Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and this is this Podcast will Kill You.

Welcome to another episode of the tp w k Y book Club series, where I interview authors of popular science and medicine books about their latest exciting work.

This season, we've gotten to showcase some fascinating books and topics, and we still have more to come over the next months.

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Contrary to popular belief, failure is an option.

In fact, sometimes it's an unavoidable outcome, especially when it comes to science and medicine.

Your results don't support your initial hypothesis.

Your experiment goes horribly awry, the new treatment you were testing didn't lead to any improvement.

The inevitability of failure doesn't take the sting away or make your ego any less bruised.

We view these failures as setbacks keeping science from moving forward.

In reality, failure is a fundamental part of progress.

When we reflect on the history of science and medicine, we tend to highlight the triumphs, the breakthroughs, the inventions that cured diseases and saved lives.

We spend a whole lot less time on the ideas or gadgets that didn't quite work out, But those stumbles are just as important to the advancement of science and medicine than the celebrated success stories, and it's about time we acknowledged what they've helped us to achieve, which is not only knowledge like how to not do something, but also that failure is okay.

In this week's episode, we are thrilled to be joined by medical historian and award winning author doctor Lindsay Fitzharris and caricaturist and cartoonist Adrian Teal to discuss their latest book, dead Ends, Flukes, flops and Failures that sparked medical marvels.

Dead Ends is this power couple's second book geared to younger audiences middle school age, but honestly, I think that all ages would love it, and in it they showcase some of the shocking, strange, and often humorous ways that medicine didn't quite get it right the first or second or third time, stories featuring observations of guillotine heads, terrifying saws to speed up amputations, fad diets, and cow milk transfusions are accompanied by delightful and vivid illustrations of the physicians involved in these outlandish experiments.

Blending dark humor with fascinating factoids.

Fitz Harris and Teel take readers on a frolicking journey that spans the centuries of medical mishaps.

But underneath the rivening stories and grotesque illustrations is a powerful lesson Failure is an essential part of science.

It's easy to get frustrated when science doesn't have all the answers.

Some of the way.

Science is taught as a set of facts, as a forward march of progress, we don't realize how much we're still figuring things out, and that the knowledge that we have today will at some point in the future be replaced.

Dead Ends reminds readers that it's okay to fail.

Erin and I have been dying to have Lindsay Fitzharris on this podcast for the longest time.

Her other books, The Butchering Art and The Facemaker, geared to adult audiences, are some of our all time faves, and so Erin will actually be joining me for this episode, and I am so thrilled to share this with you all.

So, with only the slightest bit more ado in the form of an ad break, let's get right to the interview.

Lindsey and Adrian, Welcome to the show.

This has been such a long time coming.

We are thrilled to have you here.

We are so excited as well, and to share some gory stories of medical history with you guys.

Yeah, we're thrilled.

I am a huge fan girl.

My one of my professors gave us all of the students in my med school class the Butchering Art like before we graduated as a gift, and that was my introduction, and I've just been obsessed ever since.

So I am really fangirling right now.

You know it it was at your first introduction to medical history as a subject.

I think so honestly.

I mean we had been already been doing the podcast, so like I knew, you know, from Aaron, I had learned a lot of things, but yeah, we don't learn medical history in med school, and so it was like, and I think that's why he gifted it to everyone, because he found it also to be like so important and like such a huge part of what we never actually learn.

And I just was amazed.

It's interesting because in the UK, where I went, despite this Chicago accent, I've lived here for twenty three years.

In Britain, though, they do teach medical history to medical students in the first year, which I think is great because I think it's really important that doctors be able to contextualize where they've come from where they're going.

And I always tell audiences when I talk about the Butchering Art, which is about Joseph Lister and germ theory, what we know today isn't going to be what we know tomorrow, and we have to keep an open mind.

And that's very much what dead Ends this children's book is about as well.

I loved so much all of the stories of dead Ends, but I also loved the message, and so I'm very curious how you got the initial spark of the idea for this book and then how that evolved eventually into the ultimate message that this book tells.

Yeah, well, I'm going to pull out see now, people who follow me and have followed my brand for a long time, they're so sick of this story.

But I'm going to do it anyway.

I know bockwork saw so I had.

I used to have a YouTube series called under the knife, and the way into the stories was through objects, and so the first one we ever did was on the clockwork saw when we created a replica of it, and it was one of my favorite weird objects for medical history because it was a massive failure and it was invented by this guy named W.

HB.

Winchester in the nineteenth century at a time when speed was really important, and so the idea behind it, you always call it the pizza wheel.

The pizza pizza, that's right.

Yeah, So it's circular.

For people who are just listening, it's a circular saw, and in the middle there would have been a crank and you would crank it, you would release it and it would continuously spin.

And so he thought this was great.

He takes it into the operating theater and it ends up it's way too unwieldy and he ends up taking off his assistants finger.

So this is a bit of a disaster, and in fact, it was so bad that it never made it out of prototype phase.

And so there's only one in distance, which is at the Hunterian Museum in London.

We've recreated it here and I just I've always loved failure as a concept, and I think it's something that we don't talk about enough in science and medicine, right, you know.

And we saw we were talking earlier with a journalist about the COVID pandemic and how people were really uncomfortable with the advice changing.

But to me that was a comfort.

That meant that our doctors are learning more about this virus and that they're changing their advice.

