In October nineteen ninety seven, a law student in Canberra, Australia, made a plan to murder her devoted boyfriend after a dinner party.

But it wasn't a secret.

The dinner guests had all heard rumors about the plan and went along with morbid curiosity.

But in what could be described as the ultimate bystander effect, nobody warned the young man.

Surely they thought it was a joke.

Surely everybody knew but him.

This is the devastating case of Joe chinque.

Oh.

I know of this one, but I didn't know all even already all those.

Oh well, you are going to need to strap yourself in.

It's kind of like aws.

Sounded bit like Exactually fuck.

Hey there, everybody, welcome it to It not another crime podcast.

I'm Georgia, I'm Sammy Peterson.

I'm a journalist.

I am not and today if you want to skip ahead and just listen to the story, do you know how to do that?

What do you do?

Ge?

You look at the time stamp in the show notes.

God, you're good, you got that right away?

Thank you.

Has the week been?

It's been okay.

I got a new fridge this week, Actually got a new fridge, and I was feeling I was still a little bit sick when the new fridge was coming, and I was like, this is gonna be quick.

It's gonna be fine.

Or get the fridge in.

It's gonna be great.

And it was a huge fridge.

But I was gonna fit through everything.

It's gonna be great.

They got it through the first door, they got it through the second door, and in my apartment, I have got a slightly narrower doors.

I'm looking at it right now that he's actually quite a narrow door.

It's quite narrow about that.

The first and who sold it to me knew more about fridges than I know about anything in my whole life.

That's so beautiful.

I love that they were very excited about the free door.

Give him a shout out, non spawn Harvey Norman, your salespeople, they.

Were very good with his name.

Harvey.

Yes, Harvey Norman was his name.

That's amazing.

Yes, And yeah, I basically got it through both doors.

Then the next door actual apartment.

Yeah, it just was not going to fit through unless I took the door off.

So they were like, oh we can't, we just can't do it.

And I was doing that thing of going no, just try, just try, just knowing that it wasn't just break the doorframe, break the doorframe, and I designed a thing to be because theres any damage to the fridge like blah blah blah, so I had to do that.

Then I could just see it coming forward and that it just wasn't going to fit in, you know.

And you know, when I well, maybe I just do this.

I do stuff sometimes when I'm like, I know this isn't going to work, but I'd just like you to try.

You have to try, because otherwise will always think what if.

And one of my life mottos is I would rather think.

I would rather have a regret than think what if forever.

Yeah, well you know that.

I well, actually, when I moved into this place, I got dog balls way too.

Small for digs and no, no, no, no, no, you got cat bowls.

I got cat bowles so way too small for digs, and I kept them for longer than I need to because my mum told me that they were too small for him, and I was like, I meant to get them this size, and I kept them just for ages and I was just like, no, I'm right.

I saw them when I first came around here, and I was because you'd said I've got.

Dig some new Yeah, I got very excited.

And I saw them here and I looked at them and I was like, I think they're meant to be for cats.

But I kept it to myself, and then you told me a few weeks later.

He meant I got new bowls because I had accidentally bought cat bolls.

But I refused to admit that because my mom she was which has a thirty three year old man, thirty four year old man is amazing.

It's pretty good.

But yeah, So the door was then taken off.

So took the door off, but it took it took a while to get the door off.

I was feeling really sick.

And then I put the door on the wall and straight away Digs ran out and met the neighbors.

He ran into their place.

Then I had to go into the next door neighbors and get down and he was having the best time ever.

And so Dix is like, I don't think we need a door anymore.

Why was this here in the first place you can visit your neighbors.

And he was running through the apartment just so free, just loving everything.

It was so cute to watch him like they were down and they were fine with it, thank god.

But it was very funny watching him going, I don't need a door.

We need it.

Well, my story for you this week, what's happened this week is also about clearing the way for traffic to get past if you will.

Yeah, it's my segue.

Yeah, my car got towed because I parked.

Yeah.

So, as you guys know, if you listened last week and the week before, I was very sick for two weeks.

The first day I was feeling alive again.

I went to the he addresser, got my hair done, was feeling myself.

Posted on Instagram.

I feel alive again thanks to Reese Mitchel Harrison, my hairdresser, not spawn Um.

Ten minutes later, ten minutes after that post, next post, my fucking car got I went out in front of the addresser.

This sounds made up, I promised to you it is not.

As it opened the door of the hairdresser, I saw the tow truck leaving in front of me, like it was literally driving past me with my car on the back.

I hadn't realized it was a movie moment where I had parked and my hair point went longer than I thought.

This is boring detail.

Blah blah blah.

My car got towed because I parked in a place I shouldn't have.

It cost me so much to get it out of the impound center.

And I'm also going to get a fine like an infringement for having parked in a clear way.

And the freaking toe truck company scratched my new car.

Yeah, and they say they have they don't think they did it.

And they said, well, can you send any photos you took before or during?

And not only photos that have are from the front and you can't sit scratch.

So that was the most expensive haircut of all time.

Thanks for noticing it.

But worth it because Reese something Harrison.

Reese Mitchell Harrison does the best cuts you've ever seen.

He runs a place called Just Cuts.

No, he doesn't, and he does some of the finest hairs from Just Cut.

Georgia Lovely Haircuts haircuts she has lovely haircuts from Reese Mitchell Jordan's Mitchell.

Rich Mitchell Harrison.

He doesn't work at us Carrison.

It was Just Cuts and he does some of the greatest cuts you money can bow.

He works at Melbourne Central No, he doesn't.

Georgia parked on the tram tracks.

No I didn't, No, but you.

But yeah, it's so frustrating because I had that happened to me once and I had just moved to Melbourne.

I didn't know where the car was.

Well yeah, I mean even if you have lived in Melbourne, if you've ever had it toad before, you don't orries Google?

Where does my car?

Hey?

Google?

Where does cargo went to?

Where does cargo to?

Anyway?

So I'm angry because I was sick and I spent a lot of money on well, to be fair, I spent a normal amount of money on my haircut, but I spent a lot of money in my car just for it to get scratched.

And I'm going to put that I have in my Poudrey Peeves list for today, which we forgot last week.

Clearways, but I've just decided to do it as a Harriet.

Hate Harriet hate, because you're furious, aren't you?

Just?

You're furious?

Hey, everybody, we'hen getting to this episode really soon.

But if you want, you can send us an email just another company dot com dot au.

You can leave us a voicemail that's called a speak Pipe.

All the links are below.

Lead said as an email at Sammy it just another company dot com.

I got the email address right though.

Follow us on Instagram and TikTok getting on another crime podcast.

You must leave us the five star rating him than a Slaver survive star.

Yes, thank you so much, everybody.

Enjoy this week's episode Sammy Special.

Today it's a Sami Special.

Enjoy the riffins.

No spont no if you want to spawn though emas at Sammy just another company.

This case has affected me in more ways than I could have imagined.

I picked up the book by Helen Ghana, Joe Chinkway's Consolation, after going to buy Helen Ghana's latest book on the mushroom cook Aaron Patterson our favorite.

This story is devastating and it's honestly a case that I cannot stop thinking about.

I read the book quickly, I listened to anything I could, and I feel like my mind was pretty made up about how I felt about what happened.

I'd love to hear your opinion, Ge, and I'd also love to hear what listeners think.

Brinita tells the story first.

Okay, okay, you know you're right you are right, Thank you.

I usually.

Joe was murdered.

What I didn't expect to learn was how many complex feelings I had about the killer and the friend who helped her.

Oh okay.

In fact, it resonated with me on a personal level, with my own brother developing drug psychosis and completely changing as a brother I once loved and grew up with.

I cannot recommend the book highly enough.

As always, I commit my undying love for Helen Ghana and how she can find the human in people who were often deemed monsters.

It's interesting to say that, because I mean just that sentence itself, a lot of people would say, well, no, there's no human in here.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's how beautifully she writes, and how I suppose in depth she goes into her story.

Yes, and she looks at things a different way.

Yeah.

This is a story of a man's life who was taken too soon, far too soon, and a complex look into the lives and why from what we can glean, the pair did it and why no one did anything to stop it.

My God, tell me what happened?

Well, do you know a lot about this case already?

No?

I know that a girlfriend, I think it was like a murder, like a suicide pack.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, she backed out.

That's about all I remember.

Okay, well we'll go into it, and I really want to hear your thoughts on it.

Yeah, because it is.

It's really fascinating and there's a lot.

There's a lot in here.

Joe Chinkwe was a twenty six year old engineer living with his girlfriend, a new Singh in their terrace house in Canberra.

Yeah, I remember, I remember a news name.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's an interesting part of this, but I think it's kind of glossed over when I read the trans script of the Call to the Ambulance.

I'd like you to keep in mind what kind of house they lived in.

Joe was working full time and a new was finishing her final year of law.

Joe was killed.

That's ironic, I know.

Yeah, Well, all the people that were at the dinner party were actually lawyers.

Oh my god, Joe was killed by a lethal injection of heroin while he was unconscious from rohipnol, which she had drugged him with in his coffee.

Oh my god.

I'm going to refer to the book for a transcript of the Call to the ambulance.

This is what Halen Ghana writes as the opening to that transcript.

He's even getting out.

His physical book, like I put a little post it note.

Oh my god, you're so cute, just like my father.

Why is there an apple on the cover.

We'll get into it.

A bad apple to it?

Well you hey apple asle Okay, very big apple.

The house he died in on Sunday twenty sixth of October nineteen ninety seven was not far from the Canberra Ambulance headquarters.

Oh, the paramedics would have been able to reach him in a flash, but it took the dispatcher almost twenty minutes to get to the right address from the hysterical young woman who placed the zero zero zero call, the triple zero call.

Like all emergency calls, this one was recorded.

This is the male dispatcher.

Okay, and the phone number you're ringing from.

Could I get an ambulance please?

I have a person potentially overdosed on heroine.

Potentially overdosed.

Well he's not.

He's vomiting everywhere, blood stuff.

He's vomiting blood right.

Okay, what's the address?

Is that a bad sign?

What's the address?

Can you hang on, Please just tell me.

Is that a bad sign?

That's well, it's not good if he's vomiting blood?

Oh is he going to be?

Okay?

I don't know.

I'll send an ambulance for them to check him out.

Fair enough.

What's the address?

Thirty Antil Street?

Is that a flat or a house?

Oh?

It's a flat?

What number is Antil Street?

What number in Antel Street?

What's going to happen?

What's the flat number?

Oh?

Shit, shit, listen to me, says apparently medic again.

Oh hang on, what am I going to do?

Settle down?

Settle down?

Okay, what am I going to do?

Well?

If you tell me the address, I'll get an ambulance out to you.

Will he be?

Okay?

Oh?

This is so frustrating.

I don't know.

We'll have to get an ambulance to you to assess him.

What is the number of the flat in Antel is is?

Oh shit?

What is the number of the flat in Antel Street?

It's seventy nine?

Maybe flat thirty seventy nine?

Is that correct?

Yeah?

No, hang on, flat thirty?

Hang on?

Where's the ambulance.

The ambulance is at Dixon.

Now just calm down.

What's your name.

What's your name?

Oh shit, he's vomiting blood?

What and the dispatcher again says, what's your name?

I know?

Who says?

Is he going to die?

What is your name?

Tell me?

Tell me?

Please?

Cries?

What is your name?

Oh?

Oh god, Olivia says anw oh what is your name?

Please?

Olivia?

Olivia?

Oh fuck?

Hang on?

Hang on?

What's the number you're ringing from?

Hang on?

