Shelley: [00:00:00] I was always. Like more than a programmer, I could never leave it at just understanding the code I had to, understand the business and, everything around it. I'd always be the one to write really clear documentation and, have a little bit more of the full picture in lines. For me, you know look up to other people and thinking, I'll never be like them. I'll never be as good as them. and then that results in, you know, oh, well, I gotta work harder to become exactly as good as them in the way that they, are, I've never have dreamed that would've had, you know, such a, a long and fruitful career with. relax itself also , the award on, on top of that. It is, If I told myself that five years ago, I'd be like, yeah, rubbish. Leo: [00:01:00] Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins and as an ex iGaming Director turned Performance Coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain, bet365, Flutter and many more to help them build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said, let's dive in. Leo: Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. I am here with Shelly Hannah, CPO at Relaxed Gaming Super interesting leadership journey. She's gone for 25 years from coding to CPO, very compelling story with which looks very successful from the outside with some really challenging times that she's had, on the inside. Off the back of that, all of that we'll go through today. Shell super excited to talk to you here today. Thank you for being on the podcast. Shelley: [00:02:00] You're welcome, Leo. It's always good to catch up with you. Leo: I wanted to start off with, with the start of your career. You've moved from, programmer, CPO, and, and, you know, that requires a really different skill sets, right? From where you started in your career to where you are today. can we start maybe with what some of the, some of the hardest transitions were for you in that, in that journey, some of the most difficult, changes that you had to make in your approach? Shelley: I mean, if we start out with my role as a programmer back many years ago, I, I was always. Like more than a programmer, I could never leave it at just understanding the code I had to, understand the business and, and everything around it. I'd always be the one to write really clear documentation, and, know, like have a little bit more of the full picture in lines. [00:03:00] So, you know. it was natural for me to move from, from that into project management type roles. And of course, managing developers as well. I, I've found it sort of a easy transition in that sense. I, I think what became more challenging, of course, was moving from, you know, like the transport industry, the insurance industry over Which, now, everyone says all industry has their challenges and it's, it is true. Right? It's really true. But, I think, there isn't one that's quite so fast moving, as our industry and, I, I. I actually find it really exciting to move The constant change. I think the first UKGC changes were out in my first couple of years, with autoplay and all that good stuff. [00:04:00] And, you know, it was really stressful. You can get operators, to communicate with what they were going to do or suppliers to, to be consistent with what they were going to do. and it, it was. was a fun challenge. I, I think in that sense, I, I. think for me to, to sort of get here, I probably took a couple of steps back as well. So, you know, I advanced myself within software development and then, chose to, to back into sort of quite basic project management and then quickly elevated myself from there. And I think it was a really good thing to do, especially in the move to the IGA industry, for me just to build up my confidence and get that breadth of knowledge before. My next step, which, which would eventually be, you know, head of deliveries and head of framework and, and then eventually, director casino products and, and CPO at Relax. Leo: [00:05:00] Yeah, I, I love it. I, I, I just love your entire trajectory. I mean, the business has grown from, from like something like 30 to 350 people, I think, while you were there. And then, of course, bought by Kindred when you, when you got promoted to, or got made, CPO, Simon Hammond. Ex CEO said that, you know, praise you for your exceptional leadership qualities. And then, recently you've also been awarded with Leader of the Year Award at, at the Women in Gaming. And I, you know, it just underlines your, your, you know, your qualities and, and the trajectory that you've been on that, like, especially that award and, and Simon saying that that must have meant so much for you. What, like, what's, what's, how do you, how do you look back on those, you know, those highlights? Shelley: [00:06:00] Yeah, I mean, suppose I, I, I tend to look at myself and go, well. People are being awfully nice at times and, and don't believe that that it, it's true. especially maybe the case a few years ago. and I, I feel quite humbled to, to have people say such things and, and also, you know, to, to receive an award Recently, it's still a bit surreal for me to be quite honest, Leo. but it, it meant. It meant a lot. It really did mean a lot to me. And, yeah, I, I had a wonderful time at the, the Women in Gaming Diversity