And that's exactly what you want to see with the scientific process.

So yeah, and that's part of the scientific method, is that you change your theories and you change your approach your practices as more information comes in.

That's how you want the world to be, you know.

Yeah, And so this book, as much as anything else, it is about that kind of the evolution of the scientific method and how, you know, the things you could get away with two three hundred years ago as a scientist or a doctor, you certainly aren't going to be getting away with today because things, you know, evolve and change, and that's how it should be.

Yeah, And it's not just okay to fail, it's to fail, especially in medicine and science.

And we're hoping that that will resonate with kids, you know, everybody in the age of social media is obsessed with perfection, you know, presenting a perfect version of ourselves, a perfect version of our own histories.

And you know, if you think you've made a mistake, look at you know, some of these geniuses from the past, a lot of them have wrapped up some pretty big mistakes.

So somebody like Thomas Edison, who's by no means perfect, but he did say, you know, I haven't failed, I've just found ten thousand ways that don't work.

You know.

Yeah, it's part of the process of getting to where you need to be, rather than to be ashamed of that.

So we always loved failure.

But also Adrian who's my husband, he has a very particular set of skills as a characterist.

I have a very particular set of skills, and we were like, how can we combine this into something that could be useful to people?

Because we really.

That's how the first book that played was born really was yeah, because we just wanted to work together on something.

And Linda's great with the history and she's great with getting the stories you know structured.

Oh what I do is because I'm a manchild, I can make it then friendly kids, so I can then look at it, and because Lindsay will be writing something so I don't know how to make this, you know, readable, I said, well, don't worry about that.

Just write it like you'd write it for an adult, and then we can work that out later on.

You know.

Yeah, unsurprisingly, it was very difficult to take these complex concepts and then whittle it down and so that that was a real challenge.

But you brought the humor and the great illustrations and you know, helps them dig up a lot of these stories.

We'll let you get a word in a minute.

But what I was going to say, I think we're going to say, was is that with a kid's book, you've only got twenty twenty five thousand words to play with.

So you'd think, oh, that's easy, you know, it's not a very long book, but actually that means you have to choose every word really carefully, and so if you're trying to explain complicated scientific processes, that can be quite tricky.

So you're trying to walk a fine line, aren't you really?

Yeah?

Definitely, I love though that you guys not only managed to squeeze so much information in but also like use words like butthole, multiple times, but that was too.

Out well the editor.

The editor was quite keen on the idea of taking that out, and I said, no, there's a poetry to the word butthole that you just can.

It really is absolutely absolutely.

Also, I have to add that I dedicated, we dediticated, caated this book to our mentors, and mine is doctor Margaret Pelling, who's a very serious historian at Oxford who is my supervisor.

And I don't know yet how she's going to view this, but you know, she was like, oh, it's great to see medical history being brought to younger and younger people.

Over here in Britain, we have something called Horrible Histories, which was huge in your generation growing up, and so we kind of hope that that's that's filling a slot over in the US with with this kind of books.

So yeah, let's take a quick break and when we get back, there's still so much to discuss.

Welcome back everyone.

We've been chatting with doctor Lindsey Fitzs and Adrian Teal about their book dead Ends, Flukes, Flops and Failures that sparked Medical Marvels.

Let's get back into things.

In addition to the story that you had already mentioned about that, you know, first failure of a saw.

There are so many other incredible stories jam packed in this book.

Another favorite, which I think is also in The Butchering Art, is Listed's three hundred percent case fatality surgery.

It's one of my favorites.

It's so good.

I mean, it's so depressing, but so good.

So I'm wondering, like where exactly.

Obviously you are a medical historian, but like, where do you come across these stories?

Do you have just like a running list that you're like, how many can we jam pack in here?

Or how do you keep track of them?

All?

Yeah?

I mean they're everywhere in medical history, I have to say.

And again, you know, I mean even when I was writing The Facemaker, which is about Harold Gillies who was rebuilding soldiers spaces in the First World War, I think I said something like, you know, failure was his constant companion and again really important for Gillies and what he was able to achieve.

And some of the stories we tell in this book are dark, and you know, I feel that we should acknowledge the failures of the past and acknowledge the harm that was also done because to hide it feels conspiratorial, and we are living in an age where there is a decline in science literacy.

There's a decline in literacy period across the board, and so I think it's important to tell the whole picture.

But the balances making sure that we're always you know, cheering on science and medicine, because what we've been able to accomplish over these centuries is incredible.

You know, Adrian and I recently both went through cancer.

I went through breast cancer and he went through prostate cancer, and we caught ours very early.

I always say we're living examples of why early diagnoses is life saving.

And when people get diagnosed that I know, I always say today is the best day to be diagnosed with cancer, and tomorrow is going to be even better because the advances we are making are tremendous.

You know, my mother had a double mastec to me in twenty twelve, and between that and twenty twenty two when I was diagnosed, even in that short span, the differences in our treatment were palpable.

So medical history is littered with failure, and there is a comical value.

You know, Robert Liston, he's six', two he's this really tall.

Guy he's known as the fastest knife in The West.

End he can hold you down with his left arm and take off your leg in thirty, seconds which is exactly what you would want in a pre anesthetic.

Era but he does have these sort of comical.

FAILURES i, mean i'll say comical to us, today, yeah.

Because we all, know you, know comedy equals tragedy plus.

Time, yeah, right you can look at it with some, distance maybe not so.

