Adam: Like, Grant Morrison did so much better in, like, All Star Superman when, like, you know, having that loot, that Lex, who is doing, like, these sort of, like, cosmic pranks.

Adam: I think Morrison did a better job of it than some of these stories did because it.

Adam: It does.

Adam: It's very silly.

Adam: It's so silly.

Adam: He's like, I'm gonna dress up as Superman, and, like, so that way I can have these two heroes fight.

Adam: It's like.

Adam: Or you could have just kidnapped him.

Case: Also, he dresses, like, regular.

Case: This is a world with Superman robots like Lex.

Case: You got into a costume with a mask like that made sense.

Case: Thank God you're in good enough shape to pull it off, right?

Adam: I mean, it just.

Adam: As plot contrivances go, it is not my favorite.

Case: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast.

Case: I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jm.

Case: ike Folson.

Jmike: Hello from the void, Case.

Jmike: We are back today for more fun.

Case: And adventures, Fun and adventures.

Case: Crossing over yet again with a wonderful nerd.

Case: We are joined yet again by Adam Lance Garcia.

Adam: Thanks.

Case: I can't.

Case: I don't mean.

Adam: I mean, it's true.

Adam: I mean, I really.

Adam: I can't deny that I am a huge nerd, because for those of you listening on the radio, you can't see that there is a giant bookcase of Star wars novels right behind me.

Adam: And then in.

Adam: And Case can't see this because it's closed, but there's an entire closet full of even more Star wars books that I might have collected over the course of my 42 years of life.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Some of which you wrote.

Adam: One of which I've wrote.

Adam: Written so far.

Jmike: So far.

Case: Right.

Case: Well, yeah, unfortunately, were talking off mic beforehand.

Case: Adam's got a lot of projects that he can't talk about.

Adam: I'm very tired.

Adam: I'm very tired.

Case: But, you know, it's been a while since we've had you on Men of Steel, and it's always fun to sort of, like, talk about connections with Superman.

Case: What is your history with Superman?

Adam: I mean, like, Superman was my very first fandom.

Adam: I don't remember this because I was so young, but, like, my.

Adam: My father was a huge comic book nerd and introduced me to, like, you know, the original 1976 Superman, Christopher Reeve and I.

Adam: I loved it.

Adam: I called it Super S.

Adam: I have many, many, many photos.

Adam: Superman pajamas.

Adam: And there's a photo of me wearing, like, a Superman, like, muscle shirt.

Adam: It's really, like, weird.

Adam: It's like it's like I'm like eight.

Adam: I have right now.

Adam: You can't see it.

Adam: It's off camera.

Adam: I'll show you guys.

Adam: You might be able to see it here.

Adam: There's a Max Fleischer.

Adam: It's kind of blurry in this photo, but it's a Max Fleischer esque.

Adam: It's a Max Fleischer illustration that my dad had that I've inherited.

Adam: Superman was like, you know, kind of like the.

Adam: How do I even phrase this?

Adam: In the Mac Fleischer cartoons, I would sit in the bathroom reenacting the scene where he's getting shot with the ray beam, and I'd be punching the shower because they had to stop.

Adam: Superman was kind of like my gateway drug for all the fandoms that I'm a part of.

Adam: I would not say that I'm as passionate as I was back when I was a kid, but Superman was the gateway.

Adam: Like I said, he was the very first superhero I loved.

Adam: I'm fascinated by him.

Adam: I think there's a lot one can still say with him.

Adam: He's the.

Adam: He's amazing.

Adam: You know, he's just.

Adam: He's my.

Adam: Like I said, he's my first addiction.

Case: Well, yeah, and he's a very foundational superhero.

Case: And, you know, clearly a foundation for the subject matter that were talking about today, because we buried the goddamn lead, baby.

Case: We are talking about the original DC Marvel crossover.

Case: It's technically the second collaboration of them, but the first superhero crossover of that, of them all.

Case: We are talking about Superman versus the Amazing Spider man today, which I am.

Adam: Very excited about, because even though it was before my time, I love crossovers.

Adam: I think when they're done right, they're some of the best comics you can get.

Adam: And it's just like.

Adam: Yeah, I think that we kind of take it as, like, as rote as, you know, because at this point, we're expecting yet another DC Marvel crossover in the near future.

Adam: You know, we've had the Malcolm Universe.

Adam: We've had JLA Avengers.

Adam: We've had all of these multiple crossovers.

Adam: I think we don't realize how rare it was that these two characters would meet because, again, this is the first time they ever did.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Case: This is a 1976 crossover story written by Gerry Conway, drawn by Ross Andrew, inked by Dick Giordano.

Case: Sorry, fumbled over that one.

Case: And then it was edited by Carmine Infantino and Stan Lee.

Case: So we have a pretty impressive crew working on this whole thing.

Case: There's also a whole bunch of people who have, like, uncredited roles, like Neal Adams, like, redrew all the Superman drawings.

Adam: Yeah, you can, apparently.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Uncredited.

Case: Because this was.

Case: This was a big project.

Case: Well, so my question for the.

Case: Just leading off, had either of you read this before?

Case: We read this for the.

Case: For the show.

Jmike: I'd seen it before.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: I mean, my dad had it, and I've definitely seen it.

Adam: I mean, I think that cover is so iconic that we've all sort of know of this crossover.

Adam: But this is the first time I read it, and it was both everything I expected and nothing like I expected.

Case: Yes, a teacher of mine had one or had a copy in junior high, so I read one then.

Case: But it's been a long time since I've read this.

Case: But I always remembered it being like, oh, yeah, you know, it's the Doc Ock, Lex Luthor crossover.

Case: Like that.

Case: You know, it's such a simple concept for putting them all together there.

Case: But, yeah, it had been a while for me, so I was really glad when you suggested this one.

Case: We recently picked up our Omnibuy of the DC Marvel crossovers.

Adam: It's so heavy.

Case: It's so dang heavy.

Adam: I thought it was gonna be smaller, but it's so big.

Adam: And I can't wait.

Case: It's not even all of them.

Case: This is volume one.

Adam: This is volume one.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Cause this is the amalgam crossover that it hasn't come out yet.

Adam: And it doesn't include JLA Avengers, which is, for my money, the goat of them all.

Case: Yes.

Adam: I've forgotten half of these.

Adam: And what's interesting, just looking through the omnibus is when you can tell they stopped caring.

Adam: Like, when the art just kind of like.

Adam: Like it's the 90s, and they're just like, this is money.

Adam: We don't need to give a shit about, like, the quality of the art.

Adam: There's some.

Adam: You're just like, this is.

Adam: This is not great.

Adam: And then there's like, some, like, you know, Jerry Ordway is doing.

Adam: No.

Adam: Is there.

Adam: Maybe it's Jerry Conway.

Adam: No, it's Neil Adams doing, like, the.

Adam: The crossover with Batman.

Adam: And who is this?

Adam: It's Batman and Captain America.

Adam: And it's just like that.

Adam: Right?

Adam: That's how you do it.

Case: Wait, no, the Batman.

Case: Captain America.

Adam: Oh, John Brin.

Adam: Excuse me, John Brin.

Adam: My apologies.

Adam: But yeah, it's just like.

Adam: Yeah, there's like, some shining lights in the.

Adam: In the middle, but like, yeah, they.

Adam: There's some in here where you're just like, this is not.

Adam: Not the best art.

Adam: But then you get like again, the Superman Hulk one.

Adam: You're like, this is beautiful.

Case: Yeah, we talked about the Superman Hulk one already.

Case: So.

Case: Yeah, it's a mixed bag for.

Case: For sure.

Adam: Oh, 100%.

Case: You know, I'm also a big fan of Ron Lim who did the, the Superman Silver Surfer crossover.

Adam: Yeah, that on.

Case: Yeah.

Case: So it's, it's a, A whopping collection of books.

Case: And I will say that the Spider Man Superman crossover is a, A an all star team for when it comes out.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And there's some like this.

Case: I will say this omnibus is worth it for.

Case: For sure.

Case: Like the Spider Man Superman team up is possibly by itself worth it just because of its historical notoriety.

Case: But like the X Men Teen Titans crossover is also like super worth it by itself.

Adam: I need to.

Adam: I'm really excited to read that because I've only ever heard like that's one of those crossovers that, you know, kind of set a standard.

Case: Yeah, it's really good.

Case: It was actually my introduction to the Teen Titans when I read it because I was super, you know, child of the 90s, super familiar with the X Men, especially from the cartoons.

Case: But.

Case: But yeah, I hadn't really been familiar with the Teen Titans because they weren't really big when were like, you know, like early 90s was not a big time.

Adam: Not a big time.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: I actually, I have it on my Kindle, but there's a novelization.

Adam: There's also a comic that I'm of Star Trek.

Adam: That's a crossover that I really want to read.

Case: Right.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Which I can't.

Adam: I'm still sort of like that actually happened.

Adam: But yeah, no, and like it's interesting like just focusing on the DC Marvel of it all.

Adam: It's like, you know the one.

Adam: There's some pairings in this book where you're just like, well, of course that.

Adam: That's the crossover that should have happened.

Adam: You know, like obviously Superman and Spider man, that is a natural like combination because of.

Adam: They're the titans of their respective universe.

Adam: Teen Titans vs X Men.

Adam: You can sort of.

Adam: You can definitely see that connection.

Adam: And then there are some.

Adam: You're just like, why are these two together?

Adam: That doesn't make any sense.

Adam: But like, because there's like that.

Adam: What is it?

Adam: Like there's one where it's like Punisher and like the Azarel Batman.

Adam: And you're just like, yeah, I guess.

Adam: Sure.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: You're like, yeah, well enough.

Adam: You know, it certainly makes money oh, yeah.

Adam: Again, like that's what I was saying.

Adam: Like you can tell like that's when they like Daredevil and Batman.

Adam: That makes sense.

Adam: But then you look at the artwork and you're like, oh God, this is so 90s.

Adam: But then there's a second like Daredevil and Batman or like, oh, they got it better.

Adam: Yeah, it's.

Adam: It's really fascinating.

Adam: I mean it.

Adam: It's also like a really good exploration of like the comic industry and how it evolved over time youe know, like the Galactus versus Dark side makes perfect sense.

Adam: You're like, why wasn't this thought of beforehand?

Adam: But yeah, then there are some.

Adam: You're just like, I don't know, man.

Case: Yeah.

Case: I will say the Superman stuff that is in this book is pretty stellar.

Case: And I do want us to focus a little bit on this specific story because it is so historic.

Case: Like I said, this is the first crossover of DC and Marvel superheroes.

Case: Like I said, they had worked on a project before.

Case: Hang on.

Case: Night.

Adam: Yeah, I didn't know about that.

Adam: What is that?

Case: Was it a Wizard of Oz project?

Adam: You're a Wizard of Oz project.

Jmike: There's a Wizard of Oz project.

Adam: Yeah, you're right.

Adam: Wizard of Oz.

Adam: MGM's Marvel's wizard of Oz.

Adam: Marvel and DC Presents.

Adam: That's crazy.

Case: Yeah.

Case: I always knew this as the first crossover, but technically it's the second.

Case: But it is the first crossover of DC and Marvel properties.

Case: It's just the second time that they worked together like they co published a thing was they did MGM as Marvelous wizard of Oz before that.

Case: So it's really important in that regard.

Case: It's featuring an interesting period here.

Case: So this is a period when Carmine Infantino was running the editorial department for DC and Steve Stan Lee was Stan Lee for Marvel.

Adam: Right.

Case: For all that's worth, the team that's on here is an interesting one.

Case: Jerry Conway and Ross Andrew are notable for being the creators of the Punisher.

Case: For starters, this is a team that has worked quite a bit on Spider Man.

Case: They've also both worked on Superman at this point in their careers and so have a pretty good track record with that.

Case: But of course then there's all these other people involved.

Case: So Dick Giordano and Neil Adams had a studio together.

Case: So my understanding is like when the pencils got shipped over to Giordano, he handed over to Adams and Adams just redrew a bunch of the Superman stuff.

Case: Likewise John Romita senior apparently redrew a bunch of the faces for some of the Marvel characters just to like get them more in the house style kind of thing.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, it's funny.

Adam: Sorry.

Adam: Sorry to interrupt you there, Chris.

Adam: But like, it was interesting because I was definitely like, sort of.

Adam: I mean, I didn't know this when I was reading it, but I definitely caught like, oh, wow.

Adam: Like these characters look very true to, like, their respective styles.

Adam: And it made me think of like the big Image crossover that never got finished, where the idea was that like, every Image creator would draw their own characters so that way, like, it would all sort of be consistent with their styles.

Adam: And I was sort of like, oh, wow.

Adam: Like, you know, Peter Parker looks like Peter Parker did at that time and you know, Superman looked like Superman, but I didn't.

Adam: They felt like of their p.

Adam: Of a piece, I felt like they fit together.

Adam: They also felt very much like, oh, that's the DC house style and that's the Marvel style.

Adam: And it's so like to know that they actually changed.

Adam: It was kind of like a good confirmation.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Case: This is a lot of fusions of stuff which is cool to see after so much has gone into it at this point.

Case: Again, this is 1976.

Case: DC and Marvel have been major rivals for 20 plus years.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And have existed as rivals for like 40 years.

Adam: This.

Case: Or like 30 some years even.

Case: Even though Marvel was timely and Atlas and all that stuff beforehand and also wasn't a big, you know, heavy duty, it was not, you know, the number two spot next to dc.

Case: There were a lot of competitors in the period.

Case: It's.

Case: It's kind of like the Mesozoic era where you have like the Triassic period where there's like all the Crocodilians and all these things that are, you know, could have.

Case: Could have succeeded.

Case: And then the Jurassic and it's like, nope.

Case: Now we're on the dinosaurs and the birds.

Case: Yeah, sorry, that was, that was.

Adam: The nerdiest thing you could have said.

Adam: And we're talking like, I, I just know.

Adam: I want everyone to pause and appreciate that, like, that was the nerdiest thing you could have said on a podcast dedicated to Superman.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Very proud of you.

Case: Yep.

Case: But.

