We really felt not only did a step on Ezra story, but it was like a retread up.

Okay, we already did this, so yeah, the idea of Subam training as a Jedi when she is already you know, this fantastic warrior of her own type, we felt like, well, this is overkill.

What's up, guys, you're listening to Potter Rebellion.

It's Taylor Gray here, Specter six, Ezra Bridger, and with us we have Hey.

What's up, everybody?

It's Vanessa Marshall, the voice of Harrison Doula, Specter two.

And today we also have.

Hello, Hello, it's tsur Car voice of Sabine Ryan, Specter five.

And along with us for this ride today.

We have everybody.

It's your friendly neighborhood moderator John Lee Brody, and today we are discussing Star Wars Rebel Season two, episode thirteen, the Protector of Concord.

But that's not all.

We have a very special guest joining us today.

What our you know, what our guest today is the world of animation is kind of like what Indiana Jones is, the archaeology and world travel, whether it's facing the dark vengeance of Gotham City, or the Dark Sewers in New York City, or the sun drin Savannah outside of Pride Rock.

This man, like Johnny Cash, has been everywhere, and yes, that of course includes galaxies from a long time ago that are far far away.

And on top of that, he's also graduate of the prestigious Acne University.

This man has done it all, and today he's on our pod, and it's with great pleasure we welcome this true master of rhetoric and true oracle of all facets of the Hero's journey.

Please welcome to the Potter Rebellion, mister Henry Gilroy, Hey.

Potters, thank you so much for having me.

As my great pleasure and honor to be here with you today.

I have to say I feel very fortunate because I am also, i think, with one of the greatest animated casts ever revent assembled.

So that's very kind clipping clipping me the ACME Academy, it was just like are you saying it?

Just like ACME Tiny Twon Adventures, Henry, Right, you worked there.

Yeah, My first professional studio job was on Tinytoon Adventures for Warner Brothers Animation.

It was my first studio job, and actually that's how I got on to Batman, the animated series where I sold my first script.

Was I was working in editorial, and the great thing about working in editorial is you kind of learned the nuts and bolts of animation.

You kind of see Pea production and Pus production, so you see how the sausage is made.

So, uh, Bruce tim Eric Rodomsky were brand new producers, and I wanted to be a writer, and I was going to writing school at night while I was editing during the day, and I put like ideas under their door every single day until they finally said, okay, stop, just here write this one.

And then that's how I got my first writing assignment.

We love it.

You got to be relentless in this business, right, like absolutely.

If you just take no for an answer, you might never ever work Batman.

Was this is this Kevin Conroy?

Or yeah, Kevin Conroy?

Yeah, I tell those story too, which is, well, we can we can talk about after.

I'll tell you how I was the very first voice of the animated Batman at Warner Brothers.

Well, that's what I was gonna ask, are we doing the should we are we doing the first episode?

As like interviewing Henry exact questions, are we doing the show first, and then.

We're gonna do the show first?

Because yeah, and then well, but not only questions for you, Henry, Oh yeah, and I just will say this and we'll circle back to Batman when we get to the further end the conversation.

Not only did you write an episode, you wrote one of the most popular episodes in ten words in that episode are probably some of the most quoted, most memed.

I think the lakery Kevin Coronry was probably asked most to recite these lines, which was I am Vengeance, I'm the Knight, I am Batman, which you did that?

Yeah, crazy, Yeah, I know it's insane.

And I can't take full credit that.

I read so many Batman comic books when I was growing up, and my mom always said, why are you wasting your time on those comic books?

I got to come around and say, hey, Mom, yeah, do you want to go to that?

Do you want to go to the Emmys with me?

For writing cartoons?

That's amazing.

I love that amazing, and that mentality parlays perfectly into what you did with Star Wars, this whole character expansion and really protecting the lore and really honoring the lore, and I guess, with all that, should we get into this episode because I feel like Henry's gonna have maybe some inside baseball knowledge on this episode.

He might know a thing or two about this.

Yeah, which we're here for all of them.

So what we do is I do a little recap.

I don't know if you've been listening to the podcast.

I recap it, and then it just opens it up for one big discussion.

So everybody, here comes the recap for season two, episode thirteen, The Protector of Concord Dawn.

Original air date January twenty seven, twenty sixteen.

And here we go.

My runs are getting more and more difficult for Phoenix Squadron, and they are in need of a new hyper space route and fast.

Sabin knows a one at Concordan, but it would require winning over some Mandalorians, most likely through combat, but Hara is certain that diplomacy is the way and that these Mandalorians could potentially become a powerful ally.

However, it turns out these Mandalorians, known as the Protectors, already signed a letter of intent with the Empire and Concord Dawn, like the Kenny Loggin song, is the Highway to the danger zone the protector's open fire, which results in casualties and Hara being severely injured.

Sabine vows revenge, but Kanaan assists that he will be makee like Han and fly solo to deal with the situation.

But Sabina is.

Like Machiavellian Mandalorian armour, willing to do whatever it takes to make things right.

She takes on board the Phantom and has the concord dawn with Canaan.

The Jedi and the Mandalorian don't agree on what approach you take.

Canaan is more Miagi do, trying to use logic and reason, where Sabine is more than cobra Kai wanted to strike first and strike hard.

Canaan's reasoning approach hits a wall because trying to get through the fend Rau prus as difficult as breaking through the best gar armor he wears.

Meanwhile, after getting caught by the other Protector, Sabine ends up in a good bed ugly type standoff with fen Raw.

Thanks to the Mandalorian code of honor, and through her quick draw and quicker thinking and a fistful of explosives, she takes everyone, including Kanaan by surprise, Raw like Forrest Gump, tries to make a run for it, but Kanaan chased him down like is Don Dbie and Super Bowl twenty seven.

And at the end of it all, Canaan and Sabine figure out a way for both of their approaches to code exists, making for the ultimate embodiment of Yin Yang.