His heart's still beating?

Good right, Okay, just settle down, for God's sake, says the dispatcher.

Oh God.

To be pretty uncommon, you'd think for a dispatcher to say that flat thirty seventy nine Antil Street.

Okay, we've got the flat thirty seventy nine, No, seventy nine Antil Street.

What's the flat number?

It's a townhouse?

What it's seventy nine in Antil Street?

Yeah, yeah, get here quickly.

All right, we've got someone there.

Now.

Now that was not the only call that was made that night, but it's a really interesting call because a new calls herself Olivia in that call, name of time a number of times.

And as we heard before, they lived in a townhouse.

And it was her address she lived there.

I lived there.

Yeah, yeah, which could be you know, she was like, what happened?

Yeah, exactly, because the way that reads is as if she didn't really know she was there for a dinner party.

She didn't really know the address she was at, so she was trying to find out what it was.

And I mean, god, touch would.

I don't know what it's like to be in that situation where you're panicking and calling an ambulance.

But I mean it's very easy to say from this point of view, but you would think you could just spit out the address if you knew it.

You think you'd be able to Yeah, it was your own home.

On June eleventh, nineteen seventy one, Joe was born to Nino and Maria Chinque in Newcastle, New South Wales.

He was named after his grandfather, Giuseppe or Joe for sure.

That a beautiful Yeah, it was a way to carry on his heritage.

They thought she most that's right, German heritage.

They thought he was the most beautiful baby they'd ever seen, do you.

I mean most parents say that about that.

Mine did not about me.

What because my older sister Katie was the most beautiful baby anyone's ever seen.

And then I came out and my mom was like, oh, she does not look like she does look like The reason my godmother is my godmother is because she was like, oh, my god, she's beautiful.

And Mom was like, no, she's not.

And I don't like it.

And I'll listening to this too, actually, and I was like, yeah, she is, and Mama, well you can have.

Joe's parents immigrated to Australia from Italy four years prior.

I knew it in.

He said, Germany.

In nineteen seventy five, Nino and Maria welcomed their second boy, Anthony.

With two boys, the house was bustling, often described as chaotic.

It's my worst night, toys and games all over the floor like digs.

I was living with digs.

But Nino and Maria loved everything about it.

They were happy to have their two boys.

They lived in a red brick house in Newcastle.

Newcastle is a harbor city in the Australian state of New South Wales.

It's located one hundred and sixty two kilometers or one hundred and one miles from Sydney.

Joe's mum was a housewife and his father worked as a tradesman.

Joe saw that his dad.

Joe saw what his dad had done for a living, and he ended up working at the same company that he and his grandfather and his father had all worked out.

Oh my god, before they knew it.

Joe and Anthony were young men, growing up all too soon from Marea's liking, but they would all have family dinners every single night because they all stayed close by.

Joe was a gifted athlete, playing tennis and soccer.

There were trophies littered all around the family home.

He also radiated confidence and energy.

He was a great student and a fantastic friend, often the one to bury the hatchet in any quarrel and find a way to move on.

So two friends were kind of finding he'd be the one to go to.

He was extremely well liked by everyone who met him.

You just couldn't help but be drawn to him.

He wanted to study architecture, but also didn't want a career that would keep him inside all day, strapped to the desk, so instead he decided to take up a career in civil engineering.

Wow.

In nineteen ninety four, at just twenty four years old, he graduated university.

His parents had bought him a ticket overseas as a gift for graduating.

Oh nice marine.

He really wanted to go traveling before starting his working life, and at the time broke it off with his girlfriend, Rebecca, who everyone kind of thought he'd end up with.

Oh god, that's not very nice.

Like see, I want to go.

Yeah, I know, I don't know if you said it like that, but that's probably dead.

After Joe died, Rebecca turned up to the family home and told Maria that she just wished Joe had loved her like she had loved him.

I was so heartbreaking.

She bought flowers and told her that.

Oh my god.

When he got back, he found a job at a civil engineering company as a project manager, which was close to his family in Newcastle.

I want to get sorry.

I wanted to look at what Joe looks like.

I'd like to have a visual of him.

Yeah, of course, I actually know what a new thing looks like.

But isn't that terrible?

I know what she looks like, and I've actually got in my notes the name a new sin for an episode to do.

Oh really, not Joe's.

Isn't that terrible?

We always talk about how you know that shouldn't be the case.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maria, Joe's mother said in Helen Ganner's book that Joe's father and grandfather worked at the same engineering company.

Like I said before, so it's a big over you know, International Corporation.

Oh yes, yeah, I'm looking at him.

H yeah.

They look very I mean, this is such a boring basic thing to say.

They look like a couple in the nineties.

Yeah, like in a kind of mid to late twenties, a.

Good looking couple.

Yeah, very good.

Okay, Yeah, he looks quite American.

He does, doesn't he.

He's very like chiseled jaw a bit like.

Like Italian American.

Doesn't mean like he's got a very Italian kind of face.

If he didn't have enough to do, like you know, all week, he'd find he'd find himself really restless.

Maria kind of noticed this with him from a young age.

He would hang out with friends, go to the pub, or put in extra hours at work with his friends.

He would regularly hang out at a local pub called the Brewery.

That's when he met twenty two year old a new Thing on two only twenty two at the time.

Yeah.

Anu was born in India on September third, nineteen seventy two.

Her parents relocated to Newcastle when she was really young.

Both of her parents were doctors and push their children to do well in their studies.

And you had completed her schooling and got a HSC.

Did I say that right?

Yeah?

But HS and HSC to go into economics and law at ANU, which is the Australian National University in Canberra.

She also called the Act Act Act the.

Act of going to University a little bit of trivia for our international listeners because I would has it.

I guess most people outside of Australia don't know this.

Canberra is actually our capital city, not Sydney.

Yeah, and that it was because the two were fighting it out, won't they.

Melbourne and Sydney were fighting it out as we always do, even two hundred years ago we were, And so they just picked a They just made a city in the middle.

And you know what's it is a lovely place, Canberra.

I quite like Canberra, but there is nothing around it.

No, it's yeah, it's in them.

It's it's in the middle, just.

A city that they was not even in the middle.

It's closer to Sydney.

But that's a very Melbourne person being of me.

To say they got it close up.

Yeah, So she moved down there and started her degree.

So that a New moved to Canberra and started her degree in the early nineties, but didn't cope living away from home.

She called her mother a lot and would go back home frequently.

And it was extremely attractive, high achieving, and very well spoken.

She had a focus on going to the gym and was an obsessive dieter.

Her parents ended up moving to Sydney and lived and worked there, and You graduated in economics and her plan was to go back and finish her law degree.

Wow.

When Anew and Joe met at the brewery, they immediately hit it off.

Anew was back home for a short period of time, their two friendship groups happened to know each other and they got chatting.

Anew had a boyfriend at the time who she lived with in Canberra.

Wow.

His name was Simon Walsh.

One report stated that he found out about the fling and ended it.

Another stated that the more time Joe and a New spent together, the less she could see Simon and it eventually fizzled out.

So I don't really know which one is true.

There it seemed like yeah, he found out about it big blow up, or that they stayed together for a while and adventually there.

It sounds like there was some kind of crossover with some sort of crossover meeting Joe was the reason she Diamon ended.

Yep.

Yet whatever the timeline was.

That's right.

Yeah, but a New was really heartbroken by the breakup with Simon.

Senior parole Officer Naomi Buick had spent hours interviewing a New and said that she had terminated a pregnancy while with Simon, which had a lasting and traumatic effect on her.

Oh sad.

She was particularly hurt by a claim he made calling her intellectually inferior.

Oh ye, which which is what she said about others.

So it really hit her heart, she said about everybody.

Yeah, it had a really big impact on her.

It was a huge turning point in her behavior.

So she's allogical, other people intellectually inferior.

But if someone calls her that, yeah she was crazy.

Yeah, okay, dish it out, but you can't take.

Care not me and that crowd.

I didn't growl and I didn't cut that out of the podcast.

By late nineteen ninety five, she developed bolimia.

She spiraled into a deep depression and move back in with her parents.

She wanted liposunction and refused to admit that she was suffering.

She had a diet of Coca cola, tim tams and she would smoke.

She also dabbled in drugs.

So she actually I think that her dad actually went through with the liposuction, which there was no shed went through with it.

Oh sorry, So I actually paid for her to have liposuctions.

So she was really kind of the way that she spoke to people.

She kind of seemed like she could kind of get her way with anything that she said, and there was nothing to her.

She was the skinniest person and actually had liposunction.

Oh, I just looked up.

The photo is a understand that.

Joe had been in an awful car accident with his family at the age of just eight years old.

His mother, Maria, had a debilitating foot injury, and so Joe acted as caretaker during this time.

He was soon to become a caretaker once again to a new They would talk on the phone dozens of times per day, dozens dozens, so when he was in Newcastle and she was in Canberra, a call about fifteen times a day.

Well, that's toxic.

Joe was now by her side.

In her condition, it did not show signs of improvements.

One of the things that I was often commented that Anew would say that she was really sick, she had something, and Joe would have to continually go back to Camber to look after her.

I've known a couple like that.

Yeah, it's really yeah, Well I didn't end in murder, my lord, No I didn't.

But no, what did you look at me and the iron growl?

No?

I cut that out of a podcast too.

Joe had fallen head over heels for a new and it was a strikingly beautiful person.

Like I mentioned before, a new and Joe would talk for hours and hours at a time.

By nineteen ninety six, they were dating exclusively.

Nice.

Nice.

They spent It's like I looked at you like.

A caused and he looked at me.

Nice.

You never't been talking about that exclusively?

Ready?

One?

Two three?

Nice.

They spent most of their free time together and from the outside looked like a very happy couple.

Joe's family sat down for dinner with Anew to finally meet her.

They wanted to know kind of who this person was that their son was spending all this time with Joe's parents believed she was intelligent, but thought that something was a bit off about her.

Oh.

She brought up a lot of odd topics, talking a lot about the afterlife, and also spoke about a previous relationship in great detail, saying there was almost a little incestuous.

It was very strange, but her parents passed it off as someone who liked to shock people with different out their ideas.

Hang on, I'm going to need to ask more about the ancestuous comment.

There was a relationship with his family was incestuous.

There was nothing more about it.

But she described their sex life in ing detail, I think, kind of saying that he was like a brother to her.

It was like Joe didn't say anything at the time and continued eating, so she just kind of spoke about all of this in great detail.

Kind of insinuating he is used to it, she speaks like that all the time.

Or maybe he felt uncomfortable so just didn't get involved in the conversation.

Yeah, well, it is kind of alleged that he felt uncomfortable and that she was quite controlling.

She did all the talking.

There's nothing wrong with that, Sammy way looking in the iron growling and growl for Joe's friends, Anu was confident and domineering.

It was pushing Joe into the background.

He was becoming less sociable and let Anew take the lead in every single conversation.

It didn't help when the Chinquas found out that Anew was keeping their relationship a secret from her parents.

They wanted her to prioritize her studies over boys.

Joe instructed his parents to say if they ever met, the Sings to say that he was just a friend of a news brother, which is.

Interesting because why would they meet if it weren't because they were dating.

Well, I don't know.

In case they just dropped in Canberra.

Maybe I don't know that because I was living together.

They ended up living together.

You know, I think I reckon the only partner I don't know, the only like parents of a partner My parents ever met was like at you know, maybe a twenty first birthday party, Like until I was living my parents would crushing.

Yes, yes they weren't invited and made them but didn't invite them.

