Leaving the Game: Reinventing My Career at 36 Antti Koivula: [00:00:00] It was something that, that was on 24 7. For example, observing when, when the market opens on, and I had alerting systems and, I might have woken up 2:00 AM to check the opening lines and all that. And then in the final years towards the end of my career, I ended up seeing 500 games on venue per year. It's not only long hours. I mean, anyone can do long hours and just consume a lot of, coffee, you know, or, whatever. But in professional sports bettor you actually have to be extremely sharp all the time. You are making huge decisions. You have to process a lot of data all the time coming from all around you. Being 5-year-old to actually concentrate on something for a long period of time. It's something that's rather exceptional in, that sense. Even those kids who played chess, they might have just went on doing something else, after 10 minutes or, whatever. And I was able to concentrate there for several hours in a row. [00:01:00] I basically left alcohol, I left caffeine, I have made several other similar life choices as well. I've consciously analised, my behaviour and behavioural traits that doesn't really fit on doing something that requires extreme focus, extreme attention. Leo Judkins: Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins and as an ex iGaming Director turned Performance Coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain, bet365, Flutter and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said, let's dive in. Leo Judkins: [00:02:00] Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. I am really excited to be talking to Antti Koivula today. Absolute expert on Finish Law. We've met, in Malta, I believe, when we were having dinner, and, such an intriguing story Anti I. Yeah, been really excited to talk to you, get to know you a little bit better here on the podcast. Talk about your challenges and the learnings that you've had from that. And, yeah, share, share with everybody what kind of journey you've had. So welcome to the podcast, Antti Koivula: Thank you very much, Leo. Pleasure to be here. Leo Judkins: one of the big things that I loved so much about what you were saying is, is how you got, you know, how your entire journey from, from sports betting into now being a lawyer. can you talk to us a little bit more about kind of how your career started, and we will talk a little bit about pivoting and, and where you are now. But I'd love to talk a little, a little bit about the beginning, if that's okay for you, for how you, how you started as a, yeah, as a sports bettor. Antti Koivula: [00:03:00] Yeah I, I basically have two careers as, as mentioned, or you, you already hinted. I, I used to be a professional sports bettor. I did that for 12, 15 years. That was my main. Main living hood. And from there, I switched to law, but I, I, I guess we handle that later on. how, how I got to sports betting. I used to have this side job for data collecting. I, I did that for, I, I got 50 euros per game and it was good. I, I got to see a lot of games and, I have background in, in, in football, not high level football. But anyway, I, I, I loved sports and uh. I, I, I got to see a lot of games and I even got some, some money out of it, and it was, you know, no brainer for myself. Back, back then. one day, a after the game, I met a professional sports bettor, Timo, who used to be a, a, a rather good player as well in, in, in, in the highest divisions in, in, in Finland. He introduced me the, the fact that it's actually possible to bet on these games, and, it opened a whole, whole new world for me. [00:04:00] I mean, I, I had already seen a lot of lower league football and, I, my, my knowledge regarding the, the teams and, the, the players was rather considerable. And I, I, I just got, got to sports betting with, with, you know, small amounts first. Then I just, obviously I didn't win every bit, but I, I get constantly winning much more than I lost. And during the years, the, the, the winnings increased. So notably that I, I, I left the, the data collection job rather, rather fast. After, after got in, after I got into sports betting and I, it became my, my full-time, full-time shop, more or less. And, I, I wouldn't consider it only a job. It was lifestyle. [00:05:00] I mean, it was something that, that was on 24 7, for example, observing when, when the market opens on, on Finnish second division or Finnish first division, it's that that might have happened in Asia in the middle of a Finnish night. And I had alerting systems and I, I, I might have woke up 2:00 AM to check the, opening lines and, and, and all that. And then in the final years. Well, no, not in the final years, but towards the end of my, my career, I ended up, ended up seeing 500 games on venue per year. So it, it, it, it was really, and it, it, it became really hectic. during summer season when football is played in Finland. My, my working hours were just