Speaker: Hi, I'm Anne-Marie Zanzal, coach, ordained minister.

Speaker: Grandma, mama, four, and a queer Speaker: woman married to my lovely, Speaker: gorgeous wife.

Speaker: After I came out later in life.

Speaker: This is coming Out and Beyond LGBTQIA Plus Stories, a podcast Speaker: for everyone exploring identity, queerness, and what it means to Speaker: live more truthfully.

Speaker: No matter our age or stage, we Speaker: share stories of coming out, Speaker: starting over, resiliency, how Speaker: to navigate relationships, Speaker: grief, joy, and building lives Speaker: that actually fit us as human Speaker: beings.

Speaker: No labels required, just curiosity, courage, and a little Speaker: faith in this journey.

Speaker: Welcome.

Speaker: Let's dive in.

Speaker: You're not too late.

Speaker: You're right on time.

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Speaker: This isn't just a conference, Speaker: it's a lifeline for women and Speaker: non-binary folks who are new to Speaker: queer community.

Speaker: Provincetown is a place that has wrapped its arms around the Speaker: queer community for decades.

Speaker: And when you join our group Speaker: during the iconic annual Women's Speaker: Week, you'll be stepping into a Speaker: place where the energy is Speaker: electric.

Speaker: Here is where you'll be seen, Speaker: celebrated, and safe in your new Speaker: queer identity.

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Speaker: Hello everybody and welcome back Speaker: to another episode of Coming Out Speaker: and Beyond.

Speaker: I'm very excited to introduce you to a wonderful woman.

Speaker: So today's guest began her coming out journey in high Speaker: school in nineteen seventy six, at a time where lesbian role Speaker: models were almost nonexistent except for a well worn chapter Speaker: in our body, ourselves.

Speaker: By her mid-twenties, she made a choice to reject shame and step Speaker: fully into authenticity and activism in Philadelphia.

Speaker: She taught junior high and high school for fifteen years, often Speaker: as the only openly gay teacher in her school.

Speaker: She also founded Wild Heart Speaker: Adventures, a lesbian travel and Speaker: activities group that gave women Speaker: space to belong, connect and Speaker: celebrate themselves.

Speaker: Her summers in Provincetown sparked a new chapter.

Speaker: In nineteen ninety three, she opened Wild Hearts, the only Speaker: store devoted exclusively to lesbians and sex toys.

Speaker: A year later, she launched Toys Speaker: of Eros, which would merge with Speaker: Wild Hearts into the inclusive, Speaker: queer owned, sex positive Speaker: Provincetown landmark.

Speaker: It remains today, and I have Speaker: been there, folks serving the Speaker: Sapphic and LGBTQ community for Speaker: over thirty years, but her Speaker: mission has gone far beyond Speaker: toys.

Speaker: From helping cancer survivors reconnect with with sensation to Speaker: guiding someone through their first vibrator purchase, to Speaker: teaching lesbian couples how to choose their first strap on.

Speaker: Her work has always been about Speaker: celebrating queerness, education Speaker: without shame, and making Speaker: pleasure political.

Speaker: Through initiatives like orgasm Speaker: for Social Justice, she has Speaker: turned a liberation in the Speaker: bedroom into advocacy for LGBTQ Speaker: rights, women's empowerment and Speaker: human rights.

Speaker: Now sixty eight, she still lives in Provincetown, still runs Speaker: tours of arrows and still proud of how this little shelf shop Speaker: has helped countless women, couples and queer folks embrace Speaker: their sexuality as something not to hide but to celebrate.

Speaker: Maxine Kroll, welcome to the show.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: I'm so excited to have you here.

Speaker: Great to.

Speaker: You know, it's so funny because the first time my wife and I Speaker: went to to Toys of Eros was in Provincetown eight years ago, Speaker: and it was it's just such a delightful store and so Speaker: informative, and it's educational and fun.

Speaker: So.

And now you're on my show.

Speaker: Like, how cool is that?

Speaker: I feel so lucky.

Speaker: So, Maxine, we start the show Speaker: with talking about our coming Speaker: out story.

Speaker: So let's hear yours.

Speaker: So I was probably like a Speaker: sophomore in high school, and I Speaker: got Ahold of our bodies, Speaker: ourselves.

Speaker: And there was one chapter on lesbianism and it really Speaker: resonated with me.

Speaker: And I just read it and read it and read it.

Speaker: And, you know, at first I felt Speaker: like it was just a political Speaker: thing, like it wasn't really a Speaker: sexual thing.

Speaker: I was just that it was a stage, you know?

Speaker: But I just got I read everything I could get my hands on.

Speaker: And at that time, like, I, we, I Speaker: remember being in the first gay Speaker: pride parade and there were like Speaker: thirty people down at the at the Speaker: docks in Philadelphia, And we Speaker: called it gay liberation at the Speaker: time.

Speaker: And so it was sort of very into Speaker: more of the political Speaker: liberation.

Speaker: And there should be rights for Speaker: the member of now by any chance Speaker: of now.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: You are.

Speaker: So is my wife.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: She was the vice president from Speaker: Nashville, right along to the Speaker: lesbian and Gay Task Force of Speaker: Philadelphia.

Speaker: And at that time, it was just there was no, you know, B or T Speaker: or plus two.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I remember I joined the Temple University Gay and Speaker: Lesbian Alliance and there were three of us.

Speaker: My best friend and and the professor.

Speaker: Um, and now I think there's two thousand.

Speaker: That's just like I had really loving parents.

Speaker: Who.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then I.

And then I slept with my best friend in, in high Speaker: school in my in twelfth grade.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then the next day, I woke up covered in acne, and I thought I Speaker: had the measles, literally, because I was so stressed out.

Speaker: Because at that time, the only lesbian role models were these Speaker: women hanging out on the in the worst parts of town, on street Speaker: corners, in front of bars.

Speaker: And they they looked scary.

Speaker: I mean, they had a persona of don't come near me, don't touch Speaker: me, I will fuck you up.

Speaker: Which of course I understood.

Speaker: Now you know I love and understand it as just a loving Speaker: projection of, you know, they were just protecting themselves.

Speaker: But, you know, at that time, Speaker: what I saw, as you know, a Speaker: seventeen, eighteen year old Speaker: were, you know, were just scary Speaker: women.

