Worrying.

Today's episode contains spoilers for it.

Welcome to Darry Episode three, You warn't.

Hello.

My name is Jason Gettepsion and I'm Mersday Nike, and welcome back to x ray Vision of the podcast where we dive.

Do you be to your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture?

Coming to you from my heart.

We'll bring you three episodes a week las days.

In today's episode, we are going back to Darry, Maine and we are going to recap the episode before we introduce the scream, Queen's comment and Joel to talk about this law expanding episode.

Is it better?

Is it worse?

Is it keeping up the consistency of the show.

We will be talking about it, but first let's recap.

Welcome to Darry Episode three.

We open in the past sometime there's a carnival on the outskirts of Darry, a Barker carnival.

Barker steers a young boy named Francis towards a certain tent he says is filled with terrors and it's like normal carnival stuff in there Siamese twins, you know that kind of thing with a gross connecting flap.

He goes into a darker room of the tent and he gets like really scared by a man with one eye.

He flees the tent.

His dad is like, you're a sissy because you're scared, but I bought you a sling shot anyway.

It's a really cool slingshot with like a rubber one of those like thick rubber band.

Looks like you could really shoot some stuff.

Right, like a like a tie off for a heroin shot type thickness shot medical.

A young girl clown in the classic Pennywise look is watching from nearby, and one wonders, is this penny Wise or is this where penny Wise.

I think this is where penny Wise got the idea.

This isn't Pennywise exactly.

Yeah, And the dad and the son, Francis, they leave.

They're in their little drop top ford going home and the car breaks down because it overheats.

So Dad's like, go over there to that roadside stand and buy me some water for the car.

So they go over there and it's a Native run stand.

The clerk is a young girl about the same age as Francis, and but the boy doesn't have enough money.

The dad didn't give enough money.

He gave him like four cents and it's like a nickel.

Yeah, I'm like, you got money?

Yeah, what's going on?

So the kid has to barter his slingshot to get it, and but he does get it, and the car is running again, and the dad gets pissed when he knows slingshot's missic.

Soon enough, Francis and these native kids are great friends.

And it seems like him and the girl there's his name is Rose, there's like a little little something.

It's a little summer, summer of love for these zoo But so they running around in the woods.

One day, Francis runs into this certain cops of trees.

It's like it's a perfect opening into this darker part of the woods and Rose is like, no, no, no, no, no no no, which, by the way, you should have told him, by the way we're gonna play out here, don't go in there.

But now it's like a gate right there.

Yeah, don't go in that very inviting.

Don't go in.

He goes in.

It immediately turns spooky.

The one eyed guy is there stalking him from behind trees.

He turns into a monster that is chasing him, and the girl manages to like plink the guy in the face with the slingshot and then leads Francis to safety.

Then we go to the credits, which Joelle has a wonderful theory that the credits song is sung from the perspective of Pennywise.

Love that, and we.

Open on Juniper Hill, the state run sanitarium where Lily has been.

It's now I guess it's been like a couple of weeks, like two weeks or something, or a week and Lily, Lily's Mom's coming to pick her up, and the doctor tells Lily's mom like, we've been heavily, heavily, heavily drugging her, and she seems to be getting better.

Also, she seems to have struck up a very close relationship with a member of the staff who I will refer to by her government named Madeline Stowe, the actor, because we don't really have her name in this episode.

So it's back the beautiful, the gorgeous Madeline Stowe, big star in the eighties, late eighties and nineties.

And it's very clear I think that Madeline Stowe has been through some Pennywise battles herself exactly right, definitely, and because she's like yo, I believe you, Lily, I believe you, no question, I believe it.

And then she gives her like a reference to the Losers Club.

The book version of the Loser's Club gives Lily a little friendship charm bracelet, which is a big thing in the book.

We go to jail.

The chief of police goes to jail visits Hank Hatchet.

Hank in there.

It's like he want a cigarette, and then of course it's like not a friendly visit.

The chief immediately is like, hey, you know what they do to child murders in prison, Well, you better confess because maybe we'll like what is It's like it's all stick and no carrot, Like, what is what's the upside to confessing?

They're just saying you're gonna get killed if you don't confess.

It's very you're getting killed anyway.

Yeah, I mean it's killed anyway, Like there's nothing.

Denny kind of reveals that they allegedly found a sick gret packet.

Like Hank, you know, smokes at the cinema at the crime scene.

Is like, yeah, he's the projectionist.

Everybody's smiles there all the time.

They street, they just smoke all the time back then.

Come on, Ronnie is back at school getting bullied by Patty and the mean girls.

Will is feeling bad for her, and we'll find out that Will actually has a has a big old crush on her.

Lily meanwhile, I was trying to make amends with Ronnie, but of course Ronnie just want to hear it, and Lily's like, listen, I'll do anything to clear your dad's name.

I came up with an idea, what about this.

We take a picture of the shit when it's happening, like the demon shit, the octopus in the grocery store, or the baby with the little wings like whatever from it takes.

We take a picture.

But the problem is where do we get the pictures developed?

And Ronnie is like, oh, I just talked to this kid who like knows a lot about chemistry, So I got an idea.

Also, I yes, I do just want to quickly say, nice to see kids having a good plan in a horror movie, because.

This is the kind of thing where when you're watching it, you gotta do that.

