Hey, Casey, what's going on?

Oh?

Really, not much?

How are you?

I don't know.

I'm a little stressed out right now, but otherwise I'm fine.

Well I'm a little stressed out too, because you know how we've been receiving all these coded messages to our dear movies I love you email.

I mean I saw I sort of peek in there from time to time, and then I would open up certain emails and they just had a bunch of gobbledygook, so I just shut them and move on.

Yeah, we were We've been receiving you know, pages upon pages of coded cipher messages, you know, and we were like, wait, what does this mean?

And there's been like threatening letters attached saying like you have to read this code on on the air on your podcast, and we haven't.

You know.

Wow, I actually had no idea that was happening.

I just thought it was like somebody tried to send us a fax and it turned out badly.

So you're telling me that we've been getting threatening.

Letters, yes, yes, And you know, I've been working with our legal department to just sort of figure out what the best way to you know, pursue this is because we don't want, you know, we don't want to comply to this, you know, terrorists, threats, you know, if that's the case.

So, but I spent a few weeks.

I worked with some experts.

I took out a bunch of code books from the library, you know, as you do, as you do, and I cracked the code for one of these ciphers.

Wow, okay, so what's going to happen?

What's happening?

Well, yeah, so I haven't actually like, you know, I just decoded it, but I haven't read it, you know, so I don't know the contents, but I just it's been decoded.

So I thought we could, I don't know, go through that together real quick.

Uh yeah, come on, Okay, all right, let's see here.

Okay, here's the first one.

Let me pull this up.

It's all kind of handwritten here, so I'm kind of sorting through a bunch of papers.

Okay, here here's the message.

This is long, so just to hang in there.

Okay, Millie, it's addressing you first.

You are so cool.

I love your film insights and your sense of humor.

Uh got me lowling l ol ing all day.

Okay, So that's that's pretty cool.

Sounds like a positive terrorist if you have.

Yeah, so maybe these are just positive.

So here's the next section.

Casey, I can tell your farts really stink.

They probably smell like gasoline and coal.

Slaw.

Okay, you are so farty.

You probably have farts coming out of your mouth when you talk.

They are so potent that I can actually smell them when I download the podcast.

Wow, they magically permeate through the speakers in my car and into my nostrils.

When you talk and I smell your farts, it makes me Okay, this goes on for like pages.

Wow, dude, so.

Uh and there's no demands.

It's just like talking about your farts that are somehow coming through the speakers.

Yeah, I guess so, or there's some conjecture that I have stinky farts, which is not true.

Yeah, I don't know.

So I don't know, And I think it's like kind of you know, if I'm dissecting this, they say I can tell your farts really stink, but then they say they can smell them, So which is it?

You know, there's just sort of like there's sort of mixed messaging in there.

So, I mean, it's just so odd that I would receive such positive feedback from this weird person who has written us in code and that you are literally just a fart machine.

Yeah, it's hard to know their motivation, frankly.

Very hard.

Yeah.

So well, well, I guess I'll keep decoding these messages in case they ask for something.

I mean, I don't know, have.

You gotten any like phone calls with just people breathing really heavy or anything like that.

Or yeah, I'll get a phone call in the middle of the night and it's kind of like a person like sniffing, sniffing.

Yeah, ah, what a sick bastard.

I know.

So, like I guess to see if they can smell my farts or whatever.

But yeah, it's sick.

I mean, it's sick.

It's sick behavior.

So please don't send any more of these.

Well yeah, sick.

Oh, I mean, I mean, if you want to send me compliments, I'm not going to stop you.

Okay, let's just be real.

But if you're going to talk about Casey's farts and you're gonna be talking about them in really really harrowing detail and then you're gonna call and sniff on the phone, I mean that we can't have that, or.

I would say at the very least.

Please don't send them in a coded message.

Just send them as an email so I don't have to take the hours to decode them, you know what I'm saying.

So sorry about that, Millie.

Sorry, No, I.

Care about you as my co host.

I don't want people talking about your farts, not on my watch, if you know.

Thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Well.

Speaking of coded messages, yeah, we have quite an episode today when she said.

We do, we do, and I can't wait to get into this.

We're talking about Zodiac from two thousand and seven.

I have a lot of I have thoughts about this movie.

God, I do too.

And here's the thing.

I think we were kind of coming up with ideas, you know, for episodes, which we do all the time.

I was like, let's just talk about this movie straight up.

We don't even need to talk about it in any other context other than this movie just being one of my favorite movies.

Yeah.

So it's a big movie.

It's huge.

It is huge.

Also, I don't know if you clocked this or not.

Did you see a bit of Christmas in Zodiac?

I did?

I did.

There's some Christmas scenes.

Well, I have to ask our friend Alanza Dralda.

You know if it can classified as a Christmas movie or not.

But yeah, I did notice that and I loved it.

Listen if they can, if they can make Eyes Watch Shut a Christmas classic, I think they can make Zodiac one too, just saying.

I love that California Christmas.

Look, we also are gonna be talking about gripes and gropes and grats.

Might have to get out the guitar.

The three G's, the three Wise Gees.

The three Wise Geese.

Sure, sure, that'll be fun.

We got some voicemails too, which is great.

We do.

We always love hearing your voice.

I do very good.

Uh but yeah, that's about it.

A huge show.

Well, please stay tuned.

We would love it.

You're listening to Deer movies.

I love you, Dear, and I've got to.

Love me too.

Check the books.

Hey, everybody, you are listening to Dear movies.

I love you.

This is a podcast for those who are in a relationship with movies, and we're not We're not talking about a relationship where you write weird, creepy letters from a distance over the course of many years.

We're talking about people who are actively involved and in a relationship with movies, wouldn't you say?

Yes?

Do people even write love letters anymore?

Millie?

No, not really.

I mean I certainly haven't gotten one.

I think people now probably get love dms.

Ah the love DM.

Do you remember in old movies how they're like they would say, like do you make love?

In the sense that like it's like do you do lovey things?

You know when you know how like the phrase make love used to be more like do you write love letters?

And are you romantic?

Rather than just have sex?

Do you know what I'm talking about?

I don't know the Orchard story of making love okay at all, but I do I do think I've got to say I kind of like it as a phrase.

I wish it would come come back.

Making love.

Yeah, me and my husband made love.

It's like it just feels so I.

Don't know, like yeah very much.

So any who, Anyway, I wanted to tell you that I'm Milly to.

Cherco, I'm Casey O'Brien, and we.

Like we said at the beginning, we're doing a good movie today.

Are a movie that I feel like has been misunderstood over the years.

Perhaps, Yeah, I think it was even a little misunderstood at the time that it came out.

Yeah, but I actually think it is.

To be honest, it's one of those movies now that's gotten a complete it's been there's been a complete upheaval from the original opinion.

I feel like there's so many people that like this movie now more than ever.

I absolutely, I feel like there's a lot of people who say, like, oh, that's, if not my favorite movie, like one of my favorite movies of all time.

Oh man.

I mean, like, if you want to, we're going to talk about the director, David Fincher, of course, but there's many people that think it's this best movie.

Yeah, which is interesting because well, we'll get into it.

I have a lot of thoughts about that, Millie.

I want to know what you have wanted this past week and to know that we must open up the film dire.

Well.

I know this podcast is called Deer Movies.

I love you, But sometimes once in a while.

Anyway, the opposite feeling occurs.

I'm kind of I kind of had this thought when we were talking about Almost Famous the other week, because I was basically like, here's a movie that I don't like that that I recommended apparently.

And I was complicate complicated?

Right?

Is that a counterintuitive thing for this podcast?

I don't know.

We like we have crushes on movies and then sometimes we fucking hate their gifts.

So anyway, it's occurred again this week.

Unfortunately.

So I saw I saw one movie.

I saw it at the movie theater, my infamous movie theater where fireworks go off and the place gets shut down constantly.

I did have drama this time again because it is a theater that has you know, reclining seats, and my fucking seat was broken and I was stuck in this like weird like breach baby position for like half the movie.

And I was so annoyed by oh my god, that would drive me crazy.

Oh my god.

And then of course, you know it's like if your TV screen doesn't work on an airplane.

Oh you know, it's like.

But imagine, like my feet are kind of hanging in the air.

My whole back is pretty much flat, and I'm like, so there's a total stranger sitting next to me, okay.

And you know how in some of these theaters, like the buttons for the the chair and the seat heaters are like right on the handle, like right on the arm rest.

And then it's like next to the other person's armrest.

So imagine me with my fucking legs and air desperately trying to mash buttons so I could get out of this fucked up position, and this guy looking at me like, what the fuck is wrong with this woman?

Now?

Did was it like that?

