Warning.

Today's episode cad spoilers for the final season and the series finale of Stranger Things.

You warned.

O What Happy New Year.

My name is Jason Concepcion And on Mersey.

Night, We're back.

We're back.

It's the new year.

Everything's great, everything is perfect.

World is going on.

And welcome back to kes revision of the podcast where we dive thee to your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture coming from my heart.

We're bringing you three episodes week last News.

In today's episode, Joel and Aaron are joining us to deep dive into the sensory deprivation tank to react to Stranger Things season five finale.

Together, we'll talk through what worked, what didn't, the ambiguous ending, the cultural impact of the show over the last ten years, and how it looked in a fit, which is where I saw it.

But first into the century deprivation type.

We go in.

Okay, let's bring in super producers Joe Ellen Aaron to discuss the long I was actually stunned when I realized how long this show has been crazy streaming.

It's been a decade.

A decade.

We dive into the final season.

Aaron Jowell, Welcome.

How's he goesy?

Excited to be here and to talk about our favorite upside down?

Is this the only upside down?

I guess it's the only one.

Yeah, it's the only?

Well is this?

I mean that's kind of my questions.

Well, let's quickly discuss.

I will say there were no I personally, here's my takeaway quick take.

I have no issues that didn't exist in previous seasons with the season finale, and I liked it.

I thought the finale worked well.

I thought it probably I thought it worked the best for me than almost any episode of this season, probably almost any episode of the season.

I'm a sucker for nostalgia.

I liked it.

Uh, what is everybody's quick take?

Rosie start?

I saw it in the movie theater at first.

I saw it in the Egyptian and on New Year's Day, and I have to say, seeing it on the big screen, and we'll get into this later, was an extremely different experience and overall a very positive one.

In that theater, it was very clear that this was like endgame for a lot of people, and also visually it looked so much better on the big screen than the finale looked on the TV.

And that to me is a problem which we'll get into later, but generally I went in with lowish expectations and the spectacle of it all and the huge big screen and taking my friends who loved the show made me enjoy it a lot more, which was a nice way to end it.

Aaron and Joel, how do you feel an act?

Yeah, I'm basically exactly the same as you, Jason.

Like anything that didn't work for me in the show before, this didn't change that.

But this worked really well within the context of the show, and I thought, like Rosie, you know you brought up endgame.

I kind of thought the final fight against Vecna the mind flare had hints of the first Avengers movie, where we have very different scopes of what everyone can do, but they all feel somewhat useful at some point in that fight, which I enjoy, and.

They come together with that skills.

Yeah, so I was very happy with it.

It was the perfect thing to sit down at like eleven am January first and watch.

On the couch.

I think, Joelle, what about you?

I'm met at all of you.

I think it's rude as hell.

I like, I had a lot of issues.

I was not having fun.

I thought the length of a Finelle maybe want to scream.

And I had just seen fire and and I was like, I've never met.

A person who's like, make it shorter, thank me.

To be sure.

I love long pod.

I'll listen to a three hour pod.

I love an epically long movie.

But these two experiences back to back was absolute torture.

And then on top of that, y'all not giving me like answers.

I'm just out here too, wondering if my main character is alive or not.

I it's sense, and you brought brown people back to kill them.

Okay, we're gonna talk about that, so let's okay, let's talk about that.

Let's talk about some of the unanswered questions, because I think we got some nice closure.

I quite enjoyed the extended coda, but let's talk about the un well.

I want to no, no, no, I just want to quickly bring something up about the coda, because I also really enjoyed it.

I love it.

I thought it was actually so good and I was like, oh, Lord of the Rings, blah blah blah.

But then I went back and rewatched it when I got home to be like, okay, why do we leave everyone?

And Erica isn't in it again.

I think this is another issue about brown people in this show.

And they're like, no, she was at the how they no, she's at the graduation, but she doesn't get like, what's happening next prologue And she also isn't in the next generation of kids playing D and D as their leader, so she basically just gets left out of what happens next.

That's a big oversight.

And then Duffer brothers were like, she's an independent woman.

We can't tell her what to do.

It's like, she's your character, what do you mean?

Her and Murray disappearing essentially from the extended nothing on them is weird even keep in like I mean.

Murray had no no.

I agree Murray was weird to keep in, but if you keep him in.

He threw the fucking touchdown pass with the grenade, like there's someone else did They could have done that, and they should have maybe done that, but like to have Murray involved to that level and then he's gone is weird.

And I will say, Okay, generally, I think that I boil down to a lot of the ambiguousness, the unanswered questions, the unclosed loops down to a kind of core philosophy of Netflix, you know, with with other streamers, other studios, HBO for instance, there's a kind of ruthless ethos of you know, we're storytellers and that means stakes, and that means your loved ones.

Your beloved ones will die occasionally, and maybe often Netflix is like, we're here, We're up the panacea, We're here to make you feel good.

Like as a core philosophy, we're looking at numbers to see what the fans love, and if they love that, we want to give them more of it.

And so I feel like.

I think a lot of my enjoyment of the finale is that I knew going in maybe ain't nobody to die.

It was weird, and they're gonna do some bullshit where it's like they bring back the sister you never knew about the sister of color that we have no like character building on, and she's gonna die and you're not gonna care about that because that's what we do here, That's what the numbers told us is gonna work.

And I think a lot of it is lower is to an extent, lowered expects.

Well, I y, I kind of like what you're saying that too, because I do think that one of the most interesting things coming out of strange of things is gonna be like I mean, and there's gonna be books written on this.

But the notion of like TV made via algorithm, and I think you touch on that because we don't know how Netflix gets their data, and the things that worked and that they see as working do come from like my taste space.

So for example, a character I never usually like, right is Nancy.

Don't have any interest in her.

I think the love interest the love triangle is try like, never interested.

I like that she was a journalist, but it was derivative Lois Lane, who cares no.

In the finale on the big screen in the upside down dimet well not upside down in the dimension X planet, which many people have been rinsing them for looking like Lincoln Park.

When you watch it on the Netflix, it looks like but not on the TV, it actually didn't look like that.

