Music.

Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of The Virtual Couch.

I'm your host, Tony Overbay.

I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and so excited to get to today's episode.

Today, I am sharing this bonus episode of an interview that I was on on my good friends Steph and Craig's podcast, the aptly named Steph and Craig Show.

So, Steph and Craig were on my podcast a few months ago, and the episode was about taking the scenic route in your relationship because they have both been through a lot of amazing, wonderful things in their lives that they've acknowledged they would not take any of them back, but they have really been on a journey, a deep dive, learned so much about themselves.

So, I pulled up the introduction to the podcast to their appearance on the virtual couch a little while ago.

And I think this will give you an idea of who Steph and Craig are.

In that episode, in the introduction, I said, Steph and Craig shared their remarkable journey from meeting as a police officer and dispatcher to becoming relationship content creators who are being radically vulnerable.

They don't hold back because they discuss the chaos of their early relationship, blending families, career crisis, mental health struggles, and the imbalance dynamics that nearly tore them apart.

And if you have not listened to that episode, I highly recommend it.

I know I've said that before about other episodes, but they are just connected in such a fascinating way.

You can't help but just be drawn into their story.

If I remember correctly, in that episode.

At one point, we were talking about, I think, emotional regulation or differentiation or some mental health topic.

And Steph was sharing an experience that she had.

And she was having, I think, a little bit of a panic attack.

And they were in a car.

And I just love that Craig said that he wanted to help so bad.

And they pulled over at the side of the road.

And I think he said, do you need to chant or do a drum circle?

And I just thought, those are not the first things that come to my mind when I am hoping to help soothe my dear wife.

I love that that's where they're at.

The reason I wanted to share today's interview on my podcast is because I've been somewhat obsessed with what I am calling the emotional immaturity epidemic.

I think once you recognize the ways that we are all emotionally immature, you can't unsee it.

And I think it really helps people show up better in their own relationships.

And we didn't know what we didn't know of how we show up in immature ways, whether it's the all or nothing black or white thinking.

I just had a couple leave my office, and one of the things I'm seeing so often is one of the people in the relationship will shut down and go inward.

I can check in with them and say, okay, what are you thinking right now?

And they're saying, I don't really want to say the wrong thing, as if there was a right and a wrong thing to say.

So, they revert back to this emotionally immature way that was helpful.

As a child, we were able to even dig back into this person's childhood, and there wasn't a lot of curiosity about who they were as a kid.

So they already didn't offer up things about themselves, but even more so, then they would hunker down, wait till the storm subsided.

They don't wanna say the wrong thing and get in more trouble.

And that kept them alive as a kid, but in their adult relationship, it's not very helpful because when one partner was having some big emotions and then I watched as this other partner turned inward and shut down, then you can see that that partner that was being emotional felt like they were left on their own.

They felt abandoned, but the little kid and the other partner that shut down and didn't want to get in trouble or say the wrong thing, that worked, but it no longer does.

And we were able to have a really healthy conversation around how to show up in a more emotionally mature way.

And within 10 or 15 minutes, we had solved everything.

They lived happily ever after and they are done with therapy.

That is also emotionally mature.

That is my magical thinking.

That actually did not happen, but it really was a good session.

If you wanna know more about Stephen Craig, go to stephencraig.co.

I'll have the link in the show notes.

And also at some point in the interview, I will insert in there a couple of things.

I've got some information about a cruise that I am participating in that I will be doing some speaking, some workshops, and it's with my friend, Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee, co-host of Love ADHD, the podcast.

And I will also, for any of you men who hang on until the very end, I've got a little bit of a longer commercial.

Somewhat of a commercial about my men's emotional architects group, which is very much ready to start up.

And that is going to help a lot of us become more emotionally mature.

So I highly recommend that.

And as always, please go follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch or on TikTok at virtual couch.

Starting to up the number of live question and answers with my daughter, Sydney.

So I try to do that once or twice a week.

I would love for you to follow me on those social media platforms and catch one of those lives.

If you have questions though, in general, submit them through my website, tonyoverbay.com.

While you're there, sign up for the newsletter, or you can reach out to me at contact at tonyoverbay.com.

Okay.

Without any further ado, let's get to my appearance on the Stephen Craig show.

Tony, welcome back.

We're super excited to have you here.

I had this idea in my head too.

It's gone now, but I just realized as we began, I was going to give you like this big introduction.

I don't know if that came to me in a dream or not.

It was like, I don't remember what it was, but here we are.

Okay.

I'll talk about the thing that I was going to do and then not do the thing.

So then it's really awkward and strange.

It was very powerful.

It's theater of the mind.

I'm sure the listener right now is thinking of their own powerful introduction of me, even.

And well if they're listening to the show they know who you are because we have been had the pleasure of speaking with you yeah it's been like a year since you were on this i don't remember i think so about a year wow sounds right how did that go so fast i don't know i get okay it speeds up the older we get isn't that a fact some there's some physics thing that's why i'm a therapist i don't know math or physics but there's something to do with time time travel time speeding up something about it totally feels like it speeds up when you get older right when you were a kid it was so slow like you had to wait for summer break and then you had to wait for christmas and then you had to wait for your birthday and all of it was just so incredibly like come on already i was like waiting for 18 forever thought i would never never get there now i'm like it's already i've already doubled that number like in a blink and then some i'm like how did that Well, like what you're saying is now it's like, man, it's already Christmas again.

It's already my birthday.

It's already summer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It happens really fast.

Tony, you mentioned emotional immaturity.

Yeah.

We posted this.

We had this piece of content that is doing pretty good on Facebook right now.

It's got over 5 million views.

And we stole the, it's a repurposed piece of content of this woman just flipping a car.

So it's some sort of like weight competition where they strip down a car and then you have to flip it over on its top and then continue to flip it over all the way.

Right.

She's a badass.

She's rolling.

It's awesome.

It's a really cool reel.

And then I put in the like on the screen, the text on the screen is women like carrying the emotional weight of the relationship.

Wow.

And in the clip too, they've got, it's perfectly shot where there's these two guys that are like, when she gets it lifted up, they slide in supports underneath the tires at the very beginning.

So it's like men doing the bare minimum.

And when it comes to emotional weight, carrying the emotional weight of the relationship.

So it sparked quite a bit of conversation.

There's a handful of comments on there, like thousands of people that are mostly men that obviously have an issue with it.

Okay.

And it has really made me think about, because...

There's a lot of negativity on there, but it's like fallen into a couple of different camps.

One camp is people that just want to argue the fact that, you know, this is bullshit and emotional weight isn't a real thing.

And women are the ones that bring the emotional weight.

So it's like men arguing that this is bullshit.

And then the next camp is just like complete.

It's not even an engine in the car.

Yeah.

Like just completely minimizing the woman, right?

That she obviously this is a stripped down car, like this is a joke, all of those things.

And then the last one is just pure sexualization of the whole experience.

And none of it is taking responsibility for, I mean, it's definitely, I definitely, you know, framed it in such a way where I was hoping to spark something from people because I think it's a really big issue.

But what it's highlighting for me, because it's gone so big and there's people all over the world commenting on it is it's just like the level with which men will avoid taking accountability and ownership of a simple thing of, hey, maybe you need to look at your emotions.

And instead everything else that we'll do to kind of avoid that.

And it's just, it's fascinating, but it's also really disheartening.

And it's the last couple of days being in the weeds and the comments and responding to people and engaging with people.

I'm just like, holy cow.

I didn't feel like it was that bad off, but it feels like it's pretty bad off where there's a very small snippet of society, obviously.

It's like 5 million views and then 300, not 300,000, but like 3,000 or 5,000 comments or something like that.

So definitely a small percentage.

But at the same time, I'm like, is it really that bad?

Are men still so oblivious to the fact that they have to feel and express and connect in all of these kind of different ways?

Yeah.

So it's perfect timing that you're here to talk about it.

It really is.

It's such a good setup and mind if I tangent, and then we'll come and we'll make our way there because I think this is so excellent because so when I started, so I've got the two podcasts, virtual couch and which is 450 or so episodes and waking up to narcissism, which is I think maybe pushing 140 and the waking up to narcissism has always had.

I always had this vision that, and it's funny because the word narcissist is thrown around everywhere.

Everyone's ex is a narcissist.

Everybody's boss is a narcissist.

I do maintain that cats are narcissistic in nature.

Every little kid is by definition a narcissist.

They're so ego, egocentric, but the actual population or that could be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, but depending on your study is, I don't know, three to 5%.

So then I've said what we all are though, is emotionally immature.

And if we start from a place of emotional immaturity, then it's a lot more palatable.

People are willing to say, okay, that's fair.

I've been called a narcissist, but I can agree.

I'm probably emotionally immature.

And I thought, and I introduced that concept, I want to say before episode five or six.

And so then I say continually, and it's a mouthful of somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder, or they have narcissistic traits or states or tendencies, or they are extremely emotionally immature.

But I made it a point that I'm willing to say all those words because I want that part to be very prominent so we can have the conversation because a narcissist is, and what I say often on the podcast is if you are even asking yourself, am I narcissistic?

You're not because a true narcissist wouldn't do that.

Now there's a true narcissist would also game the system or weaponize a tool.

So they'd say, okay, fine.

Am I a narcissist?

I guess I'm not.

I just asked myself the question.

So there's a whole vibe there that is not being very honest about that introspection.

but then once we establish all right we're all emotionally mature i thought all right i have changed the world but then a mere.

