Music.

Hey everybody, welcome to what I think is going to be a very, very special episode of The Virtual Couch Presents.

And most likely you'll hear this one on both or either The Virtual Couch as well as waking up to narcissism.

So before I get to that, I will make the business items hopefully brief.

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And it is going to be an amazing cruise focused on living an incredible life.

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But we would love to have you join us.

And so let's get to today's show.

And please understand that I am here to share and possibly entertain a little bit, but not to diagnose.

So please find a good therapist, because I think that is truly what matters the most.

Now, I haven't talked much publicly about this, but on July 13th of this year, so a little over two months ago, my mom passed away.

She was 77 years old.

And so today I'm going to replay an interview that I did with my good friend, Tricia Jameson.

She's host of the Q&A Files podcast, where I normally join her.

She's a board-certified functional nutritionist and her husband, Dr.

Jeff, who is a board-certified family physician.

And we tackle all kinds of questions from listeners and articles on mental health and physical health and nutritional health, all those things.

And Tricia asked me shortly after my mom died if I was open to talking about it or when I might be open to talking about it.

And I really was open to talking about it pretty fairly soon after.

And I even wrote down a whole bunch of things and I recorded a little bit, but then I just never did anything with the recording.

So I'm excited to share this with you.

I think it's a really raw conversation that I wanted to bring to my listeners because so many of you have been there through the last decade plus of putting out podcasts.

And it's that odd thing where the therapist doesn't, as much as I'm talking about myself on the podcast, there's still a part of me that doesn't let people in too much.

So I thought that this was something I really wanted to share.

But before I get to that, I do want to start with a story.

I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, which is going to matter here in just a little bit, because it is important to note that it is not the same as a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

If I'm being honest, well, first of all, I do get confused for both pretty regularly where some of my own clients will say something about, well, you know, I told them that Dr.

Overbay said, I'm thinking, man, who is this Dr.

Overbay that shares my name?

And I'm not even sure who they are, but I'll hear those things and I will normally try to correct those.

And to be fair, before I was halfway through graduate school, I honestly wasn't totally sure what the difference was either between a therapist and a psychiatrist and a psychologist.

So let me clarify, because I think it will come into play.

A licensed marriage and family therapist, an LMFT like myself, typically earns their undergraduate degree in a subject, maybe psychology.

Mine was actually in mass communications with an emphasis in public relations.

And while I never declared a minor, I did take several psychology classes as well as a sociology class or two.

and I really enjoyed them.

I absolutely loved them.

But at that time, I didn't really even think that one could make their living doing therapy.

But to be an LMFT after you get your undergraduate degree or your bachelor's degree, or at least I'll kind of go down my path.

But I went on to get my master's degree in counseling.

And that took a couple of years.

And then from there, I completed a clinical internship, which was about 3,000 hours of supervised therapy work.

Before then, I could sit for two licensing exams.

And you pass them.

And it's rigorous.

And it can be stressful.

But it doesn't make me a doctor.

A clinical psychologist, on the other hand, goes beyond the master's degree.

That I earned, and they get a doctoral degree, which can be two, three years more.

And that's where they get their PhD or their PsyD, meaning a doctorate in psychology.

So yes, they are doctors, but probably not the kind that you want to stand up when somebody yells, is there a doctor on this plane?

And then there's a psychiatrist, and that's a legitimate medical doctor who went to medical school and did rounds and probably set a few bones and maybe even delivered a baby before deciding that they wanted to focus on the mind.

That is the kind of doctor who prescribes medication and manages very complex mental health conditions from a medical perspective.

And I would definitely rather have them saying, I am a doctor.

If somebody yells, is there a doctor on this airplane before the doctor of psychology?

No offense.

So again, very clearly, I'm not a doctor, but for as long as I can remember, my mom, bless her heart, believed I was a doctor and not just any vague, proud parent sort of way.

She really did think that I was a full-blown white coat wearing stethoscope, toting, prescription writing doctor.

And not that long ago, even she bought me this really cool pen light that she thought that I would like for when I needed to dilate somebody's pupils or maybe even look down their throat, which are not things that I do.

I've never actually dilated a pupil if I'm being honest, But I've definitely tried to look down my own throat.

Google tonsil stones or what we refer to in my home as throat peanuts.

Or honestly, don't because you'll either realize they have a name and kind of one of those if you know, you know kind of things.

Or you'll never be able to unsee what you're about to see.

And never, ever smash them between your fingers.

Because if you thought getting the smell of onions off your fingers was difficult.

Anyway, maybe that was something.

Maybe this whole thing I should edit out this part.

But I'm not going to.

But back to the story.

So no, no amount of explaining that I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist could ever quite override the story to my mom that her baby boy is a doctor.

And she would say with total conviction, well, you're the doctor, you should know.

I remember one time her asking me if a medication was a blood thinner or something like a sleep aid.

And I tried to gently clarify and she cut me off with, okay, no, I'm asking you, you're the doctor, just tell me.

And another time, I disagreed with her about a piece of advice that she had given someone in my family, and then she even raised an eyebrow and said, well, that surprises me coming from a doctor.

So eventually, I stopped trying to correct her, because it really didn't matter.

That was her story, and I guess in a way, it was her truth.

Now, fast forward to just a few months ago, it was maybe a month or a month and a half before she passed, and she was first admitted into the ICU, and it was looking really touch and go.

Her lungs were full of fluid, and she was really struggling to breathe, and it was this start of what became her transition to hospice.

Now, when I arrived at the ICU, we weren't sure that she would make it through the first couple of days.

She was on almost 100% oxygen, and speaking was really, really difficult.

And so I come into the room, my dad's in there and we're talking and I'm watching my mom's struggle.

And it was really, it was, it was difficult to see.

The doctor walked in shortly after.

So my dad started talking to the doctor about my mom's condition.

And then from across the room through her oxygen mask and just sheer will and determination, my mom pulls the mask off and says, Lynn, let Tony talk to him.