And you know what worked really well for me is like Nancy in Eddie Munson's old Wig, basically confirmed it's the same wig from multiple shots at this point, her in that wig walking through this dusty dystopian kind of landscape with her big fucking gun just shooting people.

That shit worked on the big screen.

I was watching her thinking you could be in a Terminator movie.

This is the nostalgia they learned from and worked within that worked for me.

I think the problem is, as this is something we talked about the original too It movies, I think often nostalgia is a chore.

Is also a chance for them to go, well, you know what didn't work back then inclusion, or you know what did work back then?

Bringing back because look, the other thing about the Carly situation, which for me is a big issue because as we know, I'm one of it, it was the fact was it sucks.

It sucks, and also not just that.

I do not believe for a second that that was ever the plan.

I think that they brought her back because everyone says, hey, why didn't you bring her back?

Who is she?

She's useless, and because people didn't like her, they killed her.

I think, in its own way, this is another fan service, and I fucking hate that because actually, anything I think that's really good about Lost Sister originally is we do get the interior lives of all these different kids, and it's not just about them fighting the minds flair.

You actually got to know who they were here.

We know nothing about Carli.

She's just a sage brown woman who's gonna kill herself for a white lady.

And I think that filmmaking by algorithm and the idea of nostalgia can both push us forward into new cool versions of stuff, not saying Stranger Things did that, honestly, but it can also stick us in the old tropes.

And I think the Karli Erica stuff for me felt like that.

But Joelle, it was one thing that worked for you, and I do want to hear about it because I think you did a great job of laying out kind of how well they built in the easter eggs that did work and the long term stuff that came in from season one onwards.

Yeah, So my holiday was spent mostly watching like Heated Rivalry and The Stranger Things finale and going on the internet.

You want to talk nostalgia.

I was like, we're back, baby, We're talking TV twenty four to seven, three sixty.

I got new memes, I've got hidden Easter eggs, I've got three good jillion interviews to watch.

It was an amazing time just to be online and loving TV.

And while I didn't have a good time watching the andalely, rewatching it through the internet's eyes was more rewarding.

Watching folks get excited.

You know.

The thing I think I picked up most was dustin graduation speech, which was kind of weird when you don't know how they ended high school.

Really there's like a.

Year and still graduated.

She studied so hard in Okay, she was still conscious.

She had all the time in the cave.

Hard knocks.

If she sat in classes when she was hanging out with the parents back in their high school days, she could easily graduate.

I digress.

His speech is pretty.

Much forbade him what Eddie says he wished he would be able to do when he would graduate a couple of seasons ago.

Uh, there were things like the clothing that they imagine.

L we're talking about clothing, but the clothing elawares in that final scene, it's her same color theory as when she first appears in their light.

So this idea of her innocence.

And there's like a bunch of like little moments like that where if you're a deep fan and you've been watching regularly, like you, I think hearing from the fans and how rewarded they felt.

I was like, well, it worked for the people it needed to work for.

And that's how I felt about Five Nights of Freddy's too, Like my literal review for Five Nights of Freddy's two is like huge win for kids who watch YouTube blow videos, and that is the demographic.

So it's like, this is why people love that movie.

This is why people love the show.

I love that the one that I thought was really funny that I'm not gonna lie my old head, Like, if I was gonna have an Adjason aka Stephen A Smith of X ray Vision Style BRANDT, mine would be about the Beckner's like Castle Slash, kind of like Giant Spider on the Dark Crystal POSTA bitch that one it is.

But also if you actually look in season one, it's just the fucking dark Crystal poster.

Guys.

The Dark Crystal posters already always looked like that, and they just made something that looked like that.

For anyone who doesn't know what Rosie's referring to.

In season one, they have the Dark Crystal poster and people were showing screenshots of that saying, look, they planned it all along.

They knew this was going to be in the final season and obviously not the case.

It just they designed it to look like I.

Love and I will say this is my defense of the ambiguous ending too.

I do think something they understand about the show and why they can do stuff like that and utilize stuff that they've put in before and try and tie it together in a way that makes sense, which is kind of what you should be doing with the TV show.

But you know, is just also because like the love and the fandom of the show will put those clues together, and I have to say that ambiguous ending for me, I did think and look, maybe this is because I'm someone who had to cover this show extensively in its first few seasons and we were up in the middle of the night our friend BJ.

We love her.

I love how you're discussing this like you were on like an Alaskan.

It was like it was.

Like three weeks time you were in the Russian covering with him the Stranger.

Things, covering Stranger Things first three seasons.

Bro, they will not send you a screen now, and I'm saying, we didn't get screeners for the see the guys, this is why we're doing it on New Year's Eve, some of our other incredible podcast colleagues got up on Christmas Day and podcasted in their pajamas.

Stranger Things have been making it hard for journalists to do their job for a long fucking time.

And back in the day, it was like we would have a team of twenty people and we would be there and each of us would be like, Okay, you watched this episode one in the morning, and you do this take, and da da da da.

It was crazy, And I think that did help, and also all the fandom and everything that helped keep the show alive, and in a way, I did think it was nice to have Micis essentially and the show with a theory, like a theory like everyone else has done.

When we come back, we're going to talk the open ended ending of Stranger Things, the finality, Okay, we're back here.

In my mind are the biggest like kind of open questions of the season.

One is Vecna's main plan.

It's still kind of open ended to me, and in particular whether it's Vecna or the Mind Flayer who's actually the boss, because I think what we've I know and I think what we learned in the final kind of reveals of Arthur.

Of mister Kreole's kind of biography is that it appears that it was the mind Flare all along and two and this is the big one.

Eleven is she did, I think because it's Netflix, No no, and.

She just signed six feel contract with them.

She's she's not dead until she turns down the contract and then she and I'll be proud of her, and she does.

But in your minds, in everybody's minds, where are we with that?

And do you have any open ended questions that you would love answer?

Rosie, I do want to start just with the notion of who was behind it all, because again at home absolutely did not understand and watched it twice at the Egyptian cinema on the big screen.

There is a big focus on the moment when Will is connecting psychically with Henry and saying, hey, we are you going to help us?

Blah blah blah, and he's like, you don't understand.

It was the mind Flayer and I was just a young kid, but now we are one, and I think, like, because his name is one.

