and sleep cycles and what your brain's doing in different cycles.

I still don't know enough about it, though it's.

A man so cool.

I only know.

I kind of got confirmed on the you only remember them if you're awake for part of it, because Ali remembered most of her dreams until she got a cepath machine, and now she doesn't remember any of them.

So wow, I would miss it.

If I stopped remembering my dreams, I'd miss it.

Yeah, sure, I literally, since I was a child, I've never woken up and not knowing what happened in my brain while I was this.

That's so cool.

It's pretty cool.

That's really cool.

Yeah, I don't remember.

I don't remember dreams for like five years ago, but like that first time the day, that's what I'm doing.

Yeah, I'm one other thing from the Lurkers guy, I think only one.

But then I wanted to read this because I thought you would find it interesting.

When Okay, the actor who does Coush's voice, I'm assuming their name is Ardwright because he says, when Ardwright comes in to do cash, they call me in to direct his performance, so that it matches what the intent is now.

So I guess they weren't doing that before.

They were just letting him do whatever he did and how it will be interpreted later.

From where I sit in the control room, I can't see him.

I can only hear his voice.

So it's kind of like talking with Kosh there and me going, okay, can you try in fire hitting the second word harder with a sense of some anger behind it or whatever.

And between takes he's still in Cash mode, Kush speak mode, muttering things like, oh, well, I talk to my agent.

Oh my god, that's so great.

That's so great, Oh my god, thanks.

Really funny character.

No, no, it's a but that that also brings up another point, which is when you have a character like Cash who is somewhat prescient, like you know, somewhat able to like we think he's tapped in in some way to the future, or he's like says things that are clearly tapped in the future.

You know, I was just talking about this with them.

Oh, I was talking about this with a friend of mine who directed you guys, still have more Strange New Things.

She directed a really good episode of Strange New Things from this season that happens to be a little bit of a Kirk.

At the beginning of Kirk and Spock, and I saw the the actor Paul Wesley, who plays Kirk interviewed who said when someone was like, was it so amazing to be like shooting the episode where you know, like you're creating this amazing relationship in these characters.

It's the first time they're like doing something together.

And he was like, yeah, I think he told you.

And he was like, no, it's none of my business.

It's none of my business.

And and Valerie, my friend who directed that episode, was saying that like she had gotten that advice from somebody as well, who was like, you know, it's none of it's none of the it's none of their business, and don't.

So it's always a tricky thing when you haven't like JMS directing this actor who's playing Cash because KSh it is his business.

He does know, Like, so what is he telling him and how much is he sharing with him?

And hopefully he's not sharing everything with everybody else, And it was just like I think we talked about it too.

It was like the like the table read for the last episode of Game of Thrones and yeah, when Kit Harrington didn't know what was coming, Yeah, I just I love I love all of that.

So much, and I love I love the sort of complexity of the fact that we are all making this shit up.

It is all fake and how much do we know not know share to for authenticity and it's just fun.

Well speaking of that, like, I won't say, well, I don't think he actually gives details, but he does talk about how that scene of Londo out looking at the sky like he and all of the stuff in his dreams.

He said, I don't like to tell actors what's going to happen, but I kind of had to tell him.

Oh yeah, he could act, Like so Peter Jurassic has information that other people maybe don't have because he had to know how to act those scenes.

That makes sense, Yeah, yeah.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Man, the shadows suck, dude.

They're kind of chunked.

Worfield's all right, Yeah, I get why we didn't have him.

It's more dramatic to not have him in the episode, but it's.

More about I think longdo I think?

Yeah?

It was also I actually did not remember this aspect of it, which was I mean, like the whole Veer of it all and Veer being like, you know what you're doing, doesn't isn't right?

Like that that is clear for me.

I didn't remember i Verer being like, I'll go get him, Like yeah, I was like, what, you know, I understand you're still not your your conscientious objector you're not objecting yet.

You know, you're not yet a conscientiactor.

He's a weird position because if he doesn't go get him, Londo's just going to go get him, right Like, so it's just a case.

I understand I wouldn't want to touch it myself, But I also like, if I don't do it, what does that change literally anything?

And if I say, do I have any kind of can I have any kind of dampening effect on on what Londo's.

Going to be done?

And also if I don't go get him, Londo might fire me and then I won't be able to do anything about this at the time in the future exactly.