He's the doctor.

And my back was to her and the real doctor looked at me and he was clearly unsure of what to say.

And I just smiled and said, I'm not actually a doctor.

I'm a marriage therapist.

And what was just so fun in real time, that real doctor replied, I could probably use you.

And I just said, yeah, you probably could.

A lot of my clients are from hospital staff and we shared a good chuckle.

But again, I'm not a doctor.

Later, I shared that moment with our family group chat with my kids.

And I added that when the nurse was being firm with my mom about keeping her oxygen mask on, I really thought my mom was going to go right there.

She was so determined to talk.

And then I shared with them, well, you know, at least grandma would have died doing something that she loved, talking and telling somebody that they're wrong.

So it was at that moment, my mom pulling off her oxygen mask to advocate, I guess for me, reminded me of this story I heard from another therapist, but it hit me so hard that I haven't been able to stop thinking about it.

And I just wanted to share it.

It's as if I could have seen this thing happening to me.

And I'm certainly not recommending anybody do what I'm about to describe, which this therapist did without guidance from a hospice team.

However, this moment became one of the most oddly fitting and meaningful gifts that this therapist had ever received from his mom.

And again, if I'm being honest, I very much identified with this story very, very deeply as if this were my very own story.

As if I could have seen it playing out in my own life in precisely the same situation in the exact same way.

Had this been my own experience.

But if it had been my own experience, of course, I would not want to share it as my experience because I would have hated for anyone at the board and care facility that I will describe who were doing their best to take care of people during their final days to get in any kind of trouble.

Even if this story was exactly true and if hypothetically it was mine, which I'm saying it isn't.

So let's just say that this therapist's mom had also spent the better part of the last few years believing that he too was a doctor.

So imagine that, the coincidence.

For this guy, same.

Not in a cute, symbolic way.

She really thought he had his MD.

And anytime he tried to correct her, she'd wave him off with something like, well, you're the doctor, you should know.

And so then he too eventually stopped trying to correct her.

Okay, I think you get the point.

As her health declined, she was eventually transferred from the hospital to a boarding care facility, one exactly like my mom's.

The kind of small home-style setting where hospice patients receive end-of-life care, just like the one that my mom ended up in.

And this therapist and his father and the therapist's wife were there bedside for her final days again, which crazy is exactly like it was in my situation.

And his mother also became incoherent in her last few days.

Now, because she had told all the caregivers that her son was a doctor well before her son, the therapist, not a doctor had arrived.

The staff believed her that her son was a doctor.

So when that therapist arrived to sit with his mother before she eventually became incoherent because he would travel back to that location every couple of weeks.

He'd kept his practice in that area.

The staff would come in on occasion, and his mother would introduce him as her son, the doctor.

And you could just see the pride that radiated from her in those final days.

And so the son, he just rolled with it.

As the end drew near and his mom faded into incoherence, the hospital staff was at the point in this end-of-life care where they were just managing her pain.

It was just that, pure and simple.

And so she started to receive liquid morphine as they prepared for the very end.

Now, a day or two before she passed, her breathing was beginning to get very, very agitated.

And that was the cue for them to give her more of this liquid morphine, this medication for pain.

Because she was starting to exhibit symptoms of more and more severe pain.

And in this one particular situation, it was really clear that she needed another dose of the liquid morphine.

But there was a problem.

There weren't any of these pre-filled syringes ready, and the nurse wasn't on site.

But the caregiver turned to the son and said, hey, we're in a little bit of a jam.

We need a nurse or a doctor to fill the syringes.

And well, you are a doctor.

You can fill that syringe, right?

In that moment, after days of waiting and watching and holding this space, he just stood up and he said, yes, I am.

You bet I can definitely do that.

So he accompanied the staff member to the nurse's station, and the staff member noticed that actually they were out of the liquid morphine, to which the therapist, who apparently had keen observation skills, saw a bottle in his mom's medication tote that looked exactly the same and said on it, morphine.

He pointed that out, and it was funny, he told me, that the staff member said, oh, okay, yeah, you would know, you're the doctor.

And the therapist thought to himself, no, I guess I'm just actually good at noticing similar shapes and reading labels on bottles, but a confirmation bias, right?

That person in charge was looking for evidence to confirm, I guess, her cognitive bias in that moment that he was in fact a doctor.

So the therapist walked into the room with his father and the therapist's wife looking at him with these big eyes thinking, what the heck are you doing?

But he confidently administered the dose to his mom.

And this therapist had conveyed to me that it was actually a pretty tender experience.

And it was definitely almost like he said this gift that his mom had given him, one that had been set up years in advance.

I don't know if she had apparently been in on the long con, but to him, it really was quite the moment.

Humorous, yeah, but also somewhat kind of special, maybe even sacred, like something had come full circle and it really felt like somewhere deep inside of her, she waited for that moment so her son could help her one last time the way that she always believed he could as her doctor.

Because if you knew that mom, she pretty much always found a way to get her way.

And maybe this was her final say, not just about how or when she would go, but also about whether or not her son really was a doctor.

Because in her eyes, he was.

So for my mom, or scratch that, for that mom, that story was her truth.

Her son was her doctor.

and nothing that he could have said could have changed that.

Kind of like a beautiful delusion that made perfect sense to her.

And in the end, maybe that's all that mattered.

So back to my experience with my mom.

As I sat bedside during those final days, I found myself in a completely different role than I am used to.

Not as a therapist helping others process grief, which I've been fortunate enough to do quite often.

And I know the things to say that apparently were the right things to say.

But this time I was the sun and I was experiencing it firsthand.

You know, it's one thing to guide clients through loss, but it's another thing entirely to be the one sitting bedside next to somebody that has been a part of your life for literally your entire life, waiting for something you can't control.

It's happening.

It's relentless.

It's going to be what it's going to be, whether you want it to or not.

Whether there would have been an easier way for you to experience it or not, it's just going to happen.

