Hey, welcome to the main podcast.

Joe Roeder here, bringing you some good fly fishing podcast, another edition of Tuesday's Tippets here on this beautiful Wednesday afternoon, because I was gone yesterday and got back from deer hunting.

No deer.

Snow.

A lot of snow.

A lot of snow.

Which is good.

Yeah, but now we're back in our fishing jobs.

Eric was out too in a different area, and he also got snowed on.

I got more snow yeah it was you know it's funny like we were talking about how the whole summer and it's hot and you complain and you kind of want it to cool off and never seems like we get that just right it's always boom too much and then you kind of miss the nice summer yeah the cascades are brutal man hunting high country mule deer in the cascades is it's tough but it's kind of funny.

It makes, I wouldn't say fly fishing seem easy, but I'm like really glad to go back to trout fishing because it's more fair.

You know, you know, your quarry's there and there's certain things you could do to generate action for yourself.

But gosh, there were times this last weekend, I just felt helpless up there.

You know, no visibility, blowing snow, freezing cold, back to trout.

And for a while, I can lick my wounds here the next, this next few days.

Well and you could trout fish more than 10 days out of the year so yeah that's a good point there's a lot of pressure on you but yeah yeah so men podcast here a couple little announcements i always forget to do announcements but we have our women's rendezvous coming up october 19th if you live in the pacific northwest you're either a lady or you know a lady that wants to just come to our open house learn about our women's programs meet our guide gals there's there's like it's on our homepage right now and there's a couple other links and then the other one is snuck up on me is the fly fishing film tour.

I saw that up there in the office.

When is it?

November 14th.

Yeah.

Is it here again?

It's here in the lodge.

And yep, it's a conservation organization called Washington Waters Trust.

And I know these trusts exist in other states, but they try to help keep cooled, clean water in our fish bearing streams.

Yes, we do this benefit screening November 14th.

And yeah, just kind of earmark the date.

there's i'm sending out a newsletter like this weekend and then it'll be on our website etc but you don't freak out if you're listening to this yeah i got your ticket yet just go to our website brow around or go to our social media and do that yeah those are really the only, major events coming up we're going to do a tying rendezvous sometime this winter we haven't landed on date yet but that's going to be fun it's gonna be like you me and like 12 other knuckleheads in here just wrapping bugs and just a very casual event like really low pressure for anybody coming we'll probably do have some type of structure to it but it'll be a lot of people just tying bugs answering questions and chatting about fishing and with a theme largely being like replicatable flies i mean i think most of our tying network here with the exception of a couple weirdos like hayden and skyler the thai showbugs yeah we tie guide flies four ingredients dude four ingredients four minutes tops but you know my four and four you know recipes so yeah tying rendezvous will be this winter yeah but you're just off the river man i literally grabbed you minutes after taking your boat out so tell me a little bit about fishing today.

Good fishing.

I mean, I've been gone, like you said, hunting, so a little bit of time away.

And then we had that big cold snap and it's beautiful down here.

I mean, I heard Monday was really windy in the Canyon and some people didn't go out fishing and stuff like bad wind.

And it was cold this morning.

I was probably, I don't have a thermometer in my new rig, but it was definitely below freezing.

24 degrees.

24.

I mean, it was cold.

I had the big jacket on.

I had the waterproof green gloves you know getting the ice out of the boat but usually when that happens right the first cold snap those big fish start being more active and that definitely was the case today I mean we didn't we didn't catch a lot of fish I mean one or two fish in in a good area you know and I was doing a three boater right so sharing water sharing sharing some water you know I mean you know doing some laps but I'd be the average size probably double what it's been oh man so yeah you You guys hit some nice fish.

Yeah.

So the bigger trout's metabolism kind of stayed up and triggered the bite a little bit.

Yeah.

Triggered the bite.

I mean, yeah.

So it was good fishing.

I mean, same similar flies that's been working.

I mean, blue wings primarily, but we also did break out some stones because usually I've just, I mean, I have guided enough, like you kind of start to anticipate stuff, just based on the weather and the calendar and all that.

So we did start fishing stones again, and maybe every third fish was on a stonefly.

Not bad.

I haven't fished a stonefly in probably six weeks, a stonefly nymph.

Just because I felt like the fish were under such, they were like.

Probably would repel fish.

Oh yeah.

The fish swim away from the Pat's rubber leg, you know, at certain points of the year.

But yeah, I've seen that too.

Like a good size stone fly in the winter time.

There's kind of resurgence to that pattern.

I think the bugs like it too.

Like, you know, I'm looking at the river right now and the sun angle has gotten so low, so fast in the last week or so.

It's like just gotten to the point where these canyon walls are giving us way more shade.

And I firmly believe that those bugs, you know, they know their prey.

I mean, otherwise they wouldn't, you know, be able to survive escaping the trout, the birds and other bugs, quite frankly, because they're predatory insects like the salmon fly nymph in the river.

And I think just the bugs in general get more active.

They like those longer periods of shade this time of year.

What about, so stones work, what are you running for small bugs?

Yeah, I've been using, I mean, just everything's a Euronymph anymore, but those, I can't say enough good things about the, the Pertigons from Montana Fly Company.

So that this, they're called a Spanish bullet and they have many different colors.

The green one, of course, works.

With a hot collar, it seems to work better.

Those are the ones that are actually available down to size 18, right?

They're down to size 18, yeah.

And then there's a micro Protagon, which I haven't really used that one.

It's on a little different style hook.

It's on a flatter jig hook.

And then a little bit, instead of a 90 degree eye, it's just a downturn eye.

And I haven't used those.

Those are pretty small.

But those would be good for a really techie river.

And those go down to a 22.

toot yeah that's the problem with some of those patterns they only make them in in a couple of sizes a lot of the protagons i i was explaining the history of the protagon nymph recently and you know like most history with me goes in one year and out the other science i i can retain that but the protagon really is like an it's a great anchor fly for tightline nymphing i mean it gets down super fast gets the bottom and then drags whatever you have above it down behind it so a lot of those protagons initially at least from my experience as a fly buyer wholesale fly buyer weren't available in a lot of those itty bitties you know sizes and it's really nice especially with like a really light indy rig to be able to run like a size 18 protagon that actually drops like a bullet and stabilizes itself yeah i mean they're extremely high quality the gold there's one that's i don't remember the color the pmd is like a that thing is deadly i don't know that it's that color it's it's like it's a it's a gold bead quill body and has a little like lime green hot spot i put that a couple weeks ago i put that on our trout snack tuesday instagram that fly is freaking killer what's the actual name of the color i don't know but it's got that chartreuse floss right behind the bead yeah i know the one you're talking about and it's that quill body.