They now have fen round custody and say passage through the Concord Dawn system.

But hang on, that's not all.

The episode ends with Haral waking up and getting the positive news on everything that's happened, making her the ultimate proud Space mom.

As we cut to the title card and roll credits, and that is the rika for season two, episode thirteen, The.

Protector of Concord.

We've done well.

We have the writer in the house.

I had to step my game up.

I was wondering if that added extra pressure on you, John, because.

In the best way.

Yeah, good well you you you crushed it.

Shit I appreciate.

So let's open it up.

Initial thoughts, Henry, when you you rewatched the episode before you came on here, so what what sort of key memories were unlocked?

If you will revisiting those.

Yeah, something kind of really fun was I've been wanting to do Concord Down since Clone Wars days, which is really amazing, which were my very first actually, like I pitched like a handful of premises to George in the very beginning, and actually Concord Dawn was part of it, and he was like, I don't want to do Mandalorians, you know, not right now, because I think he was still kind of figuring out what they were.

But I was like, I want to go back to there.

I just love the visual of this broken planet, but also the society who was consumed with war.

That's all we ever knew.

So this story was like, Oh, we finally get to actually bring the Mandalorians into rebels, and hopefully in a new way.

I think the work.

I didn't really participate in the Clone Wars episodes of the Mandalor stories, but I really loved, you know, how Damned Company like kind of developed those stories out.

So this was an opportunity for me to actually pitch an idea that you know, ultimately was kind of cool and also was a new way of seeing the mental Oureans.

Oh they've got white armor there with the Empire, which I just thought was really fun.

Wait, so this is your I mean, this was your you conceived of this and and wrote it.

Yeah.

So, as a as the I was like the one staff writer, like a co executive producer on Clone Wars.

So basically every single script that comes through you guys saw came through my computer like usually first.

So whenever we'd break stories, usually I would come up with, like, here's a plan for the season, or here's a few episodes for like the first half of the season, and then we'd break those together.

But generally speaking, yeah, as a story editor, I sit down and I guess.

I guess in live actions to executive producer of the show runner type basically person.

Oh and wait, concord down, you said you've been wanting to it since Clone Wars.

It's what it is, the home of Django feed.

But outside of that, there hasn't been a reference of it from films or is that.

Am I easy?

Yeah?

It was never in the films.

It was in a game, I believe, and also some novels, and then actually I believe it's in the comics too.

But I just like the idea of you know, who would still live on this place.

They're on this dusty rock in the middle of nowhere.

It's like, these guys just want to fight.

They live to fight.

So I like the idea of Harrah coming in like, you know what, we're going to negotiate with these guys, and so it beings like, yeah, that's that's not she knows it's not going to work, so she's ready to fight.

But what I love about it is Cain and going, you know what, I'm going to prove Hara right and that we can negotiate.

So as soon as as soon as Kanan, like he might have wanted revenge, but as soon as he hears that fen Rau is involved, he's like, oh, I know, I think I know that guy.

So he thinks that he has a way in to negotiate, even though ultimately it doesn't work out.

I think it was interesting to see Harah fail so miserably.

That's that's an unusual thing to see.

But it also gave way to allow Canaan and Sabine to work together in a way that I thought was really wonderful to see as well.

And I loved when he pulled out his lightsaber.

I mean he went all in.

You know that that was really special for me, Sabin, you murdered it.

I mean, Tia, I thank you, but I just I loved I loved watching her just how much that character has grown to this point.

It also reminded me of the Trials of the Dark Saber a little bit, kind of a just sort of a precursor of what's to come a little bit watching the two of you guys really communicate, well, you had such funny banter as well, in the middle of complete high stakes drama.

But was that always the plan to have Canaan and Sabine kind of we haven't really seen them work together, not like this ever, I don't think, I mean the group has worked together.

But this was really cool.

I think we found that there's a natural point of conflict about philosophy where Kanaan is also using this whole thing as like a teaching moment for her, which is, you don't always have to lead with your blaster, right, you can put your sword on a table and talk.

And that's really like a big part of this.

And mainly he's saying that because he doesn't want her to get killed.

You know, he's worried about her, and he knows like, okay, you can only be around explosions and like blaster willy Man learns for so long before you take a shot.

Right, So he's seen her get in danger, and you know, obviously he knew that she was going to be trouble, which is why he didn't invite her along.

And so she was, yeah, she was.

I love that moment where he you know, he's talking to fen Row and he takes his flock, you know, he takes his lightsaber off and disassembles it and like puts it back on his belt.

I was like, that's so I don't know.

I mean, it's it's smooth, but it's also meaningful.

And then meanwhile she's outside invoking the code.

Foiled exactly.

He's like, we're not fighting, and she's like, oh yeah, we're fighting.

Yeah, oh, I'm we're fighting to the death.

Actually yeah.

I also, I was about to call you Harah Vanessa.

I didn't.

I think it's interesting that you said Harrah failed because I didn't remotely view it as that.

I mean, I guess I guess on paper that's true, but I didn't think of it as failing.

I mean, she's just usual for her.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I guess I've never seen her.

First of all, I have to say I do not remember seeing this episode ever, because how could you forget Harrah the head bandage like cou comeing out.

I was like, oh god, you know, like, oh, bro, that's not a look, and like I don't even know like her eyeliner was off or I don't know her it was she I said, like like she had like little peach cutouts for eyelids or something.

I was like, Oh my god, what is what is happening?

So it wasn't a complete failure, but as far as her perfectionism and saving lives and and her diligence in terms of planning, I think it was shocking to her to see that you cannot out love the Mandalorians, like you can't like bring them to the light side.

You know that that conflict.

I mean what there was one line, uh that you said, this Jedi stuff doesn't work for everyone, and he said, uh, that's why we're here.

That's why we're war, right, why we're at war.