crazy, just out of roof. I might have worked a hundred hours a week. I, I used to do 16, 18 hour Saturdays. I, I was absent home every single weeknight. [00:06:00] And when it comes to weekends. you know, it, it, it, it was just crazy. And that was actually the, the one reason why I decided to switch careers. I, I've been, realistic, I, I consider my, myself realist in the sense that I never thought sports betting would be something I would do until I retire up, until I don't know, my sixties or whatever. And, I studied law meanwhile, and, I didn't. I didn't want to graduate when, when I was still doing sports betting, because if I would ever practice law and ever apply to a, you know, law related job, it would look weird if I would have, let's say, five years gap in my cv. So, basically my, my studies were rather, rather far, far, and, I, I just didn't, didn't graduate and, when, when I made the decision to switch carriers, I, I, I took. [00:07:00] I, I, I graduated and, I didn't, I ever, I, I didn't ever, actually look for a job, but I was, the day I joined LinkedIn, I was contacted directly by my current employer and, we, we, we got into talking and, that, that was the beginning of my current career. Leo Judkins: Love it man. Love it. Hey Antti, I, I, love what you said there, like, I, I dunno how many people actually realise how intense that is. You know, doing a hundred, a lot of people say, I'll do a hundred hours, but literally doing a hundred hours. Like, what did life look like at that point? You had a wife, were your kids already born? They weren't back then. Right? So Antti Koivula: towards the end of my, my sports betting career. I, I, my, my older, older. Kid was born. And that was basically the reason why I wanted to switch carriers. I really valued, valued my, my, family life. I want to spend a lot of time with my kids. And, by, with, with, with my sports [00:08:00] betting carrier, it wouldn't have been possible 'cause I, I would've basically been always absent. And as you mentioned, it's, it's not only long hours. I mean, anyone can do long hours and just consume a lot of, coffee, you know, or, or whatever. And just, just to hang, hang on there. But in, in professional sports bettor you actually have to be extremely sharp all the time. You are making huge decisions. You have to process a lot of data all the time coming from all, all around you. And that's, I mean. On, on, on Saturdays when the situation was more, 10 most tense. I was just, you know, my, my eyes were just going around everywhere. There's this constant flood of, of information and it's. It, it's, it's not like just you, you would just sit on your computer and do some typing using some social media meanwhile and, and whatever. But it was extremely intense. Usually, you know, more or less, all, all, all the time. I really [00:09:00] had to, when going from a game to game, I, I, I even had to schedule when I have time for toilet visits. So, yeah, it's, it, it, it, it, it was extremely interesting and it's, it's not easy to explain. Explain, to someone who haven't actually experienced the same, same, thing. In general, I, I, I've always been rather good to focus. I can, I can just, close everything else outside of my head, but no matter what's, what's going on around me. I mean, if, if it's, if it's required, you know, I, I wouldn't even know this if there's an explosion around me. If, if, if I'm really on the own, that's. That, that's the thing. I appreciate the fact that I've been a professional in sports betting. It has value for them per se, by, by itself and others who are not that familiar with the concept, they might not, you know, see any, any added value. [00:10:00] That being said, my sports betting, sports betting days have really molded me to the person I'm, I'm currently. And, and sports bet. It's all about focus. It's all about handling huge pressure all the time. It's all about risk assessment and risk benefit ratio. And also it's the ability to process small, you know, tiny, smallest information there are, or the more precise information and actually. make a understand how it affects the big picture, and by, by that understanding and Antticipating what might happen in the future, how the, how the game might go on, how, how, how, how all the things will play out. And obviously all these, all these things are extremely useful on, on my current, current job as well as a, as a legal advisor. [00:11:00] I can make the argument that, you know, that's, that's my, my greatest benefits. I'm, I'm not a, about legal jargon or, you know, law states. This, law states that obviously it's, it's important to understand the framework with which you work. But anyway, the, the law is much more than what it stated on the, on the law book. It's all about practice. It's all about the. Risk assessment, likelihoods and, and, and all that. It's, and that's, that's what I'm all about. Leo Judkins: Yeah. Love it. And I, there's such a direct