Hey there, everybody.

Welcome to not Another Crime podcast.

I'm Georgia Love, I'm.

Sammy Peterson, I am a journalist, i am not and today we are joined by someone who's absolutely incredible.

We're both a big fan of this person and overjoyed.

We haven't done many zooms in our time, but we are overjoyed.

I'm going to.

Use it again.

Overjoyed to be with the amazing Elizabeth Lamee.

Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

I am overjoyed as well.

The only person who hasn't said that they're overjoyed is Georgia.

No, because now it will sound like I've made it up.

But I'm going to wait for the moment where i feel overwhelmed with joy and I'm going to drop it out.

Yes and well, just Sam, you and I will decide if it's authentic or well, Gradio, that's the segment.

We have a buzzer where we can buzz in it.

I'll go with any line.

This is my first true crime podcast, which I'm so excited to do and thankful that you two woke up early I think to do this with Hi.

Thank you very much.

We didn't need to make that such a big deal, but we did because we're very tired.

We've gone on and on about how early we were is really a rude way to start a podcast.

We've discovered there are very few people who we would do that for, and you, Elizabeth, absolutely one of them.

So listeners will recognize or may recognize your name from your very own podcast, which I know you have many, but one in particular has absolutely blown up recently.

It's one of those ones that all of a sudden you hear it everywhere, everyone's talking about it.

You're going, what what is this?

Bethstead?

Can you just give us your elevated pitch about this podcast?

Bethstead?

Yeah, thank you so much.

So we my husband and I have been podcasting since twenty ten.

Really the first podcast very Were.

We got in real early by accident.

You know.

We always joke about we're very good at putting energy towards things that are not monetizable, So that was what it was.

So we had a podcast and it developed into four different podcasts by twenty sixteen.

It's when the story happened, and what happened was something crazy, and it involves parasocial relationships and long story short, A fan of ours was Monica Padman, who you know from Armchair Expert, and she asked us one day why we stopped podcasting in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and we told her this story and she was like, we have to make a podcast.

So the podcast is her interviewing us about this story of this wild thing that happens.

And it was so crazy that we got the lapd involved.

At the time we stopped all of our podcasts, we like lived with a new level of kind of distrust for a long time, and then in doing this podcast, Monica got involved and became kind of a Nancy Drew and the twists and turns continued.

So it's a ride.

I think it absolutely is.

When when you stopped podcasting for a while, was that just you know, was it hard to kind of get back in and want to tell this story?

If that was something that made you want to stop podcasting in general.

Yeah, And actually yes it was.

We were like moths to a flame.

And so Andy and I started our podcast back up again, and I think twenty twenty two it's called Nobody's Listening, right, and it's just him and I, but we have safety kind of at some place where we're not interacting with listeners.

Really, we changed the format a little bit to feel better about things, but we have also learned we can't not podcast.

As you guys know, it's a it's a it's an intense drug.

So but in the making of this podcast, we made it over two years, and all three of us at different times brought to the group, I don't know if we should do this, Like, I don't know if we should put it out.

It feels dangerous, and so that was definitely a big part of the conversation.

I think you'll hear it on the podcast, to us debating if what we're doing is so stupid still still might be.

We you know, have yet to know.

So for people who haven't listened to it, where we might be sounding really vague, we're going to do a bit of a spoilers section later on for anyone who wants to hear it.

But that's why we're being a bit vague about this story.

But it sounds like we haven't listened to it.

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like we're those those terrible interviewers who go, so, just tell us what it's about and then we'll no.

I appreciate I appreciate that.

Actually, I can give a little more detail When you said elevator pitch just for anyone.

The thing that happened is that people would write into our podcast for our very unqualified advice.

Andy and I had no business giving anyone advice, but we did.

And at the time, I was a brand new mom to two tiny humans and working through some stuff, and I developed relationships with especially young women who needed help.

And one of those young women for the title, was named Beth, and that relationship took on.

It's a life of its own, and lessons were learned.

But yeah, so that's kind of the jumping off point for the story with no spoilers.

And also, like you know, this was a very different kind of podcast for you.

So you said before that this is your first true crime podcast, is as being, you know, doing a more documentary series.

I don't know why I said that so strangely, it is very early.

I will say it again, I am ever joyed to be here, Elizabeth, But the joy the documentary style.

You know, it's a conversation between you three.

