Time is the greatest gift we can give and receive.

As we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers Squib is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary, more time.

The Time Back Campaign celebrates those everyday heroes who are working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping get patients more time to experience key moments like seeing a child learned to ride a bike or a long awaited vacation.

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I understand there's some people that represent very, very blue states.

They have the luxury of just saying we're all gas, no breaks.

But when I represent a place like Pennsylvania, it keeps you honest and now there's another side and trying to find a way forward.

And then let's talk at numbers.

In Pennsylvania.

We had two million, two million people on Snap and around four hundred thousand Pennsylvanians receive those text credits, and now, right now, keeping our government shut down, they're getting neither.

My guest today, Senator John Fetterman, has never exactly fit the mold of a US senator.

He's six foot eight, and he favors hoodies and Jim Schortz over Brooks Brothers suits.

In his new book called Unfettered, Senator Fetterman opens up about his twenty twenty two stroke, his battle with depression, and his remarkable recovery.

But since there's no such thing as a slow news day, we also talked about the end of the government shutdown, a resolution he helped facilitate and one that has elicited a lot of anger from his constituents.

Meanwhile, what were his impressions when he met with Donald Trump at the White House?

Does he regret his unapologetic support of Israel?

How does he feel about the ice raids happening all over the country.

These are some of the topics we covered, but some of the most intimate and emotional parts of our conversation focused on his struggle with depression and his desire to stop anyone facing a similar struggle from making a choice that they can't recover from.

Here's my conversation with Senator John Fetterman.

Thanks so much for including me in your media tour.

I really appreciate it.

Here's your books.

Yeah, I recognize that unfortunate face, but it's thank you for having me on.

Yeah, of course, of course.

Well I was going to start with sort of breaking news and then get to the bull.

Sure, definitely.

Yeah, I mean I know that's been the big story for Yeah, of course, of course.

Senator Fetterman, I know you were among the senators who broke ranks with Democrats to advance the GOP plan to end the shutdown.

Now that isn't a surprise given how staunchly you oppose all government shutdowns and I quote I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever vote to shut our government down, which sounds like a riff of a Taylor Swift song, by the way, So why are you so opposed in general, Senator, to government shutdowns under any circumstance.

Well, I mean, if you have to bring Taylor Swift into it, now, I have to flex that we were born at the same hospital, So maybe that's part of channeling that.

Okay, And now, remember the last time the government was shut down.

That was the Republicans, and we were rightly, very very critical of them because that's effectively holding our government hostage.

And now when we arrived and decided to do that, you know, I just voted to say, I think that's wrong.

You know, we can absolutely want to extend our text credits, but to put forty two million Americans at food insecurity and not pay our military and not pay all of the unions attached by all of this thing, and remind people too, a lot of you are going to be flying and making flying less safe.

That is absolutely the wrong approach to fight for health insurance.

Yeah, I know that that must have been weighing on the minds of the eight Democrats who wanted to come to some conclusion.

How much did the upcoming Thanksgiving holidays way into this?

The majority of Democrats were like, what's the exit ramp?

You know, like, do we want forty two million Americans not even have their food for Thanksgiving or to be able to travel in our nation?

And now, in just the mice in Philadelphia, eighteen out of twenty two air traffic controllers didn't show up to work.

You know, we all have an investment making our flying safe.

And you can want health insurance as I do.

But that means that you can't tax and create that kinds of chaos and that vital part of our economy, but also on a very big part of public safety.

In fact, you have said quote strongly support those tax credits to make healthcare more affordable.

But my understanding is the deal that you agreed to only guarantees a December vote, and even then House Speaker Mike Johnson hasn't agreed to a House vote on the issue, making the chances of an extension increasingly bleak.

So what do you say to those like Bernie Sanders who insists that this vote paves the way for fifteen million people to be thrown off of Medicaid and the likelihood that premiums will double, triple or even quadruple for twenty million Americans.

Well, you know, Bernie should answer why he's okay with putting forty two million Americans to face mass food insecurity, or he can explain to the military why it's okay not to pay them and the tens of millions of American that are going to be flying and are flying.

You know, he can have his priorities, and I share some of those priorities to extend those tax credits, but we have a different we have a different tactic at this point, and there was no guarantee regardless for this because it's all going to come down to Trump and he really has the ability to just change everything for things.

So this idea that there was, it's simple to achieve an ironclad kind of situation that just doesn't exist.

And for me, that's a risk I refuse to take.

And for them, they have a different view.

Where do you put your positioning, Senator in terms of getting these healthcare issues resolved in a way that will not leave so many Americans with much higher premiums or kicked off Medicaid?

Do you think Democrats are in a stronger or weaker position now to prevent those things from happening.

I should say, well, well, this is part of the truth too, that we are party.

My party designed these to expire here.

I mean that was us.

That wasn't the Republican changing that or doing anything.

The Republicans saying we have to negotiate on these things.

And if Republicans want this for their constituents, and it's entirely possible they do want those things, but open up the government and we can have that conversation.

So that's also being straight on the facts.

And it's like that wasn't their plan.

That's the way we designed that when we were in the firm majority, and that was part of the COVID pandemic.

And then I felt like entirely after that election that was a great opportunity to take take that win.

And now it's very clear there's a lot of backlash for voters.

The voters reject chaos.

And now for me, when you're faced with that kind of mad, crazy chaos, well, I think you should respond to order and logic, in respond with our core values.

And that's not putting forty two million Americans for mass food and security or supporting our military.

I mean, today it's Veterans Day, and I think, you know, I think we want to honor them.

In part two, let's pay our military.

That's part of it too.

But my issue is that to attack the kinds of Democrats that happen to have a different view, that doesn't mean we're caving.

It just means like, hey, maybe we have a different way of seeing things right there on the ground, and they can't really describe what their exit ramp is or how they can define it.

So I know, I understand there's some people that represent very very blue states.

I mean it's they have the luxury of just saying we're all gas, no breaks.

But when I represent a place like Pennsylvania, it keeps you honest and now there's another side and trying to find a way forward.

And then let's talk at numbers.

In Pennsylvania.