Two years later and 120, or I guess it would be more, three years later, I just, I continue to say emotional immaturity.

And I'm realizing that I would give these examples and people weren't really internalizing that.

They were saying, man, she is that way.

Yeah.

Or she's saying, no, he's very immature.

And then I'm saying, okay, but go back to the part where I'm saying, how about we start from a place where we all are immature.

So there is the baseline, which we will operate today, if that is okay.

Absolutely.

Okay.

So now I agree with all of that as well.

Like that alone right there is something that I can relate to significantly over the course of our relationship, where at the beginning I had, I mean, massive emotional immaturity.

And when all of the narcissism started coming on the scene and everybody was talking about it so much and you saw so much content surrounding it, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm falling into that camp because I did display so many of those behaviors and so many of those things, even some of the subtle gaming it and manipulating it to some extent, because I was intellectual enough to kind of like recognize, but deep down inside, obviously it's really just that emotional immaturity that's taking place.

Yeah.

So I appreciate that too.

And so I think let's talk about now what that really looks like.

And then what really pushed me, I did a two-part series just a few weeks ago on what emotional immaturity looks like as an adult.

And what really brought it home for me was I did a training as a therapist with, it's an online training.

I didn't do it with him directly.

I wish I could, but with a guy named Terry Real.

And he's a therapist that I hear mentioned often.

And then his training was incredible.

And he works a lot with the narcissistic person or the emotionally immature as well.

And I felt a kindred soul there because that's a population I ended up working a lot with are people that are in those relationships.

But he was able to put this concept together that I so appreciated where he said that the things that we did that were adaptive in our childhood to survive basically are now maladaptive as adults.

And it fit right into, oh, those things are emotionally immature, which makes sense because they kept us alive as a kid.

And now we bring them into our adult relationships and they don't work so well.

So, I'm going to quote a cheat sheet that I made after the episodes and I would welcome anybody to reach out to me and I will provide them with this cheat sheet.

It's just a couple of pages.

Um.

And now I'm going to step even further back in a tangent because on this cheat sheet, I quoted a book that I like.

I don't know if either of you are familiar with the, there's a book called The Silent Patient.

It's an excellent book.

It's written by Alex and I will butcher the last name, but I think it's Michelaitis.

But then it's a mental health book and you can tell that it's not a mental health book.

It's a fictional book about a patient in a mental health institution that ends up, I won't spoil it all for it.

It's brilliant.

It's just such a brilliant book.

But you can tell that Alex is either has been a therapist, psychologist, or has been pretty engaged in therapy.

And when I eventually went and tried to find more about the author, it looks like he's just very pro-therapy.

But then he has a follow-up book called The Fury, and it doesn't really focus as much on mental health.

But in the book, he, in his description of therapy through one of the main characters, this is what the character said.

And I think, I'm already telling you, and I think that you must appreciate this quote.

We'll see if you do.

Yeah, Steph might say, that's a snooze.

get on with it, old man.

So the character, okay.

Okay.

So the character says, he says, my therapist was called Mariana.

I remember once she said something chilling and messed up my head for a long time.

Looking back, I think it changed my entire life.

When we're young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated, something happens.

Time stops.

It freezes at that moment.

A version of us is trapped at that age forever.

A frightened child is hiding in your mind.

It's still unsafe.

It's still unheard and unloved.

And the sooner you get in touch with that child and then communicate with them, the more harmonious your life will be.

After all, that's what he grew you for, isn't it?

A strong adult body to look after him and his interests, to take care of him and protect him.

You were meant to liberate him, but instead you ended up becoming his jailer.

And I remember that part hit me so strong where, I mean, yeah, right?

Let that one set in.

I don't know.

What does that feel like or what are you thinking right now?

Just that part of like, you were meant to liberate him, but instead became their jailer was just that res oh my gosh it was with all the inner child work that also speak like that i have done i know it's a we i'm just like speaking for myself and how much of that has been about breaking her free breaking them free and that like integration and that liberation of it and while that's what i'm doing now you can't hear that and realize how much it absolutely was a gelling and then as i progressed it was a i was it was like a gelling with punishment it was like a cruel warden because then i was like so mad for all the choices times babe where like like in the process of you getting to the spot that you're at now and i did the same thing so it's not just like you did this but like the process of recognizing parts work and inner child healing and identifying.

That part existed and you're like, I don't want to deal with it.

I don't want to like, I don't want to like, you would shun her even more.

I preferred her to stay buried in the dungeon.

It's crazy.

It took forever before I could go there.

Cause it was so painful.

So, so much, just all of the reasons, right?

Just, just from that.

I'm glad I knew I wrote the book down.

I'm going to read that soon.

That was so good.

Well, I appreciate it.

When you're saying it's the cruel warden, because that's unfortunately, and I think that just unlocked the whole thing I need to talk about on just kind of spitball with you here is I go back to why so many of us default to shame.

And I'm convinced that that is a childhood defense because when you, for I think most of your listeners are probably going to know that difference between guilt and shame.

Guilt, I did something bad.

Shame, I am bad.

And I find that even as the adult self goes to shame, they still think that they need to beat themselves up in order to improve and even more so with shame.

And I did an episode a while ago where it felt like I was kicking somebody while they were down.

But I said, shame actually is pretty selfish because let's say that somebody says, this is how I feel about the thing you've done.

And that person now realizes the impact that their behavior has had on their partner.

And now they feel worse.

And so then they say, oh my gosh, I am a horrible person.

And now all of a sudden it went back to them.

And the person that just opened up to them now has to say, hey, it's okay.

Now you're then caretaking them.

Yeah, right?

So shame does get you out of a jam, which goes back to this.

Your childhood adaptation is now maladaptive as an adult.

But you can see that it kept you alive as a kid because a lot of times the only way people would get out of something as a little kid was to feel like garbage.

And I think that our own emotionally immature parents, bless their hearts, didn't know what they didn't know.

But they don't think we're taking it serious enough if we don't hang our head and say what a piece of garbage we are then they're saying okay no it's okay it looks like you get it and now they rescue us it's okay champ but i'm glad that you understand what a piece of garbage you are and so that's what we've been modeled now bring that into our adult right craig what are you feeling now oh my goodness i can relate to that right yeah yeah i can feel that and i can also see the way that I parented like that.

And it's like, I don't think you really understand the significance here.

I don't think you really get it.

And then I'm like, okay, maybe you do get it.

Yeah.

And then when they start to feel like, okay.

And then they get up.

Well, come here.

Exactly what you just said.

Damn.

So crazy.

Okay.

And I'm digging this to laying this stuff out this way as well.

So now, yeah, that guilt, that shame.

So childhood adaptation that we bring in.

And so now look at it like, all right, your little kid and this is I and Craig loving some of the content you've been putting out lately about men and feelings because I'm with you.

I think that.

Even a good parent, this is what they did with our feelings.

If I said, man, I just feel so bad about something like, hey, it's not a big deal.

Don't worry about it or get over it.

And then I'm basically feeling like, well, man, I feel like it's a big deal.

So I guess I'm wrong about my feelings and I need somebody over time to fix it for me, to tell me that I'm okay.

So I'm going to go to people and say, man, I think this, or I feel this way, waiting for somebody to say, oh, it's okay.

You don't need to worry about that.

But then if they say, oh, that is bad.

Then I'm like, oh man, now I feel worse.

Then I go to shame.

Gosh, I'm just such a piece of garbage.

Oh, no, you're good.

You're okay.

So we just create this loop where we don't really have to deal with our own emotions.

And I think that's part of this immaturity.

I'm going to call it an emotional immaturity epidemic where then we don't really have to take ownership or accountability of things because that feels really bad.

Our feelings are bad.

So I'm either going to push them away because that worked as a kid.

Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism.

If I can hang in there and say, I didn't do it or the dog did it or whatever, and I hold to my guns, I will get out of it.

And so we learn childhood.

Gaslighting is a childhood defensive mechanism.

Yeah, yeah.

It's built in from the factory.

Now look at that where we bring that into our adulthood.

It was somewhat adaptive as a child, but it's maladaptive in our adult relationships because it does not build connection because there are so many times that our partner knows that we did it.

But we're so good at it.

But I didn't.

And we will hold that to the very end until finally they say okay i mean i guess maybe i am crazy and then to that little kid that just gaslit as an adult who made it out of another one and so then they don't have to think about it anymore but to their partner they're having this continued pattern of okay maybe i maybe i'm going crazy because i just saw this or you did say that or with that gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism now we can get into we're going to get into so many other good versions or examples of emotional immaturity because now I just back to that quote I think it just it's so just beautifully illustrates the process of then emotional development because those moments that are locked in us so let me go back to the feelings emotions so I think our what this talks about is our child our inner child then imprints the memory and or the feeling the feeling more feeling the emotion and then it says okay I don't know what to do with this thing right now.

But then when you grow up, you'll deal with it, right?

Because you'll be a big kid.

So then we grow up and we miss the memo somewhere along the way.

So then here comes that emotion and our inner child is saying, okay, good.

The big kid's going to take over.

But then the big kid is not there.

It's just the little kid and wearing grown up clothes.

And when you look at it that way, then you can start to see our emotional maturity.

So I wrote a couple of examples and these are basically, spoiler alert, these are kind of me is what they are.

But I said, what's fascinating how these frozen moments manifest in adult relationships, the child who learned to people please to avoid conflict becomes the adult who can't set boundaries.

And I look at where I'm at now and I make jokes about it, but I have such a hard time saying no to anyone in my family.