The other good thing, by the way, but not having Andrew Garfield mister Morton in the scene, is that when Londo's having his dream, I was going, has he talked to him yet?

Yeah?

Or is this going to be the thing that makes him not do it anyway and goes it has be gone?

I went, ah, fuck, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

That was a really nice choice because we didn't get to see him speak to him, and we didn't know.

Yeah, right, okay, now I'm excited.

I did buy the I already about.

The book, yay.

And it was the last copy of the paperback on Amazon, the hardback rather, so you can't buy that.

You can't buy have that.

I've protected you.

I've protected you.

I saved you from yourself.

Thank you very much, thank you.

But you can borrow it in a couple later.

Yeah, yay.

And I don't know what is the sixty six plus fourteen eighty weeks?

There we go.

Yeah, I don't know that I have any more things I want to talk to you about.

Guess do you have anything?

No?

I love this show.

Oh I'm sorry.

No, no, no, no, fine, And yeah, I don't have anything else either.

That was like not, I mean, you know, this is a very never mind, I can say it nothing la la la la la la la.

I mean, this is a very It's just it's just so well done, like the you know, the Emperor Empire, Emperor sorry, wanting to apologize.

And getting got like the timing of everything, like getting the apology in there while.

While that message is being related the wars being start and the.

Bar scene the.

God jen I'll I can bribe you to finish that sentence.

Sorr ahead ahead, that's it.

I just it's it's getting good anyway.

That's really good.

That's good.

I'll let you guys do great counsel.

I'm gonna go read the Dungeon Anarchist Cookbook because I love those books.

That's three.

That's three, yea, all right, great, thanks, have fun.

I wish I could stay, but I can't.

Spoilers.

Ah, my friends, you have reached the most dangerous part of our journey, the Gray Council.

Here we speak of things that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers.

If you are not ready, turned back now that if you dare to proceed, I promise you.

It will be.

Manificent mister Geibaldi.

All right, I'll finish the sentence now.

The seence doesn't really it wasn't actually anything important other than this is a really fucking long lurkers guide.

I was gonna say it's a really long lurkers guide.

But there wasn't anything else that I felt like I needed to cover, Like, you know, while he was here and stuff, but part of the it so long as that he talks about the Hugo for a really long time, and he talks about the the w A and he and he also talks at the like earlier, he talks a lot about like he's just talking about costuming a lot.

There's just and it makes sense.

I mean, of course, it's just it is a pivotal episode obviously, which we knew because of the title.

So yes, yeah, you know, but the ganet Greek of it all too.

Exactly exactly, but there wasn't anything else.

I felt like, you know, needed to no.

I I wanted to bring that up with Londo looking like somewhat chastened by uh you referred.

Thank you.

I remember the characters.

It's okay, everybody.

Jen's not Jenny's not having a stroke, I promise, very good.

She's so crazy, she.

Was just her eyes were just spinning in circles for a little second, but with a very small grin.

But when Delenne said that to him, because later we're going to see that, he doesn't act like that, Like right now, he's still a little bit he's doing it, but he's ashamed.

He's a little ashamed of what he's done, and later he's not going to have that and that's an arc that he has.

And it's interesting.

Yeah, and it's interesting how he's playing it right now too.

I had the same thought because the place where it was really noticeable to me actually was the last scene with Reefa, because he's just like getting about it again kind of and like really comfortable in that space, and I was like, okay, just like just a second ago, you were with Jakar and being like, what the fuck have I done?

Then you were looking chagrined with Delenne and what's fun and interesting?

And so I'm glad we touched on it in this one.

I'm glad we got to see all sort of three of those places, which is like straight up regret, Oh what the fuck?

And then like, oh, I know, I kind of maybe shouldn't have it a little bit, and then like just to see him comfortably being like it's when Refa says, we're going to let them fight it out, but you know, it's creating a space for us, and you know the new Emperor will be happy with you or whatever.

The new Emperor's cartagio, which is that actor has so much fun.

He is the most Oh he's so good, he choose the scenery and beautiful.

He's horrible, he's a horrible person.

He's absolutely beautiful.

But very entertaining to watch.

Yes, yeah, and it was really it was great to like Londo was just like good, our plans are coming together, and it was it was this little glimpse of future Londo, and I was like, oh my god, like I didn't remember that we were going to get that sort of view of him just being very comfortable in his ability.