When you walked up to the seat for the first time?

It was like, no, no, it wouldn't have like willingly sat in a broken chair that was already broken.

It was.

It was fine.

And then what happened was is that I sat down in it, I pressed the little foot, yeah, you know, like the foot reclined, and then for some reason it just stopped like maybe a third of the way up.

And then I was like, well, okay, I don't know.

So my mashed this other button, which made the back of the chair go back, and that's what happened, is the back of the chair went all the way back, and then the feet were kind of just stuck in the air.

This is like a mister bean.

God, it was goddamn awful.

And I was like in the dark, smashing buttons and like my foot has fallen asleep.

I'm like, oh, and I had like popcorn on my fucking chest.

It was awful.

Have you even said what movies?

No, I haven't even said.

This is just a film gripe.

This is a gripe, I guess at the beginning.

But this all happened while I was watching The Running Man from twenty twenty five.

Mmm, so, starring Glenn Powell, directed by Edgar Wright.

Now maybe I should, you know, throw this caveat out there.

I wasn't in an uncomfortable position seating wise, Okay, Do I believe it affected my attitude towards the film?

Perhaps?

However, I really think that if I was sitting properly, I'd probably have the same thoughts.

Sure, which are I don't understand Glenn Powell at all.

I do not know what's happening there.

I know we've talked about him in the past.

Asked, because you actually asked me, like, what are your top three Glenn Powell movies?

And I'm like, I don't even know if I have one.

I've never seen him at anything.

I don't think I don't see twisters.

He's yeah, he's sort of a flavorless actor, and I haven't been totally impressed by him.

I think he's good in a maybe supporting role like in Top Top Gun.

I thought he was pretty good, and I thought he was pretty good in Everybody Wants Some as kind of like a sleazy kind of seventies guy.

Uh.

That's actually the movie that people have mentioned to me as something I should watch in order to form a better opinion about Glenn Powell.

Everybody Wants Some Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think that's sort of the best type of thing he can do.

But I don't know if he can be a leading man.

And he's he's like a revolutionary in this movie.

Okay.

The conceit of this film, right, is that you've got this poor working class, lower working class man living in a kind of dystopian future who has a mixed race child married to a black woman.

They live in what they would call slum or, you know, a very poor part of this techno future town, right, and he is so desperate to buy medicine for his child that he decides to join this game, this reality show game, you know, the original Running Man with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Right, And I'm watching this shit going, Ain't no fucking way this guy is this guy, Ain't no fucking way Okay, number one, I'm like, this guy does not read revolutionary to me at all.

All Right, if you want to talk about revel lutionaries, let me put let me put this in perspective.

Okay, Leonardo DiCaprio with a mixed race child potentially as a revolutionary, I buy that.

Glenn Powell as a revolutionary with a mixed race child, I'm not buying it.

Okay, he does just like read so country club maga codd guy.

You know, Oh my god, that is the exact phrase that I used when I was talking to my friends about it.

I was like, he's so maga coded, and I'm like, and then there were times in the film where you know, his his mission is so singular in the film, which is that he just wants to take care of his family.

He and I'm like, that is an important goal to have in life.

But why coming out of his mouth does it seem very like trad Wyvy, Like, man, I'm sorry, but like, this motherfucker has too many abs.

I'm gonna throw that.

I'm throwing that out there.

There's a section of the film where he's repelling down the side of a building in just a towel Okay, the magic of movies.

Somehow that towel stayed put, which I was like, ain't no way that happened.

But then I'm like, going, this guy, you're telling me, this guy lives in a slum.

You're telling me this guy, like you know, has zero dollars.

I'm like, he could just literally walk on stage at Magic Mike in Las Vegas and have a job.

Like He's not.

No, I'm not buying it.

He's too handsome and he's too absy to be this character.

Isn't it interesting that?

I think that just proves that, like what a good actor Leo is because he like he also comes from like super white looking, privileged looking guy.

He can play that character.

But he was totally believable in one battle after another, and I just don't think Glenn Powell could do that well.

Leo is also at that point in his age and his you know, countenance where he can look like shit, yeah and be like effective and funny and like he It's like Leo could be the character actor of his fucking fantasies now if he wanted to be.

Yeah, Glenn Powell is still the hunk, Like he cannot play someone grimy or I mean, even if he was just like a run of the mill construction worker, you know, pipe fitter guy or whatever his character was, I was just like, I'm not buying it.

Don't flash those abs and tell me that this guy's are revolutionary.

Yeah.

Period.

So anyway, I kind of took me out of the movie a little bit.

I also have other opinions about the movie, which I will keep to myself.

This has already gone on too long, but I maybe I don't want to reveal them.

Sure, for for reasons you don't need to know about.

But I I was like, yeah, I was disappointed, and.

Well, do you like the original Running Man?

I love Arnold, So I mean I think that answers a question.

So it's like that thing where I'm like, and I mean, like, the concept of it is interesting, obviously, but it's like and I also think there are definitely great parts of the movie.

I mean, Coleman Domingo is really good in the movie.

But for the most part, I could just cannot understand what was happening with Glen Powell and he will never be listening to this.

But you know, I'm sorry, sir.

You maybe incredibly nice.

But then I've also seen you in a movie with Sidney Sweeney, which don't even get me started about that.

Like, yeah, I mean they are two peas in a little pod.

Yeah, it feels like they're kind of like the Maga prom King and Queen.

Should I even say that?

It just feels it feels that way.

We're not saying they are that way, but even though Sidney Sweeney is a registered Republican.

But yeah, yeah, anyway, all that to say, my only movie logged this week, and I was I had my feet in the air of the entire time, and yeah.

A traumatic experience from head to toe.

Seems like all right, so what about your diary and what's going on?

Okay, So I watched three movies this week and I liked all of them.

Number one, I watched Gross point Blank from nineteen ninety seven.

I've never seen this before done and fuck, are you serious?

Yeah, I'm serious.

It's great and it's great and I loved it.

And it's interesting because I was like, John Cusack made Gross point Blank and High Fidelity kind of back to back, and he produced both of those with like his production company, and he hasn't really done he hasn't produced, he's done I think he did a movie called War Inc.

Which I haven't seen, which apparently is a loose sequel to Gross point Blank.

But I would love if he tried to produce more movies kind of with his production company out of Chicago.

I don't even know if that production company is like a functioning company anymore, but like Gross point blank and High Fidelity, those are like two amazing movies.

Yeah, you know.

And I have to say, like a lot of people fell in love with Minie Driver, either from Circle of Friends or Goodwill Hunting, and I have to say, this is the one that got me her like her and Gross point Blank.

I was like, I'm in love with that woman.

Yep, uh huh, you too loved it?

I yeah, I love this type of John Cusack movie, and I just I want more yeah of that.

And I don't know if it's too late or if he even wants to make these types of movies, but this type of movie is great.

This kind of like funny, quirky, character driven comedy is great and I loved it.

But I love John Cusack and I just want to see him more often in movies that I want to see.

Yeah, fair enough, I've mentioned that before, but I love him.

Okay.

Then I watched The Naked Gun from twenty twenty five between Reason and Pamela Anderson.

I had a damn blast.

I was giggling.

I had so much fun.

There is a joke about Buffy the Vampire Slayer that had me laughing so hard.

Anyways, I he was great, It was great.

I loved it.

That version was the Fergie joke for me.

The Fergie joke the black Eyed Peas joke, they're very similar jokes.

They're kind of like run on references to something you wouldn't think Liam Neeson's character would know anything about, but it was.

There was some really funny stuff in there, and it's like laugh a minute.

It's the type of movie where there's like a joke every two seconds.

Yeah, you know.

And I had a great time.

Even though David Zucker is it David Zucker who did the original Airplane and Naked Gun.

He was like, I did not like the new one.

It wasn't good.

Ah well, but I was like, it is good.

I like the original Naked Gun and I like this one.

I thought this, I don't know, I thought it was a good continuation.

Did I tell you?

Did I tell you that.

Did I mention this on the podcast.

What I saw in the theater.

I think it was opening maybe an opening night or opening weekend.

That everybody, virtually everybody in the theater was plus and it warmed my heart so much.

That's great.

Yeah, that was great.

Lots of laughter.

It's fun being in a theater where people are really laughing.

Yeah, it was great.

And then I watched a movie called micro Budget from twenty twenty four, and this might come into play in a future episode.

I really enjoyed it.

It's a mockumentary about a the making of a micro budget movie and it was very funny.

And put a pin in that for later.

Okay, we'll do.

But that's it.

That's all I have.

All Right, Well, I guess we're closing this shit, close it up, bye bye.

All right, we are back.