But was that something you know that you've always wanted to do or was this a completely new avenue where you never kind of thought that you would.

It's like true crime, kind of a vein of a true crime story, really it is.

Yeah, no, never would have one or two.

I am.

I'm a TV writer, so I do write shows, and I did.

I was on a show called A Million Low Things for a few years and one of the episodes that I wrote in that show for like our beloved younger female character played by Lizzie Green, She's Incredible, was based on something that happened to me.

And the way we told the story was very similar to the way we crafted the story for this, where the audience is learning what's happening at the same time that the character is.

So I think I had I think I love to tell stories obviously, and you know that's my my jam.

So it was exciting for me and all of us.

It was really a collaboration, but to figure out the best way to lay out the story to tell it, and also the three of us just have fun chemistry, and so I feel like, I mean, it's a creepy story.

It's not like all fun and games or anybody any stretch, But we I think brought kind of of just our own style to it and didn't want we wanted that to definitely be in place, so a lot of thought was given to how it's coming across, and it took a long time to make, and it definitely flexed muscles I didn't have or didn't feel like I needed to have.

But yeah, but now I'm like, it was really fulfilling.

And there were some choices we made, like episode eight, I don't know if you remember what that one was, the crafting of something where you know, we made the choice to keep it very like it's all there, very lightly edited, if at all.

So those were choices that we knew like some people wouldn't like and some people would, but we got to make it the way we wanted it, which was unlike in TV, also so fulfilling because you just get to make the thing and put it out, which is so cool.

When you when you started as well, did you kind of know where you were going to go with it?

Was it just you know, the germ of the idea was like, we're just going to see what happens, or you know, like, were you kind of because you sound quite a terrified of where it's going to go?

Is that is that something where you thought, oh no, if we get two years into this, because I kind of wonder with ending sometimes is that, you know, sometimes you can I've made documentaries in the past where you know, you get to a certain point and then you go, oh, no, there's no ending, like you know, unless for something.

Yeah, yeah, like you know you're kind of going, what's the ending.

Did you kind of worry at some point that it would just be well, that was good in a good two years?

Yes, yeah, I mean I think that I think that was definitely concern.

It still felt like a story that was worthy of telling.

And but setting out I had like I created a rough outliner and everyone we'd in and it honestly staged pretty true to it until it took on a life of its own, and then the outline kind of evolved as we went.

So, but we kind of we had a very loose framework and then in each episode, like we kind of knew that the general direction we were heading, and I think Monica did such a great job of like leading us through that each episode.

But the framework was pretty adhered to, and it kind of had to be because there was so much information to get out and if you would believe it, like that wasn't even all of the inform, you know, it's we still had to be discerning and but yeah, that but there was definitely like we had alternative endings that were options, I guess for us to kind of explore and talk about things, but the ending then just happened to us.

Yeah.

I believe one of the endings was a dance, a dance between you three.

I would have been overjoyed to see that.

However, it is.

Genuine, I don't know, harder to see the dance.

And that's why we brought you here today.

Elizabeth on camera five six.

For you, I am wearing my Bob Fossy like all black perfect.

She's one of mine.

For parasocial relationships, that's a big theme in the podcast.

Has it kind of changed the way you post on Instagram?

Has it changed the way that you kind of you know, live your life in a way online.

Absolutely, and doing this just validated that so much, this thing happening.

I scribed my kids from Instagram.

I'm like very careful about being like not really sharing where we live exactly, and if we go somewhere, like I don't post about it until we're not there, you know, things like that.

So and especially being a parent, I think.

You know, we had a fellow Aussie on as like an expert speaking to us in the podcast, and she was so great and she just really kind of validated my need to protect my kids.

And it's hard as podcasters because it's they are our life.

And even on Instagram, I feel bad sometimes because I'm like, they're the main thing in my life.

But if you looked at my Instagram you would think I'm like just about cleavage and no, I'm just kidding.

You can follow Elizabeth.

Actually I think it's probably like coffee and I don't know what, but but that's not it's important actually still coffees, yes, but yeah, I just am really And now with AI, we didn't even get into that.

But the stuff with AI where they can like take someone's face and basically have them doing anything, yeah, makes me very fearful for like adolescence, you know, coming up, and so I'm very I'm not glad this happened, but i am glad for that lesson where I don't think I would you know, I don't think that I would have taken those precautions if it work so.

