Yoda goes your weapons, you won't need them, and Luke like, okay.

Now is Yoda saying only what you take with you?

Meaning like Luke grabbed his lightsaber and he's going into the cave and there's a robot of Darth Vader that Yoda built and put Luke's face in to try to like tease Luke about like this could be your future.

He doesn't mean Luke's physical weapons.

He means his insecurities, his fear.

And then later on Yoda talks about your cave.

Remember your failure at the cave.

Right, The failure at the cave is because Luke doesn't do what Canaan does.

The precedent for what we are seeing in this Jedi Temple is set in Empire strikes back.

Hey, what's up, everybody.

It's Vanessa Marshall, the voice of Harrison Doula from Star Wars Rebels.

Now listening to the Pod of Rebellion today.

I have with me Hi, it's.

Taserkr voice of Sabine Wren, Specter five.

And with us, we also have.

It's up Taylor Gray, Ezra Bridger, Spector six, and we also have everybody.

It's your friendly neighborhood moderator John Ley Brody, and today we are going over season two, episode eighteen, Shroud of Darkness.

But first, as always, it's checking time.

How are you?

I'm going to like my Casey Kasem student.

How is everybody tonight?

All right?

And that includes all of you listeners, as we've all always say at the top of every episode.

And I do appreciate everyone giving their spot the comments on Spotify.

People are checking in and letting us know how they're doing, and please keep that coming because we love hearing from you.

But how are you three?

It's great to see you.

I'm doing great.

I have had a chance to decorate my stream room a little bit more.

I wanted to thank everyone and anyone who's ever given me a gift, because it's currently spread out through my news streaming room.

I had a chance to do that over the holidays and it just really touched my heart.

The number of pieces of artwork.

And I don't know everyone who ever gave me anything.

I still have it, so thank you.

It looks great.

That's amazing.

Well this is only part of it.

I mean, bro it goes on.

I don't want to I can see it looks great.

It's insane.

The pins are like wait, wait, let me not to do Show and Tell.

But no, this is now MTV Cribs reboot.

I have an Ezra or wait no, that's Sabine.

Hold on, here's Ezra.

These are key chains I've got.

I've got zeb and here's Harah that's amazing and Chopper but not Lee's the mulleted Chanaan.

So these I mean, I just like, how do we get so lucky?

I have no idea, Like it just touches my heart.

Kindness just moves me so much.

So thank you.

This is but a small piece of it.

But it's just really uh moving to have such caring kind people in the community and it doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated.

So thank you here here, Yes, So ditto to all of what Vanessa just said.

Although I don't have those key chains, but I was also going through a bunch of I have bins and bins of things because I also don't throw anything away anything that anyone's ever given me.

The amount of friendship bracelets I have accumulated over the years that people have a very kindly given to me over you.

Know, at cons and stuff.

But yeah, I'm trying to get my office in order, and I was like, man, I have so much cool art and like hand drawn art and also like prints that artists have given, you know, gifted me at various cons So yes, what what Vanessa said, Thank you you guys.

I just have to get stuff framed.

Framing gall It's, oh my god, such a daunting process it is.

Yeah, yeah, that's next.

Soon there will be things behind me.

It's all sitting on the floor over there.

You can't see it, all right.

That's so true with framing this, Like there has to be an easier way to do this, in a.

Less prohibitively expensive way.

So extensive.

I have so much art, like not just you know, Star Wars stuff, but like art that i've you know, like accumulated over my travels, and so much of it is just sitting in like storage because I, oh, it's so expensive.

Yeah, some of them, you know, I went to I don't know if I can say, but I went to Michael's Michael Sister, that's a place that you can set Michael's adunl't just if you want to get rid of me, send me there because I'm like, oh, shiny beads you know, it's really hard to focus in there, but they have a million frames and a lot of great deals.

I get nothing from saying I'm not sponsored by Michaels, but they'll give you like three for a certain I don't know.

I just I went in there and I went nuts and got it done.

So I was.

Sponsored by Michaels.

That would be incredible.

I would be so grateful.

Oh my god, I don't us.

I'm the craftiest sponsors.

Please, I'm I'm beyond crafty.

I'm just waiting to let my craftiness craft.

All right.

Anyway, let's make this a personal call out to Michaels, like there's a golden opportunity here to my dear Michaels, to whom I may concern, Well, I am.

Like a frequent flyer or whatever it is, like I have I'm on the rewards system and they see me kind of like, oh dear, and they have they have great cat stuff too, if you're in a cat stuff anyway, moving.

On, so, I mean at this way, you're like an investor.

I mean you're like invested into Michael's.

Wait time out, guys.

Vanessa, for the record, does not have.

A cat unless it was a different Christmas.

No, I'm actually allergic to cats, but I did.

I did have one cat who when I moved into Park Lobrea over near the Grove, I fell asleep on the floor.

All I had was a mattress.

I had just moved from New York, and this cat crawled in the window and I woke up from my nap and she was under my arm.

I was like, what the hell, what are you doing, kid?

And she was like, man, you know, she chose me, and she was like my best friend, and for whatever reason, I was not allergic to her.

Oh and yeah.

Her name was Eliza, and it was like a whole saga.

Her son was Oliver, and the woman who owned both of them was like, clearly, Eliza chose you.

And I was like, oh, well, it might have something to do with the buffet I gave her because I kind of you know me, dude, I gave her tuna, salmon, milk, chicken.

I don't know what she wants.

So anyway, she stayed and Andrew cause she know aka Sagerera.

Obviously he came to know her as well.

He's allergic cats and he was an allergic to her anyway, so Andrew and I end up sending tons of cat memes to each other, so it became a thing.

I don't know, buddy, I don't know.

So I don't have cats.

I'm utterly allergic, and yet cat things crack me up.

I don't say.

Maybe it's because the world is so out of control that stupid cat memes just for the win.

I don't know.

We are thank you for having.

Our own interests and things that we feel.

Special.

Love cats, I mean, come.

On exactly, Taylor, how are you doing over there?

Man?

I am just dandy, enjoy all right, enjoying the sunshine.

Yeah, it's going to be back home.

Good to chat with everyone.

I'm feeling good.

Good travels, good travels.

Yeah, I've been have been gone for quite some time, so it's nice.

Nice to be back, all right.