overlap, right? And, and if you are listening to this podcast, and like, one of the things I was thinking about before actually coming here is how interesting it often is that we don't see these unrelated skills, right? We don't see the, you don't see how connected these two things are you in. A lawyer, lawyer profession now, and, and sports, sports betting. Right. But they are so connected. [00:12:00]You've got a very unique set of skills and, and they make you highly practical, make you very, very good at, at what you do. when was the, when was the first time that you realised that you had such a, you know, such a, such an ability to focus? Antti Koivula: I mean, it was in, in, in the school. I never had problems on concentrating and, I, I, I, I was able to basically zone in if, if, if needed and then zone out when, not, not needed, but it, it's, and, and that skill only, you know, increased by time and, uh. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to say it, it, it was maybe more clear as in when, when playing chess. I, got to chess when I was, four or five years old. I, I was competing against, you know, adults and, and, and, and, and other people at the age of five in, in official chess competitions or already at that age. [00:13:00] And, what I can say from my own kids, with all, all due respect to them and all, all kids in general, but concentration, it, it, it's not easy for, for someone, for being 5-year-old to actually concentrate on something for a long period of time. It's, it's something that's. That's rather, rather exceptional in, in, in, in that sense. And maybe, maybe I started, I think I, I, I must have already started noticing that on, on my, really early, in, early days in, in my youth as, as most kids were, just, even those kids who played chess, they might have just went on doing something else, you know, after, after 10 minutes or, whatever. And I, I was able to concentrate there for, for several hours in a row. Leo Judkins: No, it's true, isn't it? Like I, I coach rugby. I coach rugby for the kids, and it's just impossible for them to stand still. So I completely hear what you're saying. okay. Hey, I love it. what are some of the things that you've done over time to help you with focus? Tell me a little bit more about what you've done over the years to help you with optimising your own mental or physical perform or whatever that looks like for you. Antti Koivula: [00:14:00] Well, even though I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm extremely, it, it, you know, I have like, extremely good ability to focus. I, I still understand the need to optimise and for example, in in, in my sports betting days, in the beginning, I used to consume a lot of, coffee. I, I was occasional drinker as well, and I, it was rather clear that, you know, having a hangover when doing 16, 18 year, 1618 hour Saturdays and ex extremely focused work, that doesn't work out. So I, I basically left alcohol, I left caffeine I, I, I have made several other similar life choices as well. Now, don't get me wrong, I, I still have my bad habits. I And, I, I, I, I, I love unhealthy food and, and all that. [00:15:00]But anyway, I've consciously analised, my, behaviour and the, the, behavioural traits that doesn't really fit on, on doing something that requires extreme focus, extreme attention. And I've tried to eliminate and, and modify, eliminate those traits. I So alcohol and caffeine tho those two will make the, the, the greatest examples in, in that sense Leo Judkins: Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah, I can imagine like on a hangover for doing two hours of fog, what like, 30 minutes of focus work is quite difficult. So, I hear what you're saying. Hey Antti, then at some point, right, you, like. You walked away. So as, as a perform journal sports bet, of course it takes risk assessment. There's, uncertainty, there's constant analysis, but you walked away from that success to then start as a, as a law student, right? [00:16:00] So can you take me back to that moment when you first seriously considered leaving betting behind him? Like what was happening in your life to make you question everything you've built and, and how did you feel in that moment? Because you must have taken that same, an analytical approach to that specific decision. Antti Koivula: as, as mentioned, I'm realist. I never considered sports betting as, you know, something to retire from. And I, I, I was actually studying law. I. Meanwhile, I was, I was doing sports betting and, the, the law, law career has been my, huge dream and I, I, I really enjoy the, the fact that there's a framework within which you can, you can operate and if you know the framework, you will be able to, you know, fight the polar lines and, and allow the accepted and, and so forth. You will be able, able to use it for. For your and, and your client's gain. [00:17:00] And, you know, when the money kept growing and all went fine, it's. It's