Hello everyone, and welcome back to Moving Right Along, a Muppet Movie podcast brought to you by toughpigs.com.

It's the podcast where we watch Muppet Treasure Island 2 minutes at a time and talk about it a lot.

I'm your host, Anthony Strand.

And I'm your other host, Ryan Rowe.

And today we are joined by a return guest, a delightful person.

Guest introduce yourself please.

My name's Cami G and I'm here to say Mr.

Holland's Opus is a major A plus.

This is Cam Garrity.

I am a puppeteer and a graphic designer, and my favorite movie is Mr.

Holland's Opus, which Anthony Strand had opened quite some beef with many episodes back now.

At this point.

I remember driving up the the street to my work and thinking, I'm so glad I'm coming on this podcast to be able to record with a rap and defend Mr.

Glenn Holland.

So I, so we, we really should clear the air.

I I I haven't seen that movie since 7th grade like.

Fair enough it.

It might be great.

We watched it in my music class in middle school.

And that's not that's never the best environment to see any movie.

No, and it's a long movie so I can't imagine.

Yeah, it was like 4 classes or something.

I mean, it's wow.

I think, yeah, I think anyone who works in education, it's like a quintessential teacher movie.

So it's, I mean, especially for you, Like I, I, it's, it's one of those I re watch every September just because it feels like it feels like the start of school.

And, and Roz is actually a lot more into inspirational teacher movies than I am.

It's like a thing we've discussed often throughout our marriage.

I think that must be a big part of it is what is your what is your level of tolerance for that, that sub genre or even genre unto itself sub movie?

Yeah, yeah.

And we've, we've been, I think I told you this, Ryan, I've been working my way through Peter Weir's filmography and I've never seen all of Dead Poets Society.

I've never seen it.

And we have it.

We have it on tape.

I'm looking right at it.

And I just, I haven't done it yet.

I haven't done it, you know.

I want to say that's one of the better ones.

Sure.

I mean, we're usually usually knows what he's doing.

No, no, not a knock on Steven Herrick, the director of Mr.

Holland's Opus, who made Bill and Ted.

He made The Mighty Ducks.

Is that right?

That is, yes.

I'm not surprised that you know who directed Mr.

Holland's opus.

I only know it because Bill and Ted was canonically my favorite movie at one point.

So it was like the first Bill and Ted movie.

And so it's like Stephen Herrick, of course, the famous director of Bill and Ted.

But he didn't come back for Bogus Journey, huh?

Did not come back for Bogus Journey, no.

Well, getting getting back to this podcast, the last time I was on, I did not have a letter box to count.

I now do and Mr.

Holland's Opus is in my my top four along with Follow That Bird, which I also mentioned as as being a a favorite Muppet movie to contrast this Muppet movie that I'm honored to come in and talk about.

Awesome.

All right.

Well, welcome as always, Cam.

It is always wonderful to have you on the program and you are joining us today to discuss minutes 87 and 88 of Muppet Treasure Island.

We really are getting close to the end in these minutes.

The Muppets and the pirates continue to have sword fights and gunplay or swordplay and gunfights depending on how you look at it.

So we start with Miss Piggy squealing with worry as Silver has a gun drawn on her.

That's kind of what we start Piggies doing and I think squealing is a is a good word for what she's doing.

I know that sounds like a pun.

I mean it's Miss Piggy, but yes that is the sound she's making I think qualifies as a squeal.

Yeah, and then Kermit calls Silver out by name.

He says silver and then he does his famous Boingy boingy flip jump.

Well then.

Before that, though, there this pose that he strikes.

I just, I mean, we've talked a lot about this movie being aware of and paying tribute to old adventure movies.

And I just love that shot where he's standing on the rock and he sort of does this, like flourish and pulls out his sword.

And also thinking about how many.

Puppeteers.

Was that like 4 puppeteers maybe?

Yeah, at least.

And yeah, actually, you say he looks like Errol Flynn in the stage directions of the June 1st, 1994 draft of the screenplay.

It specifically says he strikes a pose like Errol Flynn.

Well.

Right, 'cause that's what he was doing.

Yeah, I just, I just watched Robin Hood again, so.

Oh, I'm happy to tell you I just checked out Robin Hood from the library so I will be watching it for the first time finally.

Oh, oh, man.

My, my, my filmography club in a discord that I'm in, Michael Curtis is our is our filmography of the month.

So we just did Robin Hood.

I'm so excited to hear what you think.

And anyways, yeah.