Comical you, know the assistant whose finger was accidentally cut off and he dies of, infection and the patient dies of, infection and then there's a spectator who he slashes the coat and he dies of.

Fright and it's jokingly referred to as the only operation with the three hundred percent mortality.

Rate and it is kind of.

Funny but you, know when you look at somebody Like liston who had these very dramatic, failures IF i was transported to a pre anesthetic, ERA i would still Want Robert liston to do the amputation because he still was the best of the.

Best AND i also remind people that as sort of funny as these stories, are because they're so removed from us, today it would have been really frustrating as a doctor to go into that operating theater and to keep losing patient after.

Patient you are in the business of saving lives and you cannot figure out what is killing your.

Patients and Until Joseph lister comes along with germ, theory it was really, DEMORALIZING i can.

Imagine so you, know there's always that element, too you, know imagine being a doctor at this, time and WHEN i talked to plastic surgeons About Harold, gillies you, KNOW i can tell that they're looking at the photos and, thinking, HMMM i would have done that.

Differently and THEN i, say, well let me point out what you couldn't have.

Done over one hundred years.

Ago there was no, antibiotics there was no you, know, YadA, YadA, YadA and so it's it's important to remember always that the people were talking about were really trying to, help but they did sometimes inadvertently cause.

Harm and that's another point we make is, that you, know even when we're talking about remedies that just seemed completely insane to us now that were happening two three hundred years, ago they were doing the best they could with the science they had available at the, time right And that's all you can ask of the people that are trying to help, you isn't.

It?

REALLY i always ask people what do you think you know in a hundred, Years and for, ME i always think it's going to be.

CHEMOTHERAPY i think we're going to find better things to replace.

It chemotherapy is very harsh on the, patient as we, know so eventually we might find something that can replace.

It right, now it's it's the most, effective you, know thing we have in our arsenal against many.

Cancers but it's one of those Treatments i'd love to see replaced in the future with something just as, effective if not more.

Effective right it'll be featured in the city equal to Dead.

Ends but from, that can you believe that they did?

This they used to just inject us with all of these.

Things, YEAH i want TO i want to talk about the art and Dead ends, because like we talked, about you, know comedy equals tragedy plus, time and comedy also equals this incredible art that just is the chef's kiss perfection to all of these incredible.

Stories AND i want to know more about the process of integrating these illustrations into the, stories like what comes first how do those stories?

Change what how do you decide which snapshot to represent you, know this particular.

Story, well through most of my, career If i've been doing, illustration it's usually been illustrating somebody else's.

Work so that what we had a sort of unfair advantage here because IF i had a great idea for a, cartoon we could tweak the text to make sure that it helped the cartoon, along you, Know so that's that's all was was.

Good the other thing is THAT i think is important about this book And Plague, busters is that we're dealing with a lot of historical characters that kids are the most adults won't have heard, of so the names won't really mean anything to.

Them but if you can produce a caricature of them and give them some, personality it brings them alive in a way that you, know a photo from the nineteenth century of somebody, standing you, know sitting very stiffly in a in a posed, portrait that that won't.

Convey we Have poe right back there that we.

Did you, know he's he's a great, caricaturist and you were fascinated with faces from the very, start and he as a little.

Boy over here In, britain there was a big show Called Spitting image and they use these caricatured puppets and it was political.

Satire and your, father who was a, pharmacist didn't know what to do with, you and so he called the creators a Spitting.

Image and So adrian is a little boy maybe ten years, old would go to the workshop and he would learn how to sculpt these these puppets and so, yeah and so they brought the show back recently and you can see it now on TikTok and, YouTube and it seems like a time to bring political satire, back let's put it that.

Way and you've done eighty percent of the puppets and it's been really good.

Fun but it's always about first, impressions isn't.

It it's about, personality and it's about first, impressions and it's about making someone look more like themselves than they do.

Themselves, yeah you're not always you're not really making fun of.

That, WELL i mean there is an element of, that of course there, Is but it's also about it's about celebrating what makes that person that, person, Right, yeah and you know that's why it's great to do.

It with historical, characters because then they come.

Along he has this really great way of zoning in on the thing that makes your face.

Unique but the other thing about the inputations as, well is that sometimes it's about not doing an.

Illustration if we've written a good enough description of, something if we've painted a vivid enough word picture and it's you, know as is often the, case and is quite, gruesome you don't really need to have an illustration there to gild the, lily if you see WHAT i.

Mean, so, yeah sometimes just to leave it, alone you.

Know so you have to be, SELECTIVE i have to say to the.

Publisher you, know they get very.

Nervous adults get more.

NERVOUS i think that kids can handle a lot more gruesome stuff than they give the kids credit.

For so there's always this push and pull, about you, know how much is too much and what to put.

In and the original cover for this book we tell the story of the guillotined heads during The French revolution and the doctors who sort of hilariously tried to shout at them and see if there was any kind of level of consciousness.

Left and so your, idea tell them what the?

Cover my, original my original covers have the guillotine and then have a seven head at the bottom of the guillotine.

Cartoon the doctor with a stethoscope listening to the, head say there any signs of?

Life and they, said, OH i can't do, that it's far too.

Gruesome but now what we've, got which seems to be fine, apparently is somebody that a corpse being.

Electrocuted so it's sometimes hard to.

See, yeah line is.