Speaker: And all you heard was that lesbians were sexual perverts.

Speaker: And, you know, I wanted to be an Speaker: attorney and or a teacher and Speaker: just have a, you know, so I just Speaker: did.

Speaker: The two didn't seem to gel, but I just kept reading and, you Speaker: know, just kept throwing myself into the movement.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And of course, within two or three years, it normalized.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: You know, my wife, when she Speaker: slept with her Baptist, her Speaker: prayer partner from the Baptist Speaker: Student Union.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: Very proud of.

Speaker: She said she thought she was.

Speaker: She woke up the next morning and it was like an existential Speaker: experience out of body of experience because she's like, Speaker: oh my God, I'm gonna shoot straight to hell.

Speaker: It was also our first kiss was Speaker: the first time I had ever Speaker: experienced, like, fire, Speaker: literally fireworks.

Speaker: And I understood all the songs, Speaker: all the books, everything they Speaker: had ever spoke about love and Speaker: whatever.

Speaker: I was like, I think at that Speaker: point in time, I was eighteen, I Speaker: finally understood what they Speaker: were talking about, about sex Speaker: and love.

Speaker: And I also knew instantly, oh my Speaker: God, I really am that dark, Speaker: horrible, perverted thing they Speaker: call lesbian.

Speaker: I'm curious, do you come from a religious background?

Speaker: I'm Jewish.

Speaker: Um, so no, in Judaism there is no outward thing of like, you're Speaker: going to hell any of that.

Speaker: Were your parents orthodox or Speaker: conservative or just or, like, Speaker: more social?

Speaker: More social?

Speaker: I mean, they call themselves conservative, but no, they were Speaker: I mean, they never did like, this is against God or I don't Speaker: even think it was more of a social construct that there were Speaker: no there were no lesbian role models at all.

Speaker: Maybe a tiny bit later, Billie Jean King came out and that was Speaker: the first one.

Speaker: But right.

Speaker: The only people I saw were people on the street corners.

Speaker: So you said that you kept on Speaker: exploring queer community, and Speaker: within two or three years, your Speaker: your, um, what's the word I want Speaker: to use?

Speaker: It was normalized.

Speaker: It was like I was part of a community.

Speaker: Yeah, but it's also like your lens shifts, you know, like the Speaker: lens that we like.

Speaker: You're you're very compulsory, heterosexual, heteronormative.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: It switched.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: It did.

Speaker: And I realized I could be really happy as a lesbian.

Speaker: I could be a little bit butch.

Speaker: I could act a little bit masculine.

Speaker: I didn't have to act a certain way for guys.

Speaker: And I could have a great time and a great life.

Speaker: And I think there was also a Speaker: moment I actually remember it Speaker: when I was looking in the mirror Speaker: and thinking, I can be ashamed Speaker: of being a lesbian, or I can Speaker: really, like, become an activist Speaker: and a radical and have a ball Speaker: and hang out with all these cool Speaker: dykes that are doing all this Speaker: fun shit and marching and Speaker: whatever.

Speaker: And I decided, yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

Speaker: And, you know, it's it's really interesting.

Speaker: It's like, I love how you embraced it.

Speaker: And I love that you talk about Speaker: political lesbianism versus Speaker: like, you know, and people Speaker: really don't understand what Speaker: that is.

Speaker: And and I'm really appreciative Speaker: of you saying that, you know, Speaker: it's true.

Speaker: Like back then people that came out were extraordinarily brave.

Speaker: They really had to be like my friends that came out like that Speaker: are in their sixties and were out back then.

Speaker: Talk about it in the sense that Speaker: there was such a sense of Speaker: community then.

Speaker: Oh my God, it's very different now.

Speaker: It's very different now.

Speaker: I know yeah.

Speaker: They and like they're like it was just different.

Speaker: But it was also a lot like, especially in the South.

Speaker: um, was a lot scarier.

Speaker: I mean, like, you would be very Speaker: careful before asking another Speaker: same sex couple if they were Speaker: gay.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So we were we were vilified.

Speaker: But in that, like, vilification, Speaker: you know, they pushed us Speaker: together and made us, you know, Speaker: so our subculture was super Speaker: strong.

Speaker: Super strong.

Speaker: And I, you know, I feel, um, sad Speaker: for young people that they don't Speaker: have that.

Speaker: But of course, it was born out of us being, you know, separated Speaker: and being made wrong.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: There's something there's benefits that people that come Speaker: out young now get that other guys never get.

Speaker: But and unfortunately, if what's going on has their ways, may Speaker: unfortunately have to have what was it's like fifty years ago Speaker: again you know.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: I know, and I wonder about that.

Speaker: And I wonder if that will make Speaker: more community for younger Speaker: people, like of a stronger Speaker: community where they lean on Speaker: each other and, you know, like Speaker: you could be I mean, in my Speaker: twenties, I could be plopped in Speaker: the middle of Chicago and know Speaker: no one, but I could just walk by Speaker: another lesbian and we knew each Speaker: other.

Speaker: We had a whole code, you know, Speaker: and I was at home and she was Speaker: there.

Speaker: I could she was a complete stranger.

Speaker: But part of my community that's lost, I think.

Speaker: Hmm.

Speaker: So you became a teacher and you were an art teacher.

Speaker: So you were a teacher back in Speaker: the late nineties, early two Speaker: thousand?

Speaker: No, this is the the early eighties.

Speaker: That, like, what was that like for you?

Speaker: It wasn't.

Speaker: It wasn't really.

Speaker: Well, first of all, you're in Philadelphia, right?

Speaker: I'm in Philadelphia, right.

Speaker: And and my parents, you know, I never got from my parents sent Speaker: me to a psychiatrist because, you know, they I was a lesbian, Speaker: but that was the extent of it.

Speaker: It wasn't like, you know, you're out of here.

Speaker: This is bad.

Speaker: This is, you know, you're evil.

Speaker: I didn't get any of that.

Speaker: So I was very lucky.

Speaker: Um, and I came out in a school where, I don't know.

Speaker: I feel like most of the people Speaker: wouldn't have dared said Speaker: anything.

