All eyes are on Minnesota as Americans watch what has been unfolding in an effort called Operation Metro Surge.

Now in its second month, two people have been killed by federal immigration agents, and the tactics of ICE are being met with outrage and disbelief by not only protesters in Minneapolis, but by people all across the country.

It's against this backdrop that Governor Josh Shapiro has written a book called Where We Keep the Light.

In it, he explores an increase in political violence, including his own experience of the Governor's mansion, the polarization that is rupturing America, and the future of the Democratic Party.

I asked him what he hopes readers will conclude about where he stands politically and his ambitions for twenty twenty eight.

I'm really excited to see you.

I don't think i've talked to you since COVID, and I've been desperate to have a conversation with you.

So thank you for making time for me in this you put your book out in the world.

I'm grateful, Thank you.

I'm glad to get the chance to have a conversation.

I remember we had so much fun.

I know it seems incongruous, but we had a lot of fun talk during COVID, so looking forward to this conversation.

So, Governor Shapiro, as you well know, books like this are generally put out in the world for candidates to introduce themselves to a national audience before they announced they're perhaps running for president.

So before we get to that, what do you hope readers conclude about stand politically after they finish Where We Keep the Light.

I'm sure you're going to ask me about this, and you'll probably be skeptical when I say this, and maybe even smirk a little bit.

But when I set out to write this book, it really was not to make a political point.

It was because I saw this real clear division between what's happening in the media, particularly on social media, what most of the dialogue and our politics is about, which is typically darkness and division.

And then when I was out in communities every day, I was seeing an entirely different side of America here in Pennsylvania, good people doing good things, lifting up their communities, and as I write in the book, spreading light.

And then about halfway or so through writing this book, my family and I were attacked at the Governor's residence.

I'm sure we'll talk about it, but that was a moment where darkness fell upon our family and our commonwealth, and there was this moment where you could feel like you were going to be consumed by that darkness.

Except what I saw in the days after that, really in the hours after that, were a whole lot of people from all different walks of life, all different religions, coming together and praying for us, lifting us up, strengthening us, and bringing the kind of light to our family that up helping us heal.

And so in many ways, that became the exclamation point on this book and my desire to do it.

I think the story of America, as I write at the end of the book, is the story of ordinary Americans doing extraordinary things and constantly striving for something a little bit better, a little more, just a little more free.

I'm not suggesting people should not understand that there is darkness out there.

I'm sure we'll talk about Minnesota and all the other challenges that are going on right now.

There are many challenges, and there's a lot of reasons to feel down.

But just simply turning off the news and pulling the covers over your head doesn't make the darkness go away.

And I hope this book encourages people to go seek light and find the goodness in their communities.

An effort, if you will, to try to appeal to people's better angels, for sure, Abraham Lincoln said, but you're right, there is a lot of darkness, and of course I want to jump right into that.

This past Saturday, in Minneapolis, federal immigration agents fatally shot thirty seven year old alex Pretty, an ICU nurse at the city's VA Hospital.

He is the second person to be fatally shot and killed in the city during ongoing protests against a ramped up immigration enforcement effort by the Trump administration.

Does this feel to you like a dangerous inflection point or watershed moment?

How would you assess what's happening in Minneapolis?

I believe that it is the primary responsibility of any governor, mayor president to keep people safe.

That is the foundational and fundamental responsibility we all have.

Part of the way you keep people safe is by building trust between law enforcement and the community that they police and protect.

What the federal government under Donald Trump and Jdvan and Christy nome I've done is eviscerate that trust and leave people less safe and brought more chaos into the streets of Minneapolis.

I think it is critically important that this mission be terminated immediately and there'd be a full investigation into the killing of Renee Good and Alex Pretty.

You know, Katie you mentioned at the top.

I think the last time we spoke was during COVID and I was the Attorney General.

Then I was the chief law enforcement officer of this commonwealth.

I sent agents out in the field routinely, and I will tell you that the practices that CBP and ICE are engaged in communities do not meet baseline proper policing procedures.

From the manner in which they are masked, to the manner in which they are stopping people simply because they have an accent or their skin is a different color, to the way in which they're discharging their weapons in the community.

This is not proper policing.

It's eviscerating the trust that exists.

And then the leadership at the top who's put them on this mission.

President Trump, Vice President Vance and others are shamefully gaslighting the community, attacking Alex Pretty after their own agents claimed his life, forcing parents who are grieving to have to come out and defend their son in death because of the actions by these federal officials.

This is not okay.

This is outside the bounds of the law.

I would argue, violates the tenth Amendment of our Constitution, and it needs to end.

This mission needs to be terminated.

Well, Governor, that's all well and good, but I guess, to borrow a phrase, it seems appropriate given what's happening across the country.

