Kalpna Woolf (intro) Southall was not a rich place. It was white working class people. These people worked in factories too, alongside us. They weren't rich, so it was really important that we all understood each other's challenges. Neil Maggs I'm Neil Maggs, and this is Bristol Unpacked, speaking to fascinating Bristolians on topics where others may fear to tread. Brought to you by the city's community owned media, the Bristol Cable. Kalpna Woolf What we do is we create events. We ask people to come from all over the city, come and sit, talk, eat and share food with us, and when we do that, people actually start connecting. Neil Maggs You're listening to the launch of a project called the International Peace Cafe way back in 2016 this aim to bridge cultural divides in Bristol through food, inviting people from different communities to cook and share dishes from their culture. It was a project put together by today's guest is seen by many as a champion of integration in the city. It's Kalpna Woolf. She is very well known across the city of Bristol, in particular for her work around diversity. And she is the founder of 91 Ways, which is an organization using the power of food to connect with the 91 language communities in the city. She's also a former television producer specializing in food documentaries, and then went quite high up in the BBC, and she set up the BeOnBoard initiative, which is about diversifying boardrooms in organizations and institutions so they're representative of the communities in which they serve. And she is a governor and board member at the University of West of England since 2018 and she recently received an honourary doctorate from the University of Bristol. One of the reasons we're getting her on the show is she's just been appointed the High Sheriff of Bristol. What the hell is a High Sheriff? I hear you ask. Well, I sort of have a slight indication, though I don't really know. All I know is it's nothing to do with westerns. It's nothing to do with cowboy hats. We'll find out what it is, though. Enjoy. Neil Maggs Hi. Kalpna, oh, hi, hi. How are you? Kalpna Woolf Neil, I'm very well. How are you doing? Neil Maggs Yeah, I'm doing all right. I'm busy. Yeah, you have been busy. You've just been named High Sheriff, haven't you? Kalpna Woolf Yeah, I'm High Sheriff of the city and county of Bristol. Neil Maggs That's exciting, then you must be excited. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, it is exciting. Actually, yeah, it's and it's very varied and very interesting. I feel very honoured. Neil Maggs How did you get chosen? Kalpna Woolf What happens is there's a nomination panel made up of people from the community, people from business and all sectors, they look at names, and then their names go up to the Privy Council. Then you're chosen, and then it comes back down, and then you're actually chosen five years before you start! Neil Maggs Did you have to keep it quiet for five years? Kalpna Woolf You keep it quiet, and then it is announced at the Royal Courts in London. Once it's out there, there's an opportunity to learn from the current High Sheriffs and so on. Neil Maggs So you had, like, a handover period? Kalpna Woolf Yeah, you go to you can go to the quarterly meetings, and then you can learn from each other, then you know what it all entails. Neil Maggs We'll get into that bit in a little bit more depth later. But for those who don't know that, I mean, it sounds quite high faluting, doesn't it? What is a High Sheriff? And what do they do? Kalpna Woolf Yeah, yeah, it does sound absolutely so, I mean, the history of the High Sheriff, it was been around for at least 1,000 years. I think there were royal officials appointed to enforce the king's interests in a county, and in particular collection of revenues and enforcing law and order. Thank goodness, I don’t have to do that. They did have a lot of powers, and actually the mentioned in the Magna Carta. So it's been around a long time and but I think over time, it's changed, you know, because obviously there's police and there are other law enforcement now, and which makes much more sense. The current role is independent, it's non political. It's a royal appointment, and it's only for one year. Neil Maggs Let me, let me just clarify that. So it's appointed by the essentially, the royal family, by the king, by the king. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, it's only for one year. And. It really does feel like an honour. I think there are only about 55 High Sheriffs in England and Wales, so a small group. If there are royal visits to the county, you're there, also to support the judiciary. So if there are any High Court judges. You know when they come from London and other places, you're there to support them, this is where the connection still exists from before. You know, you're there to support and help the police and prison services and any other agencies involved with crime prevention. Neil Maggs So there is a crime prevention element, because it sounds kind of very Clint Eastwoody, doesn't it? The High Sheriff, you know, guns at dawn and all that kind of stuff. Kalpna Woolf I can confirm there is no gold star to put on your shirt. There are no cowboy hats, no spurs and no horse. Neil Maggs I wouldn't have accepted the role if I knew that, surely that's what you do it for! Kalpna Woolf Yeah, you know, that's what I felt five years ago. But slowly they reveal this to me. But now, you know, the High Sheriff's roles change quite a lot. It's a really good opportunity, I think, to give active support to the judiciary, the police and so on. But I think it also is an opportunity to shine a light on all incredible work in communities. You get a chance to visit all that work. You're there, by the way, to support the Lord Lieutenant as well. And I think it's really about helping showcase and support in any way, the voluntary organizations in the county. I love that. You know that I love going out. What's the Lord Lieutenant? The Lord Lieutenant is the head of the lieutenancy in Bristol for and Anne is an appointment by the king as well. Neil Maggs Is that Peaches Golding? She's been doing that role for quite some time, hasn't she? I think they have to do it for much longer. That's a royal appointment. It's like the regional royal representative. If I got that right, yes, yes, she is. We'll get into that a bit more later. But before that, I want to sort of, you know, and I guess this is why you were asked to do the role, because of your pretty groundbreaking work in the community, in particular, with a couple of things, which you want to talk about