So then Kermit, he strikes that pose and then he does that, as I said, that famous flip jump that is from all the trailers and TV commercials for this movie.

We got Kermit.

He does you, you, you listeners, you likely know what I'm talking about.

But he does 1 jump with a flip, lands another jump with a flip, 1/3 jump with two flips.

I was gonna say double somersaults.

Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

But the whole time he is making worried noises as though he was Wembley Fraggle Which?

I don't know if you hear those as worried noises.

He's very like.

I just hear them as like, I don't know, the noises that you like, like noises that an Olympic athlete might make when they're doing acrobatics, like just the noises that that come out of a human naturally.

When they're doing.

Something very yeah, like.

Yeah, it also read to me as something that was probably like 80 yard after.

After the yeah.

Oh, definitely.

Like they were, they were so focused on getting those, those jumps on a blue screen or whatever that it was just like, OK, Steve, let's get you in the sound booth and we'll, we'll do, we'll do the recording later.

Yeah, and actors.

Actors who play humans on screen often comment on how that's one of the hardest parts of the job when they act in an action movie is going back later and recording all the just the, the wild sounds for when they're doing fights or, you know, jumping off of things or falling off of things.

They have to go in a recording studio and go, yeah, yeah.

So that that must be what they did here.

Now.

Now we skipped over and maybe and apologies if this has come up in previous minutes, but have you guys talked about Kermit's tattoo?

I don't remember, but we do get a really good look at it here.

I don't think we have, but yeah.

Please share your thoughts on Kermit's tattoo.

Well, it's just so funny to me that like in the, you know, it's obviously Kermit with a, a tattoo of, of Miss Piggy, but the, the logistics of it looks like they just embroidered a Kermit puppet, which is so, so silly to me.

And it also like makes me wonder.

This is where my like puppet building, you know, puppet Wrangler brain comes in and thinking like, I wonder if the Kermit puppet had that the whole time or not.

Like it.

I I never really thought about it until watching it in in this context, but it made me want to go back and watch the whole movie to see if there's ever a hint of it or if it was kind of just for the scene.

That's a really good question.

Yeah, I I have not noticed it but.

No same.

Yeah, I he's been pretty well covered, I think most of the movie so, and that's funny that if if they embroidered it, I guess that would be an effective way to do it and make sure that we can see it.

Yeah, and I wonder too if it's something that still exists, like if there's a.

That's a good question.

A Kermit body in storage somewhere, or if they just did it quickly enough that you know that they snipped it, snipped it away and and just continued to use the.

The normal body just pulled it off.

Yeah, Yeah.

I'm trying to think of other examples of tattooed Muppets and the, the only thing I'm thinking of is Lydia, the tattooed lady on the Muppet Show, which we've heard basically just Jim Henson.

Drew, those tattoos was just on Sharpie.

Yeah.

Essentially so.

Did did one of the tattoos in Muppets from Space?

Did one of the rats in Muppets from Space have a tattoo?

One of the one of the I.

Think so.

Well, that seems likely.

In Muppet Stick Manhattan.

Tattoo Tattooy.

Yeah, that might be what I'm thinking of, yeah.

That looks like it was just drawn on, I think so, yeah.

I guess there's different ways they can do it depending on what the muppet I guess what color the Muppet is and what material it's made of.

Right.

Right.

But back in this movie, Kermit then does the raddest thing he does in this entire movie, which is fling himself directly towards Long John and knock the pistol out of his hand, out of Long John's hand with his.

Yeah, which are rules.

That's great.

That's action hero.

That's Errol Flynn.

Like, that is, that is absolutely the adventures of Robin Hood or Captain Blood.

Captain Blood?

Really.

We've been waiting for Kermit to be fun to watch.

I mean, since Piggy showed up in this movie, Kermit has been fun to watch.

But like, this is really like, yeah, like, go Kermit.

You know you're cheering for him throughout this whole sequence.

Yes, that is a delight.

Yeah.

And then?

And his wig never falls off this whole scene.

That was embroidered on too.

Oh, must have.

Been.

Yeah, right.

That would make sense.

And then the movie decides to immediately undercut it because then Kermit swings his sword around like a toddler for a very long time, while Tim Curry looks aghast like Margaret DuMont and does nothing.

But that's funny.

It's not it's, it's awful.

It's it's.

Years, because it's still a a funny muppet movie from Kermit doing the action thing to like he still thinks he's doing the action thing, but the eventually it becomes like he's just swinging the sword around and Tim Curry does this great take.