But I also think the implication is at some point he chose to be part of the mind flayer and so but it's it's like, but also the thing to me is like that I really want to know about And I understand that this is, you know, explained in the play, and there are many articles where you can write it, and a lot of people had seen the play or read about the plane knew that the particles in the suitcase were part of the play.

But I'm sorry, guys, there's only so much mcguffining that you can do.

And in my opinion, the idea that all of this happened because a kid found a suitcase in a cave.

You didn't think that was a supercase of mind that had just come from alien Like, No, that's silly.

I'm sorry.

You would have been better off.

There was so much interesting stuff that could have been done with the notion of like the kids and the pied piper of it all and why he was you know, but this notion of like kids' brains all week.

But it's like, but your brain wasn't weak when you were a kid, because you were able to control the mind players, So like, why did you get that?

I did?

Like, that's the mind players mentality, Like it doesn't really make sense.

I so I but I do think, I do think it's meant to be that the at one point he chose to be part of it and so he could never get out.

This is my main sticking point with this.

The entire finale really.

Okay.

If they had to boil it down to, like what is the issue, Like, what's the problem with how this ends?

Why don't you enjoy it?

It's this.

I'm a person who I love an open ended stories.

I was thinking about, Uh, what's that?

Amy Adams HBO show is based off a novel.

She thinks her mom's like an awful person, but it's her sister.

Sharp Objects, Thank you, Carmen.

So Sharp Objects gives you both.

A definitive answer and a good jillion question, And it's satisfactory because the main question has been answered and it opens up a lot more questions.

That's what an ambiguous open ending does.

And you're like, oh, I never thought it could end that way?

What does that mean?

For everything I've seen?

Let me go back and rewatch.

It is compelling and very interesting.

I don't still know next to nothing about Vecna.

We saw his high school classmate chop his head off, and there's no recognition between him being like, wait, it's me or her being like.

Holy shit, it's you.

Like there's just there's so much threads they've built up into a story that gives you no kind of catharsis or conclusion or even a revelation about the person.

And because there's none of these like growth spaces for you the viewer.

It lands like a thud.

You're like, what are we?

Why did any of this just happen?

Why does he eat all?

That's a lot of kids t wrangle.

What was the point of all of them?

And I just if the whole thing is about, like it's confronting their trauma and trying to figure out like who you are through your trauma, I think retraumatizing the kids right exactly by losing their friend, does it give us any kind and then not giving us any kind of actual growth or confrontation of that.

But maybe it was this just I just felt so like Bereft, I was like, I don't think these kids are gonna be okay.

I think we're just throwing them back into the world with more trauma.

I would say.

I also, I also do think as much as I love the epilogue and I'm a lord of the Rings epilogue defender.

I would also say, like, have a bit of imagination, guys like your ending is that they get married, and then the ending for another one is like he writes a book based on this, Like, come on, we knew that.

Guys like stand by me.

Okay, see they don't have to be nostalgia.

I have a lot more to say about that particular piece, but Aaron, in terms of the open end and ending, the unanswered questions, anything in particular sticking your craw on how did it hit you?

I liked it a lot.

I particularly love the way that they tied again.

I am someone who loves D and D.

I love that they sort of ham fisted their way back into D and D at the end.

They really I have so many complaints, whether it be he's not a sorcerer, because the sorcerer was not a true class in D and D at this time in the eighties, unless one of them is a time traveler.

So also he's probably more like a warlock if anything.

But all of that aside, I like this idea that yeah, we're telling stories this whole time, and for the ending, I'm going to come up with something.

This is as a DM that I think may have happened here, and I'm going to use it in the D and D game.

I thought that worked so well.

Now do I care if Eleven's alive or not?

No?

Actually, like the story's over, I'm fine there not knowing which side.

Is your heart can stop your heart to say.

My heart says that she is alive and that she's walking by those two waterfalls, But I don't really that's for me.

What was there a third Okay, okay, so yeah, the third waterfa but I don't really that's not changing how I was impacted by the rest of the epilogue by that end, because regardless she's making a sacrifice.

It doesn't matter if her sacrifice is she's actually dying or she's choosing to just never be able to see her friends and family again.

It's a sacrifice way.

Which is why like that?

Why do that?

Can I just does she need to do that?

Because because she needs to avoid the military?

Who I mean, sure they couldn't find her the previous year when she was hiding in the military zone, and they did so well getting in and out of doors all season.

They were really the best at that.

Let me tell you that, No, I mean they just needed something.

I don't know, I'm not that concerned.

I am kind of with you in that I didn't just kind of reiterate I didn't have these like high expectations of the story telling, execution.

I'm sure your things before this.

So I was not like feeling as if the stakes were ever gonna be there fully, that they were ever going to have the guts to kill somebody that we had spent multiple seasons with, you know, like and Eddie Munson is as far as they'd ever go.

Yes, you get to know him over a season, then we off the guy and you love it too, But we're never gonna give you a multi season core character death.

It's never not for real, like not in a way that's explicit.

And so I am kind of with you, although rationally I agree with everything.

Joelle is like, yeah, I think go ahead.

Objectively, you're right, Joelle, I was gonna say, interestingly, the finale, specifically the reveal that Owl was alive, people were like, ah, like, but the one that people went crazy for, like the moments that actually I feel like paid off in the cinema Lest the Future, Steve is a sex teacher, people love that and obviously they love that he's his coach and everything, but also it was really ironically it was a Steve moment.

And I think again, this shows they knew some of what fans want, but they didn't lean into the biggest things they want, which is, you know, family and friendship and community.

There wasn't a lot of that.

But like, dude, when Steve fell off the big tower, yeah, and then Jonathan saved him and it went black on the screen.

When it came back and he was alive and it was Jonathan, people stood up and cheered like they cared.

That's the thing that's funny is like the moments that were the huge moments, I don't even think the Duffer brothers fully realized them because that was people were more excited than that about Eleven.

You know, the people did like it when Eleven said I'm not Sarah and gave back the bracelet, people were like, oh.

That was another thing that kind of pissed me off, was like, why is this Why is this guy's entire motivation, this character that we've never met, Like can you can we can we build in something with people that existed the fucking story I'm.