You're like, you gotta try it, like even if you're even if an adult is going to be like you fake these or they don't you gotta do it?

Like this is the kind of stuff that.

You yell at the screen when you're watching a horror movie, like take a picture, take off the guy's mask when you knock him over.

So I'm proud of them for this plan, even this is more in danger.

Right when this happened, I'm like, oh, we're going this is the most in the footsteps of it, both the book, the original miniseries, and the movies.

This is this whole episode.

It's starting with this where the kids begin to fight back.

We go to the base.

The colonel briefs the General on the car find and they're like, hey, it was a good, good find, but we didn't.

They're looking for something and whatever it is, it's not in the car.

The car just has skeletons and bullet holes and it's part of gang war that happened back in the day.

And the General is like, yeah, that's not it.

Whatever they're looking for, it came from three hundred years earlier.

So the general.

You're getting the picture that the general knows a lot about the thing they're looking for, and the question is how so the general is on a clock for some reason.

He's like we're running at a time.

So this leads me to believe that the General knows about the twenty cycle, the penny Wise cycle, but also that the cycle and the Cuban missile crisis are kind of like there's a there's a dual clock here, because I guess the here's my theory.

The General is worried that Pennywise will disappear at the end of the cycle and they will miss their window to stop the Cubans and the Soviets from putting the missiles in or from them deploying the penny Wise weapon against the Soviet.

So then the General is like goes into his top drawer.

He pulls out of Philly's blunt cigar box.

Listen, yeah, I mean listen for for a person like me.

When I see that Phillies cigar box, I'm thinking one thing, who's rolling up the stuff?

Who's got it?

I was like, oh, time to relax, God.

Break it up.

Honestly, they could all deal with with a little stuffy, could use this, use last no stuff.

So there's something important in there, but he doesn't open it at that time.

Then we go to uh the Airman tent where we see hallerin and the buddy's talking, talking tall tales.

The airmen still are not sure what to make of of Dick Hallarin's tall tales, but they do know he has pulling because it's raining and they're in this really shitty almost like a cargo.

It's a really bad last tent.

It's bad.

They're like, well, use your juice to like fix the roof in this tent.

As we're gonna rained on, let's take a quick break and let's continue with the recap wake up box and we're back.

Okay, So we're still on base, Major handling Captain Russo they're walking over to their helicopter to do some sort of overflight of the town training mission whatever it is, whatever it was gonna be it It changes when the colonel comes over bringing Hallarin and is like, you two are going to take this guy up in the air wherever.

He says, fly to, you fly to, and Hallarin is clutching that Phillies blunt box and you're wondering, like, are they just gonna hot box.

It's a big helicopter with just the three of them, and I'm like, they could really.

Get away with it, dude.

This is pre camera age.

They could be smoking out in there.

So they go up and we see that the slingshot is in the box and Hallarn is telling them every which way to go.

Turn east, he says, and then we flash back again.

Frances and the girl have made it out of the woods and she tells him that that thing is it stays in there, it doesn't come out, but as long as you don't go in there, you're fine.

And she is like, listen, I'll tell you everything I know about it, but it's a secret, and just don't tell anybody else.

And then we flash forward.

We realize that the girl Rose is now Rose, the owner of the antique store in town, and roses in the middle of a local a meeting of the local native community.

They're all upset that the military is digging around in their sacred areas and they're like and they're coming at you know, they're pitching ideas.

They're like, okay, well we can we already did a cease and desist, but let's see at least if they can.

You know, there's different ideas being thrown around, like can we get at least some money, like so we can fix up the community, Like if they're going to be doing this, they should at least be paying like some sort of rent or at lease or something.

The young man from the observation party from earlier, who is spying on the military comes over to Rose Anti Rose, they call her, and it is like, listen, we got to do something.

What that is we don't know, but roses like no, no, no, no, yes, yes.

So you know she actually does cool for a season to desist after this, and that's how the general remembers that.

No, they but I think they already.

I think they already put the paper.

I think they already did.

They already put it in.

But she is like in of the season right, she's very much in support of this season desist, but she's not the The young man is like, we got to do something else, like he wants to.

There's some other thing that he has in mind that clearly they've talked about that we don't know what it is.

And Rose is like, no, we're not going to do that.

Whatever that is, we're not going to do that yet.

Because she doesn't necessarily want to stop them, she wants to know what they're looking for, so she needs to find that information first before she decides, like what path they're gonna choose.

Meanwhile, up in the air, Hallarin feeling the penny vibes Anywise vibes, which I call Penny vibes, and he's like having a fit.

You know, Handling is looking back there, Russell's looking back there.

They're like Jesus, great, what the fuck's going on?

And you know they calling in.

They're like, I don't know.

Like Halarin's like flipping out, and then.

He's having a wine shots like they should have given him a bit I feel like they should have given these two guys.

A bit more some Yeah, I completely agree, give him something like.

Could have helped you turn this into like a disaster situation.

Yeah.

But they're like, but whoever is on the radios is like no, no, no, like whatever happens on the road.

Hallarin gets up.

He's really feeling the penny vibes and boom, he's down in that sewer.

Oh, he's down there, and he sees like an old wagon like from the carnival advertising Pennywise the Clown, and it pops open it into his stage.

Here's a voice that's like he asks like who are you?