It is time for our big movie discussion, and we're talking about Zodiac from two thousand and seven, directed by David Fincher, screenplay by James Vanderbilt, based on the book Zodiac by Robert Gray Smith, who's also a character in this movie, played by Jake Jillenhall.

The genre true crime thriller ensemble period piece themes paranoia, obsession, drama.

Stand out actors.

Who isn't in this What actor is not in this movie?

There's so many all your guys, my guys, all.

My guys, like even ones.

I was like, oh shit, that is my.

Guy, Elius Cotius, my king, my Greek king.

I love him.

I'm talking Donald Log Donald Logue, Yeah, he loved him, met him.

He love him.

Brian Cox, who doesn't love that?

Motherfucker?

Anthony Edwards, who we love here on this podcast.

We do love here.

Yeah, Miracle Mile.

Or Calemile You kidding?

Come on, I would love to have acted in this movie.

Can you imagine just a big fat Evandy's tie?

What great smoking cigarettes on set?

God?

Yeah, this is like you know, we talked about this when we were talking about the ice Storm because you were like bringing up doesn't like something about like seventies movies looking really hokey.

Yeah, and they have the tendency to do that, but that there's a couple of movies that they're the seventies has really lived in.

This is one of them.

Oh absolutely, it didn't feel like that different from our reality.

It's just like fashions a little different.

They aren't using computers.

Yeah, you know, like it felt very real.

Uh yeah.

Standout actor is Jake Jyllenholme, Mike Mark, Mike Ruffalo, Mark Ruffalo, Robert Downey Junior, Anthony Edwards, Brian Cox, Dermott Milroney, pops in.

There, James la Grosse.

I mean, come on, man, James la Grosse, Chloe Savigner famous quotes, Na, this.

Is the Zodiac speaking.

I feel like that's that's like, A is.

The Zodiac speaking.

Yeah, it is a.

I guess that is a famous quote because he did they did say that.

Uh huh yeah, Millie, MILLI.

What's your personal connection to this movie?

Why do I laugh every single time?

I'm never gonna not laugh.

My personal connection is very fucking strong, because here's the tea.

Like I when I first saw Zodiac, I saw it a couple of years after it came out, not right when it came out, but a couple of years after.

I was literally like looking around, going, why all y'all hate this movie?

This is fucking fantastic.

This is a fucking great movie.

Uh and you know this I'm talking about.

This is how I felt, in spite of the baggage.

The centophile baggage of David Fincher.

I'm gonna say it, yeah, like so many dudes love to talk about David Fincher, and it's like so exhausting, Okay, yeah.

Unfortunately, I feel like sometimes when when you have these types of directors that people just like talk about ad nauseum a bros.

Film brows, You're just like, ugh, don't even want to fucking watch his movies.

Like, just so, having said that, I was like, this movie is, dare I say a masterpiece?

Please?

Dare I think it is a masterpiece?

And so from that point on, I just really couldn't understand why people didn't like it.

And then I a couple of years ago, actually well, I was still living in LA.

They showed it at the New Beverly Cinema, which everybody knows in La, famous movie theater in LA.

They were playing Zodiac and I was like, I'm riding my bike to see that shit, are you kidding me?

I've never seen it in a movie theater, went and saw it, had an amazing time.

Two and a half hours later, came out of a movie theater scared out of my fucking mind, and I was like, oh, I got to ride my bike back home in the dark, and I was terrified.

I was terrified.

Did you have a light on your bike?

Or you're wearing helmet?

Very concerned all these things.

I say, I have a helmet as MIPS.

It's a MIPS helmet.

I had, like to two lights, flashing light.

But I'm a woman riding a bike a loan in West Hollywood, where tons of famous murders have happened.

So I was scared.

And like, when I watched it this time so we could talk about it, I was scared.

Again.

This shit rattles me.

Man, Like, yeah, it's great.

What about you?

What's your connection?

So I was one of these shitheads who would have been screaming at you.

Really, I would have been yelling this movie sucks.

I saw this in college.

I saw it in the theaters, and you know, I was in film school, so you know, I'm right in.

I'm in the pool.

I'm in the stew of the shitheads and we love you know.

I loved Seven, I loved The Game, Panic Room, Fight Club.

All those movies have a very edgy sort of look to them, and they're all pretty violent and thrilling, you know, Yeah, and they're all kind of the same.

They are very much all sort of the same genre, I would say, a movie.

And so when I went to go see Zodiac also, I want to say, this was also right when movies were sort of starting to be shot on digital.

If you recall, so there was like movies like Collateral that came out or I don't know, there was a few others that came out around this time, and Zodiac was one of them.

And in film school it was very much like digital things shot digitally suck.

Digital is evil.

Things need to be shot on film.

And then Zodiac is shot on digital.

And I will say, even watching it this time, some of the night scenes, I'm like, this doesn't look very good to It's not that it doesn't look good, but I'm like, I can tell this is a digital camera.

And I think when I saw it in theaters that really bothered me.

But more than that, I was just kind of like, this isn't like a David Fincher movie.

This is like messy and long and big and not tight and violent like I'm used to with David Fincher movie.

So I kind of was like, I don't get this.

I don't think this is good.

I think he messed up.

Anyways, that was the last time I saw the movie, and so when I was gonna rewatch it, I was like, oh, everybody has changed their pindir tune on this one, and I guarantee you I will not.

I'm gonna think this sucks still.

And I loved it it totally.

I was like, this is the best David Fincher movie.

I totally have done a total one eighty on it.

Yes, And I thought it was so good.

I thought it was so textured.

I thought it was so funny.

I thought it was had a lighter touch than a lot of other David Fincher movies.

And I was just like really impressed.

And I also was able to appreciate it this time as more of a newspaper journalism movie, which it very much is, in addition to being scary.

Yeah.

So anyways, that's very long winded, but that's sort of my personal connection to the movie.

Yeah.

No, I'm actually I mean, it pleases me very much that you have revised your opinion on Zodiac, because I do think that, I mean, I do think that this movie is a perfect example of something which we you know, basically a spouse here on the podcast which is that you should see movies again, like if you can't, if you can stomach it, that is, Yeah, because time and place contexts your personal life, everything plays into.

Growth as a human being.

I mean something you just I mean I talked about that with the Ice Storm.

I was like when I watched it, when I was like, I don't know, nineteen, I was like, I don't get this, you know, but like now I'm a middle aged man with a child, then maybe I have some more understanding of the world now.

So yeah, and I think that just like, I mean, this is like kind of like foundation of the cinema shithead that we talk about so much here, which is that you know, at certain points you just crave different tempos for films.

I mean, when I was younger, I liked really gnarly, violent, salacious, fucked up movies.

And then as I've gotten older, I find myself wanting slower pacing a little bit more, you know, to unravel.

Like this is what I think is so pleasing about, and this is something I wanted to talk to you about kind of right off the bat.

Is the idea of these kind of crime procedural films, which are very like long because I think that that was a criticism of the movie.

I think when I had was starting to watch it, maybe like again like twenty nine twenty ten, which is that it's like God is so boring.

It's like so detail oriented.

It's like, who gives a shit?

You know, like why are we going through like, you know, these tiny little details.

And I that is one of the best things about the movie to me is that this is just a slow burn of all these facts that I think as a younger person I probably wouldn't have had the stomach for I would have gotten bored too.

But now as an older person, I'm like, yes, this is juicy, Give me everything, give me the deeps.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean like every little fact, I was like, ooh, the handwriting doesn't match.

His r's are different, you know.

I was really hanging on each little development.

Right, And this is an unsolved case.

So it is, yes, possibly one of the most famous unsolved crimes in history, I would say, if not the most, definitely in the top three.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of meat on that boat.

And I feel like, like a good movie is knows how to distill that information to where you feel like you're getting a lot of info and it isn't five hours at six hours long, I feel like it's a perfect balance of these things, and like, quite honestly, it made me want to read Robert Graysmith's book, Like.

I absolutely I'm about to go buy that shit right now.

I'm like, this sounds asolutely awesome and I definitely want to know more about it.

But it's I don't know if you thought about this.

I certainly thought about it this time.

Did it not seem that there were so many setups?

Like because think about this movie being like what two and a half hours something like that.

Yeah, and they it's packed with you know, procedure almost kind of like day by day in a lot of sequences, but that they were all have the scenes were happening fast.

So I was like, I was like, going, how many setups did they use total in this film?

Because there's different clothes, different scenes, different setups, and I'm going they must have had like a thousand or so cuts on the cutting room floor that they didn't use.

It seems like an exhausting movie to put together.

Yeah, I do think that's what like makes that is one of David Fincher's superpowers is his like meticulous concentration on very specific details, and he's like so detail oriented that it seems like he's like the kind of man who can make a movie like this.