There seems to be a snowballs chance in hell that ice is going to stop this operation, that the proper investigations are going to commence, And you know, quite frankly, it sounds almost no for you to insist upon that, because I think that's what everyone has been saying, but nothing's being done.

May I just very respectfully push back on that lease, And I know you asked the question in a respectful way and your right to push me on it.

I think number one, the state attorney general has the power to conduct an investigation and should conduct the investigation, and should they find that federal officials obstructed justice by impacting the crime scene, that is a crime and they should be charged.

There's nothing stopping state officials from conducting a full investigation.

That's point number one.

Right, But they don't have access, as you know, Governor, to a lot of the information from the crime scene.

And they have said Keith Ellison, the Attorney General of Minnesota, has said they're going to do an investigation.

But it seems to me, and you're an attorney, I'm not the federal government is really impeding their ability to do just that.

And that is a crime.

That is a crime.

If you're obstructing justice, that a crime.

I believe the state has the power to conduct an investigation and should.

I think the second point about the mission is also something that I would respectfully push back on.

We have seen courts curtail the power of this president when it comes to the National Guard as an example.

I believe that there is a similar tenth Amendment argument that can be made.

I believe they're making it in a court of Minnesota today or tomorrow, and it is important that that be pursued.

Third, I believe that this week the Congress of the United States can stop the funding for ICE's mission in Minnesota, and I would like to see them do that.

So I do not believe that all is hopeless.

I believe that there is an opportunity to do this.

I would hope that the federal government under Donald Trump would participate in a responsible approach here.

I think you are right to suggest that they won't.

But it does not mean that there are others that don't have power in this process, and I believe they need to execute that power and use it to protect the community.

Many Democrats have apparently voted not to defund ice, So what if Congress does his step in.

I know one changed her mind after the killing of alex Pretty but are there any other alternatives?

Are there any other things that can be done?

And the Trump administration, quite frankly, has been known to ignore court orders.

Well, again, I think if court orders, you have funding.

I think what's also clear is that Donald Trump is afraid of public opinion turning on him.

And what is clear is that reasonable people in America are seeing with their own eyes the lawlessness and the violation of people's fundamental constitutional rights, and they don't like it.

It's not just elected leaders who are speaking up.

Community leaders are speaking up, athletes are speaking up.

People in public life who don't engage in politics typically are speaking up.

I happen to think that Coach Steve Kerr of the of the Golden State Warriors spoke so beautifully about this yesterday.

I think when those voices speak up, that begins to shape public opinion.

And Donald Trump, who puts on this sort of veneer of strength, is really, you know, quite a weak human being deep down inside.

I think he is susceptible to you know, the shift in public opinion.

And this is a moment where I think the public needs to speak up.

So between our courts, between the Congress and the funding, and between the public speaking up, I think that we can shape a change in Minnesota, and I think we need to.

And when do you think this might happen?

You know, this has been going on for a while now.

I think every day this is going on, the temperature increases, the anger intensifies, and I'm curious when you see potentially this being resolved.

Well again, I believe the lawyers are in court today in Minnesota.

I don't want to kind of backseat drive on their case, but certainly what I'd be doing is pushing this Tenth Amendment argument.

And if I prevailed, I would immediately ask for a restraining order or an injunction to stop the federal government from being on the streets of Minnesota, to effectively remove them, and as I said at the top in response to your question, terminate this mission.

I think that is the first step.

The second step will come on I believe it's Friday when the Congress of the United States votes on this funding package, and if they don't have the funding in order to carry out the mission in Minnesota, then it is going to force them to change the mission if they want to receive funding from Congress.

That's another leverage point.

What if they do get the funding.

I know you keep responding to my suggestions with what if I get that this is a very unpredictable.

Seems like it's a real possibility.

I'm not just pulling this out of thin air.

No it is, and I'm not trying to be argument in any way.

I'm just suggesting to you, in response to your questions about there's nothing we can do, there are things that we can do, And I think the public has a role to play to continue to express their public outrage by what they're seeing.

I think the Congress has a role to play, and I think the courts have a role to play, and I think those are three really powerful tools.

Governor Shapiro, I'm sure that you've thought about or gained out.

What if an operation like Metro Surge came to your state of Pennsylvania and an influx of ICE agents came to Philadelphia or Pittsburgh and operated the way they're doing in Minneapolis and Saint Paul.

Is there anything you would have done differently or you would do differently if that were to happen.

I'm certainly not going to Monday morning quarterback Governor Walls, or Mayor Fry or the police commissioner there.

Here's what I will tell you about Pennsylvania.

We have long been preparing for the federal government deploying soldiers or deploying federal agents to the streets of our commonwealth against the wishes of me and against the wishes of local authorities.