And he has like a vision of war and it looks like World War One and the trenches and explosions, and then and then he sees the kids who have been captured and put in the sewer, all floating up into the air with all their stuff and all their like toys and their bikes and all that kind of shit.

And then he sees his Grandma's one of these people floating around in there, and she tells him get out of here now, Dicky.

And meanwhile, in real life in the helicopter, Dick is like pulling the release on the back hatch of the helicopter and is trying to escape.

He thinks in his mind escape the sewer, but in real life trying to jump out of the helicopter and annyways trying to kill him, absolutely trying to kill him.

So Handlan like manages to grab him and is like keeps him in the helicopter.

Later, Handlan is like telling the general all the shit, like, oh my god, like he tried to jump out and it was fucking insane.

I had to grab his guy, what like what's going on over there?

And Dick is in the General's office shaken, telling him like, hey, here's all the ship I saw.

And he's like, I'm worried about this thing because this that thing shouldn't have known that we were there, like I wasn't.

I wasn't actually in the area, like I was high above it.

So I don't know.

This is very concerning, like are we going to unleash whatever this thing is?

And the general doesn't give a shit.

We go to the diner, local diner, Will and Rich Will Handlan and his little pencil buddy Rich are hanging out talking about them titties.

They love titties.

Kids in this town love tits.

Rich just loves any crush like he's crush on the diner lady he's got.

I think he's kind of got a crush on Well, That's what I'm saying.

I like, I am getting other vibes.

Equal opportunities.

I feel like he talks about the groups so much, so maybe people I don't realize he doesn't love it.

That's kind of where I'm feeling because but maybe that's a subtext that I'm bringing to it.

Anyway, Rich loves titties so much.

You're talking about him, but he's also like it.

He's like, I love titties, but also like Marge's face is another thing that I love, and there's a knock on the window outside.

Ronnie and Lily are there and they're like, Will, what do you know about film developing?

He's like, I know, film developing.

What do you mean?

He's like, well, listen, we need some film developed and we'll tell you why eventually.

Okay.

Meanwhile, Rich then accuses Will of liking Ronnie, which kind of comes out of nowhere, but you get it, and we buy.

Yeah antique store, the general comes in and has like got anything for a nicol to rose, and holy shit, you realize he is Franks the young boy.

Did you see this coming?

Because I did?

Generated did oh at fust maybe Francis was gonna become Pennywise.

I didn't know he had that little hat on.

I wasn't sure what was going on.

You know, Yeah, me neither.

So yeah, no, I didn't see that coming.

Also, I do want to say, ari willam modge having a crush on like the nudy girl with glosses and a bad hack, very gay, just saying, just saying.

I just you know everything about rich just I wonder anyway, so even the way she's like riding the bike and running for petty like anyway, Yeah, that's we're fast worded.

So the General comes in and is like, oh, it's so good to see you.

And just so you know, like I didn't actually remember you until kind of today, and a bunch of things have been going, like I'm working on stuff, and it's like the memories came back and and and and I realized like we were kind of boyfriend girlfriend for a summer, Like we had a thing and I didn't remember it until I got your cammunity season desist letter that had your name on it that said stop digging around.

And just so you know, we're digging around for the water supply.

Yeah, famous thing the community.

We want to Yeah, it's like the base needs were water and uh, we're looking for a way to you know, get the reroot some of the local streams into the into the basest.

Trustworthy American government.

And she's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then sensing her suspicion, and I gotta say, this is a good one from Francis.

I.

This is a really good one because it also it also gives her what she is looking for, So I think we can see this happening.

This is a good one.

He goes, you know, you don't have to.

Maybe you could tell us, you know, areas to stay away from, respectful you see of your of your community and their sacred areas, and you could just you know, be like, yeah that you could go over there and dig grin over there, but like this one don't and you could trust me.

We go to a flashback Francis his dad is getting redeployed.

So Francis is telling Rose as they hang out very boyfriend girlfriend like near a stream, that he's gonna have to move soon.

And Rose is like, well, in that case, here, I'm gonna give you this back.

Here's your slingshot black and he and Francis m is clearly very much crushing on Roses, like, make me a promise that you'll never forget about me, never forget about the summer that we had in all the warm times and the demon that you saved me from and all of that stuff.

And Rose is like, well, listen, you do.

Something you need to know about this town is when you leave here, you kind of forget almost immediately, like things will just become very foggy and you're gonna forget about me.

And I'm sorry to hear that, but that's what's gonna happen.

We go to the present, Lily, Ronnie take Will and Rich to the boys hang out the disappeared boys hang out, which Rich is like, holy shit, like what and they tell them about the mission.

We're seeing demons, ghosts and we need to take a picture of them and then get the picture develops so we can prove to everybody that Lily's not crazy when she tells the truth, and that my dad is innocent of the crimes of killing numerous kids.

Rich is immediately like, oh, that's an evil spirit.

What the other guy?

Yeah, yeah, my t O was big in the Santa Ria scene in Cuba, and like knows all about like the candles, Like you get the ceremonial candles, you set it up at a graveyard, you chant the thing, and then the demon shows up and they're like, oh shit, well Rich, you're in charge of that now.

Why this is like a tradition throughout horror movies real life.

Why are people always like, oh, it's just summon a demon.

Don't do it, don't play with don't do it, don't go to the graveyard.