Because this movie does take place over like years, like you're saying, it's like there's like all these like like they go back to the same locations, but it's like it's years later, so they look they probably look a little different, and people are wearing different clothes and stuff, and it's just the same.

There's not even really like super long takes though, do you know what I'm saying.

It's like, yeah, they really chop it up.

And I'm like, I don't know, I just I was kind of like reeling from that fact this time.

I'm like, man, they must have like.

Had it was a long shoot.

Yeah, it was a long shoot, and I know some of the actors were getting a little worn down by not just to shoot, but also Fincher's meticulous nature, which maybe we'll get into a little bit later.

I'm just gonna start some of the synopsis right now, do it, Okay.

So the opening of the movie, it kind of opens with two murders pretty close together.

This this this plot is gonna be tough to put out.

So I'm gonna just I'm a painting with broad brushstrokes here.

So we open with a very frightening scene of Darlene Farren and Mike Majeaux being shot in a car in Lover's lane like this is like the first scene of the movie and their young kids and Mike survives and Darlene doesn't.

Okay, we've introduced this murderer.

Later, the San Francisco and this is in northern California.

Later, the s at the San Francisco Chronicle, they receive coded letters from a man calling himself Zodiac.

He demands that his coded letters be printed in the paper or else he's going to kill a bunch of people.

He makes a bunch of threats about killing all sorts of people, including school children.

Paul Avery, played by Robert Downey Junior, is a right at and reporter at the Chronicle and he ends up being kind of the main guy writing about the Zodiac for the San Francisco Chronicle.

Robert gray Smith is a political cartoonist play by Jake Gillenhall, and he is just sort of around collecting information overhearing conversations.

He's a political cartoonist.

He has no involvement in these cases.

He's not even writing about it, but he's just around.

So then another couple is murdered, Brian Hartnell and Cecilia Sheppard.

These are real people.

They are stabbed by the Zodiac while hanging out near Lake Barriessa.

Again, the man survives and the woman is killed.

So that's sort of the beginning kind of the setup, these two murders, and the Zodiac is taking credit for these murders in his letters to the newspaper.

So this is sort of the setup.

And this is the seventies, this is the late sixties at this point in nineteen sixty nine, and this movie takes place over the course of like fifteen twenty years, right basically, So what you know, we talked about even Fincher a little bit, but like, what is your relationship to David fincher movies?

And would you did you say that this is your favorite one?

Yeah, it is for sure.

I mean I have sort of dipped in and out of him in my life.

I mean, to be completely honest with you, I'm like, he gets an a plus for me for shooting those Madonna videos from the eighties, shot express let's express yourself yog So I love that stuff, can't get enough of that.

I loved seven in high school.

I have gone on record talking about this.

I saw what you did.

I was stupidly obsessed with that.

Me and my friends were so stupidly obsessed with seven when it came out, and we were just dorks about it.

If you remember me talking about my affiliation with the Seven Deadly Monkeys, you might know exactly what I'm talking about.

I I liked Seven and rewatched it for the pod, thought it was great, and then like there's just stuff in between that I was, I mean, no interest in Fight Club by the way, like Zero I watched it, I was like, I mean, I don't even need to go into that at all.

Yeah, did not see Benji Buttons, but I liked Gone Girls, So it was kind of that feeling of like eh, and then I'm like, oh, this is interesting.

Oh and then you know, so it's kind of like I don't know, I'm very like hot and cold with him.

But when I when I saw Zodiac, I was like, absolutely fantastic, and I was like, this has to be his best movie.

I don't know, is it because it's the Underdog.

I don't know.

Yeah, it is sort of his most like it is kind of a non commercial movie in some ways.

Yeah, because it is just so long and boring in the best possible way.

But yeah, I I have kind of a similar relationship to David Fincher that you have.

I'm a little hot and cold on him.

I like seven.

I really liked Fight Club when I was in high school.

I need to rewatch that because I'm like, bro, I'm just like curious what my reaction to it would be.

Now.

I really liked The Social Network when that came out, and I liked Gone Girl a lot.

I also liked Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and but I really did not like Mank really Yeah, and I thought The Killer was pretty good.

The Killer was pretty too, But I would I would say he's like not my He's not I don't really like hold him.

I like a lot of his movies, but I don't like love him like like some people are like love him as a like director, like I don't.

I'm a tour I don't really like hold him in a personal place in my heart.

I guess this is what I would say.

But he is the thing that I do sort of find his whole thing.

He's famous for taking like one hundred takes of every scene.

Is he and actors really get annoyed with him?

And Robert Downey Junior said on this movie because Jake Jonenhall was like getting really irritated filming this movie.

And Robert Downey Junior said, I just decided, aside from several times I wanted to grow to him, which means strangle him, that I was going to give him what he wanted.

I think I'm a perfect person to work for him because I understand goologs.

That's Robert Downey Junior's quote about working on this movie.

So I don't know.

I think that like sort of Stanley Kubrick style of filmmaking and directing is a little like corny and outdated.

Like being this like dictator on the set I think is kind of bad for the film industry.

But he doesn't.

He's not like a cancelable director or anything.

But I do find that kind of attitude obnoxious.

I guess, yeah, I do.

I do think that that's probably pretty annoying.

I also think, at the same time, Mike do I feel sorry for Jake jollen Hall having to do one hundred takes in Zodiac, I'm like, I don't know, he's hot, he's famous, he dated Taylor Show, So.

What's he got to complain about?

Oh, this is your only job.

Hey, I wish my job could be an awesome dude in an awesome movie.

My wife is very attracted to him.

That's another thing that he's got going for him.

This is the hot This is a high era of Jake g I would say too.

Yeah, because I like Jake Jillen Hall.

Yeah, I'm also kind of hot and cold with him too in that interesting Yeah, I don't know, Like there are times where I'm like, oh, he's cute, and like in Zodia, I was like, he's adorable this movie, adorable as he could be in a movie about a serial killer, right, But then there are times where I'm like, yeah, I don't really like him very much.

But it's it's hard because it's like again, like I don't know, Like this movie is so chalk full of like dudes, right, Like all these dudes that sinophile types have opinions about, including RDJ, will get to that.

I'm sure Mark Ruffalo people fucking love Mark Ruffalo.

I actually think he's fantastic in this movie, by the way, But you put it all together and you're kind of like, Okay, like, what's if I can do?

I need to strip back my personal opinions about people in the context of like sinophilia and just try to see it for what it is, because unfortunately it colors your opinions about things like the ways in which people talk about certain actors and directors that are quote unquote artists, this kind of stuff, and you're, you know, sometimes you're just like negatively affected by it.

Right, Sometimes fans of things negatively affect the thing itself, yes, and that's unfortunate.

You know.

Christopher Nolan is kind of a similar type of director in my mind as David Fincher, and I like a lot of Christopher Nolan movies, but his fans are really annoying to me, and it makes me want to seek out his movies.

Last well, I mean, we talked about it a bit, we were talking about PTA and one battle after another, it's like this.

You know.

It's like I show up at a movie theater and there's three hundred other dudes there and I'm just like, Okay, I see what this is.

Even though I love Pta and I am a huge fan of a lot of his movies.

It's just, you know, it's that thing.

I don't feel like I'm punching down by saying suck it up, Jake Chillenhall or something.

But I also think it is annoying.

I would I would think to be an actor and to have somebody make new things over and over.

And over again.

Yeah, all right, I'm gonna move on to the next section here.

So a cab driver, Paul Stein, is killed by the Zodiac in San Francisco.

The Zodiac has entered the city because up until now it's been sort of in these counties outside of San Francisco.

So Dave Toski played by Mark Ruffalo and his partner Bill Armstrong played by Anthony Edwards are assigned to the case.

So this is where these two guys enter the picture.

And I like them immediately.

Yes, Mark ruf Dave Tosky.

He loves animal crackers, so do I.

You know.

The Zodiac demands also to talk to famed attorney Melvin Belli played by Brian Cox on TV, and they do this on TV.

Melvin Belli is like Zodiac call in and the Zodiac allegedly calls in, but it's unclear if it's actually him, which is kind of an ongoing thing.

Who is the Zodiac?

Was this an actual message from the Zodiac or a copycat?

It's hard to know.

But the Zodiac also sent a piece of the dead cab driver's blooded shirt too, Reporter Paul Avery.

So now Robert Donney Junior's character is actually getting male from the Zodiac killer.

What do you think of RDJ?

God, why are you asking me all these like film school shithead questions today?

Why are you asking me all these questions about movies?

Well, it's like, Okay, I need to stay for the record that I've not seen the Iron Man movies.