just that all, all my other life was basically on pause. Obviously I was doing lots of, you know, so-called normal stuff as well. But you know, my, at least when it comes to my professional life, that was, that was on hold or other, other professional life. I, I guess the concrete change happened. When, my wife became pregnant to, to our first kid. That was, that wasn't something unexpected that we had, you know, planned for that in, in, in, in advance and, and and so forth. But I, I had seen, I had formed rather close community with, with few other Finny sports bettors who, who, who were specialised in the same leagues that I, so I, I was in a constant, uh. Communication with them. And I had seen what happened to them when they got family and that hard choices they had to make. [00:18:00] And, that made me think about my own situation as well. I've always been extremely, family oriented in the, in the sense that the, the people who are close to me, they are really close to me. It was rather clear that, that if I would have, want to have a normal family life, to see my kids grow, to actually spend some time with my wife as well, not, not only to, you know, her, to see me leaving now and now and now. So, it, it became obvious that I wouldn't be able to sustain. That that wouldn't work out. Also at the same time, I had been, I had been doing that for decade, decade and a half. And, I, I have lost passion [00:19:00] And I've, I've, been in a, I've been lucky enough to be able to, always able to do something for living that I'm extremely passionate about. So doing sports betting without. Passion about football, being skeptical about match fixing cases, which I got to see too many for, for my, like, for my liking and growing. So that made the decision much more easier. I, I had lost passion. And, also the, you know, the. Rational of us there. It was rather easy to see that I wouldn't be able, I, I would have to choose between family life and, you know, doing sports betting the way I, I had always done it, so in the end it was rather, rather easy choice, but it's, it's also something, the carrier switch, that's something I'm, I'm the most proud of. I mean, I had to, I was extremely good on what I did. I was one of the best, best, if not the best, sports bettor who was concentrated on the, on the Finnish leagues specifically, and then especially the, the, the lower leagues. So, switching from that position to unknown to unclarity, I, I had no, before I made the, made the, uh. [00:20:00] before I chose to switch carriers, I, I had no idea what's gonna happen with me in the future. And already at that point, I had a 3-year-old daughter and, and wife to, to, provide livelihood. And, my wife was actually pregnant with our second kid at that time. So that was, I mean, my mindset has always been that everything will work out as everything has always worked out with me. I, I just trusted that everything will work out as everything had always worked out with me. I had, I had a humble, humble, attitude about the law. I, I realised that I had zero days of, uh. Experience from practicing law and being, I, I was what, 36 year olds at that stage? So, I, I was hugely handicapped in the field of law against, you know, some of the older, older generation who had, you know, by, by the age of 25 who had already 10 years of, of experience of whatever. [00:21:00] But any, it, any, anyway, all, all worked out by the best. Leo Judkins: Great. And, and I bet, and we'll get to this story in a bit, but I bet your focus and your determination had everything to do with that, to catch up with the rest. So we'll talk about that in a bit. But I want to go back to something that you just said, Antti, There's many people that are stuck in their careers. You know, they feel maybe that they've lost passion, like exactly what you described, right? They've lost passion a little bit. They feel that it's unsustainable. There's stuff that's happened in their personal life that where circumstances have changed, right? You get kids or you get married, maybe you move, I dunno, whatever. There's. Circumstances that stay, change and you almost feel like you've got golden handcuffs on, right? Like you're stuck in a, in a career that you are making really good money in. for someone as analytical as you, right? [00:22:00] And somebody that really assesses those risks and thinks about, okay, what's the, what's the move here? Let, let's turn it around. What would you advise to somebody that is maybe stuck in that same position? Maybe not necessarily in sports betting, but in that same kind of circumstance, how would you go about analysing it and then taking action despite that feeling scary? Antti Koivula: obviously there is no, no solution that would suit all, all situations, but in general, I, I consider that, you know, life is too precious. We only have so many years to spend here and being un unhappy, stuck, stuck on, even, even if it's a well paid job, well respected