Bad idea.

I do, I will say in this episode's favor I do think that Ronnie's dad being in prison and Lily being you know, deemed as crazy are really really great and goffins for why they would do this, But I was still like yelling at the TV.

I think they actually need that stuff, right, because they do.

As we're going to talk about later when I talk about my slight notes on slight concerns about things that might emerge beating penny Wise kind of can't they need other goals such as, you know, Lily being cleared and Hank Hatchet Hank being cleared because I think there's a little bit of danger to beating Pennywise.

Yeah, because also as well, we can never truly beat him because he knows, we know he's coming back, yes, and so that is so I think you're right, it's good to give them other goal for sure.

Dicky Hallarin comes over to the Handling House and gets to know everybody, and Dick is you can tell Charlotte's not a huge fan of Derry.

He can tell this because he's reading everybody's minds.

He doesn't.

And we learned that Charlotte was a school teacher.

She's involved in the civil rights movement or it certainly wants to be more involved here in town.

But if the major is worried about rocking the boat and this kind of thing, Dick backs the major up and is like, yeah, he's right to be worried about that, Like it's a little sensitive around here.

And Charlotte is like, you fucking cowards.

Yeah, I'm gonna make this.

Yeah.

Meanwhile, Dick is you know, they're they're hanging out with Will in a private moments like where's your son?

Well, weird question, not subtle, and I'm a big fan of the Major's response.

Why He's just kind of like, yeah.

So in this, in this moment, he's like with friends, okay.

And then we go to see where they're at.

They're in the cemetery.

They got the candles, they got them all set up in the circle.

Rich meanwhile is burning film.

There's only like twenty four or thirty six shots pictures.

He's just like.

He's just like Britge very funny joke.

Yeah.

So Ronnie's like stop doing that, like okay and get to work, like we got look, we got the candles.

Do the thing.

So they he does the thing.

Meanwhile, Dick and the Major they're on the porch now drinking beers, and the major is like, how do you know I have a son.

I didn't mention him.

There's no pictures of him, I guess in the house, And and Dick is kind of like, you know, like I think on the base maybe people were talking about him or something.

And the Major then goes to, okay, so what happened up in the air.

It felt like some I don't know, like some sort of psychic shit or something.

And then the says, by the way, I think you can read minds, and I think I have.

And here's how I know, because I think you were part of the attack on me that night.

I think you were not the guy attacking me, but I think you were standing off the side because I.

Felt he could feel the same feeling which I thought that i'm having now.

Yes, that someone is in my mind or you know, rummaging around in there, and I felt it from that guy that night I was attacking.

I'm feeling it from you now, So stay out of my head, buddy.

And Dick is like, listen, I will, I'm not gonna fuck with you.

And here's why.

Because when you had a gun to your head and people were beating the shit out of you, and they were saying, like one hundred percent, we're going to kill you.

I sensed no fear from you, only like analytical.

Didn't think of his family, didn't think of his why that was.

No fear And he was like, the kind of people they sent me to fuck with, they have fea I thought that was a gratified with you.

So very clearly this is going to play a role in whatever happens with Pennywise later because he's this is the guy who's immune to pennyone.

I like that they built this relationship between the two of them as well, because there's this great moment during this conversation early on where Hamlin's kind of like, well, you won't believe me if I tell you I can do and then May just like nah, He's like every where I lived because they were in I think New Orleans before, He's like, everyone knew someone who could do that.

So I like that even though this guy is the sensible, logical guy, he's also going to be a believer, which means that when Will and the kids inevitably tell him, he will likely be the adult ally, which is nice and rare to have a sensible adult ally in horror movie.

We go to the graveyard where nothing is happening, and it turns out Rich was probably lying, like a lot, a lot of stuff, and so sure Jed definitely like inflating these stories, these tall tales about his te o and all that stuff.

So everybody gets mad at them, and recriminations flying back and forth, and you know, it kind of emerges that maybe the boys didn't believe any of this.

They're just hanging out because mainly because Will has a crush on Ronnie, and so that gets thrown around.

Ronnie storms off, Lily takes the camera and follows, and I was wondering, now if some of the early shots, if there's going to be film, if there's gonna be something on there.

Rich and Will follow the girls on their bikes, because the girls, you know, it took their bikes.

They're just like fuck this, We're leaving.

They're peddling towards the gate, but the gate is never getting closer, it's getting farther away.

And now the shit is popping off right.

The ground is opening up.

The ghosts of the slain kid, the disappeared kids are coming out of the ground and saying something, and the girls are like snapping pictures like as these ghosts are flying through the ears, it gets very like Chase for the Infinity Gauntlet at the end of End Game, where the camera keeps getting hung up on a brunch and then another person has everyone has to grab the camera.

The camera.

Yeah, so all these things are happening.

Meanwhile, Will gets trapped in a crypt and a scary part of the graveyard and it's kind of the Chase goes by this crypt.

As Will is in there, the camera gets dropped on the ground riches like pick up the camera.

Will then picks up the camera and is like he sensed somebody behind him in the crypt, and he's like, I'm gonna go back and try and really get this a good shot, which you're screaming, no, don't do this, but he goes in there, he snaps a picture and doesn't emerge for a second, but then he does manages to get to his friends who are standing outside the gates.

They all embrace huge moment.