And that's why I work more than I ever thought I would work.

That's why I will just make more money because I don't want to say no if somebody wants something or they need something.

And my joke has lately been that I'm at least learning to pause before I say yes.

So it used to be, Hey dad, can I?

And I'm like, yeah, you bet.

And now I'll at least let them ask the thing and then I'll say yes.

So, I mean, there's growth there, but I still that people pleaser me.

I don't want anybody to feel bad or I don't want them to think something about me.

We'll get to that one in a minute too.

Or the child who learned to shut down emotions becomes the partner who can't express vulnerability.

I was talking with a client recently who they lost their dad early.

They were the youngest of a whole bunch of kids.

And then they had a stepfather that wasn't really engaged and so they just learn that okay my i just need to fade into the background and i will survive now in their adult relationships they're more of that avoidant personality.

And when their partner really wants to know them, they just don't say anything.

And then the partner eventually creates a narrative.

Okay.

I mean, I'll, I guess we'll talk about it later or I must be the problem.

And so you can see where that's unhealthy in the adult relationship, but it was adaptive in their childhood.

So I just think that the, all these immature behaviors that we're doing, we need to thank our inner child when we recognize them because it got us here.

Thanks.

Thanks little buddy.

But we got to let the big kid take over.

but then the big kid doesn't really know what to do, or they're still afraid that they'll do it wrong, which is yet another version of emotional immaturity.

Or this one is me as well.

I put in here the child who needed constant reassurance becomes the adult seeking endless external validation.

Now we're getting into those narcissistic traits and tendencies because I have needed validation my whole life to know, am I okay?

Do you guys like me?

And so I think it's interesting.

I had to be a class officer.

I had to be a class clown.

I had to write a humor column in a newspaper.

I can't just have one podcast.

I got to have a whole bunch of podcasts.

I got to speak everywhere.

And then I didn't realize how much that was parents that weren't really seeing me.

They had a lot of their own stuff going on.

So I'm like, I'm over here.

Hey, if I do really good at sports, will you guys like me?

Okay.

A little bit there.

And then what's really funny to me too, is I was an ultra marathon runner for 25, 30 years.

That's not just a marathon.

Ultra marathons are anything longer than 26 miles.

So I had to do 32 miles and I had to do 50 miles and I had to do a hundred K 62 miles and I had to do a hundred milers.

Then I had to do 24 hour events.

I had to run 125 miles, 133 miles.

And now I realized that was part of that.

When is enough?

Why couldn't I have stopped at a 5k?

That would have been kind of nice.

So it's that I needed endless external validation seeking.

And that has been a lot, I'm sure in my adult relationship because it was just, I now realize I never got enough of it.

And so I've had to really work on that.

That's been a huge thing for me lately too, Tony, is unpacking what that actually looks like in my life, because I can relate so much to it where all of the, like I used to be, I wasn't like the class officer or anything like that, but I was always like the class clown kind of, but like the crazy kid that was trying to seek attention by doing all sorts of like jumping off of things and all these kinds of crazy stunts and all of this stuff to just please see me, please validate me, please tell me that I'm worth something.

And that's consistently continued all the way up and through adulthood up until, I mean, it still happens.

It's not something that just kind of like goes away.

It's still something that I'm constantly having to pay attention to.

Is this act driven by that internal need for wanting to have validation externally for somebody to come along and say, you're actually worth something?

Yeah.

Or is that something that I can learn to continually cultivate and create inside of me?

And I don't think it's a mistake that we've gotten to the point in our life where we're like, creating content and we're on social media and doing all of these things, right?

It's just this massive externalization of that thing where it's like, Hey, universe out there, please like, and follow a chair and tell us that we're worth something.

It's funny.

When I've thought about that too, where I love everything that I'm doing in therapy, the acceptance and commitment therapy has changed my life.

Learning about emotional maturity and validation.

I've learned so much about my ADHD that I had a separate podcast about that for a while.

I had to learn this parenting technique.

I've had to navigate my faith crisis.

And all of those things are part of my practice.

I have content on.

And in my mind, it's just in the past, it was just, no, I just want to help people.

But yeah, I've thought over the last little while that, or if people agree with me, then I must be okay.

I must be doing it right, which goes back to one of the most core, fundamental, emotionally immature.

I don't know what i'm calling them characteristics though is that black or white thinking and what i'd love to do is take you through a bunch of these that that i'll give you the kid example and then we can look at how it shows up in adult relationships and i would love to know what comes up for you there if you have examples of that yourselves i don't know you're not game like we're gonna check every box oh i hope so i mean i there's a part of me that thinks that if people don't then it's funny this is why i think that the black and white or all or nothing thinking is at the core because it really.

It's the, there's a right way and a wrong way.

There is a, I don't want to say the wrong thing because black and white, all or nothing, good, bad, right, wrong.

And so children, they see the world in absolutes.

So things are all good or they're all bad.

So in adults, it ends up showing up as ultimatums or labeling partners as always doing something or never doing something.

And then that bleeds into the relationship itself.

And it cycles between when my spouse is doing things i like then i idealize the relationship and then when they do something i don't like then i the i devalue the relationship and so we get into this mix where we're just trying to manage each other's emotions to get the validation and where i see this happen a lot lately because i've been bringing this stuff into my couples therapy a lot is someone will express themselves they'll do it in a good healthy way i know last time i was on i talked about my beloved four pillars of a connected conversation and we're showing up and we're trying to be genuinely curious and all those things, but the other person just kind of shuts down.

And now I can look over and say, Hey, what's going on here?

And usually they'll say, I don't know.

I just, I don't know.

And now I can say, all right, child, little child inside of you, are you worried you're going to say the wrong thing?

And most every time I'm not a big all or nothing guy, but most every time it's, yeah, I don't want to say it in the wrong way.

And that's where I'm saying, Oh, okay.

So this is your inner child that, that is worried about getting it wrong.

And the very first person that I brought this up with, she was awesome.

And she talked about getting in trouble.

And I think it was like violin lessons or piano lessons as a kid.

And then she had learned that then she, if she just hunkered down, she would eventually, after being told that she did things wrong or bad, the right way to do things.

And then she would then echo it.

And then she would get the praise and get out of the situation.

So she had learned that when things got intense, if I just hunkered down, eventually I'll be told what I need to say, what the right thing will be.

So you see that black or white thinking and so many things will go back to that, that I don't want to say the wrong thing.

But I like this idea.

There's this spot in there, Tony, where you were mentioning like the, because I relate so much to that black and white thinking.

And it was a big chunk of what I had a really good therapist that I worked with a few years ago during COVID and everything like that.

And that's oftentimes the thing that he would always bring me back to is it's can't it be both, can't it be both, can't it be both.

like this mantra that he kept repeating over and over again.

And every time he would say it, I would get so pissed off at him.

And I'm like, yes, yes, it can be both.

Fine.

Okay.

Yes, yes.

Fine.

It can be both.

But I didn't pick up on like when we are in activation together, like when we're fighting and arguing with each other, we will very much use that language of you always do this or you never do this.

And I haven't put that piece together that that's the manifestation of that same dynamic.

Cause we, I mean, we do that.

I was thinking, I was thinking about how you do that a lot.

You were thinking how I do that.

I was, it's funny.

Like, I wonder what part of this is.

Cause I was like, Oh man, we used to do that so much.

And what actually started helping with that is I would tell you, I'm like, you always, or you never.

And you were like, I never.

And then just like the way I was like, okay, actually you do it a lot.

You do do it a lot.

And just, you're not doing it right now about this, but you like category, I can't think of the word.

Categorized or?

Yeah, all of the nevers.

Like when you're in that space, your mind isn't looking to bring peace in that situation or look at the full perspective.

It's looking to validate your emotional or your reaction, your feeling that.

It's trying to prove you right.

So you're not able to quite see that and you're only looking for, let me show you why I'm right right now.

In a deep core level and it's so to be able to catch that and go oh wait a minute okay.

And also i want to say before we go into this and all these like our listeners that are and your listeners that are like oh my gosh i'm checking all these boxes it's like how could we not oh it's okay it's okay yeah definitely one of the i'd say the main feedback and i've received more feedback from these this these two episodes i've done around this than i have in a long time.

And a lot of it is I so see this, I identify, and it's basically saying, now what do I do?

And I got to throw a part three out there and say, oh, my bad.

I just think it's cool to know right now.

We'll get to what you do with it later.

Because I love this path of enlightenment of where we didn't know what we didn't know.

Now we know, and we're not exactly sure what to do, or we do sometimes.

And then that's probably where we'll spend the most time.

It's frustrating because sometimes we wish we just didn't know.

And then eventually you'll get to this part where I do whatever I need to do more than I don't and then the last part of that is I have become it is and and so we're in that that awkward part right now where oh my gosh now I know and what's.

Interesting is then the little child's going to come in and hang her head.

Oh man, I do that stuff.

But I just wanted to be, oh, check it out.

I totally do that.

That is a thing.

How cool is that?

Now I know, but I guess I'm trying to sell that.

So I like that you're saying that.

And I want to say too, the all or nothing black or white thinking, I have to tell you what that looks like from a couple's therapist.

If I'm watching the couple on the couch in front of me, and I brought awareness to this for a long time, because I would say, don't use all or nothing statements, because the second that the, well, the say, the husband says, and you never say that you love me, the wife is not leaning in with empathy going, wow, that would be really difficult.