And Katie Well, I want to answer all of your questions here.

I would respectfully submit that I'm not going to get into the specifics of what our plans would be, but I can tell you that we will do everything in our power to keep Pennsylvanian safe and free from that type of intrusion.

As I said at the top fundamental responsibility for a governor, president, mayor is to keep people safe in their communities.

And this is unprecedented to have a federal government doing things that undermine that trust between law enforcement and the community and make people less safe.

We will do everything in our power to push back on it.

We have ideas on how to do that, some that have been deployed in other cities and states and some that have not yet been deployed and were prepared to do just that should this come to Pennsylvania.

Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric.

You know, if you've been following me on social media, you know I love to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Inagarten.

So I started a free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and kitchen mustaves.

Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash good Taste.

That's k A T I E C O U r I c dot com slash good Taste.

I promise your taste buds will be happy you did this past weekend.

Attorney General Pam BONDI sent a letter to Tim Wallas, the Minnesota governor, blaming him other Democratic elected officials for allowing quote unquote lawlessness.

In the letter, she pressed him to share state records on Medicaid and food and Nutrition service programs, repeal migrant sanctuary policies, and turn voter rolls over to the DOJ to quote confirm that Minnesota's voter registration practices complied with federal law.

Do you believe that this letter supports speculation that the Trump administration's deployment of ICE is part of the quest to quote unquote take control over the upcoming midterm elections.

Yeah, and I think it's frankly less about my opinion and more about what is written in black and white on that sheet of paper.

The federal government has been trying to get access to your private personal information on our voter roles, and at least here in Pennsylvania, I've stood up to stop them.

Let me explain.

The federal government demanded that I turn over all of the voter information for Pennsylvania voters, roughly nine million people, and Katie, for those who are not familiar, it is a matter of public record, say that Katie Kirk is registered this way, voted in these elections.

Right, that's a matter of public record.

Any political party can gain access to that information.

But beneath that, there's a lot of private personal information about Katie Kerrieshin's at Kitty Kirk, about Jane Doe, and that is more personal information that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has a legal responsibility to protect, a legal responsibility.

I can't turn that over.

And so we responded to their demand by saying, no, Number one, I've got a legal responsibility to protect it.

Number two, I don't trust you with it, which is what we made clear.

And the Trump administration turned around and sued us to compel us to turn over that information.

That seems to me to be a similar argument that they've made to Governor Wallace in Minnesota.

I'm not an expert on Minus Minesota law, but I can just speak to what's happening here in our commonwealth.

And so I do not trust them with it, and I've got a legal responsibility to protect it.

And I do believe that the administration in Washington wants to use those voter lists and use people's private personal information for bad purposes, for nefarious purposes, and they want to use it in part to undermine the midterms.

And again this is not hyperbole.

Donald Trump has been on the ballot three times in Pennsylvania over the last decade, and each and every time they've taken steps to undermine our elections, and we've had free and safe and secure elections each time.

In fact, I think one of the last times you and I spoke again, I was the attorney general of Pennsylvania in the twenty twenty election.

Trump and his allies sued me forty three different times to try and undermine our free and fair, safe and secure election.

They went on forty three, I went forty three and zero.

We defended our voters here in Pennsylvania, voters who voted for Donald Trump well and voters who voted for the other candidates.

And to me, that is the point here.

We're going to continue to have a free and fair and safe and secure election.

But the Trump administration their allies are going to try and do everything in their power to undermine that, and we're going to stand up to that.

I'm curious, Governor, when you say they're going to try to do nefarious things, can you game that out for me?

What would they try to do with the information they're trying to get.

I think what they may try to do is take legal eligible voters and make up phony arguments as to why they should not be permitted to vote.

I think they may use it to target people with federal officials and intimidate them before the election.

I think they may use it in a way that allows them to shape where they want to send federal troops to intimidate people come election time.

There's a whole host of things they can do.

And I know this may sound somewhat outlandish to people, but again, this is an administration Washington that has been acting outside the bounds of the law, who are unwilling to follow the rule of law, and who have proven to us in election after election that they are not bound by norms and they are not bound by the law, and they will do anything to undermine people's right to vote if they're not voting for the candidates that they prefer.

Getting back to your book, as you mentioned, you open it with the recounting of the firebombing of the governor's residence while you and your family slept.

This happened on April thirteenth of last year.

You've said that you only understood the danger you faced as a public figure theoretically before this attack took place, and I know that you have said this attack changed you.

Yeah, how so?

Well, first off, we thank god that none of us were physically hurt.