is your 91 Ways project, and also BeOnBoard. Let's talk first about 91 Ways – that is kind of based around food, and that's around celebrating Bristol, which essentially has 91 language communities, and your mission was to use the power of food to build stronger, more connected communities. And I think that's probably how I know you really from seeing you at events with, you know, great food, and I like food. And many people could say that and see that when they see me, this is your passion, isn't it? Kalpna Woolf My passion is to ensure that we know we're human beings. Everybody feels that they can connect with each other. Doesn't matter what language you speak. I love the fact that we've got 91 language communities in Bristol. I think it's a cause for celebration, and I wanted to find a way of doing that, but I also wanted to find a way of people understanding each other's stories, because that's how you make a connection, and food obviously is a great way to start that conversation. You know, because when you hand a plate of food to somebody, when you share food with somebody, it already says a lot, doesn't it? It says like, Oh, hello, we're joining in this together. It really comes from my background, because I grew up at a time in London when there was a lot of discord in communities, and people thought that they didn't connect with people who didn't look like them, didn't speak the same language, and we don't want that in our city. We want a city that everybody feels they belong, they've got something to say, they can connect. I think that way we have a really strong city that's just that's the way to bring the city to grow together. Neil Maggs Yeah – and you said about London, so you your heritage is Indian, and you came to the UK as a young child. Is that right? Kalpna Woolf Yeah, I came to the UK when I was six years old, and we arrived in London in Southall, my family was from Delhi. What happened was that my parents were brought up in what is our Pakistan. They were Hindus in Pakistan, and when the partition happened, they fled to India as refugees, actually, and then lived there for a bit. And my father fought for the British army on the Burmese front. And so, you know, he had a real connection. So when we were children, and he really wanted to make sure we had a good education and more good life. And he thought, well, we'll go to, you know, England. I was only six years old. Then when we arrived, it was very white community. We were the first wave of immigrants. And you've got two sides which always happens. One is that, you know, you get. People who are really welcoming, and then you've got others where people are reticent, I think, more than anything else. So our community wasn't bad. People were like, well, hang on a minute. We don't know who you are, but I think what happened at that time, what was going on politically, was they had the skinhead movement, you had, you know, all of that. And that was sort of almost, you know, inflaming things. I remember in our street, our white neighbours, they they weren't horrible at all. They were just like, Okay, we don't understand who you are, you know, and what you know, where you're from, and are you like us? You know, all these questions that people ask and and we could build relationships on the ground. But what was really frightening, what was going on nationally, and the fact that actually, as often outsiders that would come into our communities and cause a lot of havoc, I absolutely remember that. But we were also aware of what was going on globally, too. Remember, we had the apartheid era was still on then, you know. So there was a lot of discussion, lots of sort of, you know, people coming together and saying, hang on. What sort of world do we want here? You know, can we accept a world where people are treated differently because of their colour or their language, or what part of the world they come from, you know. And I mean, I, you know, I'm very, very clear about the fact that, no, we are all human beings. I always start from that. I miss, you know, whatever age I was. But yes, there was a lot going on, but it was sort of local, national and global. Neil Maggs Sure, yeah, of course. And I think there's an interesting point you make about the National Front coming in from outside communities, that there's often a presumption that there are kind of racist white people in multicultural communities, which, of course, there are, but often that is exaggerated and stoked by outside forces. And that's even happening today a little bit. I think with some of the far-right hotel protest We know when that happened in Bristol, a lot of those people came from outside the city. It seemed to be quite an organized campaign by far right groups back in the 60s and 70s to create tension, to sort of shake the jar a little bit. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think I have to say that I do a lot of talks about humanity and bring people together. And people you know, do say to me, Oh, come on. You must have met some type of people. And you know what? I go around the whole city, our city. I go to Hartcliffe or Withywood, I go to Easton I go to Southmead. I have had people ask me questions, but I've never had any horrible stuff. I've taken refugee women to the outskirts of Bristol. We've mixed people up all the time. So I know absolutely people are curious. Quite right that, you know, just like we I want to tell my story. I want to hear the stories of people. But you know what I love about when I go to Knowle West? People tell you about the stories about what Knowle West looked like. I mean, it's quite different from what it is now. You know, it used to be woods and forests, and there used to be game, there used to be a lot of poaching I hear! But really, I love hearing all that, you know, and people want to tell you that… Neil Maggs Yeah I think that's a great starting point. It's just the richness of culture and heritage kind of generally in different kind of communities. And I'm interested to know, when you moved from London, did you move as an adult or as a child to Bristol? Kalpna Woolf So just go back on your point. The reason I named the charity 91 Ways is it was about actually saying, this is the richness that we have in our city. Did you know, look at an amazing and so I always talk about it, yeah, I came to Bristol. I used to, I worked at the BBC, and the BBC was restructuring, and they moved our department in one of his restructures, and move documentaries from the South East to the South West. Neil Maggs How old were you then? 30 something? So your formative years were in