Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.

Hey Little Helpers, welcome back.

Today we are going to do a topic that I think can sometimes have like a pejorative connotation, but so many of us do it kind of from a good place, and that is enabling.

Um, enabling can look really different, I think, depending on what the disorder is and where it comes from, but, um, kibbe's actually been doing a training on this, so she's got a lot to share.

It's also something that we've talked about at the va in reference to, like you know, spouses or or loved ones of people with PTSD.

So, kibbe, this is super relevant to Cool Mind, so tell us about what you've got going on and then explain to us what enabling is.

Yeah, just for any of you who have loved ones with addiction or other kinds of mental health symptoms and you kind of feel like you're stuck in negative cycles, like you don't really know how to help without making it worse, and maybe you are overextending yourself, you're burning out and you want to change but have a hard time figuring out how cool a mind is.

We've been talking about it, it's been.

It's been so great so far.

I've really loved it.

It's our community and support platform for people with mental health and addiction issues and their loved ones.

So basically, what we're doing now is that we're learning how to set boundaries, how to identify boundaries, how to identify when we're enabling we call it something else, but we'll get to that in a little bit and then how to actually set boundaries that stick.

So, for example, we're doing that now and all of our community members are working together, sharing what struggles and patterns that they're stuck in, and we're all supporting each other and learning how to break free from those unhealthy habits.

So if that sounds like something that you'd be interested in, just go to coolamindcom, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom or the link in the show notes.

Amazing Well, how would you define enabling?

Yeah, so I'm also for background, I'm also doing a training right now on craft, community reinforcement and family training craft yeah, that's right Specifically for loved ones of people with addiction, and so we're really talking a lot about this and the word enabling is so common, but it is.

It's pretty negative, as you were saying, because it makes it seem like, um, you know, it's kind of mixed in with the words codependent or it kind of sounds like you're causing or helping your loved one be addicted, so it really has kind of like a blamey and judgy word, right.

Some people do it on purpose to gain control, but the vast majority of people do it for well-intentioned reasons.

Yeah, the other words for it in the OCD world is called accommodation and in general it just describes actions that loved ones take to maybe solve a problem in the short term or relieve distress, like make things easier in the short term but actually make the addiction or other mental health symptoms more likely.

Sometimes we also say that enabling is doing an action that makes it easier for the loved one to drink or avoid something hard that actually maintains their disorder in the long run.

So, as you were saying, it's really coming from well-intentioned places.

Right, and it's so easy from the outside to be like don't help your loved one drink.

That's crazy.

Why would you do that?

Right, that's the thing that's causing you and them pain.

But in the moment when you're with your husband and he is so drunk and so sick and you're just like, oh my God, my kids are going to be upset.

You know this is going to be a mess, he's going to hurt himself, so I'll just clean up after him, I'll take off his shoes, I'll put him into bed and maybe I'll even call his boss in the morning and say that he's not feeling well and I'll tell the kids it's okay.

You know this is not, you know, daddy's just not feeling well, right?

So all of all of those kind of behaviors are just to try to make the situation better.

But what it might actually do is one add some kind of reinforcement, and we'll talk about that, but add some kind of reward or good thing around the drinking behavior and it also shields them from the consequences of their actions, right?

yeah, yeah, I mean, I've seen nailing come in a lot of different forms.

So, like you know, with, like, when my sister was married, her husband like refused to remove the alcohol from the house and was like actively drinking around her, and that's a form of enabling.

But on the other hand, I've had, like I know a couple where, um, they're both doctors the same kind of doctor and they work in the same hospital, and she would get wasted while on call and he would have to take her call, meaning like when she was at home, not while she was at work.

Well, yeah, yeah, and he would have to take her call.

Technically that's enabling, because it'll it reinforces her ability to say well, anytime I'm overwhelmed, I'll just get drunk, because I know that my husband is capable of taking this over.

Um, but it's hard to say that he's in the wrong, because it's not like he wants her to lose her livelihood.

They're married, you know or he doesn't want those patients to go without help, right, there's like so many totally reasonable reasons why he would do that.

Um, I enabled so much and you know it really does.

Let's, let's, let's actually shift the word to the word that we prefer which is unintentionally reinforced I know that's actually more of a mouthful, but I think it it takes enabling sounds so like you did it and unintentionally reinforced.

It's like I accidentally, you know, I don't know, you know, made it easier or made it better, right, I remember, oh, there's so many.

Even I'm just like looking back on what I did and it's like so shameful.

One of the bigger ways I enabled my ex-husband was I completely shielded him from, I protected him from the consequences of not working.

I mean, I blame myself a lot for it and got caught in the cycle, and it's crazy because, if there you might, it's a weird thing to feel like that you are making it easier for people to do the thing that hurts you the most or that you're most frustrated with.