Okay, I don't know RDYJ in his current form, which is that he's a Marvel guy.

Okay, Yeah, I know him from eighties movies like Weird Science, which I think he was great in despite people's feelings about Weird Science.

But I grew up with him in these movies in like the Less Than Zero's and the pick Up Artists and stuff.

Right, So that's the charisma that I remember him having as an actor, which I feel like he has just continued to do throughout his career, right, so really you're like, Okay, well he's kind of the same dude.

Maybe he's not that way in chaplain, but you know what I mean, Like for the most part, like when he's not like stuck in an impression of someone and he's allowed to just be himself, like that base character base him is great to me.

I think he's charming and funny and and I think that in Zodiac it's the best, one of the best representations of that personality.

Does that make sense?

I agree.

I like the whole RDJ thing.

I think he's charming and funny.

But there are movies where it feels like the inmates are running the asylum and he has been taken off the chain, and I feel like the movie suffers as a result.

I remember seeing Home for the Holidays.

Do you remember that Thanksgiving movie from nineteen ninety five, directed by Jodie Foster, Uh huh.

I feel like RDJ was really allowed to let loose in that one, and it just felt like out of control.

So this I felt like was the best use of him, because it was he was, you know, under the thumb of David Fincher, but still so charming and funny, but within the confines of the movie more it felt like it was being utilized properly in this movie, so I enjoyed having him in it.

Yeah, he plays his character is kind of like a bohemian newspaper reporter, has droken alcohol problems, yes, but he's kind of just like this.

I don't know that.

He's got this like zestiness to him that is just really fun and it kind of breaks up the other characters in the movie who were kind of a little less quirky.

I mean, they all have their quirks.

I mean, animal crackers, Are you kidding me?

But like you know, he has he's kind of the most Sam francisco Ish kind of guy.

Yeah you know what I mean of a hippie.

This really made me want to go to San Francisco, and I haven't spend like any time there, but it sort of seems like a place.

It seems like the city doesn't exist anymore, or like people don't move there in the way that people like, you know, I just know a lot of people who are like, oh, I moved to Portland, Oregon, or I moved to New York or La or Austin.

These sort of like destination cities to like find themselves or start over.

And I feel like San Francisco used to be kind of on that list, but now it's just such a Silicon valley, which people city.

It makes me sad that this really original, famous city is not what it once was.

Yeah, I mean, you cannot deny that the tech industry pretty much ruined San Francisco, you know, in a lot of yeahs.

I used to go there.

I went there a couple times in my like early twenties.

That's when I went to that mod party that I talked about during the dig episode.

Yeah.

Yeah, And I mean I had had such a fondness for it because it was, like, you know, I was really into like beat poetry, writers and counterculture and this kind of stuff.

And then I would visit every so often for work and things like that.

And yeah, I mean I think it I think it was different.

I was having a different experience I think than I was saying like nineteen ninety eight, right.

Yeah.

But it's interesting in the context of films because San Francisco is a place where a lot of crime movies have happened.

I mean it's like, yeah, I mean we talked about this on I can't remember what we talked about on what noir movie we were talking about, but it was like, what cities do noir movies take place in?

It's like La New York, San Francisco.

Yeah, And you know, and it's.

Funny because I feel like San Francisco.

Like, for example, if you think about seven, let's just talk about seven, the other David Finch movie that takes place in like what Seattle or something like that.

Where it's like an unnamed city, right, but it's like you it's definitely Pacific Northwest.

It rains constantly, you know, and you're like, oh, yeah, I mean this is depressing.

Of course, crime happens here San Francisco.

There's a lot of crime films that are set in San Francisco, right, And I think about it in terms of, like, wow, what a city to be kind of in movies, like this representation of like gritty like cops and you know, crimes.

And then you know, it's like you think about it in terms of having this big like hippie history and the idea that now there's like the tech industry there, and you're like, why was a lot of like why was Verdigo shot in San Francisco, or like why was you know whatever the conversation or point blank, like you know all these kind of gritty, these kind of gritty movies happening in this place of peace, love and happiness, I suppose, but.

Yeah, I don't know.

The weather's really unpredictable in San Francisco.

By the way, I've never been to a city in my life where I've had to buy clothes as much as I have.

I swear to go every time I go to services school, I have to buy clothes because I'm like not dressed, right.

Yeah.

They talked about that with like a Candlestick Park, which is where the forty nine ers used to play, and they were like, it was the coldest vortex in the on the planet.

It was like even on a nice day, it was like you had to wear like a full winter jacket in there for some reason.

Yeah, yeah, no, it was.

It's I always have to buy scarves and hats and jackets sometimes.

And I don't know, I love it.

I love going there, but it's it's such an interesting, interesting place and yeah, I don't know, Like and I think about it in terms of the zodiac too, you're like sixty nine you know, a Zodiac killer rolling around up there.

You're like, yeah, it's kind of that feeling of I mean, they play like, they play the song throughout the film, but that Donovan song the Hurdy Gurdy Man, which I think is the perfect creepy hippie song to play.

Okay, I'm gonna move on to the next section, which this whole secon The next section, I feel like, is just this one scene, which is where they interview Arthur Lee Allen played by John Carroll Lynch.

Now we have detectives Toski and Armstrong.

That's Mark Ruffalo and Anthony Edwards, but we also have Jack Mullenax who's a sergeant, and that he's played by Elius Cotias and the great Elias Cotiis.

He's in so many movies.

I love Exotica, Crash.

Some kind of wonderful, what are you fucking kid me?

Some kind of wonderful, The Thin Red Line.

So they interview this guy, Arthur Lee Allen also known as Lee Allen, and there are all of these kind of uh, what do you call it when it's not a hard piece of evidence, but it's a circumstantial lots of circumstantial evidence, like he was near Lake Barriessa when the couple was killed.

He had bloodied knives in his car at the time that they were stabbed, but he says they're unrelated.

He knows all these references that are like specific to the zodiac.

He has a watch that has the zodiac sign on it.

And this is like, I think this is such a center point of the entire movie, this whole scene, and it was chilling.

I don't know, what did you think about this scene?

I thought it was incredible.

I think this like really puts things into focus, this whole scene.

You know how sometimes you just catch a vibe from a creepy dude.

Yes, and you're like, that guy's murdered people, no question.

This is how I think about that when I'm at I think about that when I'm at Disneyland.

Unlike, somebody here has killed somebody.

There is someone here who has gotten away with murder.

And I may have brushed past him.

Yeah, I might have just been sending in line at the turtle stand behind.

Yeah, but yes, I hear your say.

This is how I felt basically about Arthur Lee Allen as played by John Carroll Lynch, which, by the way, Sir John Carroll Lynch, Sir, I'm sure you're an incredibly nice man, a wonderful actor, but you played the fuck out of this role to the degree which I cannot see you as a normal character at all.

He has a there's a scene at near the end of the movie where he has a look that really he like, I was like, this is acting because he is sending me messages just with like a little look in his face that is frightening me.

Yeah, like unbelievable.

He's so good in this.

This is the thing about the movie that I think is really interesting is that Hammer's home the idea of these people that have all of these things that they think are pointing to who they want to be the person.

Like they're like, we have this, this, this, this and this in my life everyday life.

I would you know, And I'm and I'm just saying with zero stakes, like if you told me, oh, my friend is dating this guy who did this, this, this, this, this is red flags, I'd be like, all right, dump him, right.

I mean, if I'm using all of this circumstantial evidence quote unquote to like tell my friend that her boyfriend sucks or something, you know, But to the degree which happens in this film, which is basically police officers who are sort of doing that thing where they're like, but we have him, here's what we have.

And then somebody having to be like, actually that means nothing.

Like it's not don't prove Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you couple that.

With someone who's just a fucking creep, which that gets fleshed out a lot when they go and visit his fucking trailer, which there was a c there was a brief shot in that movie that shook me to the core which we might talk about but.

Wait, say it now where they go and they go and look in his trailer and it's full of squirrels.

Full of squirrels, and like Anthony Edwards looks down by the bed and sees this fucking dildo with like what crisco or something on the floor, which I never noticed before until I saw it this time that I was shook as fuck seeing that I could not handle it.

I could not.

Handle it, Oh my god.

Ah.

But yeah, I mean, this is the thing is that it's like, okay, like this is you know, in the aggregate, this is the creepiest man to ever live.

But is he the Zodiac killer.

Unfortunately, nobody can actually prove any of it, which is why the case is still unsolved.

And it's just fascinating to me because that's the thing about what David Fincher does in the movie that makes the movie so appealing to me is that he's like working it out in real time.