Well, because parent social relationships are like you know, Monica Padman Kind of had one with you two, like you know, the it is even though she'd met you.

It is weird that, like, I had a parasocial relationship with you through listening to the podcast, and I was like, I'll just reach out and ask her on the podcast, and you know, you kind of do something else.

Yeah, yeah, No, you're a little bit worried, Elizabeth.

As the end of the culp No, but there is a there is a part where I'm a fan of podcasts and being you know, I do stand up and being in the comedy world.

I know the people that do the podcast and I listen to mostly.

But what I find weird is sometimes I'm having a conversation knowing a fact about them that they've just said that week on a podcast, And you kind of do have a more intimate relationship with people sometimes that you think you do.

You think you do the relationship you actually have.

Yeah, did you notice that in the in the wild when when you tour about, Like, did you notice that people like kind of had this parasocial relationship with you.

Was that something that that kind of came up a.

Bit with me.

Yeah, yeah, when you're doing the podcast.

You know, it's funny I feel like the only times I'm ever like recognized is when I'm with Monica.

Yeah right, something is like oh podcasting, and you know, I think she experiences that all the time.

I do have some friends who are so sweet to listen to our show, and so sometimes something will slip in and I'm like, oh, right, you know, and I think, as you two probably know it will actually you're still young and have neurons firing and stuff.

But I forget what we talked about, like the second it's out of my mouth.

So sometimes someone will bring something up and I'm like, when did I tell you that?

You know that sort of thing where?

But I too, I listen to podcasts.

One of my friends podcasts, June Dian Raphael and Jessica Saint Clair have a great podcast called The Deep Dive.

And my issue as someone who has both a real and parasocial relationship is I'm I cannot resist like live texting them as I'm listening, and they're like, oh my god, we recorded that like three weeks ago, Like I don't need to relive it with you, but it is.

It is very interesting, and I do think because it's such an intimate medium, I understand because I'm on the other end of it, feeling like you know the person and almost like if they say something you don't agree with, you're disappointed in or we got we were talking about speaking of dancing, Andy and I spoke about dancing recently in a way that you know, we can be a little snarky sometimes and we're giving people shit, the people who basically like go out on the dance floor first and just go big yep.

And the truth is like in my real life, I don't really care like everyone should dance, that they want to dance, but I think because people have expectations of us, some people were really upset that we were like dissing dancing the big dances.

Well you can know exactly who was upset about that was the big dances.

Yeah, we saw you busting some moves on the coldest before.

Yeah, So I in that sense, I'm like, you probably wouldn't be that upset.

I mean, in a way, it's flattering.

It's like you care enough or like think of us a certain way enough to feel the need to take to your keyboard, you know, which I appreciate.

But also it's like it's like they're your cousin or something they're like disappointed in you.

But also they have the anonymity of the Internet, so it's just very interesting.

And then of course, by and large, our fans are incredible, which is also why when all of this happened, it was really not expected at all.

And unlike people like Monica and people have massive platforms, we have like a very you know, proud of it, but not like a huge, massive, popular podcast.

It's medium small, I'd say, youth medium large.

I don't know.

I'm doing T shirt sizing, and so it's not like I feel like the bigger.

It's the more kind of I don't know, like negativity jumps into the pool, which we haven't experienced really at all.

We've been really lucky.

Well, before we kind of get into the spoiler section, I thought it might be worth mentioning like a little bit more about the show.

So, you know, one of the letters comes through with someone called Beth, and you had these letters that you were giving advice on and then you get some devastating news one day after helping Beth through some problems for a long time, and you find out the news that that Beth is Beth is in fact dead.

You hear that from someone else.

Oh no, spoilers, that's not written on the artwork and spoiler you.

Yeah, you find you find that out.

And and so for you that that feeling of hearing that and it was a you know, you got really invested in in this story.

How how did that kind of change, you know, the way that you were giving advice and did it just kind of completely change who you were in that moment?

Because I can imagine that it's such a massive thing from you know, the way you describe your podcast as a median, small kind of podcast and then all of a sudden there's this huge, devastating thing that happened.

It was that something that kind of changed you right away?

How did you cope with with hearing that?

Use?

Yeah, No, it definitely did.

And it was really interesting doing the podcast.

I went we went back through all of my correspondence with Beth that I hadn't looked at since that time, which was like eight years prior.