Speaker: Like maybe they thought in their minds she's going to go to hell Speaker: or whatever, but I, I presented it as so normal and kind of, you Speaker: know, it wasn't bad.

Speaker: Interestingly enough, it was the other lesbian teachers that were Speaker: scared to death of me.

Speaker: They were, you know, they really they turned and walked the other Speaker: way when I came by because they weren't ready to write.

Speaker: They weren't out.

Speaker: They weren't out.

Speaker: How do you think that affected your students to see an openly Speaker: out queer teacher?

Speaker: Were you the safe teacher?

Speaker: I think no, I think it was good.

Speaker: So at that time, it really was Speaker: not okay to come out to the Speaker: kids.

Speaker: I did have one young.

Speaker: I recognized her as a young Speaker: lesbian and she, you know, came Speaker: to me and said, do you believe Speaker: in lesbianism?

Speaker: So in those days, the language was so weird.

Speaker: Like, do you believe, you know.

Speaker: Um, but, um, yeah, I think it gave I think it gave young Speaker: lesbians and young gay boys a little bit of, like, not agency, Speaker: but, you know.

Speaker: Yeah, they felt a little bit better about themselves.

Speaker: And as I got older, you can be a teacher, you can be educated.

Speaker: You don't have to be on a corner in a bar drinking.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You're right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You gave them hope when they saw you.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, and it was, I mean, like, for the young girls to see Speaker: a professional woman that also was a lesbian.

Speaker: Even when you're a kid, you know your own.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Of course.

Speaker: So they maybe nobody talked Speaker: about it, but they're all like Speaker: Miss Curls.

Speaker: Gay.

Speaker: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker: Do you think Miss Kroll is gay?

Speaker: Yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker: So how did you fall in love with Provincetown?

Speaker: You know, at the time, it was Speaker: the only place to go where you Speaker: were not only accepted, but Speaker: celebrated.

Speaker: And you walked hand in hand.

Speaker: You know, most lesbians wouldn't do that.

Speaker: I did, because, as I said, I kind of wanted to shove it down Speaker: the straight community's throat.

Speaker: That was like my thing.

Speaker: I was a radical, but, you know, there was no place where you Speaker: could walk down the street and hold hands or kiss or whatever.

Speaker: And in Provincetown, I mean, you went to the Cumberland Farms and Speaker: there was a lesbian.

Speaker: You lesbian.

Speaker: You went and called the plumber.

Speaker: There was a lesbian plumber.

Speaker: Everybody was gay.

Speaker: It was just it was home.

Speaker: It was home.

Speaker: And so what I started like a travel group for lesbians.

Speaker: Um, kind of like Olivia travel is now, but on a smaller scale.

Speaker: And.

Speaker: And I would bring people to Provincetown in the summer.

Speaker: I'm doing now.

Speaker: Right, right, right.

Speaker: The same exact, um, you know, when I was here and and one of Speaker: the women in the group, um, was she was actually from Speaker: Provincetown, and she was opening a little queer.

Speaker: Not not queer like a joke store Speaker: for, um, it's called Speaker: condemnation.

Speaker: Like with condom hats and just a silly little store.

Speaker: And I said, no, what we really need is a store that sells Speaker: lesbian sex toys.

Speaker: And she said, open it.

Speaker: She was like the the first Speaker: female graduate of Harvard Speaker: Business School.

Speaker: And she said, open it.

Speaker: And I said, okay.

Speaker: And I actually did.

Speaker: The next summer I just researched it and we rented a Speaker: little tiny store on commercial.

Speaker: So we you still holding your job during the year?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yes, yes.

Speaker: So that's what I was going to ask.

Speaker: So the reason why you opened the Speaker: sex store was because someone Speaker: said open it and you said, okay, Speaker: right?

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: Don't open a silly joke store.

Speaker: Open a store for lesbians.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So when you open the store for lesbians and sex toys and stuff Speaker: like that, how was it received?

Speaker: We had a a line around the block Speaker: like it was a bar the first Speaker: night.

Speaker: Yeah, it was just an explosion, you know?

Speaker: I mean, it made it made women feel so good.

Speaker: And it wasn't just sex toys, it was books.

Speaker: And it was almost like a lesbian bookstore.

Speaker: But it was fantastic.

Speaker: Now, there were some lesbians Speaker: who were scared to go in, but it Speaker: was literally a line on Saturday Speaker: nights.

Speaker: What do you mean?

Speaker: Why were they scared to go in?

Speaker: Just because if somebody saw Speaker: them or no, I think they were Speaker: afraid of their own sexuality Speaker: and sex toys and like, oh, you Speaker: know.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, they felt people feel funny about sex.

Speaker: So what have you learned about women and sex in owning a sex Speaker: store now for thirty years?

Speaker: Tell me, what are some of the most interesting things you've Speaker: learned about women in sex?

Speaker: Hi, it's Anna Empey, and I'm Anne-Marie Zanzal.

Speaker: We are part of the production team of Secure Lesbian Bonds.

Speaker: You love each other, but lately it feels like you're speaking Speaker: different emotional languages.

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Speaker: Strengthening love is an online Speaker: relationship course created Speaker: specifically for lesbian Speaker: couples.

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Speaker: Com because your love deserves Speaker: to feel safe, seen and strong Speaker: again.

Speaker: While this might not, I mean, I can tell you that the difference Speaker: between lesbians and heterosexual women are huge.

Speaker: Like the the lack of knowledge that heterosexual women have Speaker: about themselves is astounding.

Speaker: You know, and I don't really pay too much attention to that.

Speaker: Sometimes I feel guilty and feel like I should, but but I don't.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: One of the most important things Speaker: I've discovered is that no one Speaker: thinks that they're sexually Speaker: normal.

Speaker: Everyone thinks that whatever it Speaker: is they like, or whatever it is Speaker: they do is a little bit like not Speaker: normal.

Speaker: You know, everyone thinks like, oh, they, they they produce.

Speaker: Um, you're gonna have to edit Speaker: this because I can't find my Speaker: words like lubrication, for Speaker: instance.

Speaker: Oh my God, I have too much lubrication.

Speaker: I don't have enough lubrication.

Speaker: Everybody is uptight about whatever it is they like or Speaker: don't like or, you know, do or don't do during sex.

