So I think this is a pattern that parents fall into.

They're constantly closing loops for their kids.

Like I said, they are the ones that are putting the dirty clothes off the floor into the hamper.

They're the ones that are taking the dishes from the table to the sink.

And so the more we're just accommodating our kids in that way and closing all the loops for them, we're not giving them the opportunity to practice closing that loop.

Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity.

I'm Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey can be.

Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together.

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Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, every one.

I'm really excited today to have part of the Childhood Collective with me Katie Severson and Malory Yee, and we're going to talk about executive function and how to really weave in some strategies into day to day life.

Because I think that's where we really see problems, right, That's where kids with ADHD, kids with autism, if they have also executive function challenges, this is where they get tripped up, is the little things that we're asking them to do day to day.

And I've had so many parents say, well, my kids eight, they ought to be able to get dressed by themselves.

My kids tend they should be able to get through the morning without me hovering, right, But as the three of us know, that's not always the case.

And so I'm glad we're going to jump in and offer some insights and some strategies.

Will you all start by introducing yourselves so let everybody know who you are and what you do.

Sure, so, thank you so so much for having us on Penny.

My name is Mallory Ye.

I'm one third of the Childhood Collective.

I'm a licensed child psychologist.

I have training in school psychology.

I've done work in the schools, I've done work in pediatricians' offices.

I've done work in private practice doing therapy but also evaluations for children with ADHD, autism and other common developmental concerns.

But now doing the Childhood Collective along with Katie and Laurie.

Yeah, and I'm Katie Severson.

I'm a speech language pathologist and similar to mal I, had worked in private practice.

We all kind of overlapped at one point in private practice doing assessment.

And the other third of the Childhood Collective is doctor Lori Long, another child psychologist, and she actually had the idea to come together and create resources for families who are getting that new ADHD diagnosis because as you might know, you know, you get the diagnosis of something like autism, and there tends to be this kind of long checklist like here's all the boxes that you needed, and with ADHD, which is very impactful to families lives.

Often parents are really not given a ton of tools.

Maybe they're suggested to take medication or try that, but there's not a ton beyond that for parents.

And we definitely know the value and power of medication, but also parent behavior training and supporting families kind of from the ground up at home is a huge piece of it.

And so we started providing resources for the community about gosh five six years ago now, and it's kind of evolved into a lot of things.

You know, we have courses and a blog and podcast and all kinds of things.

But we also recently added a course to help families who are navigating ADHD at school, and that's another piece of our kind of combined expertise and just really a lot of times kids with ADHD, their main struggles aren't the academic skills as much as the executive functions at school.

So I would say, if we had one drum, it's definitely executive functioning and helping families sort of figure this out both in the home and school settings, and that's what we're most passionate about.

Yeah, And I would say another thing is we're also all living this.

Yes, we have a lot of us, you know, got our degrees before we realize we were living it over before we were parents.

So now we kind of we we try to really bring our professional expertise, but through the lens of moms who some of us have ADHD ourselves.

We all have ADHD in our homes in some way.

Most of us are raising kids with ADHD.

So we joke sometimes we laugh about the recommendations that we used to give to parents before you were parents, Like I can't I can't believe I used to tell parents to do that because I would never, and I'm definitely not doing that in my own home.

So we definitely try to bring this balance between our professional lives and then actually living it.

What's going on in our homes, what's realistic, what works, and what feels good.

Yeah.

Yeah, And it's so different to get advice from so who lives it versus somebody who just learned it right, and it makes all the difference.

And you were talking about how when kids get diagnosed with ADHD, there's very little information.

You know, my son was diagnosed with ADHD first, and it was two thousand and eight, and there literally was nothing.

There was Attitude magazine and Halliwell had Driven to Distraction book, and I think that was really it, and it's a big part of the reason why I ended up doing this work.

But we had to figure it out on our own, and nobody said, Hey, there's this thing called executive function and here's what it is, and this is how it's probably impacting all of these things that you're seeing as behavior issues, they're actually you know, underlying skilled deficits or different wiring.

So do you want to start by letting everybody know exactly what we mean when we say executive function for anybody who hasn't heard of it yet.