And at a time where you have rising political violence against the present and I States and Butler against Charlie Kirk against Speaker Hortman and others where they were killed or where they were injured in many ways, we feel blessed that we were not physically harmed.

I think for us, we understood sadly that there were risks associated with being in public life, particularly when you're in public life and speak your mind and you're open about who you are.

But to me, I always felt a sense of comfort knowing that I had this privilege of traveling around with Pennsylvania State troopers and having a level of protection that most Americans don't receive.

I felt fortunate to have that.

I think all of that was really pierced that evening when someone who was trying to kill me broke into our home and threw Molotov cocktails around and tried to break through the door that led to where my family, and I were sleeping holding a weapon that he said he was going to use to kill me.

Had a number of talks as a family in those hours and days thereafter, and to be honest with you, Katie, it was less about me being governor more just trying to be a good dad and husband and answer my kids questions.

And you know, as a parent, you just want to assure your kids that they're safe.

And for the first time in my life, it felt that I couldn't as a dad, look my kids in the eye and guarantee that.

And so we had to work through that.

And so I would say that even though we were not physically harmed, emotionally there are scars and we've had to work through it.

But I think as a family, we all understood and came to this conclusion that bailing on this life of service, walking away from the people who I took an oath of office to protect, not continuing, you know, to pursue this work that I find great purpose in, would mean that those who bring violence in our communities one and remember, Katie, the goal of political violence is not just to harm the one individual that they are seeking a harm.

Melissa Horton and Charlie Kirk, Donald Trump, myself.

It's really to try and inflict damage on a broader community, to make people wonder whether they're safe, to make people wonder whether they can still pray the way they would or if they're in more danger because of how they look when they walk down the street.

And to me, that is insidious and we have to speak out against that.

And one of the most important things I can do is stay in this and not allow those destructive voices to drive me out of this or to scare my family.

In Ioway, you.

Write in the book that it took President Trump a week to call you after the attack, and during that call he said something about running that will strike a lot of readers as odd.

Can you tell us what he said to you?

Yeah, And look, it took him a week, but he called, and I appreciate the fact that he called.

And I said that in the book.

And when he called the first time, it was from a number I didn't have in my phones, I didn't know who it was.

I didn't answer it.

I listened to his voicemail, and a couple minutes later called him right back, and we spent the first couple of minutes of the call where he was checking in on me and my family, which I appreciated very much, and letting me know that all federal resources would be brought to bear to make sure that the person who did this would be held to account, which that person was.

That person is behind bars for up to fifty years.

And then after a couple of minutes, he kind of moved into other topics, tariffs and other things, and I frankly use as an opportunity to talk about some of the needs in my state and a big issue involving steel workers in my state.

And we had quite a productive conversation where, by the way, ultimately the issue we talked about was resolved and resolved favorably to Pennsylvania and in a way that I had hoped.

Toward the end of the call, he began musing aloud about political violence, how dangerous it is to be a president, and he was complete with statistics on the number of presidents who have been assassinated or where there's been an attempted assassination, and just said it's a very dangerous thing.

Don't run.

And I sort of chuckled and was president, that's not my plans, that's not what I'm doing.

But I appreciate your sentiments, and you know, he was complimentary in my work, and you know, we agreed to stay in touch.

So it was strange, certainly, But again I appreciate the fact that he called, as I appreciate the fact that President Obama and President Biden, President Clinton and others from this country and world leaders called to check in on us.

Again, as I said a moment ago, the act of political violence maybe targeted at one individual, in this case, my family, but it really impacts broader swaths of people, and I think, you know, broughtder swaths of people feel their own sense of vulnerability from an attack like that.

But it does seem odd that he used the opportunity to encouraging not to pursue the presidency.

Again, it was free wielding conversation.

I wrote about it in the book.

I thought it was a bit strange, but he was saying what was on his mind.

You are one of this country's most prominent Jewish democrats, and you proudly celebrate your faith openly.

The person who fire bombed your house was motivated by anti Semitism.

At the same time, the broader climate around Israel and Gaza has made conversations about Jewish identity feel more fraught than ever.

You've been criticized by progressives for being an unapologetic Zionist, for censoring pro Palestinian protesters at the University of Pennsylvania and expanding the definition of anti Semitism to include certain rhetoric aimed at delegitimizing the state of Israel.

I.

Should point out, though, Governor, that you have criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in no uncertain terms.

But this laundry list may cause some people to wonder if you are somehow out of step with the Democratic Party.

Polls show that Democratic voters are increasingly sympathetic to Palestinians.

Even national Jewish Democrats like JB.

Pritzker and Ram Emmanuel, both considered possible candidates in twenty twenty eight, have publicly challenged Israeli policy, and in July, a record twenty seven Senate Democrats, a majority of the caucus, supported a pair of resolutions calling for the blocking of weapons transfers to israel I.