job, the life is too short. I, I appreciate the fact that there are, I'm, I'm fortunate in the sense that everything has always worked out for me. [00:23:00] Even though I, I don't believe for luck, as you know, at all, people, people make their own luck, even though that might sound a bit of a cliche, but any, anyway, I. I would assess the situation by analysing how, how unhappy or happy i am in my current job, what the opportunities might be ahead and how, how that equation will, will work out. I mean, personally I would be at, I, I would, I prefer, doing something I, I really like to do over getting paid better for, for, for example, and, uh. And, and, and so forth. But there are, people in, in, in, in different situations. But analysing your, your specific situation is that's what it's all about. And money and, and, and all those matters shouldn't be the key value, key value there. Obviously money is important up to a point, but after, after that point, it becomes maybe, maybe less important than, you know, preference over other values. Could be, could be given more. Leo Judkins: [00:24:00] Yeah, because that's the other thing, right? If you would've continued in that direction, if you would've kept do doing the same, what would've been the consequence? How little would you have seen from your kids growing up, for example, or how, how happy would you have been in life Antti Koivula: I would be probably divorced. I, I wouldn't know more than my kids' names and it might be that I, I would be even broke. I mean, because. Especially when it comes to sports betting. I don't think anyone can do that without actually liking what they do, without being passionate about it. It's, it's something you leave, something you breed, you know, on, on, on the top level. And, as, as I mentioned, I had lost that passion. And when, when you lose passion and you just do sports betting for money, that's a equation for disaster. It just doesn't work out. You can, you can do that for, you know, certain period of time. [00:25:00] It might be years, it might be some something else, but anyway, it's not something that you can hold on by for, for forever. Leo Judkins: I agree. I, you know what, Antti, I think that's actually true in any high pressure career, right? I think any high pressure career where. The hours become too heavy because you've lost the passion. That's a recipe for burnout, and it might just be happening slowly. I think the problem is that most of us, it's like boiling a frog, right? That most of us to sit there and the water gets warmer and water warmer and warmer, and we don't realise that we're being boils. Well, maybe we realise it, but we never jump out because it's so scared to do that, to take that step. Antti Koivula: once again, if, if, if you can control the, the water, if, if, if you can decrease the water temperature or, do something, I don't know, suit yourself or. What, what, whatever do modifications to the situation, then it might be tolerable in the, in the long run as well. But if nothing is done, it's, it's a equation for disasters. [00:26:00] You know, you know, the situation will explode on your face sooner or later. And that's, that's something, I mean, I'm. I'm extremely analytical if that's not clear already at this point. And I think it would be really valuable for anyone in any position to assess their own happiness, their own behaviour, and their own life. Be their owns Freud, so to say, and, and, and, and, you know, understand what's going on. Not, not only on your mind, but around you and how it affects you and what can be done, what cannot be done, what are the options and, and all that. Leo Judkins: Hey Antti, then you moved into, so then you moved into law and you've taken that same analytical approach, that same focus, that same drive to that profession. I think it also goes to show that, I mean, you're very, very successful there. I, I think it also goes to show that the things that you're passionate about are far easier to grow. Right. Far easier to put the hours and the effort into, which is also a key message, I believe. [00:27:00]But take me through those first moments from kind of switching out of sports betting and then transit and then going onto LinkedIn for the first time, getting that message. Like, what, what did all of that look like? What did the, that period look like and what was your. And then we'll talk a little bit about the first day and your first, you know, like those first moments, Antti Koivula: For me personally, I'm, I'm really on, on slash off type of guy. I am all in, or, you know, I'm, I'm all out. It doesn't matter for me. And, when I switched all in, in, in, into law and especially when, when I, when I got that conduct and I, I got specialised in, in iGaming law, which, with which I was. familiar already to a certain extent, with, with the enforcement proceedings and, and, and, and all that. I, I, well, basically from day one when, when I got my current