I mean, that's what I'm saying is you can't sort of force feed people the flowers, rainbows and unicorns, like not everyone's into this, and you know, you invoke the code.

So I think it's in your blood as well, a bit or sabines but but I but as far as yeah, definitely the head bandage.

I don't know how I'm this episode was the thing.

Also, I remember recording this and I'm curious how the Fennrau casting thing came about because I didn't realize it was the dude from train Spotting, Tommy from Trainspotting who dies and I did not put this together.

Mckid Oh, yeah, we cast him because of Rome.

We love the Rome.

Actually, that's why we cast Ray Stevenson.

Okay, As like as big.

I wondered, I wondered how that all came about.

I'm of course a massive Train Spotting fan, so and I'm thinking, like, oh my god, it's Obi Wan, you know.

Obi Wan with his old friend.

Yeah, yeah, he's so cool.

Fenn Row is so cool.

And also Kevin mckitt is so cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, there was lots of swooning in the rehearding booth.

If I remember when.

He made me.

I was trying to remember as I was watching this episode, I was like, what did they keep giving me.

Like so much for what was that?

But I think it was that that you all thought that.

I was like, what, Yeah, no, I would.

I think he's cool.

I don't you know.

I hate to say this.

I you know, I've never seen any of Freddy's movies.

So when he walked in the room, I was like, hey, how are you.

I had no idea.

I mean, I know, of course I know who he is, but not like other people like oh my god.

You know, I didn't have that reaction with this dude.

I never seen Gray's Anatomy.

I never got into it, and never saw Rome.

So he was just a kind, lovely gentleman, you know, hello, Like, no idea until you know, I realized last night that's the dude from Trainspotting.

I would have had a stroke.

I told him in the recording.

I was like, dude, I love train Spotting.

I missed all of it.

I thought you were talking to him just because he's.

From Scotland, like, oh, I love Trainspotting, so do I.

You know, watch.

Because Spotting takes place over there, So like, hey, I love Trainspotting.

Like I hear your accent.

You was like, hey, I've seen a Scottish movie.

It's called train Spotting.

I loved it.

Oh, boy, the standards are pretty low.

I can jump.

That's only because I know, and I.

Didn't mean that you were like, you know, diminishing him to his accent or trying to bond with him solely over that matter.

But I just you know, you meet someone from uh whatever.

Anyway, I just didn't put it together.

So last night was a revelation from I want to say, rewatching it, try watching it for the first time.

So it was incredible.

It's been a fun show.

You know what, you guys, you guys should just go ahead and call each other by characters names, because you guys.

Are the characters.

I'm just to add to add one thing, Vanessa Haral.

Really it isn't a complete failure Haarah when in with Actually she probably didn't get the intelligence she thought like she should have got, which is she knows the Mandalorians they don't like taken orders from anybody, right, So the idea of hey, stand with us against the Empire because you you have to hate these guys.

They like destroyed your homeworld so bombed it to nothing, right, So the idea of her going in there, it wasn't like completely foolish and like you know, a pipe train it was kind of like, you know what, these guys will probably join us, but what you hadn't counted on, they'd have been paid off.

So they basically went, oh, we're completely mercenaries.

We have nothing to fight for.

Our world was gone, so we'll just take the money.

Let's just say this.

The look on her face when her ship has been shot to bits, it's like we've never seen harr go.

Oh you know, those of you listening, I'm making like you know that the face she makes when her plane blows up, Hara doesn't ever look like that.

So I don't know what face represents.

But it doesn't represent success.

Right, well, it is a reminder that she's not infallible, which we I forget because she's so competent and in charge and in control the time, and she always knows what to do and when to do it and how to do it.

And then all of a sudden, you know, we're faced with like her mortality, which we haven't really been thus far.

Yeah, but I don't I don't think it's failure.

I think for her standards are so high that she feels terrible in that moment that not only were lives lost and ships went down, but now she is also you know, floating in space going.

You know, she was beaten, and you're right, it is a matter of her not counting on the fact that they had already been paid off.

So, by the way, d another great imperial character.

Good job always they said barely alive though I didn't realize it was so dire when they're like, Hair's barely alive and she's in the infirmary.

Sense that what was that machine?

What was the ship that was spinning?

What is that called the one that was coming at her spinning?

Oh, it's one of those Mandalorian There was one of those Mandalorian fighters.

Okay, and that's there like normal ship.

Yeah, yeah, you saw those.

Yeah, there are a variation on the ones that were in the Clone wars.

Okay, you know that have those big kind of blade things that come out and then they turn when they land.

I'm talking about Taylor knows, because Taylor is our resident.

Uh yeah, since we last spoke, my PhD in Oh my gosh, I will have you know that fen Row was named after brad Row.

Is that not right?

That's correct.

The markings on Feneral's helmets where I think early Joe Johnston designs for probably Bubba Fight or something that wow, oh who needs.

ID I did not realize.

Yes, I just screenshot this and I could say that every episode.

Henry On and whatever, this new version of Taylor.

Is great to you.

Yeah, we can give JC the day off, like what you know, like you take a little vac real quick, Jc.

I'd like to also give a shout out to the moment where Sabine stands up and says, I'm a house wren.

Uh.

I heard the word visla.

I was like, yeah, that's watching the whole night.

I just, oh my gosh, that that moment was was chef's kiss and on.

That Henry and I really appreciate you, Like this was uncovering one.

We're seeing more Sabine's backstory ever since the Cats episode.

We're like, okay, let's get a little bit more of what she's all about, because up at this point it's been pretty spare sparse in terms of who she is.

But what I really appreciated on this rewatch, you know, as someone a person of color and understanding how you would think a community of color is all united, but there can be these you know, divisions within it, and you show that with the diaspora of like the Mandalorians, that that's not like, oh, you think she's Mandalorian, then they're all cool, but they're not even though they're all Mandalorian.