Case: But we're talking about two companies that had a historic rivalry.

Case: Like they would poach talent from each other all the time.

Case: They, they were fighting each other's for sales.

Case: And DC specifically had the position of being like the tried and true.

Case: Like they invented the genre with Superman.

Case: And like most of the golden age characters that we can think of go back to them.

Case: So you could see the upstart like Marvel had carved out a niche for itself in the 60s that, you know, was seen as.

Case: As a threat to the people at dc.

Case: So the fact that they actually were able to come together is a pretty big deal because it also.

Case: While, yeah, it happens a few times, it doesn't happen that often.

Case: Like, there are many stretches in history where it' yeah.

Case: Not only will you not see the.

Case: See a crossover, you won't see reprinting of crossovers.

Adam: I mean, were kind of in that period for a very long time to that point.

Adam: Like, I think, like, the only time, like, we had the JLA Avengers was the last time they had a crossover.

Adam: And that's, like, been, what, 20 years?

Case: That was like, 20 years.

Case: And then it was a huge deal to reprint it.

Case: And that was because of George Perez's death.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And now, like, we're getting.

Adam: The fact that we're getting one at all kind of feels like a mount of miracle.

Adam: Like, they just.

Adam: What?

Adam: They just announced it, and it kind of seems like with all.

Adam: With both of their, like, respective corporate overlords of Disney and.

Adam: And, you know, whatever the hell Zaslav is doing, no one knows.

Adam: It's kind of like you're like, you.

Adam: The only way I can.

Adam: I can.

Adam: I can just.

Adam: The only reason I can understand this happening.

Adam: There's another DC Marvel crossover happening is that James Gunn and Kevin Feige like each other, and they're like, just fucking make it happen, guys.

Adam: And they're like, all right, that's the only way I can justify it.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Like in the modern era or a scale similar to it.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: You know, because it seemed impossible when.

Case: When this happened.

Case: And it makes sense that they would go with Spider man and Superman, right?

Case: Like.

Adam: Oh, yeah, of course.

Case: Biggest characters, especially in the 70s.

Case: Like, you.

Case: Like, you could make arguments that it's.

Case: Well, Batman makes more sense now.

Case: And you can make arguments for, like, the X Men or, you know, whichever.

Case: Or Iron man or something now because of the MCU or.

Case: Or Captain America because of the MCU.

Case: But especially in 1976, Superman and Spider man made a lot of goddamn sense.

Adam: Oh, yeah.

Adam: There's no doubt about it.

Adam: Like, it just those two at that time.

Adam: There's no other.

Adam: There's no other choice, really.

Case: Yeah.

Case: And in terms of what characters to match up, aside from popularity, it makes sense.

Case: Like, Spider man is based on Superman.

Case: Like, you know, he's a very distinct character into his own right.

Case: But he is the same archetype of Here's a red and blue clad superhero with powers and abilities far beyond mortal men, who works as a reporter, who wears glasses and is, you know, bespectacled, secret identity and all those things.

Case: These are all elements of the superhero genre that Spider man takes on and then inverts and does all kinds of twists to.

Case: But Spider man is very much a commentary on like, what had become the classic tropes of superheroes, and Superman is the classic tropes of superheroes.

Case: So it makes sense to have those two, like, come up against each other.

Case: I mean, like, one of the big things that happens here is that we get the classic they fight and then they team up situation.

Case: And part of that is because Spider man is known as a criminal or is like, widely believed to be an outlaw.

Jmike: Yeah, vigilante.

Case: Well, exactly.

Case: And so, like, that allows for a situation where Superman, who is very much like the law and order character, to be at odds with him.

Case: And that only happens because you have a more creative, or not more creative, but like a character that was fighting the mold that Superman set.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: But what's interesting though is like, you know, and I think we'll get more into this because it's definitely of its era.

Adam: Like, I feel like what you're laying out that like, Superman's like the law and order character in quotes in that.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And, you know, he's seen as like the, the embodiment of justice.

Adam: And Spider man publicly is seen as a vigilante.

Adam: At least that's how he's portrayed in the media, thanks to J.

Adam: Jonah Jameson.

Adam: You know, you would think that like, there's a sort of like, oh, he's the villain.

Adam: So.

Adam: But that's not really how this story plays out necessarily, you know, at least because in the way it kind of like, it's very brief, but it's not like it's not core to the story.

Adam: It's basically.

Case: Oh, I just meant that's how the conflict with them was allowed to occur in the first place that he has.

Adam: Right, right.

Adam: But like, but like, you know, in this version of the story, and maybe we're jumping a little ahead, it.

Adam: Spider man thinks Superman did something wrong.

Adam: And then like, Spider man is.

Case: So it's interesting Superman thinks Spider Man's involved because Spider.

Case: He thinks Spider man is an outlaw.

Adam: Right.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And that.

Adam: But like, that's an aspect of it.

Adam: What's so interesting about the story.

Adam: And we'll again, we'll dive more into it and specific.

Adam: Specific.

Adam: I speak English specificity.

Adam: What I think is interesting with this story is that, like, there's so much of this.

Adam: If it had been written today, there'd be so much more nuance and like, narrative build up to the, you know, the fight.

Adam: There's so like world building in terms of like, how like these two characters operate in the same universe.

Adam: But like, when it was written, you know, like, yeah, like they fight and then they team up and then they beat the bad guys.

Adam: It's very straightforward in its, its narrative.

Case: Yeah, yeah, it's an incredibly straightforward story.

Case: And I will say this, like, the team knew that it was going to be difficult to sort of justify it.

Case: Justify it specifically.

Case: Jerry Conway, like, has a quote where he says, like, there was no way we could rationally explain this, so we might as well just exist in a world where like, they just happen to have not met yet.

Case: Like, and it just kind of just would just flow from there.

Case: Because, like, it's a big story.

Case: Like, this is like 92 pages.

Adam: Something about that.

Adam: Yeah, it's like, I think it was like 80, like 89 page count.

Adam: I was tracking that.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And then, I mean, like there's like additional bonus material on top of that.

Case: But yeah, I mean, it's a big story, but it's still.

Case: Like I, I was thinking about that quote specifically because it occurred to me that any scenario where they actually would justify it properly would be about some kind of cosmic threat or would be like a Lex Luthor plot specifically, and not really a team up with someone on the other side.

Case: Like, if it was going to be like a crossover world situation, that's why it always turns into like a blue laser in the sky situation.

Case: Like, like it has to be some sort of justification for why if you're going to have them as separate worlds in the multiverse, whatever threat brings them together has to engage with the multiverse, which by its very definition has to be like fairly big, which works fine for Superman.

Case: But if you want to do specifically Superman and Spider Man's enemies and you want to do lex Luthor and Dr.

Case: Octopus, like, don't do that.

Case: Like, don't do something of that scale.

Case: Be smaller like this, like the giant robot's almost too big a scale.

Adam: No, that's the thing.

Adam: Like, what's interesting is like, to your point, like, I think it was a good choice, but also I think it's.

Adam: Again, I'm gonna try to not get too in the weeds on this one, but I think for the time it was written, I think Conway's approach of just making, like, this sort of alternate universe where they just kind of exist.

Adam: You can call it, like, Earth, whatever.

Adam: And this is where they sort of exist in the.

Adam: In parallel, like, all they're shared.

Case: It is jokingly called Earth dollar sign.

Adam: Really?

Case: Yeah.

Adam: I didn't know that.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: So an Earth dollar sign.

Adam: Like, I think it's a.

Adam: Like, they made a good choice and just, like, just accept this is the first time they've met in this universe.

Adam: You can sort of, like, they basically state that, like, all the stories that you know of have happened, but they just haven't.

Adam: In this universe, they haven't met.

Adam: But what's interesting, like, what I kept on thinking is, like, if I were writing this today and the remit was like, just make it in a world where both of these characters exist, I was kind of like, wouldn't it be interesting if.

Adam: If, like, it was at the Daily Planet and, like, you just kind of merge the two worlds.

Adam: Like, you kind of pull an amalgam universe, but not an amalgam universe where, like, you know, let's say J.

Adam: Jonah Jameson is the publisher and Perry White is the editor of the.

Adam: Of the Daily, you know, Planet instead of.

Adam: And like, you know, Clark Kent is one of the reporters, and instead of Jimmy Olsen, it's Peter Parker.

Adam: And, like, you could have, like, them be this sort of, like, you know, you can find all these ways to kind of merge their universe.

Adam: I'm overthinking this.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: But, like, that's like.

Adam: So, like, that's where my brain was going of, like, how do I, like, have these characters, like, be a part of, like, this shared history, but also, like, feel like they're of a piece, but, like, that's not how they're thinking in 1976.

Adam: They're just like.

Adam: They have different.

Adam: They, you know, here they are now.

Adam: They meet.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Well, there's also a couple things to consider in 1976, like, which is that the.

Case: The status quo has shifted slightly for Superman at this point.

Case: Superman is not a newspaper reporter at this point.

Adam: Yeah, right.

Adam: That's so weird.

Adam: That was the.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Case: And so we do have to remember is an influence in terms of, like, what the stories that they could actually tell.

Case: He's.

Case: He's a newscaster.

Case: He is anchorman, actually, for gbs, and so he works for Morgan Edge.

Case: And they.

Case: They do this thing at the end, which I'm like, man, they're just doing the.

Case: The spider man video or like photographing himself thing, like where he has like a video camera that he set up to like record Superman in action.

Case: And I'm like, so we're just doing Spider man at this point.

Case: Like Superman's just doing the Spider man trick which like, as we established earlier has the great possible flaw of not being able to record anything of value if you do it wrong.

Adam: Yeah, that was one of my favorite little.

Adam: I'm like, that's a really good Spider man beat.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Okay, so I have a hot take about this issue before we go into it, which is that this is a really good Spider man issue.

Case: And like it's sort of a status quo Superman issue of the day.

Case: It's very good at reminding you of the status quo of Superman, that he's not working at the Daily Planet anymore, that he is working at gbs.

Case: Because like it would be so easy if he was at the Daily Planet.

Case: Just have Peter Parker walk across town to get to try to sell some photos there.

Case: And then all of a sudden you, you just have that world.

Case: And then J.

Case: Jonah Jameson gets mad at Perry for potion his photographer.

Adam: And that'd be great.

Case: Like you got it.

Case: Like that's fine.

Case: But, but that's in a universe where they're news reporters together, which is the original concept and why they still can cross over here.

Case: Like I think the conceit of it being a convention, like a newspaper con.

Adam: Or like a really good choice convention.

Case: It makes a lot of sense for both of them to be there.

Case: Like, and it's like, okay, yeah, it's in New York.

Case: So that's why I like instead of Metropolis.

Case: And that's why like, or whichever, maybe it's reversed.

Adam: No, no, it's in New York.

Adam: And like, because Clark says something along, this city's really dirty.

Case: Yeah, yeah, I was annoyed by that.

Adam: I'm like, I'm like, okay, look, okay, fair.

Adam: I'll give you this.

Adam: 1976 New York was a shithole.

Adam: Like, I'm.

Adam: I'm not gonna fight you on this.

Case: But it's our shithole.

Adam: I know, I know, I know, I know.

Adam: Yeah, but also, I mean, it was.

Case: I know, I know it was.

Case: It truly was.

Case: I mean this is the era of like Taxi Driver and shit.

Case: Like, yeah, you know, we like, we know what New York looked like.

Case: We know what New York looked like.

Case: To the point where people mistake the warriors for being like about a true hero.

Adam: No, I.

Adam: So a quick Aside.

Adam: So this is during the pandemic, and they first started opening up the movie theaters again.

Adam: And one of the first movies I saw was the Warriors.

Adam: And my mom, who grew up in New York in the 70s and 60s and 70s, he's like, well, you have to be careful.

Adam: Like, people are really crazy right now.

Adam: I'm like, mom, I'm gonna see the Warriors.

Adam: Don't tell me what it was, how crazy it is.

Adam: It's nothing compared to what it was like, in the 70s.

Adam: Like, no, no, no.

Adam: You do not get to say that.

Adam: But yes.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: So, yeah, New York was a.

Adam: New York was a shithole in the 60s.

Case: Yeah, it's true.

Case: But I did take a little bit of a.

Case: Like, how dare you, sir?

Jmike: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Adam: Oh, same.

Case: I may not live in New York anymore, but it is still a city that I love.

Case: But, yeah.

Case: Anyway, so, yeah, so Superman is in this very particular state at this point.

Case: They travel to New York, and that is a wonderful convention for bringing the characters together.

Case: It makes a ton of sense.

Adam: A literal convention, if not.

Case: Yeah.

Case: I mean, a literal one.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Is it at the Javit Center?

Adam: I was wondering that.

Adam: I'm like, is this at the Javits Center?

Adam: It'd be hilarious if it was.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: I mean, now, can you.

Case: If they remade this comic today, they.

Case: They would have to make allusions to, like, comic Con culture.

Case: Like, that.

Case: Like, Con culture didn't really exist the same way in the 70s.

Adam: It really, like.

Adam: No.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Not to the degree.

Adam: Like, as my dad went to this, like, convention, the comic conventions in the 70s, it was nothing like it is today.

Adam: Right.

Case: It'd be like an expos?

Case: Floor, like, you know, some, like, hotel or something like that.

Adam: Oh, yeah.

Adam: With, like, a lot of people.

Adam: Like, old men smoking.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: So I think that is a really useful method.

Case: And.

Case: And so getting back again to the newspaper element of it or, like, the newsman element of both Spider man and Superman, like, it makes a lot of sense to bring them together in this sort of seamless, like, way that isn't really fighting each other's narratives.

Case: Like, it.

Case: Like, nothing aside from the fact that they don't know each other.

Case: Like, there's nothing necessarily that feels like off about either of their.

Case: Their respective worlds.

Case: I'd say more for.

Case: More for Superman because he knows everyone.

Case: Like, it's weird that he hasn't met everyone.

Adam: Yes and no.

Adam: So here's my thinking on this.

Adam: So, like, you kind of have to remember that Superman is a global character where Spider man is very much a New York character.

Case: Right.