Know you have been Adamcgovernor that your views will not be influenced by polling, But do you feel that you have been two pro Israel in some cases, and that whether you like it or not, this may hurt you politically.

Okay, it's a lot to unpack there, so let me let me track go through point by point, and if I missed something inadvertently, certainly come back to me.

On that.

I think that there are two conversations that need to be had and you sort of blended both of them together in this question, one about anti Semitism and the other about Middle East policy.

First, on anti Semitism, I view that as a very in many ways black and white issue.

There is no room in our society for anti semitism.

There's no room in our society for hatred or bigotry of any form, and I routinely call on people to condemn it.

And I think anti Semitism is a problem on the political left and the political right, and it shouldn't be hard for anyone to come out and condemn it, period, full stop, end of sentence.

The second piece of what you said has to do with policy in the Middle East, and on that I have been crystal clear, by the way, for years, even before October seventh, that I thought Benjamin Natanyahho was isolating Israel the world community making Israel less safe.

October seventh is an example of Israel being less safe under Nittanyahu's leadership, and that the long term prospects of Israel being able to create stability and peace in the region were being undermined by Nittanyahu.

I have also, for years even before October seventh, and continue to feel this way to this day, believe in a two state solution.

That Palestinians need to have their own homeland secured next to Israel, in a place where they are not governed by Hamas, which is a terrorist organization, but instead governed by a government of their choosing that recognizes Israel's right to exist, renounces terror, and where Palistinian children grow up where they feel like they have a future ahead of them, where they can be anything that they want to be.

That is my hope, and I realize that at this moment in time that feels very very far way, but that is my hope.

That is what I would like to see.

I've been consistent on these issues.

The other thing I've been consistent about throughout my entire political career is I don't put my finger to the wind and look at what the polls say and just react to the polls.

I tell people what I believe.

I stand up for what I believe.

In the final thing I'd like to say about your question, you used a word that I would respectfully object to, and I don't think it was your word.

You were citing others this notion that I somehow support censoring those who protest in this country, even taking a position that I disagree with.

Understand that I am someone who has quite literally gone to court and someone who speaks every day about the need to protect civil discourse and protect the right to peacefully protest, and that is something I support on college campuses and all across our communities.

Here's what I don't support.

I don't support you using the veneer of prot test to assault a kid because they're a Jew.

I don't believe using the veneer of protest to stop a Jewish kid from going to class simply because he's Jewish, sure to block him from getting back to his dorm because he supports Israel.

That's not okay, and that is something that I have been outspoken about and I certainly don't apologize for that.

What I said at the top of this answer about anti Semitism being a black and white issue, I stand by, but I also would recognize that policy in the Middle East is super complicated, it's really nuanced, and it is anything but black and white.

This is an issue that has confounded the world for hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of years, and it's something we've got to find ways to work through together.

So I'm happy to have a longer conversation about my views on policy.

I'm happy to have a conversation about my views on anti Semitism, Islamophobia, hatred, bigotry of all forms.

My point, too, is I think they're two very distinct conversations and need to be held as such.

Something tells me you'll have plenty of opportunities Governor in the future to elaborate and talk more about this.

But you also you're making a lot of headlines because there's been a sort of tip for tat thing going on with Kamala Harris's book and now your book.

You write about the vetting process for consideration to be Vice President Harris's running mate, during which you were asked if you'd ever been an agent for the Israeli government or had communicated with undercover Israeli operatives.

You took umbrage at that, did you not?

Yes, But I wouldn't characterize as a tit for tat.

I mean, I wrote a few pages and a much longer book about how I arrived at making a decision that I didn't want to serve as or be considered as vice president to Vice President Harris, and I wrote about how I went through that decision making process, and yes, during that process, I was asked that question about an hour before I walked into a meeting with the Vice President, about whether or not you know I was some kind of double agent for Israel or had some dual loyalty toward Israel, and whether I had communicated ever with some undercover operative.

I mean, I could tell you as a former Attorney General, Katie, I sent people undercover all the time for different operations.

Someone who's doing their job undercover, how the hell would you know you're talking to them?

So I felt that the questions were loaded.

I didn't appreciate them.

But I also write in the book about how I understood why the vetters felt that they needed to ask lots of different questions.

And so I've got no ill will toward anyone.

I was just simply explaining what the process was like for me, and you know throughout that process and anyone who's ever been through it would probably say something similar.

It is an honor to be considered.

It's also a strange situation because, unlike every other aspect of my life, which is very public, I answer questions to folks like you all the time, this is one of those situations where you're really not permitted to say any things.

