Well, hello and welcome to another episode of The Covenant Eyes Podcast.

I'm Rob Stoddard.

I'm your host today, going solo, which is unusual for us, but we have a wonderful guest really excited to talk with Alex Copeman.

Alex is a father, husband, speaker, author, and probably many more things, as well as the Director of Communications for the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism.

So, Alex, welcome to The Covenant Eyes Podcast.

Rob, thanks for having me on.

And also, just on behalf of ABWE, we're grateful for Covenant Eyes and for the partnership and have known many have benefited from Covenant Eyes as well.

Ah, great.

Good to hear.

Well, Alex, if you wouldn't mind just starting us off today, tell us a little bit about your background, how you got to where you're at with ABWE and all the other things you're doing.

Well, the Lord likes to use the least likely, and I definitely put myself in that category because growing up, I was somebody who always felt as though, well, Lord, don't send me overseas into missions, don't involve me in any of those sorts of things.

And by the time getting into college, the Lord had brought me to this point of being willing and open towards that idea and praying through that with my wife when we were early on in our marriage and sort of opening up our hearts to the possibilities.

And yet where he led us to was right back to central Pennsylvania, which is not necessarily where we thought we'd end up being.

And yet the Lord led us into a role here, in church ministry and also as senders.

And so I split my time between church ministry, but then also served primarily with a WUI in our communications team, which really thrills and excites me.

So I have a background, from college in, not only biblical studies and some of the toolset of ministry, but then also communications and marketing.

And what we get to do here is just celebrate and serve our missionaries by telling stories of what God is doing among the nations and around the world.

And it's a real privilege to hold the rope for a growing family of about 1000 workers reaching in to 90 countries, and to hold the rope for them by telling people what God is doing, how they can be in prayer for them, and, just reminding people that as crazy as things might feel like they are here from time to time, that there's more that's happening beyond our borders.

Well, Alex, you are also an author.

Recently, I think this year, released a book.

Tell us a little bit about why you wrote that book and what it's all about.

Yeah.

So the latest book is, Striving for the Faith, journey through Philippians for life on Mission.

It's sitting just behind me here, and, really the premise behind that book is something that I've wrestled with for a long time, and maybe some of our listeners have wrestled with this as well.

But, I, I've known people.

I'm around many of them on a daily basis, people who feel very confident of their calling.

I know I'm supposed to be a pastor where I know I'm supposed to be a missionary and go to such and such of a country, but for me, I always felt as though I I'm interested in this, and I have this skill set here, but I don't know how all of this meshes together.

And I think it's really easy for us to see ourselves as sort of being on the sidelines of gospel Advance, when other people are more on the front lines of that.

But when I look at the book of Philippians, what I see is a book that doesn't make sense.

If one thing wasn't true about the recipients, Paul is writing to a group of people and everything that he says to encourage them.

In the book of Philippians only makes sense if you assume and recognize that the church at Philippi were all already on mission.

Living outwardly with their faith and not keeping it to themselves.

Everything that he says from chapter one to chapter four only makes sense in light of that.

And when you look at chapter one, verse 27, arguably kind of the main point of the book, he says that whether he's there or not, to see them in person, he wants to see that they're striving together side by side for the faith of the gospel.

So the question really is, what does it look like for the whole body of Christ?

Not just the pastors, not just the missionaries or the professional Christians, but what does it look like for every believer to be striving together, sort of arm in arm, kind of like in this shield formation, like you would imagine an ancient military troop doing that to progress the gospel together.

What does that practically look like for laypeople and people in all sorts of ministry positions in the church today?

So really wanted to approach the book with that in mind and see what can be mined, not just from this helpful book of Scripture that's full of encouragement, but what could be mined specifically for helping me be outward with by faith.

That was the exercise, and that's what we're inviting people to enter into.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Yeah, such a valuable question right there.

Recently I read something you had wrote that, often churches forget the why of missions.

And, can you talk a little bit about that?

Why in, in do you feel like churches really kind of need to get back to that?

Why?

As a body to, to to do two more missions?

Yeah, I think all of us, not just the church, I think in in all of the spheres of life, we forget why.

Why is one of the things that's most easily relegated to the background.

Many of us have maybe heard that old Ted Talk from Simon Sinek talking about Start with Y, and he has the Golden Circle principle.