A hopper hater.

I think it's a terrible character.

I wish he died.

I think he should have died.

I don't know.

I only the only reason that he should have died he should have died.

I mean, I mean, his big his big epilogue thing is like, I can't wait to be a cop, maybe in a new city where they save me more.

Also, can I just say we got to talk.

I want to talk more about that moment too, but I think we'll talk about it during our theory consideration.

But but yeah, I mean, I just thought that was incredibly disappointing.

I also think again the show not understanding think about this right back in the first two seasons, the biggest straw to that show were win On a writer obviously, and David Harbor.

He kind of became the breakout star.

Now people just about the kids.

We don't care about them.

Her chopping off the head and saying, don't fuck with you, fucked with the wrong family.

It was so like Harry Potter, like not my daughter, bitch coded, like it wasn't even didn't have a power of its own moment.

I think that I could have done without the adults at all.

And I actually ironically think that the l stuff would have been so much better if it was just her and Carly.

Hopper is the reason Carli is dead.

Hopper could have picked Cary up and put her on his other shoulder, and he didn't.

He just left her behind.

No, he went running to find bandages or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go look for else back.

Yeah, right, bro.

I did think emotional scene wise, I really liked Dustin and Steve on the stairwell when Dustin is like I can't afford to lose someone else.

That really hit for me in a way that I had been kind of annoyed with Dustin early in the season, like going off on his own and going to the graveyard, so that I thought worked really really well, and especially because it was in opposition to Nancy and Jonathan's proposal in the melting Room that I just kind of thought didn't work for me.

But I thought Dustin was crazy.

Okay, I did any emotional moment hit for you?

Was there one that worked?

Okay?

The credit and I got to change.

Okay, here's the thing.

Their last game of D and D.

As somebody who regularly plays D and D hit stupid hard.

And they were like, oh, so we're just done.

I was like, there's always another way, boys, I know you got like dig deep.

I loved how excited Max was and it feels like her first time playing and it was really sweet.

And I just thought they got the chemistry.

But it's when they put those books on the shelves.

We keep all of our books at my friend's house, so all of our notes are together, all of our figurines are together, they're on display.

I was like, this is accurate, this is right, this is real friendship, and it's what it about.

It got to me.

I like the Dustin h moment on the stairs I thought was good.

I even thought, even though I found it a little confusing, the unproposal worked pretty well.

I thought it was like some of the best writing in these last couple of episodes.

I think it did set up one of the only good choices, like one of the only I think, like actually progressive choices that people can look back at this show and say, hey, they did that, which sounds crazy because it's not that crazy, but it's very fucking rare in a YA show to have a love triangle and end it with the women being able to just have a life and not choose one of them that never happens.

That is actually pretty vanical.

And I think that the unproposal and the realization, and I really like the conversation of Stephen Jonathan in the car where they were both like, this isn't gonna work, Like, this is not gonna work for us, this is not so like we just Nancy just gets to go and live her own life.

You know, she's not our win, our prize.

That conversation was the one I listened a lot of these let's have our final character resolution conversation moments felt like a checklist, but most of them felt good for me.

The Jonathan that one Jonathan Steve, it felt a little bit like guilding the lily.

To me, like a little bit too fast.

Fat guys, Yes, guys that have been rivals that long.

Like I loved their rivalry.

It was very fun.

I think you could have it was a little bit too like therapy speak, like let's put our cards on the table for what felt like the previous kind of established characters that those guys were.

I like going to talk about it that much.

But I also think this part of another problem that we've talked about with Stranger Things, because the characters look so old and are so old you kind of have Jonathan and Steve.

Those actors are like they're in their thirties, you know they and they want to they.

Want to they're brushing that hair forward or brushing do you know what I mean, they've been doing that.

It's that.

It's that one really incredible tweet that somebody did and it was like, I love Stranger Things, that young cast and the retired Japanese detective who hangs around with them, and it's just Jonathan.

It's like, yes, But.

Like I think that when the characters are older than like that and they've actually aged up throughout, I bet both of those guys were like, we're having this fucking conversation, Duffers, like you're not having us out here as thirty year olds, like oh, fight you for her?

Like I think that the whole aging out changes how the conversations have to do as well.

But yeah, okay, so I will say and obviously you know I was.

I was at this with one of my nephews and one of my best friends and we were we were there and having great time.

Nick was also there because he you know, and he does not get stranger things.

And we were talking about the jis room and I just want to say I have to say, and this is funny because Nick is not like a he's not like a conspiracy theory person.

He's not like an online person particularly.

But it was so funny because watching the show with him anyway is hilarious.

Watching that finale, he had not seen the middle two episodes, so he did not know about them, right, So he's literally sitting next to he was two seats away from me, and then he was looking at me and at the end he was like, Okay, so now you're telling me there's a room made of jizz and the kids are having these phallic things pulled out of their mouths.

He's like, what are they doing to these kids?

Why is it?

Why are they sexualizing the kids?

Why does the thing have to go in the mouth, Why can't they go in the belly butt?

And why is there a jiz room?

And I was like, you know what, You're not wrong.

I was like, actually, these are all weird questions.

The weird choice too.

Hide on the side sounds that were coming with the little two things.

I just think we could have gone belly button, forehead, back.

Of the head.

We have a lot of, like a lot of options.

I thought mouth was a weird choice.

There, especially with the kids staying it's always the like eleven twelve year old babies.

It's And then on top of that, I think the just with his hand as he does to eleven, as he does to Will, he doesn't need to be attached to them.

It's weird.

And then too, I think, you know, contextually within this show, like Murray being there was strange.

It's even weirder when he starts making like so many sex jokes around literally children.

I'm like, wariy, this girl supposed to be twelve years old.

Why are we making dick jokes.

It's weird.

Long here again, I didn't.

Age and totally what we were going for.

And maybe, you know, Jason, you mentioned in the group chat that like, perhaps the audience has outgrown the show, and the show made a very strong choice to say we're not going to do a time jump.

They wanted to end like at the end of the eighties, so they literally couldn't do a time jump and keep their time frame.

And I think it messed with a lot of like contextually and thematically with the show overall, I don't feel quite right at the end.