You know, because it's really hard to tie a production fly with quills and have them be consistently good, you know what I mean?

Yeah, because they're a piece of an animal that are very inconsistent by nature.

Well, these are really quality.

And they're all good.

And the whatever hook, I mean, they're probably using Montana Fly Company hooks, I'm sure.

I've always liked those.

They're one of the few tiny little flies like that.

You can catch a big fish on it and they don't bend.

Yeah, you don't get hook flies.

Yes.

Because like nothing against solitude fly company, but forever that's, well, ever long it came out.

I mean, it's only been out maybe a couple of years.

That TNT bait us in a number 20, which is similar in size to this 18 that we're talking about.

It was a great fly i mean it still is a great fly but you would lose nice fish on it because it would bend out so yeah and by bend out you're not just talking about a permanent bend but you're just talking um excuse me need to sip a beer or something you're talking about hook flex part of the time right so yeah i'd bend out and then you know you you either tell your guests that it bent out and you cut it off and throw it away if you're a good guy.

And if you're a cheap bass, then you bend it back and keep fishing.

Oh, I didn't even know they would bend back.

I've always thrown that away, Eric.

Yeah.

Okay.

I think there's a lot of hook flex that takes place in those lighter sizes too, where the hook flexes out, but it's spring steel.

So it just bounces back and you can't really see that it bent out, but it just, you know, one good head shake, just pry it open, but it just rebounds.

It's such a flexible material.

But yeah, those MFC bugs are, all of the flies we have are high quality flies.

We don't do anything, anything on the cheap with flies.

We made a decision about eight years ago to pursue nothing but the highest quality patterns.

And if a fly doesn't fish for the guides, we just, we exit.

But yeah, the hooks on those are very light wire, so they penetrate good, and they're that slick shank competition style black hook, man.

I mean, it does not take much to penetrate with those hooks.

Just quick flick the rod tip and you've got full hook penetration.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And then dry fly fishing.

I know you were on a shorter day, so we talked about this before.

You only have so many hours to pursue different things with guests, and a lot of times guests They're just out for a day on the river.

They don't, they're not necessarily checking boxes.

Like, Hey, I got one on a dry fly.

I got one on a streamer.

I got one on a nymph.

You know, they're not trying to do everything, but what did you see for dry fly fishing?

And were you able to pursue feeding fish today?

We didn't.

I mean, the guys I had were, you know, they had fished before, but they're just out there to have fun.

And I mean, drink some beers.

That's what we were doing today.

Now, you know, Shan had He had Eric You know, clearly Of the group, he's The one that brings his rods and he's got his waders You know, he fishes, And so they did some dry fly fishing, caught a couple on dries, You know, you'll see A lot of.

Pretty small ones was what I was seeing up on top and maybe every 20th fish I saw rise was like a you know you want to catch yeah in your optimal target range yeah yeah yeah so but you know I mean two o'clock you know that's right about when it's been happening so you know and and something you've always told people and and I think you know is really important to do is have a rod set for that because then you'll actually do it you you won't you won't switch out a whole nymph rig to pursue one or two feeders and then switch it back so you're right you'll just end up bypassing these opportunities so yeah the two rod system dude i i kept i keep talking about this damn guy but man he had the rod holder a couple weeks ago did i talk to you about him where he had the rod holder on his hip the waiting trip we waited all day i think i know the one it's like a hook and that has a little elastic thing.

Yeah, he had a little elastic thing.

And then Mark Melnick showed me a prototype of another one that a guy's built in Canada that's a freaking amazing rod holder.

I've never been like a big rod holder guy.

I've always thought pretty much every rod holder so that I could hike around with a rod on my hip and then one in my hand has been a piece of garbage.

They've just been distracting and I usually find other ways to hold them.

But that guy had, every time we got out of the boat, he would have two rods with him.

He just did as a matter of discipline, I'd be like, Hey, let's get out and we're going to, we're going to wade and nymph this, or we're going to wade and streamer fish this.

And then he would, by default, always grab his dry fly rod.

And there were a couple of times during the day that it, he was like, I don't know, he'd be 50 yards from the boat, you know, probably not going to like hike, you know, all the way back to the boat and get his dry fly rod.

Yeah.

He'd reel in and then switch and then make one or two casts and get a trout on the dry fly.

And I was like, man, I was like, that guy really had a, had his stuff together.

Yeah, I had never done that trout fishing.

And so much trout fishing for me anymore is out of a boat.

And yeah, you can just grab one of the rod holder.

But even then, I needed to be better about have a dry fly rod set up and ready to go for these, for dry fly fishing like this.

That's a hatch.

You know, in the spring, right, when it's squalas, you know, what I'll do is I'll typically re-rig the rods while we're having lunch or something.

And then boom, we're ready to go.

And you're going to commit to it for a couple of hours.

Oh, we're doing it.

Yeah.

Just to get, cause you need to get in the groove and search.

But like, man, when these fish are like random popcorn and you're like, oh, there's one popped.

You've got to be able to just grab the rod, take a shot at that one fish.

And if you have success, maybe you just start head hunting.

But yeah, I agree.

I, uh, I'm going to go out tomorrow, two o'clock.

That's, that's the time I need to get out of here and go fishing.

Two o'clock is when like yeah that was the hatch i think i'm just gonna road hunt a little bit tomorrow yeah i mean you know yeah there's i mean there's lots of targets like like said not not a ton of nice ones but i mean and the wading is i mean if you're a good waiter like you can get after it right yeah you don't really the boat is a lot much less essential even almost a burden if you float too far you know like pick out a section and then you get into good blue inks because you could spend hours in one big flat yeah you gotta try walking up from rosa it's crazy what it's like in there right now walking up.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, I mean, I've floated through there one other time when they were letting the water out below, you know, from Rosadam.