London, I guess. Would you say you then went on to journalism that probably shaped and framed your thinking around why you wanted to create 91 ways. But you mentioned being in the BBC. You were a producer of food programmes, weren't you as well? Kalpna Woolf Yes, I produced food programmes. I left the BBC as head of production… I was the highest up in the business side. I started at the BBC as a temp. I went in for two weeks, then they said, Could you come for another week and another week and another week? And then it was 25 years! Neil Maggs And you worked in the BBC when you came to Bristol and initially, over at Whiteladies Road. Kalpna Woolf I did, yeah, where I climbed. I'm a production manager, production exec. I worked on documentaries, I worked on features, I worked on, you know, daytime TV. I worked in natural history, and then I ran the whole of the staffing, the business and technology side of both departments here in Bristol. Neil Maggs Oh, wow. I knew you produced programmes focused on food, but I didn't realize that you were such a big cheese! I feel a bit intimidated now! A sip of my water and slow down my the way I talk. I'm going to soften my accent and do more of my BBC voice like this. And when did you give up journalism? Kalpna Woolf When I left the BBC in 2013 I worked in couple of independents for two or three years, and then I just knew I wanted to do something different. I loved it, and I was so fortunate to be part of it. But no, I you know, when you've done something for quite a long time, you think I need some use my energies elsewhere. Neil Maggs Sure. How long into that was it before you set up 91 Ways? Kalpna Woolf So when I was at the BBC, there were four heads of departments, and we wanted to do something that was closer to the community. And this is where the food more of the food idea came in. And we decided that we would put loads of people in who understood food. And we said, how can the BBC get closer to the community? We knew food was a way, so we set up something called Bristol Food Connections festival. Do you remember it Neil? Neil Maggs I think I do, yeah, yeah. So where was that? Where did that take place? Kalpna Woolf So the first one, there was a place in the centre, near Millennium square. We did loads of things about food and children and chefs came along and then we but we also did some things in the communities. And then, because I had left by then, I helped set up the second one, and I really enjoyed it. But then I thought, actually, do you know what I want to do, something that's really impacting people's lives and bringing people together? And you know, festivals are great, but festivals can only often be in one place. Neil Maggs Just to give some context, the Bristol Food Connections festival that was 2014 2015 2016 2017 and then you've moved on to something else. I didn't realize BBC were involved in that. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, they were at the beginning, and because they used to have the food and farming awards here as well. And I think they did that for two, three years, and then they moved it. It was all to do with funding as well, you know. So there was a big thing, but what I knew that we couldn't do what I wanted to do in a festival in the centre of the city. I wanted to make sure that I had opportunities to meet people all around the city, and you can't do that. So that's when I set up 91 Ways. It's our 10th anniversary this year. Neil Maggs Is it? I mean, I could lie and say that's why we got you on, because I knew it was the 10th anniversary, but I didn't. So carry on. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, the 10th anniversary. And so in 2015 it was Bristol, Green Capital. I went to them, and I said, Look – this is great, food was one of their themes – but actually, do you know what? We're never going to go and talk to people, because you are just going to do things around the centre. Let's do something. I want to do something outside. I want to be able to use food to talk, to connect people. They liked the idea. And then I set up 91 Ways. I actually didn't know what I was going to do with it. I just knew my upbringing in Southall – when you've been part of communities where there's discord and terrible things happening, it sort of stays with you. And when I see Bristol, which is an incredible city, I thought, well, how can we find ways of actually ensuring that we get these connections, that we have this trend, that we build relationships? I like to say, we build bridges, not walls. So that's what I wanted to do. Neil Maggs And so it's kind of using food as the power to connect to communities. And I'm interested in that people tend to go two ways. Really, if they grew up or had primary experiences of division. Often, the very thing that drives them to do the positive change stuff is actually sometimes a bit of pain and a bit of, I guess, negative experience that propels them forward. Southall was quite famous. There was quite an infamous racist attack. Wasn't there for an 18 year old student, yes. Gurdip Singh Gurdeep, Singh Segar, if I said it right, that sparked an entire kind of movement. And I just wonder how most of those formative experiences just make you mindful of why it's community cohesion is important. Kalpna Woolf Well, you live in a community. I mean, I saw all of that. Oh, yeah, bricks were thrown through our windows. And it wasn't just south or, you know, when I went to university, I went to university in the East End of London by then, and those years, you know. And there was a lot of talk, you know, a lot of, how do we change things. It was like a ticking time bomb, or I knew, and when, when something happens, you know, to a young man two roads away from where we lived, was it? And of course, you know, we were a tight community, because, you know when people come together, you know when you come from a different place, you tend to sort of hang on to each other a bit. And because we were new, we didn't know how to stand up, if you like, at that point. Neil Maggs Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that, because it was actually, I mean, this is not as well documented as some of the protests in the riot in the black British community, in the Asian community, as much. I don't think there. You know, there's been some coverage, as I said, documentary quite recently. But what was really fascinating about this was that this was also a bit of a generational divide in your community, between how your parents reacted to this stuff and how your generation did. Kalpna Woolf Yeah. So what I've learned from my father, he