This conversation is definitely not a clinical discussion about the stages of grief and loss or therapeutic techniques for processing loss.

I think this is pretty raw, it's honest, and hopefully funny, because that's what real grief looks like.

It's messy, it's unpredictable, there are ups and downs, and there can be humor, and it doesn't follow the textbooks.

And Tricia asked the questions that I think would have been really interesting to ponder beforehand, accepting the fact that I honestly wouldn't have known the answers, because that was just about to be the very first time that I was going to go through that experience as me.

So we talk about the humor that shows up in even what might be viewed as the darkest moments, the spiritual experiences that maybe you hope for, but might not get, and why, hey, let me know if you need anything, might not actually be as helpful as we think it is.

But most importantly, I think we explore what it means to sit with uncertainty, to be present with pain, or with all the emotions that are kind of happening at once.

You might have some pain, sorrow, grief, humor frustration and being sleepy and hungry and and dopey and doc kind of had to go there or at times feeling almost apathetic and also to try and find meaning in that whole process of waiting so whether or not you are processing your own loss or supporting somebody who is or if you're even just curious about what it's like when the the helper i guess that would be me becomes the one who needs the help.

I think this conversation is something that offers a little of all of that, because it's definitely not about having all the answers, because how could you have them?

It's the first time you're going through that whole experience as you, but it's about being, I think, human enough to sit with the questions and to notice all the things that are happening in a way that you're not doing any of it wrong.

You're just going through it.

You're just being and doing.

So you can just kind of check that out.

This is what I'm thinking.

This is how I'm feeling.

Here's my conversation with Tricia about grief and grace and what I learned on the other side of the couch.

Sometimes you walk with others through their hardest moments.

We offer words.

We hold space for them.

We speak softly into someone else's pain, especially when you're a therapist, a coach, or a physician.

You learn how to sit with suffering.

You learn how to stay steady for others.

You learn the language of deep compassion.

But then one day, it may be your turn.

So today's episode is a tender one.

It's about what happens when the helper becomes the griefer.

When the one who usually has the answers finds himself sitting in the unknown.

This episode is called On the Other Side of the Couch, Grief and Grace with Tony Overbate.

Tony recently lost his mom, and today he's sharing what that journey looks like, not just as a therapist, but also as a son.

So welcome, friends, to the Q&A Files.

I'm Tricia Jameson, and today we're having an honest, heart-level conversation about grief, grace, and what truly shifts in us when we're the one experiencing that grace.

Before we dive in, as always, I'd like to start with celebrations.

And I know even in the midst of grief, sometimes there's those little moments of light.

I remember when my dad passed away, we just had a lot of those tender moments.

Is there anything that you'd like to share with us today, Tony?

Well, it's funny.

I was already queuing up a joke.

So now I can't.

Go ahead and share the joke.

Because that is who you are.

It is who I am.

And we'll talk about that too, because that was pretty fascinating.

When you said that I had lost my mom, and I think I've told you off the air before, but I can't turn off my humor brain and it's going constantly.

And when people have said to me in the past where they've said, you know, we lost my grandpa back in 2012, my immediate thought is, do you guys ever find him and it makes me laugh every time and so i thought that so many times, i'm never gonna look at that question the same ever again it's the best oh my god as a matter of fact i've been i've been jotting down some notes for doing a bit of a podcast on some on the virtual couch or some of these things and i already of course i'm gonna have to call it losing tony losing tony's mom and it's going to start with a hilarious narrative of yeah we can find her it was really rough oh my gosh we're still looking for her okay i will tell you a celebration And so this one actually has some humor in it as well.

It was two weeks ago on a Wednesday.

This is really funny because it was the client that just left.

And then I got out of that session.

I had a text from my dad and he said, hey, if you can, can you can you FaceTime me?

My dad doesn't ever ask for me to FaceTime.

And I knew that he was at this board and care with my mom.

And I still go back and forth between California and Arizona because I've maintained my practice there.

And so I had been spending some time with my mom in the board and care.

And she'd been, even though she was on hospice, she seemed like she was rallying.

And, and we were, when I would hang out there, we would watch TV together.

She would tell some stories, that sort of thing.

But then I FaceTimed my dad.

And he had my mom there and you could tell that she just looked like she was kind of already gone internally and it looked like it wasn't even her.

And then I realized, oh man, I might be saying goodbye to her right now.

And it was wild.

And I just sat there.

I didn't have a client at that time.

And then he just texted and said, hey, if you can get here today, that'd be great.

And so then I called my wife and then I canceled the rest of the afternoon.

And then we were on a plane and we landed.

And so the humor, of course, is that I was hungry and we hadn't eaten.

And I picked up the rental car right before midnight.

And if we wouldn't have made it by midnight, we'd had an Uber.

And so it's like that timing worked great.

And In-N-Out is open until 1.30 in the morning.

So I just thought, OK, well, it's on the way to the boarding care.

And I sat there thinking, man, if I end up missing her by 10 minutes because I wanted a cheeseburger and some well-done fries, that probably wouldn't be a good thing.

But I got the cheeseburger and we ended up.

So I guess the maybe a celebration is, you know, we did make it there.

That was a it was pretty amazing just to go from in my office one minute to then home and pick up Wendy and we're at the airport and then I'm there.

And then we were at the Borden Care by one that morning and then it was let the waiting begin and it was almost four days of her hanging in there.

Yeah, so celebration.

In-N-Out, well done fries and a cheeseburger on the way to the Borden Care.

There we go.

Having a full tummy makes everything so much better, right?

Yeah, but that would have been pretty bad though if I would have pulled up there and I'm still got my soda cup in hand and my dad says you missed her by a minute or two.

So that would have been a challenge, right?

Yeah.

Well, it's interesting too, because when my dad passed away, we were living in Yakima and I had that phone call.

You better come over.

And I'd kind of already said goodbye to my dad.

So Yakima is about three, over three hours to get to Spokane.