They go back to develop the film at the school and when the shots come out, they get the shot, you know, they see the ghosts of the kids and it's this is great.

And then the last one that Will took in the crypt.

Is this very blurred out clown, very scary clown.

It is Pennywise.

Yeah, and great moment.

There he is and they go, what's that?

Boom boom.

Let's take a quick break and when we come back, we will be joined by the Scream Queens.

Carmen, Joel talk about.

This episode.

And we're back.

Welcome to the Scream Queens.

Thank you for joining us at Ladies.

How are you I.

We'd love to get your takes on this episode, Joel, let's start with you your thought.

I really like this one, guys, Like I text the screen Queen's group chat that I was like, I'm glad the show keeps getting better.

Well, we'll get into the scares and sort of where they rank.

I do think these scares not as scary as one in two.

However, I think the application of the scares and their impact on characters remains strong enough that it keeps my interest.

And I also I love the goofy little blue floating kids like it really it worked for me.

I was like this, if I wat seance in the cemetery, I would be really moved by this.

I also Corey Jefferson is a co producer on this if you're unfamiliar with the name.

He worked on Watchman.

He wrote the sixth episode, which was the flashback with the Police.

A depo who is in this show playing the Major played the police officer in there.

He based that the character here in it on his father.

And I was listening to the it Welcome to Dairy Official podcast hosted by friend of the pod Mark Barnarden and Prince Weeks, and on it, Andy Muschietti was talking about how like when they brought Cordon, he was really responsible for really nailing the tone of everything that's going on in the Major's house and developing those characters.

And I just think like in sci fi specifically, when you're dealing with like racist issues, it's rare that we get two black characters talking to each other not about race issues and not sort of lamenting, and they're both really fleshed out and like feel like real human characters.

And I was like, the scene on the porch really for me was a sweet spot.

I had a lot of fun with this episode.

I was gonna say, Joe, could you talk a little bit more to that, because I do feel like we're coming out of what my my very talented friend and cartoonist Bianca Eunice was calling for a while the Jordan Peel industrial complex, not a critique on Jordan, but a critique on studios trying to replicate that through basically just doing black trauma right them these stories that were very much about like, yeah, being black is horrible, but it's also like we have to show that through violence, violence violence against black people constantly, that there is a you know, a limit there of how effective that can be when it comes to making like a radical statement.

This feels like an evolution of that to telling like a historically accurate story about America within like a genre space.

Could you talk a little bit about how this kind of grows on those shows that we've had over the last few years.

Yeah, it's been a really interesting time.

We're seeing a lot of reports on like a downswing and hiring people of color and women behind the camera.

We're seeing a lot of studios step away from these kinds of projects which were really pushed after the George Floyd incident as well as the success of get Out.

A lot of the wrong lessons were learned from get Out.

Get Out is not an extremely violent film.

It's an extremely psychological film that really seeks to explore like the eternal headspace of black people as they deal with racism.

And so I think for me anyway, like this is a thing, especially as we look at like sci fi and horror.

You know, often those are used as lenses to explore and critique the other.

So, whether that's black culture, queer culture, you name it, and that's a good thing.

Someone I wish I could remember who wrote someone wrote a really good article recently about it, talking about just this subject, and they were saying something really interesting to me, which is like, if you want to place a movie in a time or racism exists, you cannot have people of color and not have it be impacting them.

Like it's impossible.

Yeah, But at the same time, like how much of that do we want?

But I also don't want to be a race from history.

I also really respect my ancestors and what they went through.

I also know they have lives outside of that, and so I think it's a really hard needle to thread, to be like, we want to address the issues as they were occurring in time, but we want to make sure we have full human beings outside of these like defined limits.

So I think what's really interesting to me is, like the Mushi Eddies are coming.

You know, they were born and raised in Columbia under fascism.

They've talked a lot about its impact on this story.

Specifically they've put you know, aditionous folks and black people that I think they've really put together a well rounded room so that we could get characters like this, so that you could do all of it, so that you could both critique the culture at the time and have like these really deeply interesting characters.

I want to hear Carmen's thoughts, but we should definitely circle back to the ideas.

I was gonna say, yeah, I felt like this episode.

Of course, it's definitely not a scariest episode one or two, but I did enjoy the lore expansion that we're doing here.

I really love to get to know the character Declarin a little bit more.

He is one of my favorite characters from The Shining getting to know how his like powers work a little bit more too.

I just have to say though, I do love how the series continually keeps you on edge.

You know, like when you enter a new scene, if you can trust what you're seeing, you know, you're like because they've established that in episode one or two.

Even though I wasn't as scared in episode three, I was still just as on edge because I wasn't necessarily trusting everything that I was seeing right away.

And I think they do a great job of that in the first two episodes, kind of setting you up for it.

I you know, I I don't know how I felt so much about I'm gonna have to watch it again.

I don't know how I felt about the blue ghosts flying around that was that was a bit.

Very for me.

It was a it was a very like Disneyland.

It's very haunted.

Let me ask you, guys, then, is that because that's how like a kid would perceive a ghost And you know, I buy it.

I wonder like that all different obviously, we get that really scary.

We're also seeing like the errors of horror and how they impact like so you know, like when we're looking at like in our flashback scene, you know, it's very like hate grotesque y freak shows exactly.