You know, Like there's the absolutely the part where the Mark Ruffalo character is told by Jermott mulroney that it's not him, and he just like takes his jacket and just walks out of the office like he's just I can't believe it.

You know.

There goes everything that I thought, my work, my life, you know this.

Yeah, he says that thing where he's like, I don't know if I wanted it to be him because I thought it was him, or if I just want this to be over.

Yes, And I just I felt the frustration of that because it's like again, it's it's just probably an unbelievable feeling to just feel like it's not it isn't what you thought, yeah, despite all of your hard work.

Or you're like, this is definitely him, I just can't prove it.

Yeah, Like that's what the thing is.

It's like I it is him, you know, but you can't prove it really.

Oh, I wanted to tell you about the animal crackers thing.

This is a detective Toski thing, which it's kind of a runner in the I don't really think it lands one hundred percent, to be honest.

I think it's really corny and I think it doesn't work.

It's kind of like this is his little quark.

And it's like, plus, I don't like plain animal crackers are like iceed animal crackers.

I like them both.

Yeah, good for you, but yeah, it's it kind of wears thin or all over the time.

But I do like the Mark Ruffalo is so great in this film.

And and him and Anthony Edwards together are really good.

Yeah, I think well, and I want to ask you this too, because we're talking about these detectives.

We haven't even really talked about the Jake Gillenhall character, which we will.

The thing that I think is interesting I like to call this movie it's basically This Zodiac is essentially the heat of serial killer movies, if you think about it, because not only is an ensemble cast of cool bros, but they're all like completely obsessed with this crime to the dismay of their families.

And it's like you got multiple wives in this film that are like, you're too obsessed, get out of the game.

Ended right, in the same way that Heat is like all of those all of those girlfriends and wives are trying to pull them out of the game.

But it's like they're too obsessed.

Yeah, And in this film, I understand why they're obsessed.

Like it like that is communicated to me perfectly where I'm like, oh, I couldn't give this up either if I was.

Then Yeah, it is interesting because I feel like Heat it's kind of adrenaline thing.

It's a high that they are they're addicted to, where this it does feel like more for a purpose or something like, and it's like so much more infuriated.

Yeah, It's like it's not they're not doing it for pleasant reason.

It's not like they're getting joy.

It's a quest and I would be obsessed with the quest.

I couldn't still to be in that whatever, that factory that Arthur Lee Allen is working in when they go and visit him and interrogate him.

Couldn't stand to sit there feeling like I was like, I know this guy did it and he's just smug as fuck, Like he's like he has this line right before he like goes back to work where he's basically like, I long for the day where cops are no longer considered pigs or something.

Yeah, And it just made me nostalgic for when we called cops pigs.

Let's bring it back.

I feel like we should there.

I love I.

Grew up in the generation by the way, which I feel like was completely informed by skateboarding, which is we cops were pigs and then they also were obsessed with donuts.

That was like the two jokes.

Yeah, that existed when I was a teenager about cops, and I was like, we should bring.

That back, bring it back.

I feel like they do that on Wayne's World.

Yeah, they like see that cop in the donut job and they're like something seems like bacon.

Yeah exactly.

It's like, if you want to find all the cops, they're hanging out in the donut shop.

That's what the Bangles said, and walk like an Egyptian.

And these are just jokes that I grew up with it.

I feel like they don't exist anymore.

Like now everybody says like a cab or whatever, which is fine, but like, go back to the donut joke.

I love that joke.

Yeah, let's go back to the donut joke.

I like this, it seems more effective.

Are uh is okay if I move on to the last section here that I have Yeah, okay.

So four years pass, nothing happens.

The case has essentially gone cold, but everyone is haunted by it.

Like MILLI was saying, Paul Avery has become a full blown alcoholic.

He lives on a boat.

Robert gray Smith he has decided he's like going through a divorce.

He's losing his wife is walking out on him.

He's decided to take up this investigation by himself because he is a civilian.

But he knows so much about the case.

And part of the problem with the initial investigation is that there were all these jurisdictions that had to communicate to each other and were like withholding evidence from each other because the murders happened across all these counties.

Basically, so gray Smith, as a civilian, is able to go to all these jurisdictions and collect evidence.

There's a very frightening scene where he goes to this guy, Bob Vaughn's house, played by Charles Fleischer, and it turns out that his handwriting matches the zodiac or is a very close match, and he ends up in the basement of this guy.

It's a very scary scene.

It's a famous.

Yeah, I think that's the scene people bring up with this movie a lot.

But anyways, Jake Jillenhall is talking all these cops and he's they can't convict anybody.

They just can't.

But if you put together a book that takes all the evidence, you can point to somebody basically who did it.

And all this circumstantial evidence points to Lee Allen, And towards the end of the movie, Jake Jillenhall goes to where Lee Allen is working and is like just staring at him.

He just wants to look at him and see him, because he says something earlier in the movie where he's like, I just want to go look at the zodiac, look at the zodiac, and he says something like I think I'd know if he did it if I saw him, or something like that.

Doesn't he say something like that earlier in the movie, And him and John Carroll Lynch sort of stare at each other, and this is the scene I was referring to and John Carroll Lynch looks fucking horrifying.

He looks so scary, and I'm like, in that moment, I'm like, yeah, he did it.

But then later also Mike Migeaux, who is the survivor of the very first killing, he picks Lee Allen out of a lineup and is like, that's the guy who shot me.

So yeah, Zodiac.

Ah man, Well yeah, this is when I think, like the movie really starts to focus on Robert gray Smith as like the Jake Jillett Hall.

He's not in the movie for a long period of time.

In fact, when he came back, I was like, oh, Jake, I missed you.

He was gone.

He was like gone from the movie for all.

Yeah, he was kind of peppered in with the other boys.

But then you know, it starts to become really about him because he's the one that wrote the book that the movie's based off of.

But also like he's kind of the one like everybody is exhausted by this fucking case that they're just like, I wash my hands of it.

There's so much else happening in San Francisco.

I don't give a fuck about the Zodiac anymore.

He hasn't written us in like twenty years or whatever.

It's like, you know, they're all over it.

But like Robert gray Smith, the Jake Gillenhall character is basically like, come on, boys, we got we got stuff.

I gotta go back to the library.

There's all this evidence that we didn't think about.

And at the same time, he decides to like form a relationship with a woman that he goes on a date with, who is played by Chloe seventy and like, I think she looked fantastic in this movie.

She was so authentically seventies.

In fact, I was like, you know what, they could actually be my parents if we think about it from like my parents, when did they get married in seventy one or something like that.

Like I was like that, could they could be my mom and dad for all I know?

And you does part of you wish they were?

No, I like my mom and dad, but you know, in a movie, in a movie context, sure they're my mom and dad.

But I wanted to ask you this because I always thought this was so funny.

They go on on the first date and like he's so wrapped up in the zodiac that she's just like fuck, this is our entire first date.

I guess I'm just.

Gonna hang Yeah, well, you obsess over the zodiac and make phone calls and wait for a phone call from Robert done ju Yeah.

Right, And I kept thinking to myself, I'd probably do that too.

Actually, I would be like if it listen, if I was on a first date with a guy that's like, I'm hunting the Zodiac, I'd be like, sure, I'll go.

I'll go anywhere with you, would you?

Yeah?

Oh?

You know.

If I met my wife Tricia, we went on a date and she's like, I'm hunting the Zodiac, I would have been like, I'm I'm there with you.

What do you need?

Get coffee?

I'm saying, like, who was?

Who in the fuck is gonna be like, god, red flag, I don't know about this.

I'm going home.

I'd be like where, let me help you, Like, let's ride out, Like.

I'm not do you need animal crackers?

I could go get something, you know, I'm like in it to win it.

I was like, what a great first date story.

By the way, I you know, it's interesting watching Jake Jollenholl's character.

He's obsessed, obsessed with finding the zodiac.

I don't have that drive I could.

This couldn't be me.

It could definitely be me.

I would fall down this rabbit hole.

You think that looking up gray Goo on Wikipedia was bad?

I would be so fucking obsessed.

I mean, they're like, I'm surprised that I'm not just like an amateur sleuth on Reddit.

To be honest, yeah, I'm surprised your walls don't have a bunch of red yarn connecting a bunch of photographs.

I think I have too many hobbies.

If I could whittle it down, though, If I could, you know, basically shut off a lot of my extracurriculars and just focus on like one thing like that, I'd be fucking great at it.

Because I gotta tell you, I love busting people like I have done.

Bust.

It makes you feel good, bust it makes me.

Feel not just good, but great.

You have no idea how many times in my life where I have like figured out that like a coworker or somebody is like like a real slimeball shthead, or like you know, somebody's boyfriend was like cheating, or like I'm the one that loves evidence.