Speaker: That's so interesting.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That is.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, okay, I'm not going to say everyone, but a lot, lots Speaker: and lots of people, like, of course, I'm just look at the Speaker: wall like a dildo wall.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And there'll be little dildos Speaker: and big dildos and great big Speaker: dildos and little teeny tiny Speaker: dildos, and they never feel Speaker: like, you know, that it's normal Speaker: that what they're picking out is Speaker: normal, and they're all normal, Speaker: from the tiniest one to the Speaker: biggest one.

Speaker: It's just like our noses, right?

Speaker: Our vaginas are all different sizes.

Speaker: Yeah, everyone thinks there's a Speaker: little something wrong with Speaker: them.

Speaker: And I think that's somehow.

Speaker: You know, what really surprised me is that my poor wife's going Speaker: to get used as an example here.

Speaker: So she was raised Southern Baptist.

Speaker: Honestly, women from the South are a little bit more uptight Speaker: about things and about sex and stuff like that.

Speaker: And so we and I'm like the first Speaker: northern woman she's ever been Speaker: with and, um, all the Speaker: aggression.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, like, I have a lot less Speaker: hang ups, you know, about that Speaker: stuff.

Speaker: And she was really, really, you know, she was sort of now and Speaker: she jokes about it now.

Speaker: She says, God, why didn't I go up to North Years?

Speaker: Because she did have partners that just, you know, for Speaker: whatever reason, had shame.

Speaker: And, you know, there's only one way we can like that.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: And, um, what is really Speaker: interesting to me is, so when we Speaker: go into a store like that, she's Speaker: so shy, she's so shy, and I'm Speaker: like, we always laugh at it Speaker: because I'll find something Speaker: across the store and I'm like, Speaker: hey.

Speaker: And she's like, oh my God, right?

Speaker: But she's like, and that just blows me away.

Speaker: Because if you would be in conversation, she's bawdy.

Speaker: She's like, she's not, she's not sexually inhibited at all.

Speaker: But when we open those stores to get so like, oh my God.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: That's what I find really interesting.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And the other thing that Speaker: happened with our generation, Speaker: with with the generation of Speaker: women that were out in the Speaker: seventies, 80s 90s, we didn't Speaker: want to.

Speaker: It was also political.

Speaker: It was very political as well as Speaker: being just a one on one sexual Speaker: thing.

Speaker: And we didn't want to imitate the patriarchy in any way.

Speaker: So we didn't want to have any Speaker: kind of power balance in, in, in Speaker: sex.

Speaker: So we didn't, you know, even, like strapping on a dildo was Speaker: like, wrong, you know?

Speaker: You know, I'm constantly saying Speaker: it's not about penises, it's Speaker: about penetration.

Speaker: It's not about wanting a penis.

Speaker: It's about wanting your vagina filled.

Speaker: You know, and that that whole thing.

Speaker: So that also.

Speaker: And it inhibited a lot of us.

Speaker: I mean, even including me because we politicized our sex.

Speaker: I understand also where that can come from with lesbians.

Speaker: Have you noticed?

Speaker: You know, now we're dealing with Speaker: millennials and Gen Z's very Speaker: different.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Tell me how they're different than.

Speaker: Ours.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: So they'll walk in the door and say, hey, I want to.

Speaker: I need a dildo and a harness, you know?

Speaker: Yeah, they're fine, they're fine.

Speaker: And they're also much more fluid about butch and femme, you know, Speaker: whereas we really weren't.

Speaker: We all tried to be right in the middle, you know, want to be too Speaker: masculine or too feminine.

Speaker: Um, yeah.

Speaker: They're very they're very out Speaker: and proud about whatever crazy Speaker: stuff they're.

Speaker: Oh, we want a whip.

Speaker: We want, you know, they'll scream out.

Speaker: One of the things I've noticed is it depends.

Speaker: On what?

Speaker: Like, it doesn't matter about your age.

Speaker: It's about what year you come out on, like, come out on.

Speaker: I feel like I'm the, you know, Speaker: year twenty sixteen, even though Speaker: I was.

Speaker: So my sensibilities are very formed by that.

Speaker: And I, you know, and I also even though I was older, I, you know, Speaker: saw a lot of queer stuff on TV.

Speaker: So I feel like it's almost like it doesn't matter how old you Speaker: are, it's really what generation you come out.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So I mean, like, I'm like a what a millennial, I guess, in my Speaker: coming out ness.

Speaker: I find that later in life, women are also much more willing to Speaker: explore, much more willing to.

Speaker: Um, there's some, like, funny things on TikTok about, um, like Speaker: where they have the masculine of center women, like saying, oh my Speaker: God, get yourself a late.

Speaker: And they're just much more Speaker: willing to be exploratory, do Speaker: different things.

Speaker: Yes, I can absolutely see that.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Honestly, we talk about it in Speaker: our in our community as a second Speaker: adolescence.

Speaker: But I argue that it's a first Speaker: because a lot of times our first Speaker: time through as adolescents was Speaker: very performative.

Speaker: Yes, yes.

Speaker: I remember dating boys and not being really interested in it, Speaker: but doing it because it was what it was expected to be.

Speaker: Yes, yes.

Speaker: And, you know, it's you touched my heart a little bit about Speaker: being eighteen and finally realizing what, like sex was and Speaker: love and passion.

Speaker: You know, Maxine, I didn't have that until I was in my fifties.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: I never.

Speaker: That's what I think.

Speaker: Like the late in life community, Speaker: you know, a lot of us never had Speaker: that until we're in our Speaker: thirties, forties, fifties or Speaker: sixties.

Speaker: And, you know, I have found that women go from married women who Speaker: come out later in life, go from women that hate sex with their Speaker: husbands all the way to women that have good sex lives with Speaker: their husbands, you know, because they do, and because Speaker: friction is friction.

Speaker: So they have a good sex life.

Speaker: And so this feeling is so brand new and like they've never Speaker: experienced that before.

Speaker: And so I'm very happy that you got to experience that when you Speaker: were eighteen years old.

Speaker: I have to say that there is a beauty in experiencing that for Speaker: the first time, at thirty and forty and fifty, when you're Speaker: fully formed and you have this, you know, this wealth of Speaker: experience and knowledge and emotion, you know, because you Speaker: almost don't know what the hell is happening when you're Speaker: eighteen, but when you're fifty and you experience it.