And if I had left right at that moment and I had all these children that I needed to pack or find something to do with them, I wouldn't have made it.

So I think it was the best decision.

But I remember feeling a lot of guilt.

Just, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm not going over.

Even though the day before I left, I did say goodbye and I just did all those things that you try to do at a time like that.

But I still think that even today, it's like, gosh, maybe he would have held on if he knew I was coming.

Maybe.

I don't know.

And so, but they, my siblings talk about this tender moment that they all had with him.

And I wasn't part of that experience.

So sometimes I do feel a little.

Okay.

The therapist in me says, I'm sorry to hear that because, and I think it ties into maybe what we're going to talk about today because I've processed with so many people those moments.

And so it was such an interesting experience to then be in that moment there at the bedside.

And just in general, and I was telling my wife this, that it's fascinating because the hospice staff, the hospice nurse was incredible and there was a hospice social worker.

And I think that's just such a special person that works in that space.

But then I also, again, going back to jokes, the things that they said were so comforting.

But then I realized at one point it was like, wait a minute, they've got all their bases covered.

Because at first they said, you know, sometimes they wait for you to be out of the room to go because they don't want you to be there.

But sometimes they wait for you to get in the room and then they go.

And when each one of those was said, I was like, man, that's beautiful.

Then I realized, wait a minute.

So if I'm there or if I'm not.

But they're correct either way.

You know, because I thought that was that was really funny.

And I realized, gosh, we want certainty so bad.

And we just wanted somebody to tell us, hey, do you think it'll be tonight or do you think it'll be tomorrow?

And nobody knows.

Nobody knows.

But people are trying to then figure out the right thing to say, trying to figure out what would you want to hear.

And there were times where at one point, I think I was wanting to hear that it wouldn't be much longer because it just really seemed like she was not there.

And that person's like, oh, she could stay for days.

And then I was like, that's not the right answer.

And nobody knows.

And so I just thought that was a really fascinating part of it.

Oh, but where I was going with that, Trisha, is, again, I'm so sorry to hear that you can still go to that place of, did you feel like you missed that opportunity?

Yeah I mean it's been so many years later, And I definitely don't focus on that as much.

But yeah, I mean, there's still that.

If we ever talk about it, they kind of share some of those tender moments just prior.

And it's just, you can feel a different presence in the room.

And it just, there's a lot more light.

And for those that have more of a spiritual outlook, that is something that people look for.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I appreciate that.

Well, and so I'll tell you the hilarious couples therapist version of this, too, where I worked with a couple once.

And it was so interesting to now understand being in that, and again, in that moment or in that situation and understand even some of the stories that I've worked with before and what they must have been like.

And there was a couple that the wife was so upset that the husband was not there when it was her mom or her dad had passed away.

But then the guy said, but you asked me to go get you Starbucks.

And so then I did and I missed it.

And then she was saying, but you should have known, you know, you should have known that he was.

And that's one of those where it's, man, people just so want to make sense or they weren't in a good spot anyway.

And so it's like there's something that then she now will most likely hold over him.

Oh, that's so sad.

I really appreciate that comment, though, that people want to make sense of the situation.

And sometimes you just can't.

You just get to experience it.

There's no making sense of it.

And that was, you're so spot on because I started to notice we would check her oxygenation level and it would be a certain number.

And then we're on chat GPT and Google.

And it's, oh, if it's this, it could be any minute.

So I'm like, oh, man, we're all up by the bed.

And wasn't it like in the 40s or something like that?

Yeah.

But my mom, bless her heart, was very stubborn.

So she was going to do it on her own time.

And I think I sent you and Dr.

Jeff something I had shared with my extended family.

But, They were saying that hearing is maybe the last thing to go.

And so for a while, we were doing the, hey, it's okay.

Like, you can go.

You've done great.

And I realized, wait a minute.

She doesn't like to be told what to do.

So then a little later, I was back.

I'm like, hey, you know what?

You can actually stick around as long as you want.

As a matter of fact.

Rebirth psychology.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, I love it.

That is so funny.

So how long from then?

How long from then did she pass away?

So it was, I mean, it was, we got there Thursday morning at like 1 a.m.

And she passed away on Sunday afternoon.

And so that was a few days and she was incoherent that entire time.

But there was such a, it was such an interesting experience on Sunday morning.

Out of nowhere, she opens her eyes and there's a CNA in there and a hospice nurse.

And then, oh my gosh.

And it was like a movie script.

And then we all get over there and holding her hand and my dad's looking at her and you can go.

And she's like trying to talk and she can't really get anything out.

And there was a tiny part of me that was worried if she did, she might not say nice things.

But it was nice because we were like, no, she's trying to say she loves us and goodbye.

And so I liked that version a lot.

And then her breathing got really intense and then it slowed down and she closed her eyes.

And then she went right back to just there.

And I just thought, man, that was a movie ending that then it didn't end.

So then there was like, it was just so fascinating because then we all just kind of sat back down again and just.

Four days later I mean we're out of stories to tell we've been playing music it was really interesting and so then a few hours later I needed to go do laundry I brought it with me and so I ran over to my dad's house and then my mom went while I was gone yeah so it was just so interesting that that experience wow so I want to go back to that place in just a few minutes but But I was just thinking about, you know, you've sat with so many people in grief over the years, your clients, friends, even a lot of your listeners here.

Can you take us to the place that you felt this shift?

You know, what surprised you?

What was helpful for you?

I love the question.

I'm a big acceptance and commitment therapy person.

It's the first time we're going through life is us.

So there is really no playbook, but there's ways that we assume we should show up or things that we think we should be thinking or feeling.

So I was so ready to just go there and be.

But the part that I forgot was that your mind can think anything it wants.

And so I would still have these moments where I'm sitting there and I'm just trying to be present, but I would notice the stories my brain wanted to tell me of things like, man, maybe you could have done a better job as a son.

And the part that was interesting was...