Awards as well. it was a, a lovely, sincere event, I would say. Leo: Yeah. It's so diff I think it's true for most high achievers that we, that you brush over these, these big events you go over Well, I like a a I don't really know how to, how to deal with it, you know? And oh my God, I, I didn't even realize that that was happening. And it's because I think often it's because we set the bar so high for ourselves that you almost don't, I dunno. [00:07:00] You almost brush over it. And you, you've mentioned that you've got, like these really interesting mixed traits of, you know, being ambitious but also being a perfectionist, but also lacking confidence and caring too much about what others things. You know, that that whole cocktail must. Must have been so difficult in your transition into more of a leadership role and then than letting go. What, what were some of the biggest challenges you had with, you know, with delegating and letting go of that perfectionism in able to be able to, to actually get more done and, and, and lead your teams? Shelley: I think it's more common traits than than I ever realized. And I've actually, come to know that over the last year as I've got closer to, to a few individuals. But, you know, it's an inward battle. that's how I can describe it. Like, Shelley: You, matter how someone tells me you're doing grants, you're, you're doing well. You know, it's, it's still a. still looking up to that other person. Right. Shelley:[00:08:00] I think that's something I've learned in the last couple of years, being Irish. We were sort of taught to go into a doctor surgery and, you know, hello doctor and nearly bio down to the doctor. 'cause he's, he's, you know, really, really important man. And a lot of those traits sort of continue through. In your, your and your experiences. And, and for me, u know look up to other people and thinking, I'll never be like them. I'll never be as good as them. and, and then that results in, you know, oh, well, I gotta work harder to, to become exactly as good as them in the way that they, you know, are, are, know. an idol to me. maybe Leo: Yes. Shelley: The particular skills or whatever. and that I think is something that has come to, well, I've come to a realization over the last couple of, of years, [00:09:00] maybe year more so that, you know, we all have our different skills. and no matter how hard I might work to be, you know, a, a great public speaker, naturally a natural saleswoman, that is not my trait. That that's not what I'm good at. So if I could just spend a little bit more time focusing on what I am good at and, and contributing in that way, then then that's. Great. You know, it's, Shelley: Not a bad thing. I mean, if we were all the same, we'd be like robots, right? Shelley: So, so I think coming to that, learning that, you know, yes, it's lovely to, to have inspires in, in your network. People who inspire you, people who, you know, you look up to in, in different ways. But to obsess with that is, is a. A problem. And, and you need to, to Shelley: [00:10:00] Careful not to do so. you know, like the result of that becomes, you work harder, you keep going, you do 15 hour days, you do weekends, you go nonstop. I need to prove myself. I need to prove myself. And, you know, then you have no work life balance and, your dream of work. I mean, that's no change. I, I don't think I can stop that. when I was, a young coder, I dreamt of. Programming, and I think I made some of my best code actually during some of my dreams or sold some good bugs. but it's unhealthy, right? So Shelley: Try to, to get out of those things. you, you don't want these things to become an obsession and, you know, it's, it's also not good for others because when you get like that, you can come across quite, I don't know, not under confident, but. you know, you maybe don't say speak out when you should and, Shelley: [00:11:00] Know, and like that's something maybe I, I learned during my, my time when I joined Exec as an example in Relax where, you know, I should have spoken out more, but my, my confidence maybe stop that at, at, on occasions in the early days. so yeah, it's, it's a challenge, but you, you have to. You have to experience to learn, I think, and, and you learn to sort of deal with those personality traits that, don't then interfere with your work or in fact your own health because it's, it's that inner battle that that can cause, challenges in, in your head and, and your, your health and everything else. Leo: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Michelle. I think that's so true for so many people. let me ask you a really obvious question, though. Like, would you expect, would you have expected that you would've been here five years ago where you are today? Shelley: [00:12:00] Probably not actually. I mean, I, I think even five years ago I aspired to, to be a C level. But I, I think because I a bit of a, a gap in my career growth, maybe talk about that later. But, you know. felt that I had to be more patient on weight to get to a C-level role, and that that would take longer for me. so no, I think I've never have dreamed that would've had, you know, such a, a long and fruitful career with. With relax itself and also, the award on, on top of that. It