Adam: I think it's sort of like, why doesn't everyone know Daredevil in the mcu?

Adam: You know, Like, I don't think everyone knows Peacemaker in the dcu.

Adam: Like, I think it's one of the appeals of Spider man, though.

Adam: Like, though he gets involved with cosmic things.

Adam: You know, you do have secret wars and elements like that.

Adam: I think his core appeal is he is your friendly neighborhood Spider Man.

Adam: The appeal of Spider man is that he is going to be swinging through the canyons of New York.

Adam: He's going to be swinging.

Adam: He's not going to be necessarily stopping a tidal wave in Guam.

Adam: Right.

Adam: So, like, you know, while it's like, well, why doesn't he know?

Adam: Like, I mean, like, it makes sense for, like, Spider man and Superman's no Spider Man.

Adam: Batman and I think Superman knows of Spider Man.

Adam: I think Spider man and like, I think they make it clear that, like, they both know of each other.

Case: Of each other?

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: They've not met because, like, but, like, well, why would they?

Adam: You know, it's just like, I don't know everyone.

Adam: Like, I know lots of people, but I don't know everyone that's doing things in New York because, like, you know, I'm over here, you know, they're over there.

Adam: So.

Adam: Yeah, but, like, that's true.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Case: I was.

Case: It's just again, like, the one thing where you're like, oh, well, if they're sharing a world, they probably like, just based on them both having, like, fairly long careers at this point.

Case: But that, again, like, I think it works is what I'm getting at that in terms of like, this shared world for the two of them is fine.

Case: Because at some point, all characters have to exist in their own world and then sort of like get integrated into each other.

Case: Unless they're really being created for a shared universe concept.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Like more modern superher heroes.

Case: But, like, you know, it was a big deal the first time Batman and Superman were in the same space together.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Like, you know, because they weren't for a long time.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: As the last time you were on here, were talking about the Batman Superman radio show crossover.

Case: We're always doing crossovers with you.

Adam: Yeah, I, I like, again, I like crossovers, but also, like, I feel like that episode specifically was so weird.

Adam: Such a, like, I, I, I don't know how to, like, describe it to people who haven't listened to the episode, but, like, if you can find that, if you Find the episode, listen to us talk about it.

Adam: But like, if you can find the original like radio drama.

Adam: It's so weird.

Adam: Yeah, it's so weird.

Adam: And of its a lot more carnival.

Case: Stuff than I carnival.

Adam: And it also like, strangely what we're like was 2023 or 2021.

Adam: God, when we record them, it was a while ago.

Adam: 2022, I think actually.

Case: 21 or 22.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: Like, you know, even in like the 21st century lens, it's very homoerotic in a way that like was not intentional back then.

Adam: Very like, you know, it's like, it's kind of like it is not intended in any way when it's written.

Adam: But like today it's like Jimmy Olsen and Dick Raisin are totally dating.

Case: Yep.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: No, but like I, I think what's interesting is like, I think to your point though, it's like in some capacity, like the story that's being told in this crossover does feel like a good first meeting for these two characters.

Adam: That being said, again, to your point, like their respective histories at this point make it feel like no, they should have met earlier.

Adam: You know, it's like I feel like this story would work slightly better if Clark was still working at the Planet.

Adam: If I, I, I, I think with Peter Parker it kind of makes sense to be where he is in his age because like he's in college at this.

Case: He's in college.

Case: It's post the Gwen Stacy stuff.

Case: So like it's a different era for him in that regard.

Case: But he is still a college student explicitly in this.

Adam: Yeah, so it's like it just, it feels like, yeah, again, to your point, like it feels better for where Spider man is, but for Superman it feels a little off.

Adam: You're like, this doesn't.

Adam: It's.

Adam: And I think this is a big thing about crossovers and things that I sort of like, I, I've dealt with the, some crossover that I've written where it's like, you know, it does it like.

Adam: So I wrote this crossover.

Adam: God, I don't even want to think about how long ago it was now.

Adam: Maybe it's like six years ago.

Adam: Jesus.

Adam: Maybe more.

Adam: It was the Sherlock Holmes and Green Llama story.

Adam: And like my publisher was like, can you do a Green Llama Sherlock Holmes crossover?

Adam: And I said that sounds like a terrible idea.

Adam: And then I found a way to do it and I'm actually really proud of this story.

Adam: It's one of my favorite novellas.

Adam: I've written because, like, basically not to get too deep into the weeds on it, but I found a way that like, his.

Adam: His initial pitch was like, well, like, have them solve the same mystery in two different time periods.

Adam: I'm like, that's boring.

Adam: Like, I don't like.

Adam: I love crossovers.

Adam: I don't want to have a crossover where like, they're communicating like through like letters.

Adam: Like, I want these two characters to meet.

Adam: So I found a way to like, sort of like play with the conceits of Holmes by having like his assistant write the story of the monograph.

Adam: And then I.

Adam: And in the canon of the Green Llama, like he had written his monographs, I'm like, oh, so I'll have Jethro Dumont, the Green Llama, be the assistant to an elderly Sherlock Holmes.

Adam: So that way they can like be together.

Adam: You know, I can stay within their both canon.

Adam: So it's a.

Adam: But it's also a sunrise sunset story where it's the beginning of this one guy's career, the end of this other guy's career.

Adam: Have them meet together and like, play to their core appeal while still like being respective other personal canons.

Adam: But I don't think they landed that with this crossover with Superman and Spider man because I feel like with Superman it just.

Adam: He doesn't feel his.

Adam: Because of when it's told.

Adam: It doesn't feel right to see him doing.

Adam: Being a news reporter.

Adam: Does anything that I just said make any sense?

Adam: Because we can edit this or we can edit this.

Case: Yeah, no, it does.

Case: Like, for one thing, it's just awkward having him be a news reporter.

Case: Like a.

Adam: It doesn't feel right.

Jmike: Like news anchor.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Case: Not a news reporter.

Case: Like a tv.

Case: TV newsman.

Case: Like.

Case: Like that always just feels strange.

Case: Like.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And on top of that, Superman and his supporting cast feel like guests in this book.

Case: I feel like this is a very marvelish book I.

Case: I think from.

Case: And like, the fact of the matter is it's the Spider man team that's.

Case: That's writing this book.

Adam: Right, right.

Case: And writing and putting this together.

Case: And it has a lot of like Stan Lee, like kind of inserts and so forth.

Case: And we'll get to a couple of those as.

Case: As we go because we do want to go beat by beat on this one.

Case: But.

Case: But yeah, like it's.

Case: It feels like Superman and his crew are popping in to say hi and it's a very good version of that.

Adam: Oh yeah.

Case: But you know, it's.

Case: They are guest spots in here and it is a particularly Awkward period in the Superman canon for him to be that guest spot.

Adam: I think that's.

Adam: That's it.

Adam: I think it's like, it's an awkward.

Adam: There are other elements in other periods of time that probably be more awkward.

Adam: Like when he is, like, the electric blue or electric red version of Superman.

Adam: Like, those are probably more awkward periods.

Adam: But, like, for first meeting between these two characters, I think having Superman be the news anchor does feel like.

Adam: So, like, how do I phrase this?

Case: Because it feels like we're missing out on, like, the classic Superman being.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Case: Because, like, honestly, what I really would have liked is Clark and Peter being sent on assignment together as a reporter and photographer working together.

Case: Like, that would have been a really nice, like, crossover element there.

Case: And we don't quite get that you.

Jmike: Want them both to be dodging for the telephone booth at the same time.

Case: Well, they do that.

Adam: There's a bit of that, too.

Adam: But, yeah.

Adam: No, but, yeah, it's like, I want to see them be like, it's.

Adam: I think because.

Adam: Because we're not seeing the, like, prototypical.

Adam: Like, when I give someone a Superman story, like, this is what you want to see, which is, you know, a him being news reporter, it feels off.

Adam: You know, again, I understand, like, that's what was canon at the time.

Adam: That was what was happening at the time.

Adam: But it does feel like we're missing out on, like, the perfect version of this story.

Case: Right.

Case: And it feels like they want to be, like, the.

Case: The fact.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Case: That's exactly it.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: The Spider man thing at the end with, like, the.

Case: The camera, which is so, you know, like, this awkward 8 millimeter, like, not video camera, like, film camera.

Adam: Right.

Case: That he's filming, like, the news on.

Case: And the fact that he keeps disappearing and that Edge keeps on complaining about it, like, that feels like a Perry White complaint about Clark.

Case: Like.

Adam: Right.

Case: You know, that.

Case: That doesn't feel like a complaint about.

Case: I mean, it is a complaint that he had about his news anchorage always disappearing.

Case: Because that was one of the awkward things about Superman being a news anchor.

Case: Like, he's supposed to be on the news.

Case: Like, like, not report.

Case: Like, not being the person being reported on.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, it's.

Adam: Yeah, it's weird because it is very much like, there are so many points in, like, this.

Adam: This book.

Adam: I'm like, yeah, this feels 100% right as, like, a first meeting, but then you're like, but I didn't get the version that I wanted.

Case: Just a little bit.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Like, and, like.

Case: Because Like I said, like, it feels like they wrote it with that in mind.

Case: And then we're like, shit, he's a TV guy now, isn't he?

Adam: Damn it.

Case: Yeah, like we have to make that work.

Adam: But what's also interesting is like, because then you look at like some of the other crossovers in this book where you're just.

Adam: They have a bit more fun with it.

Adam: I've already mentioned, like the Batman Captain America version or there's a few other one, like the Superman Hulk version where they just kind of like accept that these are sort of like an alternate universe and you kind of feel like they kind of.

Adam: And I don't want to say they half ass because that's not the case, but like you kind of wish they're just like, well, if you're making an alternate version of these, like a, A shared universe that like that accepts that both these characters exist for a while.

Adam: Existed for a while in a shared universe, why not just go and just give the most like, idealized, perfect version of this?

Adam: Why take into account what is current canon in Superman and what is current canon in.

Adam: In Spider Man?

Adam: Just tell your best version of it.

Case: Yeah, because it would have been in Elseworlds or something like that.

Case: Like that's just not what they were doing in 1976.

Adam: Yeah, then the else world didn't exist yet.

Case: Yeah, like that concept didn't really exist because I agree with you.

Case: I mean like the nice part about like the Batman Superman crossover or not, but Batman, Captain America crossover is that they have a little bit of impact on each other's worlds.

Case: Like, like the fact that we're dealing with a World War II era Batman, you know, makes it sort of play into the dynamic of Captain America and the Nazis and all this stuff that's going on with that.

Case: Like, it feels like they have gravitational pull on each other, even though they've never met at the start of the story.

Case: Like it's in a world where they both can exist appropriately and it's divorced of the continuity of the period.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And that's something like.

Adam: And I don't think it's artfully said this before, but I think that's exactly what it is that I love about the best kind of crossovers.

Adam: That they feel like they have an impact on the narrative of each character.

Adam: Like that.

Adam: Like that it feels important for these two characters met.

Adam: Like, that's something I tried to do with the Sherlock Holmes Green Llama crossover.

Adam: It was very much like, how do I make sure that this story means something for both characters.

Adam: You know, like, how do I find a way to make sure that, like, their canons fit within each other and that when each of these characters leaves this story, they're impacted by the relationship they had, you know, that.

Adam: That, like the.

Adam: The Green Llama learns something from Sherlock Holmes, and Holmes learns something from the Green Llama.

Adam: So that way, like, their narrative tracks sort of, like, feel slightly different because of that meeting.

Adam: And to your point, that's evident in the.

Adam: The Batman Captain America crossover, you know, that because of the universe that they set up.

Adam: And I don't feel like that is something that we really see in this crossover with Superman and Spider man, which is not by design.

Adam: Which is by design.

Adam: You're not supposed to, like, be world changing at this point.

Adam: They're not thinking like that.

Adam: But yeah, it does kind of lower the impact and sort of the story where I'm at the end of it, I'm like, I just.

Adam: I wanted more.

Case: Yeah.

Case: You know, this feels like an issue that could just happen.

Case: You know, it's.

Case: It could be anyone's first issue, and it has no lasting consequences, but also no impact in a negative way either.

Case: It's just a.

Case: It's a nice little romp with these two characters, and it tells you some stuff about them.

Case: If you didn't know that much about Spider man, if you're a Superman fan or if you're a Spider man fan and you didn't know about Superman, there's something in here for you to know about the other guy.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: I mean, that's was my favorite thing about, like, the DC versus Superman amalgam universe.

Adam: Like, it was so small, but, like, the.

Adam: The Tim Drake Jubilee, like, romance.

Case: Right.

Adam: Like.

Adam: Like, I just really like that.

Adam: I like that, like, there's, like, lasting consequences to that crossover.

Adam: I like the idea that, like, it was now canonical that both universes were aware of the other and that, like, there was, like, in a period of time when, like, there was, like, the amount, like, the.

Adam: The Access crossover comics where they just sort of, like, cross over occasionally and, like, it was just accepted like this.

Adam: They now knew of each other well.

Case: And Access would pop up in particularly Green Lantern issues.

Case: So.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Sort of, like, set up that, like, oh, yeah, there is a shared universe or shared multiverse between them.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And I like it when this.

Adam: I mean, that's the thing that I think.

Adam: And this is just.

Adam: This is a larger conversation.

Adam: But, like, I do like it when the status quo changes by the end of A story, especially when it's a crossover.

Adam: And I think, like, that is not something, again, that they were doing.

Case: Yeah.

Case: On that note, why don't we actually get into the beat by beat?

Case: Because otherwise.

Adam: Absolutely not.

Case: Now for you mean case.

Case: Well, I.

Case: I think that we can move through some of these pretty quickly because, like, one thing that I find interesting about this whole story is that it is set up with.

Case: With multiple prologues.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And chapters.

Case: And I was very appreciative of that of.

Case: Of the structure for it.

Case: As someone currently writing a comic book, it is fun to like, sort of take in like the.

Case: The art form of.

Case: The structure of.

Case: Of a comic.

Case: But.

Case: So we open with a Superman one where.

Case: Where he encounters a giant robot, which I may have some thoughts about Superman versus giant robot.