Yeah, And so like these like nineteen fifties I kind of just hang, like, have guys seen Halloween costumes from like the fifties and sixties?

Terrifying?

Yeah, very very coded to like house on horned hill style fifties movie ghosts.

That's really great pull, Joel.

I like that, that's true, Joelle.

Explain also a little bit more about your theory regarding the theme song, because I do think we get it.

Girl wearing the red ribbons, so talk, talk talk.

I have so many questions about that girl clown.

I hope she comes up again.

They spent way too much time lingering on her.

Please.

I was immediately interested in this theme song.

It's so weird and goofy, so I had to look into it.

So the theme song is called a Smile and a Ribbon.

It's by Patients and Prudence, their sisters.

If you are on TikTok, you probably know their song.

I know you be too, so body.

It's creepy.

Who asked them to sing about being the other woman.

It's bizarre.

They're children.

But what it resonated was the final verse of the song, which goes sorry make yourself, which goes something like this, So I'll have that extra something because I'll know what to wear.

So I'll be special and i'll be rare.

I'll be something beyond compare.

I'll be noticed because I'll wear a smile and a ribbon in my hair.

I think that is the entity known as it.

I think that is the alien, the high pitched voice, the big tooth thing, big toothy grin, a lot of stuff about I'll be noticed and I'll be rare, and I'm going to be right in your face about it.

And it's sickly sweet and charming, but there's something sinister and weird underneath it.

Again, I don't know what was going on with Patients and Prudence or the team behind them, but creepy songs, guys, And I was like, go ahead, Bard.

The imagery we see are all basically different, historical like chaotic things that Penny is cars throughout the.

Town, which okay, I also so something I did think is interesting that I would love to hear you guys thoughts on.

So we were kind of wondering, you know, off, Mike, where did this new iteration of pennywise, this kind of tall, creepy, hybrid thin man version.

So that which which was really scary that we saw at the beginning.

Now there is a Native American like story about the tall man, right, and the description of the toll man is very similar.

It's this kind of notion of this tall, thin, long armed man.

So I do think this is them playing on that.

What I think is most interesting is that the tall man has been associated throughout history with terrible events like the Wounded Knee massacre, and then also just seen as like the way that America has kind of treated indigenous people has come to that the notion.

So I'm interested because that seems to be what that also setting up with Pennywise.

I want to because we have critiqued Stephen King's to be Native Americans, I also want to say that we're letting this show off the hook in that regard.

Yeah, talk man, first of all, is a plane is a plane's native.

So I have no particular critique.

I think like Stephen King's, I get the criticism, but I also feel like even this show, which is doing it in a more positive way, is still playing in the positive tropes of Native Americans.

They're wiser, they have the wisdom of the woods and the nature, and they know more about nature than we do.

Which listen, sure, but if that's all you know about them, which is the case for the show, then are we still not doing it?

That's all I'm saying.

Can I say, really interesting to me about the indigenous representation.

Here was the council meeting later, which I really snagged on and again really kind of hyper focusing on the fact that like fascism has impacted their viewpoints as of the story, and this idea of like, Okay, here's like a collective group of people calling together to have a conversation.

One person clearly knows more than everybody else in the room has a big impact on Like when she's when Rose stands up to leave, everyone turns to look at her, but she's not guiding them, and like it's not like an altruistic like, oh, like what's best for the tribe or really she's like I'm curious, I want to know what's going on, and maybe her her ideas are going to be the best thing for the But this point in time, I think that to me feels like a deviation of like the stereotypical way we would depict like an occasion.

I think in the sense that they are showing her as like a fool character.

Yes, a complex character who's not just like in habited by various tropes.

But all I'm saying is like we are still this show is still kind of doing it.

It's that's that's my critique is in the same way that we I think, as non native consumers of storytelling in various forms, I think we underrate our own like how much we are programmed by these tropes over time, and that what we're responding to is, oh, this is the pot this is oh cool, Like they're not, uh, you know, savage killers.

But what we are still responding to is this kind of mythical connection to like, I guess what I'm saying is what you know, what are these characters like when they are just like having dinner, not communing with right, not like in the same way that we saw dinner at the hand, you know, or kids just talking not like shot through with whatever this show's version of their belief system.

You know what I mean.

Yeah.

Now, I will say one, we have some really incredible Indigenous and Native listeners, So if anyone feels like really strong about this, like come on and tell us.

Your feelings, because it will be great to have a voice.

But I will also I just want to say quickly, ro the woman who plays Rose Kimberly Noris Guerrero.

She did say at New York Comic Con she was basically like, it's a Stephen King universe.

It's a family, but it's a family that we've been left out of.

And she was like, the natives have been there, we've been able, but we've never been able to join you at the table.

And now we have stories, and boy, what a story.

So I'm interested to see if there is an expansion on this because she also feels like she's very happy with this role and kind of the way it's broadened out.

So I'm excited to see what.

Want to be clear that I feel very positively about the show, and you make a great point.

You want to say, much like as when I say like in the same way that when I see like a martial arts show or martial arts movie and it's like, of course the Asians are going to be there, Like like, of course we're going to be there.

Could you see an agent?

Just like playing a PlayStation with.

That friend, I at least want to see like but when I see it, I at least want to see us like being cool and not depicted.