Speaker: Wow, that must be even bigger.

Speaker: Well, yeah, because, like, it Speaker: was that moment, I understood Speaker: that.

Speaker: Oh, wait a minute.

Speaker: Love and passion really do exist.

Speaker: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker: I thought it was just something that was.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I never experienced it that like that.

Speaker: So a lot of the women I work Speaker: with are really nervous about Speaker: sleeping with a woman for the Speaker: first time.

Speaker: I never had that.

Speaker: I was like, it's sex, I'll figure it out.

Speaker: But a lot of people do.

Speaker: So if you've never slept with a woman before, can you give us Speaker: some really concrete advice, like three or four things?

Speaker: Like if someone said, Maxine, I've never slept with a girl Speaker: before, what's your advice?

Speaker: You know, I think we're always so worried about our technique Speaker: or what we do or what we don't do, you know?

Speaker: Um, I mean, look, but the first thing is to relax.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Um, but of course you can't do that, you know.

Speaker: So I guess the first thing to do would be to recognize that Speaker: you're nervous and uptight about it, and to tell whoever you're Speaker: going to be with that you're nervous and uptight.

Speaker: I love that.

Speaker: And they're going to completely understand because they feel Speaker: like that, too.

Speaker: Believe me, even, you know, at some level.

Speaker: Right?

Speaker: Everyone does.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And even if you're, you know, even if you have fifty years of Speaker: experience behind you and you own a sex store and you meet Speaker: someone you're hot for, you're still going to be nervous the Speaker: first time having sex with them.

Speaker: You know, how about like, how about so like, one of the things Speaker: I always say is that we all have the same parts, so.

Speaker: And so that can be like that can make it a little bit easier Speaker: because you know what you like on your parts and just check Speaker: with what your partner is.

Speaker: I think one thing that you can do is if you're really after, Speaker: like wanting to give this person an orgasm, one of one of the Speaker: really great things that you can do with another with the Speaker: clitoris is use a vibrator, a very light like if you're just Speaker: dating, going out on a date with someone or whatever, and you, Speaker: you know, if you have a very small, like, finger held Speaker: vibrator that that is always like, that's the go to.

Speaker: I mean, that's, you know, that's going to work.

Speaker: Light lights as soft and as light as you can go.

Speaker: But I feel like we know this because like you said, it's our, Speaker: our body parts.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, when somebody go light Speaker: enough and you can't go soft Speaker: enough.

Speaker: Well, and I think your partner Speaker: will let you know if she's Speaker: after.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: But start like that.

Speaker: Especially if you're both new, you know, and with your if Speaker: you're with someone who's never been with a woman to.

Speaker: I think that's just the way to Speaker: go in any new relationship to Speaker: go.

Speaker: And people are afraid to talk to each other.

Speaker: It's not easy to say that's too hard or go lighter.

Speaker: I really think the most important thing is to recognize Speaker: that you're feeling nervous and to tell your partner, and you'll Speaker: get each other.

Speaker: Most women wanted to make it a Speaker: really incredible and positive Speaker: experience for you if you Speaker: communicate that.

Speaker: Like most women, women want to please each other.

Speaker: It's very different than Speaker: straight sex because a lot of Speaker: times the straight sex, it's Speaker: about the guy coming and having Speaker: a right.

Speaker: That's.

Speaker: And if you happen to have one, good for you.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And that can add to the anxiety right.

Speaker: If you're with someone and and you know that you know that's Speaker: all they care about is you.

Speaker: And usually that happens often with women that you only care Speaker: about each other.

Speaker: And then it's even in a way it's Speaker: more pressure, you know, because Speaker: sometimes it takes the pressure Speaker: off when someone's just about Speaker: pleasing themselves.

Speaker: Like it's just about pleasing himself.

Speaker: It doesn't, you know.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So when you're if you're somebody who's never bought a Speaker: sex toy before and you're walking into a sex shop, how Speaker: would you approach it?

Speaker: Like would you just walk around Speaker: and explore and see what you Speaker: like?

Speaker: You know, I mean, the first thing that I would say is just Speaker: go over to whoever works there and say hi, I've never had a sex Speaker: toy before and I want one.

Speaker: And hopefully you're going into a store.

Speaker: Try and go into like a local privately owned store.

Speaker: Not like the an amazing store or penthouse, you know?

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: Try and go into privately owned Speaker: store and they will almost Speaker: always have someone there who Speaker: knows enough to tell you what to Speaker: look for.

Speaker: And basically, if you have a clitoris, you're looking for a Speaker: vibrator, you know, and I mean, yeah, there's a couple vibrators Speaker: that are really go to vibrators.

Speaker: The womanizer is special because Speaker: it pulses air around the Speaker: clitoris.

Speaker: It's a whole idea or a lightweight vibrator.

Speaker: So a lot of lesbians, especially Speaker: those of my generation, the go Speaker: to is the Hitachi Magic Wand, Speaker: right?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Hitachi Magic Wand is a powerhouse.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: If you've never had an orgasm or what.

Speaker: Some people can't handle that.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yeah, it's too strong.

Speaker: Also, what I have to say, right, Speaker: is that if you've never had an Speaker: orgasm, don't go that way Speaker: because you do get habituated Speaker: to, uh, the, the intensity of a Speaker: vibrator.

Speaker: Now, you can also break that.

Speaker: That's a whole different thing.

Speaker: So you don't have to worry if you're habituated to something.

Speaker: It's pretty.

Speaker: It takes like six times to get away from it.

Speaker: But, um, I would not give the Speaker: Hitachi as the first vibrator to Speaker: anyone.

Speaker: Um, and then, especially when women are menopausal, our Speaker: clitoris can hurt.

Speaker: Sometimes the Hitachi can hurt us, hurt our clitoris.

Speaker: So that's where the womanizer the oscillator would come in.

Speaker: Those are two that are really good.

Speaker: They're both expensive, you know.

Speaker: And so there are options if you Speaker: just want to spend twenty five Speaker: dollars, you know, on one, um, Speaker: you know, vibrators in and of Speaker: themselves, I mean, they, they Speaker: speed things up ninety nine Speaker: percent of the cases, they speed Speaker: orgasm up or they make orgasm Speaker: possible.