job or already some time before, before that, [00:28:00] I've been just, getting information. Constantly increasing the, the, my knowledge and, and, and what I know about this and that, how it's applied to practice and, and all that. There's always, the law is really fascinating in the sense, especially when, when it comes to the Finnish iGaming market, that in, in the past, past four years, there's been a constant change. I mean, there used to be a long, long period of stagnation with weight cause monopoly, and not that much happened. But it, it, well now, now they are liberalising the Morgan and lot's been happening, happening as we speak, but already few years before that, you know, there's constant development on the enforcement front for, for example, in, in, in, in other fronts as well. So it's. It's really great in the sense that, that there's always something to be learned. [00:29:00] It's always something to be improved and to be understood better. And by achieving higher level of understanding, it's easier to make more, accurate predictions of the future to see how things will unfold. In the, in the, in the future as well. But if you go, if it, if it take few steps back, you ask, asked me to provide you how I, you know, the, the feelings before getting, getting that contact from Minna in, in, in, in LinkedIn and all that. Well, basically by summer, was it 21? I believe I had already made the choice that I will. Switch carriers. I had taken my, master's degree or, you know, I had graduated from law school in, in the beginning of June and well, I made that decision to graduate the switch carriers early in 21 at latest. And, I, I was still doing sports betting, but I wasn't, I was, I wasn't devoting that much time to it anymore. [00:30:00] I was so to say, slowing down, but it was really hard to. Just jump off from something you've been doing so many hours per week. So I, I, I was taking time out, I was slowing down with sports betting and after, after I made the decision, let's say by summer, summer 21, I didn't take any more bets at all. And I was taking time off. I was, I was joining the time with my, my. Wife and a daughter back then, and, you know, really, really devoting myself for, for them and the, the family life. I had the intention to start looking for a job, maybe Yeah. By, by the end of that year or, or something like that. I, I made the decision not to do anything for at least six months. So, yeah, I, I was starting my batteries and, uh. And all that. And when, when, when, when I, when I made the, decision to actually start doing something as mentioned, I, I joined LinkedIn. It, it must have been November 21 or something, and I, I, I got contact from my current employer, Minna Ripatti, the same, same night. [00:31:00] So I was literally on LinkedIn less than 12 hours. Before, before I, I, I, I, I got that contact and I didn't have any, any followers or, you know, any, any connections or, or whatever. And, I hadn't sent any, any applications either. I, I, I hadn't done anything, but we got to talking and, yeah, that's, that's where everything started. Yeah. That's, that's so awesome, Antti, really fantastic. How, how were those first moments for you where you were saying. You know, you were obviously a bit older joining the profession later than all of them. most people had graduated. You felt a little bit behind with like zero experience. How was that for you? How, how were those first moments for you and how did you react based on that? I. Antti Koivula: [00:32:00] after my graduation, I mean, I'm, I'm extremely self aware. I, I realised that I, I, I was in a handicapped position with, with, uh. Younger graduates, graduates when it comes to, you know, normal positions when it comes to, you know, doing the, the normal stuff, people doing the, in their twenties, in, in, in, in their professional legal life and, and, and all that. And I also understood where my strengths are, you know, the, the high concentration skills and, and, and. Able to a, a able to see even the tiniest details and form the big picture from there. And, Antticipate what's, what's to come and, and, and all that. So, I, I, well, as, as mentioned, I never got to apply anywhere, but I wouldn't have applied in a positions from which, to which my strengths wouldn't have provided me. [00:33:00] You know, maybe not an advantage, but the handicap would've been smaller. So I didn't obviously. there was lots of question marks in the air. I had no, absolutely zero plans on how, you know, where, where I will work in the future and what I will do. But once again, life has proved to me again and again that if you really put your mind in something. As I've mentioned, I'm really on/off type of person and well, success will follow sooner or later, but I, I took a extremely humble approach and I, I was ready basically to accept anything that will suit my strengths. So not any position, per se, in any area of law, but basically any position