Yeah, YEAH i mean even With.

Playbusters actually THE i really loved our original concept for the, cover and again they they were, like, no and it was it was basically was a plague doctor with the beaked mask and he had a crystal ball in front of him and they were floating, us and it was kind of, like what's the next big thing going to?

Be WHICH i thought was a really good nod to you, know the the there will be more.

Pandemics you.

Know my grandma would call me DURING covid and she'd, say have you ever heard of anything like?

This AND i was, like, Yes, Grandma i'm out a historian and back to the the last one, happened you, Know and so we would we would we were constantly having this.

Conversation BUT i liked, it but they, said.

Well crystal balls aren't real as.

Well they, said, yeah so we were.

Come up with.

It they, did like you had dancing plague rats in the background.

Again because dancing play rats are.

Real, yeah total makes.

Sense challenge.

The very first, CHAPTER i think the first image, is you, know a head on a spike with just blood, everywhere and we as we were reading it right before bedtime the other.

NIGHT i turned to that page and my son was, like AND i was, like is this gonna be too?

Scary and he's, like, no keep.

Going this is WHAT i was, says kids are.

Horrible but the way you, know.

YEAH i grew up on a diet Of Stephen, king, unsurprisingly SO i, was you, KNOW i was.

DEFINITELY i, think you know, again it is about kind of balancing that.

Depends it depends on it.

Does, yeah but a, good more big curiosity is a healthy thing for a.

Child and you, KNOW i CAN i can, remember you, know my my grandmother partly raised me and we would go to the cemeteries all the, time and, people a lot of people think that's very, creepy but for, me it's WHEN i first became interested in the past and the people who lived in the past and how did they live and how did they die and what was their?

Experience is SO i think cemeteries are these, wonderful love filled places because people spend money and thought and, time you, know memorializing somebody's.

Life but you, know, again it's it's what you're exposed.

TO i suppose at a younger age AND.

I grew up watching and Loving Monty python and you Know Terry gilliams animations On Monty.

Python's, yeah if you grow up, weird are you going to you, know stay, weird don't?

You?

Ye this is.

IT i was honored by my high school last, year which was fairly, hilarious and we went.

Back you had the Most american experience of your, life going back to This american high.

School AND i got up and, SAID i Guess i'm the proof that the weird kids can thrive after.

School and you, KNOW i, Mean i'm sure you guys.

Too you had, that you, know that weirdness in you and you know your.

Doctors but you do this great podcast and you have this real passion for science communication and getting those crazy stories out there and getting people passionate about you, know this world, medicine and SO i JUST i think the weird kids we do we survive and.

Thrive, YEAH i think the weird kids also we tend to find each.

Other, Yes and you guys mentioned, that especially as you were starting your first book Together plaguebusters and this, book that you mostly just like wanted an excuse to work.

Together So i'm, curious, like what is the what is it like for you guys to work?

Together surprisingly, harmonious isn't.

It?

YEAH i think.

SO i mean it's, again you have a skill set that's, different.

But it seems to kind of slot, together doesn't.

It.

Yeah he also knows that there's this PROCESS i go through where everything's.

BAD i think the book is.

Terrible it's.

Horrible we should just tell the publisher we're not going to do, it because there's no Way i'm going to put this out.

There LIKE i even with my adult, nonfiction like there's always, like.

Yeah we have a couple of weeks of.

That, yeah we pushed through that and maybe get to the other.

Side you stay calm and you're, like oh, maybe, yeah maybe we can do.

That and it's just it's you, Know I'm i'm a real, perfectionist which actually being a perfectionist is not a good thing to some, extent because you know that famous quote that art is never, completed just.

Abandoned, yeah you, know it's you have to let go at some point and put it out into the.

World and you, know when we put Out, plaguebusters it was really funny because that cover to me really signaled this was a kid's.

Book but there were people who left reviews On amazon that said this isn't up to the snuff of Fitz harris's other.

Books AND i was, like this is a kid's, well how are people?

Misunderstanding AND i.

Read it in like two hours and it was, really, yeah it's a kid's.

BOOK i don't know what else to.

Say it was really.

Funny LIKE i, said with this, ONE i think they've done a better job on The amazon page of saying this is for readers aged eight to.

Twelve but, people, yeah there was a lot of.

Harumphing you, know you can imagine the kind Of i'm sure you get, that you know online they're the humph ump horrumphers right of a certain, age and Fit's harris is writing for the TikTok.

Generation i'm, Like i'm writing for CHILDREN i don't know what else to, Say like the dancing fratch should have been the.

CLUE i don't, know.

But the well actually.

Is.

Yeah oh, yeah it's.

Frustrating yeah, yeah OH i love the well actually, yeah, WELL.

I absolutely love you, know going back a little bit to the we're all weird kids who somehow ended up making a life of being weird and really thriving in that.

LIFE i think it's so incredible when people follow their curiosity their interests and turn it into a career path where they really end up getting to create something meaningful and meaningful and true to, them like the way that both of you have.

Done AND i am wondering what advice you would give your younger selves or someone who maybe has a lot of for a particular subject but doesn't quite know what to do with.

That don't do.

It, no you, know we always joke about the struggles of being, freelancers but in a weird, way this isn't WHAT i.

Do it's WHO i.

Am and even WHEN i was an academic and doing my PhD At, oxford they couldn't really beat that creativity out of.