Here, let's talk about the part of the epilogue.

I think that kind of hit the hardest and really is like the meat of the thing, which is Mike's last Dungeon Master campaign with the core group everybody in tears, says he's revealing what happened, and then you discover he's going to be a writer, and then we bring in the spinoff kids for you know, for a story to be told later.

I found this to be a really interesting framing and one that listen, I'm going to ignore the fact that with so many open ended kind of untied not like and strings that are just like left dangling, I think including this Mike the writer piece opens the doorway, I think to an interesting, slash confusing, slash, muddy and potentially like unsatisfying perspective, which is, what if it was in the mind Flare all along.

What if it's Mike all along and we are actually understanding this story through Mike's gains, at which I think is clear they're kind of going through.

I think that's the implication.

But the important thing, the important thing is to recognize the difference between us watching what Mike's version was and then the argument that people have been making online that because of the lighting you couldn't see Nancy Wheeler's next cause the whole thing was just an imaginary game and they were at the end of it, and I was like, no.

It's not that.

It's not that.

But my I think seeing Mike's version, yes.

And that's exactly right.

I think what we're seeing is Mike recounting this crazy thing that happened when he was a kid to his friends as part of a story that he's telling, whether in the context of the D and D campaign or he's written a book.

I can confirm yes, okay, because at the end of the movie released version, you had to wait till all the This may be the same in Netflix you make you had to wait till all the credits were over.

There is a Stranger Things D and D handbook that just says Stranger Things, and it says by Mike Wheeler.

So the implication is he wrote some kind of D and D handbook, And I think, also, my guess I so, so, I'm glad you brought up.

There's licensing issues.

There.

Licensing issues works, but you know what it is.

It just says Stranger Things.

It doesn't say D and D.

It's like a role playing game, you know.

But but I would also say, like, I think this brings up a good conversation point, which is what is the spinoff?

Because obviously the kids feel like the spin off, but the Guffer Brothers have said the spin off is gonna deal deal with the particles in the suitcase and also but also it's also going to be new characters that we haven't met.

So I love the idea.

This is my my high concept theory.

I don't think this is what it is.

I would love the idea that we get kids in like the zeros playing the Stranger Things game who live in Hawkins and start to put together that this is actually based on real stuff that happened in Hawkins.

I think that's a cool I think that's going to be the idea.

But this is my current even though the stuff of others have said it's about the suitcase.

My current theory is I don't think, unfortunately that they set up the town of mon Talk and win Owner and David Harbor going there for no reason.

The show was originally called The mon Talk Projects it's in mont Talk.

There is all this rumors about because there's an old government space out there.

It's very mk ultra coded.

Also, let me there's Farm Island Disease Research Center that is off the coast of Long Island and Montalk, and many believe well Sumble there is an active conspiracy theory that that's where lined.

Is eased in front and many other kind of things.

And also interestingly, the reason I felt like this was very brazen is because if you have kept up with the Stranger Things, and this is not me mid taking either side, because me and Jason have talked about this extensively.

Many people have many different ideas.

But there is a guy who sued the Duffer brothers who said he presented them a deck called Montalk that was essentially Stranger Things, and then they basically later pitched it to Netflix.

Right the original pitch deck says Montalk.

I think that this is them saying, hey, what if we went to the Sauce instead of Hawkins, instead of this pretend version.

This was so popular, we could do a version in Montalk.

Mont looks beautiful.

There's lots of interesting class issues there because it's like this part of Long island that super boujiem loads of people who have rich lived there and holiday there, but also these people who still live there and work in the places.

It could be really interesting.

I just don't want to see David Harbot.

I don't want to see I love Way out of Ryda.

You can be in it, but like, I don't need to see the adult story.

But I do think the mon Talk thing is my most realistic version.

And then they'll find out, oh, the particles came from the Montalk lab, like lime disease or whatever.

That's my boring.

I think it's gonna happen.

Theory, Aaron, you have one of my favorite theories, so please just yeah.

So originally they were saying, you know, we will have a scene that hints at what the spinoff is going to be.

And when they sat down to play that final game of D and D and they're playing what I assume is Curse of Strade, which is a campaign where you're fighting about this legendary vampire, I was like, oh my god, they're going to do a spinoff where it's like vampiric creatures from the upside down, And I think I love love that, And then you know, like.

On the planet, we didn't see any of the Okay.

Well, Joe, we're going to talk about that.

Aaron.

Let me quickly ask you then, I love this.

I've played a little bit of supernatural kind of coded D U, D and D.

Why you are more in that vampireic space and there's like blood oaths and stuff.

As somebody who's actually played a lot of D and D and that got you excited.

What could we expect law wise and world wise if they were going to pursue that in a D and D space.

Yeah, I don't even want to go into it because I think I just know I'm wrong because.

Of them talking so much about the briefcase.

I know, I know it would be amazing, and I think, hey, it would explore a lot of really interesting things like also they had you know, one of the biggest things I think with any kind of like video game or role playing game whatever with vampires is when a character that is in your party is turned and you lose, you lose someone to the enemy, And I think that would be a really interesting thing for them to have been able to sort of explore again, because they do that a little with Will, but not quite Vampire would.

I really like Rosie's theory that it's going to be about a new cast of kids who follow the breadcrumbs in Mike's book or Mike's D and D campaign, licensing issues aside, and uncover this mystery of this crazy thing that happened that probably mirrors their own experiences.

They contact Mike or you know, adult and adult characters, and they start unraveling the mystery.

I like that idea.

I will say that one thing that I loved when the new kids came in.

I'm corny like that.

Okay, he too works?

Wow, perfect, perfect, you know, spin off, jumping off point.

If they decide to use one of these kids and I don't believe anything the Duffer brothers say, no, me not going to be this or it's going to be that, I will say, here's an issue I have though when they brought the kids in.

This show is so much about trauma and how people grapple with it, how it can empower you, but also how it's baggage if you don't figure out how to put it down at some point, and I think it's a little thematically now I'm gonna get like to very licred and nerdy.

I think it's weird thematically this that as I'm watching these kids come in for this new campaign, I'm not I felt no dread.

Story Wise, this should be like, oh no, see what happened.