So the fact that that you know, she didn't want to say anything about Joe to any way they were living together.

Yeah.

It made Joe's parents feel a little bit off.

They didn't like that, and Neew wasn't telling anyone about Joe and making him seem really small.

They noticed that Joe wasn't quite himself and would now fade away in the background anytime Joe, anytime I knew was around, and New would interrupt every time they tried to talk with Joe.

One time when Nino the dand was trying to have a private conversation with Joe, and You walked up behind Joe, hugged him, kissed him, and pulled him away.

He seemed to the family that Anew was always there to snatch Joe away.

Right, There's not a lot I hate more than that level of yuck jealousy.

Yeah, I mean murder.

I do hate you.

Yeah.

First um, in no particular order.

Asual, their nightly dinner was often interrupted by a new and New eventually went back to Canberra.

So this is this is you know, the timeline here is that she kept coming back to Newcastle at different points.

She come back for a summer period or any holiday.

She'd come back she wanted to be with her mum, and then she eventually went back to Canberra, four hundred and fifty kilometers south, which meant that Joe and her couldn't see each other as.

Often didn't realize it was that far.

It's a really long way from Yeah.

Yeah.

He would drive five and a half hours to see her on a Friday and return early Monday morning to start work hardly sleeping.

Oh my god, that's a good boy friend.

Very good boyfriend, very good boyfriend.

A new called Joe every night, often during the family meal, sometimes after.

He would go and talk to her every time she called.

No, sorry, rude, if you're having dinner with your family to take the call.

Later, Maria thought.

Marie would often take the phone off him and tell a knew to let him eat his meal.

I am like Maria, Maria's great because it's from my said story Marie.

I just met a girl named Maria.

That's beautiful.

Because of all the calls, their phone bill skyrocketed.

The calls were excessive, not to mention the expense.

Joe was spending every weekend to spend time with her back in Canberra, and Niel often complained about being sick, which crippled her.

From time to time.

He would drop everything when she complained about being sick.

Maria worried that Joe was exhausting himself and finding it hard to juggle everything with all the other things had going on in his life.

Maria tried to warn Joe not to let Anew control him, but he said, don't make me choose.

I love you, but she needs me.

Oh that broke Maria's heart.

That breaks my heart.

I am Maria, You're Maria.

In September nineteen ninety six, Joe finally decided that he was going to move in to be with a new He was going to move to Canberra.

They moved into a semi detached townhouse together and even opened up a joint bank account called ANEW and Joe's marriage account whoa as while Anew was studying, Joe was going to have to be the financial provider.

Their house was in a bustling part of town near the university, in a place called Downer.

In huge Downer, it sounds like a real upper of a town.

Hey, you should you should?

You should say that there?

I think I did nobe, you should say it there?

Ok?

In Newcastle.

At the end of the semester, the couple spent three weeks with Joe's family in Newcastle, but Maria did not like her.

She continued to feel that there was something very strange about her.

I mean, I'm going to play devil's advocatire and he's giving a little bit of Italian mother loving her son and not wanting another woman to take her away as well as Yeah, New sounds a bit alarm a lot for a couple in the early twenties.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Once back in Canberra, things took a downward spiral?

Was it a bit of a downer?

Nice one again?

You did it again?

Thank you?

Yes, it was okay.

A New continued to be hyper fixated on her weight, excessively, going to the gym and watching what she was eating.

Well, that's sad, it's that's a she's got a mental disorder.

Yeah, absolutely yeah.

She was suffering from bolimia and like I said before, her parents she she kind of asked her parents time and time again for liposuction.

Her dad allegedly gave in and helped in nineteen ninety seven, and Knew was complaining about chronic fatigue and muscle aches.

Her health was her obsession and Knew constantly had something wrong with her, that she was fixated on but it was all psychological.

She approached Maria to speak about her car accident and how she dealt with the problem she faced with her foot.

She noticed that Anew was really fidgety that time and thought that perhaps she was having some kind of drug withdrawal.

Robert, the Chinque's godson was really concerned about Joe during his visits to Canberra.

He watched the spark disappear from Joe's eyes.

By mid nineteen ninety seven, Anneu was convinced that she had contracted AIDS, which made her focus more and more on her health.

Oh God, so she always had a new fixation of how sick she was and thought it was always something happening.

Is that like a bit of insinuation, maybe some Monchausen syndrome?

Yes, yeah, they could be that.

But also you know that there is some kind of drug effect there.

As well, and medical anxiety.

Absolutely yeah, as she believed her body was shutting down.

God, she was furious with Joe that didn't seem to care enough about her many ailments.

When the results came back negative about the AIDS, she continued on various other diagnosises, diagnosesses, diagnosis, diagnosis.

Her parents attempted to have her admitted to a psychiatric facility, but she wasn't seen as a threat to herself or others and could not be admitted against her will.

And this is this is what happens.

You know, once you're over eighteen here in Australia, you cannot be admitted anywhere.

Against will unless you're deemed.

Unless you're deemed unfit.

Yeah, you can't make choices for yourself.

And who was taking ipp acac for a period of time.

She said that Joe would point I'm going to explain that.

Don't you worry about how Aha?

She said that Joe had pointed out out this drug to her.

Now it has been said that perhaps Joan mentioned the drug at a dinner party in passing as it's what supermodels take to keep weight off.

Oh, this is a definition I found of the drug.

Syrup of Ippacac, or simply ippocac, is a drug that was once widely used as an ex expertrrent acceptaurrent ecce and a rapid acting emetic.

It is obtained from the dried rhizome and roots of the epicaquana plant, from which it derives its name.

It is no longer regularly used in medicine.

So it like an appetite of presidtism.

Yeah yeah, and kind of like a weight loss thing.

So a lot of supermodels did it to keep the weight off, you know, And the big thing here was that, and it was like, oh, we mentioned it as a suggestion for me, But it later went on to say that he probably just mentioned it at one time and she thought, I'll use that.

And Neil had been taking a lot of drugs for recreational use at the time.

Drugs were really big at the time at ANU and Canberra in general.

She would take ecstasy with her previous boyfriend Simon.

She would stop when she went home to her parents and would often have withdrawals at the time.

Oh dear, her parents are both doctors as well, so they've kind of would have seen what was happening.

At the time, Anew had some building resentment, stating that Joe didn't do anything around the house and that she felt that she was a housewife.

She made another complaint to the university counselor, saying that Joe had hit her, yelled at her, and abused her.

He had blamed her for hitting her, and that she couldn't leave him because he was financially supporting her.

This took place a few months before Joe's death.

Do we know that was allegations?

Oh yeah, yeah, since come out and it was sentenced that she made that up?

Is in she admitted to making it up or other people up said she.

Made it up.

Yeah, she told the counselor and that she was building a case.

Yeah.

Oh Jesus, okay, I was going to have a believe women moment if other people had said, no, actually made that up?

Yeah, no, no, no, it was definitely yeah, something that she made up and knew then believed that she had a degenerative muscle wasting disease that was fatal and believed that she only had a few months to live.

Does that a bit Munchausen, doesn't It does if she's really believing she's got all these things that are wrong.

Oh dear, is it?

Or is it?

Yeah?

Munchausen by proxy is when a parent or someone else but Munchausen.

Is well, I don't like a hypercontract.

Yeah yeah, maybe it's just that, To be fair, I think Munchausen is more you kind of believe you've got illness and that actually wheels.

It on, right.

I think I'm wrong, dear listeners, But yeah, maybe it's just HYPOCHONDI Yeah, yeah, like she just kind of felt like she had everything.

She didn't tell her parents what it was exactly, just that she was sick.

Her parents continued to encourage her to go to the doctor time and time again.

She told her friends, but her friends kind of thought that it was a tall tale.

So she was known for exaggerate exactly.

Okay, she's got something else again, now.

Something else again.

Yeah, it was a figment of her imagination, but it was like she believed it.

She started giving away her CDs and clothes.

She showered up to seven times a day.

Oh god, she's really obsessive, really obsessive.

She believed that she got the disease from taking ippocac and blamed Joe for that.

Oh dear.

She actually told some people that she was going to kill Joe.

Okay, she also told several people that she was going to kill herself, and new made several attempts to get a gun.

She went, god, yeah, so she wanted to kill herself with a gun.

That didn't happen, and so then she decided she'll go to different dealers to get heroin and have a lethal overdose of heroin.

Someone told her that that's actually a pain free way to.

Do it, and she had never like she wasn't a heroin user.

No, well, yeah, no, I don't think so.

I think that was the first time she did heroin.

I mean, yeah, other drugs, but not so.

It was kind of like, I've never done heroin, so it would be quite easy to overdose on that.

Maybe it was the thought she had.

Well, someone told her that that's how you can kill yourself.

Yeah, so saying that if you actually had a lethal dose, it would be the best way to go be pain free.

God and Knew would allegedly talk about it, how much smarter she was than Joe and constantly put him down in front of everyone.

Again, because you felt so good when your ex boyfriend did that to you.

Let's go and do it to your co.

Let's never think about that.

She does far worse, but let's ever think about that as well.

Joe was getting sick of the relationship and wanted an out.

He was starting to make plans to break it off.

He had purchased a new car, which was the first part of his exit plan.

And the first time you could see the joy back in his eyes.

Many have since stated that a new knew.

Who knew?

That's a hard one there, Sorry, everyone knew that he was going to leave.

In fact, in his diary he had a note that he was going to pack up and leave.

On the Monday, Joe's mother, Maria, had noticed that most of his things were gone in the house, like he had already been packing up and trying to leave.

And Who spoke quite openly.

Sorry, I'm so sorry.

He was just crawling along the ground, but with his leg both his front and back legs stretched out as far as he could possibly do, Like that's kind of.

Cool, say no comment.

And wh spoke quite openly about killing herself and a suicide packed between her and Joe.

She would speak quite openly about it, but no one ever paid attention.

So, I'm so sorry, I'm laughing, He digs, and I'll stop looking at him, obviously not laughing about this story.

I'm so sorry, bless you more so.

Yeah, she spoke openly about wanting to take her own life with a suicide pact with Joe.

She would speak quite openly about it, but no one paid any attention.

To her anymore.

Oh god, it sounds like a proper boy who cried wolf at this.

Point, absolutely, and who was diagnosed with a personality disorder and depression.

But a lot of people around her said that she was just being dramatic and often lied about what was going on.

Oh God, and what she was going to do at that point as well.

Yeah.

In nineteen ninety seven, a new told a friend that she hated Joe and wanted to go on a rampage and kill Joe, her ex boyfriend Simon, and all of the doctors that had misdiagnosed her and did not take her seriously.

She said, I studied psychiatric texts and it wouldn't be too hard to convince someone you're insane.

Oh, oh god, I'm sorry.

Like I'm flicking between oh no, the poor thing and oh yeah.

She visited the library with her close friend and fellow student, martav Row.

Great name, great name.

A little bit about MARTYVI.

Martive was an only child until the birth of a much younger sibling who was disabled.

The family's hopes then focused on Martive and all pressure that seemed to be placed on her.

She was a great tennis player growing up and a good student, although she didn't get high enough a high enough score after high school to get into medicine, so decided she'd do law instead.

Imagine a law I guess I'll just do law.

Her father was a well respected teacher and her mother a doctor.

They both retired by the time that Martivi was at in university, but by the time the trial began they both had to start working again to pay for her legal fees and a defense.

In the family home there was strictly no smoking and no drinking.

Is it's a friend of our news, he's a friend of a nurse?

Yep.

Martivi was the quieter, more studious of her in Anu, and she followed her blindly.