went to war, so he became the opposite. He was very peaceful. He became a Mahatma Gandhi supporter. So when he came here and he saw all this, he said, Okay, we will peacefully talk to people. He opened the doors to people. All our white neighbours, come and eat, come and talk, come. And that's where 91 Ways comes from. But he also joined the Indian workers association. He worked with councillors, you know, he worked with the council. He worked with other groups to say, actually, what can we do to strengthen our position? So he, you know, and they did a lot. They, I know there was a bit in the documentaries, Indian workers association did a lot in terms of actually standing up in a way which said, Actually, okay, we're here. We want to have our temples. We want good jobs. Because, of course, the other thing that was happening was that you'd go for a job, and you didn't get the good jobs, you know. And my father worked in a factory for 25 years, night shift, and yet he was very qualified, wrote English, spoke English, but it wasn't recognized. My mother was same, and she started her work life as washing dishes, you know. Neil Maggs So these are highly, highly skilled, educated people. Being the only jobs you can get are in kind of manual labour jobs, essentially. And that was quite common amongst, well, minorities generally, in that era, wasn't it? Kalpna Woolf That was quite common and but, you know, I think what my parents approach was, okay, let's work hard. And then they did. They tried to change minds, hearts and minds, you know, charts by opening our doors and saying, Come and see who we are, because we aren't, you know, some ogres and we're not trying to take your jobs. We're not. We actually are good human beings. You know, we want the same things as you want for your families, and they change minds by joining, you know, councils supporting people to get better jobs, talking to even employers about, you know, the value of employing people who have these skills. And my father, basically, so he became a foreman, and his employer asked, allowed them to help people write their applications and also do interviews, so it felt more equal, so it didn't feel like no depending on the name. So they did quite a lot that way, the way and what did I do? I went to university because I knew I needed to get a good education so that I could get a good job so that I could get myself in a position where I wasn't vulnerable financially, or in any other way that I could feel. Neil Maggs Education affords you power, doesn't it? And if you've seen how your community and your parents would have been treated as, seen as being powerless. How authorities wield that power? Kalpna Woolf Yeah, and you don't want to be in that position. And also overriding all this was, I wanted to help my family. All of us knew that we were in it together with the community, and not just the Asian community, South Asian community, but also because, don't forget our communities, that Southall was not a rich place. It was white, working class people. There was a cattle market in Southall. When we came there were, you know, these people worked in factories too, alongside us, they weren't rich, so it was really important that we all understood each other's challenges. Were quite actually in the same boat, you know, Neil Maggs Yeah, and that's possibly what's changed a bit now, or certainly the rhetoric is, or how it's portrayed in the media, is that multicultural class solidarity of understanding. You know, there is a shared experience. There seems to have been sort of a wedge. Seems to have been driven through that a little bit. And it's interesting that you talk about food being the vehicle for that, because I think sometimes people probably see Bristol as, you know, maybe your 91 languages project as being, oh, that's a sort of nice multicultural kind of way of celebrating diversity. But maybe it wouldn't speak to white working class people outside of that kind of Bristol bubble. But it sounds to me as if actually your formative experiences are it's including those people. It's including every, every, everybody in this class, ethnicity, wealth, health, yeah, Kalpna Woolf it absolutely has to. I mean, it is, for example, when we had a 100th event, there was a Bristolian supper club, it was really important to me that that was, you know, like that. But I think, you know, if I firmly believe that if we don't work together, all of us will never create the city that we want to create. And for every single one of us, and I absolutely we have shared experiences, the food is an interesting… you know, it's there. Neil Maggs Do you think food can unite communities? Can it also be a divider? Obviously, eating healthily financially. You know, you go into nice restaurants. It can be a sort of class issue, a bit where people can feel not part of that. So how can we ensure that everybody feels united by food? Kalpna Woolf So sometimes people think 91 Ways, oh, it's something that, you know, samosas and steel bands… Neil Maggs It's a woke kind of, right on thing… Kalpna Woolf It bloody well, isn't, you know, okay, every single one of us has a part to play in our future. We can only do that if every single one of us is included. Every single one of us has a chance to tell our story, every single one of us has the same opportunity. I really, really believe that. Neil Maggs An interesting component of that, I think, though, and I'm in a position where I've got in my own sort of family, different heritage and stuff like that, but obviously within my own, specifically British white working classes, that actually, I think in South Asian communities, probably in Somali communities, Sudanese communities, Caribbean communities, food is used as quite a connector. I think even some of the religions, like, if you go to a Sikh wars in Hindu temples, food is sort of part of the actual experience there. You know, people get free food. It's handed around. I wonder if that's been lost a little bit within white working class communities, as in food as a ritual. You know, I go to my friends houses where everyone sits around a table. We try and do that, and Black friends of mine, Asian friends of mine. And it still is that you go to somewhere white friends, and everyone's just eating dinner on a on a tray in front of the TV. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, yeah, I think so we use food in two ways for us. Okay, food is a connector, and it works, you know. So if I go to Whitchurch, or, you know, I always take some food with me, and guess what, people come and sit down, and they just sit and chat, or we might cook together, and, you know, it's amazing. So that absolutely does the connecting and so on, but they may not have the social ritual at home, but you might not cook it, and you might not eat it the way some other communities do. But I tell you, what, if it's your birthday, or if it's your Nan's birthday, or if it's a wedding or celebration, what do you do? You say, Yeah, let's all go out. Let's fell down. Let's get fish and chips. Let's do, say, a Deliveroo, you know? Neil Maggs Yeah, let's have a birthday cake. Kalpna Woolf Suddenly, that's the glue, you know? Neil Maggs Well, that's that phrase, isn't there? Let's break bread together. It's kind of, you know, let's sit down and yeah, I get it. I get it. Kalpna Woolf So during Covid, it was really interesting when Covid hit. So all our events are, you know, face to face. So Covid hit, and I'm sitting in my office exactly where I am now, and I'm thinking, what do we do? And of course, we can't get any grants because we can't do anything. So now we've got our money, we can't support our communities. And then within a few days, my phone starts ringing, and I get phone calls from different communities saying we have no food. We have no food and we've lost our jobs. What do we do? So we start signposting them to food and and then we suddenly hear from communities who say we have food but we don't know how to cook it. And of course, we knew all along that while we have a great city, you know, we also have this incredible food inequality in our city. You know, we have big communities who don't have enough food, or they are unable to cook their food because they have never had the skills nobody's taught them. School stopped teaching that, you know, two generations ago. So, you know, you've got people reliant on, you know, buying packed food and so on. So we thought, well, hang on a minute. We're trying to nourish our communities through connection. Our communities need nourishing in terms of good food as well. And so we thought, okay, we are going to make our 91 Ways dual purpose. So we're going to nourish people through connection, and we're going to nourish them through equipping them with skills, knowledge, making sure that they have access to food that they would like to eat. If you haven't got good food, it's really hard to do well, you know, because it screws up your brain and, you know, our bodies and so on. So you're already set back. So our mission is while we are connecting people, and we are bringing food that we're giving people opportunities to learn, to come together and so on. And that's really important. Neil Maggs Let's talk about BeOnBoard, yeah, which is an organization which you set up in 2018 This is about having boards of trustees that are more representative and diverse, yeah, obvious question. Why is that important? Kalpna Woolf So it's interesting. This connects completely with 91 Ways. So we go around the city, we talk about, we want everybody to feel they belong. We want everybody to do, as you know, really, equally well. And people would say to me, well, that's okay. But you know, when I look at, you know, people in power, people making decisions about us, there's nobody there that looks like us. And I thought, well, we've got to do something about that. And why it matters is actually because we want people who are making decisions about our housing, our roads, our education, where investment goes, who understand the impact of those decisions. You know, and we know when things don't work, but when you've got people on those positions, you can actually talk about that. I think that diversity of knowledge and perspectives is really critical that way we can get things right for so many of our communities. So that's why I set up BeOnBoard. Neil Maggs Obviously, and we've seen this in recent times in politics, that diversity of somebody's, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, whatever, doesn't necessarily mean diversity of opinion, does it? And I think people maybe made that mistake, that it did, and we saw that, you know, we've seen that with Priti Patel, you know, you'd think somebody that came to this country would be a bit more sympathetic to migrations, but she obviously isn't. I think people have been burnt a little bit on some of this diversity stuff of late, and it sort of opened people's eyes that actually just because somebody is of a certain ethnicity or race doesn't always mean that they share the same views and opinions. Kalpna Woolf That's why, if you listen back to what I said as the diversity of perspective, I think that critical. There are loads of people from different ethnic backgrounds and class who've done really well, but who become disconnected from what's happening currently in people's lives. I talk about food poverty. I don't face food poverty more, but I make it clear that when I go to, you know, when I write, write a grant application that is written by communities, to say, This is what's really important, so that I absolutely agree with you. Neil Maggs Do you see that there? And I would that wasn't necessarily a comment on your organization, but do you see maybe some people miss the beat a bit? It can become about sort of box ticking protective characteristics, rather than actually getting kind of meaningful social justice. Kalpna Woolf I see it and I it disappoints me. That's not what it's never going to work. So what we have on BeOnBoard is a we people come to us and they say, We have skills. We offer those two boards if they're interested. And this skills and knowledge thing is really important, because otherwise, what's happening, of course, is important. People tend to come from the same backgrounds, the same skills, and you know, we want to make that wider and broader. Neil Maggs But yes, I mean, and that's for the very reason of those skills, isn't it, as you say, is that experience? So a broader range of experience usually gets a broader range of perspective and opinion and makes an organization functionally better. You know, it's a bit of a bugbear in politics and even in my game, in the media, that it is dominated by people from certain sectors of class and definitely race. But, you know, I think that is true. I think in terms of boardroom there's a thing they call is it, called it snowy peak syndrome. Is that? Right? Have you heard that phrase, which is that there is a lack of board members, statistically, from Black and ethnic minority backgrounds. So that is also important to work on that basis as well. Kalpna Woolf I think you know what we want is what BeOnBoard does also is train people, because we want people to have the