Absolutely, yeah, I love this question.

And you know, I think we do hear more and more about executive functions, but a lot of people, like you mentioned, don't really know exactly what that means.

And so one sort of simple analogy we like to use is that the executive functions are kind of like the GPS in our brain.

And so I'm getting in my car and I have a destination in my mind, an endpoint or a goal, and executive function helps me to set that goal.

Maybe I'm going to clean the kitchen or bake a cake.

Right, But then with the GPS in our car, it really quickly calculates the most efficient way to get there, and what are the steps, what are the roads you're going to go on, where you're going to turn, And then as you start to drive, the GPS tells you, oh, you know what, there's a roadblock up here, or there's construction.

We need to go around this.

And similarly, in our brains, the executive functions help us to figure out the fastest, most efficient way to clean the kitchen.

Oh no, that's not going to work.

The dishwasher is full, and I forgot to run it, So I need a new plan to getting these dishes clean.

And one of the pieces that we see with our kids a lot of times that is such an important executive function is that inhibition piece where you can easily become Oh, I'm cleaning the kitchen and I'm going to throw this towel in the laundry, and then I realized I didn't do the laundry, and I'm kind of on this little side quest now over here, and that happens so quickly.

And one of the ways that we can support our kids is building up those executive functioning skills to make a plan and figure out how to implement it and how to kind of stop themselves from side quests.

Well, you love side quests, but it really can rob you of your time and not allow you to get to your goal.

And so that's what we're thinking about when we talk about the executive functions.

And I think it's really important for parents to understand that all kids are developing their executive functions up through the mid twenties.

So if your child is struggling in this area, they're not alone in that.

But we do know that kids with ADHD are often delayed about thirty percent in their executive functions compared to their peers.

So you have, you know, a nine year old, they might have executive functioning skills that are more consistent with a six year old.

And we love that reframe for parents because to your example about getting dressed, it's not that your child is so naughty and doesn't care and doesn't love you and you're a terrible parent, right, And we can go down these kind of rabbit holes, but really when we reframe it and we say, well, yeah, he knows how to put his shoes on, he knows how to put his pants on and button his zipper, you know, zip his zipper, button his buttons.

But what's really happening often below the surface is an issue with the executive functioning getting started, staying on task, not losing focus.

And again, when we reframe it, we can say, oh, okay, so it actually has to do with how his brain is developing, and it really helps us that in and of itself doesn't actually change the challenge, but it really changes how we view it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love the term side quest.

I had many this morning.

Yes I don't have ADHD, but I like all the things that to be done.

Like I think anybody can relate to having a lot on your plate and getting distracted trying to manage multiple things at one time, and you end up somewhere else entirely.

And I think that's kind of a regular experience for a lot of our kids with ADHD.

How do we then help them, How do we help them to build the skills to navigate, because they do want to do it, as you were just saying, Katie, they do want to please us, They want to participate like any other kid would write like.

They see the difference, and they would like to be successful.

So how do we bridge that gap.

I think one of the biggest things to keep in mind is what we talk about as making the invisible visible.

So these executive function strategies are kind of nebulous and hard to define, and a lot of times we're talking about things that are not concrete, and kids with ADHD, especially live in the here and now, and if it's not like right in front of me, it doesn't exist.

These things that are a little bit more abstract, more invisible, they have a hard time acting on it when it's there in the moment.

But I think this is a huge challenge for parents at home.

I'm thinking specifically of one specific example, So, how do we support kids at home with executive function?

Right, if you're parenting a child with ADHD, this may sound familiar.

Loops are constantly being left unclosed at home.

There's stuff everywhere.

There's you know, they get home from school, they pull off all their clothes and it's littering the ground.

They unpack their backpack and everything's on the counter.

There's stuff everywhere.

They're not closing loops, they're not finishing the task, they're starting tasks, leaving things unfinished, and parents get in a position of being really frustrated because they're like, I'm constantly closing your loop.

I'm the one that's picking up your laundry and putting it in the hamper.

I'm the one that's putting your folder in your lunch box back in your backpack and hanging the backpack up where it belongs.