So you're like, oh, it's my fault, I'm not my own worst enemy, but don't they have a choice?

Right, and um, I've talked about this before in previous episodes, but my ex-husband decided to stop working and find himself.

But finding himself usually meant smoking weed in our basement for a day and like dreaming about the things that he wants to do, and then opening up tabs of job applications.

Um, and I know that because I'd be like are you looking for a job?

He's like, yeah, I have so many tabs open.

So I was was like, oh, here you go, done Um, just accept the offers as I come in.

But, um, he, he would then get anxious and then he would smoke and and in normal life and normal world, um, that wouldn't work right, like if he goes without a job for too long, he's not going to have a house, he's not going to have food, he's going to have to figure it out and go through the discomfort and anxiety of I have to apply for a job.

It's not going to be great, you know, go through all that hardship.

And yet I was still paying the bills.

Right, I was still.

I didn't kick him out, I was still paying our house bills.

I mean it was weird because it felt like I'm just paying for the house bills that I always did and he just like moved in and benefited for that.

So it didn't feel like I was doing, adding anything.

I was just frustrated by his presence and how he was responding to it, but it was unintentionally reinforcing, right.

It's like he didn't.

He felt the anxiety of oh no, I have to look for a job and I, you know, don't know where to start.

I feel ashamed, I feel lost, anxiety, anxiety oh phew, weed makes me feel better.

And then I could go a couple more weeks like that and just pretend that you know this is a future me problem and there's no consequence.

Right, there's no, except the consequence was just me being upset, which is probably just wasn't, as strong as feeling really yeah, no I think what I'm struggling with with you know you saying that you feel shame around this and you know you shouldn't have done these things.

It's like I don't know how to put this exactly but at what point do we need to step in and be our partner's therapist, like, be our partner's behavioral plans?

Um, you know it's, it's a bit unfair on the partner now.

Now, now, fairness doesn't really matter, right, because you have to do what's effective if you want to get ahead, like fairness.

But I think it is hard to know when it's really on you to basically say you know I need to take away my support or I need to figure out how to let you feel the natural consequences of your behavior, because you won't do it, because caring about me and what I want isn't enough, like that's a hard choice to make yeah, I mean.

I think that I mean this is what we're doing at Cool of Mine right now is identifying those when, when you're like, oh okay, I'm, I'm, I'm at capacity, because sometimes these patterns happen gradually and then suddenly you're stuck Right and then suddenly you're like, oh my gosh, I think I'm even making it worse and it is tough to then change right.

Then it's tough to be like wait a minute, I was okay paying your bills before and now I'm not right.

It's just like a weird thing to introduce.

And before I go further and I just want to clarify for people who don't know, when we say reinforce, that basically means that a reinforcement is anything that makes a behavior more likely, and this is in humans, this is in animals, this is in all sorts of things.

But it's like whatever is making the thing do something more in the future.

It could be negative.

Positive reinforcement, which is a reward, like they get money, they get treats, they get a good feeling, they get attention, they get, you know, love.

Like that you get something good or negative reinforcement means taking away something bad anxiety relief, relief of responsibilities, right?

Or you know that beeping noise when you don't put on your seatbelt and then, as soon as you put on your seatbelt, it turns off, right.

So it's just adding, you know, like either something good or less bad, and that makes the behavior more likely.

And, as I was saying, that could change over time.

Right, I might've been okay with paying the bills for the first few months and then, after four years, you know, my boundaries have changed, my limits have changed, so, but I don't know.

I think I, I really I was in that position.

I was desperate for someone else to come in and say this is wrong.

Um, I wanted I get in my deepest fantasies.

I wanted someone to recognize like me as a hero, like oh, kibbe's doing this anyway and you're taking advantage of it, or you know you should make a different choice and get a job, right.

So I that's what I fantasized that someone would see how I feel like I was enabling, and yet I felt powerless to break out of it.

Right, well, I mean it often confers a negative outcome in the short term on the partner who has to stop enabling I mean like one, I mean like in the example I gave about the two doctors right, like he's, he's risking one half of his family's income there.

A lot of times it's risking the wrath of your partner.

It may be, you know, you have to stop drinking yourself or you have to change your social world and, like the way that you've always operated because you don't want you know your behavior to like enable your partners In the world of PTSD.

A lot of times enabling looks like you know the person with PTSD is going to want to start avoiding a lot of things Avoiding going out, avoiding crowds, avoiding a lot of noises and that's actually it's really frustrating for the partner because they want to be living their lives right, but in order to, in order to not enable, it feels like they have to like I just put up a huge fight, like drag their partner to this thing and then watch them be scared and uncomfortable and angry.

You know that's a lot to ask of a person.