If to you, it feels like I never, they, she's sitting, you watch her kind of tune out a little bit.

Cause she's thinking of, okay, no, I said it yesterday.

And almost like she wants to raise her hand.

Hey, hang on.

Let me, if I can just correct that, then we can move on.

But that's not the point.

All the time.

Okay.

As soon as she'll say something along those lines of you never do this thing.

And I'm sitting there thinking, I'm like, okay, literally I did it yesterday.

I did it like 15 minutes before we had this conversation.

I do this thing on the regular.

Do you know what I mean?

Whatever it is, right?

There's so many different examples of it.

Well, then we get to go into victim mode and go, I can't believe you don't think I ever do that.

And now I just made it about me and that will get us out in the weeds.

So even in just basic couples therapy, I'm trying to bring awareness to that of even just changing that language to, and I don't, and i don't feel like you often do this or i don't think you often do this or i don't think that you it seems like it has been a long time since you said this versus the you haven't said this even if you give a time frame that's another one too you haven't said this in years then the person's immediately going through i don't think it's been years and you just watch that vibe from the couple's therapist.

View and you know that at that moment, we've kind of lost the momentum.

I really like that you're bringing that up.

So that's just the first one, the black or white thinking, all or nothing thinking.

The second one is my favorite because as I was creating the content, I realized, oh man, this makes so much sense.

So I don't really like opening my mail at all.

I don't like looking at my bank account.

And as long as nobody comes and gets me, it seems like it's okay.

But I'm not going to lie, I've had to pay some extra taxes.

Currently, I've had to pay lots of late registration fees for vehicles.

And I've got a lot of things set up on auto pay, but other things I don't and my stack of mail will be insane.

And I'm sure I'm the only person that's ever dealt with that.

Craig?

You're not.

That'd be me.

Oh, that's you, Steph.

I love it.

Okay.

It's so bad that I have several emails, not because I really need them, but because I'm like, okay i can't handle that one anymore i'll just start a new one oh that's even better this will be for only my important ones now there we go i love that i don't get rid of them they just have like oh my gosh okay so on it but okay this is the best so this one is the it's the magical thinking and welcome to the world of magical thinking because this one it's and this is uh we'll talk we'll deal with it later the we'll talk about the difficult things later that's magical or i will And what it's about is that when you're a kid, kids believe that their thoughts can influence their external reality.

And it's in so many different ways.

If I don't leave my stuffed animals in a good position on my bed when I go to school, then they might get disappointed when by the time I get home or I was listening to this podcast, this guy, Derek Thompson, I really like him.

He's such an intellectual.

But he just mentioned this the other day where he said up until his 20s, he thought if I wear a certain coat.

Type of sock that I'll have a better day or I'll meet somebody.

And I do believe that we probably all still have bits of this magical thinking.

Oh, I still definitely do.

Okay.

Yeah.

And there's parts of me that I'm like, I'm not letting that go.

Oh, good.

And that's what I'm going to say.

Acceptance of that.

Absolute acceptance of that, I think is one of the best things is it goes back to the first thing we talked about.

It isn't bad.

It's not, there's not a bad or good or an all or nothing or a black or white.

I just want to say, oh, that is, it just is.

And we might even believe that it really does lead to magical outcomes.

And that's okay, because who am I to tell somebody that that isn't true?

So, I just like bringing awareness to this.

But what is fascinating about this is, and this is where this made so much sense to me, is that we're supposed to grow out of that to a point because we have this like cause and effect relationship that is supposed to come to us as we emotionally mature.

But the cause of me not opening my mail has absolutely led to the effect of me paying late fees but i have not done anything about it so i haven't that cause and effect relationship hasn't been enough to cause me to become more emotionally mature on that and i've even noticed that after i put this content together i did deal with some things some irs things that i just, kept kicking the can down the road and it turned out they were worse than i had anticipated so So then you don't even get the Disney movie version where, and it turned out it wasn't so bad and I actually made money.

Oh no, it was worse, but it's part of being an adult apparently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, we had to deal with all of that.

Like, I still, like Steph was saying, I mean, I still have a lot of it.

And I mean, honestly, Tony, the idea of like magical thinking is something that we have come to embrace at this point in our life from like this perspective of very much cultivating and creating that type of energy.

Yeah.

The innocence of childhood and leaning into it.

And then also the missing component for us was the mature adult part of it, where like part of the reasons why in a healthy environment, the child can have magical thinking and live in fantasy because all of their other needs are being taken care of by healthy parents.

Right.

Yeah.

They're in that space, like providing the safe container for that magic to exist.

And I love that.

And we just had to learn how to do both at the same time.

So like we still live in this kind of like, I don't want to say a fantasy place, but like we were driving around.

So we're in Tennessee, right?

And one of the things that we did not expect when we moved here was lightning bugs.

So there's fireflies.

I was literally about to say lightning bugs because I grew up there and now I wish I would have because that would have been magical, right?

Yeah.

It's still magical.

It's still magical, Tony.

Like it's the time of year right now where they're coming out.

So we're driving at night, we're coming home and we kind of live in the woods.

And so suddenly it's like the whole woods are just lighting up with fireflies as you're driving along.

It's beautiful.

Like, it's amazing.

And we're sitting there like we live in a magical forest.

This is a magical fairy forest that we live in.

The proof is evident all around us, right?

Yeah.

We're missing that component of the healthy, mature adult that is able to make sure that that child still has that safe container to play and to be a kid in.

So that's the kind of part that we were that we were missing and that we've learned how to kind of cultivate.

We're giving it to ourselves now.

Yeah.

We're like, damn right, it's a magical fairy forest.

Exactly.

But then if that magical fit, then if I was waiting for the fairy to come pay my taxes, that might be a little extreme.

Yeah.

Unless there's a fairy listening that would like to alleviate me of my taxes.

Exactly.

My tax debt.

So I've been on two cruises in my entire life and I loved them both.

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I guess you're not holding that in your hand, but regardless, it is a perfect reset.

And I also absolutely love what I do as a therapist.

So when you put me on a cruise with people who would like to talk about things like mental health or parenting or relationships or faith crisis or emotional immaturity or ADHD, that along with the soft serve is my dream vacation.

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And I skipped the whole, the biggest part of this magical thinking is because I have a one-year-old grandson now that is that's why we moved to Arizona where we did and in it this was around Easter when I was putting this stuff together and he really did do this thing where he had this big part of an egg and he put it over his face and it was the first time where he did the whole he disappeared like how cool was that right and then when he and then all of a sudden and we're feeding into it and that's my best that's the best kind of magical thinking where he's literally like oh my gosh I just disappeared these guys can't see me they're asking where I'm, and then i pulled this eggshell away and and now they now apparently have appeared that's that is.

Amazing right yes yes oh so so the magical thing and what i and i really like this idea of i can identify this one in so many areas of my life though and part of it is the i'll do it later at this point in my life that is magical because will i um if i remember right i'll get to it later and then poof well and i'm glad you brought that up that's right i think even on one of the those episodes I talked about the, well, I don't need to write it down.

I now realize magical thinking because then it's just a crap shoot.

If I happen to remember, so that one's difficult.

This one is, this one's, this one is big.

We're going to have fun with this one.

I call it emotional reasoning.

So children believe if I feel it, it must be true.

So the classic is the kid saying, stop yelling at me.

You know, you're not yelling, but they feel like you are yelling at them.

It is true now you need to stop yelling at me and what does the parent eventually do is i will show you yelling and then they will yell.

Not our finest moments as parents.

Now, as an adult, I feel abandoned.

Therefore, you are abandoning me.

But that is something I feel.

And so now, and I like to slow this one down so much because if I get this in the office, and I am not even saying that there's not truth in this, but I think it's a great place to start from a, okay, check it out.

I feel abandoned.

Now I want, I believe you are the one that is abandoning me.

Because if you look at it that way as adults, then it's basically saying, so I need you to make me feel better about a thing that I think that you're doing, but you are not on board that you are doing it.

The reality is you might not be, but I don't feel good.

So I need you to make me feel better about this thing.

I think you're doing that you're not sure if you are.

So start dancing.

And then if you got a guy who has good old nice guy syndrome, or he doesn't want to get in trouble, or he's worried that if I don't get this right, then she'll never want to have sex with me.

I mean, I see that one so often.

And he's like, okay, I'll do whatever.

So now we're talking his energy's off.

He's not being authentic.

And most likely he's not going to know how to make her feel better.

And then she gets to say, okay, you obviously don't care about me.

And deep inside, she's probably internalizing the, man, what is wrong with me?

Am I unlovable?

So that is one I see so often.

And that I just want to say, man, bless both their hearts.

That game's rigged from an emotional immaturity standpoint.

That one is not.

So then that doesn't go well.

So now in comes the all kind of black or white thinking, man, I did it wrong.

What was the right way that I should have done that when there wasn't a right way because the whole game was rigged?

Or here comes magical thinking, well, let's go into our bunkers for a few days and then poke our heads out and say, hey, are we good?

Yeah, we're good.

And then we get to that point where that's just the absence of bad.

That isn't good.

And we do that long enough.

And now you've got yourself a pretty crummy marriage because you're basically got two little five-year-olds that are trying to pretend that they're adults.

Let's get started.

Yeah, this one's hard for me because a big part of healing for me involved validating what I was feeling, making sure that what was coming up for me was being validated, was being legitimized, was being seen, was being heard, all of those things.

But the recognition of, I mean, yes, beautiful, paint the perfect picture.