Like what?

Like what's up with this guy?

So why does why does so long John, who I feel has truly has been like an effective villain until this point in the story, he he truly becomes like a an annoyed Dowager at this?

Like why does he just stand there and do like, oh, oh, oh, oh, he's just doing this face.

Like I can't believe though, the indecency, like it's just, it's, it's just.

Like little reasons to make me laugh and to annoy you.

I just I.

That's this whole movie I truly.

Don't get it.

Like I mean, maybe it's not.

No, I I do think Margaret DuMont is the best comparison like.

Yes, and you love when Margaret DuMont does that in Marx.

Brothers movies, but I don't expect Margaret DuMont to murder anyone.

Like there's like, what if she did?

What if in just one Marx furnish movie, Margaret Dumas was murdering people?

What if she What if she murdered Groucho?

What if he could?

What if he could see her right now bending over the stove, and then she throws him in it?

She.

Oh yeah.

So I think that this moment again, as I watched it, and it's, it's hard 'cause, you know, I, I, I've obviously seen this movie plenty, but I'm trying to, you know, analyze just these, these two minutes.

And Tim Curry is doing so much with his facial expressions that it's almost hard to track exactly like what he's feeling because he goes through so many emotions.

Because in some moments he's looking kind of like confused and a little pissed off.

Maybe there's also a moment where it kind of feels like like this wasn't in the the fight choreography.

And then there yet another moment that I kind of wrote down was that like there, there are a few frames where it kind of does look like he's doing a good job at acting like he's outnumbered by Kermit.

Like, despite his giant size advantage, Like if you were the size of Kermit and someone Tim Curry sized had a giant sword, like that's that's the end of the fight, right?

But there are a couple moments where Tim Curry really does look like he is the Goliath against Kermit's David.

But I, I think it all happens so fast and there's so much of just like sword swinging on Kermit's part, like the moment almost goes on a little too long.

Like it it it you need some some tailoring to the scene in my opinion.

Yeah, I mean, I, I do think that is my real problem with it is that it feels like Kermit just like Flip, truly flips his sword around like a toddler for so long.

And that's the joke.

Like, like, I'm not saying like that it looks bad.

I'm saying the joke is that Kermit is just flipping his sword around.

That's not all he does, though, because there's the whole bit where.

He slices up individual buttons, yeah.

Long John's coat and cutting off his sleeve, cutting off the corner of his hat.

And then Kermit is just.

He gets so confident he thinks he can just keep doing it.

And.

It right and Tim Curry just stands that Tim Curry just stands there like Polly Holiday and Gremlins and looks horrified.

I will say as someone who was once a toddler watching this movie, I loved this moment in the movie like and I had my toy like samurai sword.

I never had a a pirate sword, but I had a a samurai sword from a a fair and I used to do this scene all the freaking time like I love doing every re enacting this.

So like it did its job right.

Like we're we're complaining about it now, but like it's it's fun.

Yeah.

Sure.

OK.

All right.

I, I was wondering though, and so you guys are, are more versed in, in movie, especially when it comes to the pirate movies, then I like I, I'm lacking in this vocabulary, but is the coat dismantling a reference to something 'cause the only thing it's ever reminded me of is in scenes like in military movies where they're like stripping, stripping like the stripping rank off of people.

And it's, it's not doing enough to like really like fully reference that in my opinion.

But that's the only thing that I can think of in terms of like a visual storytelling vocabulary that this could be, other than just Kermit being silly and ruining Tim Curry's costume.

Right.

Yeah.

And, and I don't know anything specifically.

I mean, it feels like like Bugs Bunny used to do this kind of stuff, right?

To like Elmer Fudd or something, right.

He'll like, he'll like remove his one button at a time from his, from his outfit or whatever, right.

Until and until Elmer's in his long Johns or whatever.

Right.

Yeah, Long John.

He's in this.

Long, John.

But yeah, I don't, I don't know any, anything specific.

That's a good question, listeners right in if you, if you know something.

Yeah, please.

Specific.

And we should, we should go back because I did skip Kermit saying why don't you pick on somebody your own size, huh?

Which is, of course, a joke because they're not the same size.

And then Tim Curry laughs at this for like a full 5 seconds.

And what I love about it is that he plays it like Long John thinks it's genuinely fun.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, but yeah.

So then they then Kermit flips around, slice, slice.

He's making these, making these humming noises the whole time.

Kermit's like.