I'd love you to touch on that, because he didn't beat us over the head with it, but it showed very clearly that oh, like even if so being at home to Mandelor, it's not going to be welcome with open ours because there is that sort of division.

I'd love for you to touch on this.

Yeah, I think when you're developing something like this, and.

It's really easy to get complicated with the politics really fast, and that's something we didn't really want to do.

And definitely in making a show like Rebels, we're kind of like lightly skimming in it.

It was more about like who the person is an individual, and kind of like you were saying, you know, even though we're from the same country, we're not the same people.

And the fact that Sabine would never actually join the Empire.

And even at the end of this episode, you know, Kevin fen Rau basically he's he's a prisoner, but as we'll see in the future episodes, he kind of comes around like Sabine's passion to fight the Empire awakens something in him, like he starts to kind of surrender like his mercenario ways and becomes oh, you know, a nationalist again, Like he's like, oh, this is the person I am.

So I think.

I think when you have a fight for freedom, like people of all creeds and all colors and all clans come together to actually bond together to fight oppression.

And that's really what we're always trying to communicate in our stories is yeah, you have a you know, this family, very different individuals, but together they you know, they're rebels.

So the Man, the Lorens, we tried to do the same thing.

They tend to be definitely war I want to say, clan based, family tribes.

So as a lot of tribal societies, there's always.

Going to be in fighting.

So yeah, I mean, as you saw on the Clone Wars and the death Watch and everything else, for me personally, it was more about how we can bring out the beliefs of the individual rather than who they identify with.

If that makes sense.

So cool, that's cool.

You mentioned Deathwatch.

I was curious and I was going to say this is I'd ordinarily say this is a question for JC, but I don't think you probably got God, I might not know.

It's my pardon my ignorance.

But is death Watch?

Did we, meaning we the viewers learn of Deathwatch in Clone Wars or is there death Is there mention of Deathwatch in other Star Wars.

I think primarily it's the Clone Wars.

You know, Jayzon obviously correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it's a weird thing where you might have had member a mention of it and novels or comic books previously.

But really the death Watch was an extremist faction of the Mandalorians, who were definitely more more centric when Duchess a team and that side of the Mandlrens, they were trying to be pacifist, like they realized like, oh, yeah, we just keep destroying ourselves before we have to stop.

Or the death Watch is like, yeah, but that's who we are.

We fight.

So I think you always have that sort of extremism and cultures, which is kind of happening right now right like, because you know, societies like that tend to template tear themselves apart.

And I think, if anything, we've always tried to show like, oh this is what happened.

When you know, human nature becomes extreme, either one side or the other, it's usually going to be bad, a little too.

Prescient, Henry, what's going on at the moment?

All right?

Correct me?

If Jason?

What as far as the death watch, what were the previous death watch with Clone Wars creating Clone Wars?

Right, We'll believe when we get to the fact check portion, that's going to be those fun things.

We always have to earn it.

I know we always a lot of times were like, let's just govinman now.

I'm like, no, well, we'll earn it at the end.

But it's I'm really excited for today's fact check because, like you are like a fact check yourself, Henry, So to see these uh, it's like an Avengers Assemble sort of thing with a Star Wars fact check.

But I look forward to the finding out too, because I'm not entirely sure I I uh, something.

That you said, Vanessa, I'm sure this how I mean, I think this probably happens to you both Vanessa and Taylor.

You know, it's been so long since we've watched these episodes, or haven't watched the episodes and not watching them for the first time.

You know, in the last what ten years or more, I've been signing certain quotes that people, you know, really resonated with people, and there's there's a there's a handful that are like the heavy hitters that people really responded to or really like, and one of them is I'm clan reun House Visla And I had forgot so many of these quotes.

I've forgotten which episodes, what happened when did I say that?

So in rewatching these episodes, when I when I when I said one of these, I'm like, oh, that's where that's real if I didn't say it in the first place.

But so yeah, when when she jumps up on there, I'm like, oh, right, she's about to say it.

So it's always kind of like a little treat for me to get to see when when Sabine actually says one of these things that I've been like signing on you know, pop funko pop boxes for for years and years.

Yeah, I think that's so she's so bad ass, and I mean she's always bad ass, but she's so awesome in this episode.

And I love how.

You know, pissed off she gets because it just goes to show like how important her found family is to her.

And we know this, but when faced with something like you know, Harrah being gravely injured or worse, you know, she's she's about to like burn it all to the ground, and she would do that for any one of you know, the Ghost crew members.

And I just I love her passion obviously, and then I also love that we get to see her like in action, you know, setting charges, doing what she does best.

And yes, her methods methodology is obviously different than in Canaan's, but I just love to see her doing what she does and doing it so elegantly even though she's about to blow some shit up.

Yeah.

We had a joke I think where Canaan mentioned like, I guess you left the pain at home, and she's like, and she's like what she has exploded?

She's like, oh no, I brought pain.

Yeah, Like, yeah, I'm gonna blow these them up ers up.

So yeah, when she says at the end, you know, my family taught me well, and she looks over at Canaan, she means her chosen family.

Correct, Absolutely, Yeah, that.

Was really she said.

I guess I'd just been raised right, And that really got me.

Henry as a testament to you guys, your your writing skills.

I guess that sounds silly, but you guys sprinkle these like poignant, meaningful moments or lines, but like throughout, but they're they're just they're just right, Like they're never like overly sentimental or melodramatic.

It's just you know, she says, I guess I would just raise right, and then shoots Kanaan a look, and it's so it's just it's just so tastefully done, which I think lands all the more.

You know, it's more meaningful that way.

And we talk about it all the time when there's like a moment that could have been so heavy handed, but it wasn't.

It was just right.

Yeah, that's a lot of like going back and forth over in the atomatic stage.

But we also, you know, like what she's saying there is thank you, right, Like she's basically saying thank you kan because you probably saved my life.

Right.