We're so emotionally mature and healed that I'm doing all of that internal validation for myself.

So I never need any of the external validation from somebody else.

But that's just not the case.

And I think even like in a perfectly healed version, I still don't think it's the case.

I think there's some healthy validation that needs to take place externally.

Like we need somebody to reflect back.

I agree.

Yeah.

And that was a big thing.

go ahead.

Oh, well, I feel so bad.

I, I should, if we were in the therapy office, I would want you to go all through this, but I worry at times that now it's somebody listening is going to start going into the yeah, buts.

And so I want to rescue them for a brief second and say what Craig is saying is so spot on because in my part two, I came back around to this one because I'd gotten some feedback from somebody that said, Hey, how can you talk about making people feel so seen as highly sensitive people or empaths?

And now you're saying, Oh, it's not real.

And I thought, And oh my gosh.

Literally the listener, bless their heart, went to the black or white, all or nothing thinking.

Because what I was saying is, oh, start from this place of, and I said, please trust your gut.

Please start from a place of, I'm going to listen to me, but just be aware that now I can understand that this is how I feel, 100% how I feel.

But my immature version is, so it is true.

So you need to fix it.

And what I've had just some beautiful experiences with in the couple's field with this now is, and I've got one right now that's going to sound so simple and it is so beautiful, but a couple where the wife was saying something similar, I feel this way, therefore, I think you are doing it.

We identified this version of immaturity.

So then I was able to say, okay, so what would you need actually right now in order to feel like he cares in this scenario?

And what I have found, the number one answer is she says, oh, I don't actually know.

I just want him to make me feel better.

And this was good because I've worked with this couple for quite a while.

So then he didn't say, well, what am I supposed to do?

Then he said, okay, I actually feel a little more validation here as well, because I'm not, I've tried to just do things that I think might work.

And then when they don't, I beat myself up.

I can notice you pull away.

So what is so cool about that is now I'm normalizing that, okay, this is beautiful.

So, yeah, you don't know because their immature version of me just said, I don't know, just make it make me feel better.

Parent, mom, dad.

And so now we get to say, well, we can now just start.

I mean, I don't want to say throwing noodles at the wall, but let's start somewhere now.

And so they started with a simple, how about for the next week, just before you go to work, just come tell me that you're leaving and you love me and you're going to miss me.

And he just said, oh, I can do that.

So they did it.

And again, what I love about this, it was a similar version of the tax conversation I was having earlier.

They came back in, it was probably a couple of weeks later and I said, how'd it go?

And then they both said, it was okay, but it wasn't the, oh my gosh, Now we're so connected.

And what is so good about that is they didn't even know what they needed.

They didn't even know that she didn't even know that this was me kind of throwing an impossible task at him.

And he didn't really, well, he felt like he understood that, oh, I can never get this right.

And now they said, okay, now we're working on this together.

Now we can try.

And she had to have the courage to say, yeah, actually, that's not it.

But thank you so much for showing up that way.

And he had to have the courage also to say, okay, this, yeah, it isn't what I thought it would be because this gets into the immaturity of I'll be happy when, you know, if only in my relationship, he told me I love you and kissed me before he left every day, I bet you I'd be happy.

And so then she can now think, well, we never got to that point.

Well, now we did it.

But you see now where they start growing together in an emotionally mature way where they realized, oh, maybe that wasn't it.

But it wasn't like, okay, now what are we going to do?

Now it's what's next.

Let's figure this out.

Tony, it's so fun.

Go ahead.

It's so fun talking to you because I'm like, baby, we're doing so good.

It's just, it's also like the going back before, because there will be happy when is like, absolutely.

Cause that was so much there, but to bring it back just a little bit and how important that is and realizing, oh, I don't even know because when we're going through a space and you had a childhood or however it happened where your needs were so invalidated and you weren't allowed to have needs.

So you learned how to shut them off so significantly that when the smoke clears and you can like, oh, okay, what do I need?

You literally have no idea.

And so to get to that, where you start flexing that muscle and start practicing, it's almost exciting.

It's like, I need a drink of water right now just to know what you actually need.

And it's for you as opposed to, I need to know what I need to be so that you still love me, so that I'm safe, so that I'm still chosen, so that I'm not hurt, so that you don't abandon or abuse, like all of the ways that it can come up in that space to where your needs turn into what you can do for the other person as opposed to what you need.

So that is such a crucial point to get somebody flexing that muscle of what do I actually need for me?

What is that healthy space?

I love that you can get them to that point.

That's such an exciting space and I feel like such a close connection with that one especially and I feel like you might as well just because there was like my need I had no idea yeah I had no idea like taking care of your own needs as a child growing up all of your needs right physical emotional like even like coming home from school and nobody's home and you got to take care of what you're eating and all these kind of things yeah and then yeah Somebody asks you, especially when you get into the deeper space of like, when emotions start coming into play and learning how to regulate your nervous system.

And it's like, well, what do I need?

What do I need that's going to serve me and be healthy for me rather than all of these crappy coping mechanisms that I've used to satiate and satisfy and soothe myself?

And it's like, well, I don't need those.

I don't know what I actually do need.

It's been an interesting thing that we've had to learn.

And I love that you're bringing it up and highlighting it again.

And I'm just like, cause you're, you're putting words to some of the things that I think we've done, not just subconsciously, but like in this ramshackle way of just trying to figure out how to do this thing together, trying to heal together.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Well, what I like that you're saying that is, is it further, I think validates that it is here.

I'm going to go all or nothing black or white.

It is the right thing to do, but you start to see, and I love this concept.

If somebody is spiritual, if they're religious, if, if you've got all roads lead to God or the universe or the great magnet or the creator or the all through life, all areas of psychology, discipline, meditation, yoga, we're all trying to figure out how to evolve or how to become our best selves.

And you start seeing similarities in all the different teachings in different ways.

And then there are people that are finding that, like you say, this ramshackle way on their own.

And I just love this concept of when you start to see similar things, similar patterns in different disciplines then i think oh i think we're on to something i think this is part of that whole whatever collective consciousness or the all or we're gonna figure this stuff out and because i look at where we're at with emotions now and here we are some older people talking about we're figuring out our emotions now and i have to accept the fact that and i'm a therapist 20 years of this and i'm now understanding all emotions i got okay i got it and and teaching my kids now in my mind i think we're probably a couple generations still away from where it is It's just our emotions are welcome as a child because it's going to take work.

Rather than intellectualizing everything and trying to think about everything, just the opportunity to express and feel and be in emotion.

Yeah, and that's why I really am a book project about the emotional immaturity epidemic.

And I think where the unfortunate part is, is you can see emotional immaturity and maybe currently the political climate or you see it, it does cause people to rise in the ranks in in some industries.

And so the unfortunate part is I do think and maybe we can look at polarity here where we can see the extreme emotional immaturity.

And that can also be our muse or mirror to help us understand that.

And I think being able to see this is it helps me reflect better and be a better version of myself.

But I hope that then being able to put words and examples and meaning to this, you can start to see, oh, that's just a little kid in a suit.

That's needs control.

And there, and then, and it actually, the next two that we're going to talk about external validation, dependence, and difficulty with accountability.

Now, those are two, we're talking about this all or nothing, black or white thinking.

And that one, if you have a different opinion than me, then you must think yours is right.

And mine is wrong.

I mean, that's at the core of so much of this.

And now if you turn into that external validation dependence, kids need constant reassurance from their caregivers.

So in adults, then it leads to excessive approval seeking, and then in difficulty maintaining any kind of worth without others telling you you're of worth.

So if you already have this all or nothing black or white thinking, and then you need someone to tell you you're okay, and now we get into difficulty with accountability, kids instinctively protect themselves by denying responsibility.

In adults, it manifests as blame shifting, gaslighting, defensiveness, and just an inability to offer apology, to take ownership of anything.

So you start putting a big old combo pack of this together, And you can see where the more emotionally immature someone is, the more control that they can actually have in certain situations.

And why when somebody then tries to push back against that person, then it just flares up even more with the immature because it's now you really think I'm wrong because you think you're right versus what if we just were both allowed to have our own thoughts and opinions?

And then we could approach this with no one's let's say nobody's wrong currently.

It just is and let's have a conversation about it and you can see maybe where there's just so many layers that are that are in the way with extreme emotional immaturity especially in adults who have power money status it's so difficult it makes me think about the like the content that we were talking at the beginning the one that that we were yeah i don't need to explain you know the piece of content that we were talking about the woman flipping cars right Yeah.

Yeah.

It's such a good example of like, everybody is in there arguing their point, me included.

Like I'm in there as well, trying to be like, no, look at it this way.

You're not seeing this part.

I'm right.

You're wrong.

And they're like, no, I'm right.

And you're wrong.

And it's just this echo chamber back and forth of people essentially saying, and I think that that is like a really good example of what's taking place on a really big scale, right?

Everybody thinks that they're right.

And if I'm right, then that means that somebody else has to be wrong, as opposed to just existing in the space where that was a really big thing that we had to come to terms with, not just like internally within our relationship back and forth with each other, where we really saw it play out and we're still seeing it play out because it's a hard space for us, is when it comes to parenting, where there's definitely a parent that's right and there's definitely a parent that's wrong.

And we both want to be on the side of the parent that's right.

And we see our actions so clearly from that lens, which then we take the defensive point of view, which means, wait, if I'm right, then you must be wrong.

Right.

And that's our default.

Yeah.

And I think that's really programmable from childhood.

I want to pause.