Yeap.

It definitely changed so much in I think, so this was our podcast called Totally Married, and I think you can probably hear it like we ended up staffing everything about a year later because well for multiple reasons, but I became way less confident giving advice to anyone for t regularly, like if it seemed like it was this actual situation that needed real advice.

Hearing it back, I was pretty horrified at like some of the advice or this is so it's I was horrified in a way because we would give advice publicly on the podcast, and sometimes especially Andy would be like, get out, get out of the relationship, right, He'd just be very black and white about things, and I'd be like, well, And in this case, though, I was corresponding with her personally, and so there was like a gray area for me.

But I was giving her big advice and I didn't know her.

And it's weird, Like it's weird saying it now.

I'm looking back and going, what the fuck was I doing.

But I also think it's been interesting now that this has been out, Like a lot of people have waged about the fact that I was so postpartum and you're you don't have sleep, your hormones are everywhere, your you know, your sense of identity is just like it's just a crazy time.

And so I almost feel like I didn't give that enough kind of credence and the I don't know if that's the right word, but you know what I mean, I think it was.

It was the time, it was the situation, it was that she had access to us in that way.

And but yeah, it changed, I mean it changed everything.

At what point did you realize there was a crime, there had had been a crime?

Are we talking spoilers?

Now, let's do it if you're happy to yeah, yep.

So, dear listeners, turn off.

Now if you if.

You don't want to know, no, no, well don't turn off.

Pause, go and listen to it.

Ten episodes are best dead and then come back.

So the we really didn't know it was a crime until we spoke with the LAPD detective.

But what had happened was we got an email from Beth's account telling us, and it was from her brother Jason, that she had died by suicide.

And I was devastated, and there very quickly Jason started becoming really aggressive and almost like accusing me of having some part in it and asking me if I was her therapist, which I at the time internalized as like, oh my god, I did have a part in this, Like, you know, it was really awful, and I really cared about her as well, and then in the meantime there were all these other listeners that I had also been corresponding with and dealing with.

In our comment sect, we had a massive comments section.

This was like back in the day when there was like live journals and people it was so it was like so much activity in her comments, and so I was getting to know people there also and moderating sometimes.

And long story short, we my friend Hammy Sager.

Actually it was her birthday yesterday.

Yes.

She pointed out that this was strange behavior from a brother whose sister just died by suicide to be going through her email, and that kind of lifted a veil to me, and I thought, oh, my gosh, is this something is something weird about this, And so what we did was we looked up Best's IP addresses linked to her comments on our website, and when you click on like it was a hyperlink, and when you click on it, all the comments she made or all the comments from that IP address would come up.

And to her horror, it was Beth, it was these other characters, Natasha and Andrews, it was Frank, it was some others, And we realized that this was all one person who was acting as all these different people, so we'd been catfished pretty pretty good.

I let'ld see pretty pretty thoroughly.

Did you realize right away with the IPA dress, because it was making excuses saying, we all live in the same block of apartments and I've been suggesting it at our group gatherings and that's why it's the same IPAY dress.

So there's lots of excuses there and hanging on to keep this line alive.

Did you realize right away?

We knew as soon as we saw that, and it was a real like, oh, this is all one person now.

I still it took me a minute to kind of unravel, like I wondered, is was Beth acting as all one person?

Who?

I still thought that one of them was real?

And didn't I think Andy, My husband more quickly jumped to like, there's someone behind this who's none of these people.

No one died by suicide.

There's no brother who's like bereft going through his sister's emails.

And that's when we stopped responding.

And that's when whoever did this basically was trying to clean up their mess they made and saying, oh, did you figure it out?

By our ip addresses.

It turns out we all lived together, which is so funny.

Sam and Georgia like, how many barbecues do you hear of wherever?

Listening to a podcast?

Yeah, and then going and commenting while they're still sitting around the barbecue.

Yeah, it's beautiful listening party.

It's lovely.

I know.

I wish I'm sad I miss the invite.

I would have shown up.

They would have loved it as well.

They loved you, Elizabeth, they did.

I found that part of it really interesting from a crime perspective of seeing the catfish really unraveled very quickly in terms of panicking and thinking that you had worked something out before you'd actually said that you had.

And a lot of the crime stories we talk about, you know, be they very infamous murder stories or smaller things that we found out from things like podcasts that happened so often where people really unravel and panic and that and I suppose they panic and that's when things unravel.