is, yeah. If I told myself that five years ago, I'd be like, yeah, rubbish. Leo: [00:13:00] Yeah. I love it. I love it. And you know, I think the other thing that, that does, that confidence thing that you were saying where you sometimes don't speak up, I. It also kind of sometimes prevents you from putting your hand up and saying, look, I, this is the role knocking on doors as Sasha who I interviewed on the podcast a while back, knocking on doors. It prevents you from doing that. Right? Prevents you from saying that like, this is the position that I feel I, I should be in. And I think the other thing that you mentioned there, like working harder to prove that you belong because you perhaps feel that you don't belong there yet, or you look up to other people and you see all these traits that you don't yet have. Really can cause a lot of, a lot of difficulties. How, I mean, how did those thoughts affect you and, and, what did you do in your job to, you know, that that kind of sabotaged you, perhaps from, from, from your growth? Shelley: [00:14:00] Yeah, I mean, I, I think it is just back down to not trusting or having faith in my own ability or my own sort of reasons behind things or, you know, maybe even a little bit off the, if something goes wrong, a disaster. So it's still on my shoulders and, Shelley: It's, I never had a problem owning up to something going wrong, but I feel like I. I failed Shelley: and I think that's one of the thing I've, things I've learned, one of the things that relax as a company is really strong in like the, the blame game. Everyone's gonna make mistakes and little mistakes are absolutely fine. I. Shelley: there's no sort of pointing fingers or, yeah, it's me individually that tried to take that fully on my own shoulders to begin with. I, I, I feel a such a strong grip behind me that, you know, if things don't go quite right, that's okay. [00:15:00] Worked together to, to solve that and move forward. Leo: Yeah. Okay. Makes a lot of sense. It also kind of directly leads me to something else that you've said before, which is really close to my heart as well, is that you felt that, you know, that director role that you had was one of the lonely loneliest positions you've ever had. Not quite part of the exec team, no real peers to talk to, really in your silo. Certainly something I've experienced, and I think it's true for most people, that director, director roles are usually the most, the loneliest roles there are. Like, how did that, how did that, show up for you and, and how was it affecting you? Shelley: Yeah, I mean before that I was always in like a head off role or, or something similar. And I went to relax at first, I was the only person I think at the time that had the director title, which meant that, you know, you had the exec team and then you had me as director looking after obviously my amazing team and then, you know, other people around as well, but. [00:16:00] There was never an ability to have a team meeting with my peers. Shelley: Yes, but, you know, with, with my manager. But there was no, there just weren't peers to work with. And so, you know, I think that's how I, I built up such a, a strong, position with who work for me as well. you know, I, I, I was active at relaxing. Um. Ensuring that we had team meetings ensuring that during COVID we had chilled out Friday afternoons, you know, chitchat some drinks, just to, to feel that, that, you know, were together, were here as a team. So my team became, literally my team, Shelley: Worked for me as a manager and, and that, that I'd say, that's how I got around the loneliness. [00:17:00] As, as that. Group of people grew into their careers as well, and we started supporting each other. Leo: Yeah. Makes sense. And you, you talk like in all the interviews I've seen you or all publications, I always see you talking about your team and how important team is as part of the performance of the business. Right. There is essentially no business without, without forming team. we talked a little bit about how that, that perfectionism is really. Difficult when, when starting to manage a team. Like how did you, like, how did you move from feeling like you needed to control everything to trusting your team with bigger topics, especially when they're like, ultimately your end responsibility and your head is on the line? I, Shelley: Well, I think that's exactly it. when you come to the point of knowing that a few mistakes are okay, Shelley: You know, letting go a little bit on the, maybe not the, the giant things, but the, the smaller [00:18:00] things, you take a, a gradual transition there. I think it's, it, it's possible to, to let go. I mean, it took me probably a year to. Fully hand over, most things in, in, when I transitioned from role to role. but I, I was probably quite fortunate to have people who. Some people who were quite perfectionist as well, to be honest. and, and they, they in particular, like, probably had, the ambitious trait, the perfectionist trait, and maybe actually more confident. Than me Leo: As well Which was really nice. I mean, you know, some people say who, who do you look up to or who has inspired you in the industry? Shelley: I could name and I don't want to name them, outright today, Leo: because you miss