You go through the process, and so this was my first opportunity to explain what happened from my perspective and to show how that, like many other decisions throughout my career that I write about in this book, what sort of process I went through to make those judgments.

Former Biden Chief of Staff Ron Klain said that asking a high level appointee if they have ever been a foreign agent is a standard vetting question, citing Standard Form eighty six, which national security officials fill out for vetting and includes questions about foreign government interactions.

So did you feel like because you are Jewish you were being singled out in any way, shape or form or held to a higher center through those questions?

Because I know that you also wrote Governor that you are asked to either apologize or recant some of the statements you had made in the past.

They had every right to ask me whatever they wanted.

And I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

I'm not, you know, labeling anyone's conduct or behavior or use a certain way.

I'm just telling you how I feel.

And this was a process I went through one of many decision making processes throughout my career, and I wanted to explain, you know, why I felt the way I felt, and how I was able to come to that decision.

In her own book, former Vice President Harris said she worried you would struggle to accept a supporting role, that you wanted to be quote in the room for every decision, and that she felt the need to remind you a vice president isn't a co president.

When you hear that characterization, now of sort of your attitude during the process, what is your response, I.

Thought the Vice President I had a very very candid meeting, and I write about in the book how much I appreciated the candor, and we talked about both the role on a campaign, which was a fairly short period of that conversation.

I think we both understood, you know, what I would be able to bring to the ticket.

Then we had a much longer conversation that was very honest about a role for a vice president in her mind, not necessarily mean specifically, but in her mind what she wanted.

And you know, she made very clear that it was not someone who was going to be in the room, not someone who was going to get to be heard necessarily on issues.

And what I made clear, and I read about this in the book, is that if there was a choice between door A and door B, and she favored Door A and I favored Door B, I just wanted to be able to make the case for door B.

And if she made the choice to go through Dora A, I'd run through a brick wall to effectuate that.

I will say to this day, I appreciate the Vice president's candor about saying what she wanted.

I just have a very different perspective, you know, albeit on a much smaller level.

But I chose a lieutenant governor here in Pennsylvania, someone who's a true partner to me, someone by the way history making lieutenant governor our first black LG in Pennsylvania.

And I believe the nation's youngest LG as well Austin Davis, and you know, we just have a very different relationship.

So the perspective that I came to that discussion with was really different.

But I have no ill will, I have no negaive feelings.

I appreciate her candor very much.

It allowed me to leave that evening, to go back to my family and to make the determination that this was just simply not going to be the right fit, which is why I picked up the phone.

I guess roughly forty eight hours before she made that decision to call an informer that I did not want to be considered.

And again, this is not ill will, and I know use the term tit for tat.

I certainly don't feel that it is that way.

And I appreciate the chance that I get to share my perspective on things.

And as you well know, after she made that decision to choose Tim Walls, I worked my tail off for both of them in Pennsylvania, across the country and did everything I could.

I wish they would have won.

The country would be far better off had they won that election.

Isn't it annoying though, for you, Governor to have have the rap bee, that you came in sort of overconfident.

People have suggested you were measuring the drapes before a decision was made.

I mean that for me, honestly, that would bug the shit out of me.

You know first off that I mean, that's certainly not an accurate assessment of what transpired.

But that being said, Katie, I have learned in this business, I've learned in life that you can't get a motion, you can't get too high, I can't get too low.

And it was an honor to even be in the room, an honor to be considered and to be in that position, And to this day I'm grateful for it.

If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com.

When you are considering, or people believe you're considering, or you're on a list as a potential presidential candidate, as you've learned very quickly, Governor, you are put under a pretty serious microscope.

And while you're popular in Pennsylvania, I guess some of your fellow Democrats in the state have not been that flattering when they talk about you.

One state official said, you don't want to turn your back on him.

Loyalty is not his strong suit.

Now I need to add to that, this individual still insisted that you'd be a great president.

But I wanted to give you a chance to respond.

Why do you think some of your fellow Democrats apparently have some ambivalence about you?

Do you think at times your ambition gets the better of you?

Because that has been suggested.

Look, I get people will suggest things, People will say things off the record or allegedly say things to you know, to reporters, Katie.

At the end of the day, my job is to deliver for the good people of Pennsylvania.

Where I think, as you'd acknowledge, the people in Pennsylvania are happy with the work we're doing, happy with our ability to get shit done every single day for them, and so I'm not going to concern myself with you know, some unnamed insiders.

You know, frankly, Katie, at the end of the day, if there's a couple of insiders who are upset, but the people that I take an oath of office to serve and protect or please with the work we're doing, I'll take that.

I think anytime you're reform minded, anytime you are doing things not just based on conventional wisdom, you may rub some people the wrong way.

But I'm going to continue to work my tail off every day for the good people of Pennsylvania and deliver for them.