We had two million, two million people on Snap and around four hundred thousand Pennsylvanians receive those text credits, and now right now, keeping our government shut down, they're getting neither.

You know.

I interviewed Angus King yesterday and he was one of well he is an independent, but he was part of the group that wanted to negotiate a deal to get the government to reopen.

And basically his question was what was the endgame?

How was a negotiation going to happen given the fact that the Republicans weren't budging on this.

What would your message be to Bernie Sanders right now if you could speak to him directly.

Hey, Bernie, okay, Well, I would respond with a question saying, Hey, you're talking to a single mother with three kids and there's nothing on their snap card, you know, tell them that, hey, just hang on, hang on, We got your back.

But we are in a big political battle.

It's like you just have to find a way your way forward.

Let me ask you about the response that you've gotten on social media.

I was reading it yesterday, some of the comments on threads.

One woman wrote, my fifty year old, otherwise healthy husband has cancer.

His treatment costs five hundred and forty seven thousand dollars.

We can't afford that your vote may very well kill my husband.

His life and the lives of thousands of others are in your hands.

So far you're condemning them to death.

Someone else writes, you failed us and no longer deserve to represent us.

Just go home and let us win the fight.

We no longer need cowards around us.

We embraced you when you were sick, donated to your campaign.

You are so ungrateful.

Shame on you.

Another rights when I die, I want John Fetterman to be my pallbearer so he can let me down for the zillientth and final time, because dying is the only way I'll stop being appalled by him and all the knives he plunged into our backs.

Finally, Lydia Russo writes, disgraceful capitulation, Senator, shame on you.

I'm curious to hear your reaction to those comments.

My only reaction is like, my heart breaks, and I'm so sorry that they're in this difficult situation regarding their health.

Absolutely, I'm so sorry to be and then that so regardless, Now, there are many people that are in the middle of this right now, and I'm sorry that they're caught in the middle of this political battle.

They're blaming you though, clearly, Senator for reopening the government and what they seem to believe is giving up the fight for healthcare for people like them.

Any other response, their response is just I'm so sorry that you're in this situation.

And now, for me, I think shutting down our entire government is the appropriate way to achieve health insurance.

And again, it's a tragedy and I'm so sorry that they're in that situation.

Going back to the potential vote on these issues that Senator Thune sort of has given his word on, but Mike Johnson is being a little more slippery.

What would you say to Mike Johnson to support some of the people who are writing these kinds of comments.

I lost the count of how many times I voted to extend those text credits.

I would be the first guy to vote for those kinds of a thing, and I'm not the guy stopping this.

And you know, there's not a single Democrat in the Capital that wouldn't vote to extend those text credits, not a single one.

And now democracy has put us in the minority.

And you know, we don't have a democratic president as well either, So there's a lot of things working against that right now.

And it's not about opening up the government.

It's really about the situation that we are in right now.

And what I can say to Mike Johnson is is like, I, hey, let's do these folks right, you know, because plenty of their constituents are going to be touched by this too, And I do believe if it's going to impact that and they realize that it's bad politics and it's just bad for our nation, then we can find a way forward for these kinds of things.

I know, Senator, you've gotten a reputation for not always quote unquote falling in line with your fellow Democrats, being an independent voice and in your book Unfettered You right, I've drunk deeply of the venom of both the left and the right, and the most poisonous, the bitterest, is from the far left.

Those are strong words.

Tell me why you wrote that and what motivated those comments.

I asked my digital folks, I said, what's the harshest social and they said, oh, absolutely, it's blue Sky, Blue Sky.

It's been my experience.

The right you would say, you know, really, you know, mean things and call me names and that thing.

But what's really emerged on the other side, it's like, hey, I'm rooting for your next stroke, or it sucks that depression didn't win, or I hope your kids, you know, you know, can just witness you know, you die, and all these kinds of things.

People forget that there's a name attached to these things.

So for me, it's it's an indictment on social media.

But what I'm saying, it's been in my experience that it's both difficult, but some of the most personal things are when someone's praying for my death and they want my children to find me there It's like, I think that's a little next level versus, hey, I have happen to disagree with you.

You've said that Donald Trump, in your view, is not an autocrat because his presidency is quote the product of a democratic election.

But history has shown that even leaders who come to power through elections can still govern in anti democratic ways.

So I have to ask, when you consider some of Donald Trump's behaviors and policies, like deploying federal forces to US cities, undermining the Department of Justice, is independence attempting to overturn the twenty twenty election.

Does that not trouble you deeply?

Well?

Of course, I was really the tip of the spear in the twenty twenty election in Pennsylvania where he claimed that it wasn't like a fair, safe election.

Absolutely, I pushed back violently on that, and I don't support many of these things that are happening right now.

I don't never vote for those things.

But I think at this point right now, we are not in an autocracy.

You know, We're in the democracy.

And that's why they were able to shut our government down.

And that doesn't mean that we appreciate what's happening.

And that expression it's not normal, it's like, yes, it isn't normal, but that doesn't mean this is an autocracy right now, and what it does mean that we have a lot of hills that we can choose to die on.

But I think for me, I've just been choosing some of the most difficult ones and that's where I've been and not supporting.

You know, many of these things that are happening.

Do you think that Donald Trump is not conducting himself or not pushing policies though that you would consider to be anti democratic?

What I'm saying as a Democrat with a ninety percent record voting Democrat, that's a fact.

That's not my opinion, that's my number.

Now I'm talking about Donald Trump's some of the things that he's doing.

If you don't believe we're living in an autocracy, would you can see that some of the things that he is doing are clearly anti democratic and also are potentially even unconstitutional.

So for me, it's like, you know, we have a difference here.

It's like if you believe we live in autocracy and I don't, and I think we can both agree that we've asked.

We don't agree with the vest majority of those things that's happened here right now, and I wouldn't do those things.

I wouldn't have made those same kind of decisions for that, and that's that's fine.

Where we are right now, a committed Democrat and we happen to have a different view of these things.

You know.

It's like, I don't call people fascists or Nazis or compare people to Hitler, and I think that's part of why we lost our election last year.

You know, if you call the person that you might vote for, that implies that you must be a fascist or you're trying to destroy our nation.