Chittaly, Yeah, the same way, like, Okay, this is a magical story about the fucking woods, about a ghost in the woods, like and the Native Americans are there, Okay, you like, but at least it's a good version of that.

Like, I just want to acknowledge that it is a ghost story about the about the woods.

Again.

I like that you pulled that into because something I'm interested in with this particular conversation is like the Toll Mound mythology is like so key to what they're doing, especially now they've brought him into the text, and this idea of it now being kind of the Western or you know, colonizer version of that.

I'm I want.

I don't want them.

To end up connecting these two things together and take.

Like I want to know where that is going, because as if you, if anyone watched Reservation Dogs, there's some really interesting stuff in there about the Tall Man and his relations to like suicide rates.

So I think there's ways to do this that are like really thoughtful.

I don't want this to not be that.

But I think this episode with Rose and kind of expanding on that and seeing life on the res like you said, Joel, let's hope that that keeps growing.

And like you said, Jason, we don't just only see them in the context of it, you know, we get to see them exist outside of it?

Can we talk about how incompetent the American government seems to be hot that I mean, listen that they're not even anywhere near where pennywise is.

It seems no, k they're getting hits.

Like to be fair to them, they're spending a tremendous amount of money.

Underation of all those ships on the sewers.

It's got to be causing some water management issues.

No, well, that's a good point.

It left me wondering, like when were the sewers built?

Like that're so cute?

I'm huge sorry are we in England?

These three hundred year old sewers?

Like come on, guys, they can't be.

Older than like the New York subway system, right.

Like it like it's got to be like eighteen late eighteen hundreds is what it can't be.

And nobody has checked them out since it was built.

Apparently like nobody has gone.

So the thing they're looking for was buried in like the fifteen eighties.

So that Joel wants your biggest bet for what they're looking for.

I'm so lost.

Is it the spaceship that when Penny when it came.

Yes, yes, the way he crashed a million years ago though, so that would be any longer.

Than crashed Yaw three and sixty five.

Crash hillions of years ago.

But they only buried the spaceship three hundred years ago, right, I don't know.

I don't know.

What do you guys think?

What do you think we're looking for?

I think we're going to be looking for whatever.

I think this is going to be.

Like penny Wise was trapped in something m he escaped it, Okay, I think I think it's going to be something like I think it's gonna be that.

Like listen, there's no there's no version of this story from what we've seen so far right where the native community doesn't know a lot more about.

That, so does the trapped him before.

Maybe that's why I think they trapped it.

I think they managed to trap it because why couldn't leave the woods?

Why couldn't he leave the woods?

Right?

So I think they managed to trap him in an area and whatever that object or thing is, that's what the government is looking for, and that's the secret.

I think that Rose told the general about it, and I.

Think that might be true also because why could he not follow them out of the graveyard?

Exactly.

And the graveyards the forest, right, it's the graveyard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because whenever I'm thinking back to the films and like when we see Pennywise stop and action, it's usually because there's a group of people.

Now like more people have shown up and you're safe.

But yeah, I'm very interested in this.

I really like that read on it.

I have a I have a concern slight concern, Okay, okay.

I think it's really important that two of the big goals that our characters have are when clear Hank's name and make sure that the town knows that Lily well, make sure, at least from a legal perspective, Lily cannot be put back into a mental institution, right, yes, clear her name.

I think that's very important because I here's my worry.

This was the most IT like episode we got.

The kids.

The kids are beginning to fight back.

The kids.

They're on buy in, they're on bikes, they're doing the thing, running around confronting uh this force penny Wise directly right and kind of getting away with it.

I worry if we continue this way and the kids, with Major Hallern's help or whoever beat penny Wise, that it will like I think Pennywise is less scary.

If he gets beat by kids multiple times.

You've got.

You've got it.

You've got to come up with different like he can't be like he can't get to the eighties and be like, oh, the kids are plotting against me again.

I've learned nothing from the time they beat me in the sixties, And that is my one little concern.

Is anybody else concerned about that?

No, I don't think anyone gets out all.

I think the only people who get alive are the ones we know get out alive, like the people that are set up in stories later.

I think everybody else is marked for death.

Given the amount of children we've seen on Missing Posters and Darry both in the movies and here, and given the fact that we both its early.

Yeah, first of all, yes, can I tell you that it's so eerie watching the kids be in the hangout and like like them completely consuming and taking over the spaces if those other kids had never ever been here?

And I.

Because also have you noticed how they don't really talk about them anymore?

Like before that was the driving factor, but now it's like they're kind of forgetting that they ever existed, which does also feel.

Like, how we're gonna I'm not gonna lie.

I think any Machete, Andy and Barbara, they have done stuff before that I haven't, you know, enjoyed choices.

I felt quite brute all and stuff.

But I could imagine.

Them ending this show with Lily in the institute and no one believing her and everyone else like forgotten about apart from you know, Will and Handlon and the people who.

It seems evidently I don't trust the nurse at the top.

I know she was being friendly, but I'm like, I think this is good.

She's got even less control than hers.

She's just a custodian, like she's a oh yeah, she's like a janet.

Yeah, oh yeah, I uh okay.

So Stephen King loves the janitor, love loves the janitor, and they're usually altruistic, so maybe I'm on this cross base here.

I just never trust an adult and a Stephen King film either, and so Mike consent, Yeah, exactly.

So I'm worried about the nurse.