And it's like, you know, significantly, you know, it's fast and there's exposed gravel bars in there right now.

And we caught a couple of fish in there.

I've never done worth a crap below.

So what we're talking about here is we have a small dam about 10 miles downstream from here.

Yeah.

So it's like basically a glorified diversion dam and it makes a little bit of a lake, you know, it's still moving water.

And then they keep water in that all summer.

And then at the end of the season, they drop it.

And so what was a lake is now a river.

Yeah.

Basically.

And I've never done worth a crap hiking down below.

Oh no, I just mean like hike up from the lake.

Okay.

Because down below, it's like, I've always thought, oh, now I'm going to go catch all these big fish that were living down here in the lake all summer.

And that has never worked out for me.

All I do is get stuck in the mud down there.

Well, I think it's because it's so low because the other time that.

That I floated through there in the winter.

It was in the winter.

Or no, it was in the early spring.

Me and Max were fun fishing one day.

And they were letting the water out down there.

But it was a normal flow.

It was, well, it was actually higher than average.

It was probably like 2,200, 2,500 CFS.

And it was just ripping through there, right?

Oh, so there was actual current where the lake normally is.

But not so low that it was just a riffle like right now.

Well, like right now, it's really fishy.

The time I floated through there before, it was like, warp speed it was warp speed and it wasn't fishy at all now there's some holes there's some holes there's there's some you can see the bottom like there's nice foam lines and like i said we caught some fish in there dude i gotta go check that out it could be cool i might sneak down there tomorrow i'm just gonna take my hatch rod out and just hunt for blue wings i'm just gonna go out and fish for about two hours and then yeah the more i fished man especially on these technical stuff is just get right to it throw the littlest but if you can see it and tie it on throw the littlest damn bug throw it on 6x tip it and just get it done because those fish are so smart when they're in you know i was out fishing last week i fished with the new fly fisher youtube channel last week oh yeah but you know one thing i noticed in our dry fly fishing is like the biggest fish seem to be in the slickest like glassiest water in the spooky freaking spots like really really tech now there were little ones like in the riffles and stuff like that but man some of the bigger fish were in that just glassy glassy water rather than throw you know a 16 or 18 atom on 5x a few times i was like no we're just gonna go right for the dreaded 6x and a little teeny tiny compare it on and just go for it on the first cast because your odds of catching the fish decrease with every cast you throw at those fish.

It's like, this is like technical Missouri River style match the hatch fishing right now.

Yeah, and there's.

It's like that, but a couple less fish.

Yeah, we don't have 5,000 18-inch drought per mile.

It's not quite like that.

We like to earn our 18-inch drought here.

That's for sure.

Yeah, that show we filmed went good.

Yeah, so they were filming a legitimate...

Like segment.

Oh, they're professional.

Yeah, because, well, the guy, I mean, they were taking some, I don't know if he was taking still photos or video at the shop, a little bit, you know, like, but he really didn't, was Ryan, right?

Ryan was the, okay, yeah.

Yeah, he's the cinematographer.

Yeah, I thought he would have a bigger camera.

I mean, he just shoots on that Sony.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's amazing how small that stuff.

Well, it's a pretty high end, I mean, the camera's anymore pretty small.

It's a pretty high end Sony.

But no, I love, I like some of their stuff.

It's bigger than my Sony.

Yeah, it is.

But what float did you do?

I'm glad you didn't show up with an iPhone.

Although the macro's not, there's some little things you can do on the iPhones that are pretty good.

But yeah, we fished for two days.

Where'd you float both days?

Well, the first day, God, where'd we put in the first day?

We floated from Umtanem, and I was going to go all the way to the slab and just cherry pick.

And of course, you know, that's about what, a seven mile float.

A good half day.

Yeah, that didn't work out, man.

I killed it.

We could only make it four miles at most.

So we, yeah, so we put in an umptanum.

And I'll be honest, I was super busy the day before.

I thought I'd be all prepared because he's like, man, he's like, anytime I go to these destinations, I primarily will just use your gear because he's traveling from Toronto area.

And he's like, I don't want to pack all my flies and all my gear and stuff.

And so he did bring a couple of rods and he brought a really great single hand streamer rod he had norvis helios helios d six-way with a sink tip which was like soup super for this time of year and how we rolled into the first little bucket we put it in umtanem and now we went to we went across from umtanem you know, And if people poach spots off this podcast, wonderful job.

Well done, Joe.

I'll point my, pat myself on the back, but we went just across from Montana and right up above the bridge.

Shan will skin me for this cause he loves that little spot.

It's very, it's kind of discreet, you know, like the untrained eye won't see it.

Yeah.

There's been a couple of YouTube videos where we're fishing there.

It.

I'll just say it's really not that good of a wade fishing spot because if you're going to fish it right, you better be nine feet tall.

And you're going to stand in the muck.

Yeah, it's really not a very good wade fishing spot.

So we waded it.

So we had to walk through all that mud and all those weeds, dude.

And it was the first spot.

And I really want Mark to have a great experience here.

And I don't want to over promote the river, but I do like celebrating what we have.

I do want to showcase some good fishing because I think that this is a very special fishery.

And so I like, frankly, I'm kind of nervous.

I'm like, oh man, I'm here wading through the buck, you know, probably not like a, cause you want like a really good tempo for the day.

So wading through the buck generally is a good tempo.

Dude, we got in there and caught like right off the bat, you know, just single hand swinging with little itty bitty buggers and got a couple of fish right off the bat swinging buggers in there.

And I was like, okay, it's on.

Cause that morning was just a little bit colder, not as good as today, but that morning was a little bit colder.

So we waited the muck, did all that, got a couple of fish.

And then we went down to a little more secretive bucket.

That's just a little ways down there.

I won't even say if it's river.

Did you catch some fish in that secretive bucket?

You know the bucket I'm talking about?

Well, I haven't been catching anything there.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it's that kind of discreet little bucket.

That's hard, very hard to read it for a really trained eye that's out here a lot.