When he's cutting the buttons off.

Yeah, that's true.

That is better.

Yeah.

So then he, you know, it's kind of it's, you know what it is about the.

It feels more like Ernie to me.

It feels like.

Yeah.

It feels more like Ernie's just like walking around and I'm going to do himself.

I don't know.

It doesn't.

I don't know, whatever.

I'm also I'm just being a bit.

Of yeah, and also is a little bit of, and not that this was ever a character that Steve performed, but it reminds me of like in Menomena when he's just scatting and like doing his own shape.

And.

Doing something that he should not be doing.

Yeah, exactly.

Just watching him, yeah.

Yeah, when the schnauzer just, like, nodding at him, waiting for him, right.

Yeah.

But yeah.

So.

So then, as we said, Long John is.

And like, like you said, Ryan, I think, I guess the joke is that Long John has realized he's been a Muppet movie and it's not as serious business as he thought it was.

Yeah, pretty much.

Or whatever.

But I don't know.

I mean, Doc Hopper, I don't know, whatever.

It doesn't need to be the same movie.

You're right, who cares?

Whatever, nothing matters.

And then Kermit says not bad for an amphibian, which is also in all the all the ads.

I feel like that was a that was a trailer line, but it the fact that it was in the trailer obscures the fact that it means nothing and isn't funny.

I OK, I'm glad you said this, Anthony, because I wrote down in my notes that I still don't know what this line means.

I.

Mean this.

Is a very like, yeah, the the the Karma was doing a lot of jokes like this in the 90s, just like referring to himself as a frog or an amphibian.

Therefore, that is a joke.

Right.

Well, and and earlier in this same movie, in a script by the same guys, Piggy says I'm a pig, I need commitment, which also doesn't mean anything.

Yeah.

So I think that was just they were like, if we reference the species, that's the joke.

They can just say what they are.

And I mean, these characters have always done that, But this one, this one does definitely feel like, oh, he has to.

Kermit has to just speak a line in this moment.

So it doesn't really matter what he says.

Yeah, I I wrote down that the the formula for Muppets in the 90s was delightful, silly puppetry punctuated with a line that reminds you that they're an animal.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But but Speaking of animals, did you guys notice in the background at the same part where Kermit's saying not bad for an amphibian, that there's some kind of live animal loose in the background?

A real live animal.

I think so it it moves around too naturally to be.

It's at the 46 second mark of just.

Like Munchkin hanging themselves.

I it's actually it's actually the ghost of Ted Danson's cardboard cut out.

That's right.

It looks like like a little Oh yeah or something.

And then later on you could see it again and I don't know, I cannot tell what it is, it's too blurry in the background.

But if anybody knows hit me up in the discord.

Yeah, I'm trying to think if we've ever heard anything about there being live animals on the set.

I don't know.

I mean, we saw chickens in the town, right?

Still in Bristol, but that's like a completely different location.

Yeah, it looks like some kind of quadruped, but I I don't know.

And it's not the elephant from earlier, because that would be very obvious.

Definitely not.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

What if it was a tiny elephant?

The elephant just got Really.

Small.

It'd be adorable, yeah.

So next in the movie, though, we cut to some rats who are cheering Smollett.

Smollett.

He's our man.

If he can't do it, no one can.

And I tried to research the origin of this like cheer, because obviously it's a very well known cheer.

And all I could find is that it's kind of too generic to track because it's not, it's not tied to like any individual team.

You know, there's no, there's no like clear point where it was first used kind of so.

Maybe it just kind of came with the rise of cheerleading and general and like college football when that first became popular, maybe.

Right, right.

And but we should note this is one of at least two references to this in Disney Pictures from the 90s.

Because in Aladdin, the Genie memorably cheers Jafar.

Jafar.

He's our man.

If he can't do it, great.

Yeah, I was thinking that.

Which rules?

Love that.

I don't remember if this is before or after, but Kermit says ha ha Silver and I never been sure if that is a deliberate reference to The Lone Ranger saying hi O Silver to his horse whose name is.

Silver it it.

It might, very well might be.

Practically is, yeah.

But Kermit just keeps swinging.

He's still doing it.

It's like a it's like a screensaver.

It just never stops.

And then Long John finally just gets disgusted and stops and says, excuse me in a disgusted manner, which is very funny.

And this causes Kermit to say pardon, and then his sword slips from his hand, flying across the crowd and pinning Jacques Roach to a wall.

Yeah, that's poor guy.

He now he has all, he's all.