voice to talk about their experience too, because you're absolutely right. You can turn up in one of these boards and you can think, hang on a minute. There's nobody here that speaks like me. Is it okay for me to say this? You know, have these people ever been to any of the places that I'm talking about? And so that experience and making people feel really empowered is very important to us too. This is a place of power where decisions are made for everyday people in their everyday lives, right? We need people from every day to be in those boards and that. That's how you change a city? Neil Maggs Well, particularly if you're talking about issues that do affect people outside of that, and you're making, you're talking about them, and you're making decisions about them, yeah, yeah. Kalpna Woolf Well, you're making, you know, you could be making a decision about a bypass, you know, or big things, or where is the next big school going to be? Well, you need to know from that. You know somebody from there. You know somebody can say, Hang on a minute. Do you know that what this means? I mean, I've been to places in Bristol, and I thought, what the hell's this huge road doing in the middle of this? You know, it's basically cut this community in half. But it worked on paper, and they got money on it, and there was nobody in from that community, or who understood what it was like to live in those sort of places. To say, actually, do you know what you've done to us? Neil Maggs Yeah, and people are quite detached from that, aren't they, so to hear that directly from somebody that has a closer connection or a more lived experience is really important. But what is also important, which you just touched on as well, is not just getting people in the room, which is step one. Step two is, as you say, training them to understand how to navigate that space. And then the third part is keeping them there. Retention rates aren't great in diversity initiatives generally, because because of that lack of support and training while you're there. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, yeah, it is a problem. I think that's why you've got to go back to the organization say, why are you doing this? So on BeOnBoard, we never work with anybody who just says, I would like some diverse people on board with So could you tell us why? Where is it in your strategy, where it should be in the heart of your business strategy, and what will it mean to you? You know, so we do a lot of work with the chairs and and the boardroom first, and then we help them recruit, because we don't want to do a tick box. We've got incredible candidates. We don't want to lose those candidates who bring in their skills and then they feel marginalized, or they feel a failure. We're not a recruitment company, yeah? Neil Maggs Because if you don't do that bit around the why? Yeah, you do then get, sometimes, some quiet resentment from people that maybe don't fit into a protected characteristics you're just giving you. This is, you know, your handouts for people… Kalpna Woolf 40:22 It has to feel valuable to everybody, otherwise, you know, you're disenfranchising your organization. That's not what it's about. It's that, you know, we're here and together we are and what's our value? The value is we've got this incredible range of skills coming, all going to do really well out of this. Yeah, sure. So that is a big piece of work with people. Neil Maggs Yeah, I think it is. And obviously there's been, you know, quite a well documented backlash to some of this stuff. Trump's gone through all these sort of DEI funding things, hasn't he in America to any strict funding of lots of places and stuff. What's your feeling around that? Why are we in that slightly pushback to diversity? And you know, what does DEI stand for? Is it diversity, education, equity and equity? Yeah, yeah, that. You know that actually people, some people, I don't know, and there seems to be a movement against it a little bit at the moment. What do you think that is? Kalpna Woolf Yeah, I think there is a movement. I think sometimes people don't understand the value of it. And you know, some way it hasn't worked, but the examples where it has worked, people aren't talking about that, you know, I mean, what was happening in the past? So, you know, they say that the fall of the Lehman Brothers, all these banks and so on, was because you had the same thinking group think, basically, you know, you need the opposite of that to navigate this incredible, unpredictable, economic and social world that we've got, Neil Maggs Is there not be a group think in people that adhere to DEI stuff and critical race theory stuff, that there's a bit of that that goes on as well. Isn't there anyone who has a view outside of that can be slightly other debate at times? Kalpna Woolf Oh, well, I hope not. I don't like group thinking. Any forms will know, though, and it goes back to what you said about diversity of thought. Neil Maggs Yes, yeah. Otherwise, it's sort of decorative, isn't it, in a way. What about the suggestions that some people, and there's an increasing movement towards this, that class should be recognized as a protected characteristic. For those who don't know what protected characteristics do that protected characteristics that's specifically around ethnicity, gender, disability, neurodiversity, but with class, it's kind of out of that. And I wonder if, if class was and there was perhaps more emphasis upon that, then that could actually mitigate and push back a bit against some of the sort of populist stuff. Because I think that's where it might be, where that's coming from. Kalpna Woolf I firmly do believe that we have to understand people's all of their characters. And just because there's a protected characteristic list doesn't mean it's everybody who we are. I think we need to understand people's backgrounds, knowledge, their opportunity, lack of opportunities, the historical context, too, of people, this is where equity comes in. Really, you can't change things for some families in one minute. You have to understand what it means for generations of people who've been left behind or who, you know, have had to live in areas where the schools are not good, and, you know, where they've only been signed posted to low level jobs. So for me, I It's that I don't look at the I don't know how many 14 protected characters is really bad. I don't know how many I look at actually, the fact that we have a city here of people and a lot of people with challenges, how do we support every single one… Neil Maggs Some organizations maybe have been a bit clunky with