You'll see it but there's a there's a dip a random dip in the bedrock and dude we got in there we caught two fish that would like one of them was 20 you know the other one was pushing 20 i think we got a third one and we caught them on uh three different things that little bucket we got one single hand swinging on a little itty bitty bugger and i think it was like a little hibernator i switched around quite a bit so i can't remember a little bit the thing i like about the hibernator Ooh, this is interesting.

This is like actually what Tuesday's Tippets are supposed to be about.

I swung it first with a beadhead micro mini Dalai Lama thing.

I can't remember the name.

It's like a beadhead Dalai Lama.

It's the mini.

And that sea fly.

Yeah, beautiful little fly.

I remember the rep gave me a few of those as samples.

And I was like, I did really well.

I'm like, oh, we have to carry this thing.

So we swung with that.

And then I held the thing in the water.

And because it's heavy, it like wasn't flapping around and wandering.

And then I put that hibernator on.

And that hibernator is essentially unweighted.

There's a lot of material.

And that hibernator was all over the place, just on current tension, just like whipping around at the end of the tippet.

I just like literally held the two almost side by side.

I held one.

I go, dude, that thing is just doesn't have the action in this slow current.

And the current is not that slow.

It's just the river's low.

The Dalai Lama didn't have enough action.

No.

And then we put the hibernator on and it was whipping all over the place.

And we got a little snaggy with the llama and we put that hibernator on and boom, got a freaking fabulous rainbow.

and great fish.

And then we swung it with a single-hander and then we tight-lined it and we got a good one on like one, I can't remember.

I think it was the biggest size of the Nether Montana Fly Company fly.

They're not a sponsor, I promise you.

We just happen to sell their flies.

It was the Barry's PCP, which is running the biggest one as an anchor.

And then we played around a little bit more and Mark doesn't have a tremendous amount have experienced tightline nymph thing.

We're chatting about this pre-episode, but he's super fishy and he has done some of it, you know, like, so the fact that he's just fishy, he.

Did really well on managing the line because there's no form of fishing that is more hypersensitive to mistakes on the angler than tight line nipping.

I mean, you twitch your rod tip wrong, you destroy the whole drift.

You twitch your rod tip wrong on a slack line and who cares?

The fish certainly don't.

So we played around a little bit and then I switched up to that peacock partridge soft tackle that, what is it, $2 fly, real fly, just a really good classic pattern.

And we got one on that we got a fish that i can't say it was 20 but it was all at 18, on a on a size 20 and that hook held which i was shocked i was like surprised we got him right in the upper lip just perfect right in the bone so no harm to the trout just a little exercise and i mean we caught a half dozen fish there and we got on a soft tackle streamer and you know the various pcp and you were waiting or were you on all waiting waiting yeah everything we did we We fished wading on day one 80 to 90% of the time because when you're trying to make any kind of film, the boat's just a mess.

I mean, the angles are bad.

It's obnoxious, like trying to get video of the fish being netted.

And I'm hypersensitive to a quick land net release on fish.

These aren't my fish, so I need to take good care of them.

But, dude, we did not throw an indicator all day.

We caught fish on dries, soft-hackle tightlining, anchorfly tightlining, and streamers.

And we didn't land one on a spay, but we hooked a couple on spay, which was...

We did a whole bunch of different stuff.

Oh, yeah.

On day one.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was great.

Well, if we got to throw some tips in, my tip is...

Go and when you're buying flies like if you're gonna come to the river anyway like we we will have a lot of folks they'll buy flies on the website and come pick them up you know and they're going fishing like i think you should just come into the store and pick out your flies because i can't tell you how many times i've bought flies online and i was you know very excited about this new pattern and it's a good pattern right but maybe it's bigger than i thought it was going to Or the beads not as heavy as you thought Like that hibernator fly If you just look at it in a picture, Looks like any beadhead streamer But it's a plastic bead on that fly So it's so light, I think if you come in and fish the river anyway Come in the store We got in the new space They're in the shop And we have tons and tons of flies You can pick it out You just cost Jonathan 5 hours a week in shipping Pack and orders I mean, if you need to get going quick, that's great, but I think you're going to get exactly what you want that way.

Yeah, there is something about, yeah, that is a good tip of holding a fly in your hand and understanding the weight.

The actual size, because a 16 isn't a 16 isn't a 16.

There is no universal standardized IGFA measure for now.

How a 16 could be tied, you could tie one tiny and sparse and just have a good gape on the hook, which is personally how I like to tie my flies.

I like them really lightly dressed, but with a bigger hook size, if I can do it.

But yeah, that's a sound piece of advice.

and then like here's a tip that i just gave a guy this afternoon he came in the store and i looked at my watch and i think it was 157 uh-huh it was it was like the hatch was just about to come off three minutes to blue wings dude yeah yeah yeah and he came in he's like hey i'm going out this afternoon what do you recommend and you know the default answer would be like generally we try to give people the shortest route to catching a fish.

So often it's like, oh, get your Indy and here's an imp, right?

And I was like, you know, I go, you just got a few hours this afternoon.

He's like, because I mean, really the fishing's done by six, you know, that would be pretty late right now.

So I'm like, well, by the time this guy waders up, rigs up, gets the river.

Let's just be honest, it's going to be an hour, you know, string his rods up, gets his waders.

So he's fishing by closer to three.

I said, hey, just get a half dozen blueing olives and literally just go hunt for feeding fish like keep it simple stupid don't chase your tail don't try to do everything in a single day just let the fish show you where they're at and really like commit to dry fly fishing.

And the downtime you have like changing rigs man it just costs you such precious time especially in the fall when the bite window like optimal bite window is like noon to three like that's kind of the prime time, like you don't want to be halfway through that changing a few, unless you're really fast at changing things.

That is the crux, you know, one of the crux of the do-it-yourself anglers is like re-rigging an indicator rig to a, you know, throwing a fresh taper leader on and then getting in the groove, right.

For dry fly fishing.

So I think that was a good tip when you have like a short window, just commit to doing one thing and doing it really well.

Lean into it.

Oh yeah.

And I mean, you see, there was a gentleman out there today that he was swinging where we had lunch, you know, and that's what he's doing, you know, later passed him in a little different spot he's child span and both good runs you know i don't know if he was catching a lot right but he wasn't doing a bunch of different stuff you know he's child span go down to the next run child's bay you know like if that's how you want to fish like just do it and i mean who cares if you're catching the most fish dude so last year on october 23rd i know the date because I went back and looked at Instagram.