It was since been kind of stated that she was a bit of a doormat and was constantly walked on by stronger people.

So Anu and Martave sourced a book about the individual's right to die.

It contained information about assisted suicide and legislation.

They photocopied several pages of this book.

During this time, her parents tried to have her committed to a psychiatric facility again without her consent.

This time this had to go through a magistrate, and before this long long approval process.

Joe Chinque would be dead.

Oh shit.

Her parents tried to have her committed to a psychiatric facility again without her consent.

This time this had to go through a magistrate.

And before this long long approval process, Joe chinkwe would be dead, oh shit?

And who told several people that Joe and her would be overdosing together in a suicide pact.

She and Joe, sorry, sorry, sorry that she and Joe would be overdosing in a suicide pact.

But Joe had no idea about this.

But that's not a suicide packed then suicide.

She was telling people to get them on kind of so that they would not raise aus ficion with Joe, which is just sorry.

So she was saying, it's a suicide pact, so don't say anything.

Don't say anything, Okay, far out.

So it's obviously not a suicide pact, but that's what she was telling us.

She told other people that she was going to drug him so that he was not aware that she was killing herself.

So an another part of what she was saying was I'm going to kill myself with Joe would get too upset, So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drug him with row hipnole in his coffee.

He's nightly coffee.

He's one of tho people that has coffee.

Weirdo.

I don't understand.

No, no, no, no Italian Italian.

It's Italian, not a weirdo Italian.

Sometimes they're confused.

A new purchased another graham of heroin.

Hang on, could we just go back to the I'll drug him because they'll get too upset.

So it would be much better if he wakes up from a drugged stupor not knowing why he passed out and found his girlfriend dead.

Yeah, that's maybe worse.

It's a perfect plan.

I don't I don't really, I don't really understand.

I think she was I don't think she's thinking clearly of this, And I think that this was part of her plan that she thought and Martivey was going along.

For the ride, like willingly sorry, not willingly knowingly or was she just kind of thinking, my friend's just kind of talk and smoke again.

There's a bit of that.

There's a bit of who knows, there's a bit of who knows your honor, who her magistrate?

And magistrate?

You can I can I raise this.

I don't know.

I think in this it was she kind of always thought that a New was talking smack.

She she said this several times before.

However, she did continually tell people throughout all of this that it.

Told people that this is what I knew was saying, that's what I was doing.

Okay.

A New purchased a graham of heroin.

The dealer asked why she needed so much, and she said, someone's coming with me.

The dealer asked if a New intended to end her own life, and she said that she did, but she would never reveal who the other person was.

And the dealer still sold it to her.

A dealer is or what's going to sell it?

Okay, Yeah, that's a good point.

There is.

I don't think with a dealer there is anything.

Deal was like, I just wanted to have a good time and that's all I care about.

House is for?

Who's that for?

Good point?

Good point?

Good point?

Good Now what we are going to go is the first part of this horrible, horrible, horrible event titled the First Dinner Party.

Oh October Sunday, Okay, in the weirdest way.

October Sunday, nineteenth, Joe visited his parents.

In Newcastle Sunday, October nineteen.

Easier Sunday, October nineteen, beautiful Joe, I'll do it one more time.

No.

Sunday, October nineteenth, Joe visited his parents in Newcastle.

He told his mum that he and anew were hosting a dinner party the following evening back in Canberra.

He wanted to know if his mum had any meals prepared that he could serve his guests.

So what a young Isewan boy?

If such?

Did I tell you?

Bo?

I love that Mama.

Please please to Newcastle, sorry not to Sydney, So.

Take your home cooked meals four hundred and something.

So he wanted to know if she had any pre prepared meals so she could serve all of his guests for a dinner party.

Don't feel like she would have?

Well, Maria offered to cook something.

Yeahad he'd pick up some fried chicken on the way home dinner party if she was getting fried And.

It's not comparable to Maria's beautiful Italian food.

No beautiful food, Maria, I'll have your Italian food plan.

Well.

The beautiful thing about this story, and there is only kind of one, is that Helen Ghana got to spend quite a lot of time with Maria and Maria would always cook for her over Maria, Maria is Beautiful.

October twentieth, nineteen ninety seven.

Dinner party Monday was set to be held and everyone showed up fully aware of a new's a new a news mental state.

Martivi turned up with one of her friends, Olivia, who had not met Joe or anew before.

Sorry when you're aware of her mental state, meaning that she wasn't in a good place at your time, or knowing what her plans were both What, No, I don't believe that.

I can't believe that.

Yeah, so they've come to a dinner party knowing.

Martav has told everybody exactly why they're going along.

We're going to this dinner party tonight, awards and a Nu is going to drug her boyfriend with rehypnot.

No, not that there's going to be suicide packed after.

What the fuck?

Why would you go to that dinner party?

Well, this is the thing everyone went.

It was a more curiosity.

No.

Before the dinner, Martav showed her a needle mark in her skin, explaining that Aniu had been practicing injecting on her to practice for her suicide.

She explained to Olivia that the dinner was a final dinner before Aneu and Joe's joined packed and.

Olivia is a random friend who came with MARTIVI that who didn't know the others.

That's right, No, sorry, he was actually visiting from out of town.

I think it was that friend there, Sammy.

If you invited me to a dinner party with a friend and they're like on the way, you were like, oh, by the way, the friends are going to kill themselves afterwards, what would you say, I won't come, thank you very much?

Will you jump out of the card?

Stop dropping roll?

I'd stopped up and roll, and then I would get your mum to make me dinner, me and my whole family.

You know what.

Nothing against my mother, but I don't think it'd be a beautiful meal, like Maria's cooking.

Better than mine.

Anu told Olivia and Martavi that she had prepared too much food, and that they had that they should go and knock on the doors of nearby people and get them to come.

It's going on.

This is the weirdest store I've ever heard.

Rumors had spread.

By that point of the news, intentions for that night, spurring other students, some of which were total strangers, to attend in some kind of morbid curiosity.

What are you talking about, Sammy?

This is why this case is so bizarre.

And through Helen Ganna's book, she says, why did these people not do more?

Joe Chinque was dead.

That's what she kind of repeats throughout the book, and it's.

Very powerful love the power of that.

It's the effect that I need the answer.

I don't just want no question.

Giving lawyers and a lot of them have since spoken out about it.

Some of them have not what what that.

They all wanted to go and see why the people invited all new of a news plans to take her and Joe's life.

They all believed it was some kind of fairwell party.

Now the only person that didn't know again was Joe chinquay yucky.

I hate this, and.

New made it clear to everyone invited that Joe was in on the pact.

They appeared really loving towards each other all night, which made a lot of people who intended to believe it was all now a harmless joke.

So they went along and then they went, oh, okay, maybe it's a joke.

All a lot.

I feel like, I mean, as I've just very obviously said, I wouldn't go anyway, but I feel like if they were seeing me really lovey and nice, that would almost make me believe it more, because you often hear the people who have decided they're going to take their own lives are quite happy and at peace and COMFORTA last days well because.

He didn't know what was going on, but you know, but maybe they could eat both of them.

They're both happy.

But the guests thought he did know.

Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I don't know.

I think I would go, oh, yeah, they've decided to do this, and then oh god, yeah, I wouldn't do that again.

I wouldn't be there.

Martave drove quite a few of the guests home, telling them that the suicide was going ahead.

Later that night, a few of the people asked if they should seek medical assistance, but Martive told them not to a few of the people thought that it was a news choice if she really wanted to do that, and it wasn't their place to get involved or intervene.

Ah, yes, it was, it's well.

That night, a new crushed sedatives into Joe's drink so that he would drift off.

She then fetched a pre prepared ringe, but she struggled to find the right vein.

Joe got up in the morning and went to work, seemingly unaware of what had happened.

Oh by God.

Akneu called MARTIVI and told her what happened.

Martive was doing work experience at the Community and Health Services Complaints Commission.

Ironic, she told two colleagues that something really serious had happened the night before and was paranoid the police were going to come after Tell the.

Police, Tell the police.

She told me to tell your colleagues, tell the police.

It was the major crime of the century.

Ah and it had to do with revenge.

Ha ha and New asked one of her heroin dealer friends to source her some row hipnol.

The friend had no problem getting it.

She got fifteen tablets.

When paired with heroin, only one tablet was necessary.

Jesus so that the heroin had actually congealed and she couldn't get it to work.

It had been too long in the syringe and she couldn't get the heroin.

She couldn't actually get it to inject.

So Joe was knocked out after having in his morning coffee, woke up the next morning and went, oh, we probably felt a bit groggy and as when he had no idea that it happened.

A few days later, the same guests was surprised to receive another invitation, all of them all the same guests yep, for I don't know if it's all the same guests, but a lot of the same people for Friday, October twenty.

Fourth, Oh my god, same week the.

Second dinner party.

Yep, Monday was the first one.

And then I hate this story.

Despite the unsettling knowledge of their plans, they went along.

The guests were told again that she was planning to take her and Joe's lives.

Joe returned home to see a full house of people.

He was surprised.

He didn't know about the second dinner party, but went along with it.

He was gracious and a sociable host.

Oh my god, if I came home and there was a house full of people eating cracked and.

That fried chicken again.

He was talking excitedly about his new car and his upcoming holiday to Queensland.

Martivy told her friend Olivia that the plan was going ahead for real this time, but Olivia dismissed her, saying, people who are going to do this sort of thing don't just talk about it.

They go ahead and do.

It, or they're only talking about it.

Yeah again, I suppose that.

I feel like that's what I.

Would say happened once before the year.

Oh okay, yeah, yeah.

I think it's lot of one.

Of her things that she just talks about.

And she did this, and she Martavey was certain that there was nothing she could do to stop it.

Another guest thought it couldn't be true, and others thought it was another one of a news tall tales.

The couple interacted exactly the same that night.

They were both happy and bubbly.

Which is interesting when we've just said that Joe had been planning to break up with her.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe he was acting for his friends.

I don't know.

Maybe, I don't know, who knows.

The party continued into the early hours without incident.

After a while, people started heading home.

At six am the following morning, Martivi arrived home and told one of her friends that anew had put ten rote hypnal tablets into Joe's coffee and tried to inject him with a lethal dose of heroin.

Was Martaby saying this because she was there or because that's what Anu said she was going to do.

She was apparently there at the time because left after she did that.

Oh shit, yeah, that's accessory.

Yes, it didn't work.

It's amazing.

It wasn't his time to go.

Marvy said that.

Yeah.

When the friend asked why Anu was trying to hurt Joe, Martavi said, Joe's the problem.

She wants to take Joe with her.

It's because she blames him for her condition.

Oh no.

Martavy decided at that point that she wasn't going to be involved in any further plan, so her friend kind of talked her out of it and said, what are you doing?

Hang on?

Sorry, after being there to witness someone give someone.

Tenro hipnos, yeah, tenor hypnos and then heroins.

Yeah, well didn't see the heroin but.

Okay, and said, you know what, I've let my friend taught me out of doing that ever again.

I'm not gonna do it anymore.

I don't like Martiby.

As the day continued, word of a news plan spread.

One friend threatened to contact the police, but a new found out about this and talk to the friend out of it.

Hang on sirs, Joe, do we know what Joe's condition is at this point?

Okay?

And New told the friend that she would do nothing to hurt Joe.

And who told this person that they were going to be engaged?

Why would she hurt him?

What?

A New admitted to these concerned people that she had given Joe the sedatives, but she had only done it so that he would be a s when she tried to end her own life.