I totally want to pause.

I wanted some help on this one.

It's one of the things that like came up with that and it's shifted as at first, just if you can help me unpack this one a little bit.

And when you had the parent, one parent is right.

One parent is wrong.

When we got together, I wasn't thinking I was right.

And you were wrong.

I was thinking Craig was right.

And I was wrong.

Okay.

Okay.

Your way.

Okay.

Your way.

And now Now I got to the point where I'm like, I was right.

And so it's that thing of I went for the complete flip for a while.

I'm like, no, I'm right.

And you're wrong.

And now we're working on the I'm right from my point of view.

Yes.

Not that I'm like the correct way, but what I'm feeling and what my and you are also.

And it was the realization of like you said, like we're both coming from a space of love.

But I just I want to speak to that part because there was so much invalidation of myself.

And I didn't trust myself or my instincts or everything.

I just thought whatever Craig said was the right way to do it, which also puts, fuck ton of pressure.

It's much easier, much easier, babe.

There's no pressure to get it right.

And when you don't get it right, you know, it was like, well, what are you doing?

You were supposed to get it right.

You're the one that knows.

So like, what is like, yeah.

Okay.

Such a good question and such good awareness there.

And I will, shockingly, I will tangent a tiny bit.

So now let's step into the, I hope a lot of people navigate a faith journey.

Formerly known as faith crisis, also known as faith deconstruction, faith transition.

And a lot of that comes from maybe we'll call it higher demand religion.

So when those typically start with, there is a right way.

So what does that insinuate?

That everything else is the wrong way.

The wrong way.

And so then when you have a thought that doesn't go align, isn't aligned with the right way, then you are wrong, but you think it.

So now I am bad because I think this thing that's not the right thing.

So now let's introduce the concept of duality in adult human beings.

I want to watch R-rated movies.

I want to do things on a Sunday.

I want to experiment with libations.

Now we know that those are wrong.

So I am bad, but I want to do them.

So I'm going to do them.

So I must hide them.

And so then now all of a sudden I need to overcompensate because I want the external validation.

I need people to think I'm good because I know I'm bad.

So if I do these performative things, then I'll get the validation.

And then I will know I must not be that bad because I'm getting the validation.

So I'm good.

Now enter your kids.

Now your kids come in and now we understand.

And this one breaks my heart because my kids are just being kids, but I want them to do it the right way because that'll make me look better.

And it will also cover up the things that I'm doing that are bad.

And so then as my, so I need to make sure my kids are doing the right thing well they want validation that kid gets their whole sense of self from external validation so they are also wanting to listen to certain music or wear certain clothing or whatever but they know it's bad.

So they're bad and they want to do the right thing.

And so you've got both adult and kid are neither one developing their own sense of self.

And so what that so you can already we could talk about what that looks like.

But I think what's so difficult there, too, is what it teaches over time is I also can get can shed my accountability because I'm trying to do the right thing.

And if that person says that I'm doing now, enter in magical thinking.

And this is where I think that I'll go with God, the universe, the creator there.

I think they're going to be on board with me on this one, where if all of a sudden I'm saying, man, you know, I, why didn't I get that job?

Or why did my, this person get angry with me?

Cause I don't want to take ownership.

I didn't do anything wrong.

And so then it's like, man, God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Why are you punishing me now?

And I think God's up there going, Hey, that's not on me.

Like I'm, you're good.

And, you know, and in the spiritual realm, and then when I speak on this stuff, I talk about whether it's literal or figurative, if you look at the concept of differentiation, I'm going to say that the idea of God, the parent, again, the creator, the universe, is got to be the most differentiated entity known to humankind because they're good.

So, then they are not getting enmeshed with, if I do my own thing, then they don't view them as a bad parent.

And that's where, if you look, I love this concept, whether in whatever spiritual realm you're looking at, where if the God you believe in is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and their love is unconditional in the story.

So now if I think they're mad at me, that's a me thing.

They're up there going like, you're good.

So even in, I was thinking about this recently in the concept in the Christian realm of repentance.

I like the version of that that means turn to.

So if I'm turning to a dad that's, you're good.

And their love is unconditional it was the same yesterday today and tomorrow then it turns out i'm good i'm not doing it wrong and then i am beating myself up and then i'm turning to this secure attachment with the divine the divine that is always and i'll go all or nothing you're going to say you're good because what if that inherent goodness is within us and it turns out that our job is to just go through life and then unlock and unpack that because then we won't need people to tell us we're okay.

We are okay.

And anyway, that went a place I didn't think it would go.

But anyway, I just love that concept so much.

So to get back stuff at the, so now I think that I look at that as I call it in this document or in the podcast, poor emotional boundaries, because kids naturally merge their identity with their caregiver.

So in the relationships, it manifests as taking responsibility for others' emotions or handing our emotions over to somebody else.

And this one is so wild to me now because I have recognized, and this is one of those where you start sounding kind of like a jerk when you step away from it.

But okay, how many times have we said things like, yeah, I didn't want to say this thing because I didn't want that person to feel bad.

Or I didn't do this because I didn't want them to think that I was a certain way.

So what I'm actually doing is I'm taking responsibility for their emotions.

I have merged, you know, I have these poor emotional boundaries and I've merged my sense of self into someone else's.

But there's a couple of things happening.

One, I kind of, this is why I went on that one tangent.

I actually then don't have to take ownership or accountability for my own emotions or my own life for that matter and also i'm not even letting that person have their own emotional experience so if i don't want my kid to feel bad so therefore i'm going to pay for all their things, They may become the world's greatest payer of things.

They may be a financial wizard, but I am limiting that.

I'm enabling the potentially negative behavior because I don't want to feel bad and I don't want them to think that I don't care.

I will rest my case.

Yeah.

Building a lot of resentments, hindering and avoiding accountability.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then so when you're like, oh, he is right.

I worry sometimes that that is the and I probably need to come up with better positive words and poor emotional boundaries, but challenging emotional boundaries, because that's one that I think that we learned to fold into other people, because if I think that I'm probably wrong, and that's why I was going back to this, there is a right way and a wrong way.

If I'm used to thinking my own way, but I know it's wrong, then I'm going to default to the way that the person that seems more confident or whatever that looks like thinks.

And I shift that.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

I'm going to do it again.

Like I've shifted.

I've caught that now.

And I have a practice.

You've talked about the pause is when I'm feeling a really strong emotional charge.

And this is like something and we talk about it.

It's not always like, hey, let's sit down and talk.

We debate about it.

We argue about it.

And then we get to that point.

when I start to feel like he is right in this space, like sometimes he feels like I'm, or we come to this space, this middle ground where neither is right or wrong.

We just understand where the other person was coming from and we see that.

But if I start to feel that, then I check myself.

And I'm like, even if you're right, I need to regulate, even if you're right.

Because I can't go to that.

That's what I used to do.

So I'll have to get to my own space and be calm and then find that.

is it's okay to be wrong.

I'm fine with, but I'm very cautious about jumping to making myself wrong now.

Yeah.

And so I give myself the time to make sure, okay.

I'm not, I'm not gaslighting myself and invalidating.

Yeah.

There's, it's such a interesting dance learning how to do all this.

And I would love your, I would love your guys.

I trust you.

You're yeah, but I really currently, and I also, I think that life has this whole pendulum effect.

So I go from overly kind and nice guy to then it's almost like you have to go all the way over here to, Oh, I don't care.

The kind of like a jerk, then you're going to find the middle ground of calm confidence.

And I think that is happening in most everything.

so many things so i am currently in this place of oh even when somebody says and it's okay i realized i was wrong i don't i personally still don't i don't want that energy or it's just it just oh that was where i was at or that was the way that i viewed things and now i'm able to take a different view or a different approach because i think that that right the wrong the word wrong still implies that something is wrong with me or i was doing it the wrong way but this is where i go back to the acceptance and commitment therapy stuff where I am the only me ever that has walked the face of the earth.

And the amount of variables that go into every single moment as me is mind blowing.

Nature, nurture, birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, fears, dreams.

You've got to go to the bathroom before a podcast starts, you name it.

All that stuff is at play, hypothetically.

And so that's what makes me me.

And that's what makes me feel the way I do and think the way I do.

So I'm still, I'm of the mindset that I will stay on this pendulum swing of, so it isn't wrong.

It just is.

But this is where I've been talking lately.

When I go back this concept of different differentiation is my job in life is to interact with other humans to learn about myself i can maintain connection i'm going to learn about my autonomy is i want people to go from i don't know what if they started from like a 30 solid 70 flexible sense of self where i need everybody to tell me what to do where now i want i want to i've been telling my clients lately i want this formula to be more like 90 solid 10 flexible self so i'm good.

I'm good but at 10 i'm gonna leave 10 open because i want to be the best me i want to be able to self-confront so then when somebody's saying i think this then i'm like going to start from a place of i'm good because i am me and this is the way i think and feel and it's the first time it's me literally right now so it just is i'm not broken i am a human being and so then but i'm leaving 10 open to then say that is a very good point so i'm going to take that data and i'm going to i'm going to take a look at that because i'm going to and there's a potential i may integrate what your view is or and that's where that takes some maturity because I think it has to come from a place that there isn't a right or wrong but I want to know you and I want you to know me and then through that interaction I may learn that I am even more solid with my thought on this or I might integrate some of your thoughts on there and then I am so grateful for our shared experience and now I want to find more.

I would argue that this, like what we're talking about right now, this is the thing that was in some ways, one of the hardest things that we had to learn how to do in our relationship.