It has one nice thing about social media sometimes is I can go back and I can be like, Hey, when, when, when the heck did that thing happen?

In the last October 22nd, I, it was October 22nd or October 23rd.

I'd have to go back and look, but I got a new spay reel.

I'd gotten one of those Galvin swing reels and I was like so excited.

So I'm like, Oh, I'm going to rig it up.

I'm going to go fish my new reel.

So I went up and floated in Watermaster didn't take any other year except my trout spay gear because like the bluing olive hatch had been real benign and this is the time of year to spay fish and.

The cool thing about spay fishing is like you bring six flies in a spool of 3X fluoro right now.

And that's your entire tackle set, right?

In your pocket.

Yeah, it's literally.

And so that's all I brought.

And I went up and I floated from umpte and them down to here.

And I was like, oh, I'm going to get them on my new reel today.

I'm so excited.

It was the most epic blueing olive hatch of all time.

Like, I mean, dude, and they would not eat a streamer.

Like they would not touch a streamer.

they wouldn't eat a streamer they wouldn't like i was literally swinging into feeding fish and jigging it like hanging it straight above them like they've got to eat it it's right in their face and then they like were swimming around my fly to eat blowing but i did catch a coho that day which is pretty oh no way pretty rare and it wasn't entirely booty it got me real excited it actually fought pretty good shane caught a sucker fish today oh that's hard and dude you know what that's what we were talking about right we were like we actually like kind of held the boat there you know and watched you know because it is rare yeah the other the guy in the front of my boat steve dude he hooks one and he broke it off i mean it it took one run because they fight pretty good and broke him right off but i've never i've not seen that before uh yeah too yeah because you see the suckers they're like there's some eight pounders in there and people ask all the time dude what do you catch those on i'm like if i knew i would be one of the greatest sucker guides on the Yakima River because you do, you hook them in pretty good current sometimes.

They fight hard.

Yeah, they were fun.

That's like a once a year thing.

Yeah, you don't, we can't get them consistently because they feed down.

You know, maybe, I don't know if I could stand there with a tight liner rig and figure out how to get them.

I would entertain that.

I will tell you this winter, I am going to go do a little whitefish beatdown.

The season for retention opens like December 1st, right?

Yeah, I think it's December 1 to Feb 1.

Yeah.

I think.

I'm going to keep...

Everybody talks about great eating whitefish are.

Not been my experience, but I haven't kept whitefish in 15 or 20 years.

Well, how was that one that you kept and gave to Kevin?

Dude, I don't know.

He never said anything about it.

Oh, he didn't.

Yeah.

What did you say?

Oh, he, I'm sure it was spectacular.

I, there was a huge whitefish I brought.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

I was pretty proud of myself, brought back a giant whitefish.

And then I didn't have the audacity to be like, Hey, did you cook me my whitefish?

Yeah, yeah.

But I'm going to keep some this year because I'm tired of people telling me how great they are.

But the last time I kept them was so many years ago.

But then I had a bunch of beers afterwards, you know, to celebrate the big whitefish kill.

It was cold out.

So they were, I mean, fish weren't going to go bad or anything.

It was like I don't know, in the teens, they were half frozen in the morning and I didn't clean them until the next day.

And then I had this little chief smoker, you know what I'm talking about?

Yeah.

A tiny thing from Walmart.

Yeah.

And I wasn't really getting up to temperature good.

It was like trying to do it in my backyard.

I'm like, I'm not, I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.

And then I had to finish them in the oven.

The whole thing was just a complete train wreck.

You know, from, from the time the first beer got cracked at the end of the fishing day, the whole whitefish processing was a disaster so I got through the whitefish I'd made like a cream cheese type spread but I'm gonna do it this year and I'm gonna do it right and I'd like to have like.

I'd like to be that guy who can catch a whitefish and smoke it, and it's really good.

I mean, why not?

I mean, just the white—if you haven't fished out here in the winter, you'll see quite a few gear guys fishing for whitefish.

It's a popular sport.

Yeah, I mean, a surprising amount of guys come on whitefish, and I mean, they're always real friendly, you know, like, I mean, it's cool.

I mean, it'd be good to know.

No issues with the gear fishermen as long as they handle trout good.

Like it's the only, and I'm not saying they don't, I think there's fly fishermen that are guilty of mishandling trout, you know, like just go look at anybody's social media feed and look at all the trout out of the water.

So I got no problem with the gear guys.

I should stop and talk to one of those old timers.

There's a guy in a Chevy that's always up there frustration flats.

I need to talk to that guy and be like, dude, I know it's a family recipe, but I need to know how you prep your whitefish because that guy is into it.

It will be 10 degrees and icebergs coming down the river and that dude is getting after it.

So he's got to figure it out how to eat those things because that's not a pleasurable recreational experience, in my opinion, what he's undergoing.

So they got to be pretty damn good.

But yeah, I'll ask Chef too.

I got to check in with him, but I didn't want to go back to him and be like, hey, did you cook me my whitefish?

But yeah, the whitefish during the wintertime, I mean, you can get some big slabby whitefish.

And when you get into a little pot of them, they're pre-spawn, you can get 10 whitefish in a hole, you know, I want to say like quickly, but you can get 10 whitefish out of a spot and that's the limit.

So you can make a pretty good hole.

Yeah, I don't know.

I've always caught the most whitefish, like.

Last week that was like oh well they're probably starting to bulk up for pre-spawn exactly yeah and you can fish the tail outs and we were catching a lot of whiteys we only caught one whitefish well i don't have any white fishing catching tips for this podcast other than something with a big ass bead on it they like that flashy stuff man fish gravel tail outs if you want to get white that's your tip gravelly tail outs if you're somewhere else in the west that has more like we don't really have that many whitefish here like i mean some rivers are like a nuisance you know dude the methow river the metal the blackfoot which you have a kid take your kid and fish gravel tail outs and they will love fishing yeah it's like right where that water speeds up i mean they're not in slow water they you know i catch trout in slower water than white fish by far white white fisher they got a pointy head man they're pretty good at feeding in in, a fairly swift current did our podcast just turn into a white fish podcast.