She convinced them that Joe was not in any danger and she would confess to him about spiking his drink.

Everyone decided to let this go.

Oh wow, so the news at that point had only spread of the temper hypnoal tablets.

But I'm sure at that point it was I'm sure at that point though it wasn't ten like I'm sure.

People, Oh she drugged him to put him say exactly.

At ten nineteen that evening, Anu called her friend Len, who was fully aware of the sinister plans, but expressed his opinion to others that it was just a New being dramatic and a desperate cry for attention.

Ten pm the following night, Saturday night.

Neil asked how strong ra hypnol was.

She said, that Joe had been asleep for a really long time, about fifteen hours, and was now groggy and couldn't keep his eyes open.

She was worried about what she had done, but Len told her that she wouldn't have caused any long term damage.

Joe took the phone and said, hey, mate, my mind is one hundred percent functional.

Joe said that apparently, yet my body just wants to sleep like crazy.

That's all.

She's worried for nothing.

Now.

I'm very confused about that, apparently, he I don't know if she ever told him that she had given him that much for hypnol, but it seems like she did confess that to him, told him that on the phone, I gave you a hypnole.

Blah blah blah blah.

That's why you can't stay awake.

That's right, I think she had told him at that point.

After midnight, Anew called another friend, asking if it was impossible, if it was possible to inject heroin into your legs or the backs of your arm.

The next morning, Sunday, October twenty sixth, nineteen ninety seven, a new visited Martavi and told her that Joe wasn't breathing and she needed money to get some heroin to take her own life.

Martave drove her to an EIGHTE and withdrew two hundred and fifty dollars cash.

Sorry, get alone, I'm so sorry, Marty By Martive can get.

Fucked, yeash and get fucked.

At nine am, a new purchased half a gram of heroin.

She was anxious and kept saying today's the day.

Anu continually called Martive that day.

Martyve told Anu to leave her alone, but eventually caved after Anu was extremely persistent.

Martive went to pick her up.

So she was like, leave me alone, Go kill yourself in peace.

Yeah, fuck this girl.

They both had a heated argument.

While Anu appeared to be very distressed.

Martivi went to speak to Len and told him that after Joe awoke the night before, he told Anew that he was going to leave her.

Martivi then explained that a new tried to kill Joe with heroin.

Len had been convinced it was all a tall tale up until this point.

He suggested calling a news parents to tell them in case.

Anew later claimed that Joe had injected himself.

Lenn and Martivey went for a drive just in case anew tried to involve them further.

During that drive, Martivi told Lenn that she had actually been to their house earlier that day and had witnessed Joe unconscious on their bed.

She'd seen that, She's seen.

That, and she went to the house, saw him unconscious, not moving, and left.

And then was like, I don't want to help anymore.

I don't know anymore.

Took her to get cash now to him and all that.

Car to keep the car.

His skin was pale, his lips were blue, but he was still breathing, and decided to leave anywhere.

This is the person who wanted to study medicine.

That's right, right, a new phone, the friend who had supplied the Rowe hypnole.

She was advised to call an ambulance, but I knew, said that she couldn't because Joe didn't know and he would be furious.

She said that Joe didn't know what didn't know, that that she had given him the hypno.

That if don't call the ambulance for Joe, because he'll be mad at me for giving him a hypno.

That's right?

Is this story?

She said that Joe was taking one breath every ten seconds.

The friend said that she needed to do mouth to mouth resuscitation.

Joe began vomiting black liquid.

The friend told her time and time again to hang up and call an ambulance, but a news said it was all too late.

The friend then told a new that if she didn't call the ambulance then she might have a murder change to deal with.

At this point, a new disconnected the call.

At twelve ten PMS.

Is on the Sunday, a new called emergency services.

So we're bordering on twenty four hours from when she first gave him a hypno.

Hypno, not the heroine, but yeah, the rapnoeah louck it hell and just watched him.

Was absolutely hysterical on the phone, which we spoke about at the start.

She continually changed the address or kind of justs gave a fake address.

When asked for her name, she said her name was Olivia.

The dispatcher told her to provide mouth to mouth resuscitation, but she couldn't because he was coughing up so much blood and his teeth were cleanched shut.

When paramedics are coughing up blood, I don't know, I don't know.

This is this is what's bullshit from I know.

When paramedics arrived, a new waved them down.

Joe was lying diagonally across the bed, naked from the waist down.

He could not be resuscitated, and knew begged them to keep trying, throwing herself onto his body.

It wasn't supposed to happen this way, she said.

We were supposed to go together.

Oh God.

When police arrived, they had to physically remove anew from the bedroom.

She explained that she had given Joe four or hypnoal tablets and then injected him.

She was taken into custody.

She said that to police straight away, straight away, that's interesting.

On the twenty sixth of October, Joe's mother, Maria was on the edge.

Joe called her always to check in every Sunday, but this time he hadn't.

When Joe still hadn't called, Maria called Joe, but was met with the police officers.

Oh god, God, blood ran cold.

At the same time, there was an officer knocking on her door.

The police told Maria and Nino that they were there about Joe.

Maria begged them not to tell her anything more.

She knew that Joe was gone, but she did not want to hear it.

Family and friends traveled to the margue to identify Joe.

Robert, the Chinkway's godson, could hardly believe it.

He had seen Joe smiling like he used to when he spoke about his car.

Police explained that foul play was suspected and anew had been taken into custody.

Toxicology are showed high levels of heroin and roe hypnol.

It was so ro hypnol itself is ten times stronger than vallium.

Oh wow.

So yeah, it's probably a stupid question.

I'm sure the answer is for sedation.

But what is very hypno used for except drugging someone unwittingly?

I don't know.

It is a very strong sedative, I don't.

I don't think we have it here.

Yeah, anymore if you only hear about it used as it like for exactly so strong drugging people in nightclubs and exactly and it's you know, ten times stronger than valium just one.

So yeah, that's what I mean.

I almost feel like I don't know why it exists, which is I understand it's an ignorant comment, but it just feels like, why can people get it?

At all.

Yeah, it must be used if you have a prescription for it must be used for something.

But I don't really know, Like there.

Was it fentanyl that Michael Jackson, Yeah, yeah, maybe that kind of thing.

Maybe that.

Yeah, So it didn't take too long for Martiv row, a New's best friend to be brought in for questioning.

Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had been planned for months.

Detectives soon learned that Joe's murder had been planned for months and Knew had studied suicide methods extensively and how to inject someone with heroin.

Then it's not suicide if it's injecting someone else.

Yeah, Anew needed to rely on her friend, Martivi, who had rehypnol, who had connections on how to obtain it.

So yeah, Martiv's friend who actually had the hypnoal and how to obtain it.

At both dinner parties, a New laced Joe's coffee with a sedative.

So first it was it was another sedative, and then the second time it was hypnoal.

The first attempt to inject him with the heroin didn't work, it had congealed inside of the syringe.

On the second evening, a new managed to inject a fatal amount of heroin in his bloodstream while he lay paralyzed and unable to save himself.

Martive was taken to the station and was also charged for the murder of Joe Chinque.

Martavi said, I tried at every stage to intercede.

Three days later, her parents secured her one hundred thousand dollars bail, which she had to remain under supervision.

Most disturbing of all, ANWSE sat and watched as Joe suffered in pain for a very very long time.

It was only when his lips started turning blue and started coughing blood, and people repeatedly taught her to call paramedics that a new called an acquaintance and told her that there had been an overdose.

Called an acquaintance, well called her.

I remember she called the friend and said, oh what I do?

Pressure second was eaten up with the wild goose chase.

She put the paramedics through, giving incorrect information and even referring to herself as Olivia on the phone.

Yeah, I want to know more about that.

Meanwhile, Joe died of a cardiac arrest.

Police is that the most is that commonly what an overdose would cause.

I think I think it's pretty common.

Yeah, I think it is pretty common.

Yeah, yeah, especially when you can't you can't really breathe properly.

And there's yeah, I don't know, like with Yeah.

Police searched Joe's diary and found an appointment scheduled get ready to move move urgent today.

Joe was obviously trying to leave a new he wanted out.

I mean that's interesting in itself.

One, why do you put that in your diary when you live with someone?

Two he was happy at the dinner party.

By all accounts from other people.

I don't know.

Maybe they've said that because they feel like they realize they might be access to.

Yeah, well you know people, do you know, playne in front of other people if there's other people around.

I think sure, true.

True.

One year later, Anew and MARTIVI were scheduled to be tried together.

Oh wow, both charged with murder.

Yeah, this is what was going to happen.

Yeah.

Anew was held in custody a new phone of friend asking them to bring her all the high court cases where somebody had pled not guilty due to reasons of insanity.

I decided that's what she's going to thought, you're going.

To go with.

The joint trial began on October sixth, nineteen ninety eight.

At the Supreme Court, anw pled not guilty for reasons of diminished responsibility.

This meant that she admitted to what she had done, but she could not be held liable for murder because of her mental state at the time.

She claimed that she was suffering from untreated borderline personality disorder, a major depressive disorder, which include explosive anger, unstable relationships, chronic fears of abandonment, and a false sense of reality.

I don't really know if any of them would.

Justify murder killing someone, No, exactly.

Borderline personal disorder is an interesting one, Like I don't really know heaps about that.

I certainly know people who have had borderline personal disorder, and it is it is a very heartbreaking thing to see.

Yes, I can't think of a case I've heard of where that's been successfully as a defense for killing somebody.

But I could be very wrong.

I just can't think of the time I've heard that far.

It may have.

The dealer who supplied the heroine was granted immunity for providing evidence against the pair.

Many people came forward saying that they knew of the plans and that Martavi assisted in carrying out the plan.

When pressed, when no one came forward at the time, no one could provide a sufficient explanation.

That's why you got swangry before.

We can't provide one.

I'm so sorry.

I'm still waiting for you too.

You haven't finished this story yet, and if you don't provide me what, I'm going to be really mad.

During the fourth week of the trial, the judge realized that that mounting evidence against the pair would likely cause unfair prejudice against MARTIVI.

He terminated the proceedings, deciding that Martive and Anu should be tried separately at a later date.

Wait, what so I understand.

That realized that Martive should not be tried with a new.

You can't do that four weeks into her trial.

Surely, well apparently they did.

What This whole thing is so confusing, Like none of the things you're saying sound like they're real.

I know, they're just words, I say the prosecution.

Oh, not long enough now.

I just listened to the words you say, and then after a while I go, wait.

Wait, what the prosecution offered Anew the opportunity to plead to manslaughter for a reduced sentence, but she refused, maintaining her innocence.

While awaiting her second trial, Anew had a letter seized from her locker.

It read, I've decided to write down how this happened to get it clear in my mind.

Also, she went on to describe all of the events that led to Joe's death, starting with her and Martave going to the library to find the book on a Sister Dying.

She said that she had initially intended to end her own life, but then after reading about partners were married who had married a couple of years after their loved ones had died of suicide, she decided it was only fair that Joe would die with her.

So that's not your choice to be heartbroken.

Blah blah blah.

No, that is not your choice.

From then, all she thought about was death.

She wrote, Didn't I think at the time that these friends of mine were helping me to die?

Didn't I stop and think that Joe was helping me to live?

No?

I felt compelled to do it because I thought everyone was against me and only cared if Joe died or not.

No, sorry, I'm aware, and at the start you said you know compassion or understanding for her, and maybe we're getting there, but right now, quit with your poetic bullshit and now and just admit guilt.

She goes on, Then, I wasn't sure whether to call the ambulance because Martavy said that if you call the ambulance, he will leave you and put you.