So I think this is twofold here.

One we need to give everything a home.

So this is something that we can do as parents, is set up the environment for our kids where everything has a place, because if it doesn't have a home, if it doesn't have a place, well it's going to be anywhere but where it's supposed to be right.

So one way that we can help our child with this executive function at home of like being more organized, is making sure everything has a home and your child knows where that home is.

You might even label it again, making that invisible a little bit more visible for them, or maybe even take a picture of what it looks like when that thing is in its home.

So it takes this invisible, nebulous concept and makes it very concrete for your child.

And again, we're meeting them where they're at.

We're meeting them where their skill level is with this at the moment.

So one piece is making sure that everything has a home, and the other piece is making sure that you're helping your child close their loops and you're not closing all of the loops for them.

So I think this is a pattern that parents fall into.

They're constantly closing loops for their kids.

Like I said, they're the ones that are putting the dirty clothes off the floor into the hamper.

They're the ones that are taking the dishes from the table to the sink.

And so the more we're just accommodating our kids in that way and closing all the loops for them, we're not giving them the opportunity to practice closing that loop.

So I think that's one more way that we can kind of grow that executive function support at home for our kids, kind of meet them where they are, making sure we're not doing all of this for them.

It's a beautiful balance.

We've got to meet kids where they are, but we also have to have expectations for them and we have to be building these skills at the same time.

And I think on that same note, when you're thinking about this, like if you're trying to apply this to your own life and you're like, Okay, the main issue I'll speak to my own house is we recently moved and we have kind of this mudroom area, but there's not really like a clear system for the mudroom yet.

So everything when the kids walk in through the garage door gets dropped on the ground and we're talking like backpacks, water bottles, lunchboxes, soccer cleats, just whatever it is.

And then the next person to come through gets really irritated.

It's me.

I'm the person that comes through, like what am I supposed to do with all this stuff here?

And I start moving it and you know, putting it away.

And so this is a real life working example for me where I'm talking with my kids and we're saying, Okay, what do we need to do to make this mudroom work for us?

And literally bringing our kids along on that journey.

That's such a huge piece of executive functioning is that for parents?

And you mentioned this two penny, Like, we have so much on our plates, right, if it's back to school season, we have so many things to keep track of, it's if it's the holiday season, we're all like running around like little elves.

There's so much that we're in charge of, and we do it in our minds and it really is quote invisible to our kids, right, they don't see it, and so same with us.

That I might design that's so cute, and I found it on Pinterest and it looked really good, and I went to the store and I got the hooks.

But now my kids are not invested in that.

They don't have buy in, They don't really understand that system.

And maybe even in my excitement to imitate Pinterest, I stuck the hooks, you know, four and a half feet off the ground, and my kids can't even reach that high.

So it's taking the time and really being cognizant.

And I think, again, we just live in a world where we have so much that we need to get done in a day.

It's almost impossible, truly, But slowing down and saying, okay, what is the problem, Like why is it such a hard thing for you to get your socks?

You know, your shoes are over here on this little shelf, but we can't get socks.

And they'll say, you know, okay, it's because my shoes or my socks are over in my dresser in my bedroom.

So then we can problem solve that and be like, okay, what do we need to do.

Let's get a basket.

Maybe it's not a cute basket.

Let's just grab a basket, put all the socks right next to the shoes.

Or we have backpacks.

How many bags do we need to hang up?

You know we have soccer and the and two backpacks.

Okay, so five hooks, six hooks?

Where should we put them?

Here?

You show me how high up you want your hook to be.

And again, we're bringing our kids along in this process, and parents don't realize it because it's just it's something that we automatically do, and we automatically problem solve.

We circumvent problems all day long.

We're like professional fixers.

Okay, But when we can bring our kids into it, it's one teaching them how to do it for themselves, which is the ultimate goal, and it's also helping a lot with that buy in piece because they feel like they got a special job in that.

And I will say one encouraging thing if you're listening and you're like, yeah, I just do not think that we can have homes for everything, and I want to encourage you that in my family everyone has ADHD and it really does help us over time.

Like it is work.

It took me a very long time to teach my kids.