And I know, and I love with some of those people, and they're not doing any of those things.

So that's really the thing.

So and the vast majority of Americans chose chose that an option that I did not choose, and actually campaigned the entire effectively the year for Harris and Biden after he before he dropped out.

So that's exactly where where we are.

I know that you write about your wife, Giselle, who came to the US as an undocumented immigrant before eventually becoming an American citizen, So I know, Senator you have a front row seat to the process when you think about her story, I wonder how you square that with the way the Trump administration is handling immigration from the ice rage to the broader rhetoric around migrants in this country.

Yeah, well, I think that's why two things must be true, and it's fully compatible.

I remain one of the most pro immigration senator in the entire Senate.

And I also happen to believe it's mass chaos when we have three hundred thousand people showing up at our border every month, and you know, acknowledging that my party did a terrible job on securing our border during the Biden administration.

For me, chaos chaos is that you have these ice raids and targeting, you know, otherwise hardworking migrants.

I don't support those things.

You know, I'm appalled by those things.

But I think also there's significant chaos about we need to have us secure our border.

Shouldn't there be another way to do both of those things in terms of securing the border.

It's my understanding, Senator, and maybe you can clarify it for me and for people watching and listening that there was a bipartisan immigration bill that was really worked out by Publicans and Democrats over the course of many, many months that Donald Trump urged his fellow Republicans not to vote on because he instead wanted to use it as a campaign talking point and to in fact weaponize the whole issue of immigration.

So couldn't a vote have happened that would have maybe provided some solutions for these issues at the border and not had the situation where these ICE agents are racially profiling people, They're separating kids from their families.

ICE agents are driving off with toddlers in the back seats and car seats.

Why didn't the Senate vote on this comprehensive immigration legislation before the campaign?

Well?

I voted for that, all Democrats did, But I also knew that we would get rolled on it, because of course we're going to get rolled on that because that is one of his biggest clubs.

He's not going to hand that over and take that him away.

And he was able to derail all of that because and he wasn't even the president at that time, So that's where we are.

I fully fully expected that there wasn't going to be a bipartisan deal because that is one of his major major things he used to win.

Honestly, I know, and I guess that's why I wonder if it's fair to blame the Biden administration to well, you just did blame the Democrats for not doing a good job at the border, and I understand what you're saying.

At the same time, there was this bipartisan legislation which would have addressed the issue at the border, but Donald Trump wouldn't allow the Republicans to vote for it because he didn't want to give them a win, as you just said.

So it seems to me that to give him credit when he actually was an impediment to getting this ledge passed seems misplaced, if you know what I'm saying.

No, not really, you don't know what I'm saying here.

No, people negotiated a bipartisan deal because the Democrats finally realized, yes, it's a mess there.

And then the population the size of Pittsburgh was showing up at the border every month, every month, and now they were eager, eager to trying to find a deal because they knew we would pay a significant price for the election.

And then I expected that the president would well, actually he wasn't the president at the time.

He controls the party, and it's like, hey, no, no, no way, And that's what happened.

I had a professor at grad school, Alan Simpson, if you can remember.

I remember him.

Yeah, he told me this back in nineteen ninety eight.

And remember he was a Republican, a pro choice Republican from Wyoming.

That's how things have changed.

Regardless.

He said, you're never going to have any significant immigration kinds of a deal because both sides use it and it's too useful for people to have an actual solution right now.

And he said that at that point, over a quarter century ago.

And that's where we were for that, and I voted for it.

I did, but on one vote, and unfortunately more people would have voted for it.

And that's part of where we are.

My point is, Senator, we wouldn't be in this situation if Donald Trump hadn't prevented Republicans from moving this legislation forward.

We wouldn't have ICE agents deployed to all these cities across the country.

We would have solved some of the immigration problems at the border if that legislation had been allowed to pass.

Yeah, legislation that I voted for.

And right, but a solution was at hand.

And yet Donald Trump, because he wanted to use it as a campaign weapon, stopped it from moving forward.

That's all.

That's my understanding.

Absolutely.

In fact, I think he effectively said the same thing.

Yeah, it's like a blame me, blame me.

I mean, I think he's even said that.

In this conversation, we're going to look at the profound support oncologists provide, guiding patients and families through difficult moments while helping give back milestones and key life moments.

Monica, I have had to interact with a number of oncologists during my life.

Can you talk about the support aspect of an oncologist's role.

The role of oncologists is really one that I have so much admiration for people that are stepping into that space because having to stay up to date with that science and matt medicine while retaining your humanity and being able to engage people on that one to one space is something that's a very very special relationship.

In fact, Monica, I read that oncologists may be in a position to have to tell families not great news as many as twenty thousand times over the course of their career.

Isn't that an incredible number to think about?

And the way this human mind works is that we often remember the bad more than that, we remember the good and I think one of the ways that we can support on cologists is by reminding them that they are also there for the positive parts of that cancer journey.

Well, I too, having known many in my sixty eight years, am so appreciative that I have an opportunity to say thank you on behalf of patients everywhere and their families.

It's been an absolute pleasure, Katie, Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Please come and visit us at BMS dot com slash time back and you can learn more there about our commitments oncologists and the time back that they potentially can give to patients.

As we've heard, on don't just treat cancer, They aim to return precious time, helping people savor celebrations big and small, from birthdays to watching a child's baseball game.

Time is the greatest gift we can give and receive.

As we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers SQUIB is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary more time.

The Time Back campaign celebrates those everyday heroes who are working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping get patients more time to experience key moments like seeing a child learned to ride a bike or a long awaited vacation.

As we turn back our clocks, let's pause to thank the doctors who make a difference every day.

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You've been criticized by some in your party for your stepfast support of Israel, and I know that you write in the book that some former staffers turned on you because of it, and they have implied that your support of Israel has to do with your impaired mental health, which you say is not true.

Can you talk about this criticism and the larger split it represents in your party between progressives and moderates.

Well, I don't have anything to comment on those things, but yes, it's absolutely true.

Israel has divided Democrats without a doubt, and I remained an unapologetic supporter of Israel.