And in the business world it's very easy if you're in sales, for instance, to talk about, well, here's the widget that we make for our company.

And aren't you interested in buying one?

Rather than starting with what the company believes, what mission drives it?

And then, oh, and as a result of that, we happen to produce this widget.

But by the time you've invited someone into that belief, they're already interested in that.

And the same thing I think applies to the church as well.

We send missionaries, I don't know, a single evangelical Christian, and I'm interacting with them all the time.

Who wouldn't say on some level that they support missionaries, pray for missions that they believe in the idea of sending out missionaries.

Of course, we want to be a part of the Great Commission making disciples of all the nations.

But why do we do that?

One of the things I think we often get wrong is it's not just out of, there is an element of compassion that's key.

There's an element of recognizing that we have the gospel.

We owe it to those who don't yet have access to the gospel.

There's something like 3 billion people in the world who've likely never heard the gospel.

They're unreached or close to being unreached with the gospel.

And of course, there's also just the duty Christ commands us.

And that's true as well.

That should be enough as well.

But one of the driving wise behind all of it is a desire for the glory of God.

It is a zeal that God's name would be known and worshiped in Christ, and that he would be honored and not dishonored in the world.

You know, we're all missionaries for something.

We're all constantly evangelizing about something.

If I go to a great steak house, it doesn't take a lot of extra effort for me to start to tell my friends about that at the water cooler the next day.

And by the same token, if we are aligned with God's heart to see his name magnified among the nations, we won't be able to help but be about his work against striving side by side for the advance of the gospel in some way.

You know, we also see a lot, you know, people say, well, we're we're missionaries, whether it's here or overseas.

Well, certainly there's an important aspect to going, being sent and going out.

But we have a lot of immigrants here in the US, right.

Are is the church doing what we need to do to to reach those folks?

Is the story of folks coming in?

Yeah, we certainly do have a lot of immigrants here, and that's a big topic of conversation lately.

One of the things that I'm constantly encouraging the church leaders that I'm talking to, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

We can think in distinct categories.

So I can recognize, for instance, with respect to the state, with respect to the government, we need rule of law.

We need order, and we need to recognize what a nation and what a people are.

Those are important things.

But we can also recognize that despite everything else that's happening nationally in terms of immigration, God is still at work.

One of the things that I love is ABWE in my organization.

Was a part of launching what we called the Afghan Initiative a few years ago after the botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.

One of the things that happened is we were sort of providentially connected with a group of underground church leaders who were now on the run, and the Taliban had put a price on all of their heads.

They ended up in a refugee camp.

That camp was closing down.

The Taliban.

You could then sort of assume is closing in on them.

At that point, we were able to help them come into the U.S legally and to do so, not just for work or for asylum, but with jobs as missionaries to reach other Afghan migrants.

And now they're continuing as Christian, Afghan expats to reach Muslim Afghans that are here in the US.

And we've actually seen several baptisms.

We're even seeing a church planted out of those who have come to Christ through their witness.

And so the nations are coming to us.

And however that makes us feel, we should, in one respect, recognize the gospel opportunity that that brings.

I do think it's a mistake to think that we shouldn't then also send missionaries, though we can't forget that what makes the unreached unreached is not just the fact that we look at them in the majority of them are non-Christian.

What makes the unreached unreached is that as far as we know, they don't actually have access to the gospel.

These are people groups.

And we're talking about 2 to 3000 people groups, depending on how you count some, some as as high as 4500 or so, distinct ethno linguistic people groups who, to less than 2% of them are evangelical believers.

They probably don't have a Bible in their language.

They probably don't have any kind of a church that they could visit.

Now, as soon as they come here to the States, in a sense, they're no longer unreached because they are within reach of hearing the gospel in principle.

But for those peoples who are still in faraway places beyond access of Scripture in their heart language beyond the reach of a missionary, we still need to be prayerfully sending.

Look, it won't be everyone, but we still need to be prayerfully sending an elite, qualified few to go to those faraway peoples in places who do not yet have the gospel.

That's right.

Amen.

That's so, so important.

Well, Alex, if I can switch gears here around missions, of course, you know, you know, Covenant Eyes is an in what we do.