Yeah, I mean going through not enabling, like stopping the enabling, like that could lead to so much headache, so much argument, so much like distress and chaos that you know, people might just be like I just, I just don't want to deal with that, like I just don't have the strength.

I'll just, you know, make this easier and do it.

I mean to that point.

I remember when, before my ex and I lived together, um, he was finishing his residency, um, uh, and got in trouble and they were punishing him and they said, you know, you might not be able to get your license as a doctor.

And he had called me up and said I, you know so upset, like, oh, how could they do this?

This is so terrible, I feel so bad.

But you know, so upset, like, oh, how could they do this?

This is so terrible, I feel so bad.

But you know what I don't makes me think that I don't want to be a doctor after all.

I just want to find myself and, you know, do other things.

And I remember, um, he was going to move into my house and we had made an agreement Like I talked about this explicitly that we would split the bills, we would split the contributions.

And I remember at the time when we had that conversation, he was like why would you even, why would you even question that I'm going to be a doctor?

Like how could you even think that I wouldn't contribute?

I probably would contribute whatever.

And then when he was like I'm going to, I'm going to leave medicine, I don't want to be a doctor, I'm going to do medicine, I don't want to be a doctor, I'm going to do something else, I was like oh, okay, well, I like what, what are you going to do for a job?

Because you have to get a job when you come here like or you gotta, you know, carry your own weight.

And he was like how could you do this to me?

No, I, I have you not heard me?

I need to figure it out.

Don't pressure me to be a doctor.

And I was like, okay, well then, maybe we shouldn't move in together.

And that caused so much fights that eventually I was like okay, we can't move in together, we can't.

I don't know if we could follow through this relationship.

And he spent three days calling me, crying, screaming at me, being like I can't believe you did this to me, you're abandoning me at the worst time.

Um, he was like you're abusive, like, just because I won't, I don't not going to be a doctor, you, you know, you're taking everything away.

How can you do this?

And I mean, I felt awful, like I, I just felt, I was like I felt so guilty and I was like you're right, he's right.

Like what, what's the harm in letting him hang out and live with me while we can continue our relationship and he could figure himself out?

You know, like what?

What am I being a stickler for?

I guess I had a reason?

because, yeah, because I, you know, he moved in, didn't get a job for better part of four years and it drove me nuts when, especially older people.

But people were like, well, what do you expect?

You didn't make him get a job, you let him stay at your house and let him move in without a job and without paying the bills.

And I was like, okay, so I either, you know, risk our relationship or get yelled at, you know?

So like it really feels like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Yeah, yeah that story is really upsetting.

That bastard when I think about it.

I haven't talked about him in a long time, but whenever I do, I'm just like what?

What was I thinking?

What was I?

And I, you know, like I just it.

Especially, I think it's when we talk in these vague terms of case, cases, examples it's really easy to picture the alcoholic or the, you know, the narcissist or whatever whoever we talk about, as this, like terrible person, and we're like cowering in fear.

But often no, often these loved ones are vulnerable and they're soft and they're like trying and they are sorry and they don't want to be like this and they don't want to hurt you, right, and so when he was that remorseful and that vulnerable, I was like how could I?

Okay, fine, it's just easier.

All right, I'll keep paying the bills, all right, just this, just this month because like it is valid to when somebody's really struggling, throw them a life raft, you know, like that makes sense.

That's not always a bad idea.

It's just if they, you know, build a house on that life raft then and like move in and decide to live there for four years, then it's a problem.

But it's hard to know at what point.

I mean you don't literally see them building, you know building the house there, so it's hard to know at what point you have to cut off support.

Yeah, and it can feel like sometimes it's too deep you know, I mean with PTSD, it's really hard because it's like are you like?

Okay, like, let's say, I was married to somebody with PTSD?

Everybody knows how important dates are to me.

Well, dates stop being fun if your husband is scanning the crowd and looking at the door the entire time and not being able to concentrate on you and, you know, put up a fight going.

So it's kind of like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna make him go on this date, but for what purpose?

And neither of us is going to enjoy it.

Like so, how do you?

So?

Where do you start?

What do you do?

I don't know.

I mean, I think you start when I think for most people they're going to spot their enabling, unintentional reinforcement patterns when either they are losing capacity to keep offering that support Like it's draining, to keep doing that, like I got to the point where I had no more money.

That was the point.

I was like you know, I can't keep you know supporting you, point, and I was like you know I can't keep you know supporting you, um, or when the resentment builds, when you kind of feel like you know, I feel like I've, I've extended myself past my limits, or um.

Another thing is like when you notice that the problematic behavior, whether it's drinking or not getting a job, avoidance or whatever is getting worse.

Right, I think that's that's when.

That's when usually it's, it's like, oh my gosh, we need to get this person help in general, let's get them to treatment, let's get them to therapy.