Speaker: They're like miracles.

Speaker: Vibrator is a miracle.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: People can't achieve orgasm any other way.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And that's great.

Speaker: That's fine.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, that's another thing.

Speaker: Women.

Speaker: I guess that's what I meant in the beginning when they.

Speaker: When I said women always feel like there's something wrong Speaker: with them or they're doing something wrong, you know?

Speaker: Oh, I need a vibrator or a vibrator doesn't work for me.

Speaker: Or, you know, if a vibrator is Speaker: the way you orgasm, use a Speaker: vibrator.

Speaker: Yeah, there's no rules, right?

Speaker: No rules, really are you have to Speaker: do it this way and this way Speaker: only.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: It's really about, like, helping each other achieve pleasure as Speaker: much as possible.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: What's the funniest thing about owning a sex shop?

Speaker: Funniest thing about owning a sex shop.

Speaker: You get all kinds of questions all the time.

Speaker: Everywhere.

Speaker: I think that I think people think that what they're saying Speaker: is funnier than like to me.

Speaker: It's like, you know, do you like high heels or do you like flats?

Speaker: And to someone else, it's this Speaker: crazy, like, you know, Speaker: emotionally charged question of, Speaker: you know, Vibrator do you like Speaker: or what dildo do you want to Speaker: pick out?

Speaker: I have to say that it feels fun and happy in toys all the time.

Speaker: People are in a great mood.

Speaker: They're having fun.

Speaker: There's lots of laughter, mainly Speaker: because people are Speaker: uncomfortable.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And that's pretty constant, you know, constant, you know.

Speaker: But I think what I like most about it is that couples will Speaker: come in and, and they'll start like, you can see that the love Speaker: that they feel for each other or the sexual tension they feel for Speaker: each other, like blossoming, like in front of your eyes, you Speaker: know, and they'll hold each other or kiss or smile at each Speaker: other thinking of how they're going to use it that night.

Speaker: And that's a beautiful thing to Speaker: see and to be around and to be Speaker: in that, you know, in that Speaker: environment.

Speaker: It feels good.

Speaker: Well, I've been to Toys of Eros Speaker: every time we go up to Speaker: Provincetown.

Speaker: And I'm just going to say that you're right.

Speaker: Maxine's employees are so Speaker: knowledgeable, you can ask them Speaker: anything.

Speaker: Sometimes they give you too much information about something.

Speaker: I don't know about other stores, Speaker: but my employees are, you know, Speaker: they're very, very Speaker: knowledgeable.

Speaker: And also to what I like about them is they're nonplussed.

Speaker: So even if you're embarrassed, Speaker: they will provide a space where Speaker: you can be, like slightly Speaker: embarrassed, but they're just Speaker: very knowledgeable and matter of Speaker: fact.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Which is really wonderful when you're like, stepping into a Speaker: store that maybe you've never stepped in before.

Speaker: So everyone is nervous.

Speaker: Everyone is nervous and weird about going into a sex store.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: When you do your educational series.

Speaker: So Maxine's been doing education around sex and sex toys for Speaker: years for women.

Speaker: What what what are some of the questions you get, like when Speaker: you've done your.

Speaker: I think the biggest questions that I get, and it's probably Speaker: because of my age and the audiences that I have, but Speaker: around menopause and around lose the desire and, you know, the Speaker: changes that we go through.

Speaker: I think that's the biggest one.

Speaker: Also, the other one is the G-spot.

Speaker: And people always want to feel Speaker: their G-spot and activate their Speaker: G-spot.

Speaker: And what I say to that is we all Speaker: have a G-spot, and it's like Speaker: nipples.

Speaker: Some for some people, they can have an orgasm with their Speaker: nipples touched and other people it means nothing.

Speaker: So don't spend like ten years trying to find your spot or Speaker: stimulating your G-spot.

Speaker: You know, if it's there, it's there.

Speaker: If it's not, no big deal.

Speaker: I mean, it's there, but it might not.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: How Maxine and I met is that I'm doing a, um, a Wing Women Speaker: weekend, which you all heard about for the last couple of Speaker: months in Provincetown.

Speaker: And Maxine is very involved with Speaker: Women's Week in Provincetown as Speaker: well.

Speaker: So how did you get involved?

Speaker: First of all, tell people, if you've never been to Women's Speaker: Week, what are we talking about?

Speaker: Like I just I say it because I know what it is, but there's Speaker: nothing like it.

Speaker: I mean, there's, you know.

Speaker: Okay, so back in the day, the Speaker: entire streets were just filled Speaker: with lesbians.

Speaker: That's all you saw everywhere you looked.

Speaker: I don't know if you still experience it like that.

Speaker: I do, pretty much.

Speaker: There's a lot.

Speaker: There are a lot of guys there to like.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So, yeah, it used to be there Speaker: were thousands and thousands Speaker: more women.

Speaker: But it's all.

Speaker: It's all lesbians all over.

Speaker: All the time.

Speaker: A thousand percent.

Speaker: And what we're focused on.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: I started a little subcommittee just for single women, because I Speaker: found that there were some single women that came that Speaker: didn't really make connections.

Speaker: So now, this year, when single women come, there's a Speaker: headquarters where they can go every single morning, even if Speaker: they're completely alone.

Speaker: Didn't even come with a friend.

Speaker: They can come every morning with coffee from eight to eleven.

Speaker: They can eat, and we're going to Speaker: have icebreakers, and everyone Speaker: is going to meet people this Speaker: Women's Week.

Speaker: And how many women come?

Speaker: Seven thousand.

Speaker: Yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker: It's crazy.

Speaker: In a very small area.

Speaker: You know, there's lesbian Speaker: comics, lesbian acts, bond, Speaker: everything.

Speaker: It's like incredible.

Speaker: One of my favorite parts about Women's Week is the tea dances.

Speaker: I like tea dances and, you know, and also too, if you're over Speaker: forty five or fifty, it's perfect, cause you dance from Speaker: four to seven, you go to dinner and you're bed by nine.

Speaker: That's right.

Speaker: I'm like, I love it.

Speaker: This is like my best life.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And by the way, ninety eight percent of us are over fifty.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: A lot of us, if you're somebody who is a late in life lesbian.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: It is a really great space to go into forty and over.