I'm like, yo, bring it to me, I'll put it on my murder board, like I'll tie the strings together.

I get a fucking thrill out of it.

So I'm sitting here watching this movie going, man, I would be in the hole with.

I mean, I just really would.

One thing that I think we got to talk about, and this is just because this character is extremely triggering.

Is that Bob von Guy movie lover, cinema shithead.

Bob you might listen to our podcast.

Yeah, he is the cinema shithead of Zodiac works at a silent movie I mean, come on.

I know, like.

Movie theater.

Yes, I know, like ten guys like Bob Lan.

I mean you don't know one dude from all your years living in La.

Yeah, oh absolutely, come on, absolutely.

And specifically silent film dudes.

Oh my god, that's so funny, very interesting.

I knew that guy was somehow involved from the moment he was like, Hey, you want to come back to my house.

I'm like, Nope, I wouldn't.

What do you doing, Robert, that's crazy.

Don't go to this guy's house.

He is a going down.

Let's go down to the basement.

He's a silent film collector.

What are you kid me?

He's probably got mummies down there.

Yeah, And that is why that part of the movie is so creepy, is what do he the fucking terrifying light bulb that goes off?

And Jake Joenhall's characters her He's like, oh, no, I write those posters after he had just spent like the last week or so proving that the handwriting was the zodiacs he had writing, and he's like, no, it's the guy that I'm sitting in this creepy house.

Yeah, with he's his handwriting.

Oh fuck.

It's interesting because he's like he finds out it's like, oh, the guy I think could potentially be the Zodiac.

I am sitting across the table from him in his kitchen, so I've made this discovery.

And then Bob Vaughn's like, let's go to the basement to check my records, and Jake Jillenhall's like okay.

And I think that was really interesting because I'm like, do you want to get killed by the Zodiac?

Like part of me felt like Jake Jillenhall's character was like, I want I want to go to the end to see where this goes, you.

Know, I want to be a victim as basically, yeah, I have to say that this is a type of situation.

This is, and this is at multiple points in the film where as a single person of a certain age, you are quivering in your boots that you're not somebody like this.

Do you know what I'm saying, That you're not Bob Vaughn or the.

Zodiac or some fucking freak that is tangentially related to a serial killer, because you're like, these are just middle aged people who live alone, who have passions like old movies, and you're like, oh no, and now they're creepy as fuck and being investigated because they know people who are creepy as fuck, which do you know how the creeps I know come on Like it's just scary.

It's scary when you see a lifestyle that is sort of similar to yours on a screen.

It can in a crime film and you're like, oh my god.

In connection to a brutal serial killer.

So you're saying you're worried that the FBI is gonna come knocking on your door, and it's like, we have some questions about this guy you that's in your circle.

I mean sort of.

It's more that somebody like Jake Jillenhall would come to my house and think I was a creep because they're like, oh, do you realize how many fucking DVDs this woman has?

Like, ugh, there's an a lend a lawn life size cutout in her home.

I'm scared, That's what I'm saying.

It's like people are getting the rock impression of me, that I'm this like fucked up person, and I'm like abnormal.

I promise.

I just collect weird things sometimes, like hats and rock t shirts and.

Oh my god, wow, that's a that's a read of this movie.

I wasn't prepared to hear this.

And this is why our podcasts exists.

Okay, oh man?

Any other final thoughts on The Zodiac Well.

I would like to ask you who do you think the Zodiac Killer is.

I think that one of the things I like about this movie is that, yes, it's open ended, like they throughout the movie there are several actors playing the Zodiac Killer, sure, and you never see their face, but it's like different voices and stuff, so you're not sure.

But this movie also is basically like it's Lee l Like, I mean, it's pretty pointed towards this one guy.

Yeah, which I I'm glad they took that point of view, that it's like it does like evidence would point to this man.

Yeah, I will say that I believe that that's true too.

I mean, like I said, without having done hard research on the case and really just has seen David Fincher Zodiac, I will say all signs points to Lee Allen.

I hate that he has taken the Most Dangerous Game and has sullied it.

The movie by the way, because have you ever seen.

The movie The Most Dangerous I haven't seen the movie with.

My boyfriend Joel McCrae nineteen thirty two.

Oh Ray, fantastic pre code.

You gotta watch it.

But it's all I'll check it out.

It's now become the like shorthand for murderers and such.

Yeah, I think I uh read the book in high school with the story it's based on.

But well do I I don't like that there's a lot of old movie creeps that are being implicated in this fandango.

But I do think that Lee Allen did it.

Probably who knows?

It does seem like it, but yeah, who knows, who knows?

But man, what a film.

Really enjoyed it.

I'm glad you like it now.

I'm glad you like it now because I love it.

I think y'all should all watch it.

It's great.

It's a joy to take a movie from my dislike Calum and put it in my love call telling you you know, so, it's a treat for me.

All Right, we're back and it's time for some gripes, scropes and grits.

Grabs, groups and grits, grabs, groups and grits.

I got something that's making me obsave, all right, So we got a few here, Hi, Millian Casey.

I recently listened to your episode about eight twenty four films at mid and Midsommer.

The conversation at the end regarding various films that have won awards but haven't left a lasting mark on the cultural zeitgeist made me wonder about the inverse, which films from recent years or any number of years ago, did not receive any awards slash critical acclaim upon their release, but later became significant in our culture and continue to influence the film industry today.

Thanks for reading my question, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks again, Elena from Boston.

Huh Zodiac.

I feel like we just talked about one.

I mean there's so many.

I mean, like I'm a cult movie person.

Yeah, you know, think about like how many shitty movies quote unquote that have now become classics.

I mean it's like Rocky Horror Picture Show or anything.

Just name it, Like I mean John Waters is you know, like has this that is in the museum world and you know is on a Criterion collection.

And I mean it's like everybody got their just desserts in that way.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

I'm trying to think of any that are like came out in like recent years that would that I think will be big or important that just nobody or got very little fan fair.

Yeah, I don't know.

I mean it's I don't know.

I mean I feel like there are movies that have influenced the kind of visual culture that we have now that are like, you know, I don't know, like stylistically, like you think about stuff like Natural Born Killers or like, you know, nineties movies that have like lasted to where the visual style of them has continued, like Terror.

I would say Tarantino movies are that way.

You know, there's a lot of that kind of stuff that has persisted in even in social media and commercials and that kind of stuff.

There's I mean, there's so many movies that just get missed because they'd come out at the wrong time or people aren't ready for them, and I don't know, it's this is hard, this is this is like a research paper.

Yeah, I mean I think I think that cult movies are kind of ripe for that kind of stuff because a lot of times they are purposely or you know, kind of destined to be obscure because they're quote unquote badly made, low budget, you know, made by maniacs.

But then at some point the movie persists and it kind of jumps from the kind of cult audience to like mainstream culture, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I think about like even stuff like Penelopece Versus to Cloud of Western civilization documentaries and that kind of stuff where it's like, you know, you see elements of those films in a lot of stuff now.

So, yeah, Jennifer's Body another movie we've covered on the show.

I feel like was critically panned at the time, and it's become a huge cult classic, Like people really love that movie now.

So that's another one.

But yeah, thank you Elena for the question.

All right, Millie, I have a voicemailing going to play here for you.

Dear Milly and Casey, thank you so so much for your film advice.

I need your help and your expert advice and navigation as I venture into American Western movies.

Obviously, everything and beyond American cinema I would take.

But let's just say that my inn here is Tombstone and Val Kilmer acting his gorgeous, gorgeous RP King, but Val Kilmer acting his gorgeous gorgeous.

Ass off as Doc Holiday.

See.

Now, if people told me that Western movies could be full of complex, bizarre worlds and strange character work, you know what, I maybe would have tapped in a lot sooner.

Okay, but this is why I need your guidance.

Please.

Thank you so very much.

Casey.

You're doing an insanely good job.

I absolutely love the dialogue between you two.

Millie.

Thank you so so much.

Your laugh makes me laugh.

And anyway, long story, love you guys.

Thank you so much.

Thank you Christina for the voicemail, Millie, do you have any Western suggestions that Christina can start off with?

Do you want my top ten top five shit I'm not gonna rank them.

I'm not gonna rank them.

I'm just gonna I'm gonna start listing them out.

I love western and I swear I started liking them after I started working at TCM, because I actually began to understand them more.

When I was younger, I thought they were all boring and really American, and you know, there's a lot of problematic elements to Westerns.

American Westerns for sure, absolutely, But I again, we were talking about the tempo of films and how your patience for them changes over the years.

I think Westerns became appealing to me as I got older, because I just like the way that they're rolled out.