Me and recently they asked me to come speak At oxford AND i, thought, oh, dear you, know this is gonna be.

Interesting AND i got up AND i gave a, speech AND i started by saying that WHEN i was a little, GIRL i wrote a letter To Stephen king AND i told HIM i wanted to be a writer just like.

Him AND i turns OUT i didn't become a, novelist BUT i do go around horrifying people with medical.

History and there was a lot of nervous laughs amongst The Oxford dons and one of my very the first PROFESSOR i ever had in history of, Science Robert, fox who's just an intellectual.

Giant he was there and afterwards he came up to, me and a student came up and, said, oh you're so good at, speaking and he, said, oh, yes did you learn that At?

Oxford and Then adrian, said, NO.

I think she hearned us skills on.

YouTube and this old, PROFESSOR i, mean he was, like, you you, know don't really know what to say to, that but you, KNOW i now call myself a storyteller first and, foremost AND i am a medical.

HISTORIAN i have a PhD and all of, that but it's really the stories and connecting with audiences who have maybe never thought about medical history as a, subject never even realized it was a.

Subject and that's where my passion.

Is and you, KNOW i think when you're genuinely.

Passionate you, know we live in an age of.

Brands you, know kids are obsessed with brands and how to build their own, brand and to some, EXTENT i have built a brand as, such but it never started out that.

Way it was just a blog THAT i started Called The Surgeon's.

Apprentice it was supposed to really just be little stories that they wouldn't let me tell on academia that interested, me and also to explain to people in my life what medical historians.

Do and it turns out that a lot of people really gravitated towards that.

Blog and SO i think that my advice to anybody who's looking to do that is just always be genuinely.

Passionate if you are trying to sell something just because you have an end goal in, mind whether it's fame or a book deal or a podcast or A tv, show money or, money it's never going to.

Work and you have to be genuinely interested because audiences they can smell a.

Fraud and you, know this is why your podcast has done so.

Well you guys are genuinely passionate about this, this you, know and that's what people gravitate.

Toward and you can't teach somebody how to do.

That you just have.

To it's about being true to yourself as.

WELL i, mean how often do you hear you, know comedians or filmmakers or.

Whatever i've been going back we talking about multipith and briefly earlier, on you, know you ask any of, them they, said when we did that, show we were doing what we thought was.

Funny and all you can do is pursue that passion and hope that somebody else engages with.

It and that's really all of.

IT i, mean that's not to say that for every success, story there aren't you, know five hundred people that didn't make.

It but you have to be true to.

Yourself and As lindsay, said you know WHAT i.

Do you, Know lindsay, says it's part of who she.

Is WHAT i do is absolutely part of WHO i, am AND i can't imagine doing anything.

Else there's no.

Retiring it's not even it sounds, pretentious you, know but it's not even LIKE i have a, choice, Right it's what it's WHO i, am and it's WHAT i.

DO i, mean your your parents said that they put a pencil in your hand at the age of, two and.

It was like eighteen, months, yeah eighty.

MONTHS a light bulb went, on and SO i, think you know, again it's obviously there are real.

Considerations you do have to make, money you have to make a, living and those things have to be.

Weighed but it really for, me you, know WHEN i write my adult, NONFICTION i always, say Because i've just finished my next my third, book which is going to be called Smooth, hound which is a guy about a guy Named Joseph bell who was the Real Sherlock, holmes and it's About victorian five.

Forensicks it's great.

Fun but So i'm now naturally thinking about what's the fourth, Book and SO i often live with the ghosts for a few.

Moms there's a couple of people rattling around in my.

Head who's going to tell the most compelling?

Story and that's what it comes down, to you.

Can't you.

Know sometimes people pick book subjects because they think it will make a great, movie or they think, it's you, know going to fit into the political.

Times but if you artificially do that it's never gonna.

Work it has to.

Be even With.

Facemaker when that came, out The Ukrainian war conflict started and people were naturally asking about the return of trench, warfare and we're seeing plastic surgeons going over there and volunteering to help rebuild people's, faces much Like Harold gillies did in The First World.

War but that wasn't.

Planned and ultimately people have to make those those draw those conclusions.

Themselves, like my job is to tell really good, story and whatever you do with that story is your.

Business whether you think The facemaker is a great anti war book or what you think it's a great patriotic book that makes you proud of the people who.

Fought those are, different you, know agendas that the reader is going to bring to.

It my, JOB i, think is to just tell the most compelling STORY i.

Can let's take a quick break, here we'll be back before you know.

It welcome, back.

Everyone we're here chatting with the wonderful Doctor Lindsay fitzharris And Adrian teal about their book Dead.

Ends let's get into some more questions back to the.

Book obviously that we're here to talk about.

Today Dead ends and this kind of keeps coming.

Up it even came up in what you were just talking.

About you've we've touched a lot on this idea and this concept that the book is mainly, about which is, this you, know, failure is this.

Stop point on the way to.

Success but the other big THEME i feel like that emerges from this, book and you touched on it a little bit already, too is how the scientific process is this you, know iterative.

Process and sometimes it goes quite, fast as we saw DURING covid when things were changing so, rapidly.

But for a lot of history it went very.

Slowly and you GAVE i really loved the example Of galen that you gave in the, book who was you, know this wise figure had many failures and things that weren't, right but so many that were that he.

Was like really rarely ever.