Case: But it's a classic situation, Superman versus giant robots.

Case: And he keeps on being just like a little too dumb when he's talking about it.

Case: It's like, huh, I wonder who could.

Case: This guy or who could have created this robot who is talking to me and seems to know me.

Case: That's.

Case: That's so strange.

Case: It's.

Case: It's lead line.

Case: So it's like blocking my X ray vision.

Case: One thing I do like is that every step that the robot makes, its feet are glowing.

Case: And that's a nice detail to later establish that it is so heavy that it requires like anti gravity devices to allow it to move.

Case: And that's why it's able to like, even like, do.

Case: It's very creative what this comic does to deal with Superman.

Case: Stuff like Superman gets bounced around by like gravity stuff, by sonics, by Red sun lasers.

Case: Like, they.

Case: They have a lot of arsenal stuff to use.

Adam: I mean, I.

Adam: What I liked about the prologues in general is that I think as.

Adam: I think it's good for like, someone's like, hey, I've never read a Superman comic.

Adam: Here's who Superman is.

Adam: I've never had a Spider man comic here who Spider man is.

Adam: You know, I don't.

Adam: I think the first two prologues are kind of the strongest.

Adam: I do think that the Spider man is a little bit stronger in some ways only because to your point, like the fact that like, Sabrin goes back to like the.

Adam: The.

Adam: The news channel is like, wow, I didn't think about that.

Adam: I'm gonna go back out.

Adam: I'm like, okay, that's a little.

Adam: Come on, Superman, you're a little smarter than this.

Case: Yes.

Adam: But I do think it does.

Adam: It does.

Adam: The two prologues, the first two prologues of three Do a very good job giving audiences who might not be as familiar with either character a good understanding of who they are, what their power set is.

Adam: They're sort of generic cast of characters and sort of like, what makes them unique.

Adam: You know, you watch it and you like, you watch, you read it and you know that like, Superman is.

Adam: Oh, here all his powers.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Like, he can do all these amazing things.

Adam: And this is his main antagonist, Lex Luthor.

Adam: This is their relationship.

Adam: Spider Man.

Adam: Like.

Adam: Like here you don't really get his sense of, like, who his main.

Adam: You get a sense of whom one of his nemesis nemesai is.

Adam: You understand that, like, he isn't going to make the right, like the right choices all the time.

Adam: He'll make mistakes.

Adam: It's all like, you know, he's kind of down on his luck.

Adam: You get a good sense of who these characters are so that when you.

Adam: They do meet, you kind of.

Adam: You don't have to worry about, like, a lot of exposition.

Adam: It does a really good job of very succinctly explaining who these characters are.

Case: Yeah.

Case: And it relies on you, the reader knowing who they are more so than necessarily the characters knowing who each other are.

Case: In fact, later plot contrivances require them to not really know each other as well as we know them.

Case: Like, we're in on the fact that it's a tough situation.

Case: One thing I want to call out in the Superman one is Steve Lombard, who love me some Steve Lombard, tries to play a prank on Clark, and he uses his super breath in a way that I can only describe as telekinesis.

Case: To hold a bucket of water up in.

Jmike: You can't blow stream straight up in the air case.

Jmike: What do you mean?

Case: It's not even straight up.

Case: It's like a weird curl.

Adam: It is weird.

Adam: It's very weird.

Adam: Is it kind of goes like this.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Not that I'm saying it couldn't happen.

Case: It's just the way they draw it.

Case: It just.

Case: It just appears to be telekinesis at that point, which I just find kind of amusing.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: I also.

Adam: I.

Adam: I don't.

Adam: I didn't love the third prologue mostly because.

Adam: And this is sort of like an overarching problem.

Adam: I feel like Doc Ock in this storyline is very sidelined.

Adam: You know, I feel like I.

Adam: I don't at any.

Adam: Like, they get imprisoned for those who don't read the first two.

Adam: I haven't read this yet.

Adam: The two first two prologues have Superman basically fight a giant robot.

Adam: Get.

Adam: And he get wrestle Lex Luthor on the second one, Spider man fights Doc Ock.

Adam: He gets arrested.

Adam: Third prologue.

Adam: They're both at the same prison together, and basically Lex breaks them both out.

Case: Super succinct.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And I think that it's just.

Adam: It's the only time I'll ever be succinct in this entire podcast.

Adam: I think what's.

Adam: What's frustrating, though, is I think while they do a decent job in this overall comic of giving a reason why Superman and Spider man are teaming up, I don't think they do a great job of explaining why Lex and Doc are teaming up together.

Adam: I feel like Lex is kind of the alpha and the relationship.

Adam: Yeah, he is.

Adam: And Doc Ock is kind of there.

Adam: I always.

Adam: And this is not a great example, but what I kind of liked and I wish I would see more of in Batman Begins was this sort of like.

Adam: Or even.

Adam: Yeah, Batman Begins was like, if you're gonna have, like, the.

Adam: All these multiple characters, these multiple villains, like, having one work for the other or having a sort of a hierarchy, like where they had the Scarecrow working for Ra's al Ghul.

Adam: You know, I thought that was a really interesting.

Adam: Like, you could do something like that.

Case: Well, like, they had two relatively similar level villains and similar villains in concept, because they're both mad scientist villains.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: It's just that of the two of them, of course, Dr.

Case: Octopus is the heavy between them.

Case: Like, he.

Case: He makes the most sense to be like the dragon.

Case: And the.

Case: The.

Case: The actual Big Bad of the story is Lex Luthor.

Case: And that.

Case: And part of that is just because, like.

Case: All right, well, which one is going to be the smarter of the two?

Case: Well, because Lex Luthor's like, whole thing is that he's the smartest guy in the room.

Adam: Right.

Case: He's got to be the smarter of the two.

Case: And so, like, his escape is going to be his plan.

Case: And then, like, Luthor, like, Octopus is just there to be an assist.

Case: Like, it would make more sense if it was like, a villain like the rhino or something where, like.

Case: Or, you know, someone who would provide a physical, like Sandman would be a great use or, like, a great villain to see, like, pitted against Superman.

Adam: Or you could have had.

Adam: Sorry to interrupt you, Chris, but, like, I was gonna say, like.

Adam: Or you have, like, Lex be like, hey, like, I can, like, make sure that your arms work, and, like, I can, like, stop whatever field is stopping them from working, and then we can break out.

Case: Right.

Adam: You know, I feel like there could have been a bit more of a, like, an actual team.

Case: Yeah, like a shared.

Case: Like, them doing science together to break out.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Adam: And I don't think that's, like, you know, that is not something that I think was evident throughout this entire story.

Adam: I just feel.

Adam: And, like, that's kind of the thing where it's just like.

Adam: It does feel like Lex is leading too much.

Adam: I don't feel like Doc Ock is adding enough to both, like, the plots and just this, the narrative.

Adam: Overall, you're just kind of like.

Adam: I feel like he's just kind of.

Case: There up until he, you know, the.

Case: The end of the story.

Case: Like, he.

Case: He is just kind of there.

Case: And like I said, it kind of sucks because it's just that he's a similar type of villain to Lex Luthor, but on the Spider man scale.

Adam: Yeah.

Jmike: Yeah.

Jmike: They just feel like they just need a Spider man villain to be there in the first place.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Well, I'm just saying.

Jmike: Otherwise, it just doesn't work.

Adam: Well.

Adam: Yes.

Case: Yes.

Case: But I'm saying that, like, in terms of like.

Case: Like, well, what?

Case: It just kind of sucks that it can't be Doc Ock's master plan.

Case: And he could have been there if it was a different Superman villain, but they went with Lex Luthor, you know, for.

Case: Yeah, for, like, because.

Case: And they're both, like, perfectly fine villains.

Case: But I.

Case: I agree with you.

Case: Like, Doc Ock ends up being just kind of, you know, a hired gun for Lex Luthor and.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Which sucks because he should be a master manipulator himself.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Or it could have been like, Lex is like, hey, Doc, you've got, like, this technology that I really want to use.

Adam: Or you like, I.

Adam: I always.

Adam: One of my favorite crossover stories is the Batman versus Super Batman, Superman animated one where they, you know, they have the Joker and Lex sort of work together.

Adam: It is one of.

Adam: It's one of the best crossovers you can do.

Adam: I watch it kind of on the regular because it just.

Adam: It does a really good job of establishing both characters and establishing both villains.

Adam: And, like, why these two villains would work together where I don't.

Adam: Like, you could easily, like, you know, in that version.

Adam: Again, for folks who haven't.

Adam: I'm assuming you have seen that episode.

Adam: But, like, the idea that, you know, Joker has finds, like, this giant kryptonite thing and wants to sell it to Lex, you know, that just makes sense.

Adam: You know, it's like, where I think, like, wouldn't it be interesting if, like, Lex goes to Doc Ock?

Adam: Like, hey, you have this.

Adam: You stole this thing.

Adam: And it would be like you have it there in the prologue, like, hey, you stole this thing if I need it for my, this experiment I'm doing.

Adam: Or your arms have a certain aspect of technology that I really need for this.

Adam: I need your help.

Adam: Or like I would like to hire you.

Case: So I need a nuclear physicist.

Case: Like, like none other.

Case: Someone who can like handle this whole thing and who happens to have arms built into them that can deal with radioactive materials.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And I mean, part of the problem is to your point is that like this version of Lex is this sort of like maniacal super mastermind.

Adam: You know, he is not the businessman.

Adam: He's not, you know, he's very much a like super villain with a capital S, capital V.

Adam: Super villain.

Case: Yeah, very much so.

Case: Like to the point where his ultimate scheme in this all is a world ending threat as opposed to a world conquering threat.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Case: But one thing I want to call out before we move on from the prologues is that at the end of each prologue they have a who's who basically for the respective like main character of the story.

Case: So for Superman first and Spider man and then the two villains.

Case: And so I, I really appreciate that.

Case: That coming from the standpoint of if you were a fan of one and not the other, it's a really like the prologues, which are 36 goddamn pages of the story.

Case: Just to be clear, 36 pages of the story are the prologues.

Case: They do a fantastic job of setting up most of the drama and most of the characters and making sure you're very aware of all the things that are involved before anything comes together.

Case: Because the, like, once everything comes together, it moves very quick, very quickly.

Case: It's a long story.

Case: So it's still, there's still a lot.

Adam: It's.

Adam: It's a long story, but it's also a very thin story.

Adam: Like.

Adam: And I, and I don't say that as a, in a pejorative sense.

Adam: I think it's more of like when it was written.

Adam: But like you really like, it's a lot happens but nothing really happens.

Adam: I feel like there's a.

Adam: And we'll get to it later.

Adam: There's like a whole section where I'm just like, this could have been an email.

Case: Yeah, I just double checked.

Case: So it is 32 pages.

Case: So the prologue is more than a third.

Case: And then we get into the next section, which is that they are at this news conference and I'm just like scanning over the pages for any reference to where they happen to be.

Adam: It's in New York.

Adam: No, no, no.

Case: But if it's the Java Center.

Adam: Oh, yeah.

Adam: No, I forget the way to say.

Adam: But even then, it's like, the convention is kind of weird.

Adam: It's just like, I've never seen a news convention like that, and I've been to a couple.

Adam: Why is there, like, a giant, like, weapon in there?

Adam: I'm not exactly sure.

Case: Yeah, that.

Case: Like that Com Lab laser or whatever.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: Like, there's, like, some interesting moments where it's just, like, you know, it is very cool to see, like, Peter Parker save Lois Lane, you know, and, like, he's, like, a little young for me.

Case: Yeah, I really like that bit right there.

Adam: You know, like, again, like, there's some really classic moments that, like.

Adam: But it's.

Adam: And I don't want to, like, sound like I'm, like, just ragging on this, because I.

Adam: I really did enjoy this, but I think it's just interesting.

Adam: Something, like, from, like, an archaeological standpoint of, like, you could as, like, the very first crossover between these two.

Adam: These two characters and.

Adam: And.

Adam: And these two universes.

Adam: It's like, it's interesting to see, like, the moments that really shine.

Adam: You're like, all right, that's the shit we want to see.

Adam: And the stuff that doesn't really work.

Adam: You're like, you understand why it doesn't work.

Adam: It's like, again, seeing Peter Parker save Lois Lane and that moment of he's a little too young for me.

Adam: Even that moment of later on in the story where J.

Adam: Jonah Jameson is complaining with.

Adam: Was it Morgan Edge?

Case: Morgan Edge, Yeah.

Adam: Yeah, right.

Adam: And it's just like, yeah, this is the kind of stuff that we want to see.

Adam: It's like, obviously we want to see the big splash pages of them fighting, all that sort of stuff, but, like, it's these little.

Adam: These little moments of color that both make you.

Adam: Both remind you what is appealing about both of these characters and their respective universes and how much fun it is to see those two universes meet in ways that feel natural for those characters because, like, you know, it's the.

Adam: The way you do fans, it's like the fan service that, like, doesn't feel completely hollow, if that makes sense.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Case: Like, there's some really good moments in here that, like, that this is doing a really good job of providing all the.

Case: All the things that we want.

Case: You know, the.

Case: The fact of the matter is, like, we've got actually, like, some pretty good Lois Lane stuff.

Case: Like, Lois Lane is sneaking around trying to get some photos.

Case: Like, she's being a little sneaky, the way that a good Lois Lane scene should really involve her being.

Jmike: I guess she's.

Jmike: She's pissed off at Clark again, as.

Adam: Always, I.

Adam: I do need to.

Case: To call out a little bit of a.

Case: This is definitely a.

Case: A period in history moment here where MJ is catty to Lois.

Case: And the way it goes here is like, meet Ms.

Case: Lane.

Case: Miss.

Case: Oh, I guess you're not liberated.

Case: And, like, it's the whole, like, Ms.

Case: Miz thing.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Which I can barely hear.

Case: Like, I can pronounce it like, and.

Case: And make it in there.

Case: But, like, for the longest time, I didn't realize that, like, there was like.

Case: And pronunciation difference for it.

Case: And, like, it is a whole big thing about, like, women's liberation, which is all a big thing about the 60s and 70s, but, like, is just foreign to my brain.