What was that like for you to witness and experience kind of watching this happen and knowing what to do or not while that was all unfollowing in real time?

It was terrifying it was like because just we had no idea who this was.

And we did figure out who we thought it was pretty pretty quickly.

But during those couple of weeks while they were panicking, I was like, I mean we had our locks changed, which was insane.

I was like, should we go stay in a hotel?

We just we had a tiny, little one bedroom like bungalow in LA where you can easily figure out where we lived.

I was like, oh my god, I've talked about my kids' daycare, which is across the street.

I've mentioned their take care woman's by name, by name, and I was thinking, are they going to show up to the daycare and say, like, you know, Jennifer, are you Jennifer?

And like I was so out of my mind with fear.

And that's when we reached out to this detective at LAPD, like through a friend who has a security situation because they're celebrity, so they have like a special security person who's friends with this detective.

Not really thinking there was a crime, because you know, you think of crimes as more you know, physical, and so I honestly just wanted to talk to him about like what we could best do to protect ourselves and potentially get it to stop.

And that's ultimately what happened is this detective called this person.

He didn't like there have been questions about this aspect of it.

We had figured out who the person was with some location tagging locations of where they were and basically gave this detective a massive binder of everything and of the evidence we had.

He wasn't like actually taking this on as a case and doing the detective work.

He like, I filed a report and he was like, there is enough here if you wanted to.

I don't even know what the terms are that you would know like file a crime or like get a warrant or whatever and.

Like potentially be able to press charges if they can find enough evidence.

I guess yeah, like get a warrant for this person's computers and work with their state authority.

It was just like, no, I literally just wanted to stop, and so the detective just called this person and it stopped.

But I always wondered, like, yeah, is this person going to show up?

They seemed very obsessed.

So that's not a good feeling.

That's something I've been really interested to ask you about because it's there's so much trust involved.

In this whole story, lad up to the point where you decided to do this podcast?

Trust both ways.

You know, you trusted Beth to be properly interacting with you.

She trusted you.

You know, this person trusted you not to press charges or get warrants around.

Why did you feel it got to that point that you you trusted that they were just going to stop?

You'd been so terrified, he said, you, you know, to describe your social media of your kids.

But what was there just kind of some deep belief.

Was it the parasocial relationship you'd had with this person, albeit through false identities online, that you did have that trust there with them?

I never felt it until doing the full podcast.

Now now I do.

Sorry.

I that's part of why we had to start doing the podcast is because I didn't.

Anytime a question came in that was even like kind of interesting, I thought it was that this person and that makes for a really shitty podcast.

I feel bad.

Especially our patrons who are like supporting us were like, oh god, it's really good.

Yeah, yeah, we're just like, I don't know.

I do feel like all of my answers started to become like you should talk to a therapist.

Like you shouldn't be reaching a yeah, but I and there was one question and I actually feel bad about it now, but I remember it came in and we publar on the podcast were like, I don't think this is real.

And the person wrote in like it was a little unhinged also, but the person wrote in like so offended and you know, she was traumatized, and I was like certain, and there were other things like she used double spaces, she did all of these things that that person did.

And now upon, I mean, I believe that it wasn't that person.

So I do feel kind of bad looking back on that.

But we were just so like hyper vigilant.

Yeah, what did you not want to press charges or get the warrant?

It's such a terrifying experience that you went through.

What made you was it the feeling of not really thinking it had become a crime.

Yet maybe I mean I feel like, uh, I had been reassured by the detective kind of that.

And I think you hear this on the podcast.

The people who do this sort of thing almost never, I mean there are exceptions, but almost never actually show up like they're kind of cowardly behind keyboards or whatever it is.

And so, and I'm not in the business of like ruining people's lives or you know, I just like this person had a family.

I didn't want to mess you know, I didn't want to ruin the family's life.

They had nothing to do with this.

And it wasn't a crime that was so horrific in my opinion that it like this person needed to be locked up or was like such a danger.

I also I was Also it came with shame of like I fell for something, I got duped and I trusted that No, like other people, I now know this is not right, but at the time, I thought, no one else is getting duped like this, So I wasn't like worried that this was necessarily happening to other people to the same degree.

And I did even then recognize as this perfect storm of we have this public right into us, and I was this person who would engage.