The good news was having really embraced acceptance and commitment therapy long ago, I immediately went to this place of like, whoa, that's the thought I'm going to have right now.

That's not a very productive one.

I'm not a big fan of that one.

Instead of it just like, oh, I feel bad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was the part.

And then once that happened and it happened pretty early, then it was I just realized, oh, that's right.

I can do all the work I want to, but my mind can think anything it wants.

And then my body will feel a lot of different feelings.

So I was able to look at those with more curiosity and because some of them weren't great.

Some of them were hilarious.

Some of them were, they were just all over the place.

And so I appreciated that.

That was where it really shifted to, oh, I'm here.

Like I am doing this.

This is, this is happening.

This is an experience that I will now pull from.

You know, this is, this is something that I will never forget, except for if I do, when I get older, if my memory slides.

And i've written a lot about it while i was there and since and so i've tried to like pack in all the feelings and emotions and memories and but it really it was kind of surreal just to think that i don't know i don't know if you've had that feeling for where you're in a moment and it's like wow this is really happening and that was one of those that just felt really profound yeah this is real time yeah yeah definitely i've had that experience it's very it's almost like this out-of-body experience?

A little bit.

Yeah.

It's really interesting.

You know, I've got one that's going to sound like I'm trying to work in, oh, let me mention my ultramarathon races, but it really, one of the other times I would feel this and not, of course, in that similar way.

So I did a few of these like a hundred mile runs and that's kind of nuts now to think about it that I'm, because I'm not going to probably do any more of those.

Right.

And so I would be at the starting line on one of those.

And I would just think it would be so wild to think, wow, I am about to do this for like the next 24 hours.

Like I, and it is about to happen.

And I just, it was one of the most out of body experiences.

And so there was a similar feeling.

That's funny.

We mentioned that, that I was there.

I'm like, whoa, this I'm here.

I'm not leaving.

It is going to end.

I don't know when.

It was wild.

And you're going to experience it for 24 hours.

And I am.

Yeah.

And it ended up being whatever four times 24 is.

Yeah.

Great.

With my mom, right?

Yeah.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Wow.

I really appreciate that.

And I think that so often we have those experiences in our life.

And sometimes we just don't take a moment to just really sit and feel it and to experience it.

Like, you know, and I appreciate that you're writing things down.

You're taking notes.

You're really doing your part so you don't forget these things because I think these are really important.

There's things that I wish that I had written down about, you know, whether it's experiences with my dad or when I was going through some experiences.

I just, it's just a lot of memory.

And how often does that memory shift and change?

Oh, and I would say pretty much all the time.

And so it's like you have an experience and then the next time you tell it, all of a sudden there's something new or improved or who knows what it really is today.

I don't know.

So I was thinking that the other day when I was talking to Jeff and I was just saying, gosh, I was talking about an experience.

I'm like, gosh, I wonder if that even happened.

Yeah, for real.

I wonder if how much of this is even real.

This happened so, you know, when I was a child and just as a child and looking through a different lens and having such a childlike perspective.

Yeah.

And then you kind of grow up and you kind of, it's just interesting now to look back and go, gosh, I wonder how much is real.

I mean, it feels real.

You think it's real.

Well, that's exactly.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I have to tell you, there was a director that I was listening to a podcast and it was a movie and it was a military or like a war movie.

And the director had some really, really interesting things about memory that I had to stop on this walk and jot these down.

Okay.

So he said, I love this.

Memory is open to the passage of time and stress and trauma.

And so then I added in there and a need for validation and a fear of abandonment.

And so, and I wrote this note down of my first client experiences.

I don't even remember because I was in my own head so much because I was, I was afraid.

And then he said, memory is more reliable on what I felt because we don't have video, but we have snapshots and then we're filling in the gaps.

And I love that.

So it's about what you felt.

and then these snapshots of what happened and then you fill in the gaps with with the emotions and and then it does it changes that entire and that entire memory so fascinating and if you've had a negative experience what are you going to fill it in with not positive wonderful.

Memories they're going to be negative so yeah even if it was positive, absolutely one that's that's that concept where even in twin studies i mean two twins can have the same input and then have completely different output because of whatever they were feeling or thinking or interpreting or their own lens yeah it's just so fascinating that is so fascinating yeah so you were just talking about your secondary emotion which yeah is what humor right yeah did you find yourself during this time i know i know you i've known you for several years now and when When things have even been stressed, when you felt stressed or, you know, you're going through a challenge or difficulty, you always do reach for humor.

And I love that.

And I appreciate that.

I'm like, I reach for the positive.

Yeah, you do.

But did you find when you were going through this experience, and I know you just mentioned that you did reach for humor, was there anything else that came up for you?

I mean, like, did you try to distract yourself?

Did you look for more logical things that you needed to grab hold of?

Was there anything different that came up?

Yeah, I really like your question.

And I'll say first what was interesting about humor, and then I'll tell you what I did that I found myself looking at differently.

But the concept of differentiation, of holding on to myself when I'm interacting with others or when I felt like there was pressure to be a certain way or a different way, that that was a big challenge.

Cause I would find myself wanting to tell a joke and then, and I would notice, oh, I'm a little worried that someone might think this about me, but then I've been doing a lot of content on my episodes lately about emotional maturity.

And there's one of the concepts there where it's like, I'm worried this person will think this, but I need to let them think whatever they're going to think.

And I'm going to do, I'm going to be.

And so I would on occasion, I can't, I wish I could pull a good example of this right now, but I would say something that I said, because that's what I say.

And I would be aware that someone may take it a certain way but that was okay.

That was something that was a them thing and it didn't always go great because sometimes I get a couple of looks.

Because there might be a nurse in the room and I'm saying something pretty funny because my mom's there and it's maybe somebody that's in there that they think that might be inappropriate or but that's okay.

So that differentiation concept was continually being.

Yeah.

I love that.

So where did you get your humor?

Was your dad funny?