in, in, in a company or in an area of law that will, you know, suit my strengths. [00:34:00] Yeah. So humble but quietly confident as we call it. Right. So, so backing yourself and pitching for what you know about always a really great way to succeed. So as you joined and as you are now in your current career, then Antti, what, what's the proudest moment you've had? What are some of the things you're most proud of? Antti Koivula: Well, definitely the career change. I mean, I, I don't know what could be more successful. I, I, I really personally appreciate that, that much more than I, I could ever, you know, o over any single achievements per se. I was able to. Come from a, a successful position of being, being a top sports better and making the decision based on family values based on prioritising, having, having time with my, my family and I was able to make a total suite to another career and being successful over there. That's, that's something I'm, I'm extremely proud of and I kind of think of. being, being possible to match that with anyone in the, with, with anything in the future either. [00:35:00]So it's that, that will with extremely high likelihood remain the, the, the highest achievement personally for me. You know, so someone else might consider that something else is, you know, of more value or whatever. But that's, that's what I personally value the most by far. Yeah, I love it. Really great success. I always love a good story. That works out really well. So thank you very much for sharing that, Antti. Your very last question, for anyone who's listening and is maybe struggling of backing themselves like you have, you are, you are quietly confident in your ability, not arrogant about it. You just know it will work because you will make it work out. Someone who's not that confident about what they could do, what, what do you feel that they could do to help them just become a little bit more confident in their ability to back themselves? Antti Koivula: in general, I would say that it's, it's not worth it overthinking it, it o overthinking [00:36:00] anything doesn't help. And also trying to overachieve it, it often o only leads to burnout or, you know, depression or, or, or so, so something similar. And that's, that's not helpful. That's, that's not good for anyone. When it comes to obtaining self-confidence, obviously it's important to know yourself first, know your strengths, know your weaknesses as well, and, work it from there. I, I'm not a psychologist, so I, I, I, don't have the, the basic tricks, how, how self-confidence is created or, or so forth, but I would say that from my perspective, knowing yourself, knowing your strengths, knowing your weaknesses, knowing what you can do and, and, and so forth, that's, that's the know, good starting point for, for any, any, anyone in that sense. yeah. Completely agree. [00:37:00] It's, sometimes difficult to find, but maybe we have to write down our successes. We recently had a public speaking coach inside our mastermind because most of us get nervous on stage, and he talked about it as writing down your successes and building a wall of confidence. And I think that's so important because those stories help you, perhaps through those moments where you are not as confident as perhaps you want to be. Antti Koivula: definitely. Practice when, when it comes to public speaking and all that, I mean, I'm, I'm sure you know all about it as, you know, in, in, in, in your position. But practice always helps as well. I mean, and, and when it comes to analysing, especially something that's too close to you, it, it really helps to, if you have to do it by yourself, it's really helps if you are writing something down. Positives, negatives, you know, at strengths, weaknesses, and, and all that. Its And if possible. It's always great to, know, get a help of an outsider. [00:38:00] It's always easier for an outsider to provide, you know, the fact that, hey, you are actually great on this, and that you should concentrate on that while it in, in, in the same person, own, own mind, that they might not, it, it might not be possible to see that close. You know, you know, to see, see those characteristics that are too close to you, I it t becomes too personal and, it's, it's not that easy to analyse yourself. So getting outside, outside help, outside analysing in, in that sense, that's extremely useful as well. Yeah, I always say we're inside of our own bottle and inside of our own bottle, we can't read the label. So love that perspective from an outside view. Really important. Antti, thank you very much for, coming on the podcast. Really loved having you here, and thank you for sharing your story. Antti Koivula: Thank you very much, Leo, for having me. Thank you for joining me on The iGaming Leader Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iGamingLeader.com for more conversations and insights. [00:39:00]Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week.