I do think that we're going to end up with a lot of dead kids and we'll see like how many wise like becomes even stronger at the end, especially because we're going backwards, like, well, you really want to see this in like bust out at the end of this and then figure out like what was he tinkering with twenty seven years before that?

So I'm okay, the painting and timing is off, but I think it works in the show's favor.

Is there a version of this show where it ends with the Cuba missing missile crisis and then we just skip backwards.

The what if?

Wait?

What if they do have an what if the Cuban missile crisis is a global Pennywise hallucination.

I'm never it never historical happened.

It's just like a band of syndrome.

Ya wait, guys, well we're talking about timing.

How long was Lucille in Juniper Hill.

It feels like two weeks of a week to two weeks.

She doesn't look too deeply fucked up, and at the beginning I was really watching those credits when I rewatched it this morning, and they have like a boy in an institute getting like labotomized by a bunch of women.

So I think we can assume that if you're there for a while, you're probably not coming out.

Oh, we didn't even talk about the Madeline Stow character.

Let's talk about the Madeline so character who seems like a pre loser or like the proto loser like character, because I do think that this bracelet is whether it's the same bracelet or it's clearly the inspiration for the losers later, whether they know it or not.

Is she somebody who twenty six years ago.

Had to fight?

I think yes, she is a survivor of a previous IT encounter.

My one believes she has to work as a custodian in the mental asylum, like they don't really respect at.

She did keep the brain with the turtle on it, so that sort of kind of in the loop.

Okay, So I believe so she must have vital like information about how you can survive this.

And my question is, I guess has she been Have we missed a reference to her previously?

Just a conversation and we like, there's no way where we don't get a flashback to who she is she went through.

Right, like we have to My guess, as I guess lost time where I really's dad?

Yeah, I think there's gonna be there's gonna be something to do with Lily Dad, because she seems she still remembers that even though a lot of the stuff they kind of seem to forget in the town.

I would also say as well, like I just think that with Madeline and with after the flashback that began this episode, which I thought was perfectly timed, and I was like, I think it's gonna draw in it people.

I think we could get a flashback per episode.

Now, like they established them as these kind of like a cold open basically, and we're starting to see the way that for example, the car that they found that was obviously the car that we saw the kid get kidnapped into, that was a car that was left over from when a bunch of bank robbers tried to rob a bank in Derry and everyone just killed them.

So I think that it can control.

The people of Derry and make them behave badly too.

Yeah, yeah, maybe it made wonder like the the kid fight that Charlotte sees and we see them on episode two, is that like is that an echo through time?

Did she really see that?

Did that really happen then everybody looking at her really weird right?

Or or did she see something that happened a while ago.

That's part of like I do wonder how much of what we are seeing is unreliable narrator anywise, calluci.

And I love that, That's what I'm saying.

I love that they established that.

You know, it makes it so fun.

This show's fun.

It's fun.

It is so fun to talk about any other hanging, predictions, concerns, final thoughts.

Yeah, I'm really interested in Taylor Page character ms Anlin.

She's married to the major.

The more I think, like, first of all, I think there's levels of brilliance to this show.

Not calling it perfect, not say it's great show of all time, but like levels of.

Brilliance as happening here.

Yeah.

Yeah, we we commented on Leroy in episode one and I said, oh, if he's kind of like naive because he's got this idea of like, hey, if you follow all the rules, like America can fix itself.

But now I know Leroy doesn't have a fear response.

And then he's brought his wife and child to a clearly racist neighborhood where he cannot experience the fear of racism, and it's constantly denying it.

And there is.

Something like just as a loud and proud member of the black community, this is an active thing that happens frequently is something that's actually happened in my family where we've integrated spaces, like way early, there's no community and they're like, this is good.

This is like upward movement and mobility, and you should be grateful to be here.

But that lack of community and support, the ostracization, the way you already see poor Will in school being ganged up.

Immediately, they're like, do you understand the concept of time?

Like he's an idiot when he's a truly brilliant child, Like I am so fascinated to see where this story goes, and I think what Taylor's doing with this ca character.

Again, listen to the podcast Guys official podcast Really Good gives you a lot of insight.

They were talking about how like her character though written on the page, so much was discovered when Taylor showed up on set, like the fact that the Annie said she really came alive during the dinner scene where she pops up and she measures her kid after talking about being worried about what's going on in the South, She's like, you know, boys should do this, This boy should be measured by She's scattered and she's all over the place, but she's got this like great big energy and all this joy and love, and I'm like, this is a really unique character.

I love her.

I can't watch her die.

Please don't kill her off.

No, no, no, no no.

But I do want them to explore this thread of like, you know what, what is fear for black people in America?

What are you without it?

Like that is a fascinating threat, and I'm excited to see them pull at it more.

Yeah.

Good point.

Well, we'll be covering this show.

Very excited to keep covering it.

I have no idea where we're going.

No, this episode felt so different to me in a good way, and I'm excited to keep seeing where it surprises us like that.

On the next episodes of Extra Vision, we're diving into Stranger Things to get you ready for the final season of Stranger Things, starting your starring your favorite thirty five year old cast members of Stranger Things.

That's it for this episode.

Thanks for listening, Bye bye back x.

Ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepsion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.

Our supervising producer is Abuzafar.

Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and bay Wag.

A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.

Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi.

Our disc called moderate though