Adam: Yeah, it's.

Adam: So as three dudes.

Adam: We are.

Adam: We're.

Adam: You know, we're.

Jmike: We're.

Adam: We.

Adam: We can talk about it in detail.

Case: It just like.

Case: Like I said, it just felt like it's like, oh, man.

Case: That's a conversation that just.

Case: We.

Case: We just don't have anymore.

Case: Just because, like, we don't.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: The conversation has moved on.

Case: Is what.

Case: What I mean.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah, absolutely.

Adam: And I just think it's.

Adam: I always think it's funny, like, when we just.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: It's like.

Adam: Yeah, it's so foreign.

Adam: It's also, like, it reminds me of in some degrees.

Adam: Like, there's, like, a Stephen King, the Dark Tower series where one of the characters from, like, this.

Adam: They have, like, time travel.

Adam: One of the characters from the 60s and one of the characters.

Adam: A bunch of other characters from, like, the 70s and 80s.

Adam: And there's, like.

Adam: There's a certain word that one character uses.

Adam: And like.

Adam: Well, no, you can't say that.

Adam: And she's like, well, that's.

Adam: That's what I am.

Adam: I don't understand why you.

Adam: She's a black woman, and she's just like, well, that's who I am.

Adam: And they're like, you don't say that anymore.

Adam: And I think it's always interesting when you have those sort of aspects, like the Miss Miz, where it's not even part of our.

Adam: We're having much bigger conversations at this point that it's like, we've completely forgotten about that.

Adam: That it was a big discussion back then.

Case: But I also find this one frustrating because Peter calls her Ms.

Case: Lane, and then MJ's Catty about her being called Ms.

Case: Lane, but at no point does she introduce herself as miss or miss Right.

Case: So it's like it's a man writing two women being catty over something a man said.

Case: Like, Like, Lois is the victim of MJ's anger, even though it was Peter who did this.

Case: Did the thing just there, like.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And so it's just like kind of like an interesting moment of like, oh, that's just some catty behavior between two characters.

Case: But I kind of appreciate the fact that they do, you know, spar with each other a little bit.

Case: Like, both of them should be kind of feisty.

Case: So I appreciate that.

Adam: So, yeah, I'm actually, like, really, like, now because we're just bringing this up.

Adam: I'm like, I forgot all about this.

Adam: So Miss Unmarried woman or girl.

Adam: And then woman of any marital status is Ms.

Adam: Okay.

Adam: Huh?

Case: That's why it's Ms.

Case: Marvel and not Ms.

Case: Marvel.

Case: And I got a lot of flack when I made my video on Ms.

Case: Marvel.

Case: And I definitely said Ms.

Case: Marvel most of the times.

Adam: I did not realize.

Adam: I mean.

Adam: Yeah, because again, like, it is such a.

Adam: Again, as.

Adam: As three men.

Adam: We are experts on this conversation.

Jmike: We know so much.

Adam: We know so much about it.

Adam: Just.

Case: Yep.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Well, right after that, we do have a scene that we can actually speak a lot about because a fake Superman teleports away Lois and mj.

Adam: Would you like.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: Not my favorite.

Case: The.

Case: The need for that plot contrivance.

Case: Like, I understand that Lois Lane is Superman's girlfriend, and everyone knows that.

Case: And that's the thing that pop culture knows.

Case: So it's really good scene to sort of evoke.

Case: If you are writing a Superman thing and you don't know, or rather, you just need to, like, do a generic Superman plot.

Case: Like, that makes a lot of sense right there.

Case: MJ being involved to get Spider Man.

Case: Like, that makes more sense of Dr.

Case: Octopus.

Case: Like, if this is like the later Dr.

Case: Octopus, who would, like, know Peter Parker's identity and so forth?

Case: Like the post superior Spider man situation.

Case: But this is not like, there.

Case: The MJ just happens to be a bystander in this one that happens to get Spider man riled up.

Adam: Well, but it's.

Adam: It's an interesting black contrivance, but it's.

Adam: I mean, again, it's of the era if, like Grant Morrison.

Adam: It's so much better in, like, All Star Superman when, like, you know, having that loot, that Lex who is doing, like, these sort of, like, cosmic pranks.

Adam: I think Morrison Did a better job of it than some of these stories did.

Adam: Because it.

Adam: It does.

Adam: It's very silly.

Adam: It's so silly.

Adam: He's like, I'm gonna dress up as Superman.

Adam: And, like, so that way I can have these two heroes fight.

Adam: It's like.

Adam: Or you could have just kidnapped.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Also, he dresses regular.

Case: This is a world with Superman robots.

Case: Like, Lex, you got into a costume with, like, a mask.

Case: Like, that made sense.

Case: Like, thank God you're in good enough shape to pull it off.

Adam: Right.

Adam: I mean, it's.

Adam: It just.

Adam: It, like, as plot contrivances go, it is not my favorite.

Adam: It's also sort of like.

Adam: Like, we're all just gonna accept that, like, Superman has, like, a new power that, like, has, like, laser transport eye thing.

Adam: I don't know.

Jmike: Teleportation beam.

Adam: Teleportation eyes.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Like.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And it just, like, you know, there's a lot of elements in this where I'm.

Adam: I don't want to say I'm grinning and burying it.

Adam: I'm.

Adam: I'm just being like, yep, this.

Adam: This fits for the time.

Adam: Because, like, the next thing that happens is, like, so Spider man, you know, goes to try to find out what's happened to Mary Jane and Lois, and, like, he has to fight Superman.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Well, for.

Case: After he asked Clark Kent where the phone booths are so he can change.

Case: And then we get.

Jmike: Yeah.

Case: No longer looking like phone booths, which is the same joke that they made in the original Superman movie.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Again, it's.

Adam: It's.

Case: It.

Adam: That's a good beat.

Adam: And I think that's a.

Adam: Like, That's a fun little.

Adam: A little moment like that, again, that I think is, like, the best.

Adam: One of the best moments of the crossover.

Adam: It's like.

Adam: It's weird.

Adam: I feel like a lot of the stuff that I really like are, like, the smaller moments, less the sort of, like, the sort of plot contrivances.

Adam: Crop contrivances.

Adam: I swear to God I speak English.

Adam: Like, of seeing them fight, like.

Adam: Or, like, having, like, bringing them together.

Adam: Because the next thing that happens is, you know, from, like, somewhere off screen that, like, Spider man can't seem like he gets shot with a, like, red sun beam.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: So like, to, like.

Adam: And it's like, that way, like, they can give it a reason to, like, how they can fight.

Adam: And he's, like, not breaking his fists the entire time.

Adam: Like, okay, fine.

Adam: Like, I'll accept it because that's, like, this is what the kind of stories that were being told in the 70s, but it's like there's a part of me where I'm just like, there has to have been a better way to have them fight because it just makes Lex and Doc Ock feel like merry pranksters.

Adam: Which again is kind of like that's, these are the stories that they were writing back then.

Adam: I'm not, it's, I, I, I, I, I don't want to sound like I'm complaining.

Case: No, because it, because this is a historic piece like that.

Case: I, I get what you're coming from.

Case: Where, yeah, like it, does it hold up that well?

Case: No, not necessarily.

Case: Is it still like a testament to like, is it a 92 page epic of Superman and Spider man meeting each other for the first time?

Case: Yeah, it still is like, it's still like, and it's still an impressive work.

Case: Like, there's a lot of elements going on that are really cool, but it's just also like extremely dated.

Case: Like it's 1976.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: And I think that's like the thing like this is one of those, it's so interesting because it is such a, to your point, it's historical, it's of its time.

Adam: And that's not necessarily a negative thing.

Adam: It's fascinating to read because you're like, oh, wow, this is how they wrote things.

Adam: This is what they thought worked back then.

Adam: But it is in some ways slightly disappointing because you and I mean, look, I don't know, like, we, maybe we.

Adam: There's a bit of bias because of we.

Adam: It was so integral to us when were growing up, the JLA Avengers.

Adam: And it being it that feels so perfect in a way, like for me, like again, I can't speak to you guys but like when I look at like when I think of like the best DC versus Marvel crossovers, JLA Avengers, as I've already said stated multiple times, feels like the perfect version of it because in some ways that four issue, those four issues just left everything on the table where they just like Busiak and Perez basically were like, what if we did just every single kind of crossover we could.

Adam: So that way it becomes kind of timeless.

Adam: That like, it gives every single bit of fan service you could ever want.

Adam: They were able to play with the different sort of time periods, like playing like, you know, they would have like all the different Captain America shields, they would have like all the different costumes of Green Lantern because they were playing with time and things like that.

Adam: So in some ways, again, I, I have to, I would have to revisit.

Adam: But I don't want to like, I'm afraid of like touching my comics as I don't want them to break because I want to.

Adam: Like it's.

Adam: Those are so hard to find.

Adam: It just feels timeless.

Adam: Like it feels timeless in a way that like no.

Adam: Very few of crossovers do.

Adam: This one just does not feel timeless.

Adam: And that's kind of in.

Adam: That's.

Adam: Which is so frustrating.

Adam: Again, we've kind of talked about it before where it's just like I.

Adam: They wanted it to be.

Adam: You could tell they wanted this to be like the moment this is the.

Adam: As big as it could.

Adam: But it doesn't.

Adam: Doesn't hit that.

Case: I mean because we get some really nice like the first encounter with them is a two page spread that exactly.

Case: You know, is stunning.

Case: Like, like the art is absolutely gorgeous.

Case: Yeah, the art is very good regardless of.

Case: Of which hands were touching it.

Case: Like I think that the collective project is.

Case: Is really good.

Case: And, and we have an interesting fight between the two of them.

Case: The conceit of the red solar radiation being.

Case: You know, again Lex and AK are just like Mary Pranksters, like creating the situation where if they could easily create or give someone the power to could damage Superman so easily.

Case: Like you would think super.

Jmike: Why not give it to them?

Case: Yeah, exactly.

Case: Especially much more consistently.

Case: But, but it is a conceit for why Spider Man's hits matter to Superman.

Case: Superman has no problem.

Case: Or rather Superman still has a situation of like if he hits super, if he hits Spider man, he'll kill him.

Case: And so like he doesn't.

Case: And they point out that the column of wind from his punch is sufficient to send Spider man flying, which was fun and has like Spider man flying through like an art gallery.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And then like the, the.

Adam: The interaction where like Spider man still thinks he's got all the strength.

Adam: He's trying to punch him.

Adam: Like that one page where he's like punching him in the stomach is really charming.

Adam: And it's like that's the.

Adam: I want like that's like that feels both like so true to both characters where like Superman's like I'm not gonna try to like I'm not gonna do anything.

Adam: I'm just gonna stand here and Spider Man's like I'm gonna keep on doing this because I'm a college kid, you know.

Adam: And it's just, it just feels of their characters.

Adam: But like.

Adam: So it's weird.

Adam: It's like again like I, I not to belabor the point.

Adam: But there's so many points in the story where like that, like one page of Spider man was trying to punch Superman.

Adam: Like, this is iconic.

Adam: Like there's that double page spread of them.

Adam: Like when heroes clash, it's iconic.

Adam: But then you're just like, oh, it's just.

Adam: It just doesn't.

Adam: Something's off.

Adam: And.

Case: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's.

Case: It's.

Case: Again, some of it just feels like a little dated in some areas and.

Case: Yeah, just it's.

Case: And just some areas are like, it just.

Case: Comics have changed in a lot of ways and it's, you know, and it's not the cutting edge 60s comics that, you know, like going back to a Lee Kirby book, like, has a lot of like, energy and pizzazz because they were also like cutting edge at the time.

Case: This wasn't cutting edge.

Case: Aside from the fact that it was a crossover between them, this was.

Case: This is very much of the time.

Case: So we move on to then the team up portion of this.

Case: Because once Spider man has worn off his powers, it's.

Case: He's no longer has a chance against Superman.

Case: And so Superman can be like, hey, why don't we not do this, man?

Case: Spider Man's like, I just broke my hands.

Case: We get a very cute scene of Spider man riding on skis made of.

Adam: Webster, which I don't understand.

Adam: Can anyone explain to me what's going on?

Case: So Spider man has a long history, but it sort of stopped in the 90s of using webs to make props.

Case: And this goes back to his earliest appearances.

Case: His first issue, he like makes a baseball bat out of webbing to hit balls of fire that.

Case: That the Human Torch throws at him.

Case: So him creating web props has always been a big thing, but in the 90s, it sort of became like, aren't.

Case: Isn't this more like gooey, spongy, like the Todd McFarlane era of webbing kind of ended him making like hard constructs out of his webs.

Case: This was still an era where he was making web like web skis and so forth.

Case: They find the next base and they go in and Spider man does this whole like, sneaking bit.

Case: And then Superman just like barges in.

Case: Either way, it's a decoy.

Case: It's a trap.

Case: It's a trap.

Case: Lex Luthor and Dr.

Case: Octopus are appearing by way of hologram that Superman can't tell when he sees them.

Adam: Yeah, right.

Adam: That like you would think, like he can like has super hearing.

Adam: He could tell they're not breathing.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Yeah, anything.

Case: Like, I mean, also, I mean, like, how good a hologram is that?

Case: Like, that is projecting, like, bones for him to see, like, when he's using his condition.

Case: I don't know.

Adam: Yeah, there's a lot of plot contrivances in this story.

Case: And also, I mean, like, some of these are contrivances of, like, eating page count plot contrivances, like, where it's just like, oh, all we needed, like, because them being a hologram isn't like, that big a deal.

Case: It's just we needed to add the extra, like, three panels of them being like, oh, man, they're a hologram.

Case: right.

Case: And then they blow up.

Case: Or Spider man goes to access their computer and it blows up.

Case: This actually gave me a moment of being like, man, this is how in D and D, there's, like, a new bard that can share evasion with people.

Case: It's the dance bard.

Case: And like, Superman blowing Spider man away from an explosion is exactly how, like, you would share evasion with someone.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And then we go to Africa.

Case: Well, but right before that, Superman rebuilds the computer at super speed and they're able to pull all the data off of it down to the circuit, which I call.