Was your mom funny?

Was an uncle funny?

Where did this come from?

Was it just a mechanism that you had to learn to just deal with life?

Just curious.

I've never actually thought of that because my dad is pretty funny.

Okay.

I didn't really, I didn't, my dad worked a lot when I was younger and I think he had a lot of stress providing and, and I don't know.

I, that's a funny, that's a great question.

I don't know.

But I was always like class clown and that sort of thing.

But it was, and I know now the, I mean, I know you know this stuff as well, but that was how I got my validation.

That was how I existed was if I crack jokes, people laugh, then that meant I was there, meant I existed.

Right.

Did your parents laugh at your jokes?

No, not so much.

Yeah.

Ouch.

So no validation there for you.

I'm sorry.

No, no, no.

But what I did think when you were saying, did anything else come up?

I did find myself really wanting to have almost like spiritual, mystical experiences.

I wanted to, I don't know, I wanted to, I wanted to feel the spirit in the room or I wanted to feel like I did notice that I wanted those things to happen.

Yeah.

And you didn't?

No, no.

But I mean, and that was because I will say that I work with a lot of people that are working on their faith journeys, faith deconstruction, faith crisis, you name it.

And so often people will say things like, you know, I don't feel this fill in the blank burning in the bosom or whatever.

And I get to work with enough people where I get to say, oh, that that isn't necessary or it's you're normal and human.

But I did notice that there were, I've worked with enough people that have been through that grieving process or the someone dying and they've had a pretty, pretty profound spiritual experience.

And, and what I did do was when there would be a nurse there and I love, I mean, the whole reason I do what I do is I love.

How people work.

And so I, whether it's a grocery store clerk and I'm going to ask them, what's your biggest sale today?

Or, you know, whatever, how do you mean customers?

So the hospice people, I found myself asking every one of them, Hey, have you had some pretty, pretty interesting or crazy experiences with this?

And they all have.

And I knew they would, cause I've had hospice workers as clients.

And there were some pretty amazing stories.

And it's funny because a couple of them stopped and I would joke and say, I'm a therapist.

It's okay.

And then they would tell some pretty, pretty wild stories.

And, and so I think there was a part of me that was like, I would like one of those, please.

Yeah.

Order out.

Yep.

Yeah, exactly.

And I don't know if that's the way it works.

Right.

I don't, apparently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Probably not, but okay.

That's interesting.

I appreciate that for sure.

Well, and it's, I've had a, I still remember the first funeral director client I had, and I had to ask them, you know, I just said, Hey, have you had some pretty, pretty wild experiences and I kind of assumed they'd say no and they were like oh yeah and then they would tell me one every time they came in and it yeah that stuff's pretty pretty amazing yeah do you feel like potentially that because you weren't experiencing that you wanted to kind of, feel that through other people that have had that experience oh trisha that's a good question.

And and that question might even lead to as you were saying it actually what came up for me was And you and I talked off the air, maybe we'll talk about this down the road, but I probably would have loved to have had a better relationship.

My mom had dealt with a lot of pain, a lot of chronic pain.

And so I wonder now as we're talking, maybe there's a part of me that wanted to have, if I couldn't have had necessarily the in-person connection, that maybe I wanted this spiritual connection there.

And maybe that was me subconsciously saying, okay, or no, it was literally consciously, but thinking, okay, if I could have this big experience going out, then it will all make sense.

And there I am wanting to make sense of things, maybe.

Yeah.

That logical part of your brain coming out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

I like that.

That's very good.

Did anything catch you off guard emotionally?

You know, something that felt small, but really hit hard.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah, there's, and I know that we are, our audience are all adult human beings.

So that, but that part of me is like, oh, I don't want to say anything that would make anybody sad.

But that concept of, I'd heard of the death rattle where the breathing that people will often get where, and that was a little rough to hear because I had heard so much about it from other clients.

And they would just say, and then, you know, they experienced the death rattle.

And so I'd heard about it.

But that was one of those where being in the room and hearing the way that her breathing became really labored and knowing that there wasn't a lot they could do.

They ended up moving her a little bit.

And it did address that to the point where actually for the last day, it sounded like she was literally snoring.

So that was fine because then I could make jokes about that in my head.

But there when i first heard the before it was sounding like snoring that one it is wild to think of that just brought up some emotion and i and that one i i wasn't sure i don't know i don't i don't think i would have really enjoyed that if that would have gone on for another couple of days which it would have if they hadn't have been able to position her a way that she was sounding like she was snoring so that was that was pretty yeah that was tough i remember that and i think that There's some reality of, you know, it's close, you know, it's imminent.

And it's like, sometimes when you have that experience and there's other things happening, just like the snoring or just sometimes they kind of talk or they do certain things.

It's okay.

That's here we are.

We're still here.

But then there's, it's more finite.

It's more like, here we are.

This is, like I said earlier, this is in real time.

This is happening now.

And I don't know how much longer that's going to get real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, you're right.

And I will say this is so cliched.

I know that there's no, I've said a lot with clients, there's no right way to grieve.

We're all going to grieve in the way that we do.

And I love that concept.

The other cliche that I thought about often was that you hear that we don't do death well in our country.

And because we're, I don't know, we're like doing everything we can to stave off death.

We don't like to talk about death.

And I understood that more because as I was there, there was, and I think the hospice people, and I'm going to have one of them on my podcast soon because I want to talk more about that.

But it was like, I could also see that it could also be a beautiful thing, a transition.

You know, we spent these few days and I wrote a post on Facebook that I might want to share a tiny bit with you about.

Sure.

Of what I really, okay, let me pull that up real quick here.

But I think that there were things that I was glad to be there and experience, but that I also, yeah, maybe this would help somebody to know that.