I want to ask you about the Democratic Party writ large.

A lot of soul searching going on in the Democratic Party, as you well, we know it's popularity is an all time low as well.

What do you think Democrats need to do to earn the trust of the American people again, because that, I think is one of the biggest questions facing Democrats today.

I can just tell you what we're doing in the ultimate swing state, the biggest toughest swing state in the entire country.

I think, by the way, maybe one of the things Republicans and Democrats agree on that Pennsylvania is the toughest state and is that swing state.

What we have shown is an ability to bring Democrats and Republicans together.

I've got a divided legislature in Harrisburg and our state capital, and yet we've been able to come together and make historic investments in public education and public safety.

Our economy is growing.

In fact, we have the only economy in the Northeast that's growing in the United States.

We've cut taxes seven times, and we have an eight billion dollars surplus.

We're in a very strong fiscal position.

Our crime rate is down, educational opper tunity is up.

Good things are happening in our state and throughout it all.

Every time I've been on the ballot, we've won by setting a record each time, and so record number of votes each time.

And so the point I'm making here is that the focus to me is not on pontificating or what the political pundits would say.

It's on figuring out ways to bring people together to get stuff done, to make a difference in people's lives.

Now, I'm from a state where we've got sixty seven counties, and roughly fifty eight or so of them, almost sixty of them are rural communities, communities that don't typically vote for Democrats.

I go there, I spend a lot of time there.

I've earned their trust and their support.

I also spend a lot of time in our big cities like Philly and Pittsburgh and suburban communities as well, where folks support the work we're doing.

And no matter how different the terrain is, how different the voter registration is, the folks I talk to every day just kind of want the same few things.

They want a good for their kids and grandkids.

They want a safe community, they want economic opportunity, and they want their freedoms and their liberties protected.

That's what I hear every day, and that's the focus that I have here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and that's what we're going to continue to stay focused on.

Do some of those good people at Pennsylvania.

Are any of them having second thoughts about their support for Donald Trump given what has happened in his first year of his second term.

What are you hearing from voters about that.

I do hear folks expressing second thoughts, and you know, I've heard it around a number of things, But if I can focus on just two of them where it's been most pronounced, I've heard a lot from farmers who are just getting absolutely screwed by these tariffs, and the presidents acknowledge that the tariffs have heard farmers because he put together this bailout fund that a whole lot of our farmers haven't yet seen any money from so the tariffs have really hurt our farmers.

They're actually hurting our domestic manufacturers, even though the president's purported reason for these tariffs were to resure manufacturing, which would be a wonderful thing, but our manufacturers here are getting hurt because of rising prices and shuttered markets.

So I hear a lot about that.

The other thing I've heard a lot about is when the federal government broke its compact on SNAP, of course, is the food Assistants program for those who were low income who are just struggling to make ends.

Me.

That is a compact that existed for I think six or seven decades, never been broken, and it was used as a tool in a political game in Washington, DC.

And there were a whole lot of people, including a majority of SNAP recipients in Pennsylvania, who came from counties that Donald Trump won.

So I think those two issues were too where I'd have folks come over to me, oftentimes folks who voted for Trump and then turned around voted for me as well, and who said, I know, I voted for the guy, I like the guy, but this is really hurting me, and I don't get why he's doing it.

You know, in many ways, I think what you're seeing is Donald Trump is screwing over the very people that put him in that position in the first place, whether it's by cutting Medicaid and shuttering hospitals and rural communities that are so critical, whether it's cutting food assistance, or whether it's these tariffs that are making it harder for our farmers and our rural constituents.

I'm just curious for my own interests.

Are you worried about the president's speech and Davos and the fact that he seems to be wanting to recalibrate a world order and a NATO alliance that has been in place since the end of World War Two?

And what did you think of that speech.

I thought the speech was unhinged.

I think more and more he seems confused each day, and I thought that was an example of a speech where he seemed confused.

He certainly was confusing Iceland and Greenland, but there were other facts as well where I thought he was confused.

I think on the broader piece here, related to foreign policy, there has been a marked shift in American foreign policy under this president.

Rather than trying to be a voice for human rights, a voice for democracy, a voice for freedom, a voice for economic opportunity for Americans all around the globe.

He is instead, I think, limiting America's voice to trying to be a bully in one hemisphere, in seed the other two hemispheres, to Russia and to China, to effectively say, you guys, go do whatever you're going to do over there, leave us alone, and we'll leave you alone.

And here in our hemisphere, we're going to dominate.

How else do you explain the way he bullies Canada, one of our most trusted allies, and calls him the fifty first State, the level of disrespect he showed to former Prime Minister Trudeau and now Prime Minister Carne, or the manner in which he's gone after Greenland, or the way in which he is threatening Latin America in the case of Venezuela, actually operationalizing those threats.