people when you start saying names, right? Shelley: [00:19:00] that's it. That's it. But you know, I, I, those people know who they are. I'm sure, but you know, they are the ones that. You know, I today look up to, in Ways. so it doesn't have to be someone above you or someone as a peer. It can be someone on your team who you've watched grow during your time with them. And that for me is my passion. It's, you know, it's helping the team to grow and, and. Get through their career path and meet their ambitions as well. And that, that for me is what leadership's about. Obviously making a successful company, but also watching you know, them succeed and, and do really well. And yeah, it is Shelley: For me. It just becomes, yeah, natural. Leo: Yeah. Love that. Hey, I know a few of the people that you've had as, as bosses, right? As as managers. So Simon Hammond, of course, [00:20:00] CEO there, Ashley Lang at at adobo, right. so, both really inspiring people I find. Anyway. I dunno if hopefully you feel the same, Shelley: Absolutely. Leo: But what were, what, what were some of the things that you see in them that you. Or in other leaders that you've worked with, that you've taken on as traits that you've aspired to be more of, if you will. Shelley: yeah, I mean, Dennis, I guess at Adobo was, was one of the, guys that taught me, well, not taught me perfectionism, that's wrong. but he, he taught me, um. The importance of, of writing things very clearly and communicating clearly, and, whether that's your brand or internally in the company. [00:21:00] I think that was an important one. we also have, Simon, who, you know, that's, face it, he's this natural. Out there speaking to the world. and, and you know, I learned a lot from that. But you know, I think he did say to me one day, shell, right now it's for you to go out and do panels and things like that. you know, of course I was like, oh, I don't know if I can do that. but again, that's 'cause I was aspiring to be just like him. and I think, you know, all of us can go on panels and, and you know, we, we know our topics. We know our, our what, what we wanna say. So, you know, for me, maybe I'm, I'm just a bit more, less, prepared or, you know, at getting the words out as you can see right now. But, um. But, you know, I'm sincere and I, Shelley: I can be confident in what I wanna talk about, you know, and Been on two or three panels, which I remember being quite scared about in the last few years. And, you know, I realized that I can contribute to those just as much as anyone else can. And, you know, I, I think that really is important for people to know. [00:22:00] Like, stop looking up at people just 'cause they're on a podcast, they're on a panel. you can do it as well. Leo: Yeah. And I, I think also as you, as we get older, right? Not that we get older, you and I, but we like, as we get older, but you start leaning, you start leaning into it more, right? You start just kind of going, well, that's just the way I am, rather than trying to be something that you are perhaps not. Is, is, is that what you've experienced as well? Shelley: Absolutely. I mean, it, I've never gonna, I. Be sort of one to show off and, and, you know, love who I am or anything else, but I'm settled with it. I know I've worked hard. I know, what I want to talk about. I, I know, quite a, a breadth of areas in, in this industry now. so that makes me more confident if you told me to, to speak at. [00:23:00] Something, when I was three or four years into the industry, I, I don't think that would've maybe gone so well. but, I think now I've earned the, the years stripes to, be able to talk confidence in, in, with confidence in my subjects. Leo: Yeah. And you've earned your battle scars, right? You've, you've grown through it. So, I think that's another thing is that you, you kind of, you have your bumps and you have your challenges and you've seen it all. Right? what one of the, one of the things that I see you talk about a lot is this, fires, fires, fires. Right. The, the thing that we all struggle with, I think in gaming. We are constantly firefighting. There's always like these short-term deadlines, regulatory changes, team dramas. you know, it's just a super high pressure, fast-paced industry. [00:24:00] You said you've kind of, you enjoyed that right? As you transition from kind of transport into gaming that, that environment. So how, what, what have you? What have you learned from kind of being in that environment for such a long time? What, what are some of the things that you do differently today than perhaps when you first joined the industry? Shelley: Yeah, I mean the, the thing that I've learned is there will be fires, Many of them. and they'll all be a little different. Some will be bigger than others. some will cause extra, extra, extra hours of work to, to solve. but I think what I've learned now, especially from, you know, working under. people like, you know, Simon Martin, my boss now, and, many, many others. [00:25:00] Like, just keep calm. Just keep calm. Things will go wrong. it doesn't really matter what caused that or who caused that, per se, it's about, you know. keeping calm, looking at the problem, trying to solve it. And I, I think over time I realized I'm, I'm a not right