Oh, well, I was, my tip for the whitefish is that's, you can avoid them by not fishing that water.

And then you can target them by fishing that water.

There you are back up.

There you are back up on your high horse again, Eric.

I don't want to catch them.

No, we first started talking about suckers.

Yeah.

I just mentioned that because it's so rare.

Oh, so, so, you know, we did see, you know, when I was out with, and so that episode of the new fly fisher will come out sometime in 2026.

And those guys, their video production skills like exceed mine by 20 million times.

I mean, they've got drones, they've got different cameras, they got underwater cameras, they got, they got so much cool stuff.

They've got footage on their channel.

That's just amazing.

They really are a diligent crew for production.

But we were, we were, you know, fishing on day two.

And then, you know, Mark, the host of the show is, he said, oh, I've spayed just a little bit.

Right.

So like, super humble dude.

I'm like, okay, like I'm expecting to be kind of a hack, you know, like I've spayed just a little bit.

He was solid on spay.

I mean, he didn't even know the name.

I mean, he couldn't like recollect the names of the cast.

I'm like, can you cack-handed snap T?

He's like, what's that?

And I go, oh, just like this.

You know, like, he's like, oh, like this?

Whoop, whoop, whoosh.

You know, like no issues.

And he wasn't hustling me.

He was just like, he wasn't goofing off.

But he ended up getting fish, spay fishing the next day.

You were down in the canyon again?

Yeah.

We, so we connected the dots.

We ended up going back down and putting in at Luma.

And so basically floated Umptanum to mares over the course of two days.

And I thought about going to a different venue and going upriver, but I really wanted to highlight, I wanted to stay in the Canyon.

Plus I really wanted to get onto blue wings, which we did better on dry flies on day two.

And we ended up catching a really, really nice fish.

We had to get in the boat to get them.

Um, But man, this fish was the sneakiest, sneakiest fish.

It was holding in black, glassy water.

Like, I mean, and Mark's a super good fisherman, but you know, like we're here all the time.

So we have trained eyes attuned to our own river.

And I would sit there and watch this fish feed.

I'd be like, yep, there he was again.

Did you see him?

And Mark's like, no, man, like, where are you, where are you looking?

And I'm like, I'd point my oar and be like, okay, just wait.

I'm like, oh, did you see him?

And be like, no, dude, I missed him.

He's like, you're, he's like, you're messing with me.

I'm like, no, dude, he's there.

But we ended up catching them on like a CDC, a CDC done.

But what I think that fish was doing, it was real late in the day, was just eating spinners.

And when they're eating spinners, there's zero flight risk.

And they can be the super, they can be like, they're eating trichos, you know, cause that's when fishy trichos is like when they're dead, right?

Trico spinner fall.

Well, the blue wing spinner fall is similar.

And just today I put a video on Instagram of like, I went and filmed macros of what a spinner is, you know, with its wings laid out flat on the water.

Yeah.

And that, a lot of times, I think in that real dark, glassy water late in the day, when the peak of the hatch is done, you'll see fish that are just back there in those tail outs and those glassy tail outs eating spinners.

And that CDC bug really emulates a spinner quite nicely.

It's really underdressed.

But we ended up getting that fish on a dry and caught another handful of fish, you know, like tight, you know, tight lining here and there.

And the fishing, I don't think, in fact, you told me this.

And your prediction was true.

I got less fish, but bigger fish on average down there in the lower river.

Was that you told me that?

Yeah.

Right.

When we were heading out that morning.

So we fish, fish, fish.

We get some really, really nice rainbows, a couple on streamers.

Oh, we got them on.

Here's a tip.

So this is more for, well, I wouldn't say exclusively for the boater.

But as I replay that day, we ended up throwing streamers on a sink tip, just on that Helio six weight.

And then we got down to the Miracle Mile, and you know how skinny a lot of that water is, but the fish were holding up in like 12 to 18 inches of water, man.

So, because we'd see the occasional fish feed, like in back of nothing water, you can't, some water can't be natural.

You just flat out cannot nymph fish that water.

You'd have to have the patience of Job, you know, to throw the tiniest pulse indicator and like a tiny protagon or soft tackle and pick this water apart for days.

No, and that's true dry fly water.

True dry fly water.

Like you can't.

And so we dry flyed here and there, but it was real late in the hatch.

And finally I was like, you know, we need to throw a floating line, a long ass leader, like a 10 foot leader and a little teeny streamer because we had to cover the water pretty quickly and you could do this on foot or in a boat you know when you're just hiking through some of that water that's slower than walking speed there isn't one spot that the fish are going to gravitate towards it's really like fishing a flat you can't see the fish in there because it's it's dark bottom you know shady but yeah we threw like a 10 foot leader and i threw i think real light like 4x fluorocarbon to a little olive soccer bomb and throw it way up there in the skinny water and caught really well we hooked two but we landed one really exceptional trout and that was kind of a feel-good moment of like changing strategies based on water type is like hey the sink tip is just way too much for this water we've got to lighten up and i think that's a challenge of like spooky water fishing you know some you can't nymph fish everything you know you've got to react to the water that that you're throwing into oh so where i was going with this i'm kind of like replaying the float so yeah long leader floating line little streamer we float float float and then uh dude we're floating downstream and mark goes or no it was luke or luke ryan in the back ryan looks over and goes dude look at that fish and we'd been seeing a bunch of these suckers yeah it's the sucker like and i'm like yeah look at that sucker go go go you know there's a bunch of them because normally we can't see the suckers very well.

But right now it's like an aquarium out there.

And he goes, look at that fish.

Dude, we float by this chrome bright steelhead holding it a tail out, like bright blue, like just that- Had to glow.

Just gorgeous, non-resonant trout.

Non-resonant, our trout are camouflaged here, man.

We don't see trout in the river very often.

This thing was glowing like a blue crystal.

And I go, dude, that's a steelhead.

And dude, it was right by the freaking boat.

I think the fish had been migrating and then was just tired right there.

So I roll back and I roll up and normally any resident trout and it's right, mine is gone.

Like they're so flighty, man.