Jmike: What do you mean, case?

Jmike: It's.

Jmike: Superman could do it.

Jmike: Yeah, he said it before, I do.

Case: Like that Spider man says that he'd be great at bar mitzvahs.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: That feels like a very New York thing to say.

Case: But, yeah.

Case: They find that the coordinates are going to take them to Africa.

Case: And in fact, I find this impressive, which is that Spider man knows off the top of his head it's Africa, and Superman knows off the top of his head that's Mount Kilimanjaro.

Case: And I like both of those details because that is something that I believe that Spider man, that Peter Parker specifically would know.

Case: Know those coordinates well enough to be like, roughly where in the world that is.

Case: And I believe that Superman would know specifically.

Case: And I like both of those details.

Case: I think that's great.

Case: Then they go to Africa.

Case: And I was holding off on us, like, trying to talk about this because.

Case: Fuck, man.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: I mean, not the best of choices.

Case: It's not the worst choices.

Case: This could have been worse.

Case: This.

Case: They.

Adam: No, no, it really could have been.

Adam: And I.

Adam: I mean, I was like.

Case: It'S bad, but it's bad.

Adam: There's a moment of like, oh, no.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: For trying.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: But it's also, like, setting aside the fact that, like, I don't understand why they're going to Africa, it feels Like a stretch.

Adam: Well, just in jet in general.

Adam: And so like, I'm like, oh no, why are we here?

Adam: This can't be good.

Adam: And then like the first like couple of pounds, like, oh no, this is bad.

Adam: This is very bad.

Adam: And then they have one character is like, I went to college.

Adam: Like, oh, thank God.

Adam: And then.

Adam: But then it's this.

Adam: And then it kind of.

Adam: But it never.

Adam: At no point does the Africa side quest have really feel like it needs to happen.

Adam: Like, I would have preferred like for them to go to Metropolis and have like Spider man and Metropolis.

Adam: You know, I want to see that mixing and matching, you know, like, that's kind of like, I think go to.

Case: The, like the classic base of Lex luthor from the 60s where it's like the Metropolis Museum base.

Case: Like.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

Case: Also, I, I am suspicious that this book was at the very least heavily edited after it was drawn.

Case: And we know that the draw were heavily edited.

Case: So it wouldn't be surprising if the words spoken were heavily edited, if not outright Marvel method.

Case: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this is outright Marvel method.

Case: But I, I am certainly convinced that there's a lot of stuff that were like things that they inserted or put in spots because you could very well see that scene was written in a totally different way.

Case: And then someone was like, hey, this is kind of up.

Case: How do we make this not as fucked up and rewrote?

Case: It is entirely a possibility.

Case: And more importantly, two pages later when they fight the super powerful African.

Adam: Which I again feels like, why?

Case: But oh yeah, who has legitimately been made super powerful enough that Superman has a hard time fighting him and has a red sun sword which apparently can cut Superman's hair.

Case: And like, if that tech is so available to Lex Luthor, I am surprised that he has had this kind of issue.

Case: But, but the big thing I want to point out to you, it's 89 of the omnibus and it's 71 of the story.

Case: Second page of.

Case: Or the second full page of the fight, top left, there is a, a very large text blurb that I can only infer was put in there after the fact when they were like, how do we make this make any kind of sense?

Case: Because it goes.

Case: I believe I can change the chemical balance in your web with a dose of heat vision.

Case: Superman says it's a slim chance, but.

Case: And like, then it just jumps into the panel.

Case: It's like a whole panel was missing and they had to like put the Scene in.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, there's.

Adam: Yeah, possibly.

Adam: I don't know.

Adam: I.

Adam: I mean, maybe.

Adam: I mean, because you also look at the panel beforehand, it's like, there's the beginning of the dialogue.

Case: Yeah.

Case: I'm.

Case: I'm just saying that, like, at the very least, when they were writing out the dialogue, they realized that they were, like, crunched for space.

Case: Right.

Case: That's the very least that would happen if.

Case: If they weren't fully doing a Marvel method writing approach to it.

Case: Which is possible because, again, this feels like a very Marvel issue.

Case: Like, the exclamations like, Spider Man's character in general is very prone to those kind of Marvel kind of dialogue.

Case: Like, I would say, in general, it has, like, a very Marvel vibe.

Case: But we move on to the next story.

Case: And.

Case: Yeah, again, I agree with you.

Case: If this had been like Lex Luthor's classic base in Metropolis or, you know, it feels so much cooler because why do we go to Africa when the whole conceit is just that they go to a base that is now gone?

Adam: Right.

Case: And it's actually they've gone now.

Case: Luther and Dr.

Case: Octopus have gone to the Injustice Gang's headquarters, satellite headquarters, which, adding one, couldn't help but think about Venture brothers the whole time that they were on this.

Case: Because I was thinking about all this.

Case: So starting there.

Case: But.

Case: But back to your point about Lex Luthor feeling like the alpha villain in this whole situation.

Case: Like, he takes Dr.

Case: Octopus to the Injustice Gang satellite headquarters.

Case: That is not a scale that Octopus normally, like, operates in.

Case: Like, Lex Luthor is the big cosmic villain in this scenario.

Case: I mean, yeah, sure, he's a mad scientist human, but he's like Superman's mad scientist villain.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And Doc Ock is just sort of along for the ride as, like, someone who's like, yeah, I get what's going on.

Case: I think.

Adam: It'S weird.

Adam: It's like, it just doesn't.

Adam: It doesn't justify why Doc Ocks in this story.

Adam: You know, I think that's the biggest thing.

Adam: It's just like, there are many elements in this story where you're like, yeah, that feels like.

Adam: Again, I.

Adam: Now I'm definitely belaboring the point.

Adam: I'm like, this is why this is here.

Adam: There are definitely points where, like, great, I'm so glad this moment happened.

Adam: But, like, there are there.

Adam: Because there's many movies and there's many books, mostly in comics that I've read, where, like, you're like, this moment just almost justifies why this movie or story was being told.

Adam: But the narrative work around it doesn't necessarily.

Adam: Like, it doesn't kind of make sense.

Adam: Like, a controversial opinion I have is like, I think the last third of Rogue One, the Star wars from Rogue One is just great movie making.

Adam: I think the first two thirds kind of like, doesn't necessarily work as well.

Adam: Like, the last third makes you, like, the moment she's like, they go to Yavin 4 and like, everything happens.

Adam: You're like, wow, this is great.

Adam: But the story beforehand doesn't really make sense to that point.

Adam: Like you just.

Adam: Yeah, and that's kind of a lot of moments like here where, like, there are many points where I'm just like, you know, wow, this is so cool.

Adam: But, like, there's no reason Doc Ock is in here.

Adam: Like, there's no reason they're going to the Injustice Gang.

Adam: There's no reason they're going to like, the, To Africa.

Adam: Like, it just like.

Adam: But then like, there's like a moment, a beat like, you know, him punching him in the stomach that we already mentioned.

Adam: Like, things like that where like, this is why I came.

Adam: It just, it feels like this is a collection of really great moments that is begging for a better story.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Especially begging for a more active Dr.

Case: Octopus.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And I liked your idea of like, just having the thing that Octopus stole at the beginning be relevant to the thing that Luther stole at the beginning.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And just combine their stuff.

Case: But, but unfortunately that continues to be the problem throughout this whole thing where, like, Luther is showing off his cool science gadgets to his new friend.

Case: And like, that's sort of.

Case: That's sort of all that's happening here.

Case: But we do get the interlude of J.J.

Case: jameson and Morgan Edge getting drinks together.

Case: And I do very much appreciate the scene with them together, especially Jameson requesting a large one and no water with his drink and not being explicit for it.

Case: But like, oh, yeah, okay, we're.

Case: We're getting a wiki.

Adam: Yep.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: It's like, again, that's one of those moments where you're just like, I, I.

Adam: Okay, again, this is gonna sound like faint praise.

Adam: Like, it's such a good moment where you're like, this is why I want these two universes touch.

Adam: But you're also like, I kind of wish this was Perry White.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Because he's so much more classic than Morgan Edge.

Case: Like, who gives a shit?

Case: Like, yeah.

Case: And at the time, sure, they didn't know that Morgan Edge was going to be, you know, a flash in the pan boss for Superman.

Case: But.

Case: But, yeah, it does feel like we're stuck in the situation where it would have been so much cooler if it was the classics and not the.

Case: Of the moments.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And again, I think it's just, like, if I could go back in time, there's a lot of things I would fix a lot.

Adam: I mean, just look at the world right now.

Adam: But I would love to just, like, sit down with, like, Stan Lee and Carmen Infantado.

Adam: It's Carmine Infantino and Jerry, and everyone be like, listen, just make the most classic version of both of these characters.

Adam: Like, do Perry White.

Adam: Have him be at the Daily Planet.

Adam: Just, like, tell, like, remember the core appeal of these two characters and merge those two versions and then go from there.

Adam: Because, again, like, when you look this omnibus, you'll see those.

Adam: You know, that's the thing about the X Men.

Adam: Like the X Men, Teen Titans one.

Adam: Just skimming through it, you're like, these are the iconic versions of all of these.

Case: Well, sort of.

Case: It happened to be when those.

Case: That was, like, perfect timing for what are the iconic versions of those teams?

Adam: You.

Adam: You were correct.

Adam: I'm wrong.

Adam: That's.

Adam: But that's a good point.

Adam: But then, like, you.

Adam: Again, like, the Superman Hulk story.

Case: Yeah, the Superman Hulk one is a great example because it's a.

Case: A flashback specifically to when they wanted to do the respective, like, snapshots of the characters.

Case: So they.

Case: They could have done something similar here where Superman is still working for Morgan Edge, but thinks back to a news conference where he met Spider man or something like that.

Adam: Right.

Case: It's like, hey, remember a couple years ago when you met Spider.

Adam: Are you referring to the.

Adam: Yeah, we're talking about the.

Adam: The Superman Hulk one from, like, who is it?

Adam: Because I know, like, in the second Spider man crossover, Superman Hulk's in here.

Case: It's.

Case: Because it's set right after man of steel 3.

Case: It's like.

Case: It's like Lex Luthor still has hair at the.

Case: At the end of it.

Case: And it's like, right after Avengers issue 2 or something like that.

Case: Yeah, it's Roger Stern and Steve Rude.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam: We're thinking of the same version.

Adam: Yeah, I just.

Adam: I like that because it's just like, it feels like, again, they.

Adam: They kind of boil it down to, like, the most.

Adam: Or, like, iconic.

Adam: Iconic.

Adam: Like, not the most iconic, but, like, definitely iconic versions of these characters so that when, like, they do meet up, you're like, yeah, Like, I look at this, and I'm like, yeah, this is.

Adam: This is right.

Adam: This is exactly how they should look and feel.

Adam: I also think about, like, the Superman versus War of the Worlds crossover, which is not really a crossover, but it's a crossover.

Adam: Like the fact that it's like kind of a Fleischer version.

Adam: It's kind of like a 30s version of Superman.

Adam: Like, those are some of the.

Case: Yeah, that one's a fantastic crossover.

Case: I, yeah, because that one's set in 1938, which is both when the broadcast occurred and the first appearance of Superman.

Case: So a, it's like Superman as he first appeared and then the radio broadcast specific version of War of the Worlds.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: And like, and that's kind of what I wish this was.

Adam: Like, like, again, I, I, I, I don't want to say, like, they were wrong for telling this version of the story because it's so of the time.

Adam: But I think to make it more timeless, it could have been like, just, you know, like, it's, you know, you just.

Adam: Anyway, I know I've said it multiple times.

Case: Well, anyway, so we're still dealing with the fact that we've got a Lex Luthor plot going on here that Dr.

Case: Octopus is not really that involved in.

Case: So we go from the interlude with Edge and Jameson having drinks to them watching the comm satellite going off and then Luthor hijacks it.

Case: And one thing I find actually kind of fun is that Superman and Spider man are flying to deal with the satellite situation.

Case: Spider man in a little rocket ship.

Case: And he thinks back how MJ and Ms.

Case: Lane fit in.

Case: So he's learned his lesson.

Adam: Yeah, he has.

Adam: He has.

Case: Anyway, so moving on, they take out Superman and Spider man using apparently ultrasonics in a laser, which we could get into how the science could work on that one.

Case: I like, I, you know laser microphones, like, where you shoot the laser at, like, glass and it, like, picks up the vibrations.

Adam: I feel like I know what you're talking about.

Adam: I'm going to pretend I understand.

Case: Like, the basic idea is that you shine a laser beam at a surface of glass.

Case: And like the, my, like, my only actual experience with them is in the video game Splinter Cell and in my.

Case: And Saw ads for them all the time at like, the back of like, the Boy Scout magazines and stuff when I was a K.

Case: But it's like the laser picks up the vibrations and so it, okay.

Case: And so you have to have it like a line of sight beam from the laser to the glass pane.

Case: And it's just whatever vibrations are Going up against that.

Case: But then that can be interpreted as sound.

Case: Kind of the same principle, but using light instead of a string for like a can on a string.

Case: So that.

Case: That's how that works as the idea.

Case: So I could argue that maybe the laser hitting Superman hit him in such a way that the.

Case: The atmosphere around his body or his body itself struck by the laser in such a way that ultrasonics him up.

Case: But if so, why doesn't Lex Luthor do this to Superman all the goddamn time?

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: I mean, like again, like.

Adam: Yeah, it's.

Adam: I know.

Adam: Again.

Adam: I feel like what's so interesting about this book is you kind of just.

Case: Have to turn your brain.

Case: Why they're alive in the next panel is like, especially Spider Man.

Case: Like Spider man should just be dead.

Case: Yeah, like they brought him in from space.

Adam: There was an interview I did once with the creator of Quantum Leap.

Adam: You could see it's on Arsectica's YouTube channel.

Adam: I asked him about like, if Al would be dead in the Quantum Leap like sequel series.

Adam: This is before the sequel series was created.

Adam: And that the creators like, no owl wouldn't be dead.

Adam: It's television.

Adam: And I'm like, that's kind of what I think about when I read this, where it's just like, why is this happening?