problem solver, you know? Shelley: you just adapt to the new problem. There's a set of skills. You work out who to talk with, make sure you communicate well. Bring the teams together try not to take it all on your own shoulders, right? Even though it, it sort of feels like it is. I think, know, that's why we've got. Different areas of expertise, cross-functional teams and companies. Shelley: They're good at coding, or this one's good at, databases or whatever it happens to be. These are all the people that can support you in solving the problem. So my biggest thing is now, like if there's a fire, I, I just go, alright then. And I, it is, I'm not excited by it or anything, but I don't mind getting on top of it and solving it. Leo: [00:26:00] Yeah. Love that. I really love that. It's about embracing that, the, the inevitable anyway. Right. And, yeah. Okay. really, really, really good point, Cheryl. I, I, I think that's such a, such a great, great, great point. I, I, I'd like to talk a little bit about, uh. The biggest, probably the biggest challenge that you've been through. So you've had a, a really bad car accident, that caused a lot of trouble for you afterwards. Lots of mental struggles, physical issues. Can we, can you take us back there to what actually happened? and then we'll talk a little bit about how that's affected you afterwards. Shelley: [00:27:00] Sure. I mean, I, I was pretty young, I think, 25 or so at a high speed head on collision. So that's 60 mile an hour, 60 mile an hour. and that I had to drop my career, as it was. And I, I really struggled with chronic pain. Had a good few broken bones to go with it, but, I, I continued with chronic pain for, for. I would say a good nine to 10 years in, in a severe way after the car accident. and I think, you know, looking back at it, yes, some of those were the physical, uh. Outcomes of, of the accident, but also some of it was the, the mental effect that all of it had on me. And, you know, for, I never stopped trying in, in terms of work like, I, I didn't give up my career. [00:28:00] I just didn't go and continue my. My programming career as it was, you know, I, I a, a little bit in an IT department in a hospital for a while, and, then I set up my own company and as part of that, I, I taught people how to use computers. I did all the Adobe, training courses, exams, things like that there, and. I did, website design and, and things like that, so I was able to do that at my own pace, which was really cool. but you know, in the background of all that, I was, I don't know, I think I was struggling with the fact that. My life had stopped, or I Shelley: Had had sort of come to, to a standstill. cut a long story short 'cause I could talk some time in this. I, I was in a mental health hospital. I. towards the end of that 10 years. and, you know, I wasn't doing well. actually the cause of me being in there wasn't necessarily just my depression. [00:29:00] It was a mix of tablets that I was on at the time. but, you know, it doesn't matter today. I, I felt completely lost. I, I was 21 stone. which I should really convert into what the Shelley: Europe says, but you can work that out. and, you know, disgusted with myself, I didn't like the way I looked. I didn't like that I couldn't walk properly. I was on a crash. I didn't like that I couldn't do normal things that I sort of. late 20, early 30 year olds should be doing. and I think during that stay I was, you know, deter. I, I had a switch in my head. I, I, I don't know what started it, but the switch in my head said, right time to lose weight, time to fight this battle. which I did. [00:30:00] I think I, I was asked to be on the, the front of the Slimming World Magazine 'cause I had lost. many stone of weight in, in quite a short time. within the, the next year, I think I was down to, 16 stone, which was, pretty, bit for a year. from from there I took the plunge to, to go back to a normal career again. Back to the, the programming element of things. And, you know, I, I led a team over in England for a while. and then I had to go in for, another knee operation and that broke me. I couldn't commute anymore. well, it was so much pain and I got to the point where I just said, this up. and that, you know, that was a struggle. [00:31:00] There wasn't much in the way of finance to back me up to do that, but I decided health first and, that that was. The best thing I could ever have done actually. So, a few weeks after I gave that up, I, I sit in a house, in front of the fire, inches of snow outside. Going, oh, this pain is, it's really, really hurting me. And I, I don't like it, but do you know what? I'm gonna look on the computer and I'm gonna type in jobs in the sun and see what happens. 