I don't want these kids.

I don't want these kids to go through this again.

It should be that like the.

No no, no, no, yes.

But instead I'm like, and I was questioning it, I was like, but instead I'm like, oh, a new adventure.

I shouldn't feel.

That like picking up some random piece.

They should have picked up the demo Gorgon and like, yeah, the mind and he looks back and is like, oh, you know what, We're not going to let you play with that one that don't use that.

I think it.

I think it goes back to the fact that like everybody lived sadly.

Yes, what should have happened is like, tell me how any character significantly changed meaningfully from it's the time that it's only it really is only Steve.

Nobody Will.

Well, I mean Will came to terms with something.

Yes, I think Will sure Well, he was still gay.

He was as a cry baby, like Will evolved as a human being.

That best Will has figured out a way to talk to his friends honestly, which is, you.

Know, maybe a difficult thing we all have to learn how to do, but it.

Doesn't give oh my gosh, like look at the person he's grown into.

You know, Robin's girlfriend went from just being a candy striper to being a full on doctor part way through.

Yeah, graduated without going to say the education system is fun up, we go out.

As somebody who you know, we want so much TV, so many movies, that's what we do.

And obviously, as everyone knows in who listens to this podcast, who makes this kind of stuff, there's just so much TV out there, So obviously you were not the biggest lover of Stranger Things.

But what would they have to do after this to get you excited?

Like what is the trailer or the concept where you're like, okay, wait, I thought I was out, but they got me back in like that.

It's a max of three years later because I barely remember it enough to like carry on through this.

You cannot give five six years of delay time.

We need to go.

It's led by.

Story wise or actually release date wise.

Release date wise, it needs to be within the next three years.

Dipshit.

Derek needs to be at the forefront of whatever you're doing.

That kid is astorable.

Derek when he first appeared and now she loves him Aaron Texas After the first group of episodes, he was like, I love this kid, He's amazing.

Was like, what are you talking about?

He's so annoying, Like why do you care?

But by the end I was like, I would die for him.

He's perfect.

And when they're trying the scene when they're leaving the upside Down and and what's his name is?

With Levin and Derek is waving at him from across the.

Love, my heart is so warm.

I love them.

Yeah.

So if it's Derek at the forefront and you put Derek in a position where I'm like, oh no, oh my god, don't bring back the military this time.

I have no idea why they were here at all except to appear to be obstructions but not actually obstruct anything.

They're so annoying.

No military, just make it Mindflare and Derek, I'm back in.

Otherwise, Bro, Derek would terrorize him.

It would just be like you know that meme of the symptoms where it's like my kidnapper throwing me away, and it's Ralph coming back into the house.

Yes, it's like after you talked for three hours, that would be like five minutes of Derek being with Vecna.

Okay, I want to ask you guys, what's your random MVP?

Because I do have one that I have had basic my random view MVP.

Bro, it's Holly's costume in Vecna Palace.

Every time I saw her, I was like, show me this fucking movie, like, I want to be in this Camtoss, I want to be put this girl in Legend, make a remake like she looks like a magical, fantastical girl who can also kill a bad guy with a knife.

Like.

I just thought that costuming was so much better than ninety percent of the costuming and the show and on the big screen two.

I was like, yes, Holly, you are a leading character in that costume.

So that was mine.

Jason, what's your random MVP?

My random MVP?

He is the nostalgia montages.

I must sucker for those, and I thought they worked.

I thought that, you know, the editing style seemed aimed at the like TikTok fan editor to just be able to like rip the montage directly from Netflix and put it on social media.

And I must.

I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff.

I think, in absence of meaningful character evolution and progress, the the simple esthetic physical evolution of seeing the characters grow up over time on screen.

Yeah, was a hit for me.

It got me.

That got me to like to be like these forget about the bat, These actual people spent ten years of their lives doing this and we were all there, which, by the way, and just let me just soft launch another theory I have, and it's like, why does media literacy kind of suck?

Like?

What is storytelling about in the twenty twenties?

And I think a lot of it can be explained by Stranger Things.

It's not about a greater story arc development, plot movement anymore.

It's about creating a feeling of we all were there and watch this thing happen, whether artificially or not.

You know, Like there's been a lot of talk about whether you know, monoculture exists anymore, and it kind of doesn't.

But it's a lot of.

Storytelling following the Internet is about understanding what is going on in a particular Internet conversation space, and I think Stranger Things has managed to harness that in a way that is really interesting and it probably tells us where things are going, because it's significantly about capturing the conversation, understanding what the fans are talking about, letting the fans feel like we're all around the TV watching this thing, talking about it, whether it sucks, whether it's good, whether it's not, and it's let and it's about the journey we take as an audience and less about who lives, he dies, who made it.

I think you make a really great point in there.

I also think that the confluence of Stranger Things and Game of Ferns coming out alongside each other really brought back that notion of a shared viewing.

I would also say, I think that you are onto something very important it Jason, and I also think this is part of the issue with the rollout of the show, is that, yeah, that is what it was, and it was an event for many many people.

I mean, I don't know if you guys know, but the way that the movie was rolled out is it was an RSVP event and you could not buy a ticket to see the movie.

You could only buy a twenty dollar concessions ticket to see it in theaters.

You had to buy the concessions because Netflix was not allowed to make money they had to pay the theaters to put it in those concession vouchers.

They saw twenty five million dollars in concessions only, and that's the numbers that the cinema gave us.

This was a huge event, and I will tell you guys from seeing it on the cinema, it was optimized to be seen in the cinema to be a monoculture moment, and Netflix did not commit to it, and I think that is ultimately going to see be seen as the biggest issue.

I think there's a version where if Netflix had had better relationships with the cinema, not something they've ever been interested in, but if they had done that, I think there's a world where this rolls out and is a five hundred million dollar release on the finale, if you roll it out properly and it is seen as the crossover that could have made TV film a thing.

I don't think Netflix cares about that, and I think that is ultimately the issue is there is a monoculture, there is a people wanting to be involved.

Netflix just assumed that doing it in the same space they'd been doing it and for ten years with what even then it had outgrown in my opinion the streaming space.

Just a quick thing.