And so what I think we are seeing is a foreign policy that limits America, that actually makes things economically worse off for the American people, and eviscerates many of the alliances we've relied on that have helped guarantee the safety of the United States and so sure.

While it's true that European countries need to pay more in to NATO.

While it's true that other countries need to step up and be a part of some of those efforts that America has led on in recent years or really over the last couple decades, it is also true that we are less safe when you break those alliances and you put us in a position where we're forced to go it alone on all these things.

America has an extraordinary military.

We should all be proud of that.

I certainly am.

But military might alone is not going to ensure the American people's safety.

Diplomacy and alliances are critically important, and what I see under this president is the evisceration of both.

You've been so generous with your time.

I just have a couple more questions.

Getting back to the Democratic Party, it seems to be an existential question what direction this party goes in.

Does it go back to being more centrists and the spirit of Bill Clinton, or does it need to be more progressive in the spirit of Bernie Sanders and AOC.

Where do you fall on that.

I predict you're going to say more centrist.

I would just say that the Democratic Party has some extraordinary leaders right now, and I'm excited for the next generation of leadership and the Democratic Party.

And it is true that that those Democratic leaders are on different parts of the political spectrum.

I would say that I would caution anyone from saying, well, this particular representative or governor, may or what have you, is on this part of the spectrum, and this is on the other.

I don't think that's how the average person thinks about it.

They just want to know that you're on their side, that you're going to take on the powerful and stand up for the people, something I have done throughout my career.

I write about it in this book quite extensively.

They want to know that you're going to get stuff done for them and make their lives a little bit better, whether it means making their healthcare a little more affordable, making their kids school a little bit better, making their streets a little bit safer.

And that's the kind of work that I think is going to define our party going forward.

We are the party of freedom and liberty.

We are the party of standing up against the powerful, not coddling them or not enriching them further.

We are the party that I believe has quite a big tent, and you see that with some of the extra ordinary leaders we have across the board serving in really important positions, whether in Washington or in their states or cities.

So I'm bullish on the future of the Democratic Party.

I'm proud to be one voice in it, and I think we're going to continue to hear other voices shine through.

If all that is true, Governor, that there's so many great leaders, why is the party struggling so much, especially when it stands in such sharp contrast to the Trump administration and Republicans on Capitol Hill.

I actually think our party, particularly in recent months, has really found its footing.

I think what oftentimes people attribute to struggling, and I'm not putting this on you, Katie, but I have heard this from others, is the lack of one particular voice leading the Democratic Party at a time where there is one voice, Donald Trump leading the Republican Party.

And frankly, of course, there's not one person leading our party right now.

There shouldn't be.

I think we have some extraordinary leaders who bring a lot to the table and who are doing really important work both in the federal government in DC and also in the States, and so I think this is an opportunity for our party to be able to hear from a lot of really terrific voices and to cultivate a vision going forward as to all the specific things we will stand for as we head into the next presidential election.

But I would also caution anyone who wants to just simply look ahead to who that person is or what that particular political lane is.

I'd caution anyone from looking past these midterms.

You and I started this conversation an hour or so ago by talking about the threats to our upcoming election because of Donald Trump.

I think the most important election we face are these midterms.

If you want to stop the lawlessness that we are seeing in the streets of Minneapolis and elsewhere, if you want to stop the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of Donald Trump, it starts by winning these midterms, by winning the US House of Representatives, by winning these governors' races.

I think there's thirty six governors races across the country.

By standing up for the rule of law and embracing candidates that do that important work.

And so that's what I'm focused on, is I know many Democrats are, and I think we've got a lot of talented people to help lead us forward.

Are you the kind of guy who would be willing to call balls and strikes against the national democratic establishment if necessary?

I mean, I always have, and I write in this book about times where I've disagreed with the sort of party orthodoxy and where I've respectfully suggested my own way of doing things.

And again, I'm doing it in the toughest state in the country to do it in here in Pennsylvania, and I'm still standing and doing pretty well here, as you acknowledge.

And so it is important, I think, to always speak your mind.

I think it is important to listen to the people you represent and have your views reflect where those folks are in rural, urban, suburban communities.

Democrats, Republicans, independents alike.

I've always tried to do that work, and I'm going to continue to do that work going forward.

Governor Josh Shapiro, thank you for being so generous with your time for talking with me about your new book, Where We Keep the Light, and about the state of play politically in this country and abroad.

We really appreciate your time.

Thank you, Katie.

It's been great to be with you.

Thanks for listening everyone.

If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM on Instagram.

I would love to hear from you.

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