Speaker: It's perfect space.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: To really?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: To love to see more young people there.

Speaker: But.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So would we you know, that's a Speaker: that's like a function of what's Speaker: happened in our society that Speaker: they're not it's not a Speaker: subculture anymore.

Speaker: The lesbian, gay, queer, whatever it is you want to call Speaker: yourself, it's not a subculture.

Speaker: And so there's not.

Speaker: There's not this tight.

Speaker: You know, that's all we did as lesbians.

Speaker: We went to lesbian places.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: In my twenties and 30s, it was Speaker: whatever you did in your spare Speaker: time, whether it was lesbian Speaker: choir, lesbian knitting group, Speaker: lesbian softball, lesbian, Speaker: lesbian.

Speaker: You know, you didn't hang around Speaker: with straight people because Speaker: they didn't want you, and you Speaker: weren't accepted, and you Speaker: didn't.

Speaker: You weren't out.

Speaker: So.

Well, yeah, like my wife said.

Speaker: Like when, um, you know, when Speaker: when I first met her, I said, Speaker: you have a lot of queer friends Speaker: and no, not too many straight Speaker: friends.

Speaker: And she said, it's easier to be Speaker: with queer friends than my Speaker: straight friends.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And now that I've been out for a while and we've been together Speaker: like eight years, I can see that it is in a lot of ways that it's Speaker: much easier to be with other queer people or LGBTQIA+ people Speaker: than to be with straight people.

Speaker: Because like she said to me a long time ago, I don't have to Speaker: explain my relationship to them.

Speaker: Yeah, they treat my relationship like it's equal.

Speaker: While sometimes in in straight spaces unintentionally even they Speaker: they don't treat our relationships as equal to Speaker: straight relationships, right?

Speaker: There's so many nuances in the Speaker: lesbian culture that we have no Speaker: idea of.

Speaker: And picture it twenty years ago.

Speaker: I mean, you know, it was horrible.

Speaker: Like, who wanted to be around straight people?

Speaker: You know what I mean?

Speaker: Yeah, none of us do, really.

Speaker: We just had to because we worked with them.

Speaker: Well, and it's also.

Speaker: And we don't want to like, straight bash at all, you know.

Speaker: But it there is this there is I Speaker: honestly, since I have, you Speaker: know, I've been married to a man Speaker: and I've been married to a Speaker: woman.

Speaker: So I have a very unique experience in this world, you Speaker: know, identified as straight for a long time, though always in Speaker: the back of my head.

Speaker: I thought maybe I might not be, Speaker: but didn't have the courage to Speaker: explore that.

Speaker: And then now I identify as queer as a lesbian.

Speaker: And it's a really interesting experience to be married to a Speaker: woman and married to a man.

Speaker: And there's a lot of stressors Speaker: on on my, my queer relationship Speaker: that there wasn't on my Speaker: straight.

Speaker: Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker: And like, like, you know, I was at the pinnacle of society.

Speaker: You know, I was married to a Speaker: man, had money, had a career, Speaker: had children.

Speaker: I was like as at the top and still not happy.

Speaker: And then when I came out, I went boom, because I got divorced and Speaker: boom, I came out as a lesbian and boom, I married a woman.

Speaker: And my privilege just, like, sort of melted away.

Speaker: It's really good because I know the difference.

Speaker: So I'm able to point that out.

Speaker: Unlike people like yourself and like my wife, who's been out Speaker: forever, you've always been treated like this, right?

Speaker: You don't see it in the same way that I do it.

Speaker: Like I can see the subtle Speaker: differences of how I got treated Speaker: when I was a married woman to a Speaker: man than a married woman to a Speaker: woman.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: And I think one of the other Speaker: things that happened is that Speaker: when you are, you know, punched Speaker: down, down, down, you know, and Speaker: that happens young, you push Speaker: back.

Speaker: And I mean, we did end up Speaker: bashing we we did straight bash Speaker: and we did, you know, you know, Speaker: when you do that in in a Speaker: protective way.

Speaker: But it also is very empowering.

Speaker: I mean, we even sign on our store Wild Hearts when it was Speaker: just lesbian separatists.

Speaker: We didn't we didn't even want Speaker: feminists in there if they Speaker: weren't lesbians.

Speaker: We had a sign that said, this is a lesbian space, and by law we Speaker: have to let you in.

Speaker: But you are not welcome here.

Speaker: Only lesbians are welcome.

Speaker: And if you misbehave with the product or the other customers, Speaker: expect a big bull dyke to throw you out on your ass.

Speaker: We locked it.

Speaker: I mean it, you know.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well.

Speaker: And did you ever have to throw anybody out in there?

Speaker: We did.

Speaker: Yes, yes.

Speaker: It was fun.

Speaker: It was just, you know, these these, you know, very, you know, Speaker: middle class, socially acceptable, lovely lesbians Speaker: slowly came from each corner.

Speaker: They were listening to him.

Speaker: They slowly walked towards him, you know, and uh, in a very Speaker: threatening manner, and he just turned around and walked out.

Speaker: It happened a couple of times.

Speaker: But, you know, there's power.

Speaker: We have power.

Speaker: We have incredible power.

Speaker: Yeah, we just have to use it, right?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And when at that time, when Speaker: we're so together, like Women's Speaker: Week, whatever, you can feel Speaker: that power.

Speaker: And, you know, that is what we're what this young generation Speaker: does not have.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And I don't know what to do about that.

Speaker: You know, there's we have endless meetings about that.

Speaker: Well, I do think like that power, that joy.

Speaker: Um, my head started talking about the tea dance.

Speaker: If you identify as LGBTQ until you've been in an exclusively Speaker: inclusively LGBTQ space, you don't know what you're missing.

Speaker: Yes, yes, you need to have that experience because being the Speaker: majority feels real good, right?

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And what I have to say is that also the tighter the group like Speaker: not just LGBTQ plus.

Speaker: But if you're a lesbian, just to Speaker: be just with lesbians is even Speaker: more powerful.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, you know, we have we have Speaker: a friend that she's in her Speaker: forties.

Speaker: She's she's married to her wife and she's in Nashville.