His arms are pinned by starfish and now he has a sword right between his antennae.

Yeah.

And then Sam looks disappointed, puts his head in his, puts his head in, head in his hand, and then he hits Polly.

We get this moment of like Sam hitting Polly.

It's a good thing as puppeteer had a monitor.

Yeah, right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think Polly has just started to revive again.

And then, yeah, Sam just smacks them again.

But then Kermit reminds us he's a frog again.

And I actually like this line better.

He says I'm a frog, you know, slippery hands, because it actually makes sense.

It has something to do with.

It does.

And did either of you, like I did, do a web search to confirm whether frogs have slippery hands?

No.

Do they?

They do yes, and the reason is because frogs skin is coated with mucus and that is gross.

Gross.

I, I was wondering because I don't know about you guys, but I all I ever remember is anytime anyone would drop anything in the 90s, you would say Butterfingers.

And I don't know if that had anything to do with the candy bar, but like this is such a 90s coded movie that I was almost expecting the the line to go just a another way to to Butterfingers.

But.

Oh yeah.

I would assume the phrase butterfingers predates the candy bar, but I.

Don't.

I would imagine so.

Yeah, I don't know where the phrase.

Came from in the first place.

I didn't check.

I mean, I guess if you had butter on your fingers you would drop things so.

Yeah, you remember when The Simpsons were in those commercials?

That was good.

Nobody better lay a finger on my Butterfinger.

And it was, and Otto was like the main guy.

I feel like it was Bart and Otto.

It was the classic Bart Otto team.

Do you mind just going back?

And you may have already talked about Jacques Roach before, but was he played by Bill Beretta?

I believe he is Bill, except when he's singing in Cabin Fever.

It's Jerry.

He's doing the the square.

He's like the square dance collar.

That's right, that's right.

I just always remember thinking that he was like a proto Pepe like.

Well, well, there's that other guy in Cabin Fever, that guy with red, the guy who says.

I'd like to get my hand on whoever.

And that's that's a different puppet, but that's Bill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just.

That sounds almost just like Pepe.

Yeah, I I think I was like again when I was watching this as a kid, like I knew enough that like Muppets kind of changed over time and just thinking like, Oh, well, that's a, you know, crustacean of sorts with four arms.

That kind of sound like.

I remember thinking like I wonder if that evolved into to Pepe but.

Sure.

And, and, and I, I've said this before, but I call him Jacques Roche 'cause that was that character's name on the Jim Antonow where he had a, where he had a French cooking segment.

And it was, that was Steve Whitmire.

That was Steve on the gym.

That it's his voice in my head.

He he had a line of of a scene or two ago where he told Gonzo that he was going to make cheese out of him.

But I don't I can't remember which performer it was.

Yeah, I don't remember.

Let's see.

I'm going to check the wiki and see if it says.

Maybe he'll be one of the here at 17 Muppets that.

Would be great.

It's Muppet Wiki says the Roach also appeared as a pirate in Muppet Treasure Island.

Here he was performed by Bill Beretta.

However, for his brief line in the cabin fever number, Jerry Nelson did his scene.

OK, good.

There you go.

There you go.

Thanks, Muppet Wiki.

Thanks once again.

Yeah, but to know Long John is in fact completely back to being a cruel and capable villain.

He has recovered from his bout of annoyance and disbelief, and he he realizes now that he has the upper hand, and he holds his sword under Kermit's chin while chuckling cruelly.

And Kermit, who has been committing some acts of violence recently in this picture, tries to weasel his way out of it.

He says, I never really believed that violence solved anything anyway.

And Long John disagrees.

Violence, man.

Violence man.

What's that for me?

And Kermit said it.

I.

Jim Oh, it's from this.

It's from Saturday night, right?

Yeah, so it's the Jim Henson character in the movie Saturday Night when when Garrett Morris makes a joke about an act of violence.

And the Jim Henson character is like violence, man.

Because he's a hippie, so he hates violence.

He's he's just, yeah, the guy who made the Wilkins commercials where characters got shot in the face, hates violence.

Yeah, you're saying that he should have fired a cannon at Garrett Moore?

He should have, yes.

He should have fired a cannon.

Now, what do you think about violence?

So.

But anyway, so long, John says.

Really.

Allow me to disagree, Captain.

And then you guys know that thing where in a movie you can only see what's in camera range because Long John is looking right?

Yeah, Long John is looking right at Captain Smollett.