I think my conspiracy theory on that is Netflix is you know, kind of like a C student who gets a comment on their report card, like has potential, just needs a try harder.

I think Netflix is very happy to present to theaters and the entertainment industry at large.

Hey, look what we could do if we wanted to.

So real.

Deck mode they're going to.

We could do this.

If we wanted, and so play ball with us, because we could if we.

Want real Speaking of locations like movie theaters, my MVP Jimmy fast Hands, the fact that he ran before everything started, gave up the radio station, gave our entire crew a place to hang out.

I guess it built in a secret room already that just like existed there in the passages.

Jimmy fast Hands A plus, you were the best part in that group project because you left and then came back and then let Robin do the radio show and you didn't even show up that day.

We never meet Jimmy fast Hands.

It doesn't matter MVP.

That like, because my MVP is Ted Wheeler.

He said, I'm done with all of them, but family don't love me.

I don't get no bacon.

I can't even hit these golf balls in peace.

I'm get here.

I haven't three years.

Like sexy teenagers.

Like what did they tell Ted?

Because she got up in the middle of the hospital, he we assume is still in the hospital.

And then at the end, like everyone comes back, he's at graduation.

What did they tell him anything?

Did he ask?

Does he care?

Yeah?

Earthquake?

What did they tell anybody?

But you know what they tell What did they tell the families of the five hundred soldiers who were getting down brutally in the letters?

Are they getting.

From from guys?

What about the fucking Derek's family who got kidnapped?

Does Ian points out?

Like what did not have to do with the earth quake?

Also, how about the women?

This is another thing like and I'm the pregnant women who are just dead.

But like, to me, it's so funny too, because I'm just like guys, like you made these problems for yourself.

That's the funniest thing is like you added every single thing.

Here is TV.

Who killed more people?

Vena or Hopper and Nancy combined.

Well on screen?

Hopper and well, I think well, I think Vecna theoretically, you you would expect that he killed more and we didn't see it.

They just haven't.

Yeah, but like on screen, Harbor and Nancy are drenched an.

My favorite thing is like, then Nancy just like goes and vis a journalist and she's like, yeah, I was a child soldier for fifty years, but don't worry now, I'm just the journalist, a journalist.

Who doesn't feel she needs an education to do that job.

She's like, look, I want school paper.

Good enough, guys.

I gotta say, look, as somebody who also did not get a journalism degree, I'm on Nancy side for this one.

Okay, guys.

Sometimes it just happens.

Sometimes you just fall into it.

Sometimes you don't get a degree.

Sometimes you get beaten up by the demo dogs.

Could Joelle, actually, before we get to your final MVP, ask your question which did not at any point come into my head when I watched it on the big screen and was all I could think about on TV?

Who was missing in the final battle, Joel?

Which characters that have been like a major antagonist throughout this entire thing, and we're able to show up at every point otherwise in the film and show, but which is not able.

Hit I have no idea like why the military like was just not a part of Like we have no final standoff with them.

Really, the demo Gorgans are gone, which is confusing.

We're in the we're in their planet, this is their whole where.

Is why aren't there five hundred of them swarming the radio tower?

Where send them off?

Ones like listen.

In D and D not that long ago if you don't know, giant multi headed dragon legendary, the minions that we had to get through to get to Tiamat, like it was a really a flog.

Just to try to get there.

The fact that it's just Vecna being like wo like just ship out his little fingers with his little castle, like I was just incensed.

And then on top of like, this is what listen to have a failure of both of your villains, both the military not a strong enough for with a leader that we know nothing about and care.

About the best Yeah less said about doctor k that was a ridiculous who cares?

Who fucking cares?

Awful?

But then but then also to have the Demogorgans who have been you know, really the last time we say the Demogorghans is in the hospital when they're chasing down Max and Lucas when they suddenly go dumb and they're like, can't follow a sound for some reason, Like I was incensed.

I was like they.

Did.

I would also say one of the things that I want to know, guys, how would you feel if you were the parents of one of the people that Eddie Munson is still thought to have been a serial killer of?

And then a guy got up on stage and did a speech in the style of the person who killed your child and then took off a shirt with the cult name that you think was in charge of kill and everyone cheered that I would I would not know what was going on there.

I'd need to know more.

I feel like the whole never get never letting people know Eddie wasn't a serial killer is one of the craziest problems of the show.

Also, who who believes an earthquake did all of this?

We gotta do at least like a nuclear power upon Like that's why you saw weird things.

The power plant structure.

Earthquake happens in a matter of like a minute.

Max, like, like, why was the military taking over your like neighborhood because of an earthquake.

I live in California.

That never happens.

Stupid.

All right, let's take a quick break and then we will leave you with our final straight thoughts, but the final season question mark of straight quick and we're back, okay, straight thoughts.

Leftover thoughts such as, like what was the deal with doctor K.

I was like, don't even care.

About Yeah, I don't care about Doctor K.

I don't care about it.

Didn't give enough.

I don't understand why they bought one of the most iconic action actors of all time, Linda Hamilton in had Nancy essentially just take on her role from Terminator Too and never have them like team up or fight or battle.

Like it was so obvious that the parallels are that they didn't know what to do with doctor K.

They obviously cost Linda and didn't know what to do with her character.

But it's a real shame, Like I thought, what if she was like the original, Like she's also a psychic and she was one of the earlies so many ways, Like there were so many things that felt like it could I never understood how motivation was.

Yeah, I think that they at My theory is they got like data back.

That's like people don't care about doctor k so they just never pursued it.

That's what else like to.

Me, the whole show feels like cut her from the show with respect.

I think it would have better for her and for us.

What A was also talking.

About spending money and not knowing what to do.

Why did you buy Prince's music?

And yes, this is all right, have a cool.

Damn it too cool?

Mont?

It was that it was a feature.

I couldn't let them get away with the one but using purple rain like that?

Which one?

Offensive?

Using purple which one?

There in her Goodbye kiss?

Yeah, it was horrible and like I wrote down, just because you can get the rights to a song doesn't mean you're using it right.

They did not.

I did look into this because I was like, how the funk did they get the pretty right?

And I know, but it was no But it was Kate.

It was Kate Bush.