That it will be uncomfortable it can be awkward it can also be funny and it can be sad and you know this part of that you can have a whole lot of different emotions at once right so i just said rest in peace mom and i said i'm grateful that wendy and i were able to be there with my dad right up to the end and i said i always thought of my dad as determined and stoic successful in business and his hobbies but as my mom transitioned from the icu to hospice i got to witness another side of him he was his quiet dedication to her his tender care through some of the most difficult and demanding days of their 58 years together.

And I said, mom continued to be mom, meaning she was going to go when she was good and ready and not a minute sooner.

And that left Wendy, my dad and me with a lot of time bedside for four days before she passed.

She was incoherent throughout that time, but a hospice worker said that hearing was the last sense to go.

So she encouraged us to talk to my mom, share stories, play music she liked.

And that ended up being the advice that I thought was amazing.

So I said, over those four days, I got to know both my parents better than I ever had.

We shared memories from their childhoods, high school years, decades of marriage.

And while we were told that based on her condition and vital signs, she could pass in any minute, she had other plans.

And so a lot of those minutes brought a lot of emotions and a lot I didn't expect.

And so I put here at the end, I said, now I can't help wondering if she was hanging on so that I could have those days with my dad to see the strength in his tenderness and realize that moving forward, it's him and me and then his grandkids and a great grandson.

So then I looked at that whole experience then of, okay, I never would have had that experience if she had not hung on.

And so that was pretty tender.

And because I had a brother die 30 years ago, so I've been the only kid for a long time.

And now it's just my dad and I, he's actually going to move down to Arizona with us.

And that was just, that was, I won't, I treasure those three or four days where we were just there bedside.

Well, see, and I love that.

I love that you, and I remember reading that, you told that, and I just thought that was so tender, especially the last part when you mentioned how you felt like that was, this was an experience that you got to enjoy with your dad.

And maybe that's why she held on longer and how you were able to look at that in such a different light.

And I think that that's what this journey is about, is how are you looking at life?

What is it?

What does this look like for you on this end?

So how's your dad doing?

How's he doing now?

I think really well.

I think really well.

Yeah, he's, I mean, he misses her in 58 years.

That's a long time.

Long time.

But I'm really glad that he's going to move down with us.

And so there's this part where I want to have a relationship with him because that's something that he and I haven't necessarily had as much of just because of, I don't know, but all kinds of different circumstances.

So I'm looking forward to that.

Yeah.

Well, good.

I think that that is fantastic.

That's, and that's where he should be.

He should be with you and your family.

Yeah.

So I remember when your daughter went through a really bad car accident.

I thought about this too.

Yeah.

And you had mentioned how, you know, you help so many people deal with their emotions and just moving through them and walk through their grief.

And I remember how much that changed you because you were on the other side, you're on the couch and how you're able to see through such, have a different perspective on when somebody is struggling like that.

So how has being in this yourself deepened your understanding of compassion and empathy?

Yeah, first of all, I feel very grateful that you remember that because that was a game changer for me.

And I would talk often about the ACT principle that I love of, oh, I'm noticing my emotions.

They are there.

I'm not trying to push them away.

And I'm inviting them to come with me.

And I made it sound like it was just so easy to do.

And then when those emotions were crushing and I didn't want to get out of bed, then I was like, oh, man, I need to go back and redo all those podcasts.

It's like, hey, hey, those are OK.

All right.

The times where you can invite them with you and you eat a whole bag of Reese's and don't exercise for a couple of days, you know that.

OK, I get it now.

So I thought about that often as this was happening.

And it really was more of the, okay, yeah, what am I going to learn?

What's my experience going to be?

And I thought about, I wondered, would the experience with Alex, because I think that was four years ago, maybe four or five years ago.

I wonder if that would have been different.

But then it got to the circular logic.

Because of that experience, I did a whole lot.

I went on a deep dive for the next couple of years of really understanding emotions.

Even as a therapist, I feel like I should have probably had a better relationship with emotions before then.

But then it's been really learning where they are at, what they're trying to tell me, inviting them in.

They've been messengers since childhood.

I've shoved them down.

I'm the adult.

So I think that whole experience led me on this journey to figure out the emotions.

So then sitting there with my mom, I think that's what helped me be that much more aware of the emotions.

So I love that you asked that because I've thought about this because let's say that that hadn't happened with Alex.

I would imagine this probably would have been the experience where then I would have had the, oh, man, that's not so easy to just say, here they are.

Here's emotions.

Invite them to come with me.

So because of that experience, I think I was able to really experience this event and all the emotions and sit with them and thank them and acknowledge what were they trying to tell me versus just, oh, wow, I actually have them.

So this is your first time yeah i think that that is i really really appreciate that because i think so often we always think how come i haven't experienced this before or how come whatever it might be and i think because you weren't ready that wasn't when you're in a place that you're ready and you're you're receptive and accepting of what's coming and you can handle things in a way that you can teach, you can learn, you can grow.

And now look where you've taken it to the next level with this experience with your mom.

So I think it's so good.

Yeah.

And I have been saying lately, too, that, you know, when we didn't know what we didn't know, then, of course, we didn't know it.

And then you learn something new and it's you learned it because you didn't know it before.

I'm going to sound a little nerdy here for a second.

So then at some point, though, then, well, that means then there's lots of other things that I don't know.

And so I can't wait to learn them as well.

And it does leave me more kind of genuinely curious about the future.

So not that I want to have all the the challenging experiences, but I know I'm very confident now.

Though, that I will make it through them and I can learn something from them.

And I can, you know, really believe that apparently all these things truly will be for my good.

When before it's like, really, this is going to be for my good, but now, okay, I believe it.

Right.

Exactly.

So now I can believe it.

And it doesn't mean that it's going to feel great all the time, but I have confidence now that overall, all right, this will be for my good.

I'm pretty confident.

I think that's so good.

And going along with what is good for you, when people would ask you what they could do to help you or let me know if you need anything.

Yeah.

How hard was that?

Yeah.

I think people are definitely genuine, but there's also this space of they have no idea what to do.

Totally.

So when people reached out, was there something more meaningful?