'cause I think the sun, well, I, I kind of knew from like the old holiday that the sun may help. and so within three weeks of typing that in, I was in Gibraltar. Started my first iGaming job, which was pretty amazing and I was scared to move, like it was a big [00:32:00] but it was, really, really amazing adventure and I haven't looked back. I've lived in Since. And, I'll continue to do so I think for the rest of my life. Leo: I highly recommend it. Yeah. shell, thank you for sharing that. what a story and I can't even imagine how that must have stayed with you mentally as well, going through your head all the time. And one of the things that you've mentioned before is how you were constantly worried about relapsing and going back and, how did that like have you, how's that? That sort of vulnerability affected you in how you approached work and how you perhaps even approached that move to Gibraltar? I mean, I'll, I'll skip straight to the, the work there for you, Leo. it still affects me to this day. There, there's still, I. Moments that I go, oh, where is my head right now? [00:33:00] To get outta this. Right? and it's, you've gotta fight it. You've gotta fight it. There's no, no person telling you you need to go to the gym and work out, right? Don't wanna listen when someone says to you, right, start the gym, you're gonna go, I don't really wanna do that. Shelley: When you, when you. being able to tell yourself to do this or, you know, sort of ask the questions to yourself. Well, why, why am I feeling like this? Why, why I, I need to change something? Then you, you, you sort of work your way through it, but that, that takes years of acknowledging the, the thoughts or the battle in your head to, to then, you know, sort of. Respond to yourself in the way that you, you need to, at the time that it happens. And know, like today it was very, very hot this morning. I don't think I can do the gym. It's too hot. you know, I had to fight myself through that. Like anyone out there, you know, mental [00:34:00] People don't talk about. I was embarrassed to, to tell any of my previous managers. least a good few years ago. Anyway, that had problems in this way because I thought it would stop me from progressing in my career. I thought it would, would just put, put me down as, as someone who, who wouldn't be able to cope. There'll be off sick, there'll be this, they'll be that. And, and actually I think the people that have gone through some of these things can be the strongest people you'll ever have on board. And. Shelley: Yeah. And, and I, I think since then, back to the leadership thing, the empathy I have with people and so many people throughout, you know, the, the last good few years have come up to me and said, look, shell, I'm struggling with, with mental health. [00:35:00] And it gives me that ability to understand and say, look, it's okay. Well, it's, it. Just think it's gonna be today, right? Today you need to cope with today. That's all. And, if work isn't 150% or a hundred, your normal 150% or a hundred percent even then that's okay for a day. is okay. know, be, be nice to yourself and, and pull yourself through that, but by just not taking all the pressure on your back as well. So, yeah, I think. things help us to to understand others. Leo: Love it. She, and here you are talking about it, right? Where years ago you wouldn't. And, I, I absolutely love that. that's amazing. It's, I think, I think you're so right. It's one of the things I love saying is that if you are, if you've only got 40% today. Then you given 40% is your 100% and that is absolutely okay. [00:36:00] The thing is that we all set these like extreme examples for, and we think that if it's not a hundred percent, it's not good enough. And I think that's a big cause of us going back down into this, you know, black hole that we often, that we can find ourselves in. one of the things you said there, I, I like, I really agree with you. It makes you so much, such a strong leader when you've experienced mental health challenges. It helps you recognize that, that in your teams, and I think being transparent about it as a leader, like, like you are also makes you far more approachable to everybody else. Like you've just given an example of, um. Like how, how has you acknowledging your journey and openly talking about it, how has that helped you in your leadership skills and, and with managing your teams and, and being more em emphatic around challenges that people might have? Shelley: [00:37:00] Yeah, I mean, I think it's just. Help me to, I think if I'm open about something, I feel quite myself then, right? I don't This big part of myself. So, you know, like if, if someone on my team is struggling with motivation, it doesn't have to be related to mental health, then I, I can kind of get that for a day. Like, yes, you're struggling with that, or you're struggling with the fires, or, or whatever. I think, I think these things just help you to, to understand and I, I think one of the biggest things that people that have gone through things like these with is, you know, when, when you go for a job and you think, I don't think I can do all of that job. so I'll never forget when, when Simon, brought me over to, to relax and he described the, the job and I remember going. Well, I'm not so, experienced in contracts. I mean, [00:38:00] I've done some IT contracts back in the day, but sure I can do part. And one of the biggest things that, that I learned is that you don't need to know everything. it's not necessary to know everything to, to move into a role. you, you need to have skills to pick it up, right? Shelley: Don't need to know it all. I think once I realized that, and once. You know, I, my, my own staff realized that I think it really helps you to, to break through. you pick it