This has to change.

And then you know, then, like subtly, the loved ones need to change their um reinforcement patterns, right so it's like you know.

Then, like, subtly, the loved ones need to change their reinforcement patterns, right?

So it's like you know, when you notice that either the avoidance is just staying the same for years and years or getting worse, they're avoiding more things.

I mean, yeah, like if there's a behavior that's really unhealthy or a behavior that's really unattractive or something that you just don't want to put up with and you're on a timeline, right like, there's got to be some comfort in saying, I mean, I think it's tough, you know, between saying what am I going to have to accept of this behavior and what do I truly need to change?

Um, somebody with PTSD is probably never going to love a firework show.

I'm going to combat PTSD person.

Uh, is that that big of a deal?

I don't know.

So, you know, it could be like it could be a situation of saying we need to work on some of this.

I can have acceptance around some things.

I can have acceptance around the fact that you struggle and maybe you're not going to enjoy the same things that I do or be able to, you know, live the life I wish you could.

But we're suffering here, yeah, and that that those limits can change, right, like you could be fine with it for a while.

And then one day you're like you know what I'm done.

You know, yeah, and that that those limits can change, right, like you could be fine with it for a while.

And then one day you're like you know what I'm done.

You know, yeah, have you did you find yourself reinforcing your exes?

Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to.

I think that's so complicated, is that it's kind of like, well, what can you consider reinforcing?

You know, because you could say that me working on my thesis constantly was enabling, because it left him to his own devices all the time and, you know, allowed him to do his first choice activity, which was drugs.

But would you really really say that's his first choice activity, which was drugs, but would you really really say that's enabled?

You know what I mean.

Like I, that I'm not like directly making it, like I'm not necessarily directly reinforcing it, um, you know, I mean I suppose, like he, I would say, had an alcohol problem maybe, um, and we had a bit of a party house, you know, and so you could say that me, um, participating in the very like social events that we had, maybe like reinforced it, um, um, yeah, I don't know.

I've been hearing, especially like partners or parents of people with severe addiction that maybe, or like emotion dysregulation that ended up in the hospital and they'll be like they'll say to themselves, like did I do this?

Is this my fault?

Oh, I should have taken away the bottle.

Or like I shouldn't have done that, right, they really want to blame themselves, just because it feels like there's something that they can do and they could have done differently.

But, as you're highlighting, like it's, these behaviors are being reinforced by a bunch of stuff, not just you, right, like even in that picture of him drinking and other stuff, he, you know it would be.

What's probably reinforcing are the feelings that he got right, like the good feelings of getting drunk or high, having fun with friends, like being seen as social, being seen as fun, probably decrease in social anxiety and then you, you know, got to enjoy that party atmosphere, right.

So there's like several different things that are reinforcing there and maybe if you had done anything differently, it wouldn't have changed, like the equation of how much is being reinforced, right, you know.

I mean, I think that's the problem, you know, like he wasn't interested in changing.

And so you know, like with my sister it was clear she was an alcoholic and it was clear she was destroying her life and her husband's choice to keep up the alcoholic environment was quite questionable because she was very clearly suffering.

Um, she was very clearly putting a lot of things at risk and it was very dangerous and he hated it.

Um, it's, you know, with my ex like he didn't really have an interest in changing and it wasn't actually clear that there were massive consequences to the drinking.

And so it can kind of be unclear when to say I am going to tell you that you have a problem and I'm going to change my behavior to no longer reinforce you when you are actually not interested in doing that.

I'm not saying that that's a wrong thing to do, it's just, that's just another complication that that's a wrong thing to do.

It's just, that's just another complication, yeah, yeah, and I think that's the tough part, because we ideally would love for your preferences and your feelings to matter a lot, and sometimes they do, um, sometimes they don't, and that that's a really painful reality.

When you go up to your loved one partner, whatever, and say reality.

When you go up to your loved one partner, whatever, and say, hey, you know you're, you're getting highs, like I would like you to stop, it's getting to be a problem.

I'm really worried, blah, blah, blah.

And for that it's kind of adding punishment, it's adding that negative Like I feel bad, I, I'm going to, I'm upset with you because you're doing this.

So they go.

Oh okay, you know, it would be nice if your feelings would be the thing that they go.

You know what?

I'm not going to.

I'm not going to.

I don't want her to be upset.

I'm going to stop this.

Yeah, it wouldn't be nice.

And I mean, I think the other like paradox is that sometimes you getting upset with them just drives them to the behavior more, because now they feel negative and so they go for their avoidance, called substitute avoidance.

They substitute their bad feelings with something that will hurt the bad feelings, right?

So you know he drank a lot more when we fought, you know?

So it's not like.

It's not like expressing myself worked.