And so, yeah, I never really caught I never really seriously contemplating contemplated pressing charges, especially when the detector was like, I'll just call him and scare the shit out of him, and that's what happened.

So then I thought, I thought, oh, if it continues, then we'll have to get serious.

But if it stops at least on the surface, I'm okay with that.

There was a point as well when you realize that Beth did not dive from suicide and that you'd been kind of living with this.

Was it anger that took over when you found out that you'd kind of been through this all through a you know, a different person than you thought, or was it was it relief?

What do you remember kind of what you felt?

And also I was like, when did you tell your partner that you'd been having this relationship over email with talking to someone?

Yeah?

I think I think I told him either when I found out that she died or when we were looking at the IP addresses.

I don't think he knew the extent of it.

And honestly, I didn't really know the extent of it until doing this podcast and looking back and be like, oh my god, I was replying at like three am, you know, so intense.

So I think I was relieved that no one died by suicide.

I mean that was but I was pissed off that had my friend Tammy not like set my head straight, I would have gone on forever thinking like having this guilt.

So yeah, I was.

I was a lot of feelings, and then I was mostly just scared, and I felt so guilty, like having two little kids and feeling like I hadn't done right by them all the way, Like I felt really guilty.

You know, yeah, when I mean, this is a major spoiler.

But you found out that the person who you thought it was, so you had this preconceived idea from the research you've done it IP addresses that it was this person, and you know, I could imagine myself in that situation going okay, I kind of put that to bed.

I know who that person is.

I wouldn't.

I would be guns blazing, go straight in Georgia.

Going knock on the door.

Yeh.

But but for you, when you realize that you know it is someone that you didn't think it was, it's a completely different person.

There's a there's a phone call that happens, and you're not involved in the phone call at first, in the in the confrontation.

How did you feel meeting the person who had kind of done all of this, the instigator of it.

Did you were you kind of scared to get on that call to talk to them for the first time.

It's interesting, I was so scared when we like initially reached out and I was like, are we really doing this?

I was scared for them.

At one point in time, Monica was going to go with someone else to confront them, and I was scared about that.

I was like, oh that whenever that is, I'm not sleeping.

I'm going to be just like a bundle of nerves.

But the way this person responded and was willing to do it made me feel like, like, you know, we send an email and he wrote back, I'm not really keen to visit the darkest time of my life or something like that, which that I was like, Okay, he's not denying.

I mean he he seemed like he was willing to have like a real conversation about it, which was shocking to me given my own parasocial relationship with him, because I had tracked him over the years, like I always kind of kept an eye on him and didn't like him, and like my ideas of who he was didn't totally match up with that.

So I was like, Okay, that's interesting.

And then you know, I don't know what you want to say or not say it, but that all made sense pretty quick, so I guess.

A question I've got.

I suppose we're talking about eight years of time of back and forth and lies and deception and confusion.

Listening to that episode nine of the podcast, there is a lot of belief straight away.

What we why?

My entire question why.

Is yeah, I know that and there I know there are great theories out there, and listen, they've been illuminating also because it's so funny, like we put this out.

Never in a million did we think that there would be any like doubt about that, But that's been you know, I thought people would have other issues.

Also, I think I want to say, so you don't think I'm not doubting, and I'm really interested as from probably and probably people who consume so much true crime of going people live people these So what was it that made you really wholeheartedly just believe straight away and not be cynical and burnt by what this person had done to you before?

I think I think it was a couple of factors.

One that he was willing to speak to us so openly.

That was the other thing is we were kind of shocked that he was game, and we thought we'd have to like trick him into you know, speaking with us, and so we already had a sense of appreciation almost that he was willing to do this and wanted to be respectful.

And because that's I mean, say what you will about anyone, that's very brave to do, I think, to be willing to own up to something and obviously a very uncomfortable conversation for all of us, but I think like for him especially, and then just the way he came across now he might have been manipulating us.

I still am not like one hundred percent on a couple things.

I'm a high percentage about most of it.

But like I think if there was manipulation during that call, it just came from a place of embarrassment and shame.

And all I wanted out of that was to not be scared of him anymore.

Yeah, And like, no matter how you how the cookie crumbles, I'm not like if it's him, if it's whatever, if he was telling the full truth or half truth or none of it was true, I just don't find him a threat anymore.

And so that was such a weightlifted.