I love to hear glad everybody's doing well.

So we might as well jump into this episode here though, So just letting you know, my recap is rather quick in this one because there's a lot to unwrap in this episode.

Great episode, by the way, and so here we go.

Here comes the recap for season two episode eighteen, Shrouded Darkness.

The original area date March second, twenty sixteen.

Here we go.

The Ghost Crew once again finds themselves being pursued by the Inquisitive Siblings and pretty much at the point where they have nowhere to run to and norhere to hide.

Like Martha Reeves and the Vandalas in nineteen sixty five, If you Know, You Know, Canaan and Ahsoka as our head to the Jedi Temple on Lathal in search of answers.

What they end up getting are their own spiritual journeys.

Canaan deals with this imposter syndrome via Jedi temple guard it turns out to be the spirit of the Grand Inquisitor, Ahsoka deals with their survivor's guilt, and Azra seek's guidance from Mester Yoda and naturally, the spiritual journeys are interrupted by the Inquisitor siblings, determined to crash the party, but thanks to the Grand Inquisitor spirit running interference, the three of them are able to elude them, and they don't leave the temple empty handed.

Cannan leaves are the better understanding of himself and the title of Jedi Night.

Ahsoka finds hope within the darkness, and Ezra gets info from Yoda.

The episode ends with Lord Vader himself entering the temple, assuring everyone that this is all far from over.

And that is the quick recap of season two, episode eighteen, Shout out.

Of the Darkness, nicely done, nicely done as.

Nice insisting because there's a lot and so initial thoughts, how is everybody feeling about the episode?

Any This is a very light one for you know, Vanessa and Tia.

Because I don't think I'm in it.

Maybe, like I think we see maybe, I don't know if you talk or.

After the episode ended, I was like, wait, I don't think I was in that episode, Vanessa.

Were maybe yeah, I think they returned when they were turn We're on the ship.

Sure, I don't think I don't have any lines.

I don't.

I think you watched them go like that's it, but you don't want Yeah.

Well, so my question was, you know you dive right into the action.

You know they're on the possible plan a bedlam And I was like, wait, whita wait?

I thought we had like bromance with zeb on the last episode, and like I just felt like we leapt into a story and I was like, whoa, wait, where do we leave off, did you guys?

I was trying to remember.

I almost went back to see the end.

I know that they were looking for a place for their base.

I get that that's like an overarching thing that they are going to this planet to check out what it's like, and obviously it doesn't go very well for them when they get there.

But I was trying to remember how the last episode ended, other than zeb returning to his family and Callous being bumped out.

Was there something I missed?

Unclear?

Yeah, no, right, I felt the same way.

I was like, whoa, we didn't we just But I also attributed that to like we've been on a bit of a hiatus and my brain's a little foggy.

With yeah, but yes, I felt the same way.

I was like, oh, here, we are right into this other storyline and did we resolve the other things?

But tbd, I guess I actually know I had all the feels seeing Anakin.

I just hearing him though, too.

I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was that I needed that.

That was lovely.

And then also the sentinel in the Jedi Temple with Canaan was Jason Isaacs and I and I obviously when he takes his mask off, and he says I was a Jedi night too.

I was like, WHOA did I miss that the first time I watched this, Like was that the Inquisitor saying I used to be a Jedi knight?

And I got mad And that's why we might need to call an audible and get JC in here.

Yeah.

I am relieved to hear you asking those questions because I was so confused.

I was so confounded by like it seems.

I was like, oh, he has he's giving me inquisitor vibes.

I was like, oh, who voices.

This temple guard?

And then cut to he pulls the mask off and it is the Grand Inquisitor, but then he's knighting Canaan he choose.

You think he's going to kill him, he doesn't kill him, and instead he unites him and then they.

Go away, and then I thought that they duck.

I have a lot of questions for jac But that's not real, is it?

Like that's that's your your insecurities or fears manifest is how I took it, Like, that's not actually the Inquisitor.

Anyway, But then why does he fight the other Inquisitors?

Because that's what I was trying to figure out.

I was like how one.

I was like, how can they open a Jedi temple?

As like, okay, I don't understand this, but let's play ball then, So I'm telling you, Jase, I got a lot of a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

Then I'm like, okay, there and there.

Now they are exposed to their insecurity, their fear, whatever that may be.

It's the trials of going into it that you now face.

So I thought that that was all.

I thought that was imagined in a sense like isn't he dead?

Well, then doesn't he?

Don't that temple guards kill the seven sister and the brother.

And that's how they die, well, because then they show up again.

Do you there's that scene where they like surround them and they you know, use it.

Thought it was like a test, like like thoroughly confused by like I'm assuming I see this as all like philosophical in a way that like it's not actually there, you know what I mean?

Because dead.

Who is anybody actually really dead in Star Wars, especially one with the Force, And I think they just transition to a different form if anything.

So what I interpreted that is is I guess what they were telling us is that those spiritual manifestations actually can't affect the quote real world, because that's that's the only thing that would make sense to me, is like, Okay, I guess there is a threshold they can cross or something like that could affect what's going on in real time.

Otherwise it's just the mystery that maybe look, when we get there, Jason can unwrap that mystery, or maybe he'll put in a call to George Lucas himself.

Who knows.

But that's how I interpret it.

I was like, oh, I guess that it's not just the manifestation of their imagination, like that can't actually cross over just like you're kind of crossing frequencies or realms.

That's kind of how I viewed it, got it.

That was me trying to make it make sense.

I'm not saying that's correct.

I'm saying that's my way of trying to make it make sense.

But also to your point or well, I don't even know if this is to anyone's point, even my own, But like when you were Taylor, you were saying like, oh, it's philosophical, so these are like things imagined, But like would Canaan imagine being knighted as a Jedi like.

Those are I think.

So that's where I think it's a little bit sloppy.

Oh like no, like logic and I'm falling launched with every movie, every show I'm watching.

There's certain things I've been saying this the whole time watching the show, Like doesn't make sense.

Now I'm the one translating for Chopper.

You notice that I'm telling Ahsoka and Freddy Canaan what Choppers.

I'm like, I didn't even understand Chopper three episodes.

Like sometimes you do.

Sometimes you don't explain where, Like we pick and choose, and that is the beauty of entertainment, cherry pick as you need.

But like.