And so I roll back and I go, I go, dude, we're not going to catch that fish.

Like one, you can't target steelhead.

Like two, it's just, it's not going to eat.

You know, I can see the fish there.

And he got his GoPro on like a six or eight foot stick.

And I just quietly rode up, dude.

and he took his GoPro and got right up to the fish and got this beautiful film of this.

Like 24 inches?

Yeah, like 24 inches.

Which average steelhead here?

Yeah.

Probably on the big side even for here.

Yeah, that's true.

You know, like we don't get a lot of fish in that.

I mean, I've seen one at 30 inches here over all my years guiding.

And so we don't get very many fish that, you know, like a four pound steelhead is pretty typical for us.

Yeah, we saw that steelhead, which was awesome.

You know, I really like, like seeing like, especially one that, that bright and healthy.

Hmm.

I saw one last two weeks ago.

Just holding.

Yeah.

And this one actually.

Or did you hook it?

No, no.

This one spooked.

But same thing like that you're talking about, like steelhead, when you float over them, like we'll see steelhead in the Met Owl when we're trout fishing.

Well, you'll see a lot more there just because of clarity.

And there's a bazillion steelhead in that river.

And they just have that glow.

Yeah, totally different than the red.

It's a super cool experience to see them.

I like that a lot.

It's magic, dude.

It was like, whoa.

You know, we floated over and I'm like, that is not a trout.

Not just based on size, but I'm like, that thing is so cool.

And I was like, I want to catch it right then and there.

Did you try to convince Mark to come back and do another show Steel It Fishing?

You know, our steelhead fishery doesn't need any help with promotion.

Just for fun.

No cameras.

Oh, no cameras.

You know, he, uh, I, I didn't, you know, he was out here for, or to, to do two projects.

One of which was recovery beyond program.

I think I told you about that.

Oh, I didn't know he was involved with that.

Well, he was, he's filming the doc documentary of the program, which is, I'm, my apologies.

I might butcher it, but I'll summarize it.

But basically, folks that are recovering from addiction of different types.

The idea is like, let's get them hooked into fly fishing and help give them kind of a mode to recover from addiction.

And we got this wonderful friend of ours, Mark Perry, that kind of teed this up.

And so, yeah, a group of a dozen people in the program came out on Saturday and then Noah Meyer ran kind of a, it was supposed to be a casual class.

It sure was a casual class but noah is such a consummate professional he ran him through like a whole intro to fish fly fishing program did a great job i got the most wonderful email from from mark and you know it did a fantastic job and then yes some of the folks caught their first fish on a fly rod that afternoon which as you know wade fishing on this river to catch your first fishing a fly rod is not that this is not the easiest venue to do that no i suggest most people's first day fly fishing on their own without a guide you don't catch anything no and they didn't they didn't have a guide they had a couple of guides that had kind of been through the program that came back to volunteer at us they had some mentoring but i think it was largely a divide and conquer effort i wasn't i wasn't here for it but it was kind of a divide and conquer so So they filmed the documentary, kind of a documentary of that.

Do you know where people could find that?

Well, it'll eventually...

I haven't looked to see, you know, if Recovery Beyond has like a website or how they're going to utilize the media, but the show we filmed will air on the new Fly Fisher at some point, but I think it'll probably wind up on the new Fly Fisher.

Cool.

You know, they got a, they got a big channel.

I'm sure there's podcast listeners that currently follow them, but yeah.

So it was a, it was a great, excuse me, a great couple of days of fishing.

Yeah, really had a great time.

Had some good, had some really good fishing.

I'm like, part of me is like, I think the fishing was a little too good.

You know, like we're conscientious of how we put pressure on the river.

We like to educate folks and show what we have.

Cause I think that people who view it get joy from not only seeing the media, but they get inspired to go fish, which I think is an avenue for a healthy lifestyle.

As long as we're taking really good care of the fish and we have quick, clean, ethical catch and release values.

I don't think we're hurting, hurting the river, but at the same time, Mark was like, hi, you know, how do you guys promote nationally?

I'm like, dude, like, we don't, man.

We're the local ski hill.

We like short lift lines, you know?

So, um, it just, you know, just the human nature.

I think like generally people, when they do travel a long ways, go trial fishing, like they typically end up other places, you know?

Yeah.

I think that's okay.

I wouldn't stop somebody from getting on an airplane to come visit us.

We've got guests that do.

Right.

You know, Kenny G, shout out, flying up from Nevada on the regular, got trips.

We love you, Kenny.

But we've got a handful of guests that they like.

I mean, I fished a lot of places at the end of the day.

I love the Yakima.

I love how the Yakima River is structured.

I think we have 70 miles of it to choose from.

But yeah, if I were getting on an airplane, I'm probably going to South America.

And frankly, this is not a pitch for booking South America with us.

Eric is our travel manager.

But yeah, the airfare is expensive, but like the, like, especially in Argentina, like your, your lodge stays and lodge packages and stuff costs what it goes to Montana.

I mean, like if you're going to go do a, it's actually a lot cheaper.

Yeah.

So there are a lot of places if you're going to get on an airplane and go a week of fishing.

Now, if you're going to, if you live in the Northwest, you want to go to a couple of kick-ass days of fishing, man, come visit us.

We'd love to, we'd love to help you out.

What do you got for concluding tips?

Dress warm?

Yeah, I mean.

Hey, give me your, I need to be a better interviewer.

Oh, okay.

Eric, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about clothing systems and tips for cold weather fishing.

And I'd like to start with gloves.

so today i wore these they're we don't sell them they're very inexpensive bought them at buy mart yesterday actually just like they're they're like a kiss box glove from sims you like the neoprene i well so you know yeah well so i just is it a completely fingerless glove no no they're waterproof they're not the kiss box mitt okay so i just wore those basically a sims kiss box just cheapo version because i i forgot to like i saved those nice ones like you gave me a pair of kiss box like i saved those for the click attack when it's really cold yeah so i just have those so i can leave my boat right so i just had those to mess around with the boat when it's frozen in the morning you know take the plugs out break a little ice but no gloves during the day fishing you know it's warm enough you know your your hands get wet touch the anchor rope it's okay yeah so you wear gloves when you got work to do and, but I can't really do anything with gloves.