So he had no idea that unlike Doc Hopper, Captain Smollett has lots of friends because Jim steps into frame and says kill Captain Smollett and you'll have to kill me.

And then we pull back.

Gonzo says kill Jim and you'll have to kill me.

Fozzie says kill Gonzo and you'll have to kill me and Mr.

Does Fozzie save me and Mr.

Bimbo?

He doesn't right he.

Just no.

It's just me.

He just says me, but then Rizzo says kill Squared Trelani and Mr.

Bimbo and you'll have to negotiate strenuously.

Same, Rizzo.

Same.

It's a very good line delivery by Steve.

Yeah, yeah.

Is is this like I am Spartacus reference by chance or is it just this is what happens at the end of a family movie?

I think it's just like general like we're all together, right?

Like I'm I'm standing by his side.

Yeah, we're all.

Banding together because because Spartacus, it's specifically like they are all volunteering to take his place.

You know it's.

Fair enough.

You know they are all volunteering to be the one who is gruesome, not not like let's all be crucified.

Which is not like O'Brien ends, right?

Another example of this, and the first thing that comes to mind, is an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I think it's when Tara's family is coming and they're trying to take her away, and all the other characters are like, if you're going to do that, you're going to have to go through me.

Yep, and future Muppet costar Amy Adams plays Tara's cousin in that episode.

It's true, yes.

Oh wow.

Yeah, can we talk about the off putting paradox of muppet chests?

Sure.

Please.

So I, you know, most of these characters that we're seeing, well, about half the characters that we're seeing usually don't wear any clothes, at most maybe a, a necktie or something.

But it is so strange to see because they're wearing shirts that are so low cut.

It feels so strange to see like their chest hair or like, you know, that that deep V Yeah, we're.

Talking, we're talking about like Gonzo Fozzie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're all wearing these sort of like really stereotypical pirate shirts, like the white.

Yeah, it's like very Seinfeld puffy shirt kind of, which is a great stage picture.

But it's just as I was looking at it, you know, I had the the freeze frame on it and I was just like, it looks so weird to see.

Like, you know, it's it's almost like a Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park level of like shirt reveal.

And it's not revealing anything that we don't regularly see.

But there's just something.

So I guess this is most cartoon characters that are naked until they're not, but.

So I'm trying to remember now, Fozzie, Fozzie's not wearing a tie in this scene, but he is wearing all these shirts that's hanging open.

So that is different because usually most of the time when we see Fozzie, he's wearing a very large necktie, a neck, a tie.

And so this is covering.

Up his chest.

So yeah, this is.

Weird.

It's, well, it's it's, it's funny because it's almost like exactly the inverse of what is normally covered.

Yes, like the the exposed area normally has a shirt over it.

Yeah, he's a bear.

Bear right?

But he's not OK.

But yeah, like Kermit and Sam, it's just, you know, I guess Gonzo and Rizzo usually have have shirts on.

But even even still, it's there is something very like, oh, this is strange in a way that shouldn't be strange.

And Piggy's wearing one of these shirts too, but I guess hers isn't hanging open quite as much.

Right, and fortunately so.

And Speaking of Piggy, she then walks up with the whole the whole hog tribe behind her and she says going somewhere, John, John.

And this is the only time she calls him John John.

And then it would have been pretty funny.

Am I right if Silver had started counting the pigs like 1718?

Yes.

John.

John.

Would have been fantastic.

I.

Could have called him Jonathan.

I always like when Piggy calls.

Oh, John Denver.

The the full version of their first name.

Are they calling Dom Deluise Dominic?

Yeah, I recall him.

Gene Kelly, Eugene.

That's my favorite.

That's my favorite one.

I also enjoyed that one of the the pigs, the right most pig in the frame is Piggy's dad from Muppet Classic Theatre.

Oh, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nice little Easter egg there, obviously with tusks and feathers, but yeah.

Oh, yeah, there he is.

Hey, look at him.

Fun.

He's like daughter you.

You're incompetent.

Andy and Randy can do whatever they want.

That's what this movie needed.

Andy and Randy Pig.

Yeah.

They're just, hey, they're just about to come back.

Yeah, that's.

Right.

Yeah, I guess we probably would have noticed if they were in this movie as members of the tribe.

I guess they're.

Not in here, yeah.

This Do you know why they didn't join the tribe, Ryan?

Well, I mean the early versions of Andy and Randy.

Oh yeah, but do you know why they didn't join the tribe?

No.

Why?

Because that job is too hard.

Of course so.