That that type of thing, I'm like the Jedi nighting, would the inquisitor be the one that knights him?

Would that even be acceptable?

But the whole thing is, once he accepts that he can cannot control the fate of his uh padawan, now he has become whole.

He has reached like that selflessness that allows, in my mind, philosophically, you are worthy of being a Jedi Knight.

I don't in my head, I wasn't like, oh he went through the I don't even know how someone becomes a Jedi night, but I know you must probably be come selfless.

You have to reach It's I look at us like Buddhism, like you have to reach that sort of purity and then no one has to tell you you're now a bodhisatka.

You you you assume it in your actions in a way in my in my head like he has now walked into that path and it's the first time he's accepted.

He's been fighting this fear and this insecurity is like I realize through this manifestation, I cannot control what happens to Ezra.

And it's like the world is saying, you get it now, you are a Jedi knight.

That's how I'm taking it.

Otherwise what but if it's all imagined, then it's his imagination that's conjuring this scene right and too.

And if we're going to use your example of a Bodhisattva, then like that would mean that that person who is trying to achieve enlightenment or you know, attain nirvana, would then imagine a ceremony where he or she is being awarded that you're like being a given that uh or.

Or sort of how should I say, like.

Being off as a yeah, like and now you have the nirvana you did it you and so something doesn't.

It's the sacred slope of Star Wars in my mind.

And also knowing what we know about Canaan, Canaan is.

I mean, he can be cocky, but that's separate, but like he's deeply humble, particularly about his like what he his perceived shortcomings as a you know, as a as a teacher and a Jedi, and like, so for him to then imagine of his own volition and his own accord like, oh, now I'm ready, I've I did it, I've reached that plane where I've achieved that status of now I'm a Jedi.

I don't know.

It just feels weird that that would be him imagining it.

It feels like these are things that are actually like you're not are you a man Yoda?

Or are you actually yeah?

Like like when I'm I mean, we can't go here, but we can't.

Like when I'm talking to God, what is it that I'm doing that is as real as me believing in what I'm talking to and conjuring, and that is as real as I need it to be.

But for the sake of it, I like playing this with myself.

Let me go the complete opposite of my belief and go like, let me believe that it is real.

So the inquisitors back to life.

Okay, fair enough, you can have that.

Then the other two Sentinel guards with him, why if their objective is to kill him, why aren't they killing him?

And then why would they go like when he says the salient point, why would then they be like, you are now a Jedi And that makes less sense than what I'm saying.

You know what I mean.

That's why I'm hold on.

But the thing is if to me, and I'm maybe I'm wrong, But when he put his head down to me, it was as if he said, I cannot control this.

I'm not a good Jedi whatever it is, I can't teach anything.

I thought that Light's say was going to come down and kill him, and it felt to me that he had to be willing to die.

He did not expect them to go like, Okay, now you get to be a Jedi.

I don't think his imagination.

I think he had to go to the edge of his fears and want to die that he didn't.

I don't think it's his It's the last thing he expected that they weren't going to kill him at that point.

I agree, I don't know like that, that's that's sort of like the paradox that if you surrender, then you have the most power.

But to surrender looks like you're saying I'm defeated, I lose, I give up or whatever.

But sometimes they say you surrender to the winning side of things, that that's when you have the most power of all, or that in that moment when he.

Like acquiesces to the idea that you know, he is no longer in control, and that is the moment that like foments like that's the moment where he has achieved his Jedi status.

Anything emotional maturity more than like a rank of Jedi.

Night maybe yeah, like here hearing the three of you talk and what I feel like now, I feel like this episode is like the equivalent like a Rorshack painting.

It's like, because remember philosophy class, there is technically no wrong answer.

It's how you interpret the contribution.

I think maybe that's our past, like that's how we make it makes sense.

It's how whatever we interpret the episode.

I don't think there's a wrong answer.

I remember talking with Dave about this because I remember being like, I really liked this because I was like, oh, this feels like life, like I remember going through the point where and I'll make it relate.

He was like, your biggest fear manifest in the Jedi temples, their trials.

It's the Jedi like you're going through these trials.

And I was like, oh, I understand that, like anything that scares me.

And I still maintain this a bit, especially when I was younger, though I'm running at it.

If it scares me, then I'm going at that thing.

And he was like, that's exactly what this is, and why did Jedi take that path?

They know that is the thing.

And it reminded me.

And then this is like the fandom that you I love, Terry Potter.

You know when there's the mirrors that they look at the mirror and it's the thing that they fear the most they see.

Is that real or is that not real?

I see it as that, like it is as real as it's affecting all of them and changing how they are.

But I don't know and if and if something affects you, even that isn't real.

And anxiety can that in a corporeal way is real, but it's not, you know, like it becomes this whole idea of how how real is something we kind of make it so, you know what I mean, Like I didn't I didn't really take too much of the like what we're seeing as like, Okay, the inquisitors back and these are happening, and it's like what is going through their subconscious in a way, and this is their trials through it?

Well, if it's.

Not happening for real, then even after Freddy, even after Canaan escape, we still see the scene continue and the temple guards surround the seventh Sister and what is brothers and then they you know, you think that they are dead and then they pop up again like and you're like, oh, they're not dead.

So yeah, I think that's what I'm saying.

When you cross the barrier, the threshold, I think it's like taking a psychedelgracy.

I think if Hararah and Sabine and I don't know if Chopper would be unaffected by it, but Or and Zeb as well walked in, like Harrah's father would show up in some way of letting him down, and like is that real?

And like with Sabine the family and old Mandelor.

I think she would be faced with that.

And that's why I think when those the t when the siblings go in, they are they now are faced with what they fear as well.

It's just weird that it's the same thing that we were just facing.

Hmmm.

Interesting.

That's my belief.

I do agree with you, Tia that I don't think Canaan's character would come up with like a whole Broadway production nighting him as a Jedi.

I agree with you that doesn't I can't believe that, But I do believe that he would be willing to die and then learn something he didn't expect that I agree with you or something.

I don't know, but I think your instincts.

Yeah, that because he wouldn't he had such self doubt, you know.

But a shout out to the music in the episode I thought was incredible as always.

How about the cold Breath, Yeah, talking what how do they do that?

I feel like that started in this season.

I don't think that happened in the first season, but there's been a doule times that we've gotten that.