The acting is, you know a lot of times very understated.

It's like these kind of morality tales, a lot of great character actors and just sort of like, I don't know, the scenery of a Western, the desert.

I mean, when I lived in California, I was like, this is fantastic, Like I love you know, the john Ford shot in National Parks vibes and that kind of stuff.

So let me throw some out please.

I would say, watch red River from nineteen forty eight starring Montgomery Cliff and John Wayne.

Great film about kind of like old school versus new school cowboys, and Montgomery Cliff is fantastic in it and probably one of his best roles ever.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Johnny Guitar from nineteen fifty four, probably like one of the best feminist masterpieces of film, Nicholas Ray Joan Crawford.

I'm gonna also go with if you've never seen stage Coach the originals like nineteen thirty nine with John Wayne and Claire Trevor.

Stage Coach is fantastic.

Like I mean, say what you want about John Wayne, and I promise I have a lot to say about him, but you know, some of these movies are that he's made over the years really are great and he happens to be in them, if you know what I mean.

Uh more newish stuff.

Mccab and Missus Miller Robert Altman nineteen seventy one really great, like such a vibe, like an amazing movie.

I would say, if you should watch, you should watch McCay and Missus Miller and then watch like some Sam Peck and Paul movies like The Wild Bunch.

Absolutely, you gotta watch the Treasure of the Siarah Madre nineteen forty eight, Humphrey Bogart, Tim Holt, Walter Houston.

I mean this is important, Like everybody talks about the Treasure of Siera Madre being like a classic important Hollywood film.

It totally is.

It is, it stands the hype.

You've gotta watch it.

Another kind of like revisionists cea Western thing along the lines of mcay, but missus Miller and the Peck and Pall stuff is Butch Cassidy and so the dance Kid.

You cannot go wrong with Redford Newman, Charm, Pizza Arm, what else?

Who else?

Oh?

I think that?

Yes, yes, of course, of course by.

The High Country Randolph Scott and my aforementioned boyfriend Joel McCrae, a meditation on aging.

It is fantastic.

Honestly, could keep going.

I mean I love Western so much.

I mean, you got I didn't even mention like the Man from Laramie and Magnificent seven, and even like the freakin Sergio Leoni movies.

I mean, there's so much, so much that's a that's a great place to start.

I think I would watch Hood Hud nineteen sixty three of Paul Newman.

Okay, promise I'm gonna shut up now.

Okay, that's enough, right, that's a lot.

That was more than enough.

That was actually two men, Christine, I hope that was helpful.

Me too, Me too.

Okay, we have one more of this.

One's quick.

Hi Millie Casey.

This is Sydney, this is Lauren, and we have a long standing film feud for you both, really an argument that's been going on for years, and we'd like you to be the deciding factor of why I'm right.

I'm right.

So Night More Before Christmas Tim Burton classic, uh huh, classic Halloween movie, classic Christmas movie.

So we need your advice and your expertise and your input and your opinion.

And it might not change our opinions, but it will, right.

It will solidify the right answer for Night Before Christmas being a Halloween movie.

So if you could answer this question for us, that would be great, really appreciated.

We love it, Thank you, thank you, We love you.

Guys.

Okay, I don't know if you have an opinion on this.

There's a well choreographed voicemail by the way, under a minute.

Yeah, it was like a duo.

They're adorable.

Yeah, that was very cute.

I love that I have a definitive answer to this.

Do you have any opinion on that?

I want you to say you're definitive answer.

It's a Halloween movie.

It's spooky, it takes place in Halloween Town predominantly.

It is the same plot as how the Grin Stole Christmas kind of, but it's it's you know, Halloween is always sort of in conversation with Christmas because it's kind of these two huge holidays that are like beating up on Thanksgiving, And uh, I don't know, it's it's a spooky movie.

It's one hundred percent a Halloween movie.

That is my final decision on that.

What do you think, MILLI, Well, like Santa Claus is in it, right, yeah, so it can't be a Christmas movie.

Would you watch this on Christmas?

Sure?

Why the fuck not?

I mean, I don't know.

Like again, it goes back to the like real low stakes of a Christmas movie.

If we can call Zodiac Christmas movie, why the fuck are we not called The Nightmare before Christmas a Christmas movie?

Would you say it?

But it's it's more a Halloween movie.

Though, okay, But also the idea that there is just simply a Christmas tinge to it means you can watch it on Christmas.

In my opinion, if we're going by the current metrics of what makes a Christmas movie a Christmas movie, I mean maybe this is another alons Old all Day question.

I'm just trying to provide a counterbalance to this definitive answer that you'd give it.

Like you've got the definitive answer.

It's would you classify it a Christmas movie or a Halloween movie?

And I would definitively classify it as a Halloween movie, I guess in my estimation.

But you know what you think otherwise, And.

Well, I'm just saying the I think basing it on the current metrics of what makes a Christmas movie, which is that you just need like zero point zero one percent of Christmas vibes and it becomes a Christmas movie.

So by that standard, I would call this a Christmas movie.

Do I think that it has more Halloween in it?

Sure, but there's also more sex in Eyes Wide Shut than there is Christmas, and people watch on Christmas.

I think there's more explosions than die Hard.

I also watch Holiday also, I think there's more explosions in die Hard than there is Christmas, and yet people watch die Hard on Christmas?

Do you know?

Do you understand what I'm saying.

I don't think we helped Sydney or Lauren, but.

We picked, we picked sides, and I feel like we provided a swath of opinions.

So sure, yeah, Okay, Well, thank you for everyone who wrote and called in, please continue to do so.

All right, it is time for Employees Picks, where we pick movie recommendations based on the theme of the episode.

Billy, what is your employee pick?

Well, this is a layup this week because I really don't feel like giving you something that's like super obscure.

But I'm gonna pick Silence of the Lambs from nineteen ninety one who Jonathan Demi, also about a serial killer, also a crime procedural film.

What have I not said about the Silence of the Lambs.

It's a great film.

Rewatched it, like semi recently in a theater and was scared to death as I was when I was watching Zodiac.

So these are like both like movies that are extremely effective many years after and yeah, that's a mark of a good movie to me.

So I don't know if you haven't seen it for some reason.

You should watch it.

Great movie putting the pieces together.

It's thrilling.

Yes, I also have a layup this week and it is All the President's Men from nineteen seventy six, a great newspaper movie.

And I would consider Zodiac a great newspaper movie.

There's such a high of like a guy going around interviewing, getting all these like little details and it coming together.

And All the President's Men really scratches that itch.

It's so exciting and enthralling and so fun and so like that nineteen seventies paranoia movies.

Those are so good.

And yeah, and rip Robert Redford.

Yes, looking beautiful.

So check out All the Presidents Men.

But that's our show in the future.

If you'd like film advice or if you need a specific recommendation, if you have a gripe a grope a gret, email us at dear Movies at exactly right Media.

You can also send in a voicemail like a few of our listeners have.

Please do so.

Make sure it's under a minute, You've recorded it in a nice quiet space, and you can email that too.

Deer movies at exactly rightmedia dot com.

Also please Okay.

I made a call I think it was either the last episode or the one before it, where I was like, please follow us on Instagram, and it seemed to have worked, so I'm gonna say it again.

Follow us on Instagram.

It's like basically where we hang out besides the email, right, we are at Deer Movies I Love You on Instagram.

We're also on Facebook if you're a Facebook person, and also we're on Letterbox, each of us individually.

I'm at mda Cherco.

He's at Casey Lei O'Brien and if you have the iHeartRadio app, please listen to Deer Movies I Love You there.

If you have Apple Podcasts, we're also there.

Honestly, wherever you get your podcasts, that's right.

And rate and review our show.

That helps.

Please.

Okay, next week, big episode.

I think you kind of know.

What's gonna happen because it's the end of the year, goodbye twenty twenty five, and uh, we're gonna do a best of our faves from the year.

Are we qualified to.

Do that now, Millie?

I was just going to ask the same goddamn question.

I don't know if we have the qualifications to say what was the best of twenty twenty five, to be honest, but we're gonna try.

We'll try, we'll see what happens.

Let's just say, let's just say, let's just walk in with good intentions and hopefully it'll work out the best of intentions.

Yes, uh, but yeah, that's it.

Thank you, Millie.

Hey, always a pleasure.

Thank you, Casey.

I'm sorry you're getting those fart emails.

Hopefully we can clear that up pretty quickly.

Yeah, no more fart emails people, please, Bye bye.

This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Millie to Cherco and produced by my co host Casey O'Brien.

This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogal.

Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, our guest booker is Patrick Cottner, and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, The Softies.

Thank you to our executive producers Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie to Jerico, we love you.

Goodbye Beer