this stuff, well meaning, well intentioned. And that can affect organizations like yourself, because people will make an assumption that it's a kind of this is not for me. This is only talking to people of colour, or this is only talking to people that aren't like my experience. And I think that that's the challenge that we're facing at the moment, really, isn't it, which is, how can diversity initiatives be made to feel that they do connect with people from all backgrounds? Kalpna Woolf Now, I think we've got to talk about these things. But I think the problem at the moment is that there are too many labels and stereotypes. I spend my entire time going round talking about human beings, people, their experiences. So I think we need to absolutely elevate all of the challenges and explain them with classes. And it is a challenge that has been there for many, many generations. And, you know, we see it in our city. We see it so much, and we need to do something about it. Neil Maggs Yeah, because, I guess the obvious thing, if you're a black person that goes to Eton. Yeah, you know. Or if you're a white person that goes to a council estate in, I don't know, South London or West London, then your experiences are going to be different. And it's not, yeah, it's probably going to be harder, harder for the white person. I think it's really interesting to me, because I think with the, I don't know if you ever listened to made the programme on whiteness for Radio 4, which spoke a lot about very early on, actually, before lots of these terms came over here. So about six years ago, obviously, it's quite obviously it's quite an American thing at that time, around the notion of white privilege and white fragility and that kind of stuff, and you know, huge amounts of truth to that, and around even white supremacy. And the sense was that actually those people that were white, that benefited from that kind of stuff, probably were of a certain class stratosphere. But lower down the kind of chain, their probably day to day experiences are probably more similar to people from the majority minority, which goes back to what you were saying about safer where you live there amongst people of all you know, white, black, South Asian, when you all shared that experience together. Of course, you need to think about difference and celebrate difference, but maybe we need to start to think a little bit more about similarity. Kalpna Woolf Well, we don't celebrate difference in that word. We talk about our similarities. And I think that it's really just going back to, I'm saying we all want the same thing, Neil Maggs but I'm talking generally, not specifically… Kalpna Woolf And I think it's really important, you know, that we create an atmosphere for people to be able to talk about these things. You know that actually, you know, my father's, you know, ambition was absolutely the same as the working class white people in his road. So when I go to, you know, some places in our city here, I know we need to amplify that. I think the problem is, is that you know that this is too much stereotyping, and there's not real understanding of what people's lives are like beyond that. And we've got to talk about that, because I think a lot of people are being forgotten. You know, we were called immigrants when they came. Now, I think we're migrants. I have no idea. You know, yeah, but I often tell my story Neil, because I want people to know that, because there's a label of my head, it's actually quite a different story that you might think same as if I go to because… Neil Maggs Let me just jump in on that. There is actually because I think the assumptions austerity, assumptions or stereotypes could be, you know, you're obviously and you come, you come across it as a, you know, very professional, educated, articulate, South Asian woman that that's done well for herself, where it's high up in the BBC, you know, there could be an assumption of your background and who you are, where you come from, but when you start, yeah, you know. So I think people can be guilty of that. And actually, where I would say, with the class dynamic, there is a sort of second, third generation immigrant population that have kind of risen through the classes. Pretty much on the whole 95% would have grown up, you know, in working class estates when they arrived, that have come through that journey which gets forgotten about a little bit in this rhetoric. Kalpna Woolf Yeah, I agree with you. Absolutely agree with you. It gets completely forgotten about. And that's, that's why this sharing stories is really, really critical for me, you know, and not just the stories of now, I mean, we go, you know, we might go to a lunch club in Southmead for over 70s, and they'll tell you the story of what it was like, you know, for their parents, who were, you know, coming out, the war and so on. You forget the bombing, and forget all of the and the hunger, you know. I mean, this is the other thing. I mean, I grew up we were hungry, or five kids, you know. So I sort of know what it's like. But absolutely, I think this is that I don't want to make assumptions about people. The world is full of assumptions. And in our city, you know, what's great about our city is that is doable, you know, we haven't it's not millions of people. We should know each other really, really well. Neil Maggs And you're right. It's about it's about being in the room, I think, and sharing stories. And I think maybe that there aren't the forums so much for that in Bristol, however, smooth segue into your High Sheriff role, that's kind of part of the high sheriff role, isn't it? Is getting out and about, talking to people on the range of communities all across the city, and I guess your kind of background is led you to be in a perfect position to do that. My first question about that is, we've had a few people on the show with different ceremonial city roles, and lots of them have spoken about the strange, dare I even say, ridiculous, outfits they have to wear. What outfit do you have to wear a High Sheriff. Is it one of those slightly weird robe things? Kalpna Woolf I don't have a robe. I mean, I'm so lucky because the men have to wear tights and all sorts of things, you know. But do they, Yeah, funny, they like it, but we have to wear, I mean, we don't have to wear anything. But there is a, sort of, like a women's way of things. So I have just have a coat. I have, I have a bit of lace. There are you can wear it. Do you know what a Shabbat is? Neil Maggs No, I don't. No idea. Kalpna Woolf I didn't even know what these words were. It goes around your neck, and it's