up, you learn, you get better at it. I, I dunno if I, I mentioned to you recently, maybe in our, our tech call before that, that kind had some tech issues. but, you know, I, I'm reading a diary of a CEO. Steve Bartlett, I think the the guy is, and you know, he said that growth happens when you start doing the things you know how to do. maybe that's not a, a direct, quote, but basically that, that you feel you can't do, challenge yourself and do them, is what I say. You can, you can do them. Leo: [00:39:00] Yeah. I love that. I think it's, that's such a, such a great, great insight. you know, with, with what Steven Bartlett says about just being outside of your comfort zone is there's this great quote, which is kind of similar, which is. All your growth happens outside of your comfort zone, right? It's inside of our comfort zone where all of our dreams go to die. And I think that's so true. We are just naturally wired to stay inside of our comfort zone and to not do the things that we know are actually good for us. So I, I absolutely agree with you that that's, that's true for the example you just gave about the gym, but also for it's okay to not know it. Everything in your new role Actually, it's expected that you don't know everything because it means that there's growth waiting for you to happen. Shelley: a hundred percent. Leo: When did you first learn that shell like that? It's important to kind of lean into [00:40:00] that discomfort perhaps. Of, of not necessarily knowing all of it. Instead of being anxious about not knowing it, actually leaning into it and going, okay, this is where growth actually starts. Shelley: I, I guess over time when I realized that these things that I thought I couldn't do, I could do in the end, When I put my mind to it. So, you know, I guess the way through our careers, I think that that's just one, one small example, but all the way through you'll always, find something new, right? You, you're never gonna do jobs that is exactly the same as a previous job. and I think you just. I have to understand that, that the skill isn't necessarily in knowing the exact thing, but it's in knowing how to tackle something new and how to pick it up and yeah, I mean, part of how I handled it, I don't really wanna say here, is probably putting so many extra hours in so that I got better at it. That's not. [00:41:00] The, the, the real way of doing it. But, but yeah, like take, taking a bit of extra time and, and keeping calm about it and not feeling overwhelmed is, is so important. You can do it. Shelley: Ask as well. It's okay to say, I'm not sure about this or this. Like, at Relax we had, I think one of the best legal teams I've worked with in a long time, and I remember speaking to. To Mika, when I started and I said, look, I do not know legalese at all. So when we're talking contracts, can, speak in in shell language instead? Shelley: That was our agreement from day one. And to be fair, we, we, we did, we, we continued a, a very good relationship through that. And, it's okay not to know, and it's okay to admit to colleagues that that's the case. Leo: Yeah, I, I love that. I think, you know what, I think putting in the hours is actually fine as long as it doesn't [00:42:00] compromise on your own health and wellbeing. You know, sometimes that's just, that's just the, the season that you are in, you know, it's, it becomes an issue when it actually is an issue and. one of the things you were talking about is how you would, you know, hardly sleep. You would work 18 hours and then in your sleep you'd still be coding, right? And you'd wake up and you'd dried things up and, really a very unhealthy balance. I think, you know, a lot of people struggle with that. a lot of people are actually there. They, they, they can't switch off. They have constant racing thoughts. They wake up at 3:00 AM. From your experience and having gone through the challenges that you have and having dealt with these things, you're still dealing with some of these things. What are, what are some of the, the habits or behaviors or steps that you take to help you find better balance between, you know, in switching off and, and having, having a, a private life as well outside of work? Shelley: [00:43:00] I think the first thing to keep in mind is your to-do list is never done. It will never be done. so, you know, it go back, goes back to the old school, prioritize, prioritize, prioritize. You know, it's focus on the right things. And I think you can become obsessed to, to get an a, a perfectionism in all areas and, and forget about the prioritization. So I think that's number one. I think number two, like what helped me a lot was having a notepad. beside the bed, so that when I did start thinking about something, I just write it down and leave it for the next day. you know, I, I am, I do have a trait that, is this all or nothing? So like, Heads in first or, you know, nothing at all. And I, I, I sometimes fear when I slow down that. I'll go to the nothing part too quickly, Keep going fast. and you know, I think in the [00:44:00] last year or so there, there's little things I've been doing like, getting a personal trainer in so that they'll be in their home at a certain time three days a week. And, and I've actually blanked out