Questioned AND i know you, mentioned you, know chemotherapy is one of the things that you hope is going to change in the.

Future but what do you, think like more, broadly learning about the history of medicine can kind of teach us about the way that we think of medicine and medical advancements.

TODAY i think that's such a great, question and you, know we actually just reread this book, yesterday which sounds, odd but you, know we're a.

Couple i'm at least one book ahead because a book takes a long time in, production and so you have to kind of remind yourself of what the book.

Was and with this book on like my other adult, books there's a lot of.

Stories it's not just one big narrative.

Story SO i had to kind of remind.

Myself but the story we were discussing between ourselves just this afternoon was the story Of Phineas, gage which a lot Of americans.

Know he was working on the railroad tamping iron and this iron rod shot through his, skull right through his, brain and he somehow, survives and his doctor starts to know changes in his.

Behavior and what's interesting is that happens in the early nineteenth, century and then in eighteen eighty four you have this guy Named Daniel ferrier who comes Across gauge's story and starts to wonder if certain parts of the brain control certain, functions and he creates these brain, maps and the brain map is used to correctly identify a brain, tumor and a patient Named henderson in eighteen eighty, Four so that's a long, burn and it really hinged On ferrier finding this kind of strange story that at the time wasn't very well known or very well.

Publicized and the only reason we really know About Phineas gauge is because Of ferrier's brain.

Maps SO i think it's important that kids, realized as you, say that the process can be very slow and not always a straight.

Line sometimes there can be all kinds of things that happen in the middle that are, wrong and then we get back on.

Track and a lot of times it also has to do with people being resistant to new ideas as, Well.

Yeah being entrenched in a position just because that's what people have always, done you.

Know, yeah, again you, know he had a terrible.

Influence he was a very clever, guy did some great stuff with you, Know cataract operations And, searchlight but he got as much wrong as he got, right and you, know his influence was to some extent quite detrimental for a lot of, centuries wasn't.

It and, actually, interestingly With galon and The Four, humors a lot of the reasons why people were Blood light in the past was because of.

This there was this idea that they were producing too much.

Blood and, this even After, harvey you, know proves the role of the heart and circulation long long after.

That there is a photo THAT i sometimes post on social media from the early twentieth century of someone being bled and what was happening was older patients just felt like that's what you went to the doctor, for and so they were still requesting, this and sometimes doctors were doing it even though they knew it wasn't.

Useful and this is WHAT i think today in the kin thing would be.

ANTIBIOTICS a lot of people go in instantly ask for.

Antibiotics that's not always, appropriate and now we're having antibiotic.

Resistance so it's not just on the medical.

Community it's also what we ourselves get used.

To In, america were used to seeing a doctor in a white.

Coat over, HERE i never see doctors in white.

Coats And i've been treated at the hospitals In london and they, say oh, no, no, no, no not the white.

Coats those, sleeves you, know that could be very.

Dirty and so there's a whole different culture and so sometimes it takes generations to change those.

Attitudes AND i always kind of revert back To lister because he was my first love in the butchering.

Art but Like, lister really the way he changes minds with germ theory is he goes to the younger generation and they become The.

Listerians they become no one as The.

Listerians they go out and they spread the gospel Of.

Lister it's very.

Showmanship there's a processional aspect to what he's doing with the carbolic acid and sanitizing the surgical, room and that's how they ultimately change people's.

Minds but it takes decades for this to.

Happen so it's really important that in the day and age where we want instant, results and also where results in the science and medical community often have to be justified by how much money it, makes we need to remember that research for the sake of research is really important and that some of the biggest discoveries we've ever made were not goal oriented in.

MIND i think another problem that doctors had in the past was you could come up with a paradigm, shift but the problem was getting the word, out wasn't.

IT i, mean right now you've got you, know journal, articals, websites social.

Media you can get the message out but in those days it was more.

DIFFICULT i Mean James lynd who came up with a cure for.

Scurvy you, know he worked out lemon.

Gee he didn't know why lemon juice, worked but he realized it did.

Work you, know that's.

Fine but he was just like a small time doctor that he wrote a book about it and a few people read.

It but that didn't mean that scurvy is automatically, cured you, know across the.

World so it takes time and hard work and dedication to to keep pummeling away at these problems and changing minds and getting the will the paradigm to actually, shift you.

Know AND i was really looking forward to you finding a way to bring scurvy into the conversation BECAUSE i know The errands love scurvy as.

Well, huge huge fans of.

Scurvy he loves, scurvy and he had convinced me to put it In playbusters BECAUSE i was, like, Scirvy, like who cares about scar fantastic, subject.

Really it really.

Is it's a really important part Of.

PLAYBUSTERS i.

Agree, Yeah well he convinced me BECAUSE i was, like oh, yeah a lot of people really did die of.

This it was such a Weird it's such a weird one, too because like your old wounds open off.

Stuff.

Yeah i've been reading about a nautical medical history for we're doing an episode on necrotizing fasci, itis and there was a really interesting, yes, right there was a really interesting book WRITTEN i think in like eighteen eight or something like, that and they talk about like one of the authors is in the discussion of these ulcers that are just like you, know spread rapidly and end up killing the.

Sailor he's, like you, know And lynn was talking about scurvy and how much of a problem he saw back in the, day And i'm amazed that he could find that many sailors with.

SCURVY i see, no like not no sailors these days with.