And that's where I am and now here we are now actual peace here in the region, and I think that's a profound outcome, and after what Israel was able to achieve.

They were able to break and effectively destroy Hamas Hezbollah as well too.

And now Iran, you know, their nuclear facilities, clearly trying to acquire a nuclear weapon.

And I absolutely supported those strikes as well too.

And now here we are in a position now for real peace, and I think that's a good thing.

And I just call balls and strikes.

It's like I can celebrate those things regardless of who it's coming from.

I'm curious do you have any issue with Benjamin Netanyahu in the response to the October seventh attacks, which killed nearly seventy thousand people, about half of whom are women and children, along with about ninety five hundred people missing and presume debt according to the Gossam Ministry of Health.

I'm just curious if your stepfast support of Israel has ever win when you consider the response to October seventh, which many believe was disproportionate.

Well, what, I believe that the tragedy in Gaza, absolutely, undeniably it was a tragedy.

Now you have a choice, do you blame Israel, which I don't, or I blame Hamas, I blame Iran, and I blame some of those nations in the region that didn't hold Hamas accountable, and you have to pick a side.

I'm absolutely going to pick the democratically elected leader of our ally and that they project and protect the kinds of values that we live and we want in our nation.

And that's a choice, you know, for now too.

If I am going to criticize one side, it's going to be entirely on the people that what they've done on ten seven and that they keep human beings underground for two years.

I've met with them and the nightmares that they've been through as well too.

Absolutely, that's a tragedy.

And now peace and now we can rebuild Gaza, and there's perhaps a better solution.

Now.

Remember, if Hamas has not done what they've done, you know, all of these people would still be alive, and or if they would have chosen a two state solution that President Clinton produced back in nineteen ninety nine.

I had a chance to talk to him at a campaign event that I had with Kamala Harris, and he reminded they were offered ninety six percent and they could pick four percent for Israel and they could have East Jerusalem as the capital, and they would have had a two state solution and they rejected that.

So there's some accountability when when they had a two state solution.

It really the truth there is that they is a one nation solution and that's no Israel and wiping it out.

And also, you know, I yess if you're harsh, I'd be harsh on Iran.

Why are they trying to build a bomb and they've promised to destroy it.

That's one of their organizing principles is to destroy Israel trying to build a nuclear bomb.

I'm going to criticize that before I criticize Israel because they refuse to send on the hostages and to disarm.

That's the way wars operate.

Do you have any solution for bridging the intense divide that this has resulted in for the Democratic Party?

That's difficult.

And I'm convinced that younger voters, you know, they're gone and now they I think I've seen polls where they identify more with Hamas than Israel, and I think that's part of TikTok and social media that created a bubble devoid of history and devoid of a lot of the situation on ground, and most people don't remember or even New that they have an opportunity for a two state solution to build their own nation in peace, but they were strongly rejected that.

Do you think this is irreparable within the party?

I know you talked about it being generational.

Do you think there's any way to find common ground when it comes to the topic of Israel for Democrats in general?

Part of the issue that with some Democrats most of it came from.

Much of it came from is my support for Israel.

And anyone that can look up my record to vote ninety percent the damn line from a very purple state like Pennsylvania, I think that would identify me as a committed Democrat.

I'm not changing my party, and I had a very strong support for Israel.

But what I can say that picking aside for this it was a very easy choice if you study the history or if you can see the circumstance is right there on the ground.

I'm curious to get your reaction, Senator Fetterman, to the election of Zorammam Donnie as the new mayor of New York City.

I'm sure you were following this race pretty closely.

What do you make of his victory here?

I really I wasn't following it closely, and I would have no strong opinion with him.

But people keep asking because he and I knew it would become a litmus and he's not my mayor.

I don't live in New York City, and he will have virtually no impact on my life or my politics.

I was asking more as like, you know, your reaction in terms of what it signals to the Democratic Party probably more than the impact he'll have on your life for your constituents.

You know, well what it again, I won't have any impact, you know, in the politics that are required to win the next presidential election.

It's not going to come down to how New York City votes.

It's going to depend on how my state votes.

When fifty percent plus one wins, then that means one person supports you, and that means there's another one that opposes you.

In a very deep, deep blue city, I truly truly wish him the best.

I would never root against it.

I'm going to root for anyone because I'm rooting for New York City.

It's it's a magnificent city and that's where that's where we are.

And people keep asking me, well, what's your opinion on him, and I'm like, that's their next mayor, and it's like, I am a Pennsylvania senator and we have different values and that's the circumstances.

And I'm not surprised.

And I've predicted that that's going to become a significant part of the messaging for the GOP and they've used that.

President Trump himself has called you, quote the most sensible Democrat.

And I know you met with him in January, you say in part because you wanted to quote find kinship and common ground over the fact that you would both come face to face with death.

I'm curious what were your impressions of him?

Can you tell us a little bit about that meeting and what you thought of him in general.

Well, they reached out and they wanted to invite me to attend dinner, and that was in January, before he was even took the office, and as a senator for Pennsylvania and the president, you know, would like to meet with you.

I think that's part of the party and I think that's pretty reasonable to say, Okay, sure, absolutely, that doesn't mean we agree on everything.

And that's what I decided to do.

And we spoke for about seventy five minutes and overall, and my wife was there too, and we even discussed possibly, hey, could there be a deal about the Dreamers?

And again, I just wanted to have that.

And I'm again, you know, you talked about immigrant you know, I'm constantly it's like, I would love to protect the Dreamers.

Absolutely, And that's part of my wife's story.

She came here when she was seven years old.

I agree, And that's why I had dinner with him.

And if a Republican, you know, got an offer to have dinner with Obama, and if if he or she said absolutely not, whatever, I think people would be like, why not?

Why not?

It's like, what's the big deal, what's the problem.

I don't think anybody suggesting you shouldn't have met with him.

I just wanted to know a lot of people, you're, well, I wasn't.

I just wanted to know your impressions of him.

Was he receptive to your ideas?

Did he strike you as a different person than he is on say, social media and in some of his rhetoric.

I was just curious, profoundly different, absolutely profoundly different, you know, than his public persona.

And one of the reason why I did that because we both survived a near death experience and it really changed me.