got lots of ruffles. You know? It's a bit, sort of like tiered ruffles, starting with Scarlet Pimpernel or something, right? Okay, yeah. Anyway, I don't have one of those because I don't want anything around my neck. Neil Maggs Is there a lot of ribbon opening of places with the scissors and stuff like that. Kalpna Woolf 50:43 I've haven't cut one ribbon. I stood next to Darren Jones. He cut the ribbon at the… Neil Maggs The Labour MP for Bristol North. He should have stood aside for you to do it. You're a royal representative. Politicians, sharp elbow. Kalpna Woolf I don't want to cut ribbons. I want to visit people. I want to hear about people's stories. It's just what 91 Ways is actually, I'm so lucky because I've been able to do this, and then I'm also been so I've been to Square Food Foundation, and, we're going to Youth Moves. A lot of stuff. But I will tell you that what I'm doing is it gives you an opportunity, and to use a platform for change. So it's our 10th anniversary. We will be doing cooking, equipping young people across the city, teaching them to cook… Neil Maggs So you're able to combine your 91 Ways stuff? Kalpna Woolf That's really important to me. I think it's promoting what we do. And I we're working with loads of organizations around the city. We'll do cooking, we're teaching young people, help them to connect, and we'll bring… Neil Maggs Which is really important at the moment with, you know, some of the, you know, unfortunate situations that have been happening around knife crime in Bristol, to feel that you're bringing together different postcodes, different communities of young people is important, paramount. At the moment, I would say. Kalpna Woolf We cook with people who live across different postcodes. And you know, because once you made that connection, you put a human face to people. You know, that makes things quite different. Neil Maggs And also, you've got an award ceremony. It's quite a well known I've been to a couple of times in the past. The High Sheriff awards is quite a prestigious thing for youth organizations and young people in the city, isn't it? What we'll do is we'll fix it up, we'll edit this bit out the programme, and you can nominate me. I was wondering if you could, you get to nominate your successor at High Sheriff. I was wondering whether you I could put my name maybe in the hat… Kalpna Woolf Oh do you want to wear? You have to wear those tights and britches! Neil Maggs No, it's okay. So, so the awards thing that that is a that there's lots of press coverage around that, that's a big thing that you would, you decide where the awards go. Is that right? Kalpna Woolf I don't really, I'm not sure. I don't know what I think we give for awards wherever, like community organizations. I'm having a 10th Anniversary celebration, and I want to talk and a an event which brings people together, and we'll talk about food poverty and so on. Neil Maggs Maybe they haven't told you about that, or they disbanded it, I don't know. Kalpna Woolf There are other things, but I have a lot of awards that I'd love to hand out to people. Do you know what they're for? Because I did think, Oh, what is it? But actually, I run a charity, and I know what it's like. You spend all your life sort of walking down the street people running in the opposite direction, in case you can ask them something, you know, and you're working all the time to make it work. It's so hard when somebody comes along and says, You're doing a great job. It's so nice because they they've been kind enough to invite me to their community centre or tell me what they do. And I say, Well, this is great. I love it, you know, I love it so. And sometimes I can help connect them to people who could help a bit more anything. I can do anything. And let me one last thing. The reason I keep talking about Bristol and what we do, not just what I do, but what the city does, is that, actually, I really, really believe Bristol can be a model, a template for every other city. So if we can make really, absolutely believe it, 100%. I know that we have got… everywhere I've been, we have fantastic people. Why don't we just, you know, elevate and say, Look, Listen, guys, everywhere in the world, this is how a city lives well together. This is how a city looks after each other. This is how a city does well together. Neil Maggs That is a great way to end this interview. I think I could come back in with a witty comment, but I would feel that that would be unsuited exactly a lovely soliloquy at the end. No, yeah, let's end on a positive note. I think the world at the moment can be a little bit of a scary place. Can there's lots of stuff going on. So to actually have a positive conversation around something that brings people together in the various ways that you're doing is, you know, and I think, I think food, yeah… Kalpna Woolf I think you're onto something. Don't forget about our book, because our book, Eat, Share, Love, Neil Maggs I can't forget about your book. You've got two books, though, haven't you? Kalpna Woolf Well, Each Share Love is a handbook for how Bristol can say, look at our lovely city. So it is a stories of our communities through their foods. You can get it from Waterstones, or you can get it from our website. Neil Maggs You've got another one as well, called spice diet. Spice up, slim down. Yeah, yeah, that's a special one. Okay, that each share love book just out of interest. Why did you not ask me to write, to contribute to the foreword? I know about that book because I did see you at an event when you were handing out signed copies. Anybody out there that is interested. The other thing is in maybe you, in your capacity as a High Sheriff, to come and visit them at a youth organization. I'd love that, and they'll see you turning up in a hat. Thank you ever so much Kalpna, I've been watching she's getting you on for this show for ages, and it's taken quite a while. For whatever reason, more me being slack. I just want to say thank you for your honesty, sharing your own personal experiences, all the great work you're doing at the moment. And I'm sure our paths will cross sometime soon. Kalpna Woolf Let's eat together! Neil Maggs Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, yeah, as long as you can pay for it, that's ideal for me. Brilliant. Take care. Many thanks to Kalpna Woolf for joining us on this episode of Bristol Unpacked. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and join the Cable at the Bristol Cable.org, forward slash join I've been Neil Maggs. And big thanks to our production team at the Cable, and a big thanks to you for listening.