Okay, The iPads and the chargers always go in this spot and it's constant repetition.

This is where we really get into teaching our kids and rewarding them when they're doing a great job and praising them.

But it is a very slow, uphill project.

And at the same time, you're investing time somewhere.

You're either investing time in teaching them where to put it and helping them learn, or you're investing time in searching for it.

Or buying a new one because you couldn't find it.

So what I've found in my own family, and I say this as a person who really struggles with a lot of these things, is if we can find those places and assign them and everybody knows, and then we just practice the heck out of it, it really does save us a lot of time and kind of mental load in the long run.

So if you're listening and you're like, there's no way, just pick one thing, one or two things to start.

Maybe it's lunchboxes or keys.

Keys were always getting lost, or the remote.

The remote gets lost in our house still, but there is a spot for the remote and anyone who picks it up should know this is where it goes.

So maybe just starting small is one way to make it a little bit more manage.

Yeah, you can always bring a professional into help too, Like if you really struggle with organization yourself, you can hire someone to help you, maybe room by room, or just a few ideas at a time.

I'm definitely a loop closer.

I love this terminology.

I never thought about it that way.

And my kid is twenty three now and he still leaves all his loops open everywhere but I've learned finally to not be the loop closer anymore.

And I bring him in and I just say, take a look at the kitchen counters and see what you think you know, and really trying to put that on him to figure out.

But for years I was doing everything because it was easier and it took less time and when I didn't yet understand, And is what Katie was just describing that I can frontload some time and it's gonna save me later and it's gonna really build the skills that I want my kids to have.

If I do it for them, they're not learning anything.

Yeah, And I think the hard part about not letting our kids close their own loop is then they never get the satisfaction of finishing the task.

So then they never get that like feel good, like oh I did that, or like that looks really nice, or it feels good when I've put all my things where they belong.

They don't ever get to like access that internal reinforcement, that satisfaction from following something from start to finish.

And guess what, that makes it harder to even start things.

If you're not getting the satisfaction of finishing things, it just it spirals, and then you know, loops are constantly being left open, and I, Penny, just like you, I have to always stop myself and say, I know the easy route right now is to put the clothes in the hamper.

That's the easiest thing to do in this moment, but I know that's not going to serve my family in the long run, and so it is kind of taking the temporary discomfort with the idea that the long term payout will be there.

Yeah.

And on that same note, I think there's a ton of value in the idea of doing it together.

You know.

I think we have this idea of like either I'm going to close the loop or they're going to close the loop, and when that's not happening, it does start to build a lot of resentment and maybe even frustration some shame, like oh man, I couldn't teach my kid how to do this.

But when we do things together, that is a game changer.

So my daughter just turned eleven and she wanted to redo her room, redecorate it as all eleven year old.

She's like, I just have a new personality now that I'm eleven, and I just really need my room to reflect I'm like, okay, tell me about your personality.

I love to hear about this.

But you know, yeah, but in that case, I think about all the loops that go into a project like that.

Right, we started with going through this was the boring stuff.

She was not impressed at all by me.

But I'm saying, Okay, we need to go through your drawers.

We need to get rid of clothes that you don't wear anymore.

They're too small, too short.

Let's give them to your cousin, and let's think about and draw a plan before we just buy a bunch of furniture.

Where do you want your things?

We had a big chair in her room and there really wasn't room for that, so we had to think about that, like where's your cozy space going to be?

These kind of things.

Again, this is all building executive functioning.

But to Mallory's point, when we got done with that room, and it took us a few weekends and a lot of work, we painted.

It was an overhaul, but she felt so good and she's still it's been a couple months now and she still will say to me, I just.

Love my room.

I love it, and I've done my kids' rooms.

Right, we started with nurseries before they were even born, and there just really wasn't that sense of appreciation because it was all picked for them.

And so as our kids get older doing things together, they do pick up on what we're thinking, problems that we're solving, the way that we're thinking about it, And that's a huge piece of it is is the value of doing it together.

So I think a lot of us have in our mind this jump between either I'm going to do it or they're going to do it.