But it also came with the biggest benefit, like being able to just take right and wrong off the table and no longer look at it from that lens.

And now it's just looking at it from the lens and the perspective of like, I want to hear what you are feeling.

I want to hear what you're experiencing.

I want to see the world through your eyes.

So that I have a better understanding of who you are.

And that has nothing to do with a decision-making process of who's going to make the right decision here, who's going to make the wrong decision.

It's more of just, I want to know how you tick.

I want to know how you work.

I want to know how you feel.

I want to know how you think.

I really want to learn about you.

And that has been like...

As we're sitting here talking about it and i've been thinking about it i'm like it was one of the hardest things for us to do and i think it just gave us the biggest like it helped our relationship so much it brought us closer together it really cultivated and created the bond that we really have today because we got rid of that idea that like my way or the highway do you know what i mean it's like i honestly i don't know what i'm doing over here 90 of the time and you know so yeah i think that it's really been a huge deal for us.

I'm glad that we're talking about it.

I'm really grateful.

And it sounds, and that is, and that's real intimacy, the courage to know somebody and the courage to be known.

I think we talked about that the first time I came on here and what I love about it.

And I'm writing a lot now about an upcoming episode on curiosity and genuine curiosity, because already I think people don't have enough curiosity.

And then when they do start to be curious, it's basically this, Hey, why are you being so dumb?

Well, it is a question.

technically i'm being curious but it needs to be tell me about you help me understand i want to know more but it can't be with this little subtle part of you that is ready to then okay see that's where you're wrong or but i don't think that's the right way to do it because then now i'm not going to feel safe opening up to that person anymore unless i become the most differentiated human which is possible because then when they're saying well i think you're wrong then i'm like check in.

I'm good.

And then I can say, well, tell me more about why you think I'm wrong because I'm good, but I do want to understand.

But you'll typically find that if you are in that position, that is that person is not saying, oh, well, let me do some self-confrontation.

No, because they're doing this poor emotional boundaries.

They're saying, but I need you to know you're wrong because then that will help me feel better.

That means I'm right.

We go right back to the black or white thinking, the all or nothing.

These are so good, Tony.

Yeah.

These are so, so good.

that tell me more that was our gateway I feel way back when and because you didn't have to be emotionally right you didn't have to like have all these things it was just you would say that I would say that it was sick of sometimes like even tell me more internally you're having all of those parts that's like fuck this I don't know what she's saying.

Externally I'm just like, Tell me more.

I'm just doing my best to hear you and listen more and more and more.

So good.

Well, and I think that'll lead into, and I had a, in this document I can share, I had the, well, this next one I'll do, that was all the ones I covered.

And then in the next episode, I covered several more, but I think these are the basis of so much of our immaturity, the way that we show up.

But this one I think is so fascinating.

It's mind reading.

I mean, it is children assume others see the world exactly as they do.

So then adults pattern this by assuming our partner's intentions.

And that's, I see that so often.

Well, obviously, this is what you meant.

Well, of course, everybody knows this.

And what is so interesting there is it goes back into, I, and this is when I talk about my four pillars, I've got a pre-pillar, which is from Marshall Rosenberg's book, Nonviolent Communication.

And it's the separating observation from judgment, because I am observing you doing this and I'm making a judgment.

And so once we do that, now, if I say, I want to know you, but I've already made a judgment on what I'm observing, then if you don't tell me exactly what, validate what I think you're doing, then I can also say you're not even being honest with yourself.

And so this mind reading, somebody gets home and they're angry and then they walk past their partner and they don't say anything.

That partner gets to say, okay, well, obviously they don't care.

And so now they can shut down.

They can tell themselves or they can come into the therapy office and say, well, what am i supposed to do everybody knows that when you come home you say hi everybody knows that it's obvious so they should be reading my mind and know that i am hurt now and then that person is thinking okay everybody knows if the universal sign for if you come in and you're angry that you need some time to cool off or everybody knows that you need to go say to them hey what's going on so we just have these expectations that we can read each other's minds we all think the same way and boy we don't.

Do you know what's so funny?

Like emotional maturity, everything you're describing, like the opposite side of all of these things is kind of just like really basic, easy, rational way of looking.

Like it's just giving everybody the benefit of the doubt.

You're self-included.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like, sometimes we make mistakes.

Sometimes these things happen.

Like we're all just human.

It's all just really rational stuff of once we get down to actually listening and understanding one another, you're like, oh, that makes total sense why you thought that.

It does.

total sense why you would feel that way.

You know what I mean?

That happens.

So we had one last night when we were preparing.

So we went to bed last night.

We've been staying up later and later recently for whatever reason, like our sleep schedule is getting different.

And the night before that we had, we were drinking some tea and it had like valerian root in it or something like that.

So it put us to sleep almost immediately.

And I woke up the next day and I was kind of groggy and took us, the morning was a little bit slower for me.

And I didn't want that to happen And this morning for this interview, I wanted to be more fresh and more awake.

So last night, Steph, do you want some more tea?

And I'm like, no.

And I brushed her off in response to it.

You were like, no, because we're going to bed.

Yeah, no, we're going to bed.

And then I went back out into the kitchen and I had a little snack.

And she's like, what are you doing?

Like, you said that we were going to bed and you just said no.

And I'm like.

That's because I didn't want the tea.

Like as soon as I explained it to her, she's like, oh, that makes total sense.

And at first I heard, and I'm in this phase right now where I'm really looking.

Anyway, I'm going through some stuff and it's bringing out little me.

So we keep acknowledging it.

He's like, why did you think that?

I'm like, because I'm two.

I'm two right now.

You know, I'm really like carrying this.

But then it was like, what I heard is no, we couldn't do this thing together that I love doing that.

We have this because we're going to bed because we have to get up early.

And then you said no you didn't want to do this thing with me and it wasn't true about going to bed because then you just wanted to be and so i just made it like i i took it from this very.

Childlike perspective of you don't like me you don't want to be i you know i understand how much i blew that out of the proportion but that's what i was feeling you don't like me you don't want to be around me you don't want to spend time with me and you just lie to me so now i'm not Yeah.

And I don't know what's all of this.

And I just didn't want the tea.

Yeah.

Craig just didn't want to get sleepy.

I love it.

I love it.

And I think that being, and it kind of goes back to that.

We can check off so many of these in a good way in the mind reading expectations or the emotional reasoning.

I felt that.

So obviously it's true and he should know, and there's a way to do it and not a way to do it.

And that's why, and I worry a bit because I had a client say that it all feels overwhelming.

And then I even said, okay, well, that's, But we're back to you think you're going to be doing it the wrong way.

And I hope that as people start to hear these things that they can just recognize, okay, and I like this so much.

I don't know the things I don't know.

I think that is such a powerful concept.

And the things I have learned, I used to not know.

So this becomes more of those things that I didn't know.

And now I know.

And I think that over time, it gets to be exciting.

I think of, well, what else is there that I don't know?

I can't wait to know.

And if I think that I have to master these and know all these, I'm right back to the, oh, I'm doing it the wrong way, or it's all or nothing, or it's black or white.

There's something in there.

Like when we started down this path several years ago, and I was thinking about looking at myself through that lens of being emotionally immature, that immediately brings up judgment inside of me where I'm like, no, I'm not.

Like I'm defensive to that term.

Very much like growing up, it was like, well, you're just immature.

It's this thing of you're not grown up enough.

You don't really know.

Like you're stupid, right?

we were told that forever very much like the reframe of like less because i was i still sit with that like the term emotional immaturity or emotional maturity as somehow like better than as opposed to just the learning process like that like it's really easy to think about how we have to learn things we have to learn how to read we have to learn how to tie our shoes we have to learn things like we're all okay with that concept and idea intellectually having to learn things And I think emotional health is the exact same thing.

It's something that we have to learn.

We have to be taught it.

We have to learn it.

We have to absorb it.

And looking at it through that lens rather than some sort of lack where this is, you know, I'm 40, I'm 44 years old and I'm still immature emotionally, as opposed to just, well, I haven't learned all the things that I need to learn emotionally.

So I'm 55.

And again, I would like to say I'm a 55 year old therapist for 20 years now with adult kids podcast.

One would maybe think that I've got things figured out.

And I love to be able to say with certainty, oh, I don't.

But I don't I don't think that's the goal.

I think it's to just continue to figure things out.

And I do call it your own individualized customized treatment plan.

I love acceptance and commitment therapy, the nurtured heart parenting, my beloved four pillars, differentiation.

I'm going to go big on emotional immaturity, valor stages of faith.

I found the things that really have helped me make sense of things.

And so I am presenting them to the world.

Now, if everybody does exactly all the things I do, then apparently I am right.

So that helps, right?

We're all going through it for the first time.

And so we're going to pick up things from this person and this person.

And I will say I have one of my favorite clients of all time.

A few weeks ago, I brought to her this, all the immaturity stuff.

And I was giddy.

She was in the session.

Her husband was in there and I'm saying, isn't this cool?

And I love the fact that she said, don't take this the wrong way, which what I love by the way is I don't think I can take anything the wrong way anymore.

I think it's been quite a while because even from a differentiation lens, it's a, Ooh, all right, this will be interesting.

Tell me the things that I should take the wrong way.

And I'm like, Oh, I'm good.

So I love that practice in and of itself.

But then she said, when we started working with you, we got some four pillars.

We got the need for validation.

We start talking about differentiation.