Speaker: So, like, it's always been pretty inclusive for her, you Speaker: know what I'm saying?

Speaker: And so she would not go to, like, any of the queer bars Speaker: here, you know, like she didn't want to give them their her Speaker: money and stuff like that.

Speaker: Um, and then she married a woman Speaker: who has an African American Speaker: child, and all of a sudden, her Speaker: lens shifted and she saw, like, Speaker: her wife is much more wife is Speaker: much more appreciative of queer Speaker: spaces.

Speaker: And so then all of a sudden, she realized, I think, all the Speaker: privilege she had and privilege that other people did.

Speaker: And so and she also is a higher earner, too, which if you're a Speaker: high earner, you know, you have more privilege than somebody Speaker: who's a low earner.

Speaker: And so it's been really interesting to watch her like Speaker: poo poo queer places to now wanting to go to them, right?

Speaker: So, Maxine, how do people find you?

Speaker: How do people find me?

Speaker: Toys of euros dot com.

Speaker: Is that what you mean?

Speaker: My website?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So it's toys of euros.

Speaker: Com and by the way, everything Speaker: that every all the proceeds that Speaker: we make go to either LGBTQ Speaker: charities or like social justice Speaker: charities like the ACLU, the Speaker: NAACP.

Speaker: We really I have a deep belief, Speaker: like I put my money where my Speaker: mouth is.

Speaker: I think that we're really losing our democracy.

Speaker: We're certainly losing our human rights.

Speaker: We already lost abortion.

Speaker: We are going to lose gay Speaker: marriage any fucking millisecond Speaker: now.

Speaker: You know, we already trans people are not allowed in the Speaker: Army and the armed forces.

Speaker: Period that happened in March.

Speaker: It went to the Supreme Court in May.

Speaker: They threw it down.

Speaker: We're losing all our rights.

Speaker: Well, and the Supreme Court.

Speaker: Just said we could racially profile people too.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: We are losing our rights.

Speaker: So it's important more than ever for us to be in community Speaker: because those rights might be gone very, very soon.

Speaker: And so every time you buy a vial, that's why we say orgasm Speaker: for social justice.

Speaker: Every time that money is going to either say something to, you Speaker: know, to keep us safe.

Speaker: Did you ever coming out song Maxine.

Speaker: I would say the waterfall.

Speaker: Chris Williamson filling up and spilling over.

Speaker: I was at the march, the very first march on Washington.

Speaker: I had never seen so many queer people in my life.

Speaker: I was stunned, it was so moving Speaker: to see thousands like in seventy Speaker: eight.

Speaker: I'm so blessed.

Speaker: I feel so blessed to have been Speaker: born exactly at the time I was Speaker: born.

Speaker: It was really great.

Speaker: It was great.

Speaker: And and that and they were pushing.

Speaker: The boys came.

Speaker: So we were in the march.

Speaker: But then we ran to the end of Speaker: the march where the speeches Speaker: were.

Speaker: And the first people they were Speaker: pushing in were the boys in Speaker: wheelchairs because they had Speaker: Aids and they were beautiful Speaker: young twenty year olds in Speaker: wheelchairs.

Speaker: At that time.

Speaker: You just died when you got it.

Speaker: And Cris Williamson's song was, you know, just filling up the Speaker: air and it's in front of the, you know, in the monument.

Speaker: The Washington Monument was like incredible.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: And there she was.

Speaker: And she's going to be at Women's Week.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: She is.

Speaker: Did you have a, a book or a movie that really changed your Speaker: perspective on things.

Speaker: Well our bodies ourselves that Speaker: one lesbian chapter on our Speaker: bodies ourselves.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And then there were back and look at it.

Speaker: They've made so many different, Speaker: you know, iterations now, so Speaker: many editions.

Speaker: I guess you'd have to find the seventies, you know, the first Speaker: one, first one, and then Phyllis, Phyllis and someone Speaker: del, what are their names?

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're Speaker: they're from San Francisco, Speaker: right?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: The original.

Speaker: All the original lesbian writers.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Adrienne Rich Adrienne Rich unzipped my mind late in life.

Speaker: Lesbian to you know she came out she came out later in life.

Speaker: She was married to a man and Speaker: then came out in her thirties or Speaker: something.

Speaker: Oh that cool?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: She's brilliant, I loved her.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Um, and how would you describe your life today?

Speaker: You know, I feel like I said, I feel really blessed that I was Speaker: born in the moment that I was.

Speaker: And I think that our journey will never be again.

Speaker: Like the lesbians of a younger generation will never have the Speaker: experience that we had.

Speaker: They'll never have the camaraderie, the community.

Speaker: It was just incredible, so deeply joyful, you know, and Speaker: appreciative of that.

Speaker: I think aging is hard.

Speaker: Aging is horrifying and hard.

Speaker: And a lot of ways we could have Speaker: a whole nother episode about Speaker: that.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: Well, thank you so much, Maxine, for being well.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: Thank you for having me.

Speaker: Please, please, please, if you Speaker: go to Provincetown, check out Speaker: Maxine's shop.

Speaker: Toys of arrows.

Speaker: It is fun.

Speaker: There's a little museum in Speaker: there, and the employees are Speaker: great.

Speaker: They make you feel comfortable.

Speaker: So I want you all to promise Speaker: yourself to try to go to a one Speaker: sex store.

Speaker: And if you're going to go to Speaker: one, go to one that's as good as Speaker: Maxine's is.

Speaker: Come to town and come to P-Town.

Speaker: We're going to be there.

Speaker: We'll be there.

Speaker: Women's week, both of us.

Speaker: And I'll get to meet Maxine in person.

Speaker: How lucky am I?

Speaker: All right, everyone, thank you so much.

Speaker: You've been listening to Coming Speaker: Out and Beyond LGBTQIA+ stories Speaker: with Anne-Marie Sanzel new Speaker: episodes of the Coming Out and Speaker: Beyond podcast drop every other Speaker: Friday.

Speaker: You can tune in at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Speaker: Podcasts, and at annemariezanzal.com Be sure to Speaker: hit subscribe when tuning in so you never miss an episode.

Speaker: And for more resources, Speaker: articles, videos and a free Speaker: downloadable guide for coming Speaker: out later in life, visit Speaker: annemariezanzal.com.