You know, I can't do anything with gloves.

I mean, if it's when we get really cold, then, then yeah, you need some gloves for, you know, warming your hands up and then fishing, or you, you know, have a glove system that you can fish in, but you don't need gloves right now.

I don't think, but yeah, I mean, I.

So as far as my clothing.

Yeah.

We'll have to do a separate podcast, honestly, on proper layering because, man.

You know, when I started to experiment with Squala clothing, you're kind of testing like, hey, is this something we want to like carry?

It's a new brand, blah, blah, blah.

I, you know, talking to Kevin Sloan at Squala, I was like, man, there is a science to moisture management and proper layering.

And being a backcountry hunter, I'd always paid attention to it.

I'd paid more attention to it.

Literally when your life is on the line, if you had to spend a night out in the woods, you know, like in the mountains, the way we hunt.

And so I've always paid a lot of attention to it with my hunting gear, but like I, fishing, I never paid as much attention to it.

And then learning about like how squalor builds their layering systems to manage moisture and temperature, you know, moist, keeping moisture off your skin and outside your layers and shells.

And breathability is a huge deal you know so that you don't have sweat against your body but we got to do a different podcast we definitely should because we both i mean we both kind of nerd out on that like it would be fun but yeah but i guess i really like this time of year i mean i'm still just wearing a waiting pant and a sun shirt and then i wear like a fleece and then a puffy just yeah the puffy is obviously super mobile as soon as you dig into your mid layers It's a pain in the ass to layer and unlayer.

And it's nice, like, right now, like, the next five days, I mean, it's not going to rain.

Like, we know it's not going to rain here, so you don't need a rain jacket.

I mean, there's one in my boat.

It just lives there, you know, but it's not going to rain, so that's kind of nice.

Dude, I got this Grundon's rain jacket.

It's a nice Gore-Tex one.

It's not like commercial fishing Grundon's that I leave under the seat of my boat.

And, God, I love that freaking thing when it gets windy.

The portal?

No, it's lighter than that.

Is it called the black one?

No, it's lighter.

It's lighter than that.

We don't sell it at the store.

But, God, I love that jacket when it gets windy.

It's nice to have a really good windbreaker at your disposal.

I like it because it's super packable, and I just throw it on for windbreak.

But yeah, I'll add two cents on gloves.

Yeah.

I, I, I have, I have a very short and passionate love affair with various gloves at various times.

I will fall in love with a glove and I think I've got the whole fishing glove system figured out and then I'll find something else and I'm, you know, I'll move on.

I don't think that there's a really like one glove that works for everybody.

I think the only thing I'll say about gloves is almost a must have for fishing gloves is a set of wool half finger gloves because you can actually tie stuff and your hands are going to get wet and then having two sets of gloves.

Like for a day of fishing in cold weather, just plan one of them is going to get wet.

And if the wool ones get wet, they'll usually keep me warm, you know, warm enough still.

Nothing beats wool.

If wool was invented today as a synthetic, it would be all we used.

Wool is still an amazing material.

But generally, I like a fold-over mitt, you know, like a, I mean, what do we have, Sims?

I mean, like, I don't care what the brand is.

Sims Freestone, yeah.

Dude, Reddington used to make one.

I don't know if they still, we probably still sell it if they do.

But I got a pair of Reddington fold-over mitts that are half fingers that I really like.

And I'll wear those while I'm like just doing stuff.

And then a set of wool half fingers or like if I was going to be wearing gloves while fishing.

I don't like the stupid latex gloves thing.

You wear latex gloves.

You do, don't you?

I've seen that.

That is.

Yeah.

I mean, when it's nasty.

Yeah, I'm wearing, I'm wearing not latex gloves.

You want to get the...

Nitrile.

You want to get the nitrile mechanic style ones.

So they're, they're tough.

They don't break, right?

So like the, the, the cheaper ones that, that are just horrible that break, like, yeah, those are horrible.

But you get a good pair of nitrile gloves, like...

Like you go to an auto shop, like an O'Reilly's or that type store, you can get these ones.

And usually they're a bright color or some people like the black ones, right?

You take those off to tie everything.

No, you tie your flies.

You tie flies on with those things.

Yeah.

Now, I mean, maybe, I think pretty much everyone can.

Yeah.

As long as you get the right size, right?

Like get the right size.

So that your fingertips are nice and tight.

Yeah.

And you're saying you have to have the quality ones because then the tips don't get abraded?

Yeah, because as soon as the tips start to break, then the tip gets stuck on there and stuff.

Yeah, they're not going to break.

They're textured, so you have grip.

And then the second part to that is they're so thin, right?

You can put them in a mitten and warm your hands up.

You can wear Kispyox.

All right, I got another.

I sense it.

I got a crush on these gloves now.

All right.

They're worth it.

I mean, when it's nasty.

I've tried the stupid latex, the surgical gloves, and I just don't like the micro trash.

They work to keep your hands dry for a while.

Yeah.

I just don't like the micro trash.

I just can't stand it, you know, going.

Cause I think if I was doing that a lot, I'm going to go through a few of those sets of gloves a day.

And I feel wasteful.

And I mean, you're throwing away at the end of the day.

I mean, you're, even with the nice ones.

Yeah.

You're getting rid of them at the end of the day.

But if you have the nice ones, you're only going to use one per day.

I guess it's no different than burning through some tippet or anything else or, you know, But that's when it's, that's when it's like, that's when it's painful cold.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

So, dude, I'm going to bum a set of those off you.

But yeah, I think two sets of gloves, there's lots of different options, but just plan on your first set of gloves getting wet and it's just inevitably that will happen, you know, at some point during the day.

Anyway.

Yeah.

Any other tips before we close our out for today?

Yeah.

Worry about watching football on Sunday.

Go fishing.

Go fishing, man.

I have not watched a single Seahawks game all year, but I understand they're not playing too bad.

Go Mariners.

Go Mariners.

I haven't watched a single Mariners game either, but I'm going to watch the Mariners win game three of the ALCS tonight.

Here we go.

I love those Mariners.

Okay, everybody.

Thanks for listening.

Appreciate it.

We'll catch you next week.