And I was wondering, Hey, did that change your life?

Because you had probably the most profound political turnaround that I can ever ever recall.

And you know, you've been shot in their head and that bullet it could have been just a little to the left, I guess, to the right, and can you imagine the place our nation would have been if that would have happened.

But regardless, though, I hoped that we this created an opportunity to do big things and different things, And quickly I discovered that, yeah, the vast majority of the thing he's going to do weren't the kinds of choices I wouldn't have made to be in that situation, because you know, to understand that kinds of a you know, death, whether it's because of a medical one for me or in an assassin I took that in and that's one of the reasons why I did that.

Did he seem affected?

How did it change him?

What did he tell you about that?

I mean, who wouldn't be impacted by when you get shot in the head and they the only reason you're alive is because it missed it missed.

Being fun for What did he tell you about that?

No, of course not.

I'm not going to talk about that.

That must have been, you know, one of the worst moments in his life, you know, Like I mean, if he would have brought it up, I could, but I'm certainly not going to bring that up.

I mean, that's a basic courtesy for me, because that happened in my state.

I was thirty minutes away when it happened, and I was just, oh my god.

You know, and after we've seen what happened to Charlie Kirk and cand you imagine if it was that same kind of a terrable thing if it was him.

I mean, Charlie Kirk's assassination royaled the nation.

Imagine if that was President Trump.

Imagine what that would have done for our nation overall.

And thank god that did not happen.

And I didn't agree with many things of Charlie Kirk, but it was entirely appropriate to allow people to grieve and give people that respect and the space to do that, and not take that opportunity to push an argument or to remind people that a father of young children was shot in public because of his political views and that's a tragedy and give people the space to grieve.

Having said that, I'm curious, do you think that flags should have been flown at half staff?

Do you think his body should have been flown on air force too?

Do you think he should have posthumously be given the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

I think some people felt that was perhaps over the top in terms of mourning someone like Charlie Kirk.

How did you feel about that?

I'd say that that was his choice and his prerogative.

That was really entirely up to him.

Did you have any issues now in hindsight over some of the things that Charlie Kirk said and some of the rhetoric he during his life.

I didn't agree with much of it.

I didn't closely followed his specific kinds of views, but I did.

I'm sure you learned about them after his death, though.

No, I haven't done a deep dive on it, you know, I described I mean, we've all seen that terrible video, perhaps if you've seen the actual video, I have, and it's like appalling, and that's part of the political violence, and from what I'm saying, it's like that's unacceptable and engaging in a debate and views I strongly disagree on.

That's part of the American democracy, and for me, it's that would never justify what's happened.

And I just chose not to take the opportunity to argue his views after after children loft his father in the most violent public way.

I mean, I would say the equivalent, the equivalent on the left might be, say, mister Piker, I strongly disagree with his views, but I would A'm appalled if something like that happened to him.

Oh my god.

I mean that's you know, like we have to disagree in better ways where you know you're going to solve it by shooting people.

I think the appropriate way when someone is publicly assassinated.

I'm not checking their views.

I'm saying we should grieve and allow people to grieve and the kinds of space that they deserve to do those things.

And I tried, I found like a left equivalent.

In fact, they used to debate each other.

Hassan Piker someone that I strongly disagree on his views, but he absolutely has the right to have that conversations and not have to risk being shut And it's like that's why they debated each other because they're on the different side there.

I haven't done deep dives on both of their respective shows, but I'm saying, don't shoot people you disagree.

Don't shoot CEOs because you happen to have strong, warped views about they're entitled to shoot a CEO of an insurance company because you want to fight for fight.

That's again, that's definitely the wrong tactic to make a statement about healthcare.

Is shooting a father in the middle of a street in New York.

And now you know, people are dressing up like Luigi and he's he got about over a million dollars in legal defense.

Now, so that's perverse because if you shoot a person because of their job, it's like, hey, the next one might be you or me or whoever if you happen to disagree.

And that's the wrong way for our country to be.

And that's why I refuse those those kinds of rhetoric.

Calling people those extreme things extreme rhetoric makes it easier for extreme reactions or to justify them.

I think some people might say Charlie Kirk's rhetoric was extreme, you know.

I think that's the conversation that happened.

People condemned political violence, but they also felt a great deal of discomfort with his language, suggesting that these kinds of words lead to violence.

I'm just sharing my observations as I saw the conversations unfold.

I think we agree that we probably didn't agree with much of what he said, but I think I'm sure we both agree that you shouldn't shoot people you know, and you shouldn't execute them in public.

And that's I think that's two things must be true that free speech.

I'm an absolute free speech guy, and you have the right to say these things, and you definitely also have the right not to get shot by sharing your views.

Let's talk a little more about your book and the time we have left, Senator.

It is incredibly raw and transparent, particularly about your mental and physical health.

You didn't need to write a book like this, and I'm curious why you decided to be so radically honest and put so much of your own story out there.

Oh thank you for that phrase, radically honest, because the only reason to do it is if you're going to be honest.

And for me, I think it's an important conversation.

I know it may not be a big political win to talk about these topics but millions of American I know suffer from that.

And appropriately on Veterans Day where we're talking eighteen veterans take their lives every day eighteen.

And I think I was the first public official to talk about suicide and I strongly, strongly considered that because that's the danger of depression.

And I know people have been there.

I lost people that I cared deeply through suicide and they've left young children or grandchildren and it's heartbreaking.

And now that's that message is stay in the game.

And after winning the biggest election in the cycle, that's actually when depression really really hit.

And then I started to have some of the darkest conversations and trying to describe to people.

I'm not an expert, I'm not in training, but I have experienced that awful, awful sickness and I don't want this for you, but if someone is in that, it's like, stay in the game and keep it as simple as you can, because the lie of depression is that the best solution is to take yourself out, and that is the awful choice you can't ever come back from.

And you not only talk about your depression, but obviously the stroke that you suffered and how that all transpired.

It was in twenty twenty two.

You'd launched your second campaign for Senate and four days before the primary, you were on your way to a campaign event when your wife Gizelle, noticed your mouth was drooping slightly.

Can you share with us what unfolded from there?