Now you're bringing all this immaturity stuff.

And she said, when will you have it all figured out?

And I just said, Oh, never.

Isn't that exciting?

And that's where I went down this whole path of that.

I don't know what I don't know.

And so I can't wait to know more.

And I always have this squishy thought of what's coming next.

I really still think I'm going to learn a lot more about internal family systems.

I think I know some about it.

I think that I need to learn so much more about yoga.

I'm, as I understand, I've got a couple of clients that are.

Huge yoga enthusiasts there are so many things i cannot wait to know more about and i think that that becomes the journey of life and i've even the older we get i think we were talking about this earlier in time passing and i am somewhat becoming obsessed with how do i stay sharp the older i get and so i read a lot about the people as the population ages and i'm and i cherry pick articles that make me feel better but i found some good ones that say if you continue to learn have a sense of purpose that how much more you will be present and active and young and your mind will stay sharp and so i don't ever want to stop this stuff i don't think there's an end yeah i totally agree wasn't there something babe that you like i can't remember if you brought it up or i don't remember where i heard it but it was something like when you push yourself to do the hard things so like when there's the thing that you don't want to do but then you do it anyways and i'm not talking about like detrimental abuse of you know not violating your boundaries Yeah, not things that are hurtful to us in a sense.

Things that are good for you that you know, and you just don't put forth that effort for yourself where it's going to be too hard.

There's something neurologically in that space that helped with brain development and brain growth and things like that, where if you push yourself to do the thing that you don't want to do it continually, isn't that right?

It builds your brain.

Builds your brain.

Yeah, it expands that part.

And so you start to get better at it.

And it's that thing too.

with.

So you have to keep finding that thing to push yourself.

Cause once you get good at doing this thing and it's no longer hard, it's not working that same muscle.

And it's not about that.

Like you're going to hear that and be like, all right, I'll ultra marathon, you know, you don't have to like.

Do you go to, or maybe if you like that, do it.

I'm not saying not to do that, but it's like, once you find that edge, you can like to keep building, find something else.

And it's, it's a rewarding thing too.

It's also like you, you like what you're learning, but you just push yourself a little more than you would in that.

I'm getting it wrong.

It's okay.

I'm getting it right.

It's that flexing that muscle because you are actually helping yourself and you're actually loving yourself in that space when you're putting forth the effort for yourself.

And that can be incredibly hard.

Like it might be saying, no, I don't want tea when I'm going to bed right now, which has got to be scary on that space because your wife might think you don't love her anymore.

Right.

Yeah.

Great.

And so it's just these little things because it's building that brain, it's building that confidence and it's building that cognition muscle as well.

And you're tapping in, it's setting new neurons that are going.

So it's a, it's a healthy space.

Yeah.

And the book ADHD 2.0 of all things, which is, I look at that as a holy scripture.

There's a great chapter in there about the neuroplasticity of the brain and how that the fixed brain mindset is, has been so debunked.

You can teach an old dog new tricks.

And so the constant learning, I think you're spot on stuff.

And I, I love in the book and I'm not a big bibliotherapist.

So this is making me sound like, Oh, I could quote things all day, but I I just have a few go-to that I love, but Buddha's Brain, this book by Rick Hansen, that's where I learned this concept of the mechanisms of memory, but even more so what an implicit memory is, which he says is implicit memory or what it feels like to be you is based on the slow residue of your lived experience.

So I think the more that we are doing of whatever it is, then it just becomes.

So if I am a seeker of knowledge, if I am someone that is going to continue to push myself, it just eventually becomes what it feels like to be me.

And I worry and it breaks my heart when people are continually ruminating, overthinking, worrying, because over time.

And what it feels like to be that person or their implicit memory built on their slow residue of lived experience is they are one who overthinks and ruminates and worries.

And I do not have data to back it up, but I just, it makes sense to me.

That is what is going to keep me alive mentally is I worry that when people are worrying and overthinking and ruminating, that is how they are spending their emotional calories.

And over time, that is what they do.

And then when somebody is trying to get to know them, they're just going to hear a lot of that.

But I worry about and I don't think you understand.

And but what if and over time, if somebody is on their journey that is much different than that, then that won't necessarily be a person that they will feel as connected to.

And that can be really difficult.

Yeah.

Tony, this has been so fun.

This has been so cool.

We love when you come on the podcast.

I was excited about this.

I think it's a great conversation.

Emotional maturity, immaturity.

I do think that it's the, like, if we look at society as a whole, I think it's the thing that we are all really needing to take an honest, no bullshit look at and recognize and start taking accountability before.

And you've laid out a bunch of things I love so perfectly.

The things to, okay, well, if I'm in this space, If it's black or white thinking, if I'm in the magical thinking, if I'm, you know, all of these, all of this stuff is very much stemming from that place.

It's such a good foundation to start from.

So I love it.

This has been awesome.

Once again, I love that I had the space to go through all this because I think the last time I was on, I maybe had shared with you guys, I used the first experiences.

It's one of my, it's in my canon that I send to new clients.

And I think this will be one I can't wait to share as well, because I appreciate you guys giving me the space and the energy and the fun times to work through or go through all these and that kind of detail.

So I can't wait to share this with everybody too.

That's so awesome.

What's the, uh, do you have a website?

You've got a website, don't you?

Yeah.

Tony overbay.com and then, or at the virtual couch on Tik TOK or at virtual.couch on Instagram.

And I would love to say that in the not too distant future, I am working on a little bit of a course on emotional maturity and emotional maturity.

And I do have a book that I'm trying to put together and, but I'm good at, that's my magical thinking.

There are a lot of times where I've said, I'm going to do this and then I mean it in the moment and then I don't do it.

But I think this is a, this is something that I just, so it's been just simmering for so long.

And then it just finally all makes a lot more sense and it's coming together.

And then I don't know if it just needed to wait until we are seeing all the things we're seeing in the world.

But I think we need to just first start from a place of awareness of what emotional maturity looks like.

So I want to be, I want to be on the forefront of that.

I want, here's where I want to manifest and make it known that I want to speak to groups on this.

I want to help people with this.

I want to put a lot of content out about this because you can hear it and say, that's a good idea, but this is something I've been living for so long and trying to help people recognize, understand, be.

And so I just think that we're just at the beginning of figuring out what to do with our emotional immaturity.

And I think it will definitely change dynamics, relationships.

And so why not the world?

Yeah, there we go.

I think it's the missing key.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So thank you guys.

Can't wait to have you come on my podcast next.

I'm enjoying the home and away stuff, right?

Absolutely.

Yes.

Let's wrap up, baby.

Okay.

Thank you so much.

Expect the best.

Plan for the greatest.

Hey, everybody, let me take a quick minute to talk to the guys who are listening to this episode.

I want to really hone in on the guys who are starting to wake up to the fact that something in your life just isn't quite right.

Let me ask you this.

have you ever caught yourself thinking things are going to get better?

Things will be better when the kids grow up or when you get in better shape or when you get the promotion or when you finally have a little more time or after you finish all eight seasons of this Netflix show that you are invested in.

That is magical thinking.

It'll get better later.

And that's what gets people to this place where they feel like they're not living their very best life.

So welcome to later.

It is now later.

It is time to do something about it.

Yeah, your life maybe isn't playing out the way that you thought it would and you don't know why.

Or maybe you think that you do, but nothing that you try seems to work or it actually seems to make things worse.

And now you're stuck kicking the can down the road.

And at this point, you've kicked that can so far down the road that you might qualify for a Guinness world record in emotional deflection.

But here is the truth.

It is time to stop letting your job, your marriage, your bank account, your kids, your fear, your ego dictate how you show up in your own life.

I have been fortunate to work with men from all walks of life, athletes and politicians and doctors and lawyers and engineers and salesmen, you name it.

And the truth is, our struggles are far more alike than you think.

The key is not getting older or wealthier or more shredded at the gym.

It's admitting that you need help.

Now, this may sound like a riddle, but I promise you it's not because I'm actually not a very big fan of riddles.

So hear me out.

You don't know what you don't know.

And that's OK, because how could you know what you don't know?

And the things that you've learned in your life up to this point were also things that you did not know until you learned them.

So it would only make sense that as you continue on life's path as a human, there is a lot more to learn.

That can be an awesome thing.

But for some reason, men in particular have a tough time admitting or understanding this, but it is the key to the next phase of your life.

And I can guide you down that path because real change doesn't come from chasing more.

It comes from learning to look inward and confronting something inside of you that I promise you, you're probably not even aware of.

So that is where my emotional architects men's group comes in.

I promise that I do have the tools.

You just have to show up.

Whether it's business, marriage, parenting, intimacy, health, finances, or friendships, the root of most of our struggles as men in particular is emotional immaturity.

And guess what?

We are all emotionally immature.

But when you learn what it is, when you learn what it looks like, how it shows up in all the areas of your life, when you learn how to embrace it instead of running from it, everything starts to shift.

So for less than the cost of one therapy session a month, you will get access to two group calls a month with like-minded men, guys who are ready to grow with a clear, well-crafted roadmap that teaches you the things that you didn't even know that you were missing, as well as you'll have one-on-one access to yours truly.

That's me.

And a place to ask every question you've ever wanted answered.

You name it, we'll answer it.

So if you have been waiting for some sort of a sign, well, this is it.

So go to TonyOverbay.com or email me at contact at TonyYoverbay.com and ask about the Men's Emotional Architects group.

Later is today.

And character transforming, life-altering change is ready and waiting for you.