Adam: And the answer is because it's comic books.

Adam: I mean, and like, you know, and like it's.

Adam: There's a bit of like, there's a mix of.

Adam: I kind of wish I had.

Adam: I don't want to say like the.

Adam: I don't want to say it, but I think it's.

Adam: It's the right word, like the naivete to sort of read these books like an 8 year old or even a 12 year old and being like this shit just happens.

Adam: Because it just happens.

Adam: There is a real appeal to that.

Adam: And I feel like.

Adam: I don't want to say I'm jaded, but I do feel like, you know, as I become more literate and more well read, you know, especially whether it be comic books or just in general, you know, I'm looking for more from my stories.

Adam: And I don't want to say like what they did in this story again was bad because again, it was of the time and how comics were written.

Adam: So it's like it's this weird sort of mix of like sitting there and being like, yep, no, this is how it worked back then.

Adam: This is okay, this is how it worked back then.

Adam: But also want it to better.

Adam: You know, I wanted to.

Adam: I Wanted to be it to make sense within its.

Adam: Like, you know, I want, like, from panel to panel, the narrative to sort of work.

Adam: And I don't really think those are, like, I don't think, though, those are two separate things.

Adam: I feel like you can tell a story and there are many examples of this, none of which I can think of at the moment, but I'm sure Casey and Jim, like, you guys probably have better examples of this where, like, you look at the 60s stories or you look at the, like, any.

Adam: Any good Superman story, any good comic story where like.

Adam: Like, even if, like, it's.

Adam: The logic to us is absurd, the internal logic of the story makes sense.

Adam: You know, everything flows from A to B to C.

Adam: And, like, where you're like, yeah, like, sure, like, Superman's a fish in this.

Adam: But, like, the rules of this universe have been set up in such a way that it makes sense for him to become a fish.

Adam: And, like, everything flows from, like, from that main conceit.

Adam: And I do feel like this story specifically doesn't maintain a complete internal logic.

Adam: And so, like, it just always feels just slightly off.

Adam: And I don't know why.

Case: I think it's getting back to this whole.

Case: It's coming from, like, a Marvel approach to storytelling in terms of what they're.

Case: What they pit against.

Case: Like, it's a Marvel approach to storytelling using the props of the DC Universe.

Case: Like, okay, they get to use the.

Case: The Injustice Gang satellite.

Case: They get to use, like, all these, like, super science things that Lex Luthor has access to.

Case: But it's fundamentally a Spider man story.

Case: Like, Spider man teaming up with a much more powerful superhero and dealing with a much bigger world.

Case: And, like, all of the contrivances are, like, things that would work fine on a Spider man situation.

Case: Like, like, Dr.

Case: Octopus not killing Spider man, just a gloat.

Case: Like, makes enough sense against, like, Spider man, like, because you can theoretically have the upper hand against him, right?

Case: Like, it keeps on being like, well, why would you do that when your threat is Superman?

Case: Like, when you're dealing with Superman, you have to think around him.

Case: You have to think past him.

Case: Like, yeah, it's not that it's not coming up with, like, a weapon that works against him.

Case: It's coming up with a plot that Superman can't just, like, solve with the super speed and super strength, right?

Adam: But also, at that point, like, you already raised it earlier, like, why isn't.

Adam: Why is Spider man even alive if, like, he was, like, lasted?

Adam: And I think that's a thing where it's just like, you know.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Like, they're like, your point, Like, Doc Ock, why wouldn't he kill him?

Adam: But also, like, based on what this just happened, he should.

Adam: They should both be dead.

Adam: And why doesn't like, Lex ever do this before?

Adam: And why does it.

Adam: And what.

Adam: How does Spider man survive?

Adam: It's like, there's this again.

Adam: And there's an appeal to it of just like, just kind of go with it attitude.

Adam: Of like, look, it's just a comic book.

Adam: But at the same time, there are.

Case: She didn't have to go with it.

Case: Like, that's the thing.

Case: Like, yeah.

Case: Again, this is the first meeting of Superman and Spider Man.

Case: It's a huge foundational comic book.

Case: The fact that we have to just roll with it so often is a frustrating detail here.

Case: I mean, because, like, from there, we go into a stupid fight, like, where, right.

Case: Lex Luthor turns off the gravity.

Case: And so Superman and Spider man are disoriented enough that Dr.

Case: Octopus is able to, like, really do, like, a number on them in a fight.

Adam: It.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And it's like, there's two things that.

Adam: It's weird because it's like Spider man not having gravity, so his, like, webs don't work as well because there's no gravity.

Adam: That kind of makes sense, actually.

Adam: A good enough.

Adam: I'm like, oh, that's kind of good.

Adam: But, like, why the Superman give a shit, right?

Adam: You know?

Adam: You know like what?

Adam: Like, like flies, you know?

Adam: Yeah.

Case: I get him being disoriented for like, a second, but, like the whole scene, like, Lex Luthor is like, I have my jets, so I'm fine.

Case: But like, Superman's like, needs gravity just like everyone else.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: And I, I, you know, here's the, here's a, A better example.

Adam: Like, and I've already sort of mentioned.

Adam: I have mentioned this before, what I love about All Stars Superman is that Morrison took all the conceits of the, like, imaginary stories.

Adam: This, even this era of Superman were like, there's, you know, just super magic and super science and things that just, you know, are completely impossible in this universe.

Adam: But he was able to ground it all in, like, an emotional reality and made the internal logic of the world his Superman story was in feel real.

Adam: It's the one thing that I'm really excited about with, like, James Gunn's Superman film where it's like, he's leaning into that sort of Silver age feel, but hopefully making it all feel sort of, like, consistent within this universe.

Adam: I, I just don't think this story ever feels consistent with either character.

Adam: There are those moments, those beats, as we've talked about, where you're like, that Spider Man, That's Superman.

Adam: That's my.

Adam: Or, like, this is the interaction I've always wanted to see.

Adam: But I don't think we ever found a good balance that, like, made you feel like, yeah, these two characters can plausibly be in the same universe together in some ways, because they were just going.

Adam: They were just doing the.

Adam: Just go with it.

Adam: Like, it's.

Adam: Comics, have fun with it.

Adam: It kind of.

Adam: They lose sight of what would have made this sort of the gold standard.

Adam: You know, I think there are other ways of having Superman and Spider man, like, team up and feel sort of fundamental to these characters.

Adam: Whereas it feels like stuff happens because it's like.

Adam: It's like a kind of like a Harlequin novel where, like, by page, so and so this needs to happen.

Adam: And I feel like that's kind of like, okay, by page, like, 80 something.

Adam: Like, they need to have, like, these temporarily defeated, so gravity goes off.

Adam: You know, I think that's a lot.

Adam: I think, you know, one thing I think I've been working through in this conversation is trying to understand, like, what it is about this comic that doesn't feel right.

Adam: And I think I kind of feel like I've landed on it.

Adam: Where is so much of the story is by Paige xyz.

Adam: This needs to happen.

Adam: And while those moments, like, the fight or their first meeting or, like, these little.

Adam: Like these little, like, colors, these little moments feel really iconic and great, it feels like the.

Adam: They never really figured out how to make those.

Adam: I feel like they wrote the story around those beats.

Adam: They didn't write the stories to earn those beats, if that makes sense.

Case: I think that makes a ton of sense.

Case: I mean, this fight here is just like that, where it's, like, the fact that they're a little off because of everything that's happened to them at this point.

Case: Allowing for Doc Ock to, like, throw Superman around is.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Exclusively there.

Case: Because it's, like, fighting beat has to happen right now.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Yep.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: A funny scene at the.

Case: On page 84 of the actual story 102 of the omnibus, bottom right, Doc Ock loses his glasses and is incapacitated because of that.

Case: Lex Luthor gives them back to them, and it's like, oh, no, they're broken.

Case: Just a funny note there.

Case: And then on the opposite page to that, at one point, Superman asks, can you hold the fort alone?

Case: And Spider man responds, Does Warner Brothers make movies?

Case: And I, and I laughed because I thought sometimes they don't.

Case: Sometimes they don't.

Case: Sometimes they do.

Case: And then they bury them.

Adam: Hey, we're still, we're getting Coyote versus Acme somehow.

Adam: What a fucking miracle that is.

Case: But on that note, this is where Lex Luthor then decides to like reveal that he's actually destroying the planet and not trying to blackmail them.

Case: And so Dr.

Case: Octopus betrays Lex Luthor and Spider man takes them all down while Superman stops a tsunami that they have to specify is a super tidal wave.

Adam: Which is.

Adam: That was interesting, right?

Case: It's just one of those things where it's like a word that is like definitely just like entered the lexicon of us so much that we wouldn't even think about it.

Case: But it's like, oh yeah, in the 70s, they didn't know what that word meant.

Jmike: I have a time to change.

Case: Again, just the snapshot of when this all came from.

Case: So Superman flies across this like 200 mile long, 1 mile high tidal wave.

Case: And he flies fast enough that his shock wave like destroys it, which probably would do some damage to everything else.

Case: But okay, it's a comic, it's fine.

Case: And they fly off to well with the respective villains having stopped or save the day.

Case: And we get an epilogue where both Kent and Parker having done the exact same thing are told to take or to have dinner on their respective bosses without any evidence, I might add, where it's just like, oh, you're like.

Case: Jameson is very happy with Parker twice for not actually anything he's seen like, and so happy with him.

Case: And Edge is the exact same when it happens.

Case: So it's interesting.

Case: Yeah.

Case: So that is Superman versus the Amazing Spider Man.

Case: And yeah, I think we're kind of all in a similar stance of like it's a fun timepiece.

Case: It's a comic, it's important and it was good when it came out and like has a lot of the things that are really important and should be referenced.

Case: Like the COVID has been referenced a ton of times in comics.

Case: Like, oh yeah, I think there's a lot of really cool things going on with it.

Case: And like it was, we should also mention when it was originally published it was an oversized, like big.

Case: Yeah, you know, big print kind of thing.

Adam: It was a big, it was literally big.

Case: So it was.

Case: And it's a huge book.

Case: Again, it's 92 pages.

Case: Like that's a big ass comic.

Case: So this would have felt like a really worth your money kind of situation.

Case: When, like, when it was first published, just time has marched on in terms of storytelling, in terms of art, in terms of.

Case: I mean, just the.

Case: The approach to how you would handle continuity when doing a story like this.

Case: Yeah, it's just a very different era of comics making.

Case: So.

Case: Yeah, I mean, like, what.

Case: What are the things that kind of stood out to you besides the negatives?

Case: Like, what.

Case: What's the thing that.

Case: That you're going to take away that is a really big positive from.

Case: From reading the story?

Adam: I mean, like you said, I think it's a really good historical artifact.

Adam: I think it gives such a.

Adam: Gives us a sense of what works and what doesn't, what makes a good crossover.

Adam: I think the biggest things, like I took away from it's like, I just.

Adam: It's great seeing these two characters finally meet for the first time, but I.

Adam: What I.

Adam: So this is a long way of answering this one thing I love doing.

Adam: And I.

Adam: And is looking back at the sort of like the first stories on.

Adam: On some things.

Adam: Gonna have to be careful about how I phrase these.

Adam: So I'm working on this one property right now and I went back and read the very first story of this character and the license holder was like, don't read it.

Adam: It's terrible.

Adam: I'm like, yeah, it's terrible.

Adam: But it made me understand the core appeal.

Adam: The things that happen in this story have been true at every iteration of this character.

Adam: It tells me like, okay, like, this is what's been true.

Adam: There's another property I'm working on that I just finished reading a series of books also not very good, but they helped me understand the core appeal of this other character.

Adam: Because you sort of.

Adam: I go through it, I'm like, okay, this doesn't work.

Adam: This doesn't work.

Adam: Oh, there it is.

Adam: That.

Adam: It's literally like a line.

Adam: There's little elements.

Adam: I really want to read the Dragonlance series, the Dungeon and Dragons books, and a friend of mine in my role playing groups, like, don't read it.

Adam: Like, they're great.

Adam: Don't read it.

Adam: They just don't hold up.

Adam: And I'm like, no, but I have to, because I'll understand better what it is that made the stuff that came after work stand the test of time.

Adam: And I think that is what this book is for me, where it's like, there's a lot of things in this that we obviously did not love.

Adam: But I really enjoyed going back and seeing why it was so important at the time, seeing the things that really, like, maybe Understand the core appeal of these characters of a crossover like this.

Adam: So that way, like it makes me sort of look at jla, Avengers or even DC versus Marvel.

Adam: That, that whole crossover or Superman versus Hulk, the ones that came afterwards, it made me understand better why those worked better than this one.

Adam: You know, it's like while, like there's like again these panels, these Double page spreads, etc.

Adam: Etc.

Adam: Etc.

Adam: That I.

Adam: The COVID that we'll always look back on as these classic moments.

Adam: It helps me understand, like when I write a crossover or if I read a crossover, like, what is it going to be?

Adam: Some.

Adam: What is going to make it stand the test of time?

Adam: What is it going to make it a classic?

Adam: Not by saying like this one failed, but by understanding like, okay, this did it this way.

Adam: And then later on when they did these things they took what.

Adam: This is what worked originally.

Adam: This is what always works.

Adam: You know, it's the Lois.

Adam: Peter Parker saying the Lois.

Adam: It's like all those little tiny moments that like when we get the really classic crossovers, we're like, yeah, that's where it came from.

Case: Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Case: I mean, this is again such a pivotal work in terms of the larger pantheon of crossovers that would come from it.

Case: And you can see the like, you can see it in the DNA of a lot of later ones, but it is certainly.

Adam: A much more succinct way of saying it.

Case: Certainly nascent.

Case: J Mike, how about you?

Case: Anything that really stood out to you that you're going to carry with you?

Jmike: Adam said a lot, but the most important part, he said, was that this is a product of his time.

Jmike: It might not have been the best thing now, but we can still appreciate it for what it is.

Jmike: It was a great piece, great thing to get like, everyone excited, like, oh, snap.

Jmike: Superman versus Spider Man.

Jmike: It's finally happening.

Jmike: And you're like, cool.

Jmike: I did learn, Ms.