I feel like there was like some kind of a bump in budget for animation now we get cool stuff.

That's what Henry said.

Oh yeah, that's awesome.

So now we get things like oh it's cold, I can see their breath, which is so cool.

So yeah, go ahead, Taylor.

Did you obviously you got to work with like og Vader and Yoda.

Did you interact with Frank Oz or any like?

Did you remember were those things recorded separately?

My memory is so terribly bad.

I know that I did Star Wars Weekends with Frank Ouz, so I them, and I know people that are close to him, so I talked to him a lot there, and so in my head, I'm like, yeah, recorded with him, but I zero quote.

I know James Old Jones wasn't there.

The only time I saw him was once I was living in New York.

He went because he had left one time, right because he was doing that Broadway play.

You saw him at the recording studio.

Yeah, so I'm just get into a car.

But I didn't say like you, I mean, because he was just there.

They like had a separately.

Remember I was was it James Wong there?

Yeah?

Yeah, but that's what I wrote down.

It was funny.

I was like, oh, that's funny that like James old Jones like he was.

I thought he just did Vader at the very beginning of the show.

Remember he had that like cold open thing.

But then it's like him going to lo Thal is why And I guess if my imagination, I was like, oh, now he's going to face this here, but that's what I thought him walking in.

Uh.

But yeah, I don't know.

I thought Frankaster was there.

I could be completely wrong.

Yeah, I want to go side quest really not Psydequiest, but take a bit of a turn here, because let's give a shout out one to sokatanos Ark in this episode, yeah, bridging the gap Attica, but also shout out to Ashley's performance.

Yes, it was like amazing.

So I would love for you, the three of you, to talk about that and just like, what was it like revisiting this and absorbing this and you know, because it felt like a continuation of episode three and this is going to bridge the gap to the season finale of this episode and then World between World and all that stuff.

But I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Well, we wouldn't have been in that recording session with her, I'm.

Sure, Tailor.

I don't need Taylors.

Yeah, but if we if we didn't have enough to do, we wouldn't be there.

If that means, well, no, I just meant you watching it now.

Well, I had, as I've said over and over, I had forgotten about this episode, and so I was almost watching it for the first time, and I had I had more questions, but I don't want to sound like a dumb dumb so I was not going to ask.

But since we're all asking questions, I have some.

I'm embarrassed that I don't know, and listeners, please don't get mad at me, but like embarrass.

So when there's that.

Scene which is so so rad like when he's over her shoulder and he's talking to her and then to Vader and she reacts, I mean that scene is so great, and I mean Ashley's great, Matt's great, like the animation is sick, but like, Okay, my dumb question is did she already know.

That?

I mean, that's a dumb at all.

That's kind of the scene, that's right.

I don't think so.

I think she knows something has shifted, obviously, that he's changed.

But she doesn't know, no, and does she now know when that happens.

I don't.

I don't think.

I think that's the fear.

That's what I'm saying, Like the fear would be okay, clearly there's an idea that this could be like what has happened, but it can't be right, But that's the fear.

Yeah, I agree.

Do you guys think that Jac is like screaming into the voice.

Great fact check?

If I'm all this, we're all like everyone here, I'm I admire how clever everyone is here.

The fact that we're trying to figure out and we were in it and we've still.

Like you know what I mean, Like I think I think there's no I agree, maybe we are just I would love if JAC comes in and it's like, you idiots, this is what happened.

But I think that is part of it a little bit, is that it's not the most clear.

And that's okay.

Yeah, but it's so you're are you saying that like there's I think, well that's helpful, that's helpful, but also like so that moment where you know, Anakin morphs into Vader over her shoulder and then she kind of collapses, you know, with sorrow or whatever.

It's not that she's like learning the truth is that she's are you, Taylor, are you saying she's sort of imagining what could what could be?

Yeah?

Yeah, the biggest fear, her biggest fear would be because the only thing that holds up lodging for me is we all did face something we really feared, you know what I mean?

Like that is uniform with all of us where I think she would be most afraid that that were possible, and then we know at the end of this season when like the mask is like cut in half, Like, yeah, that's no, it's corroborated what I was most afraid of, And how am I going to deal with that?

Yeahs like haven't even seen every Sommar movie, So who am I to answer?

I don't even know if that to help you at this point.

So I think you're fine.

I think just really it's her accepting that that's a possibility, but I don't think it's confirmation because the confirmation comes later.

But I want to talk about that shot you talked about Tia when it's over her shoulder, because this was a very like class This was like a Brian de Palma cinematic shot.

If you've ever seen Carrie, if you ever seen Jaws.

Have you ever seen a Scorsese movie.

They do what's called like a split diopter where they're putting adapter on a lens where two focal planes can be sharp at the same time.

Wow, you have to do it because you like the lenses, Like, can't physically do it.

So what I saw it symbolically, there's two things.

One, it's these two realities coexisting simultaneously.

She's in the present, she hears the voice of Old Master and then sees what the possible present can be, even though they're not in the same place at the same time, Like that possibility is there.

The only other time I saw a shot similar to that was actually in Revenge of the Sith when you see Anakin in the frame see and then Obi Wan behind go Yo Empire d Like I felt like, like we said, there's no accidents when it comes to the Star Wars universe, I felt like full circle like that moment in terms of the framing, but I just felt like that specific choice to frame it like that, it felt like very cinematic, and you don't see that typically an animation or anywhere really in Star Wars.

For that man, I thought.

It was pergnificant.

I thought it was significant also that it was behind her.

Everyone else had stuff in front of them.

This was behind her when Anakin was behind her.

I needed you.

Why did you leave it?

I think it was about her.

Guilt, survivor's guilt.

Yeah, that you left me when I needed you most.

That would have the worst outcome for him to become such an evil being, you know, to me, it was a rear projection of her guilt and then that flash, and you know that it was horrific.

As a Clone Wars fan and even a Star Wars real fan, like that moment for me was foreshadowing what is to come when the mask is cut off and she sees his eye when it is confirmed.

But I thought it was interesting that her issues happened behind her.

Even Yoda showed up behind her and she looked back to see him.

I just thought that was interesting.

She's like, you can't outrun your past sort of thing.

Maybe I don't know.

Yeah, I mean again, the roar shock of it, like, yeah, there's no right answer.