my calendar. I have had the confidence to say no in occasions to a meeting that would've overlapped with it. And prioritize that. it's important to do that for, for those elements to, you know, to focus on your health. a lot of why I pushed it was 'cause I had a fractured ankle and, problem with a ligament as well. So I, I knew that if I didn't do that, I would end up with years of problems with, with his fit and, also my, my weight. It. traveled back on again suddenly over the last few years too. So I was determined to sort that out. when you're in the depth of it, it's very hard, Leo to, to sort of notice. [00:45:00] I think as soon as you learn how to notice, when you're overdoing it and, and put life in perspective with, you know, compared to the job or, or the, the stress of the job, then when, when you. Can cope, you know, no company is worth, being over your, your health and wellbeing at end of day, Shelley: Important. And I, I did skip seeing a doctor, on occasion where it could have been a serious thing. No, I did eventually get round to booking it. I don't know within the year or so, but if, if that had been something. what was I doing? Put putting business and money above my own health. there was no point. And I, I think once you start to those mistakes, you start to rectify them or learn how to not, not go down that loophole again. Leo: Yeah, it's, and you're not gonna get sacked for, for visiting a doctor, you know? [00:46:00] Well, and if you, if you do, you should probably, you should have resigned in the first place. Shelley: that's it, but it's the pressure a lot of us put on ourselves, isn't, the pressure, like I I, Say to, many of my bosses actually, I know it's me doing it, you know, and I know I'm putting the pressure on You know, there's so many nice things. I'm doing well and all the rest, but I still have to work harder. You know, It's just. Be, be good to yourself and, and be a bit more light on yourself. Yes, putting in extra hours is fine, but I know many of the watchers are, have been, or, or maybe right now, are in the same position as me, and 15 hours a day and weekends is not okay. And you know, don't do that to yourself. No company expects it. None of the companies I worked for expected it. It's just the pressure that we, we put on ourselves. Leo: [00:47:00] Yeah. I love that. And I think, one of the key things that you've highlighted there is that often it's, it's like boiling a frog, right? We don't even realize the water's getting hotter and hotter, that we make these single small decisions, right? That seems small to us. Right. I'm gonna. Not call the doctor now, or I've, I'm gonna cancel the doctor because I've got this important meeting that I've got to go to. And, and then the next thing comes and the next thing come. And we don't realize, I think the sacrifices, the small sacrifices that we're making that are then adding up to be a massive sacrifice and really compromising our health. So that's gonna be my final question then. She, for anybody that perhaps feels that they might be, you know, not all the way. Knocked out and you know, down at rock bottom, but it's potentially feeling that something's off. You know that something isn't right. That perhaps if they continue in this way, things might not necessarily be sustainable. What is one small thing that they could do to help them change that trajectory? Shelley: [00:48:00] I mean, one, one big thing that I don't think I've mentioned yet is knowing that your colleagues or, or peers or whoever are probably going through it and having someone that you can talk about that with is so, so important. I'm lucky to, to have a husband to. Unfortunately for him, maybe has to listen to all my when I finish work. And, he's been incredibly supportive. but, you know, obviously being family and everything else, it's, it's, it's not necessarily the person that you listen to. He has said many times to me, you need to down. You need to, to sort of look after yourself. I think once he said to me, look, I'm really worried that you're. You know, massively about your health here. Shelley: [00:49:00] Kind of woke me up a a little bit. but in the last year or so, I, I've spoken with some like, people from other companies around iGaming and, I think the realization that it's not just you and being able to open up and talk about that with others is, is so, so important. Because they can probably put it into perspective more than you can. Leo: Yep. Love it. Chel, thank you very much for, your open openness and honesty. Super inspirational and, and, congratulations again on, on being recognized for all of the, all of the work that you've done and all the progress that you've made. I'm really proud of you. Really cool. Cool that you were here. Thank you. Shelley: Oh, it's a pleasure, Leo, and I've always, I, I think what you're doing now is, is really, really important. I really love the, the iGaming leader side of things, so keep going yourself. Proud. of you for that. Leo: Thank you. [00:50:00] Thank you for joining me on The iGaming Leader Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, head over to iGamingLeader.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. I'm your host, Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week.