Apparently Kate Bush was the one who encouraged the Prince estate and was like, hey, this show was great for me and look streaming money for me.

Like it's like, yeah, I got I got my castle re roofed exactly.

She was like, bro, get some I'm like Prince you have enough money the family.

I do think this show is okay.

For a show that like really revitalized Kate Bush's song and Master of Puppets like had these huge boosts from the show.

I think they were really trying to get another moment like that in the season and it raising really Worriver.

Also as well.

The difference between like this is not to insult Kate Bush an icon in England where I grew up, very famous pop star.

Right, a lot of kids had never heard of her, had never heard that song, bitch, everyone knows Prince.

That's the difference, Like you've actually play a Prince song and be like it's purple Rain.

And also when Doves Cry, like two of the most famous songs.

When Doves cryes very famously in Romeo and Juliet too, so like a lot of people know different versions of it.

Like I just don't think they should have done like they should have even if they just had like nineteen ninety nine when something had gone right and they'd all celebrate it.

I don't know.

I just feel like other other songs, a lot of it is correct.

That was a crazy song.

How dare You crazy?

Okay?

Straight straighty Final thoughts about Yeah.

I'm upset that they didn't do the meme where somebody said, well, we've seen stranger things.

I think at this point, just do it.

Just say it, like man Isaiah was saying that the whole time, and just like fucking somebody say it, say stranger things.

If you do a kid relaunch, let's keep the kid the focus of the show on the new group of kids.

I think eighty seven new characters in the final season was a choice.

Enough time.

I needed more Max.

And eleven times they were my favorite.

I love seeing the season three Hang, I thought it was super cute.

I needed more Justin always, just because I love Dustin.

I just felt like we didn't get enough of this core group of kids at the end, all of their various like connections, and it was really a problem.

So if we if we do this again, and I we're gonna do it again, let's take the focus on the kids.

I think that's where the magic is.

I think you're right.

I also think for me, like I want them to stick to the character stuff that works and building on it instead of always new, new, new expansion.

I think like they forget that what made the show so popular in the first place was four kids on bikes, very et very intimate, Like you can have a big story, but you need the heart of it.

And I agree with you, Joelle.

Other than Holly, I didn't need any of the other kids.

It could have just been Holly.

He didn't need twelve Holley like, you're fine, like whatever, Like I think stuff like that.

I also would say for me, I think if you're gonna go fan service, full fan service.

I don't see why when they went to Dimension X or the upside Down, we couldn't have seen, you know, Billy come back and try and help Max a little bit, or fucking you know people that they'd killed off in the upside Down.

I'm like, if you're gonna do full fan service, like where's Eddie Mounch, we gonna make the market.

Yeah, they're the montage, but I want to see the power.

Jason, I'm now learning that you love a montage.

This is great.

I'm gonna be everything that I said to you.

Now let me say, first of all, difference, I don't always love a montage.

Here, let me preview it.

Let me preview a take that I think is going to be divisive.

Uh well, PENELTI whether I think it's either the penultimate or the season finale of Heared Rivalry Montage Too Long.

We went through like the entire song along with the montage to jump ahead for years.

Yeah, but like it was identical pacing.

It was like each identical constituent piece of each year in the montage, give us you one, give us your one, and then speed through two and three.

It doesn't need to be the exactly any one anyway, But I thought, listen, the nostalgia is what works the best in strength the month, and so the montages work.

I think my straight thought and is whether or not Eleven is alive and safe in the place with the three waterfalls.

I believe she is.

I believe that they don't have any idea what the three waterfall location is.

That they just were like, give us a place, and they just did put that in there.

Maybe we get more of that in a in the spin off.

But my question is like, why did why did Eleven go up that way?

Now she has to go like ten miles around this.

Huge to get to the fucking place.

Why did she go that way?

Go towards the.

Village, go towards the buildings, go up the side where the buildings are.

Why did you it be like I want to go to the Like it'd be like you have to go to a place on the other side of the Grain Canyon, and you go from the other side of the Grand Canyon and go look across at it.

Now you have to go across, like find a way across.

I would also say, let's think about this, right if you think about like how we've seen eleven evolve over the years.

This girl only just learned how to speak in like full sentences, and she's like sixteen.

I imagine she's going to roll into that finish town and be like, where's my where's my where's the coulp?

Can he be my dad?

Like she doesn't know how to like live in normal we can't outside.

Well, so I'm like very interested.

Can I get Can I get a waterfall count?

Really quick?

Yeah?

That is?

Yeah, so I wonder Aaron.

One of the things that I thought leading up to the finale is, you know, Rosie talked about the original pitch of the show Montak where it was going to be an anthology, and after season one, people loved the characters so much they kept them and they just decided to do a show with all these characters, and leading into the finale episode, I was like, you know, I kind of would have loved if they had done an anthology like we have seen White Lotus do it on TV.

We can do an anthology series that people will love.

But kind of like Jason, when those montages hit and I saw all the little kids meeting eleven and I saw them in the basement and I saw them like, you know, she has to go change in the bathroom.

But once the door opened, I was like, you're right, it was good that you kept these characters.

I like these characters, so that's my life.

Like I still would love a Stranger Things anthology where they fight vampires or dragons or other classic D and D villains.

I would love that.

But this worked.

I think you.

Felt like, yeah, mmm wow.

You know Max and Lucas the actors that play them, Justine and we got a lot of good crid actors out of this.

He really helped the next generation of American actors, which you know is always a struggle for us.

The Brits come over here take our jobs.

The Australia, it's all the countries where there is universal healthcast so people can.

Like focus on the.

Yeah, why does Iceland have so much good music?

What it's It's a priority over there, It's not over here.

So thank you Duffer Brothers and Netflix for giving us some American actors to.

Look forward to.

Yes, I like that, Joel.

Okay, Well, stranger things, let's put the pin in it for now.

Clearly we're gonna will know.

But it's been wonderful to spend this time in the upside down with you.

On the next episode of Extra Vision, We're diving to fall Out two four.

This episode of Thanks for Listening, Bye Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason SEPs Young and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.

Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kolefman.

Our supervising producer is Abusafar.

Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.

A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.

Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi our discord moderator.