Yeah, yeah, and, and it might even be like a little bit of a rebellion to like a little bit of a power, right, if I tell you, no, you know, I say you know, don't drink.

Oh well, if I stopped drinking, like basically I'm just saying yes to whatever you want, right, like sometimes my accent became like I would talk to him about job and it'd be like, oh well, I'm not going to be a doctor just because you want, I'm like what?

So just, sometimes it's, it's a little bit of a power struggle when you, when you have to talk of, like you know, your behavior is bad or whatever yeah, I mean it's different for different things.

Right, like alcohol.

I mean it's different for different things right, Like alcohol, if somebody is actually interested in changing.

I think that conversation around enabling is different.

So, like you know, with PTSD um, I ran like a family group for a hot second and one of the things was talking about to spouses and you know, in our case they were.

They're all women because most veterans are men, so the spouses, we don't really think women.

Um, and it was mainly talking about, like, how their spouses were going to want to avoid, like avoid traumas, and one of the things we would suggest is having a talk with them about coping ahead, like look, you know, I'm unwilling to let our lives shrink to the size of a pea because of your avoidance, and I know that you know you're struggling with this too.

So let's, you know, let's plan to go and do some of these things that we've been avoiding, but we don't have to like go in with our fingers crossed.

We can go in with a plan, you know, like what can we do if you get anxious?

What can we do if there's a loud noise?

Is there a signal you can get me that says that you're overwhelmed and you need to take a break?

You know, is there a code word we can use when you really actually have to get out, like for real, this time, you know, um, what kinds of skills can we use if the anxiety goes up?

So all of these things can be done and it's a great approach.

It's just that it it entails cooperation, yeah, yeah yeah, and entails having to, uh, be on a team and being on the same page with, like um, you know what, what you're describing as shaping.

It's like we're doing a little, we're we're.

It's not all or nothing, it's not like I'm staying home forever or I'm going out to like concerts all the time, but it's like, okay, can we, can we try going to these places and then having ways that I could signal that I need to take a step, step back right, so right, or that's what I got from that.

It's like baby steps, baby steps towards um opening up your life a little bit more yeah, I mean, if you're gonna think about pushing your kid in a pool, it can be helpful to discuss it with them maybe not a child, but like, if you're about to go into something terrifying, then it's usually going to feel better if you have somebody say like okay, like let's, let's talk about what it's going to be like when you, when your emotions get really big because they're going to yeah they're very likely to, and I'll jump in.

It doesn't mean that you have to splash around in the pool drowning until you're dead.

Right, like there are things that we can do.

Addiction is just so hard because it's so.

It serves such a strong purpose and and it rewires your brain, you know.

So it's so tough because you're you're fighting in two battles or more, and so it's it's like maybe sort of less likely that you're going to get that collaboration.

That's obviously many, many people who are addicted want to get better and will collaborate.

But it's just a really it's an uphill battle and I think especially in the stages where they're in that pre-contemplation mode, they're not really sure that they are want to admit that they have a problem or want to change.

Then there's a lot of defensiveness and lying that comes up around it.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.

It's kind of relieving and sad to hear that addiction and the substances I mean they rewire, like.

When we talk about reinforcement, we're talking about the reward system.

How do we do stuff and then get a reward and what does that feel like?

And keep going right and substances change all that they make.

It hijacks the brain so that you just want that reinforcement of the drug, you just want that like it's.

It's like almost tunnel vision and so your partner, your loved ones, like please, for you know, get help, and stuff like that kind of like fade in the distance and they may want to make you happy, they might be sad that they're making, they're hurting you, but their brain is like I have to, the only reward that matters is getting high yeah, yeah, I know it's such a tough one.

I mean it looked like I've, I've.

It's hard to think.

There's so many times when my sister, during her quote-unquote sobriety, has been like asked me for just a sip of my drink, um, like at family functions or whatever.

It's really, it's really hard to be like no, oh I've given in.

Yeah, I don't think there's any good way, you know.

No, you know, be the keeper of her sobriety, I mean.

But yeah, oh, that's tricky, it's so tricky yeah, I'm trying to think if anything from like mi can be helpful.

Um, you know, I think, like trying to resist power struggles is is going to be helpful.

There's like there's an, you know, an element of dropping the rope and just trying to reflect their own motivation for things to change without trying to.

There's something called the writing reflex where, if they take a position, anybody who's trying to get better but isn't anybody who's trying to get better but isn't is struggling with ambivalence.

Typically, when people are completely committed to something, the needle will move, unless it's completely out of their control.

Right?

But you know, often when we're dealing with this ambivalence, you know I might talk on here all the time about how I want to lose 10 pounds.

If I were fully committed to that, I would probably have lost 10 pounds, because there are a lot of ways to go about that.