Then, knowing that he is vastly outnumbered, Long John turns to Jim and says, Well, Mr.

Hawkins, it seems your little family has come together against me.

And he hands Jim his sword, and it looks like they're all about to celebrate, but they don't, because that's where we end.

Yeah.

And that's what Muppet movies are all about, Charlie Brown.

Jim looks a little bit surprised, and he kind of glances at The Muppets as if to be like, is this really happening?

OK, I guess I'm taking the sword.

Yeah, yeah.

There is also a nice little bit of visual storytelling that happens that he doesn't use Long John's sword against him.

Like the sword that he then raises up higher against Long John is still his own.

And it's kind of this nice.

Like I'm going to stay a good guy.

Even though there's been this kind of will, they won't will he won't he of kind of coming to the dark side of of Long John.

Yeah, no, that's a good point.

So that's the end.

And that that brings us down to the end of the clip.

But any other final thoughts about these two minutes before we go?

Cam, I'll start with you.

Just I, I think the rats are the best part of any Muppet movie.

And that is very true in this movie.

Further evidence by the the cheerleaders and spectators.

But no, it's, it's like I said this, this movie doesn't do it for me anymore.

But I just remember loving how silly this this scene was as a kid, and I'm very glad that I got to talk about these two minutes.

Sure.

Awesome.

All right, Ryan, any other thoughts before we go?

Just from the June 1st, 1994 draft of the screenplay, when Long John has Captain Smollett cornered with his sword.

Long John says I should have gullied you that night years ago I boarded your ship off Madagascar and Smollett is shocked and says you I lost my best friend that night.

And Long John says, and I lost my best leg.

Now that's a funny.

But also earlier in the draft, there was a scene where Smollett said that he gave up his life of going adventuring on the sea because on his last voyage, Jim's father died.

So I think this is meant to tell us that, yeah, Jim's father died in the same attack when Long John and his other, you know, fellow pirates boarded Smollett's ship and.

Interesting.

Like they're all tied together that way, but.

Well, and and perhaps implies that Long John killed Jim's father, which is I'm glad.

I'm glad they didn't do that.

Yeah, that seems like too much.

Part of that, right?

And I, I, I don't know so far removed from that earlier scene in the movie.

I don't know if we all would have remembered it anyway if they had included that.

Yeah, as well.

Is that back story true to the to Treasure Island though?

I don't think so.

Well, no, because Jim's dad is not a sailor in the book, so yeah.

That's right, I've never read the book so.

Yeah, I don't know.

A lot of people like it more than I do, so I mean, I'm not going to tell you not to read it.

You know, it's a classic.

I'm not going to consider to be like waste of time, but all right.

I stopped now, Anthony.

No, I don't want to I.

Don't just.

I don't want to be a grump.

I don't, I really don't.

I feel like I've said this over and over.

I, I spent 5, Four Seasons of this podcast being like, what was it great?

Everything's great.

And then now I'm just like, no.

No, and I'm trying I'm.

Trying to entertain me.

How dare they?

You don't know.

No, I know it's fine.

It's fun.

But I got a couple questions for you though, Cam.

Yes.

And the first one is what's your history with Moppet Treasure Island?

So I don't remember the first time that I saw this movie.

I it must have been at home on VHS tape because I remember seeing movies in the theater that came out before this movie, and I also remember vividly watching Muppets Tonight on the first night that it premiered, which I think is in the same like within a month of this movie.

And you're what about 5 in in 1996?

Yes, five years old and already a die hard Muppet fan.

So, so yeah.

So I remember really liking this movie as as a kid, it was never my my favorite.

I also, I don't know if this is true for you guys, but like Christmas Carol does such a relentless job of letting you know that it's based off of a book.

And also, like, you can't escape the Christmas season without seeing lots of different adaptations of A Christmas Carol, but I never knew that Treasure Island was anything but a Muppet thing.

Sure, it's just, it's just the Muppet Pirate.

Yeah, exactly.

Which I think one could argue that it would have probably been better if it was just a Muppet pirate movie for a lot of different reasons, but that's besides the point.

But I do also remember just speaking to my my history with the movie.

Are you guys familiar with the making of Muppet Treasure Island?

It was a Disney Channel special.

Especially, yeah, we haven't really talked about it much on the season, I guess, but yeah.

So I just remember, and this is another reason why I don't think I saw this movie because I I vividly remember specifically the part of that special where Fred Buckholes, I think is how you pronounce his name.