Absolutely?

Absolutely.

I was on my way to a campaign at Millersville University and I literally just went into a sheets If you're not familiar with like a sheets, it's like a gas station and a food place.

You know, you know, Pennsylvania really would know that I was in going to the bathroom.

And I walked out and I sat in the car and Giselle said, my god, you're having a stroke and half of my face apparently, and I didn't know that was drooping.

And thankfully I was in Lancaster and they have an incredible facility, and that was we actually drove directly to the hospital and those doctors quite literally saved my life.

And I actually had the opportunity to shake his hand and meet him and I got to actually give him a hug for saving my life.

And if that would have happened at one am, I would have never woke up or that could have happened in a remote part of Pennsylvania during the campaign, I wouldn't have survived.

Probably, So that's how it.

No one knows when they're living their last fifteen minutes.

And at that point, walking into a men's room at sheets, I was, and I had no idea, and that was coming.

The fall of twenty twenty two was brutal.

You were still recovering from the stroke.

As the campaign heated up, mehmet Oz's team attacked you relentlessly.

You write that their ads got into your head, that you began to believe some of the insults, and that if the deadline to drop out had been in September instead of August, you would have Can you take us back to that time, Senator, and tell us the kind of pressure you were under, both physically and mentally, and how that led into your depression.

I was attacked relentlessly and called all kinds of terrible, terrible names, and now I had to make a choice, are you able to recover to be an effective candidate?

And actually the last day to withdraw was my birthday, August fifteenth, and by that point, all the polls and everything in our campaign, we were I guess that pull tracker that five point thirty eight had us about an eighty four percent chance of winning.

And things were going really well, and I continued to get better, so I stayed in it.

But then the absolute blow torch turned on in September and the one hundred million dollars of paid media and everything immediately hit and that all hit all at once, and that was incredibly intense.

And then that that was part of the breakdown.

And then I chose, I chose to have a debate, and I knew that would be rough.

Yeah, talk about that debate, Senator, because that was rough, and I'm curious how you experienced it in real time and how you dealt with the aftermath.

Plenty of people were saying, that's crazy, just just you know, you know, duck.

I mean plenty of time people, duck.

But I said, hey, I'm not afraid of I'm not afraid of it.

This is an honest assessment of where we're at, and I don't have any regret.

After that, I was convinced that that might be it.

And I'm sure many many Democrats were just, oh my god, what happened here?

And that's and yeah, I absolutely own probably the worst political debate in American history.

You're right, Simply quoting my words does not do justice to just how awful the moment was.

Nobody knew where I stood on the issue.

I look bewildered, hardly someone on the road to recovery.

The clip would be played over and over and over, popping up seemingly everywhere in my sleep, and the shower and the car on the sidewalk, where everyone you passed was whispering it.

That must have been so hard.

How did you stay in the race.

How did you convince yourself that you just had to hang in there and that you had to dig deep and find resilience and not be defeated by that performance.

Yeah, well, the way we designed that the debate was that was October twenty fifth, and the election was effectively two weeks later.

And then after that debate, we continued to campaign, and at that point I became convinced that it was going to slip away after that, and that's that was part of part of the pressure.

And that's when you can spend over one hundred million dollars and say terrible things.

And also the right online war machine absolutely kind of bar down and because that was the most important race and everybody needed to hold that seat.

If you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com.

You've been so transparent about your health, about your stroke, Senator, about the depression you experienced, but in some ways it's been turned against you.

On one hand, people might argue the public has a right to know about the fitness of an elected official.

How do you draw the line between fair accountability and unfair intrusion?

Do you think there is a line, or do you think it's the public's right to know everything about a politician's health.

Yeah, well, I mean that's really up to voters to decide.

It's not up to me to decide.

And that's why I was absolutely transparent, and that's why I chose to do a debate, and I put myself in front a debate that I can't imagine millions of people were watching.

You know, like, that's about as transparent as you could possibly be.

Knowing that was going to be a rough moment, I didn't show up thinking, oh, yeah, I can win.

I mean, doctor Oz is an incredibly capable communicator.

I mean he lives on TV.

I mean he made his career on that.

I mean you know that, so of course, and I might have assumed that's how it would go.

But that's about being transparent, and that's why I able to have own it and have this conversation and a part of this book, because after surviving all of those things, most people would have been elated after winning, but I got so beaten down.

And they even put up a gigantic billboard as I drive into my hometown, you know, with a terrible picture and everything.

I couldn't get away and my parents couldn't get away from it on all the channels, everywhere online, my kids and their social media feed.

And then finally, after winning that I didn't expect to even win, I turned on myself, and that's why I decided that probably the best solution is to take my life.

That's right.

In fact, you're incredibly open in the book about your darkest moments, even writing about contemplating suicide by jumping off the rank and bridge when your depression was at its worst.

Was that difficult to write?

And looking back on it now, Senator, are you surprised at how bad it got?

It's difficult, but it affirms I am really the luckiest guy alive.

You know, it was this was the paradox that, you know, after dying medically after the stroke and able to survive, then I decided that, you know, like I almost took myself out after surviving the stroke.

And that's that is dark and it's not easy to talk about, but it's important to talk because that's why I'm begging people that are in that same place.

After you just won the biggest race, I consider jumping off a bridge.

I plan these kinds of a thing, and it's like, that's quite a paradox.

And I see these things happen, like the young man that played for the Dallas Cowboys, he had his first NFL touchdown and he shot himself, and it's like tragic, tragic.

Every suicide is an individual tragedy and all the lives that are touched by that.

That's why we have to have this conversation.

There's an absolute epidemic in our nation for that depression is bipartisan.

You know, it doesn't check.

Hey, are you a Republican?

Are you rural, Are you urban?

Are you you liberal?

It's like that happens to anybody.

So that's where I'm having this conversation.

This book is really for people who might be experiencing some of the darkest moments of their lives as you did, and to talk to them about the way out of this kind of deep depression and finding the will to live.

Oh my gosh, my children saved my life, without a doubt, they save They saved my life.

And when someone told me that your children, you know, needs their daddy, and then that really that woke me up.

That woke me up.