Oh my God.

In a letter addressed to her mother, a new wrote, the most wonderful man in the world loved me so much, would have made a perfect husband and father ruined, perfect life ruined.

Now everyone is better off than me when I had it all.

I bet everyone is laughing at me now because of my own artist stupidity and selfishness.

You must start preparing for my death.

Now my life is over.

I made the wrong choice when so many others were available at the time, worked with Druggies rather than Joe.

Should have protected him and worked with him.

Now so many lives are ruined.

She's written this letter to her mother mother more than a year after Yeah, Oh God.

A new solo trial began in March nineteen ninety nine.

It was a judge only trial.

Her plays and.

There's also no way, yeah, that you could have any kind of person in the camera that wouldn't have known about you exactly.

Her plea was not guilty.

The defense stated that she suffered from borderline personal disorder and severe oppression since her teens.

She was in a delusional world where she truly believed that she was going to die from a disease.

She was suffering from a depressive illness that culminated in Joe's death.

Oh my God.

Psychiatrist spoke of a personal disorder as exacerbated by her substance abuse and bolimia.

If she had sought how help, it would have changed everything.

The psychiatrist stated that Anew should be put into a facility, not to prison.

The prosecution argued that a News actions were not impacted by her mental state and she was perfectly capable of making rational decisions.

This was proven by her waiting to call an ambulance and by the time she did it it seemed as though she was hindering efforts to saves to save Joe's life by giving false information.

They argued that she was depressed she would have actually killed herself after Joe not made not made her up, sorry, not made a decision for herself after that fact not to go.

Her diara was also displayed, which was destroyed and pieced back together, which showed a vengeance against Joe.

She also watched him die, which was an act of extraordinary cruelty.

Various witnesses described Anew as psycho dramatic and appeared healthy, which is why no one questioned whether she was serious in killing herself, which.

That's not fairver.

A psychiatrist for the prosecution concluded that Anew was of sound mind when she killed Joe.

Her problem was a lack of maturity, which impaired her from being able to control her moods or temper.

She had actually called a friend to ask for help, which showed that she was trying to remove any guilt away from her and worried about the consequences.

Justice Crispin acknowledged the profound challenges of the case.

He was satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that she intended to murder Joe, but he also accepted that she was suffering from an abnormality of mind.

It was impossible to determine what she was thinking at the time or what led her to take such actions.

The case was absolutely massive camera crews and journalists were everywhere ready for the verdicts.

The Chinque sat at the front of the courtroom awaiting the verdict.

They did not miss a day of court.

Maria was sobbing into a handkerchief.

The family could not accept that so many people knew of a news claims and that no one, particularly at both dinner parties, did anything about it.

Just as Crispin addressed anew directly, in the next few years, you will have to come to terms with the fact that you killed the man you love.

You have caused immense pain.

If you find the moral courage, you may be able to rebuild from this wreckage, to repay the trust people have put in you.

He then declared her not guilty of Joe's murder, but guilty of manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility.

Wow Aneur was sentenced to only ten years in prison, with a non parole period of four years backdated to the time of Joe's death.

She would be eligible in two years.

When Justice Crispin left the courtroom, Maria turned to Anneu and said, this is where you belong.

You stay forever.

Rod In how you bitch devil.

She's a demon?

My son that's all four years?

How can you sleep at night?

Four years?

Is that all my son is worth?

So sad, so sad.

Maria told the journalists outside that Aneu should have been sentenced to death.

It was widely believed that Anu had fooled the court into believing that she wasn't of sound mind.

Joe Chinque was twenty six years old.

He was looking forward to sharing his life with his girlfriend, a new singer.

He had supported her and he stayed with her with all her ailments, real or not real.

She herself called him the most wonderful man in the world.

She was premeditated, she planned to kill him, and she was acquitted of murder for diminished responsibility.

Six months later, Martivi Rau pled not guilty for Fuck's sake.

The prosecution stated that she was criminally responsible for aiding Anew.

She was fully aware of the plot to kill Joe and failed her duty of care.

The prosecution believed that she was present when Anu put the sedatives in Joe's coffee or a hypnoal that morning at six am, but it could not be proven what time this all happened and when Joe was injected.

When she saw Joe ill in his bedroom.

She did not have a duty of care and she was a friend, what not a spouse?

No no, no, no, no, no, no no no.

The defense maintained that she had no more legal responsibility than a complete stranger.

Yeah.

Sorry, surely there's still a duty of care for a stranger.

If you see someone with blue lips past out, do something about it.

She was alarmingly passive in her friendship with Anew and went to unhealthy lengths to put her friend's needs ahead of her own.

She had difficulty standing up for herself.

She taught a classmate, I've got a friend who's suicidal.

She smothers me.

A prison welfare officer overheard Anew putting the pressure on Martivi about getting their stories straight.

Martive was declared not guilty, fuck off of all charges.

Fuck off.

Although her story was suspicious, they could not prove that she shared a news criminal intent.

Maria and Nino had to be escorted out of the court for their protesting about what had happened.

Nino collapsed and was rushed to hospital with heart problems.

Martivi was let off.

She was now for just.

Not guilty, completely just acquitted.

Yeah, I was allowed to leave for sake.

A new later said, it's my fault entirely.

I was hysterical and she just loved me and wanted to help me.

What would sending her to jail have really done?

Would it have eased Maria and Nino's pain anymore?

That's not the only point of a guilty verdict, That's not the only point of punishment and rehabilitation, of retribution.

Having some sort of justice.

It seemed this perpetuating sorrow on so many people.

Her family would have suffered as my family suffered.

I don't put any blame on martyv I Knew served her sentence in a maximum security prison, where she worked in a prison library and shoot at other inmates.

She underwent psychotherapy and was prescribed for medication to treat depression, anxiety, and obsessed with combalsive disorder.

She was later transferred and granted day release to the University of Sydney.

In October two thousand and one, she was released on parole at the age of just twenty nine, two years old.

Two years yeah, only a few years older than Joe was when his life was taken away from him.

In two thousand and four, she breached her parole conditions for smoking cannabis and went back to prison for three months.

In two thousand and nine, she was awarded a doctorate from the University of Sydney for a thesis offending Women toward a greater understanding of women's pathways into and out of crime in Australia.

She has since admitted that she lied in nineteen ninety seven when she told a counselor that Joe had been abusive to her.

Joe had expressed frustration with her, but he never indicated that he wanted to leave her.

She had told him various times of her intention to take her own life, but he encouraged her to keep living.

Then asked why she did it, she said, there's absolutely no legitimate or rational motivation at all.

Martyve changed her name and moved to the United States with her husband and kids.

She got to have a life.

Yeah.

A lot of the people who went to the party on those nights went on to finish their law degrees.

The townhouse has since been demolished to make way for a new government housing project.

Joe's childhood room remains untouched.

The Chinquays are, of course still The Chinquas are of course, still perplexed as to why no one came to Joe's aid.

If you see a dog on the street from a car accident, you call somebody to help the bloody dog.

Her father, Nino said so his father, Nino said.

Joe Chinkway's death has often been cited as a tragic example of the bystander effect, a social psychological claim where people are less likely to help someone if others are present, believing someone else will act.

A new made a public apology to the Chinquei family on television a Current Affair in two thousand and seven scene, saying, there are many things people don't understand.

There's a lot of things that have been overlooked.

I was suffering from a very very severe mental illness of the time.

If I could have listened to people and sought the right sort of mental help, this wouldn't have happened.

I would like to say to Maria and Nino that I'm deeply, deeply sorry for what happened, and to that if I could, if there was any way I could turn back the clock, I would do so in a heartbeat.

In the same episode, Maria rejected the apology, calling anew the devil and responding, don't tell me this bullshit.

You have killed the most precious thing I had in my life.

My first son, my firstborn, the one who was going to carry his grandfather's name, is not here anymore.

Maria Chinque believes that Joe wasn't just betrayed by anew but also the entire justice system.

In the book Joe's Hinque's Consolation, Helen Ghana goes to visit Justice Crispin, who presided over the case.

Maria had called him all kinds of names and said that she hoped a child of his was murdered so he would understand.

Justice Crispin understood her hurt and frustration.

In fact, he had lost a child too, Oh God.

Helen asked him about his lenient ruling in the case of Sing.

He said both her parents were doctors.

They were terrified about the way she was behaving.

They lugged her to doctors and psychiatrists, and then twice tried to have her locked up as an involuntary patient.

Imagine how frightened you'd have to be about your own child to want to do that.

Justice Crispin also goes on to say about Martavi, I think Rau was very coerced as to what to do.

She was paralyzed with indecision.

I think Rau was very concerned as to what to do.

I think it means she was paralyzed with indecision.

Her friend was saying these things that were off the planet.

Nobody else was taking it seriously.

Should she take it seriously?

What if she blew the whistle and rang the police and then it all turned out to be a hoax.

That that doesn't matter.

By the time of her release, Arne already had a boyfriend who she met during her trial.

Back in nine ninety nine.

She spent eighteen months at the remand Center, where male and female inmates were able to make contact.

She had three romantic attachments in that time, but only one serious, who later went on to become her partner.

After being released, they moved to Sydney together.

I Knew managed to finish her PhD in prison and actually wanted to become a criminologist.

I Knew attempted to make a documentary about prison and approach the founder of a victim support group called Enough Is Enough.

The founder's response was that if she wanted to genuinely help people, yes, but if she wanted to make a film, then forget about it.

If she just wanted to make a film and just forget about it, they never heard back from a new A few months later, a new spoker out about how annoyed she had been about the public mistreatment and how difficult she felt it was to get a job in a chosen field.

Her boyfriend was quoted as saying she wasn't an angel, but has served her two years.

In the book Joe Chinquay's Consolation by Helen Ghana, she starts out wanting to talk to to Martvi to get their sides of the story, but what she realizes is that she needed to get to dojo.

She visited with his family so many times and learned not to sit in Joe's chair every time she visited that was his as if they were waiting for him to return home.

They also had a photo of him in the kitchen, and when Halen would bring something along like a bottle of wine, it was placed next to Joe as if he was waiting for his house guest.

I'd like to end today with Helen talking about sitting with Marie Chinkuey on the couch of their family home they're watching Joe at a wedding that he was seeing.

He looks somehow different from his companions at the wedding, with his rather harsh haircut that swept any kind of mullet, bared his long, slender neck, and stripped his cheeks of side burns.

How much of this was projecting with the knowledge I had of horrible fate.

It was magic, thinking, sentimental.

I tried to pull myself into line, but I wasn't the only person to be struck by Joe An a casual moment of proceedings with the guests were attacking the dessert and nothing for more was in progress, where children were tearing about the dance floor among the drifting balloons, and Joe was just standing there alone behind the long bridle table, smiling benignly and looking around him with a calm, bright curiosity.

The camera zoomed in discreetly and framed him front m head and shoulders against the dark curtain.

It had no reason to single him out in that moment, let alone focus on his agreeable face, but it found it, and it dwelt on him.

It lingered intimately and without He's ever realizing for a good seven or eight seconds.

His face was fine and sensitive, still faintly blurred look, with youth not yet said in the hard lines of manhood.

He looked like a man who was lightly poised on the very rim of the world he came from.

I sat on his parents couch and watched him with my heart in my mouth.

Maria too, ceased her murmured commentary.

We gazed in silence on our undefended son.

That g is a devastating case of jo chinqua.

Thanks, I hate it.

Oh my god, We've never cried this much.

Do you think we should take a break and come back and Sammy, thank you so much for telling that story.