What actually helped you okay trisha it's so good we haven't talked in a while it's so good to be back and i your questions are so good because i thought about this one a lot and it does go back to the when somebody says oh i'm so sorry sometimes i do and i'm not i'm saying bless everyone's heart and they all mean well but i do know that sometimes i've said that because i'm like oh well man hey i'm so sorry and i'm almost like calling it drive-by validation like you know hey so sorry and I feel better.

I did a good thing.

I told them I'm sorry.

But I'm not really thinking about what that person maybe needs.

So I have tried to be so much more genuine about and you send a nice text to them.

Hey, how are you?

Because it's, oh, okay.

Sorry for your loss sounds, it's the right thing.

But, I don't know.

How are you?

But even then, I want to be like, I'm fine.

So I've had a couple of people.

Yeah, right?

I was genuine with you.

It was funny.

One of my clients I talked to this morning, I hadn't talked to since, and he had texted me.

He's like, man, that really sucks.

And I told him, hey, that was actually spot on.

That was like.

Yeah, that's really hard.

Or that must have been a bummer or something.

And I was like, oh, that was.

Yeah, it really was.

And it was really interesting.

And I still remember I had just started grad school.

So we're talking 20 something years ago.

And my neighbor, one of my neighbor, his wife had passed away and just like the day or two before.

And it was like, I just remember we were almost all like out and we saw him and everybody was like, Hey, I'm so sorry.

Let me know if there's anything I can do.

And I had just started grad school.

So of course I'm a full fledged therapist in my mind.

But thankfully the professor had said something about ask them what that's or how they are feeling and man it was so awkward but i did and i just went to him and i just said hey what is what have the last couple of days been like and he just broke down he's like oh they've been so hard and i've done this and i can't believe you know and i was like oh that almost like that works that.

You know instead of me just going like hey i'm so sorry for your loss i mean if there's anything i can do because that just again great words right but i don't think that person is going to tell me that they need anything right so what would you say to someone that is in the middle of a loss or they're grieving that could be helpful for them to have those actions those words or Or how can they reach out to them?

Both sides.

How could the person, what do you think that they could share with people that are asking?

And what do you think the person that is asking, what can they say?

Yeah.

Okay.

I grabbed, I interviewed the author of this book a little, it's a kid's book on grief.

It's Ashley Boisson.

She's amazing.

And this is a one day, a child's journey through grief and loss.

And she was on, Ashley's such an amazing person, but she was on Dateline.

Her husband had been murdered.

And, but I mean, the story, and she tells it, but the murdered by her affair partner's husband.

So that's why it made it a children's story.

Yeah, exactly.

But that part isn't in the book.

But when I interviewed her, though, she had such a good point about this.

And I thought about where she was just saying that somebody would say, hey, tell me about your mom.

Or she was like to kids.

I was like, oh, man, tell me what you remember about your dad.

Or what was his name?

So people want to talk about it.

I think if someone would have even said something like, tell me a funny story about the last few days.

Oh, then I'm in.

Oh, I've got funny stories.

I've got one that I don't know if I can truthfully tell legally, but it's so funny.

Oh my gosh.

But for me, it is like, hey, anything crazy happen or anything that you didn't expect.

That's why I think this interview has been so fun because it's just, oh, it's like telling stories about things because I like those because I know we like to be heard and understood.

And so when somebody is just like, I'm so sorry and let me know if I can do anything again, it's okay.

I appreciate it.

That is a human interaction.

But, man, what's that been like?

Then I'm in.

I'm on board.

Which is also hard because as a therapist, I don't, I've also thought recently, did I get into this so that I don't have to talk about myself?

Maybe that's it.

Because then, you know, when somebody turns it around on me, well, no, that's not what you're doing.

You're paying so I can ask you questions.

You know, so it is still kind of funny.

Right.

Exactly.

We could go on and on.

This has been so.

Sorry to be so vulnerable, but I have a client at three and a half to go to the bathroom.

Oh, I know.

And that's so rude.

but I just so fun no I do I just appreciate your time here and I appreciate that there's something about the beauty of grief because it doesn't ask for permission but it also leaves us with a deeper sense of presence and I think that's the important part is we just need to be present for one another we need to focus on when there is loss when things feel strange and funny or there's sweet human moments or whatever it is, what can we do?

We don't want to make things awkward.

We want to be able to reach out.

We want to, and I think of one of the things that might be helpful is maybe send a text, a sweet moment that maybe if you knew the person that you could share.

I think that those things are meaningful.

And I remember when I'd get cards for my dad and they would send a little bit of a, I remember when.

And that actually was really helpful because I appreciated how people perceive my dad and just some stories that were really important to me.

And I still think about them.

So I think that those things are going to be, I just wonder just in my situation, how that could be more helpful.

And I think everybody wants to say, I'm sorry, but sometimes those words are just, what do they really mean?

But it's like, what else do you say?

No, it's true.

I'm sharing my condolences, whatever it may be, but it's, I remember when.

And I think that we just went to a funeral just a few minutes ago and I know you need to go.

But it was just such a celebration of life.

And that's all they brought up or all the memories of what they experienced with this person.

And they were beautiful and funny and happy.

And it wasn't this depressing.

Oh, my gosh, this is awful.

It was a wonderful experience.

I like what you said, though, about the grief not asking for permission.

That really hit because it's like, yeah, nobody said, hey, when's a good time for your mom to pass away if you need to get in here?

Because, you know, in that one, I might even take that one from you.

Yeah, like I always say, Tricia, wait, what do I say?

Grief doesn't ask for permission.

Yeah, that's what I always say.

yeah grief doesn't ask for permission yeah and i love it i have to think about what i said i don't even that's good it was really good yeah i have to go back and listen to the recording i'll put that in the show notes for you how's that okay thank you all right trisha always always a pleasure we'll see you in a couple of weeks i can't wait to be back together all right thank you so much have a great day we're thinking of you.

Music.