We've had the privilege of working with a number of mission organizations over the years.

And, you know, of course, one of the issues that we see growing is this issue of of new people coming into missions, work, new candidates in many, many, many are struggling.

In fact, I, I spoke with one of the larger mission, groups in the country and H.R., recruiter and said that they have gotten to the point where they actually even no longer ask the question, are you struggling with pornography?

They're assuming it because so many are.

And so now they've kind of just gone to, you know, can we redeem this or can we mitigate this?

To qualify them or not?

So, you know, from your perspective in your, your expertise and in missions, how do you see this problem and what do mission organizations need to do about it?

One of the things that I see when I look at that trend is, I do think that the enemy delights in using these vices to keep people from the mission of God.

Now, don't get me wrong.

God can use you to make disciples, to be outward with your faith, whether you're feeling as though you're doing well spiritually, or if you're sort of hobbling along and, struggling in some area or another.

That's not to say that God can't use someone.

But we also have commands in Scripture that tell us there are moral character qualifications for those who are going to be gospel servants.

And a big part of that is our personal purity.

And because of that, I think of the large number of men and women, but especially men who have disqualified themselves from being used in some of those particular ministries because of giving in to these vices.

And I, I think that part of the challenge is also that we've imbibed this assumption that it is inevitable.

And maybe we think that because of the ubiquity of, you know, you see scantily clad members of the opposite sex everywhere.

You see it all over your news feed, on your device, your phone, your computer.

It's all over the news media, television, everything.

And so we think that the struggle itself means that also giving in to that struggle is completely inevitable.

And that's simply not the case.

I don't think that Christ died for his people, and so that it would be impossible for them to gain victory over it.

Paul writes to the Thessalonians that this is the will of God in Christ for you.

Your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality.

And so I think the closer we get to knowing the Lord, the more holy will become, the more aware of our own sin and insufficiency will become as well.

And to serve God and preach the gospel means we're gonna have a very acute sense of our need and our weakness and our dependency on him as creatures.

But also, Christ didn't just die for sin.

He was raised.

There is a victory that's accessible to us.

We can fight.

We can make war on this sin each day through accountability tools, but through also all of the things that God gives us in the local church the preaching of the word, the fellowship of believers, the accountability that you can only get face to face from pastors or from older, more mature Christian friends.

And so I think all of that adds up to say it's incumbent on us now to make war on the deeds of the flesh for the sake not only of our own holiness and sanctification, but all of those who need to see a pure witness from us, our neighbors, and then out from there to the nations.

Yes, it's you know, it is.

It's a it's a heart issue.

It's it's an issue that only Christ can, can solve.

You know, Covenant Eyes, our software is a great tool, and that accountability is, is necessary.

But it really is about that discipleship, drawing closer to Christ.

Driving out really these, these.

And so, we often we've seen mission agencies really just work on or focus on the behavior as you kind of talked about, but really it is about teaching that walk in and and getting people there.

So go get good, good information, great stuff.

Speaking, you kind of touched on that, that cultural piece.

I mean, that our culture now is so normalized, this hyper sexuality and, and things.

And so, you know, as a church just in general, do you feel like our culture now is is attacking the church like it never has in some of these areas.

In these areas, for sure.

I mean, I think that the the sexual revolution and everything that that's done to media isn't going away anytime soon.

And in recent months, we've seen somewhat of a vibe shift.

We're seeing it's a little bit less unpopular to try out Christianity.

Some people, Joe Rogan, you know, notably is now attending church.

Right.

So there's a growing interest in spiritual things, but by no means are some of these, you know, literally the oldest temptations in human history, particularly of a sexual kind.

Those temptations aren't going away anytime soon.

We have to be vigilant.

And, for as much as we think of the culture war as something outward, we also have to recognize anyone who's serving Christ.

Publicly.

There is a weak spot in their heart and in their testimony.

I can think of a few prominent Christians, even within the last few weeks, who we see statements and apologies and public repentance.

I was just on a long phone call this morning with someone who's, concerning someone who's a missionary who is also struggling in this area as well.

Satan's alive and well, and using these things, we have to be vigilant.

I do want to answer the previous question as well, too.

You did mention what should mission agencies do?

And I think, among many other things, providing important tools like Covenant Eyes.