Scurvy And i'm just like to see that from like that, perspective like he's already looking back like two hundred years, ago and like what was the concept?

Then how did they see the pattern of you, know different transitions or these paradigm.

Shifts AND i feel like, SCURVY i, mean, YEAH.

I know that story BECAUSE i talk about it in The butchering art because doesn't it it the ulcerating it's it's on a guy's.

Penis IF i.

Were ever and the number of penis is falling, OFF i have read several by this, point not Like i've just stumbled upon.

THEM i have not sought them, out and yet they find.

Me Fa CAN i just say That lindsay is surprisingly.

Screaming so if you're watching a film and there's a gory, bitch, yeah For god's, sake you might about what those penis is falling.

Off.

Well it's funny because with the butchering ART i, HAD i went all over the world with, it AND i had three or four men.

Faint it was always, men by the, way who fainted WHILE i gave that, Talk AND i think it was it.

Wasn't it was the.

Suggestion you.

KNOW i think when people put themselves on the, table or they put themselves in that, position it can get a little bit.

Dicey it's.

Not it's ALSO i think if you describe, IT i think the movie that you have going on in your head is worse than anything you can actually see In forens Of.

Me, right it's Like jaw with the.

Shop.

Right he couldn't show the, shop, yeah but he made the shop more scary by not showing the.

Shop, yeah so with movies, today, yeah it's always a little.

Bit you, know there's there's talk about Adapting Face, maker and you, KNOW i, said, well here the.

Challenges you have to show the, faces you have to show the disfigured soldiers because we have to look at, that and you, know but it's it's, hard AND i think when you're empathetic, too it can be when you see it on, film it can be very difficult to sort of, watch but writing it doesn't.

Feel quite it's.

Bad BUT i do remember the penis falling, off AND i REMEMBER i remember it BECAUSE i remember the surgeon then saying like it was a big, description and then it said he, died like at the, end like a.

Corse he, died he, Died and then like the next line is this is not an uncommon, story And i'm, like.

What.

It's a horrible, horrible like, horrible you, know you imagine then in these nineteenth century operating, theaters it was just.

Horrific i'm Also i'm very curious about the period of time that you are most interested.

In you, know we talked about science being, stubborn and part of that is by, design of, course, like we, can't you, know completely change the field or rewrite the textbook based on one.

Paper we have to build the body of evidence for.

That BUT i feel like the nineteenth century is just ripe with these transformative moments where we have germ, theory we have sort of vaccines are starting to take, off we're finally having an UNDERSTAND i mean.

Evolution all of these things are mixing together at, once and we might be a little bit too close to the twentieth century to really see the same.

Patterns i'm not sure about, that But i'm wondering what you love about the nineteenth century.

MEDICINE i so this is funny because With, facemaker it was a twentieth century, story AND i vowed to never return to the twentieth century after writing it because there were THINGS i hadn't, anticipated Which i'm kind of embarrassed to say this as a, history BUT i just never ventured that close to modern.

Times one of the problems was patient.

CONFIDENTIALITY i had to prove that these men were, dead and in cases where their stories had been told by gillies in relation to their, names that was, fine it was part of the public.

Record but IF i went into their patient records and found something That gillies hadn't.

PUBLICIZED i couldn't put that to the patient's name and the.

Stories so there were a lot of challenges to.

That and, also as you, say you know we are very close to.

IT i will meet people, who'se you, know grandfather or great grandfather was treated By, gillies which is incredible to.

Think, actually doctors are fascinating, too because medical history sort of a.

Genealogy And i'll meet plastic surgeons who, SAY i was trained by somebody who was trained By Harold, gillies and you, think, oh that can't be, possible but, actually you, know.

Well it's funny to say it because my, Mentor Roger, law who Created Spitting, image he was taught by people who were taught By Henry.

Tonks, yeah it was the.

Artist he was the artist who did the sketches of the soldiers with the injured, faces you, know the medical for medical.

Purposes you, know it wasn't just an artistic.

Exercise it was actually FOR ta, help how we'll get his reconstruct.

Faces so it wasn't that long me a couple of degrees of, Separation, yeah.

It wasn't it wasn't that long, Ago and SO i always go back sort of the you, Know i'm back into the nineteenth century With Sleuth.

Hound it feels like a warm.

Bath it's a, WORLD i, know and as you, say there's a lot of amazing things that are.

Happening, also you don't have you, know some of the things aren't in.

Copyright you, know you could go into the patient records without any problems if you go back.

Further the challenges THAT i find are that BECAUSE i like to write narrative nonfiction for, adults that means it sort of reads like a, novel like in the in the style Of Eric, LARSEN i don't have enough records necessarily to move some of those earlier figures around in a way that feels, novelistic whereas With, LISTER i have his diaries and letters and things like, that and so it's much.

Easier but you, know with the children's, book we do deal a lot with the nineteenth century because there are just you, know it's with.

Anesthesia it's day starts experimenting with nitrous oxide and laughing gas in this sort of early nineteenth, century and he does say something he wonders if this could be useful in.

Surgery but it's not until eighteen forty four until a dentist In america picks this up morton and tries to use it to extract the tooth that they, think, oh maybe this could be.

Useful and then you get into ether being, discovered and the guy who uses ether In america tries to patent it because that's The american, way and it sort of backfires on.

Him and so there's all these like weird little failures in the story of.