Jesus Christ, what a roller coaster the motion.

We just take kind of a big break just then.

Yea, we just sat and cried a lot and hugged and then discussed it a bit.

And you sent me a photo that you took of digs during during that which actually bright my day.

It is.

It is such a I highly recommend the book.

I just asked you literally as you were pressing record, did you cry while you were reading that or was it just because you were kind of like saying it all together as one story?

And please repeat your I did.

I absolutely cried during it.

It is the words were I cried a lot, cried a lot.

It's also I was crying on the train when they read, which isn't a good look.

But it is so beautiful.

I think my connection to it, other than it is just a it is just a horrible story.

Is my brother.

So he had drug psychosis from a young young age and he would do things like he became a very violent person.

We had all the restrained orders on him.

He became someone that I didn't know any more, didn't recognize, and I grew up with that from the age of about fifteen.

That was my life, and I had all these reading orders with my brother.

I kind of understood how someone can fall through the cracks quite easily.

And I don't think there's a lot of support for mental health in Australia.

I also find it so disappointing that you cannot get someone there are so many you have to be assessed by a cat team, and my brother was quite charming when it came to it, And I think there are just there's so much wrong with the legal system, There is so much wrong with the mental health system, and you know, throughout this book, the line is repeated over and over again, no matter what, Joe Chinkway is dead.

And that line is repeated fifty times throughout the book, and she talks to every single person.

Then she goes, Joe Chinkway is dead, and that is what the book should be called, because it is just yeah, but a young man who everyone loved, who.

Didn't do anything, to do.

Anything, and his mum was you know, called him JOSEPPI to follow on you know, his grandfather's footsteps.

It is.

It's so heartbreaking a case and our tickes come on.

Dis just come to.

Kisses.

But dear, well, yeah, but it is so yeah, he's very shy, digs never that in his love.

But it is it is so sad because you you look at these people and you go even the people that went to the dinners even like I just don't understand.

I can't understand, like you said during it, like if you were invited to a dinner like that, you would if you don't know someone, of course you would say what is going on and understand what's happening.

I'd tell people I wouldn't go to the dinner, but I would also then tell people what was said and report that, like, I'm quite common, quite confident.

It's very easy to say I would have should have cut her.

I really feel quite confident I would yeah, no, I'm not coming to that dinner, and I would call authorities like I would feel quite confident.

Yeah, yeah, like I'm a big dipper dubba though parently from way back.

Yeah, do you ever hear that what you used to say?

Dip dubbers with chocolate nappies.

That's disgusting.

Yeah, chocolate chocolate nappy What.

Does that mean?

I think they put themselves and then everyone else will go, oh what, I don't want to be one of them.

Then I'll keep this secret with myself.

No no secret secrets.

And if one secret secrets hurt.

Someone, that's actually true.

And also dubbers chocolate no no, no, take that, but it is.

I don't know.

I found the whole book so interesting.

So Helen Ghana wrote a Monkey Grip and this it was her first as I know, her first true crime, and it really made her a national bestseller because it was like, how do you write about this in a way?

You know, she talks about her own divorce during this she wow, you know, having an abortion.

She talks there is so much in here that you go, oh wow, So she can at the time, you know, when if that story about And I kind of canvas this by saying, if all of this is true, when when a new terminated her pregnancy, then Helen talks about that, and she has a way of connecting with people.

Then obviously she wrote this House of Grief, which catapulted her, catapulted her into the worldwide stage like as a as this this incredible, incredible writer.

But I went in to get the Mushroom cook Book and I came out with this, and I mean I bought both, but it was just like so interested in going and yeah, and I just looked at it and when you know, it's got a green apple on the front cover like you said at the start, and I just went, what is this and what is this story?

And it wasn't you know, I'm not a big I mean I really I am a big true crime fanatic, but I don't source it out and sit and devoured and this was just fascinating and like people looking at this book, we'll just go what is that?

Oh?

Do you ever hear about the story.

Some people had heard of the story, but a lot of people didn't know that Martave left and.

Oh my god, I've got so many things on the.

Country, and also that a new only got you know, in the end two years.

Okay, I want to get to that.

First of all, I want to talk about the book.

Why do you think it's titled Joe Chinkwa's Consolation?

And why has got the green apple on the front?

I kind of feel that that was the poison apple, aha, that was given to him a consolation.

I don't really know.

Why do you think it's called I don't know.

I don't like the title.

No, I don't like it.

What does the world?

What's the definition of consolation?

Look it up?

It up right, because, yeah, I find the title.

I think it should have been called in Sorry, Helen's is just one note, Hell's health belt.

I think Joe Joe Chinkway's Dead would have been.

It would have been a great title.

But I wonder why she chose.

I don't don't I'll look up the actual definition.

I don't like.

Great chick, good right, good right, great chick?

Okay, So the comfort received by a person after a loss or disappointment.

The example sentence is there was a consolation in knowing that others were worse off.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, I just it's like, you know, a consolation prize where you go, oh, sorry, you didn't get this, but here's a consolation prize.

To me, That's why I don't like that title.

It makes it feel like there's something that's okay about it.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe in a way that would sounds bizarre.

No.

I think maybe the consolation is that she received the help.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Well, the tag is a true story of death, grief, and the law.

Yeah, I'm really fascinated about that title.

I'm a real nerd.

I think I've said this on him before.

Whenever I read or watch something that I really like or really hate, I go into a deep dive of reviews and interviews with the authors or the writers.

And I know that I'm going to do that as soon as I leave here.

What I love the most about this is that it ends with a photo of Joe, which is lovely, so you can kind of see the person that he was, and I, you know, I just go oh wow, Like he was so young, he was such a beautiful looking person.

He had just a face that you can imagine Maria like, you know, like just loving and being obsessed with and grabbing his face.

That's what I felt.

And you can kind of understand how, you know, a family that came to us Aralia for a better life would look at this and go this is criminal and they and also I think the big thing that really struck me was in grief.

These this family are going through this unspeakable grief.

They ran out of money because because they were going to Canberra, and they went to every single day of the trial and would take their own lunch and they would sit in the park and Alen Ghan would walk by and sit with him in the park.

And there was a police officer that was lovely to them that would just chat with them every day and would drive up to Newcastle to talk to them and they would I don't know that.

I think a lot of the time, when people get really sick or people you know, go through something like this, you don't think about that.

They can't work, they can't do anything there.

They just got this huge cost of living and they're having to do all this stuff.

I don't know, it just it just seems wild to me that this you don't think about these poor people went along to everything, and then they.

Didn't do anything.

Joe didn't do anything to deserve it.

They didn't do anything to deserve it either, and they've got this life sentence that she doesn't have and who doesn't have, Okay, which brings me to talk about that.

What do you think about first of all, put aside the sentence, what do you think about the guilty of manslaughter but not of murder verdict?

I don't know.

I feel like there was a lot of intent.

I feel like it was premeditated.

I feel like it because of the first party Monday.

You have a week to think about it.

Like, I feel like it was murder and I but I also know that she didn't have I know, the mental stability.

And that's something that yeah, I you know, I'm touching what as I say this, don't have lived experience with someone with reduced mental capacity like that, or you know, I don't know that.

I don't know what that's like to be in or to be around, which I'm very grateful for.

But it's very hard from my privileged perspective to understand or to agree that there's no criminal capacity.

Well sorry, not no criminal capacity.

She was still found guilty of manslaughter, But the criminal diminishment of that I find really hard to understand.

Isn't there is there a minimum term for manslaughter.

There's no minimum term for anything.

There's only maximum terms for things.

But yeah, then that follows on to the next question, is the four years with two years, four years, four years minimum sentence, that's fucking nothing.

At the time of Joe's death.

I don't really understand that because she's a man center for that.

Time, but because she was incarcerated for the whole time.

It's always with time served.

A sentence is never from the day you are sentenced if you've been incarcerated for that whole time.

So she did spend four years in jail essentially.

But so too there a man center and then romance.

Center is jail, and that is arguably worse.

A lot of people say that's worse than the prison and everything, But then you know you've also gone on to say she found a lovely boyfriend there too.

People, I think a couple of relationships.

What do you think you think?

Yeah, obviously that she should be that she should have been tried for murder.

Yeah, look, I don't know if I disagree, even on the on the finding of it being man's sort rather than murder.

But I think she should have got whatever the maximum penalty is for maximum sentences for manswater.

I cannot and do not agree with the four years.

Minimum, and I don't agree with might have be just getting off.

Oh my god.

Okay, then that brings me to my last part, and the reason I left that to last is because I'm sorry.

In my humble opinion, that is fucked to me.

She is potentially the guiltiest or as guilty.

No, I think, I mean my opinion, she's the most guilty.

She wasn't mentally incapacitated.

She wasn't she didn't have psychosis, borderline personality disorder anything she says she was.

No.

I think he used the word coorse but then actually corrected that she wasn't like under course of control by it.

She just didn't know what to do.

Like sorry, that's not a defense in my mind, that's I think that's fucked.

That person is guilty of murder at the very least man's order.

We didn't have murder in the first to murder in the second degree like America does.

This is probably the only case I've ever thought and maybe we need that.

So I think that's murder in the second degree.

I cannot believe she was entirely acquitted.

She's married and has a fan.

I mean, that's not to say anyone after doing their time can go on and have a wonderful life and marry and have a family.

That's not to take that away from her, but that she's been acquitted and she's never she's never had.

I know, justice, I know, And what I kind of in the in the book, what I what I found really difficult was Helen Ganna goes to talk to and who his dad And it is really heartbreaking, it is, you know, and he's turning up going oh, Marie Chino won't look at me and everything, and going yeah, of course, but these people are human.

You know, yes, And that is really sad too.

It's not the parents fault.

I understand being mad a new and mar Devi, but obviously not the parents.

But then of course I can understand, well I can't understand, but I can imagine you wouldn't want to look at anyone from their camp at all.

And oh god, the whole thing is just heartbreaking.

What a terrible waste of.

Life, lives yeah.

Yeah, well, well I think I think, you know, there are a lot of people who have been hurt by.

This, but there has been lost.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I found I found the letter that a new wrote to her mum really interesting.

Yeah, because it says I'm completely guilty of what I did.

I don't know why I did it.

Yeah, okay, Devil's advocate.

That can be a bit of woe is me?

Feel sorry for me because a year later and I want to have a diminished responsibility?

I do, I do wonder you know how much of it was her going I'm going to act like I'm mad too, Yeah, I don't.

You just don't know diminished responsibility for a number of reasons.

I'm going to act like this, or I'm going to go, oh I'm sad, I might be found guilty.

I'll say, oh, he didn't deserve this, he was wonderful.

I'm the one that should have gone.

Yeah.

I feel a little bit like getting out my mini violin?

Is it only dimished and you don't have one?

Is the only diminished responsibility in Australia?

Is that what it's called?

Everywhere?

Is it?

Yeah?

Because there's another term for it where I'm digs just fun.

Didn't he said?

He didn't say he didn't because he's sleeping and I'm upset enough now I'm also choking.

She's yelling at you.

He smells like he's wearing a chocolates.

You're a dipper.

Because he's a Hey, can we go?

Before we end today's can we go?

Can we go?

We've had so many, so many messages about the Fred and Rose West episode.

People have absolutely devoured that.

I know a lot of people listen to it in one city.

I know, and God love you all.

But also I'm really mad at you all for all going yay two and a half of our episode.

It was so much work.

I love you all so much.

But let us rest.

Look, we're going to go to some letters.