Who's the prop master for the Muppet Workshop talking about like how you they needed like a tin Smith to come and make small lanterns and small cups for all the, that were all Muppet sized and thinking that that was so cool.

And like, I was already interested in in puppets and like could never understand why, you know, for instance, a coffee mug that I would try to get my puppet to hold would look so ridiculous for them.

And it's like, oh, you need a small sized thing for a puppet 'cause they're 'cause they're smaller.

So being able to get that insight into how puppets on on film we're done was like that was a cool early education in that way.

And I also, I will just say, and again, part of the reason why I picked these these minutes was again, I've I still don't know what the not bad for an amphibian line means or meant.

But as someone who performed a lot with a Kermit puppet all through like grade school and and high school, whenever I had my Kermit puppet do anything impressive or say a funny joke or just do just about anything, I just remember that line being in like the trailer and thinking, well, that has to mean something.

So I would always have Kermit say, not bad for an amphibian, like just about anytime he did anything.

So it's it's an endearing line.

That's such a kid thing to do to just pick up on something like that and repeat it without understanding it.

Yeah, especially, like I said, especially because it was in the trailer so much.

It was just like like, thank you for making me a part of this.

It was bigger.

Like I saw that more times, way more times than I ever saw those movies.

But I knew that that moment so.

Right, awesome.

And then our other question is, where do you rank it among the Muppet movies?

I'm on record as saying it's my least favorite of them.

I I don't know how true that is.

I will say this podcast, as I've been listening all season, has given me a much greater appreciation for it.

I'm so I'm so glad to hear.

I'm so relieved to hear.

That and well, and especially I'll I'll say, you know, a couple of weeks ago you had Leslie and Bill on talking about it and especially hearing the two of them speak of it was just so like not that there's ever been any doubt that there's a lot of love and care and attention that goes goes into these movies, but there's just something so heartening about hearing how how passionate people were about it.

So it's it's hard to say that it's my my least favorite of the Muppet movies because they're first of all, there's only eight of them.

So to say it's my eighth favorite anything is not an an indictment by any stretch of the imagination.

And I also think, and this will probably get me in some hot water in our our community, but like, I don't know, some of the recent Muppet stuff that's come out that I know a lot of fans have enjoyed.

Like it's not any better than this movie.

Like, I don't mean that in a mean way, but like I'd watch this a dozen times before I ever had to watch Haunted Mansion again.

And I think some some of that has to do with just how how things are made.

Like I love practical effects in Muppet movies and things that aren't green screen and like things that happened in camera.

And we'll probably never get that again just because of how movies in general are made.

Yeah.

But so I I think I'll still say that it's it's still last.

But I feel worse about saying that than I did a year ago.

When?

We last spoke, sure.

Awesome.

Last with a bullet.

Yes.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I I totally get that.

I too have found more to appreciate this season.

So I'm glad.

I'm glad to hear that, that that's how you feel.

Definitely.

So listeners, that is it.

We are done for this week.

You can always find toughpigs.com on the Internet.

Facebook what threads?

Blue sky I think.

I think, yeah, Threads, but Blue Sky, Man, everybody's joining Blue Sky right now, so that's the place to be.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

It's on Twitter.

It's finally happening.

Finally.

You can become a patron of ours at Patreon.

You can e-mail us at Moving Right Along at toughpigs.com.

You can follow Ryan on Blue Sky at Me, Ryan Row and me on Blue Sky at Durwood Clapper.

You can follow Ryan on letterboxed at Movies are neat and you can follow me on letterboxed at Zeppo Marxist Cam.

Thank you once again for joining us and tell our listeners where they can find you and your delightful.

Work well thank you guys so much for having me.

I I love the show and it's such a pleasure to always be able to to speak with you all.

You can find me just about anywhere at Cam Garrity.

My website's there.

I'm probably most active on on Instagram.

Hit me up on on letterbox.

I don't have a blue sky right now, but if the trend continues that I'd, I start a new social media profile every time I come on, moving right along.

Maybe maybe by the next time I'll, I'll have a blue sky account.

So yeah, find, find me there.

Check out my illustrations and, and graphic design and and puppetry stuff.

Always happy to share.

All right, awesome.

And oh, and I, I did not yet say thank you to Morgan Davey for designing our logo.

So, and I did not say thank you to the listeners for giving us that positive review they're always talking about.

Everybody's talking about it.

They're always talking about it.

So we'll be back next week with another episode.

Join us then, goodbye.

Not bad for three humans.