Anesthesia but the biggest thing that comes out of, anesthesia which we talk about in Dead, ends is actually there's this amazing, triumph but surgery becomes much more dangerous immediately after this moment because doctors are more willing to pick up the knife and to go deeper into the, body but they still don't understand germ.

Theories so as a, result postoperative infection.

Rises so again you have this this this idea of, success but also can cause other.

Problems it's kind of two steps, forward one, back isn't it?

Often?

Yeah AND i think that's even.

Today i'm sure you.

Know here's another THING i just want to make clear is that you, know we're very pro, science pro.

Medicine and one of the challenges with telling the story was to make sure we weren't scaring kids away from medicine and.

Science and you, know one of the things we tried to do in the book was to remind them that we do now have.

Regulations we have THE, fda we have you, know institutes that regulate the.

Stuff so it's a lot.

Safer you don't have at regender coming at you with the, smallpox you, know and hoping that this is going to.

Work so it's it's different in that, sense and we should celebrate those institutes that keep us safe and hopefully we'll continue to do, that and that's a big part of the.

Story so it's again it's about not hiding our history and acknowledging the harm that was, done BECAUSE i think also if we don't do, that it's not right to the people who were harmed by some of these.

Experiments but, equally you, know celebrating the triumphs and then seeing how we become better at what we do and safer at what we, do and how this is this is is a better world because of what has.

Happened, yeah, YEAH.

I feel like you highlight in the book to a lot of how there has always been this misinformation and everything that is kind of everywhere as it is, today and so much of what drives misinformation and the spread of misinformation today is just this lack of a fundamental understanding and how science is actually.

Done AND i feel like one of the things that's so great about the book is how you highlight that this is normal for things to, change how science is this work in.

Process we have to change our minds when we have conflicting.

Evidence what are some of the ways that you think today that for, ourselves our, kids our, families our, Friends how can we like inoculate ourselves against this rise of medical?

Misinformation that's such a great.

Question and ALSO i just want to say that we don't just have medical.

Misinformation we now also have medical disinformation which is different and purposely spread to misinform the.

Public and so it's a very scary.

Thing having gone through breast cancer, recently there are you, know some high profile people who are just plainly saying things that are just not true about how you should be treating your breast.

Cancer and it can be very dangerous because people read this, stuff they're influenced by.

It we live in the age of TikTok and, influencers and it can be very dangerous.

Misinformation you, know this this is the issue is to go back to THE covid, pandemic was that it wasn't misinformation all the time when if we revised the, advice and SO i think that's the problem is that people will sometimes look at it and think that well they were.

Wrong well they were, Wrong but, again this is about the process of learning about the virus when the virus is brand.

New you, know there was different advice to two years.

Later AND i think it is sort of a disconnect with the scientific, process the decline of science literacy again that we're seeing across the.

WORLD i don't know what the anecdote is, though because it's scary the way we consume.

Information one of the things we were talking about in a previous interview was that we did an event With pladebusters and all the kids were sitting there reading and they didn't care what we had to, say which was great to.

See AND i think the thing to take away was that kids actually are hungry for that kind of thoughtful.

Content they don't need to just be fed this through thirty second clips online and in adults, too they want the deep.

Dives you, Know i'm still one of the dinosaurs On.

Instagram we're doing you, know big Level instagram posts and people come to it and they want to read it and they want to understand.

More and SO i think that there's a value in.

Books there's a value in deep, dives and we need to keep pushing, that you, know because that's the only way we're going to get over this sort of age of misinformation and.

Disinformation we have to be more literate and scientifically, literate.

Certainly, Yeah and you, know books great because it gives you the space to do, that to make an.

Argument really, YEAH i suppose what we're trying to do is.

And make it fun for the.

Kids you, know you got the butthole and there you, got you, got you got the buttle, that you got the fun, illustrations and it's just it's been a joy to see kids pick this book up To AND i just hope that we can find ways to make science and medicine really fun for kids and uh and and find new ways to engage with them on on these really interesting.

TOPICS i think that Dead ends is it's such an incredible.

Book it's it is something that as a, KID.

I would have.

Loved AND i know that there are.

Tons of nerdy kids out there and non nerdy kids who are just of this.

Book AND i just you, Know lindsay And, adrian it has been such a joy to chat with.

You it's been a long time.

COMING i feel like there's like a parasocial relationship thing going on Where i'm, LIKE i know, you this is.

Amazing we're, like we're friends.

Already SO i was just so happy that we could finally connect up and chat about.

This AND i know that we'll be talking about Sleuth hound And facemaker and whatever else you guys want to talk, about.

Because all the things, yeahs yeah.

Fun so thank you for amplifying our book in this extraordinary way as.

Well thank you.

A big thank you again To lindsay And adrian for taking the time to chat with.

US i am it's so glad that we finally got to have you all on the.

Pod what a.

Delight if you enjoyed today's episode and would like to learn, more check out our website this podcast will Kill you dot.

Com We're i'll post a link to where you can find Dead ends, flukes flops and failures that sparked medical, marvels as well as links To lindsay's website And adrian's website where you can find their other incredible.

Work and don't forget you can check out our website for all sorts of other cool, things including but not limited, to Transcripts quarantini And, placybrita, recipes show notes and references for all of our, episodes links to merch our bookshop Dot org affiliate, page Our goodreads, list a first hand account, form and music By.

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Much, well until next, time keep washing those hands