But also we put those in because this is my personal philosophy in Star Wars.

When I write a story, there's always some pro social aspect that goes like underneath the plot.

And you know, like we haven't talked about the kind of stories we tell, like there's like the mystical stories, which are the kind of Jedi sid stories, and then you have war stories which are sort of like the po'hara rebel stories.

So we but underneath it all is always something that we want to say about the family unit, but also something that's pro social, which is you know what you don't always like Sabine could have killed him, Yeah, on the fast draw, she could have shot him in the face.

I think I actually pitched that, which is like you killed Harah and I just shot you in the face.

And now it's like, oh, he she won by trial combat, but then that would have taken a story a completely different thing.

But it's like, no, she disarmed him because she's already learning from Kanan, because Kana basically said made her promise, don't shoot people, don't kill him, even though the next seed is they're on the run and the Men of Orange are trying to kill him.

So she's already she's already.

Like doing as he's as she's already learned from him.

And by the end of the episode we come see it come full circle, which is like, oh, yeah, you guys are you know, you're great?

You guys are great Space Mom and Space Dad.

So yeah, that whole thing.

Oh go ahead, no, no, go ahead, you go.

I was just going to say, like that whole thing when Kanan makes it being promised not to kill them when they remind me a Terminator two, when John Connor makes as I swear to kill anyone like that's basically wealthy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, I.

Was going to say that when earlier in the episode, when when Kane says, hey, I trust you.

I thought that was really like just a.

Small but really important moment, just especially considering, like sabines earlier concerns or feelings of you know, I don't know about inadequacy, but just just feeling concerned about not being trusted by the crew, especially Space Mom and Space Dds, specifically Space Mom and so in that, you know, in that moment when he said, you know, when there things are happening and he just takes a quick moment to say, hey, I trust you, I just thought was also another lovely, quick little moment where it's not too much, but I think that was probably be really meaningful for her.

Then of course she goes on to do what she did.

Well, it's also he's reminding of her a promise kill anybody.

Now it's a little bit of fat.

That's kind of parenting where it's like, yeah, not okay, interesting hmm, I'm I'm talking.

And she and she keeps her word, you know what I mean.

As much as she wants to kill these guys because she's still mad, right, she would have she would have murdered them all because of what they did to Harrah.

And and I think that's that kind of like interesting thing because that's how she was raised.

You know, she's fighting fire with fire.

That's what they did.

She's going to come in and serve it up right.

Back to him.

So it's like in her DNA almost absolutely what they do.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I had a question for you, Henry in terms of, like when you're putting the right together and think and remember when I dumd you a week ago, you told me about you just touched on the two layer process of you got to make sure this is here and this is all.

You also had the message underneath it.

But in terms of the visuals, do you write it with visuals in mind?

Because what's that standoff between Sabine and Fenrau that's really in the roots of Star Wars being a space western adapted from Cudasala and like that straight up spaghetti western.

Did you write it with that visual in mind?

Like they have a standoff like good Ben the Ugly or is that something that comes up just after the script's done You're like, oh, yeah, let's make it like this.

I'm just I've never really seen an animated script in its entirety, like live actually once looked like so I was just curious about that.

Yeah, and I could definitely send you that script.

And absolutely, it's the western.

You know, that's something that we like even you know, discussed in the story, which is, oh yeah, this is the you know, this is a gunslinger.

And even the whole scene where you know, Canaan walks and sidles up to the bar, you know, and puts his lightsaber on the bar.

You know, that whole scene is right out of like high Noon.

Absolutely, So it's it's yeah, I mean, you know, if you kind of think about it, that's kind of like the recipe that George you know, created when he created Star Wars, which is like all of his favorite cinema put together, right, It's like, okay, shirt's based on the space serials of the thirties, but then it's got the Kurusawa Samurai movies of the fifty sixties, and then it's got like the you know, the john Ford westerns of the fifties and the sixties, the war movies of the sixties too, So all of that recipe goes into making Star Wars.

Like calling upon those same influences he used makes it feel like Star Wars, you know, and Rebels I think to me feels the most like Star Wars because when we and this you might may or may not have talked about this before, but even the way it's shot, it's used the same lenses that George used when he made the original trilogy.

Wow, so using and that not extra other lenses, just the same ones that George used.

So when you're watching it, you don't realize that all of these things combine work together.

You know.

It's kind of like the whole idea of digital versus analog, Like this is still like an analog world the Star Wars taking place in.

So there's a lot of thought and so much professionalism and genius, you know, animators and our board guys.

Yeah, they probably looked at I knew, you know, to make sure we got that whole scene feeling right.

I think it went on longer, but you know, we have twenty two minutes.

You know, you can only get away with so much, or at least the Gilroy Cutt would.

Henry, would you have an idea of how many people worked on I mean an estimate on one episode of Rebels?

I know, like obviously there's people across the entire season, right, and everyone's given different assignments, but like on an episode of Rebels, how many people would.

Be in on that?

From over one hundred over one hundred's.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that besides who's in the credits, like eighty, there's there's so many people who are are a small part of it, you know, but a very important part, you know what I mean.

So yeah, it's a it's a lot of people teaming up, you know.

You know when you look at like like, oh, who does the explosions.

There's a guy who does the explosions, right, and then oh who does the sound for the explosions?

And then you know all of the comping, you know, the visual comping, visual effects, so there's so much and then just getting the animation right, you know, the small little character stuff, and you guys bring like fifty percent of who the characters are.

I always say like, oh yeah, yeah, you guys could create these characters.

But really, you know, a lot of shows don't have like the level of dedications I think that you guys did to the characters, because like I joke about you guys being the characters, but you kind of are.

So yeah.

And there's a thing too, where like every person you say like roughly one hundred feels like gives the same amount of thought that you give, and that I think we hoped to have given on everything that like we always talked about, John points out so many little details.