One of the young staffers, you know, she just kind of stepped out of role and she said, you know, your kids need their daddy.

And that really because I didn't want to meet with them because I as they assumed they were ashamed of me or they didn't want me anymore.

And then I met with them, and I found out that they did love me and they need me back in their lives, and that really spontaneously got me out of it.

And that was my gift.

That was the emergency break.

And I cannot ever have a legacy of suicide to be the solution for my children.

When they have struggles in their life, well, then if dad did that, that must be the right thing.

I cannot allow that to be my legacy.

And that's part of the tragedy of the people that I know of.

They've left children and grandchildren, and that's not a judgment.

My heart breaks for them.

I got lucky, and that's why this conversation is to hope that there is one less people more that chooses that the right thing is to take their own life.

And if a US senator can make that choice, or a player in the NFL can do that, or veterans regardless, that's an important conversation because to experience it and live with that awful, awful kinds of feelings.

I don't want that for anybody.

And I try to be a voice or a resource to someone like Okay, I promised to I promise to keep myself in this game.

And I've had conversations with members of Congress and parents with their and their kids, you know, staffers, other people, and they've taken strength or inspiration from that.

I never really thought that voice would penetrate, but it did, and if it did, you know, it's an honor.

It's an honor to affirm that it's always, always, always the wrong choice to take your life, and depression is awful, and it's the lie to convince you the best solution is having a world without you.

And I think I was the first person to ever talk about it as a public official, and I remember after that President Biden actually shared that he had a moment in life where he considered to take his life.

And that's important too, to have people in these positions to say, hey, this is very human and it must be you, and it's okay and things will get better.

Do you think as a senator, I'm just curious, is there more that can be done in terms of national policies to provide more support to people who are going through the kind of depression you experienced and other mental health challenges.

Is there enough being done?

I sure hope so, and I want to be a part of every conversation about it.

And I'm trying to create conversations about this because I've had people reach out since this book come out or immediately after when I've been having these interviews.

I know politically it's not necessarily a winner, but I think it's honest, and I think a lot of people that haven't shared it publicly would know that they face these same kinds of circumstances, and the one choice you can't ever recover from is taking your life.

People all know that have had a serious attempt to take their lives by jumping off a bridge.

One hundred percent of those people spontaneously realized, oh my god, this is a mistake.

I want to live.

I want to live, and now they were able to survive, and that spontaneously cured that depression, and they realize that awful choice that you've just made.

You've really been through it, Senator.

Your list of medical issues is long, A minor stroke, a trial relation, cardiomyopathy, clinical depression.

I'm curious if you continue to receive regular medical treatment for your depression and other health issues, and how you would describe your current physical and mental shape.

Well, there's just nothing but good great news.

Now I'm proud to say that my heart functions at a fully normal normal function.

I don't suffer from those things that I describe in that, and I use a pacemaker, and I don't have a fib anymore.

And aphib was the thing that I inherited from inherited from my father and In May of twenty three, my father collapsed in the kitchen.

I got that awful call in my office.

He was on a ventilator for a month, and I had to stand by his bed, and then I have what kind of the stress my experience is that part of it having to watch all of these attack ads and then having to visit my father sitting by his bed, you know, like I visualized if I was sitting aside the bed of my son, if he was it could be dying.

Has that contributed to that eventually?

Uh?

And and that's that's that's heartbreaking.

But he made a full recovery, which is remarkable.

And one day we turned to each other and said, we both should be dead, and we both are the luckiest guy alive, and we just can only celebrate, you know, to be here right now and affirm just it might sound trite to to appreciate life, but I think Warren Zvin, uh, you know, enjoy every sandwich in that way.

And I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy my life.

And I am so grateful and in the middle of how devices our politics are and how terrible that it is, I want to find a way forward and to be a voice.

I don't know if that's the winning lane, but it happens to be my lane, and I've lost the taste to just be.

You say these kinds of thing.

It comes from a place of deep, deep gratitude because I should be dead.

I should be dead, and I've got a second chance by surviving a stroke that I guess technically did take my life, but I came back and I was able to overcome the choice to even take your own life.

And that's why I'm paying this forward.

And I don't have any grudges.

I just I really wanted to say thank you for every opportunity and to be the voice through an epidemic and a scourge here, and to be the kind of voice in politics in the middle of this that we really should.

And we have forgotten that we need each other, and it's getting more and more difficult to remember that we need each other and we all live together.

And I know people and love people that voted for President Trump, but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that they're terrible.

It just means we have to find a way to work together and get along.

And America will celebrate Thanksgiving and we all will be in close proximenity to people.

So that's you know, people are three dimensional, it's not just how they happen to vote, and that's a way forward.

And describing my own death both medically and you know, suicide is an important conversation, but also having a conversation of why I chose to break cloture, you know, and now.

And that's why I'm touched by that story that you referenced online that her husband is suffering in such a terrible way.

It's part of the tragedy, but it's like the solution means that we can all find a way to work together on things as difficult as it is.

How have you been able to manage your depression?

Obviously this is something that doesn't sort of magically necessarily go away.

Any advice for people who are struggling in terms of not being afraid of medication and therapy, et cetera.

Well, I'm saying, like, I don't know what your path could be, Try find whatever's available.

And as long as you promise yourself that you're you're going to stay in the game, you know you can, you can emerge, and you don't have to believe the lie of taking yourself out and that's that's my advice, honestly, and with depression for me, like I've been just the way I've been able to rebuild my heart, I've also haven't suffered from the kind of depression.

And after in this deeply deeply divided time, I find it affirming.

Why It's like it's an honor.

It's an honor to be a voice for Pennsylvania.

And if I've disappointed some of my fellow Democrats for that, I'm truly sorry, But I don't judge them on their views, and I hope they would for the same level of respect for mine.

But reminding people, as a Democrat, as a ninety percent Democrat voter, we are allowed to have different views because we need to be a big tent Democrat in order to win the big elections.

And that's where we are.

And I am absolutely rooting for the mayor of New York.

I don't agree with many of his views, but that's an important city, it's a beautiful city, and it's like I want him to be successful, and that's that's where we are.

We can we have to agree to get a way forward, regardless of their political views.