But the fact is I'm actually ambivalent because of the behavior change it would take.

It would mean me drinking less, eating less, eating different foods, uh, moving more, doing things I don't like, and so the problem is that ambivalence means you're basically like teetering on a seesaw, and if you, as the loved one, come in and step on one end of the seesaw by taking a certain position, especially a firm position, then they will run on over to the other side of the seesaw because that maintains the ambivalence.

We've got both arguments being stated out loud and I think that this is a problem that loved ones run into because they're like well, I have to make and you know, sometimes you do have to make your position no, you know, you do have to say like I need you to get sober, so I'm gonna work.

But convincing them is usually going to backfire so make them more stubborn on the other side, yeah yeah so instead you know trying to have like an exploring mindset of you know like okay, well, what does alcohol do for you?

You know like what, what have you noticed about it?

And they'll say some good things.

But then you know, I might say some bad things too.

And you can even say something like well, how you know?

Like, how confident are you that you can change this?

And if they're like well, a little bit, but not really, you can even say like well, okay, why, but why didn't you say you're not at all confident?

You know what makes you a little bit confident.

Oftentimes what we want to say is like why aren't you completely confident?

And that's when they're going to start coming in with saying well, because it's really hard and I don't know if I want to and I don't have to make big changes.

I don't really want to make.

But if you, if you can, if you could actually say you know well, why aren't you actually less confident?

Then it gives them a chance to say well, you know, I've done hard things in the past and I've been able to go a few days without alcohol, and you know.

So there are some like motivational interviewing techniques you can do, but generally, you know, trying to like have an a curious kind of like open stance for them to explore their ambivalence, but, like you know, trying to help them give voice to their reasons for change is helpful, but it's kind of a you know it takes like a lot of finesse.

I mean, I'm not sure that I, I don't, I don't have it down as a therapist.

But at least avoiding certain traps can be helpful.

Yeah, yeah, that's hard for the loved one who has, like you know, skin in the game.

Right, it's like as a therapist, it's a little easier to be.

Like why would you want to quit drinking, why would you want to keep drinking?

But the wife was like everything is bad when you drink.

It's a little harder to be that neutral.

But even when you just said what are the reasons for changing, that is something that changing, enabling or reinforcement patterns might do.

I think that when you're a loved one, you're of someone with we keep talking about addiction and you know we, we can talk about the supplies across the mental, mental illnesses, but if you're a loved one and go well, I'm going to have to just wait till they hit rock bottom.

Right, that's like kind of this, the old method of, like you know, take away your health, take away support, let them fall right, let them feel how bad things are, and then that would make them want to change.

And it's true, the reason why people change either get therapy or quit substance, whatever is because that the the cons outweigh the pluses.

Right, it's no longer being reinforced as strongly, right, because it's costing so much, right, you might get a little high, but then your whole life is a mess, right, and especially when that person is sacrificing the things that really matter to them, which is infuriating for a loved one.

Because if I'm like, I really want a supportive partner who contributes to the bills, like that matters to me, not to him.

Like he, he cared about other things, right, which is why we broke up, but um, he, just what would have tipped the scales into motivating him or anyone else it would be if he was like, oh, the things that I love to do I couldn't do, right, like, sometimes, you know, the thing that would get through to him was I.

He hid from his friends a lot.

He like literally didn't see them, didn't tell them what's going on and withdrew, and he was a very social guy.

So sacrificing his connection to the community, his friends, was really hard.

Um and that was way more motivating than, like me, being mad, right.

So I think when when we're talking about, like you know, having a conversation of what are your reasons for changing, you can add to that feeling, to that by you don't have to let them do rock bottom right.

You can add to that feeling, to that by you don't have to let them do rock bottom right.

You don't have to like take away everything until it's dangerous, but you can take away some of the good stuff that you unintentionally add to the problematic behavior.

Right Like walking away or taking a time out or I know that we in craft are learning how to like figuring out what to change, what reinforces to change, adding reinforcement to healthy behaviors when they're sober or healthy, and then withdrawing or taking time out from reinforcing unhealthy behaviors.

For example, like just adding compliments, acknowledging their efforts, spending quality time with them doing something that they love.

Right Like easy, cheap, fun things that you can do that you can add in right away.

You see them come home from their night out with their friends, sober, no-transcript, healthy behaviors that when they're sober, or whatever you want, yeah yeah I mean figuring out how to let them experience the consequence, the natural consequences, of their behavior, in ways that are not actively dangerous, I suppose.

But I like that idea of putting more marbles in the incentive to change column and removing them from the incentives to stay the same column to stay the same column.

Yeah, I think of it like this, with the with, you know, reinforcement, or enabling, where, if we're like, oh, did we make them drink or not drink do we?

How much power and control do we have?

It's like I said this in the client community.