He's like, I'm sure that's a reference to this or or inspired by that.

And when you think about it, if someone's just an explosives, they are giving as much thought as you're talking about to this one explosive that.

And they're fans of Star Wars and of what George had watched that of course they're going to be pulling from all this that like, my favorite thing of watching the show has been the like minutia, these tiny details that are just I think John always says it like there are no mistakes really it feels like everyone gave so much thought and it's it's just really cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean we we started that on on Clone Wars.

You know, the very beginning, George was like, oh, you know, I'm doing my George impression and get in trouble.

Guys.

Yeah, I'm retired.

You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna like maybe see you once or twice a year.

You know, I'm done.

You know, you guys make a Star Wars cartoon, okay, And then we were like, yeah, we can't do that.

We have to make something that feels like Star Wars.

So when George saw our first renders, he's like, oh, you guys are making cinema.

So then we went from maybe we'll see him twice a year to two meetings a week because he was excited about it.

And I think that, you know, it was it was kind of fortuitous that to people who really loved it, and I think that's why I was brought back for Rebels.

Was like, oh, right, this is a guy who learned how to make it from George, so he can bring the same thing.

You know.

I think not to bad talk Disney, but I think initially Disney was like, great, we have Star Wars.

You know, have everyone say, I got a bad feeling about this, right, there's a there's a tendency to want to repeat the same thing you've seen again.

Yeah, exactly, Oh my gosh, absolutely so.

But we had already like got that beaten out of us by George.

So it was like, Okay, make it feel like Star Wars with the music and the character, but also do this new stuff.

And I think what's awesome and a testament to your work and everyone who worked on it is the rebels.

They're still pulling from it.

They're still pulling from it.

They're making new shows, they're making new comics, they're making dough stuff just because.

You know it it.

It kind of avoided some of the the over you know, the eye of sr On or the io picky.

I guess.

That we're really focused on the big budget movies, we could actually go in and make these really true to Star Wars adventures with you guys.

That's awesome.

Well, I think, I mean, this is like the mutual admiration society over here.

But I think a lot, if not most of that is due to the writing and the characters created.

I mean, yes, like we were so lucky to get to be a part of it.

And I don't know how it worked out that we are all so similar to is that art imitating life?

Is it life imitating art that we are or did I guess you could speak to this Henry, like, how much of our personalities really did you?

Guys?

How much did our real life personalities actually inform the characters?

Because I guess I've never actually.

Asked you think to you, is it's coolest to be no?

Obviously, And I'll be the first to admit that, Yeah.

Yeah, you guys are you guys are awesome?

I don't know, can we mark mark that down and like clip that place for posterity sake?

I'm gonna have to send you to your different rooms space mompace.

Mom No, because people, you know, people ask me that.

I'm sure they ask you guys that too, like you know, and I don't.

I often my answer is, oh, I think the writers sort of, like you know, incorporated some of our personality into these characters.

But is that even true?

I mean, I guess you would be the one to.

Ask, absolutely, you guys, I you know, I I I can't put enough stress on what you guys bring because you guys really do co create the characters.

And it's funny because I'll write some dialogue and I don't know, I don't know if this line works, and then we'll get it, get you guys in the room and you'll make it sing or you know, you'll go, oh, can I say it this way instead, and it's like, oh, thank you, Yes, that's what it needed.

So that part of it is absolutely true, you know.

On the other hand, you're right, Like you know, when I was at Lucas moved up to the Bay Area.

I was there six days a week, you know, twelve hours a day, craft in the scripts with the writers, you know, like going over to designs, having discussions with story you know, the visual story folks about how this unfolds, you know what I mean.

So sitting in atomatics.

So we really went over it with a fine tooth comban.

And you know, the the folks that Disney, they realize, oh we had something special.

Like after the first season, I think they're like, oh, this isn't just a kiddie show.

This is Star Wars, you know.

And this is the quote I always use that I get in trouble for, which is I said, my job.

I think it was because they kept I kept getting a note that Ezra needs to write Chopper like a skateboard, and I'm getting mad.

There's even a poster of it.

I'm getting mad.

I'm like, no, it's he's not a skateboard, you know, he's a canter.

And and my quote was, my job is not to protect a Disney brand, is to protect the Star Wars brand, which is they're slightly different, right, They're They're not the same thing.

And I think that they can have crossover, you know, that wholesome entertainment family, you know, but there is there is a different vibe that isn't you know, the Disney brand.

It's the Star Wars brand.

And and I think the way that like the theme parks brought him together, it's awesome, it's fantastic.

People are doing amazing work.

And even now, you know the fact that you can get something like visions, I think is really you know, yeah, it's it's it's downding because it's like, oh yeah, people love this world, but they want to see different flavors of it.

And I think, I really think that you guys were at the forefront of that and creating that behind your lead.

Oh, thanks a very much.

Yeah, you know.

And so after the first season, because I imagine there's some you'd have to do some pushback to Disney.

No, it says they're always is going to be when you're up against a corporate conglomerate who has a corporate mindset.

But were they kind of leaving you alone a little more like in season two after they saw the season one worked, or was there more battles to be had moving forward?

I think when.

The inquisitor chopped off, like decapitated a couple of characters' heads, and we got a note back saying, we don't actually see it, we just hear his lightsaber go on, and I could push his lightsaber forward.

Of the two guys get their heads chopped off, They're like, does inquisitors chop these guys heads off?

Yes, yes, so that's what happened.

It's like their response was like, oh, that was it, you know, all right?

I can't remember the name of those two guys.

They were kind of the bumbling guys in season one.

Like season one definitely is a little I want to say Disney friendlier, just because it was like that's what they wanted.

They wanted, Oh, it can't be as dark as Clone Wars.

And the show got a lot of hate from the Clone War purists initially because they're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they cancel Clone Wars for this or whatever.