Jmike: And Mrs.

Jmike: The huge distinction between there.

Jmike: It's very important.

Jmike: We have to learn these things.

Jmike: We also forgot the giant bro fist handshake they did at the end.

Adam: Yeah.

Jmike: Like, yeah, we gotta do this again.

Jmike: And like, oh, it happened.

Jmike: Yeah.

Jmike: This is so cool.

Jmike: Yeah, it's a cool.

Jmike: It's a cool story.

Jmike: Also, we have to seriously question Lex Luthor's motives because he should not be losing as much as he does according to this book.

Adam: Yeah.

Jmike: Also I was hoping that was a purple ray.

Jmike: Just putting it out there.

Case: Wrong Property Man.

Case: That's a Wonder Woman thing.

Jmike: I was like, it's a purple ray.

Jmike: Come on.

Case: Oh, yeah, it's Wonder Woman.

Jmike: The red sun ray, purple ray.

Case: I was right.

Jmike: They could have used it like, oh, snap.

Jmike: They did the thing with the red sun ray and missed opportunities.

Case: Although that said, if they used the purple ray on Spider man and gave him the powers of Wonder Woman.

Case: Yeah.

Case: He'd be able to fight Superman, so that would have been kind of cool.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Case: There it is.

Adam: Also, it's kind of weird that there's like.

Adam: There's like.

Adam: Really.

Adam: No, I mean, she shows up in the second book, but, like, there's no, like, Wonder Woman crossovers that much.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: This is kind of.

Case: Again, like, she's had consistent publishing, she's had a lot of stuff, but she's just never been quite as big as Superman or Batman, you know.

Adam: Right.

Case: It's more of her historic status that.

Case: That really drives the character and has.

Case: She has, like, you know, very true fans.

Case: I don't want to, like, diminish that.

Case: It's just like.

Case: It's just nowhere near the size of Batman.

Adam: Right?

Adam: Yeah, but like, yeah, like, it's.

Adam: It's.

Adam: Yeah, it's just interesting.

Adam: I was just like.

Adam: I just kind of noticed that.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: So for me, my big takeaways on it, like, I.

Case: I enjoy the structure, even though I think it's like, overly.

Case: They meander for way too long before we actually get into the actual story again.

Case: 36 pages of 92 on the prologues.

Case: But I do actually enjoy the structure of those prologues and then the.

Case: The chapters and interludes.

Case: I do kind of miss those in some comics, especially big ones like this.

Case: Like, having that sort of natural, like, structure to it is rather nice.

Case: But one thing for me is that I have always remembered the Red Sun Rey element of the story.

Case: Like, that has always just stuck with me as being like, oh, yeah, Lex Luthor had that gun that like, gave Spider man, like, a red sun field and allowed him to, like, punch Superman.

Adam: A bunch of times.

Case: Like, that was pretty cool.

Case: And so, like, I've always remembered that.

Case: And like, it's been a way for me to sort of think about the.

Case: About the Bronze Age Superman's powers and like, how people responded to the character through the lens of a Marvel fan.

Case: So, like, it's.

Case: It's always been helpful for me thinking about, like, what that snapshot of the 70s Superman looked like as opposed to the classic one, because he got preserved in amber in the.

Case: In this story.

Case: Because it's going to be, you know, it's kind of like the way Dazzler is really Important in Marvel, but only because she first shows up in the Phoenix saga.

Case: Like, you know.

Case: You know.

Adam: Right.

Case: It's like she's.

Case: She's always going to have friends or always going to have fans because, like, she shows up in one of the most important stories of all time.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Is that a Captain Marvel up in the corner there?

Case: Yes.

Adam: Sorry.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Captain Marvel is arguably my favorite character of all time.

Case: I know.

Adam: I mean, I won't fight that.

Adam: He's a very important character to me because of.

Adam: My dad was a huge fan.

Adam: Let's see if I can't see it here, but there's a.

Adam: Before he passed away, he was.

Adam: We had an artist, Jamal Igel, draw illustration of my dad as Captain Marvel.

Adam: As, like, in the costume of Captain Marvel flying with Captain Marvel.

Case: For our audio listeners, we're talking about the Shazam.

Case: Captain Marvel.

Case: Most of you are not surprised to hear that part of it, but just for those who weren't.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, no, sorry.

Adam: Like, I wasn't sure you want to include that at all, but, like.

Adam: Yeah, no.

Adam: And, like, I was also thinking, like, there's no, like, Rila.

Adam: There's no Captain.

Adam: She's like him.

Case: I know, I know.

Case: That's.

Case: There's a whole crossover book of Shazam, Though, because, like, they.

Case: They have their own crossover status, even though they technically occupy the same universe.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: It's interesting and that those always are, like, interesting because it's like, there's an, like, one thing I liked about before he lost his mind, Zachary Levi, who, again, I have a very interesting relationship with because he was super nice to my mom and dad when I interviewed him.

Adam: And my dad was.

Adam: Was already beginning.

Adam: His dementia was starting to get pretty bad.

Adam: So, like, Zachary Levi going out and, like, saying really nice things and, like, sitting down, talking.

Adam: My dad, like, really great.

Adam: And then.

Adam: Yeah, well, here we are.

Adam: But what I liked about in the first Shazam film, that, like, he was a fan of Superman.

Adam: I thought that's kind of fun.

Adam: That's kind of like.

Adam: I think it gets a little tired after a while.

Adam: I feel like we see that a lot now.

Adam: It's just like, Shirazam's a fan of Superman, but I thought it was handled well in that film.

Adam: There's also that Superman vs Shazam Blu Ray that came out, like a decade ago more that I really enjoyed.

Adam: And it was based on.

Adam: Loosely based on the comic of the same name.

Adam: And I thought it did.

Adam: It handled their crossover really well.

Adam: Like, they were both fighting Black Adam.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: So, yeah.

Case: Fun Stuff.

Case: And it's always fun bringing those properties together and mashing them up, mashing the toys together.

Case: And, you know, we've looked at all kinds of versions of that before.

Case: Like, we've looked at the amalgam stories on this podcast before, but it's really fun for us to, like, yeah.

Case: Go back to the 70s and, like, be like, yeah, this was like, this is standing Carmine putting this bad boy out.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: And it's a lot of fun.

Adam: It is.

Case: It is a lot of fun.

Case: That happens to flow because it just happens to flow.

Case: Don't think about it.

Case: But.

Case: But there is fun.

Case: I know we've been kind of pooping on it, but it's.

Adam: It's.

Adam: It's weird because it's like, I.

Adam: I don't want to like anyone to come away with me being like, wow, Adam really hated Superman versus Spider Man.

Adam: I'm like.

Adam: Like, no, I didn't.

Adam: I just.

Adam: It felt.

Case: Yeah, it feels dated.

Adam: Weird.

Adam: Yeah, it feels dated.

Adam: That's it.

Adam: That's it.

Case: And that's fine.

Adam: I think, Case, you should.

Adam: You should be on a podcast host, because I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

Adam: No, I think it's.

Adam: I.

Adam: It's interesting.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Like, it is so dated and dated in a way that, like, isn't necessarily a.

Adam: I don't want to say it's dated in a pejorative sense, because it's like, there are things that are dated that you're like, oh, my God, we watched this and we thought this was okay.

Adam: Or we.

Adam: We read this and we thought this was great, and, like, wow, this is, like, super racist.

Adam: Like, that.

Adam: That's not.

Adam: This.

Case: It doesn't hold up.

Case: No.

Adam: Really?

Adam: I was gonna say there's kind of.

Adam: There's one podcast I did a few years ago where we.

Adam: We rewatched Little Monsters.

Adam: Howie Mandel and.

Adam: God, what's his name?

Adam: He's from the Wonder Years movie.

Adam: It does not hold up.

Adam: It's bad.

Case: Yeah.

Adam: Fred Savage.

Adam: Yeah, it's bad.

Case: Really?

Adam: It's real bad.

Adam: It has one scene that I love, but, like, it's a bad movie.

Adam: I felt.

Adam: I.

Adam: I just went on and I just, like, basically, you started off like, oh, this is why I really love this movie as a kid.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: Then we go and watch it, come back a couple hours later.

Case: Let's watch.

Adam: I think probably.

Adam: Yeah.

Case: Was that with.

Case: With Brett, Sam, Ash, and possibly Pat at the time?

Adam: It's been.

Adam: I think.

Adam: Yeah, it's been.

Adam: It's been, like, okay.

Adam: Three or four years okay.

Case: Yeah.

Case: So that.

Case: I think that.

Case: I think they're our friends.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, I got you.

Adam: I think.

Adam: Yeah, I think it's part of that.

Adam: Yeah.

Adam: I was just like, I'm sorry.

Adam: I am sorry.

Adam: No, but yeah, like, so like, I don't want to sit here and say like, don't read this comic.

Adam: It will not hold up.

Adam: It's more like if you're going to reread, if you're going to read this comic or even reread it, just go in knowing that like you are reading a historical document, you're reading something of its time.

Adam: It has not aged well, but it has not aged poorly.

Adam: If that.

Case: There's bits that are rough.

Case: Again, the Africa scene is.

Case: Is pretty rough in there.

Case: And the Africa scene aside, there's nothing that's like, truly offensive.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: I mean it's.

Adam: Yeah, there's.

Adam: There's nothing in this where you're like, they're not gonna repel.

Adam: Like, it's not like Song of the south.

Adam: You know, it's not like, wow, this is just super crazy racist.

Adam: You're just like, okay, this is.

Adam: This is kinda racist.

Adam: But like, also, it's well intentioned.

Adam: Or at least like, yeah, it's well intentioned.

Adam: It's well intentioned racism, which is really weird.

Jmike: Yeah.

Adam: Oh, God.

Adam: I think you should edit some of this.

Adam: I don't know how we talk about any of that.

Adam: This.

Adam: No, because it is.

Adam: It's weird because it's like again, like nothing in it.

Adam: You'll sit there and sit like, oh my God.

Adam: Because like there is that one panel where you're like, oh my God.

Adam: And the next pound, you're like, oh, it's fine.

Adam: Yeah, not great, but fine.

Jmike: Anyway, there's a bunch of panels that are like.

Jmike: That was a choice.

Case: Yep.

Case: Yeah, yeah, it was a choice they made.

Jmike: That was a choice.

Adam: Yeah, yeah.

Adam: Again, it's so.

Adam: It's like, it's dated in the best and worst way.

Adam: No, it's dated in the best but not the worst ways.

Adam: There you go.

Case: That's a good description.

Adam: Not the worst.

Case: You know what's not dated in either of the best or worst ways?

Case: That is the stuff that you have going on.

Case: Adam, would you care to share what you can share with people?

Adam: Yeah, what can I share?

Adam: So my most recent project was Star wars from a certain point of view, Return of the Jedi.

Adam: It's available wherever fine books are so old.

Adam: It's my very first Star wars and it was quite literally a dream come true.

Adam: You can Listen to my Green Llama audio drama.

Adam: It's available on all podcast apps.

Adam: Wherever you find your favorite podcast.

Adam: I hope to write a second season once I get through this gamut of projects, which include three projects I cannot talk about.

Adam: An original sci fi mystery, which is a novel that I'm working on, and the third Green Llama novel, which I am heavily revising as we speak.

Case: So cool.

Case: And you said that so succinctly.

Case: I'm just.

Adam: That wasn't edited at all.

Adam: I didn't have a second time around.

Adam: I don't know why you're saying that.

Case: Who can say?

Case: J Mike, how about you?

Case: Where can people find you, follow you?

Case: What have you got going on?

Jmike: Oh, gosh.

Jmike: I'm not as exciting as Adam is.

Jmike: I don't write books and things.

Jmike: But you can also find me over on Bluesky 5 Bluesky Social.

Jmike: There I am.

Jmike: I've got a lot of followers.

Jmike: I'm very happy about that.

Jmike: Now, Adam, did people have been coming to find me case.

Case: Adam, did we give you a chance to plug or did you give social plugs?

Adam: I'll do that right now.

Adam: And you can find me on bluesky adamlantzgarcia and Instagram dymlancegarcia because those are the two social media platforms I'm using these days.

Case: There's a lot of discord servers that actually will get.

Case: You will get in trouble if you post X links because it is not a welcome site on a lot of places that.

Case: That, that care about their community.

Adam: I wonder why I can.

Adam: It's a mystery.

Adam: I don't know why.

Jmike: Who knows?

Adam: Probably because the worst person in the world owns it.

Case: Anyway, as for me, you can find me on the Blue Sky Aesakin.

Case: You can also find me on Instagram ezelcoatl5 because I am still holding on to my AIM screen name from high school for dear life.

Case: So yeah, that's where you can find me.

Case: You can find the show@ certainpov.com you can find tons of great shows at certain POV.

Case: You know what?

Case: We were talking about our mutual friend Matt, AKA Stormageddon before because they used to be our editor and I subjected them to way too many crazy long episodes to edit.

Case: So I'm gonna give a shout out to Fun and Games with Matt and Jeff, which is a really fun podcast about video game culture.

Case: It's really cool.

Case: You should check it out.

Case: They've been going strong and I do the episode art for them and it's always a blast listening to what they're talking about.

Case: So really good podcast.

Case: Then circle back here and check out what we've got next time.

Case: But until then, stay super man.

Jmike: Men of Steel is a Certain POV production.

Jmike: Our hosts are J.

Jmike: Mike Fsen and Case Aiken.

Jmike: The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi.

Jmike: Our logo is by Chris Bautista and episode art is by Case Aiken.

Jmike: Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

Adam: Video games are a unique medium.

Adam: They can tell stories, immerse us in.

Case: Strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality.

Adam: But at the end of the day, video games are fun.

Adam: Whatever fun is to you.

Case: I'm Jeff Moonan.

Adam: And I am Matt, AKA Stormageddon.

Case: And on Fun and Games we talk about the history, trends and community of video games.

Adam: It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them.

Case: And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us.

Adam: Fun and Games Podcast with Matt and Jeff.

Adam: Find us on certainpow.com or wherever you.

Case: Get your podcasts and happy gaming.cpov certainpov.com.