I said, um, let's say you're walking with your loved one, you're hiking in a forest, for some, reason.

And you really want them to go left.

You think that going right is really dangerous.

So I'm going to clear the path, I'm going to chop down the trees and remove the rocks, maybe pave the way, maybe look at that nice view.

And then I say, hey, you know, I think that the left path is like really nice.

And then I say, hey, you know, I think that the left path is like really nice.

And then you let them choose.

You let them go left or right.

Well, I'm making it easier, I'm reinforcing the left, but they have a choice.

Right, they might think that the right has so many cool things over there that's going to totally outweigh your nice paved road.

And you might be like, wait, but you're going to get hurt in the right side.

And they could choose.

They could choose Do they like your lovely path?

Or they could choose the right path, the right right, not the correct one, the right one.

But that's how I think about it.

It's like making the path a little nicer on the side that you want them to go.

Yeah, yeah, oh God, I mean I also.

Just part of me is like if you know, if you don't want to do this, then that's okay too.

Yeah, because one of the natural consequences of that behavior might be losing you, and that sucks.

Yeah, I, we talk about how don't throw around ultimatums.

I mean the important part of all this reinforcing like, let's say, you take away the reinforcer on the unhealthy behavior, add it to the healthy behavior and that's like a boundary or that's you just like changing your behavior the important part is to be really consistent, right, like, reinforce the good stuff consistently, don't reinforce the best of consistently.

But people don't always follow through right and they go.

I'm gonna leave you if we're done, if you're gonna be, if this is gonna happen and we're done.

And then, unless it's real, unless you're saying like from a real like, I'm gonna let you know that I this is unsustainable.

If this keeps going on, I'm going to have to, you know, take space or like I'm going to have to leave.

That's different than using the ultimatum to like control their behavior out of fear, right?

So so many times, I mean in multiple relationships.

You know um and um.

It's tough because as soon as you threaten to leave but don't, then they're they actually get reinforced to keep doing the stuff that they're doing because they've learned that you're not serious.

But the thing is you actually might be pretty fucking serious and it's just that they were able to reel you back in that one time and so that, like in my case, you know, I made that threat many times and I I meant it, but the more times I didn't go through with it.

He was like she doesn't really need it, yeah, until one day, you know, he called the wrong bluff.

Yeah, I've been there too.

It's tricky.

All this like boundaries and changing reinforcement is really tough when that person does a healthy behavior and behaves and listens, just enough for you to be like, ah, good, right, like my ex would start pulling up those tabs, those job, the job search tabs, and then I'd be like, okay, good.

And then we'd go back, I'd still pay for things, because I'm like, okay, I'm, you know, we're on the way out of this hole, right.

But then, and for you, you, you know, there might be an apology, there might be a makeup, there might be some closeness, right.

And then you might be like, oh, okay, good, the bad stuff is over.

And then they do it again, right.

And then you're like, oh, why didn't I just leave?

I knew this would happen, but you gotta have some forgiveness for when you have hope and when you believe in them and believe that things change.

But I guess then you might have to change the reinforcement to seeing sustained changes, right, that was the thing that I messed up on, where you know you could reinforce like, oh, yeah, they're trying, they're doing it.

But then I'm going to really reinforce you if you keep this up for six months, if you stay sober for longer than just like a week, you know.

Yeah, you didn't mess up on anything, though, because you were in a marriage and it was his job to respect his wife's wishes.

I'm just saying that because I don't want you or anybody else to feel like, if they aren't, you know perfectly reinforcing their partner or whoever, that they're messing it up, right?

I mean, ultimately, it's like this is we do what we can, and if we want to put in the work to try to change their behavior, then, like, we try and we give it an effort, but it's not our disease, it's not our disorder, um, and they have to be the one who wants it enough, and all we can do is try to make them want it a little bit more through sneaky means, I guess yeah I also have been thinking about this more with um.

It it comes up with addiction, but it's also when someone's depressed or avoidant in general.

There's there.

There seems to be like talking to all these loved ones through Cool of Mind.

There seems to be this feeling of like um, my, my, my loved one with an illness is like a baby, like hasn't grown up right.

There's something quite reinforcing to being completely incapacitated to be completely drunk, to be completely so depressed.

You can't get out of bed and the loved one takes on like a parental caretaker role right.

And so everyone's upset, like even the person with the illness is like embarrassed that they're living with their mom's house or you know not, not you know getting up and getting a job.

However, the urge to be taken care of like a baby might be so strong, especially when, like, you're going through something hard, that that that could just be reinforcing right.

Even if you're arguing and upset, it still kind of feels like you're being like like sometimes, like there's so much psychoanalysis that could be done.

Like drinking a bottle you know what I mean.

Like you're drinking, it's a point where you're like you're being taken care of by a mommy.