So one encouragement to you is to maybe find that middle ground of we're going to do it together and they're going to become more and more independent in this task slowly, but it does take time.

And I think that's really such a confusing thing about our culture today is that, especially on social media, everyone has a quick fix for everything, and so much of parenting, if you're really in it and you're in the trenches, it's not a quick fix.

It's an every day slow process.

You might mess up, you might apologize to your kids, you might try something one day and then be like that's didn't feel right.

We're not doing that again, And it is an ongoing process where things get refined, and then you have a second kid and they're totally different and you're like, actually, none of that'scratched at all.

So I think that's such an important thing for parents to hear and to be encouraged by, is if it feels hard, it is hard.

There isn't some script that would just teach your child executive function.

This is the day to day tasks that you're doing.

And the good news is it's the day to day tasks that you're already doing, so it can be both.

If it feels hard, it is hard.

I love that validation because we often think, well, why is it so hard for me?

It's not hard for anybody else.

We just don't see that their struggle for everyone.

One thing I was going to mention as we've been talking is that we also don't want to tell them what to do right.

So if the shoes are in the middle of the kitchen floor, we don't want to say I need you to get your shoes and go put them in the shoe cubby, right, because we want them to work that out.

So that second layer for me was always oh, I see your shoes in the floor, and then just waiting right because he can figure that out.

But I need to give him the opportunity.

The other thing was always like just narrating all of the things that, as you were saying, that we take for granted that happen inside.

Our kids can get value from that.

They can learn skills from that if we are narrating.

So if I'm just getting frustrated and then I problem solve in my head and I move on, They're not learning that.

They're not learning that someone can get frustrated.

This is how you work it out, and this is where you go from there, right, So a couple more layers on top of that can be really helpful, I've found as well.

Absolutely, I think with both of those points, you're spot on.

Just that one that you just mentioned, Yeah, I used to when I was still in private practice doing therapy.

One of the things that I would tell parents to do, which probably surprise them, was be a little more transparent with your emotions, like let kids feel alone.

And this is more broad too, but speaking just to emotions, a lot of times kids feel alone in their emotions because they don't realize that other people feel these things too.

They don't realize that other people worry.

Sometimes they don't realize that some people feel ashamed.

Sometimes they don't realize that other people feel embarrassed sometimes.

So the more that we're kind of as parents were like inside managing that and we want to put on a cool face for our for our kids, although that doesn't always happen.

Sometimes verbalizing what's going on inside is really to the benefit of our kids.

A they realize they're not alone, and B they see what we're doing to problem solve, whether it's managing big emotions or it's managing the detour on the way to school.

You say, oh, gosh, you know that light isn't working today, so we have to take a right turn today.

I guess I could take the backway to school, you'd have to come in the other door.

So, like you're verbalizing your thought process to benefit your child, they're realizing you don't just automatically have the answer all of the time, that you're kind of doing your own problem solving, and that really helps with executive function.

And to your first point, Twopenny, rather than saying like you need to put your shoes away, what you're talking about is using declarative language, and the use of declarative language is great for growing your child's executive function.

And Katie does such an eloquent job talking about declarative language.

I'll let her do that because I think this is just another key way that parents don't have to add add a ton to their plate at home, but they can be growing executive function at home.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I love talking about declarative language.

It's interesting because as a speech therapist, you know, we spend a lot of time working with kids, obviously, but this was always one of my strategies for parents, and they're like, wait, I thought it was the kid that was going to be doing the work.

But it feels weird to use declarative language.

Essentially exactly what you said, Penny, you're just speaking things out loud.

Oh, I noticed that it's really cloudy outside.

I wonder if it's going to rain.

And then you just wait a second and you let your child process that, especially if you have a child who is a slower processor.

Don't assume that they immediately listened and heard you and processed it and understood that.

That means they need a jacket or an umbrella, right, But give it a little time.

And what I love about declarative language is that you can just really layer as much as you need to.

So you might start with, oh, I noticed it's really cloudy and it looks like it might rain, and then if your child is like yup and they're heading out the door in the take, you can say, oh, I wonder what we might need if it does rain, right, And so it's easy to then build in a little bit more support and a little bit more support without jumping to hey, it's cloudy, go get your umbrella, or worst case us, just grabbing the umbrellas and throwing them in the car.