I think we also need to lean into the local church.

And I think we need to make sure that just because somebody sort of raises their hand and says, oh, yes, I'm willing to go and be sent, I'm willing to volunteer.

I'm willing to serve overseas.

Well, okay.

But let's ask the important questions.

Now.

Let's get into first Peter, let's get into Titus.

Are you, are you a 1 Timothy three?

Man, or are you a, are you a Titus two woman?

Do you meet those character qualifications?

Do you have a trajectory of victory over something so that when you're thrown into a pressure cooker of temptations, you know, wife far away, away from watching eyes, you think that you may stand a good chance of standing firm.

And we need to lean into churches, to not just rubberstamp missionary candidates coming from their congregations, but to provide the accountability and support that only a, sending pastor and shepherd can do biblically.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that that's right on.

So, so important.

Perfect.

Well, as we start to get to the end here, I want to give you a chance to see we have a lot of pastors who listen to the covenant podcast.

You know, if you have any words of encouragement, you know, that you might want to give, pastors around missions or anything else.

Go ahead.

My encouragement to to pastors and, say this as a fellow elder, as well, but, I'm always sensitive to when there's a church or organizations that sort of want to just sell their product to pastors, and to churches.

And here's the key for your ministry that you're missing.

And here's the latest resource or toolkit, for you and so much of that, I think we, we see, we we become numb to that as pastors and shepherds and, and not all of that feels sincere when it comes to missions.

It can feel incredibly distracting.

What do you mean?

I got to think about international missions.

Like I just did a funeral, right?

I'm doing a wedding in two weeks.

I have this and that appointment.

I'm dealing with this angry congregant.

I heard of a pastor recently.

You know, they weren't able to deal with a missionary issue because their building had just been, devastated by a tornado.

I mean, there's all sorts of things that assail us as shepherds over the flock and I fundamentally want to say to, to pastors, that's that's okay.

That's a feature, not a bug.

And missions shouldn't be thought of as an imposition on top of that or something competing with all of that.

I think that mission and I want to say that's local as well as global, right?

That's not just something we do in faraway places.

It is the overflow of ordinary pastoral ministry.

You know, the first book that I had the privilege of putting together with Chad Vegas, who's a pastor in Bakersfield, California.

He's a part of Radius International, another great organization.

We put that together specifically so that pastors would have a tool in their hand to realize, like, I can be involved in missions and I can be a part of my missions committee, and I can do that.

It's not a distraction from my ordinary ministry.

It's it's the overflow of it.

Because gospel ministry there is not fundamentally different from gospel ministry here.

It's just far away.

It's in another language and context and culture.

So don't be intimidated by it.

Lean into it.

Even with all the mess that it brings.

That's a natural part of the ministry that God's called us to, but there's a way for us to engage it as well and not feel as though we have to tiptoe around missions or feel guilty about it or avoid it.

There's an ordinary way that we can be a part of it, and integrate it into our churches as well.

Yeah.

That's great.

I love that verbiage of overflow of our ministry.

It's, it's such an important piece.

Well, Alex, been wonderful.

This time has gone so fast.

But, for our listeners, how do they find your information, maybe some of your resources and certainly your book.

Where do they find that out?

Sure, sure.

So we have a number of articles and podcasts.

We have a weekly show, the Missions Podcast, all that can be found at ABWE.org or the show itself at missionspodcast.com.

If they're on social media, you can just look me up by my name, Alex Kocman, K-O-C-man.

And then those books are out there too, on Amazon.

Or if you buy them from Founder's Ministries, you can get them from the publisher there as well.

So Amazon doesn't necessarily take their cut.

But you can find that just by googling.

And I'd love to be in touch with anyone out there who wants to talk more.

Well, excellent.

And we'll put those in in the show notes as we release this.

But, Alex, thank you so much for joining us.

Like I said, this went so fast.

I'd love to have you on and talk a little, deeper in some of these issues, but, again, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for your ministry.

Thank you for your work at ABWE.

We appreciate it.

Rob.

Thanks and appreciate all that.

You guys are doing.

Well, great.

Well, to our listeners, thanks for joining us and tuning in.

Please share a like this.

And stay tuned for the next episode of The Covenant, Today's podcast.

That's it for today.

God bless.

Take care.