Right, there's something so reinforcing about like being mommied.

Well, I think that's why sometimes enabling can actually be a devious and insidious behavior that is done on purpose.

I've seen multiple men take advantage of my sister in this way, like you know, making her more vulnerable, setting her up to be more vulnerable, because when she's more vulnerable, they have more power yeah, and that's extremely scary to watch.

Um, and you know so, if you feel as though somebody in your life is enabling you not because it's just too difficult or confusing for them to fight to battle your disorder, but because they're actually putting you in situations to weaken you, like by removing your support systems, like by giving you like a lot of, maybe, love and attention when you're incapacitated, maybe by removing your financial means, always being the one who wants to rescue right?

Like, I think it's just something to think about.

You know, like, is your, is your disorder really putting you at relational risk and is somebody manipulating that?

Yeah, yeah.

It's just like such a family systems approach and all the stuff that we talk about about how mental illness and addiction aren't just one person illnesses.

It's like the system is sick.

The disease is in the system.

How do you get care?

How do you get attention for your pain?

What does someone like to do to feel valuable and helpful in your life and take care of you?

Right, feel valuable and helpful in your life and take care of you, Right, Like, um, I, you know, I will admit that I that there was something reinforcing to me about being the one who can fix everything, who can handle it all.

Right, there was something like that was part of my identity, is like, well, I have a husband who's you know like not working and I have to do everything myself.

Like, really, there was something about it that felt I wouldn't say good, but it felt purposeful or it felt like it was something.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's tough because sometimes your person, your loved one, will, you know, will pull for your affection, attention that can make you feel important and valuable.

You just want to make sure you're not getting high on that, because it really shouldn't be a good thing if your partner or whoever is incapacitated in some way yeah and you know if that's a time when you feel most connected to them.

But that's something to examine.

It might not mean something.

Is, you know, psycho in you?

It.

It might mean that, like you come from a background where it was really hard to get softness and attention and your loved one giving that to you when they're most vulnerable feels like the only way you can get it.

You know, I mean that's like that's very valid, but it set both of you up for misery it's not interesting.

We're talking about like reinforcing, like drinking or mental health, you know, or unhealthy behaviors, but it's like now we're talking about reinforcing for us, right, like what's reinforcing in this dynamic?

Interesting yeah.

Well, I mean because I think, because we've talked about, I mean, enabling is such a it's such a wide behavioral, you know, paradigm or whatever, like it can include so many just benign things, but sometimes it is on purpose and sometimes it's not necessarily on purpose, but it is clearly problematic.

I mean, all of the times we enable it's because it does something for us, right, like if it didn't do something for us we wouldn't be doing it.

And so usually what it's doing for us is helping us avoid conflict or avoiding a headache or something.

but sometimes like reducing their distress, right, like keeping the relationship, like preventing them from leaving you, or even just like avoiding danger.

I mean, I will say that the whole rock bot like let your loved one hit rock bottom and withdraw all your support really got questioned as less popular when the opioid crisis has swept the nation.

Right, because with alcohol, if you cut off contact, stop paying the bills.

Like let them live on the streets, like maybe they'll be okay.

With opioid addiction, you stepping away and letting them experience a consequence as well, it's really deadly.

Yeah, I mean, I think it is all addiction.

I mean, how many rock bottoms has my sister hit at this point?

She lost her marriage, she lost her kids, she lost her job, she lost her medical license.

All she has to do is slam her car into another car and she's dead or suicide, right.

I mean, I've had these conversations with her too.

So it is very, very scary.

Yeah to to let them hit rock bottom, and maybe it is better to drive yourself crazy trying to keep them from that than to to let that happen yeah I'm not gonna make a call on that, you know like yeah, in craft they say you know if it's really going to risk their safety or your safety, don't do it.

Um try, try changing other ways of reinforcing, like adding more good stuff to when they're sober and I know that's hard, but it may point your brain to seeing other things that you can control besides the big thing, right Besides, for, like, should I pay for their rent or leave them homeless?

It's like, well, maybe that's not the thing that you change right now, cause that would be too risky and too uncomfortable.

Maybe do other things like quality time, compliments, um some other kind of reward in the meantime.

But it's tough.

Yeah, there's no, there's no right answer, unfortunately it's just I.

But it's tough.

Yeah, there's no, there's no right answer, unfortunately it's just.

I think it's something to kind of explore and think about and try to get some I don't know some perspective on.

Like I think a lot of times it's very hard for people to set boundaries and they feel like they're hurting other people when they do it, but sometimes it's the best thing you can do for another person and for yourself.

So it's definitely a long game and it entails some short-term discomfort.

That's very legit, all right.

Well, guys, if you want to enable us to keep doing this podcast, you know what to do.

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