Well, that was one of the things I was thinking here, and I will also try not to get to into current events with it.

But one of the things of having the shadows do it is that it's far away, so he's not actually like his hands aren't dirty, like, so he's there's a horror that's happened at his behest, but he doesn't have to see or feel any of the effect that, so it can feel like it's just oh, yeah, you know, I don't know any of those people.

I didn't see it.

I wasn't there, I didn't do it.

I just sent a message.

That's literally the only thing I did.

And there's a lightness to that that is, or that he is feeling in that that I think.

Is it allows him, allows him to separate himself from it and feel like it's not as bad as it is, or that what he's doing is not as bad.

And I also love that we're getting already this glimpse of him being very comfortable in the space, so that we'll have somewhere to come back from.

Yes, way, yeah, way later.

I Reefa, I think is another love to hate him character he is.

I think they intentionally, your jms intentionally put Reefa there to be a he is.

He is Londo's partner, but he is He.

Is what allows me, I think, for myself personally, to not hate, ever hate Londo, because Refa is so much worse, is in it for himself, and Refa only wants power, whereas Londo he will take the power and everything.

But Londo legitimately is trying doing what he thinks will make things better for Centauri like that, and he doesn't care about another species, so it's still like a level of selfishness that is horrible, but like.

One of Londo's most honorable moments is when the Shadows are about to attack Centauri, he basically asks Verr to kill him because he knows that that that he's the reason, like they're gonna or not the Vorlon's.

The Vorlons are going to attack Centauri Prime, and he's like, oh, it's because of me.

Kill me, kill me, kill me now, Refa would never have done that.

Correct, And even you know, and even his like when Vere is like, well you want to be emperor right, like you know, him tiptoeing around that was kind of like, well, no, I'm just I'm just here for for us and for all of us, which is a half truth because he is and he would be if he would want to be what emperor if he didn't know that he had this vision of what his future looks like if he emperor.

So it's kind of a you know, the truth.

There is a point later where he does like he doesn't.

He will say it even more explicitly, how he doesn't want to be in as he likes the things that come with Right now, he gets the benefits without any of the specific whoe my market microhone, just without the specific responsibility, like he's just he just has to send messages.

He doesn't have the burden of responsibility, whereas an emperor you have the burden.

Yes, yes, yes, exactly.

And he also and you know, and the whole idea of like working from behind the scenes, not having that attention and that you know, and we also just heard the Emperor say I've just spent a lifetime not being able to make decisions.

Yeah, any choices, and so you know, I think Londa's not stupid enough to not understand that, but he's.

Not eager for that.

I don't think he ever Later on, though, I think he's he's a I mean, he's anna say he's a human.

He's not.

He's a complex, right dimensional character who has fast and whatever.

So there are times where it's like, oh, I think at this point in the story, I think he might have taken the emperor job willingly and happily.

But yes, I don't think as.

If you take his whole arc as a whole, I don't think he ever wanted that, whereas I do think Refa does.

I think Refa would happily have taken the throne.

Yeah.

I also thought it was interesting that he chose to lie about what the Emperor said, knowing full well that the telepaths were standing right there.

No, Yeah, I thought that was really interesting.

Like I was like you.

You know, everybody knows their telepaths.

Everybody knows that they're there listening.

Like your choice to lie in that moment is so easily easily disproved, easily disproved.

It was a strange choice, and it wasn't also well, I mean, Reefa should have just not asked him in front of everybody, you know what I mean, Like it was like it was just but obviously for interesting reasons of writing, yeah, you're going to do that.

But yeah, I wonder because the telepaths basically just ran away.

Wonder if it was a case of them knowing, oh, we have no power because like the Prime Minister was getting killed and basically those telepaths are going to either get killed or have to get exiled or something.

I'm not sure, right, yeah, yeah.

There was no I mean, why would you at this point?

But there was no discussion of like why Jakar was killing Londo.

And I mean, of course at this point you're watching the show, is like, yeah, of course Jakar is trying to kill Londo in his dream because Jakar hates Londo.

That's absolutely the case, But that is not how that happens.

It's just such a cool thing that that is.

That is that is cash or not fuck.

That is Jakar doing a favor to Londo and killing him when he can't do it himself.

And because at.

That point in their story they're actually friends.

It's such a there are I love their story.

It's so good.