Yes, one hundred percent got closure, and he the other thing is he was I believe like, no, he didn't remember a lot of things, which, to be fair, I didn't either.

Until we went through all of everything, it was like, oh right, we did a nude photoshooting stuff like that.

I had completely forgotten.

He So I don't know if that was true or not, but I could see it being true.

I could see it not being true.

But he was remorseful.

He was not going, he was not there to defend himself.

He and I think that also really moved all of us, Like, I think that so and you know, we talk about this.

We had to change his voice and just seeing him and we were also I mean, I guess, can I do the big spoiler?

I don't know.

So it wasn't who we thought it was.

It was his son, and he looks a lot like who we thought it was also, but the younger version there there was like a long silence that we edited out because it was too long and confusing, but where we were all just like, I mean, Andy and Monica who were on with him, were just like it was so such a mind fuck, yes, like and then finding our footing, you know, they had to find their footing and asking him questions, but it was like really jarring, really really jarring.

So I think that was another reason that we were just kind of like I think about it, where we're like, no, we're sorry.

That was great, and that was such a good insight and into human character of going.

You know, I joke before I'd be going in guns blazing like I would, and then you're confronted with something like this, and I think it's a really good lesson in not doing that and taking the time to stop, step back and think.

And again, you know, people listening to this will be listening because it's a true crime cop podcast and or that they've seen the episode name of this one and want to hear from you.

But we do talk a lot.

The reason we talk about the crimes is because we know they've happened.

They've got some kind of resolution in most points, so we can go in, go this fucking guy and how gross and now we know they were lying.

But this is really the opposite of that.

It's feeling like there is a crime that has happened, could have happened, may happen.

We're not sure if it's a time or not.

So you're going to go in from that kind of investigative level, but not treating it as a crime.

And I think maybe that's been a good lesson for I was gonna say, Samy's looking at me, going no, g listen for you.

I'm just an angry person.

But I you know, I did a comedy show this year, Elizabeth about you know, just complicated people, you know, and and the thing that I talk about a lot is because it's about addicts, and I talk about, you know, my relationship with addicts over the years, and that hurt people, hurt people, you know, and and there's.

Not funny, but there's what a great bit.

But there's there's a lot of gray area in everything.

Not everything black and white, there's a lot of gray.

And I think what was really interesting is that you can you can't get all the answers all the time, and that for me, like Gee was saying, that can be really frustrating because you're kind of going, but what do you mean?

You don't remember because it was so peopotol to you.

I've had friends of mine say I remember when you said this years ago, and it really stuck with me and I'm like, I don't remember the segment at all.

But for you to to actually do this and go, oh wow, like this is everything, This is kind of a closed chapter for me?

Really, did you know, has there been a point where you've been like and another thing like I wish exception, Yeah, have you wanted to kind of reach back out and have there been moments when you've been like, not reach back out and be but friends?

But you know, have there been a moment when you've been like, oh, but what about that?

What about this?

What about that time?

Especially because of the shock during that initial call, were there things you thought, Oh, we didn't ask and that now that's settled down a bit, I wish we.

Had maybe, but no.

It's so funny because I think everyone kind of operates differently, just how you're saying, like, you know, you want to go in guns blazing, and Sam has a different you know, he does a comedy show about it.

I feel like all I wanted out of it was to not feel scared anymore, and I got it, and I kind of it.

Kind of what I realized was like all of those details didn't super matter anyway.

It was really interesting to us, and it would have been interesting to get like his take or perspective on certain things.

Now there are some things that he his response to some things that I'm like I don't know if that's right or if that comes from covering because you're embarrassed or what so like, there are still question marks, of course, but I think that is the thing.

You're not going to have all the answers, and a lot of people don't have answers to things way more intense than this, and you know, you still have to live your life.

And so my hope is the takeaway is kind of this, like you don't know everything, and you're maybe not going to know everything, but all you can do is like find your own peace in the way that you need to.

And I feel like this doing this podcast gave me that where I hadn't even though it had ended almost a decade earlier, I hadn't been able to like feel peace at peace with it.

So and for that, I'm so grateful to him.

We reached back out one more time, just thanking him, and the vibe was definitely like like we're never talking again, you know.

It was definitely like a goodbye and be well or wish you well type thing and not I mean maybe we were a little bit too like thank you so much.