We knew where we were going, because it's the same thing as like Clone Wars, Like the early season is, you know, like Ahsoka is a younger person who is kind of being introduced to this world and that part of the story and Ezra kind of being introduced to the world of the Jedi is definitely very something very similar to that.

And yeah, as you get more powerful as a character, you definitely need to have more powerful those and that's when you bring Invader and and the stories are more intense and there's there's loss and no courage all that stuff.

So cool.

I love that And that moment you talk about that that's such a pointy moment for a callous because I was.

I felt like that was the start of him kind of turning and realizing, oh, I might have joined the wrong side that inquisitor thing you're talking about of the decapitation, no.

Not to give the wrong thing, right, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, the the thing that's season one Callous.

Callous' turning point is when he has his space romance Ice Planet with zeb bromance, Let's go, it's it's it's oh my gosh, what's the name of the movie, The Defiant Moonstruck the no kind of but it's it's enemy Mind.

Oh yeah, I love that movie.

It's enemy mine.

I never put that together.

Yeah, he's he's Ware, he's Dowage and he's Jerry.

Oh my, you are absolutely right broken.

I want to I want to make that all of them now, all of these, but you're right, the fire one.

But it's really it's really about like its enemy mind can kill us because.

That could have killed him, right, yeah, Dad could have killed Callous there and and and he didn't because like he had every reason too, this guy like Murderer's Planet like, but also zeb it showed the zeb change, the zeb change because of Canaan like Canaan like the Jedi way like permeated all of the other characters.

And and in that episode that's why, you know, and we can discuss it.

When did you get there?

Also that episode was a bottle episode, which is periodically in the production.

I'd be told like, we don't have any money or time and the art which.

Are getting killed, write a bottle episode and so so we don't we don't have like a new location, so write something, you know, And that's actually the next episode, the call.

That's how that that started off, which was like, oh, let's put him in space and they run out of gas, so they're literally stuck on this on the ship.

But of course as we're.

Making it, days like yeah, but I need a I need I need to you know, caldera, you know, like so, and it was like, you get one creature, and so I named the creature of the pergol which I'm like, oh, they per they per like kittens, but they're kind of fish like, so Pergole, Like this is what you know the name of them anyway, Henry.

Yeah, well, I think from those factorys that's going to be a natural segue to the fact shop before we get there.

One thing, Vanessa, it's funny you touched on how Freddie you never seen Freddy's movies.

You know who else has never seen Freddy's movies?

Freddy and you will be the first to tell you that.

But that's a natural segue to our fact check portion with our guy JC, so j C, I know you got some good stuff for us today.

Yeah, goodness, Okay, I don't between Henry and Taylor.

I'm done wow.

Every week now since Taylor, like you know, out in himself, is like the keeper of the lore g this is bad.

I also apologize.

They're building the death Star right next to my studio, so if it gets really loud, I apologize.

This is something that people have been listening to us for the last fifteen episodes or whatever.

No, but they're building the dust Start next door, and it's loud.

It sounds ominous, so it's kind of cool.

Okay, what do I have today?

You mentioned the Mandalorian white armor, so I have I have fact check, but I also have like fact check question.

Is the white armor a nod to the original Boba Fette armor?

Was that that's a corneous decision?

Oh yeah, the Ralph McCory design.

Yeah, our director Killy Plunkett huge McCrory fan, And that was like one of those like it wasn't even a question.

It was like, oh, we're absolutely doing that.

So cool you guys, I have you on.

Sorry, please continue.

Taylor of course knows this, but fenn Rau.

Brad Rau directed this episode, who then went on and did four other episode or had done four other episodes of Rebels and did bad Batch and kind of took over as Dave ascended beyond animation.

There you guys mentioned the Mandalorian Fighter.

It's a I'm going to butcher the pronunciation, a com kom apostrophe, RK class fighter transport, or simply the Gauntlet Fighter.

Deathwatch.

We did learn the origin of Deathwatch was in Clone Wars episode titled the Mandalor Plot the first appearance, season two, episode twelve.

Now Here's where it's going to get.

This is the last one I have, but this is a big one.

Vanessa.

You mentioned at some point the quote you know, this Jedi philosopher's stuff doesn't work for everyone.

And then at the end there's another quote that says about Sabin who says, I think it's Canaan or somebody says you're sounding more like a Jedi than a Mandalorian to Sabine.

Now here's where it's going to get get a little interesting.

After watching Ahsoka season one, we know that Sabine eventually does train as a Jedi under Ahsoka.

My opinion when I was watching Ahsoka season one is that making a Jedi kind of was the last thing that I would have expected, having watched four seasons of Rebels and seeing her story arc through Rebels, so rewatching and seeing this episode for the first time in a decade, hearing these two lines.

Was it in the plan for Sabine if Rebels had continued on to go down a Jedi path?

Or was that an invention to sell more Lightsabers in the last couple years?

And are you able to answer that?

I'll say that it was absolutely not the plan.

As a matter of fact, we had a discussion in actually season three about whether that and we actually felt that it it.

We really felt not only did it step on ezra story, but it was like a rethread of Okay, we already did.

This, you know what I mean?

So yeah, the idea of some being training as a Jedi when she is already you know, this fantastic warrior of her own type, We felt like, well, this is overkill.

So honestly, I had nothing to do with be Aka series, so I was shocked because pretty much, you know, our entire story team we discussed it in season three.

We thought it was a bad idea.

We kind of did a pros and cons list and we're like, on, yeah, this is just kind of like a week a week rethread.

Why why is the being you know, why would we push that way?

However, what I love about.

The story with a Dark sab is you don't have to be a Jedi to have Jedi ideals and embrace the Jedi philosophy.

And I think that's what's really like the more important thing rather than Okay, now I'm gonna you know, force push Ezra, you know, one hundred feet when I've never used a force.

Before, you know what I mean.

It's that kind of thing.

Wow, I think clip clip it.