But I do like that moment you talked about when she waves to Yoda like he gets a little way.

It reminded me of Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade when they leave the place where the Holy Grail is and the night just kind of gets a little wave to Indy.

That's sweet.

Yeah, And what about Malikoor like that?

I love that.

Ezra's like, who's Malcore's all?

I said that too, So I'm like, oh, I just thought it's.

Adorable Malcore In other like doll Wars properties like a famous of the way hoff is famous for things.

Mom, we'll have to I think JC can regale us on the intricacies.

Well, look, if there's not anything else you want to discuss, because I feel like we left a lot of questions on the table.

I have one.

I have one, and this is like overarching, big dumb.

Why does Vade, like so Anakin becomes Vader?

Why does Vader have inquisitors and want to kill Jedi?

Like in real life, it's capitalism, right, you can almost always go it's for someone to make money.

Why most evil is done.

It's behind the guise.

If something else we're doing good, that's always not a It's like, how can someone make more money and have more power in.

This is it?

Is?

It as simple as like Lord of the Rings, It's just power get rid of Jedi and have ultimate dominion over everything.

Is that, like that's what the whole thing is, jac Are you ready for.

That?

I mean they could be that or is it?

Remember the Empire is trying to project this image and these optics that they're the good guys.

So maybe like Darth Vader can't really be way out there of hey, I'm hunting these guys down, but I can have these guys go out and maybe they can't trace it back to me.

I'm just talking on my ass right now, so I'm not saying that.

It just kind of came to me of oh, maybe his thing is like, well, I can't have this come back to me because we got to be this image of hey, the Republic's wrong and we're the good ones.

I don't know, but you know whose if.

You're just killing someone though, like you know, if one group is not killing people, another group is killing people, it seems like simple math, like one is not necessarily on the right side.

Right Well, you know, if you look around what's going on.

This is what I'm saying.

This is why I'm asking this though, like literally, because I'm trying to make like it an evident thing, Like when one side is doing a thing and another is doing another thing.

How is that not obvious?

It?

I think really impressive storytelling is when you kind of side with the bad guy a little because you're like, I get it, and that's why it's revenge stories.

You're like, ah, it's a bummer, but this happened to their kid, and that's why it's happening.

And we do understand it a little because we're like, man, that's so tough.

This I have zero understanding of it, you know what I mean?

I even understand it more when someone's like, I want to make money, You're like, well, we've set up a terrible system where that reigns, and that is freedom, and ultimately you can find this thread that gets to like there is a utopia for some people if it.

Goes this way.

I literally don't understand they just want to kill good guys so that they can be bad or like, what do you see what I'm saying, Like you're just power.

You're touching on something really interesting there, because it's really I think it always comes down to who's the one controlling the narrative.

So I mean, but because we're primarily through the lens of the rebels on those So if this the shoe was slipped, I'm sure you could try to through own psychological immune systems try to justify whatever that action is.

So I think maybe that's a testament to that they did their job as storytellers from this certain point of view, if you will, to use a Star Wars term, because the in fact we don't understand that it's okay, well because we're empathizing with the good guys.

I don't know, I mean, but it's a very interesting point you bring up.

I don't have an answer to it.

All I can do is hypothesize with what I may think or feel based on what you said.

Look very interesting, Yeah.

It's super interesting.

But also it kind of like makes you think of, like looking at history, not even so far in the past history, and.

One might say current events.

It's like, wait, you have one side that's committing of atrocities and the other side is are the victims?

Clearly?

And yet how in.

History, let's say, did so many people side with the bad guys?

Well, gaslighting propaganda and.

It serves them usually in some weird ways.

Of course, an ultimately it is power and money, but you know they go hand in hand oftentimes.

So I just as you were asking that question, I thought, wow, there's so many real life examples where one is absolutely at a loss to understand.

How can there be so many people that are I guess they ignore, are able.

To somehow ignore the atrocities being committed, or maybe they're unaware.

Which is even so much more dangerous.

Well, I don't know which was worse, but unaware of what's happening because of blinders on propaganda being you know, proliferated and people being victims of that.

And so this happened and you know, repeats itself throughout time memorium, you know.

So anyway, I remember Folony lecturing us about balance in the force and that you know, there are different characters that come along to restore balance, and when the even the Jedi get out of balance, there's a force that comes in to undo that.

That that the pendulum swings back and forth from Jedi to Sith, from Jedi to Sith, and it's sort of it's an ongoing struggle as to who is gonna you know.

And then of course we have the Death Star upcoming, and I'm sure JC can speak to this sort of the where the narratives are heading in terms of them blowing up planets that I mean, what's the endgame?

Why are they just going around and killing people?

They do want to?

Obviously Order sixty six wiped out the Jedi, but I think it's an ongoing struggle for balance that I just remember Feloni saying that there will always be someone to restore balance one way or the other.

But that the like we're watching the reaction to what happened in the Clone Wars or you know, previously, So yeah, I guess there's there's just.

Something point that actually brings me a bit of peace, like hearing that, because I mean, this may sound like a heinous comment, but also like too much goodness can sometimes be bastardized in some way, you know what I mean.

It sounds insane, but like if it goes too far another way, someone will capitalize on that.

And like, you do want a sort of balance, but you don't want anyone to be hurt by anything.

And when it's just so blatantly lopsided, as we know forever, there's never been a point in time that that has not been the case, I think it's just wild and you hope you find yourself on the right side of the seesaw.

Sure right, well said Well said, well, I think it's that time, because so everyone that's been listening, I might be rage babe, but we're about to alleviate that rage.

She's for upsetting anyone that we that we upset with our question.

But if you're still with us, thank you, because you're about or hit.

Us on socials with your theories and correct us.

I don't know.

Oh yeah, absolutely, all right, jac what have we got a lot?

Okay, God, I was screaming on mute.

Yeah, wildly screaming on mute.

It is literally the closest in in all of the records we've ever done of me popping in and unmuting my mic and just joining the conversation.

Kept us from blathering on.

I don't want to break formatt to jump in.

You know what, at this point, gloves are off.

It's going to happen.

Like I'm glad we to push you at that point today, But if it happens, please by all means no, we did push.

Him to that point.

He just really really fun.

Yeah, we'll get there in season three when we hit world between worlds, I'm sure.

So before we get into all of this.