So this one comes from Shanna, our mail bag.

If you want to leave us and internet letter, you can Sammy at justinother company, dot com dot au.

We'll follow us on Instagram.

You can send us message there at just another podcast.

Come on, you can do it.

You can do it.

You can do it.

Not another crime focus.

Yeah, Also you can leave as a voicemail.

All the links are below.

We call the website to speak pipe, but we're going to be here through the Christmas and holiday periods and we would absolutely love to hear from you during that time.

We're going to keep you company, so why don't you keep us company as well.

This is from Shanna.

Hey guys, I just finished the Fred and Rose West episode.

Oh wow.

I had to stop a few times to get through it, but I made it to the end.

I'm from England and neew of them, but I was like five when all of this happened, so didn't really know any of the details.

On a different note and not true crime related, Georgia, I need recommendations for shows to see in London please.

I am heading back home to England for the first time in nine years on Saturday and staying in London for a few days.

I need to know what is good, so please let me know.

As always love the podcast Heaps.

You guys are awesome.

Have a beautiful afternoon.

Oh my god.

Thanks Shanna.

Sammy please send me email address so I can email her before because if she's going on Saturday, this episode doesn't come out to Monday, so I'll email you before anyone else who's interested.

Lamey's on the West End always it's like one of the longest running I think maybe the longest running after Fantom finished up there.

Yeah that always.

I think six is still playing there.

That's great, it's quick and fun.

Yeah, funny.

Trying to think of what else is playing there at the moment.

Bless o cal and SEENI but I would like to I apologize.

I've been to Broadway twice in the last year, but not the West End, so I've got to know what else.

Oh, Operation mince Meat?

Great?

Great, right, Operation mince Meat?

Yes, okay, well, yeah, there's some great options there and so yeah, so glad that you enjoyed the Fred and Rose Rose West episode.

Not enjoyed, but you know, but I found it really interesting because you did it in a really in depth way.

A lot of people are talking about how how the documentary did it in a different way, and this was good to hear kind of the full story, even if people knew this before.

Oh.

Thanks, that's really nice as well, because I even said in the episode like it wasn't really in that in depth because I didn't go into any of the heinous sexual abuse.

Yeah, well it was.

I didn't want to, but it was in Yeah.

Yeah, there's even obviously more to it than that.

But you're right, the docos just kind of goes into kind of starts with an assumption that you.

Know, yeah, yeah, exactly, which is always hard for a documentary like I think the John Benet Ramsey wanted.

Netflix did that as well, and sometimes you go, Okay, well we don't know what if we don't know much about it.

Sammy, that's why people need to listen to this podcast, right, people that they get the background story and that's how they fallen love.

With us, fall in love with us and.

He perform out of Love with him for the moment.

Also, there was someone who commented, Joe Turner who's been.

On the Yes, oh my god, so Joe Turner longtime listeners will recognize his name or if you don't, please go back and listen.

Sammy did a one on one Thursday Treat episode with him about the Danie La Plant story.

He wrote a book about daniela plant, and Joe Turner's commented on our Instagram and I'm saying this off the top of my goddamn head.

I'm not even looking at my phone right now.

He messaged and said, not only did I do an episode with you about Daniel plant.

My parents lived near the West and I bought furniture from Fred West.

Is that right?

Memory installed their fireplace.

Installed their fire.

In the house.

They had it removed since he did say that.

He said after after finding out what they did, we had it removed.

But I'm sorry, Joe Turner, but things come in threes.

So what other true crime story do you have a connection with?

Yeah?

Absolutely, what about this one.

This is a speak pipe aka voice Welcome Cat.

Hi, Georgie, and Sammy.

This is Cat.

I've been listening from the start of your podcast.

Still loving it.

This is my second speak pipe.

I'm sitting here with my dog Clancy.

Oh, I remember Cat mug.

And I've just finished the Friend and Rose Good Story, which was Yeah, I mean we all know what that is.

Now.

I love this podcast.

I've been recommending it to people.

I've been getting them.

To listen to it.

I've got other people hooked and I'm trying to let go of something because this is from quite a few episodes ago now, but it keeps popping into my head and I just need to get it out.

When Sammy did an episode on the Mona Lisa being stolen, he was not saying Mona as I believe it's pronounced.

He was saying Mona, Lisa.

The thing is, Georgia, you didn't correct her, which makes me feel like maybe Mona is correct.

But oh my god, I really thought it was Mona.

So I'm just questioning myself now because I feel like Georgia, you would have corrected him if he was wrong.

You didn't, But I feel like I'm right.

It just needs to get that off my chest.

Okay, love you guys, eve to what you're doing.

Fuck.

I love our listeners.

Fuck I love our listeners.

Okay, can you be really honest.

I didn't correct you because I was hearing myself and going, you stupid bitch, are so annoying, and you just stop correcting your best friend.

I'm just being like an annoying I'm being Have you ever watched How I Met Your Mother?

No?

Really?

Yeah?

Okay, you know my best friend anyone?

Anyway.

I like that show.

But Ted Moseby is the main character who I love but like really famously people hate him, and one of the things he does is correct people's English and brother, so I know that I do it a lot.

Also, it's funny that I said correct English because obviously, Mona Lisa is not English English, Yeah, Inglish, se yes.

I correct people.

Often sometimes I stop myself because I'm going you're being a bitch.

Just let it go now, Mona Lisa.

Mona Lisa is Italian.

I believe in Italian it's Mona Lisa, which could be heard Mona Lisa or Monalesea.

It's kind of in between.

I let it go because I don't know.

I believe that English speaking people usually pronounce it Mona Lisa, but I'm not certain that that is correct.

So I didn't say I let it go, but Cat did not.

Cat, you are one of mine.

Thank you, Cat for getting me in trouble after the fact, we've also got let's do.

Why is this why I am in the position of life that I am.

No, you're a wonderful person.

Why wou't you look me in the eye.

I can't.

Love the show.

Since you got Mister Sunday Movies was my first introduction.

Then you know, every time I'm going to drive through you know, Hoddle street work and stuff, I've been yeah, pumping it so good ship.

I have a suggestion for I'm living in Melbourne, but I'm from the Blue mountains outside of Sydney, and there's this case of a missing woman called Blinda Peasley and basically you can find a doco on iView.

I think that's where I got right.

Okay, it's this woman who or young lady who got a house from like a dead relative I think it was, and it basically turned into a trap house.

Katoomba at the time was like big Heroin capital.

So I turned into a trap house.

And she went missing and no one really looked into it for like thirteen years in open up a thing until thirteen years later.

So they're asking a bunch of like you know, Heroin addicts, what happened on.

The specific nor years ago.

I just think that's crazy.

But I bring it up because I actually lived in that house after she'd gone missing a rent, so that would just be an interesting listening.

All right, thanks go.

Bye bye bye bye bye.

Wow, that's fascinating many thank you for.

Listening down Hoddle Street.

When he said I drive down Hoddle Street to work, first of all, you'll drive past my work.

Secondly, I thought you were going to suggest Julian Knight And if if any listeners don't know what I'm talking about.

Don't look it up.

I'll do it another time.

Yeah, yeah, Benny, that's fascinating.

Wow, we'll definitely have to do that.

Thank you to everyone that always writes in.

You can write in, send me an email to send me at just another company dot com dot au.

You can send a voicemail.

All the links are below.

You can follow us at not Another Crime Podcast on TikTok.

Also, you can leave well, no, leave us.

Five us, leave us a five star, Tell at least three friends.

Still on social media.

Oh my god, tag us on such media.

Sammy, I love our listeners so freaking much.

SAME's Oh good.

I was actually at a funeral last week and had three different people come up to me to say how much they.

Loved this podcast.

Oh I love that so much.

How beautiful is that?

That is beautiful?

Thank you to Oliver Clark doing the music and the artwork.

You sound like you're about to wrap up.

Repeave again.

Now we don't always do it.

We forgot it last week.

But we always do it right at the end.

So, Georgia, what is your repeat?

It will start churning, people start turning off when they hear us.

Right.

No, I'll do mine first.

Okay, looking up.

I had to call the doctor last week because I need to get a repeat prescription for my anxiety medication.

I only did it as a tallyhealth appointment ninety two dollars, oh.

My, just to get a new prescription.

And then you've got to pay for the subscription.

That is nuts.

When when you only we are getting a script refilled.

It is a two second conversation.

My pet peeve is that they're charging you through the asshole, charging you through the goddamn asshole.

We're talking about bums today.

A lot about bums today.

All right, mind, I've got two things that I'm actually gonna say us stories.

They're not pet beeves, they're straight up hates.

But then the third thing on my list.

A woopy Goldberg once said, they said to you have pet peeves, and she says, I have whole kennels of irritation.

Oh my god, that's me.

I'm woopi Goldberg say that because you're thinking of will be a cushion, because you're talking about bums a lot.

Yeah, I'm talking about.

Bumps people dressing.

Oh my god, my pet Beeves were bumps.

This is great.

I'm a bordal of them.

People dressing their bums on planes.

I hate what do you mean?

People dressing like they are sitting on their couch eating their KFC in front of a movie.

The freaking airport, dirty tracksuit pants and active wear, and just like people dressing like they are sitting on their own couch at home.

On a plane, you don't have to dress up, right, You don't have to wear a suit unless you're a business class.

That is caveat.

But if you're going to the airport and you're going on a plane, just dress like you're leaving the house.

Do you not notice that?

Like these days this scene, babes, I'm such an old, grumpy carrying lady.

But in my day you would get dressed nicely and that could just be jeans and a goddamn T shirt.

Sure to get on a plane.

Everyone is walking through the airport in their big oversized tracksuit pants and like little crop tops and stupid big huge over the top of headphones, like all slouchy walking through the airport and getting on the plane.

If you're going on a long flight that you're gonna sleep, change into comfort clothes on the plane.

If you're not even it's a domestic flight, So you wear them on the plane because you are in like society, you are interacting with other people, You're sitting in communal chairs, you're in like cafes and stuff at the airport terminal.

Dress normally, dress nicely.

Again, I'm not saying like you have to dress up, but just where like you and I wearing.

Now, I'm wearing like a white shirt and denim shorts.

You're wearing jeans and a T shirt.

That's great, that's fine.

Don't wear over oversized, gross, dirty trackies and a crop top like you're going to the gym or lounging on your couch.

I'm angry.

Now, Okay, you meant to agree with me with that.

You don't agree, but I think right we're going angry.

You and I are both going to Hoba on the weekend.

We're not gonna be at the airport at same time.

But I'm gonna wear my tracksuit.

No, if I don't get dressed on the way.

When you arrive in Hobert and we reconvene, I'm going to say to you, did you look around and notice everyone dressed like bums?

And did it make you angry?

And you're going to say no, that's.

I was wearing my strike eye mask.

Just you don't have to dress up.

Just dress please, just like you're going to work in normal off its.

Dress like you're going to walk down the street and see somebody for a coffee.

That's fine, that's fine, that's I'm fine with that.

Okay, you're going to meet somebody for a coffee dressed like that.

Don't dress like you're going to sit on your couch all day or go to the before.

I love KFC, but that's the thing.

When you're eating your KFC at home on the couch, you want to be comfy.

You don't need No, no, you don't.

Now my poeldry peeve is you do not agree with I love you guys.

There's another really long episode, Sammy, that was really beautiful.

Thank you so much.

That was devastating.

I'm gonna go on a deep dive as soon as I get home and probably cry some more.

Please or let us know how much you love, hated, hated, loved this episode, Sammy.

Thank you, goodbye bye,