Given everything you've been through, Senator, I'm amazed that you've decided to stay in politics, a line of business that you yourself describe as sometimes poisonous.

How do you find the strength and resilience to continue to fight when it has been such a blood sport and probably not the healthiest line of work for someone like you.

Well, it's it's like, uh, you know, you have interviews with NFL players and they will ask them the question, would you want your sons playing in the NFL, and increasingly more and more saying no, no, I wouldn't.

I wouldn't now, I wouldn't recommend that.

And thankfully none of my own children are they haven't been bit by that bug.

But I would recommend anybody that it is.

It's increasingly becoming a contact sport, and people often forget one of the accelerants of social media.

And if you drop something online and call people and say rough things, it touches people because there's a there's a name attached to that screen and they absorb those things.

And that I did the mistake of reading throughhol those you know, after the election, and yes there were terrible things said, but it was the volume of it, you know, just millions of views or millions of things, And I'm like, where did this come from?

You know, for someone that I had different views than you, and the kinds of hate and the wishes for your death and for those things.

Have we just kind of lost ourselves in a way.

And that's part of the important conversation where if if you receive some kind of a relief to say something like that online, but I promise you it doesn't make our nation more just or safe.

That's actually helping destroy our democracy too, not different than a lot of these destructive kinds of choices that I don't support that have happened during under the Trump administration.

So for me, it's like it's a person, it's a person attached and if you wouldn't want that for you, I wouldn't say anything on social media that I wouldn't say to somebody in person right right now.

And I think that's a good rule because it's it's hard to say things if you sit down or talk to them and say, okay, we can agree or we can disagree on these things without saying these things.

And we all have to remind I do too, I mean all these things.

It can get intent sometimes, but we can't forget that humanity because it really does impact people, especially children.

Truly truly heartbreaking things.

Are children that are bullied into suicide.

Oh my god, that's just awful.

One of the children, one of the children's parents that reached out.

I met with him fifteen years try to to kill himself twice.

He was in a hospital and I'm like, you know, please, I beg you on that.

So for me, we got to be kinder to people because it has an impact, because it had an impact on mine.

And I don't think it should have taken personal, but it feels very personal when people spend the time to jump on their phone and just unload on a person that you probably never even met them in person.

So that's the truth.

That's the truth.

And unlimited money.

Unlimited money in our politics is part of also the indictment.

When somebody can accrue one hundred and twenty million dollars to absolutely destroy your reputation and create a carpet bombing, absolutely annihilate your reputation and say things that have no basis in reality, that's perfectly legal, and that's what's to be expected.

And my race, my race was around three hundred and twenty million dollars.

That was the most expensive other than non presidential and that was quickly eclipsed.

Ohio was over half a billion dollars.

Half a billion dollars to absolutely pulveright someone else's reputation that are largely not even based in reality.

Unlimited money is really the true cancer on our democracy.

Eliminate that, you remove a lot of the poisonous influences, because unlimited money means unlimited venom is coming and it's going to continue to escalate, you know, whether it comes from podcasts, or whether it becomes TikTok, whether it comes from Facebook, all those things.

They are continuing to find more and more ways to help break and destroy a person based on different political views.

If I have a wish, if I could be a king, if I could make one simple choice, I would I would undo Citizens United, and that that's the thing that opened up unlimited money, and that would profoundly change American politics spontaneously if I was king.

That's the simple most thing to change American democracy is to remove remove the unlimited money.

It sounds like this book in some ways is a plea for us to restore our own humanity.

It's your story it's about your journey, but it's also kind of a message to the wider population.

Yeah, well, you know, I think it's been worth it to me because I've had people reach out saying, you know, that this conversation has saved their life or that's made them feel better in their life where they chose to get help, and Tavia, that's really the point of it.

And my voice and my vote is consistent to the values that I've always had before the stroke.

Now trying to explain her, or to describe to people why I chose to to be I mean, the media was putting the effect of the wanted posters, you know, the eight damns you know here it is like hanging up in the post office kind of you know.

And I know all of them, and I know the eight ones that did that.

They are deeply honorable, patriotic people and they happen to disagree, and that doesn't make them bad people.

And you might be disappointed, but we believe that there was no exit ramp that wasn't going to drop our nation into deeper, deeper kinds of chaos, especially the people that are deeply touched by that, whether they're on snap or they are not getting paid going on for a month and a half.

So that's been that's been my message.

And having them all converge at the exact same time.

That's where I am.

And I am grateful to be able to have this conversation.

And yeah, I don't want to dwell in that, but I just what I've learned is that I can only emerge as profoundly grateful.

Well, John Fetterman, you've been so generous with your time.

Thank you for having this long conversation with me.

The book is called Unfettered, and I think it will help a lot of people, and as you said, it already has, so thank you for writing it and thank you for talking with me about it.

No, thank you for spending you were very generous with your time.

I dedicated the book to those people in that struggle, people in the throes of depression that are considering it, and I beg people to not make the one mistake you can't come back from.

So thank you for allowing me to have this conversation on your platform.

Absolutely, you're welcome.

Thank you, Senator.

I'll let you get back to all the stuff you have to do.

The vote happened right now, we're waiting for the House.

Uh correct, Yeah, Uh, there's a statutorial where the earliest time they can do that is tomorrow night.

And to be clear, it is not guaranteed, it is not it is not h We are not living in normal times, we all agree, and something very very abnormal could happen.

And one of the things abnormal was this solution that came up.

You know, I didn't know that I found out that, Hey, something reached.

I assumed.

I assumed this was the recess.

I mean, you know, you know, technically we shouldn't even be here, but here we are.

Because so I wish, I wish that that the solution sticks.

But if it doesn't, but I'd like to remind everybody everyone that's listening that was as angry or disappointed that we reopened the government, we will have the same opportunity to do this in January.

So it's a long slow We're not even to the first year of the Trump presidency and that's four years.

So that's why I'm begging people that it's like, we have to find a way forward and the election.

The election is coming in less than a year, and that's where we are, and that's where my values and voice will remain.

Thanks for listening everyone.

If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM on Instagram.

I would love to hear from you.

Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.

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