John, you mentioned Indiana Jones of the Last Crusade when he looks back at Yoda, that was the one, or when Ahsoka looks back at Yoda it was it was almost exactly when uh Sean Connery looks back at the.

Night almost shot for shot right, almost exactly.

To the timing, Like it's almost like.

The way he raised his hand up here.

Yeah, yeah, it's almost exactly the same.

That has to be in it's either the biggest coincidence or it's definitely an homage to that.

So one person got one thing right in.

Half Credit Inquisitor was a former Jedi temple guard.

Was one of the Jedi temple guards that when Barris Offi had framed Ahsoka Tano for bombing the Jedi Temple in the Clone Wars, he was one of the Jedi temple guards that escorted her off to prison.

His character, apparently his background is he wanted more knowledge, similar to Anakin and Jocasta Nu who's the Jedi librarian, would not allow him access to it, so he became disillusioned with the Jedi.

That's he then became Grand Inquisitor.

After Okay Okay.

The fact so there's the background on that.

Okay, with those things off the table.

You have to.

Say, I am of the opinion that Taylor was like almost completely right, and I will back it up with evidence from other Star Wars on why I believe that is the case.

Why wouldn't he be right?

So well, you know, I mean, we just put up the last episode where Taylor's joking around about the wamp of being a Yetti.

So, guys, so I believe that when you go into that Jedi temple you are subjected to the will of the Force in a way like it's more concentrated, it's more real.

But the Force as an entity, similar again to God or whatever is not a ghost, is not picking stuff and moving it in the tangible world.

It's affecting the way that you view the tangible world.

So to talk about like Canaan, is it all in Canaan's head in like, is Canaan imagining this Jedi night ceremony like as a wish fulfillment thing?

I don't think so.

I think the Force at large as an entity is influencing the way that he is seeing the world.

So it's not that this is in Canaan's head and this is the way should have been, and it wasn't this way.

I think that God, the Force, this bigger entity is speaking to Canaan directly into his head, and so he Canaan is seeing these things behave in the way that him completing his trials, which is him submitting to this fear and understanding that he cannot control this fear and letting it go is his final tests to become a Jedi Knight.

The evidence that I will use for this if we are going to look at what is canonical and the word canon.

We use the word canon all the time.

That comes from religion, right, what is canon?

To Shannon, that's where that word comes from.

So where is the cannon?

Do you?

Is the canon?

Like episode four, five and six, that's where the rules for Star Wars are set out.

If that's what we're using as a guide, you can look to Luke's training on Dagoba in Empire strikes Back.

Luke's training on Diagoba and Empire strikes back.

Uh, he gets cold and he's like, what's in that cave?

The Yoda says only what you take with you, and Yoda goes your weapons you won't need them and Luke like okay, and he picks up his lightsaber and his gun belt and walks into the cave.

Now is Yoda saying only what you take with you, meaning like Luke grabbed his lightsaber and he's going into the cave, and there's a robot of Darth Vader that Yoda built and put Luke's face in to try to like tease Luke about like this could be your future.

No, Like, Luke goes into that cave and he fights Darth Vader in the cave, Like there's not a burnt out robot corpse of Darth Vader with a face of Luke Skywalker in Dagoba twenty years later.

That's like being taken over by slugs.

That's all in Luke's head.

And when Yoda says only what you take with you, he doesn't mean Luke's physical weapons.

He means his insecurities, his fear, his the things that he is afraid of.

Right, And so he goes into that cave, and that is the dark side of the force that is influencing what Luke perceives is in that cave.

That's a test for Luke, right.

And then later on Yoda talks about your cave.

Remember your failure at the cave.

Right, The failure at the cave is because Luke doesn't do what Canan does.

Luke doesn't let go of his fear.

Luke ignites his lightsaber and chops Vader's head off.

And I'm not one hundred percent sure, but I'm pretty sure Luke ignites his lightsaber before Darth Vader does.

Luke isn't reactionary to what's happening and what he's being tempted by.

He is the aggressor in that, which is a dark side trait, and so the precedent for what we are seeing in this Jedi temple is set in Empire strikes back through that that Luke Jedi test, Jedi trial, Jedi trials, I do not think from my knowledge, and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think they're like uh, standardized tests.

They're not like the SATs that everybody's that everybody takes the same test.

It always seems kind of ambiguous, right, Like obi Wan passed his test, his Jedi knighting was a result of beating Darth Maul.

Canaan's was different.

Luke's was he had to face his father and become a Jedi.

All of those things are wildly different, but they were all the same.

They're all the same idea, which is facing your fear, surviving that encounter, and coming out on the other side as a more enlightened person.

So I think this is it is like in a way, all in their heads, but it's not.

But it what is in their head is being influenced by the will of the force at large.

Does that make sense totally?

Okay?

Does that make sense to everybody at home?

So all of that being said, where this starts to fall my theories start to fall apart from me is in the next season or season four, wherever you get to that world between worlds and you start there's some like physical things of time travel and physical things moving from one space to another physically, where this starts to fall apart, And to like what Taylor is saying, like the internal logic of the story starts to fall apart.

For me, I prefer to think about it the way that I just described it, and I I have spent far too much time as somebody that is a fan trying to rationalize how the world between worlds doesn't become too fantastical for the rules that I kind of have always observed in Star Wars.

But we will talk about that in a future episode.

When the Inquisitors walk into that space, Tiya, you were talking about, like, well, they all fight and battle and this whole thing, like they are still going to be subjected to because of their force sensitivity, the same concentrated aura or whatever it is that is pushing on our heroes, the villains, fears, the villains, everything will be you know that Jedi Temple Guard was their boss, so their fears and their insecurities and their worries are going to also be brought to the forefront in that situation.

So they got crushed by the Grand Inquisitor in their heads, but then walk out unscathed.

So I guess psychodelic it can be a good or it's you will be faced with your deepest insecurities and you reach like you go into a spiritual place and you're like, I have to overcome this.

And that is scary because while it's not real, it's as real as yeah.

Yeah, you know, like at this point, Yoda exists as a physical being somewhere else.

Typically for years, there's probably been like very little the blips of his force connectivity.

Now you have all of these people who are growing in the Force, who are getting more powerful.

Canaan is the first new Jedi in you know, years.

At this point, you don't think that's going to register in Yoda's head.