If I if I can hazard uh My, as I was watching that show, what I thought was going to happen is just what you said that Ahsoka or that Ahsoka recognized that Sabine was going to need to become a leader, but she was too brash and too headstrong and too quick to fight still, and Ahsoka was able to look forward through the force and see that Sabine needed to undergo Jedi training not to be able to force push Ezra, but to train her mind to think more like haarrah More like a leader, and that Ahsoka could get Sabine to that point because they knew that they would need Sabine to lead forces against Braun.

And then that all disappeared watching that show.

But that was my take on it when I first started to see that, which I thought was very in line with what you guys had done on rebels.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a weird thing in my mind.

You kind of see Sabine already pick up the leadership mantle, you know, she does it when they go, you know, to to Mandalora.

So she comes into her own from being that kind of mercenario.

I'm going to be the mercenary, you know, Mandalorian warrior versus like, oh wait, I'm part of this this bigger fight against oppression, and I can be a leader, not in a on commanding troops, but but but but just by demonstrating you know, the leadership skills, right, which is you know, leading the charge or or you know, inspiring people around her by her courage you know, and her you know, and her.

You know who she is as a person as a strong person.

So yeah, I.

Yeah, I felt that that it that it really kind of diminished her trying to make her a Jedi because she doesn't need it.

She doesn't need to, she doesn't need to use the force.

Right, that's my that's my opinion.

But so it was definitely a shock to me too to see her, you know, suddenly training Henry.

Can you come back?

Yeah, questions next episode, I'm asking you.

I'm asking you a bigger questions.

This is fascinating and also like, it's so I mean, it gives me so much insight that I I suppose I do have I can ask you questions.

I could just you know, text you, but I don't think too But in this setting, I'm like, wait, I have so many more questions, and we will, we won't have enough time.

But anyway, this is so fascinating to hear your perspective on this stuff because I get asked these questions, but I A, I don't know the answer you do, and B like what my opinion is sort of irrelevant, whereas you actually, like you said that you guys had this discussion and decided against it for reasons A, B, and C, which all makes a lot of sense to me.

So it's really enlightening to hear you talk about this.

Yeah, and I I mean, you know, I think, you know, people expect a certain kind of story when you're doing when you're telling a Star Wars story, and I think that probably is what influenced, you know, why you got that story in the Asoka series, which is like, oh, we want to bring this character, but what do we do with them?

And I think that's probably like part of the decision.

But I think there was also and that I can't speak of the truth of this, but when I think about it, I'm going like, oh, everybody.

Is a Jedi, you know what I mean, versus like, I don't.

I feel like when everybody's a Jedi, nobody's a Jedi's That's that's how I feel, which is like, no, like Han Solo never needed to turn on a light staber except when he was going to cut open a ton toon right, Like it's that kind of thing, you know what I mean?

Like in my mind, yeah, I don't.

I don't think.

I don't think you need to have a variety of characters.

I think in the specialness to who they are as individuals is what makes Star Wars amazing to me.

We do a lot of we do a lot of sports analogies on this show, and It's kind of like if every player in the NBA is Michael Jordan, Lebron James, and Kobe Bryant, then nobody's Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James.

You don't have those, you don't There are people who have greater abilities than other people.

And what it means is like, you know, John Paxton or bj Armstrong has to be the best version of John Paxton or Steve Kerr.

They Paxton Jackson.

Sorry, come on, and you're from Chicago.

What has been a long time.

I've had a lot of Star Wars knowledge up here has got to go.

But you know, you have to have all types to get the job done.

You can't just have a team of you know, Patrick Mahomes because Patrick Mahomes can't catch a pass, you know.

Yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

And I I you know, I don't I don't know the constraints or whatever.

But the idea that they wanted to push forward another Lightsaber where like Wheeling character, that there's something to that.

I'm sure you know what I mean.

So I I yeah, I just would have flought at Tooth and Nail Toys, well.

Lightsaber sell, Yeah, and so so did you.

I think when you have like like as diverse or writing team as we had on Rebels, and we had people who are like more comedy people, but then we have people who are like more kind of science fiction people and more fantasy.

Like every time I staff up a room, I like to bring in people at least like everybody around me, somebody who's better at me one thing, you know what I mean, So like I can I can like put all of their talents to use and go, oh, you know what, We're going to do a conspiracy So we're going to use that writer because they're really good at writing that kind of like like cool weird stuff.

And then oh, we're going to do a creature episode.

Oh they love or droids.

They love droids.

So I think, yeah, you cast writers just like you do you know actors.

I love that.

Henry Week, I talked to you all day, and luckily you've agreed to come back for our next episode next which is going to air next week, and where we're going to dive a little deeper into more like off is the Star Wars stuff, but also who you are, because we're interested in knowing a little more of your backstory, and I know our listeners will be interested in that too, and I know our listeners are so excited to get more insights from you.

But like you know, we're just gonna have to.

Like we had to earn jc's fact checks at the end of the episode, our listeners is gonna have to earn the origin story if you will of the great Henry go Roy next week.

So Jac, thanks for the fact check, Thank you Henry for joining us, thank you for agreeing to come back, and we can't wait to dive in more to your backstory.

But until then, Taylor's got the magic words.

Cue the music.

Auto Rebellion is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts Producing, hosted by Vanessa Marshall, TiO Surkar, Taylor Gray, and John Lee Brody Executive producer and in house star Wars guru slash back checker J C.

Reifenberg.

Our music was composed by Mikey Flash.

Our cover art was created by Neil Fraser of Neil Fraser Designs.

Special thanks to Haldy Free and Aaron Kaufman over at iHeart, Evan kras Glory, Willie Morrison, Devor Trasy, Canobio, George Lucas for creating this universe we love so much, and of course all of our amazing listeners.

Follow us on Instagram at Potter Rebellion and email us at Potter Rebellion Podcasts at gmail dot com