Because again, it's that thought process that we're speaking out loud, and it does feel a little bit strange to make open ended statements when nobody says anything back.

So again I always like to think for parents, like how are you actually putting this into practice?

When you try this, it's gonna feel weird because you're like, I'm speaking to an audience of no one.

But it's really valuable for our kids to be able to hear again, like you said that inner monologue or those inner thoughts, and then how are we going to problem solve that.

I think that's a really valuable, valuable skill.

It's actually in our top three things that we talk about a lot for executive function is that using that declarative language.

And it's not just a speech therapy thing.

It's something that we can all do as parents to grow our kids awareness of what's going on around them.

And wait a lot longer than is comfortable, make it weird.

This is what I learned from Seth Perler, Like you just keep waiting, keep like we talk too much as parents.

Oh yeah, it's part of that fixing and problem solving.

But if we don't give them the space to figure it out on their own, how are they ever going to learn to do that?

And it is so super valuable, Like if you wait, they will likely answer or say something at some point, but they're used to you just going on and so they don't realize yet that they're supposed to say anything.

Probably, you know.

It's like you know, once she's done talking, I know she's going to repeat herself again a little more succinctly.

That's when I'll listen.

They're learned to just kind of tune you out until you raise your voice or you sound a lot more serious.

So, yeah, you have to wait a lot longer than feels comfortable, because these kids with delayed executive function do often have slower processing speed, And again it's not them being defiant or naughty or hoping to get out of it.

They need more time to process that information and decide what to do with it.

Yeah, when my kid was little, somehow I figured out that I just needed to count to five in my head before I expected a response, because I expected a response immediately, right, that's what we normally do.

And it was a game changer.

I went from thinking he never listened, he never responds to He almost always listens and responds if I just give him enough time and I give him that quiet space of me not talking right to get there made a huge, huge difference, And I think it's a really valuable strategy for sure.

Anything else you want to add before we wrap up about executive function and living with kids and other adults who struggle with that, I love it.

I think mainly it's just the main mindset set shift that we need to meet our kids where they're at.

And a lot of times the struggles that are happening at home when we're kind of clashing with our kids, when we feel like they're not doing what we want them to do.

Again, our kids want to do well.

They don't want to be in constant struggle with you and feel like they're never meeting your expectations.

They want to meet your expectations.

We have to meet them where they're at and then slowly help them take steps forward as we grow these skills.

And I think that that mindset shift is the biggest game changer because it totally changes how you approach your kids at home.

You guys have a freebee that you're offering to everyone.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

It'll be linked up in the show notes.

Great.

Yeah.

So we have created a few different resources I think based on this talk today, the best one for us to share would be six Keys to Raising a Happy and Independent Child with ADHD.

And that's just a free guide that we created with six strategies that parents can use and things that we we felt like, if we were sitting with you in our office or at coffee as a friend, what are the things we would really want you to start with and learn about ADHD.

So that's just a great resource that you can check out and it is a guide with you know, lots of suggestions and things like that for you if you're especially if you're new to the diagnosis or you feel like maybe you've been trying some things but it's not really working.

It can be a really helpful reframe and kind of clean slate.

Awesome and tell everybody where they can find you online.

Yeah, we're most active on our Instagram at the Childhood Collective.

That's probably where we spend most of our time.

We are also, you know, on TikTok and Facebook and some of the other platforms, and then we do have a podcast, Shining with ADHD, and that is a really wonderful resource.

Sometimes it's just the three of us talking and other times we have guests like yourself, Penny, and it's been a really nice way to just interview different professionals, parents, all kinds of people that are on this journey of ADHD, and so that's definitely something that's worth checking out.

Well, thank you for the work that you're doing, and I just love this partnership that you guys have and what you're working on to help families like yours.

It's really powerful stuff.

It's needed.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for the opportunity and for taking the time to chat with us.

We love being here.

Awesome well.

The show notes are available on the website PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com.

And I will see everybody in the next episode.

Take good care.

I see you.

You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.

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