It's probably did.

Yoda's last things that he says to Obi Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith are hey, Qui Gon learned how to keep his conscious in this world and exist in both planes.

You've got to train with Qui Gon to be able to do the same thing, Obi Wan.

But Yoda's learning that same trick from Qui Gon on Degoba.

So is Yoda far enough in that training that even though he is physically on Degoba, he can put his conscious into the heads of Ezra and Canaan as they've grown more powerful on the Force.

So he, I think, is taking his image and putting it in the heads of So Yoda's on Diegobat talking physically, but they are seeing him in their heads as he sends that message across time in space to them.

That's the way I interpreted it, and that's the way that at this point at least I rationalize that disconnect with all of it.

I think you guys did a good job.

Does Ahsoka know that Vader's anakin?

I think that discussion closed its own loop.

I thought that Vanessa's observation about everybody seeing something in front of them, but Ahsoka behind I didn't pick up on that, but I loved that.

I thought that's so smart.

That's one of those things that like when somebody else points out, you're like, oh my god, that's so brilliant, and it's so brilliant.

But it didn't need to be like, it's like it just works like subconsciously until you notice it, and then you're like, ah, somebody made that decision.

So smart.

You guys talked about why does Vader want to kill Jedi?

Like what is driving that desire?

The dark Side is fueled by hatred, fear, aggression.

For Vader to become more powerful, he needs to continue to fill that well of anger, fear, and aggression, right, and so for him to continue to grow in power, which you know, the only thing powerful people crave is more power, right, he needs to continue that pursuit.

Also, Jedi are the entity that kept him from learning the knowledge to keep Padme alive.

The reason Padme died, the reason he's become a mechanical cyborg monster.

All of that is a result of the Jedi.

Hey, uh, we're gonna call you Jedi Master, but it's a hollow name.

We're gonna give you this, but we're not going to give you that.

Like the Jedi spoke down to him forever.

He got a vanity producer credit.

Yeah, he got a vanity producer credit.

And as a result of that, he is a monster.

Darth Vader views himself as a monster.

He knows what he is, and he believes again, if you you know, he has a conversation with Luke Skywalker, it is too late for me, son, you know, the Emperor will truly show you the true nature of the force.

He sees himself as a lost cause.

He knows who and what he is, and he is on a collision course with with the end, but he cannot change direction.

Which is why the end of Return of the Jedi is so powerful.

Is his son is able to derail that and make him feel that humanity, that that he that even he didn't think he had anymore.

Touching on the last thing about too much good good guys, bad guys, whatever, you know, if I post the question to you guys, who is and maybe Taylor can't answer because I don't know if he's seen it.

Who's the good guy?

In episodes one, two, and three?

Who are the good guys?

Oh?

What's his name?

In episode four?

Jearje Har But honestly, is is right?

Jar Jar is innocence, He's the pure, He's the purest pure.

Yoda and obi Wan Yoda and obi Wan Jedis are keepers of the peace.

We're not warriors, right, but by episode two they're leading legions of troops into battle, and they're so blinded by their their mission or whatever they never stopped to questions like this is is this what should we should be doing?

Should be generals in a war?

War is against our philosophical beliefs?

You know, do the ends justify the means?

Like there's a case to be made that, Yeah, Darth Sidius is a bad guy.

Darth Vader is a bad guy.

But in a way, Mace Windu is a bad guy.

Like he's going to murder the Supreme Chancellor without trial.

He's going to be judge, jury, and executioner in that moment, you know, and then Anakin steps stands for him, stands up for what is right.

Anakin's not standing up for Palpatine in that moment.

Anakin is standing up for the Jedi code, and the head of the Jedi is saying, like, Jedi code doesn't matter in this situation, you know, and so I mean.

And in episode two, Dark turanis Christopher Lee.

Count Douku is saying to Obi Wan, the republic is corrupt.

The separatists are actually the good guys.

And if you fast forward beyond Star Wars rebels, the separatists end up being the rebellion, right, Like who's the good guy?

Like you can say Bayl Organa is a good guy.

You can say Ahsoka Tano is a good guy, and you can say Ahsoka Tano stays a good guy because she leaves the Jedi order.

You could say Padme is a good guy.

But even Anakin is, Like you sound like a separatist.

You know.

Separatists are bad?

Well are you know?

Are protesters who are protesting a government that's going against what the government charter is bad?

Like the lines of the in the prequels of who is good and who is bad are very blurret And I know everybody loves a good sports analogy here, But like, I worked for Major League Baseball for a very long time and people say to me all the time, Oh, who's your team?

Who do you root for?

And I was like, I don't and it sounds terrible.

I'm like, I don't really like rooting for teams.

Like, what do you mean you don't like rooting for teams?

I was like, well, a team is a corporation.

A team is like no different than rooting for Walmart against Target against you know, Amazon, You're rooting for this corporate personhood of a thing that's jersey colors.

It's maybe representative of the place that you're from, but really the thing that's representative of the place that you're from is the ideals of the people who are executing on the field.

And so to become a professional athlete, the level of commitment, the level of dedication that it takes.

You know, there are fewer professional baseball players in the one hundred plus year history of baseball, like they would all fit in Wrigley Field and still have ten thousand seats.

So it's such an elitist thing to become that.

You it's very hard to be that dedicated as a baseball player and then not cross the foul line, get onto the field and turn it on and off, and not be that ultra competitive.

So when people ask me like who do you root for?

I was like, I root for players who exhibit traits that I admire, who play the game in a way that I admire.

Similarly, in this era of Star Wars, who do you root for?

This s Epartus, the Jedi, the Sith.

They're all misguided, they're all wrong.

So who do I wrote for?

Jar Jar?

Who do I wrote for?

Mail or Ghana?

Who do I root for?

Amidala?

Right?

The people who who kind of sit in the middle, who see each side as what it is?

They're all right, They're all wrong.

They're all completely fallible.

And in the quest to balance the Force, like Vanessa mentioned, Dave used to talk about with her, is you know, Anakin ultimately balances the force by removing the Jedi and the Sith.

He wipes them both out because when he dies and he kills the Emperor, the Sith are gone and Luke is the only Jedi left.

But Luke was never trained in the Jedi temple.

Luke was never subjected to the hubris of the jed Edi and so he gets to start from zero.