It's good and it's a really to me, that's such a story device of what you think you see isn't what is really happening, and what you think a prophecy means, like we see it so often in prophecy, Like we think we understand this, so what someone tells us about the future or what we see about the future in a scrying pool, but it's often wrong.

And like this is another version of that, Like you're making decisions based on this thing that you see that you think you understand, that you don't understand.

But it's the decisions that you're making now that are going to lead to that moment.

So in a way, I just I like, I like the parallax of it or the the paradox of it.

Yeah, absolutely, it's it's what it's so good.

I was thinking while watching it.

Londo, of all of our characters, I think he gets the most prophecies like they got the techno age got his dreams obviously, and later on majo Bert like is it Magel or Major.

She's going to say, Machel, but.

She's going to come in and also give him a prophecy that he is going to Oh, there's debate about whether he actually does the things in the prophecy or not.

But yeah, it's like he just people.

People don't really do that as much for.

I'm gonna think.

I think Bruce maybe gets one.

Bruce, Jenny, Bruce, Bruce, Bruce Well and Leada not Lyda, Jesus Talia.

I got something from Cash.

Oh that's true.

That's true, you know.

Not exactly a prophecy.

Prophecy esque kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is true.

I had another thought just now and it jumped into my head, and now it's gone.

Bruce, Bruce.

You were saying, Bruce, and that derailed you before Bruce.

Who else gets?

Who else gets prophecies?

I should.

No, I don't think it was Leda.

I saw the most amazing picture.

Sorry, this is not gonna Maybe this will help you remember, maybe it won't tell me.

I said this great picture of the whole cast.

I don't know where they were, the one with them flipping everybody else.

Looking everybody off in such a good picture.

I love that picture.

That's a good picture.

And I almost almost shared it on our thread and I was like.

Oh my god, it's.

Literally just a line of spoilers.

Yeah, I know it.

No, I can't remember.

There was a thought in my brain and I can't remember what it was.

Okay, it's gone.

I might remember it in another conversation.

You will, you will.

You're never going to talk about Babylon five again.

I can't imagine, okay.

So I'm also like, I was like, wait a minute, Sheridan telling Garibaldi not to tell it was really not to tell.

Wait shit, Sinclair telling Garbaldi not to tell Sheridan where the information is coming from.

But he didn't say don't trust him, and he didn't say, which it was good because I was like, wa, wait, is this gonna lead into garbal But then he was like and then Garibaldi immediately going and be like, here's the information you need to know.

I can't tell you where it's coming from.

And I loved that exchange when he was like, no, I can't tell you where, because then you won't trust me with information later, because you'll assume our spills to somebody else.

Yeah, Like that's best logic of like I mean, you know, simple logic, but like best logic.

I just I love that.

I love love that.

And even the way he like he touched it and like you could order me to but then then you won't ever trust me because somebody above you could order me.

Like that's just not how it works.

Yeah, it's perfect.

That really is good?

Is great?

That's great?

Yeah, and it like Jeff will come back next season and then we'll get like a nice Jeff Jeff the full.

Episode, Jeff episode, jeffisode.

Je episode.

You'll be quite happy by that because that will be a Babylon four episode, right.

Right because we yeah yeah yeah yeah, because we get is that and that's what zathris right, yes yeah.

Yah yeah, just comes back other times as well.

Yeah, but without it is yeah.

Yeah.

Sorry, I'm still trying to pull that thought out of my brain and I can't exact make crazy.

I'll remember it later.

I'll remember it later today while I'm teaching, and it will be yes, very weird and frustrating for my students.

Yea, hang on, I did enjoy it.

I always enjoy a Kiniki sighting love some seves and I was like, oh cool, because it's not going to be enough Sack to think that we need to really think about it.

But I want to mention it because if I don't mention it, then they're going to be like, why is she not talking about Kaniki because she was kind of excited when shows up.

So I was like, I'm just gonna throw it out there and just be like, there is gone.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I feel he will get progressively larger in the story.

Yeah, and as things go on.

Yeah, I think I might be out of things to say for this pivotal episode.

It's really really.

So much that we did.

We did, oh yes, yeah, yes, we can end it here.

Yeah, So please thank you for joining us, and like the video, subscribe can join our Patreon and you can get early access to stuff after the versions of the audio podcast.

You can also get unedited I said it right this time edited versions of the reactions and you can help me out for doing the previous.

These because I would love that so so much.

With that, Yeah, thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time.

Bout Alon