I don't know, because it is funny we did that and I felt a certain way about it, and then we spent months editing this and like compiling and you know, even though it sounds very not edited, which it's not in many ways, but just like you know, you know, it's like putting a podcast out there.

There's lots of stuff to be done, and listening back through all of it so many times I kind of like started to feel like that was really bad, that was really messed up what happened.

So, yeah, I don't know.

I think that the complication of humanity is just like on display in this and my hope.

Everyone's had really different reactions and some people are like, there's no justice, and you know there it's like all across and some people are like it's so cruel that you guys are laughing earlier when you know what the ending is.

You know, there's like it's all across the board.

And at the end of the day, I'm just like, it's making people think and feel and that's the best.

That's the best thing, I think.

So I didn't kind of have one more question really about you know, you said that you said kind of a fine good bye, So you have no idea if he's listened to the or if one of the aliases have.

Yeah, anders is on aug Yeah he I I feel like he probably has.

I don't know, and I think that that would probably be hard for someone and also to not be able to like speak to it or you know, my if things is always to like yes, even even even I mean, it's like I haven't learned my lesson even like the responses, I want to kind of jump and be like, oh, actually you know, and he's like you can't.

I also want to say that the response has been overwhelmingly so positive and supportive, and we've heard from people who were like I was weeping at the end and like, you know.

So I don't mean to just point out the kind of extreme responses, but I would guess he has listened.

Although I mean this comes with like, what did I really believe?

I think before it was out, I would have guessed he hadn't, And now that it's out and we've heard like from people's different perspectives, I think he probably has.

I don't know.

Yeah.

That reminds me A really big bit for me, and listening to your podcast is when the three of you were discussing whether he when you emailed him, whether he'd email back or not, and you and Monica were really adamant that he wouldn't, and Andy straight up said he absolutely will, absolutely will.

This is everything we know about him is that he wants his contact, and that's kind of what you're saying now.

On the other side as well, I think I believe what Andy said in that about listening back to this podcast.

Now he's he's that kind of or at least at some point in his life, has been that kind of person where he's wanted to interact, He's wanted to hear his words through Anders or Frank or Beth or whoever it were.

I personally think he would have listened also, maybe maybe in a form of kind of preparing for some kind of self defense if someone works out it was him and he wants to know what's being said.

Yeah, I mean, I yes, I agree.

Andy is so annoying that like he he always like he gets it right a frustrating amount of times where I'm like there's no way, and he's like it is and he just has this knowing and then of course he's fucking right.

But this was a good example of, like, I think everything you said is right.

He now the person we spoke with mentioned a huge part of this was addiction and that that's no longer a part of their life.

So that's the only thing that I'm like, if it's so compartmentalized, maybe maybe, but you know, he might be listening to that.

You guys might have a new fan.

Please do leave a five star writing five star review, and if you're listening, Oh.

Litzibeth, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us where we just loved listening to the podcast and thinking about it really made me think about it.

We've had so many discussions, the two of us sitting down just chatting about it ourselves.

So I know that everyone who's listened has been doing this and this is why we wanted to chat to you, just to have another excuse to have a conversation about it.

It was fantastic, So congratulations on that, and thank you for sharing.

Thank you with us us being the world of podcast listeners, but us being two of us as well and our listeners.

Thank you so much for having me.

This was a delight and yeah, I really appreciate this and this was such a positive.

I'm glad I was on my first true crime podcast as not a purp.

Yeah, you know, but.

If or when the time comes, we'd love to interview you again.

Whatever crime you can.

Thank you.

And where do people find you?

Elizabeth as well?

And you know, obviously Beth's dead, they can search on all the apps.

But but yeah, where do people find you?

Yeah, I'm Elizabeth Lame on Instagram as la I am Georgia your love.

Yes, yep, not made up.

So we have.

So my last name is the loved one in French actually, so we have.

And my best friend's name is Elizabeth.

So there we go.

Oh no, oh no, I look at us.

We're making a parasocial relationship.

No back off.

But oh and then also Andrew's in My podcast is called Nobody's Listening, right, and it's once a week.

He and I talk as a married couple.

I mean not about marriage really, but it's us talking like no one's listening, and we do really keep it pretty true to that.

So tune in there and that's it.

You're amazing.

Thank you so much for joining us and being the first crime podcast that you've been on as well.

Yeah, I'm overjoyed with.

That authentic Yeah really hit.

Yeah, thank you