But as you're asked that to Yoda, he's like, how can we be the good guys?

If I fight?

If I fight, like, he doesn't fighting make me that guy?

And I think that's like the childish wonder of like coming into the world.

I think all of us, as we were younger and we start learning what the world is, We're like, this doesn't the same right either way, Like how how are we supposed to find our way?

And that's the forever question.

There's no right answer.

It's like, you know, like when you read Machiavelli's The Prince, he says, get your hands dirty, And I remember in college I wrote a paper about that and how Gandhi had Machiavellian sort of tendencies.

Maybe he wasn't violent, but him going on hunger strikes maybe isn't the ideal thing for someone to do.

So that's not great for his body, but it was still kind of a peaceful protest sort of thing.

So you're to pig like what you're saying, Jac, it's like this book by keep paying good, reasonable people, he talks about ideologies get wrapped up in joining like a social club sometimes, and I think that's what you're kind of touching on with like but their separatists, Like yeah, but have you actually looked at what their policies are?

Like what are you actually believing in?

And very interesting, Like I feel like that's a whole bonus episode because we could probably talk quite at length about all the complete complications of that and intricacies of that.

It's why people don't like the Prequels, because you spent twenty five years where good guys were white, bad guys were black, and that was the genius of the Prequels is George was like, Hey, I gave you six hours of clearcut, good and bad.

Now I'm going to give you six hours where you have to figure it out for yourself.

It's ambiguous, it's not there, and I don't think people were ready to accept that in nineteen ninety nine in the same way that they're looking at it now.

And it's like, oh, oh, okay, I see you know.

His last line, Vader's last line when he says it will be their undoing.

The guy says that the Jedi are getting stronger, and he says it'll be their undoing.

Is that because when one side gets too powerful, you can count on it going back the other way, that they will be undone by their thirst for power or to fight.

I think it means a couple I think it could be interpreted a couple of ways.

As Ezra and Canaan get more powerful in the force, it's harder to hide, it's harder to go.

It's their profile in the galaxy and the force they stick out.

Bader can sense them easier.

As their power grows, they have a bigger blip on the force radar that those guys have.

I think the other reason is g is as Ezra and Canaan become more enlightened, it is harder for them to stand by and allow innocent people to be hurt and allow the Empire to to commit atrocities, and so their call to action becomes stronger, and it is easier to manipulate them by inflicting harm on innocent people and draw them out than it would have been if they were not as strong in the force, and if they could not feel those atrocities as deeply.

Because that's what happened to him essentially.

Okay, wow, all right, do we pass the class now?

So intense man and how applicable it is to present day.

It's just really very disturbing.

I mean, guys, oh go ahead, oh no you please?

No, no, no, go ahead, no no.

I was going to take it in a different direction.

Oh in that case, before you do that, I was just going to say, I know, you do a lot of things.

You have a lot of projects, you're a small business owner, you do all this other stuff.

Have you considered teaching a college course on this stuff?

Because like I would take it.

Being serious like a Ted talk, I would like you should teach a course.

The university would do that too.

Oh yeah, I.

Feel like there's there's Star Wars star Wars in the classrooms to be and you know, forget about like film studies, but like Star Wars, like applications to other things.

There's courses based around Jordan Peele movies right now after getting came out.

So there's complete validity in what you're saying.

Yeah, there's Star Wars classroom.

Do you know the Star Wars in the classroom?

Folks?

They like in all sorts of Shakespeare plays too, and they it's it's like there's a group of teachers who do this and they're all pretty credible.

I think it's smart, right, It's more accessible for people than you know, trying to get through the language of Shakespeare, right, especially.

At like.

Ten And if the goal is actually to have young adults gain knowledge, I think if this is an easier path to the intro of that, if this was discussed first and then you give them Shakespeare, which is the root of where a lot of this stuff comes from, it maybe it makes more sense than challenging people with like fourteenth century language to try to get the same points.

It makes you think if there was like a Patreon where.

I think hang out in terms of teaching a class, like, I think I'm very good at responding in real time to it.

I think if I had to sit down and drop a.

Lesson plan that you never know, body my.

Add would challenge me on that pretty heavily.

I don't know.

I think you would crush it.

But that's just I'm just planting the seed.

So we'll put two things on one.

Michaels needs to give a like a sponsorship indoors with Vanessa and then also universities out there.

Yeah, you know, any opening professor positions, you know, JC, I'm not going to see you're available, but I feel like you're open, like an interview, maybe minus a professor.

Why not just add it to the list of.

Them and I will tell you you do it if you have time for that.

There is an opening at Chapman University because a friend of like, someone I'm friendly with just like, had their last lecture there two weeks ago.

So I don't know, there's a possibility.

I was going to say earlier, there's a chance.

Tell you guys.

Next week we also have a very heady episode about a droid that steals a leg.

Very heady, very heady.

Yeah.

If this hour was a lot for you, just wait until next week where we talk about how does as Than understand Chopper so well?

And why is Chopper care so much about the color of it?

Yeah, this week we got Jac's Ted Talk.

Next week is one hour comedy special that'll be here before it drops on Netflix.

Basically is what you're saying, thanks.

For speaking with us to everyone who is still listening.

I appreciate it, y, I think, well, JAYC, thank you as always, and I'm glad that you haven't expelled us yet from Rebel's University, at least not yet.

You know, there's still time.

Time, There's still time, and we can you know, I don't know, I don't know where I'm going with that.

Anyways, We will see you all next week as always, and in the meantime, you know makes you check out you guys and Jac's comedy special coming up, and and uh, this episode was not brought to you by Michael's, but it could have been, but until then, Taylor, what we got je music.

Potter Rebellion is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts Producing, hosted by Vanessa Marshall, Tia Sirkar, Taylor Gray, and Johnny Brody Executive producer and in house star wars guru slash factchecker J C.

Reifenberg.

Our music was composed by Mikey Flash.

Our cover art was created by Neil Fraser of Neil Fraser Designs.

Special thanks to Holiday Fran Aaron Kaufman over at iHeart, Evan krasgoor At, William Morris, Endeavor, Tresa Canobio, George Lucas for creating this universe we love so much, and of course all of our amazing listeners.

Follow us on Instagram at Potter Rebellion and email ust at Potter Rebellion Podcasts at gmail dot com.