[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the real talk with Zubi Podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: On today's episode, we are going to be having a very important conversation about a very important topic.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be talking about mental health, we're going to be talking about psychiatric drugs, and everything in our society, culture, and medicine around that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Today's guest is a board certified psychiatrist, and this is Joseph Wit Durin.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the show, Matt.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, thanks for having me here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Happy to have you here, bro.

[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, for my listeners who aren't familiar with you, your credentials, and what it is that you do, just please introduce yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: I will.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because every time I talk about this, there's no way this guy could actually be a mental health professional.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, so, in the medical school, and then I did a psychiatry residency.

[SPEAKER_01]: I then did a fellowship in psychiatric clinical trials at Janssen, which is the pharmaceutical branch of Johnson and Johnson.

[SPEAKER_01]: I then worked at the FDA as a medical officer reviewing the safety and effective visa psychiatric drugs for the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: market and then went to a couple other pharmaceutical companies before ultimately deciding I didn't believe in the way we're practicing psychiatry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually believe we're kind of in one of the biggest scams of the century with how we're using these medications.

[SPEAKER_01]: And since 2020, I've had a private practice called the type of clinic multi-state in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: for in 14 states, it's a team of 12 now and we essentially help people come off psychiatric medications.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, how common is the usage of psychiatric medication in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's massive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Over 20% of the population is taking a psychiatric medication on a daily basis.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say around 15% of, so 15% of Americans are taking an any-depressant.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's something that everyone knows someone on psychiatric medications either they themselves are taking it or someone in their immediate family or like close friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's at that common.

[SPEAKER_00]: How did it get up to 20% because just common sense [SPEAKER_00]: really, really high my traveler around the world a lot and I would not be shocked if that's possibly the highest in the world if not close to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how did get this bad?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think intuitively for a long time people when they, I'm going to talk about anxiety and depression because mental health can be kind of complicated.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have like bipolar and schizophrenia.

[SPEAKER_01]: But 80% of the visits.

[SPEAKER_01]: to our psychiatrists for depression and anxiety.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just focus on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: For a long time, people used to conceptualize these issues as understandable reactions to life, you know, relationship problems, problems at work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes even like health issues, and it's kind of like what your grandma would say to you, you know, and how she would think about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for the last three decades, we've had a big push [SPEAKER_01]: to reconceptualize mental health problems as brain problems and the analogy that they use is that when you're anxious or depressed, you have a chemical imbalance and it's like someone having type one diabetes who needs insulin and you should therefore take a drug.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this was kind of introduced under the, under sort of like a compassion excuse, saying, you know, it's a really good thing to talk about mental health problems, this medical problems, because there's a bunch of like guys out there who are going to feel ashamed to come forward and say, hey, I'm struggling right now, because they're going to, you know, they call it stigma, they're going to say, well, you know, that's, that's a moral failing, I'm a weak person, I shouldn't come forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they kind of introduced this white lie to say, well, it's good to talk about it in medical terms because it's going to make more people come forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you say they who's a pharmaceutical industry and like American psychiatric association essentially which is a professional guild that has an interest in people thinking positively about drugs and psychiatric treatments.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, while that is true that, you know, saying these things are, these problems are mainly medical problems, the kind of sinister underlying motive that I think a lot of people forget is that there's actually a really big commercial interest in promoting a version of looking at mental distress that it's biological.

[SPEAKER_01]: especially if you, you know, you're going to gain financially from it and that's what's happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've we've had an industry or billions of dollars into platforming certain speakers and promoting certain messages about, you know, mental health is these mental health problems that biological their common, you need to treat them with medications and anyone that says otherwise [SPEAKER_01]: is actually a dangerous person, you know, they're someone who's trying to scare people away from mental health issues and they should be silenced.

[SPEAKER_01]: They should face a professional retribution, they should have the medical license taken away.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so what's happened essentially is the public, especially in the US, which is the epicenter of like drug company marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've just been marinating in this soup.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's actually just been misleading them about the causes of mental illness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now everyone thinks they have these biochemical and balances and they need to be on the drugs.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Where did this concept of chemical imbalance come from?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I've heard that my entire life, even as a child struck me as never sort of past my BS detector.

[SPEAKER_00]: But where did that concept come from?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because it just gets repeated and repeated and repeated.

[SPEAKER_01]: Back in the 1950s, [SPEAKER_01]: researchers noticed that when they gave a drug court it brownies it to patients with tuberculosis it energize them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they discovered that the reason it did this was that it was boosting something called mononamines, which is essentially serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, because of that, they said, why don't we use these drugs and we give them to patients with depression and see if it helps.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it did, you know, it energize them.

[SPEAKER_01]: they had this kind of reverse logic where they said, well, maybe depression's actually a problem with like serotonin dopamine, norepinephrine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And and that was essentially the reasoning, the reasoning was the drugs work on this and so the drugs work on this and so the disease must be caused by deficiencies in in those monolamines.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's kind of [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't really make sense because I think for most people, they might just say, well, this is just a drug effect, you know, we're just giving someone something that is masking the symptoms.

[SPEAKER_01]: with the drug effect that it's causing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not a commercially popular message, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you have an agenda to kind of promote one version of reality, you're going to throw a lot of resources behind that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you might be thinking, well, [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of evidence is there that there even is as some kind of chemical imbalance there?

[SPEAKER_01]: And a really big meta analysis, sorry, a really big systematic review by Joanna Monkreef came out a couple of years ago where they reviewed all of the studies to look at this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, [SPEAKER_01]: For instance, they looked at depressed and non-depressed patients and they would remove cerebral spinal fluid by doing spinal tap and they'd say, you know, is there any difference in the metabolites of serotonin or any of these other chemicals?

[SPEAKER_01]: No difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: They would do autopsies on brains from people who would take their life from suicide, who would depressed and they would compare them to non-depressed brains.

[SPEAKER_01]: and there was no changes in the receptors when they did it that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they can also do brain scans now where they can actually look at the way the brain lights up when people are alive, you know, people who are depressed and non-depress and there's no difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: So every time we've tried to find like a biological way to differentiate depressed or anxious patients from, you know, quite unquote, normal people, we haven't been able to find a biological marker for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's just a lie.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as crazy because I mean something like a chemical imbalance if that's the case that should be quite easily provable by biological markers.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm no expert on anxiety to depression.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something I personally ever been through.

[SPEAKER_00]: But my understanding is that most diagnoses, there's a lot of self diagnosis going on, but even the real diagnoses, it seems to be more like a questionnaire.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's where that's what it is, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so this kind of thinking that, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that these these question has a scientific like to get diagnosed with depression.

[SPEAKER_01]: You need five out of nine symptoms on on a questionnaire, essentially.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we don't use lab tests, we don't use brain scans or anything like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then people sometimes think, well, you know, it's called major depressive disorder and there's these symptoms there.

[SPEAKER_01]: This must have some kind of logical underpinning about how they came up with these symptoms, like, you know, maybe we can, you know, they found something in the brain and and and it kind of routinely led to these nine symptoms and it's backed up in some way.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you look at the history of the DSM, these symptoms and these checklists, they were just voted on.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just got a bunch of people into a room and they were just like, hey guys, what do you think characterizes depression?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they would say, you know, sleep problems, anxiety, low mood, you know, lack of interest and you know, some other things, feelings of guilt, so subjective.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were just like, okay, so those are the symptoms.

[SPEAKER_01]: And okay, so what do you think we need to actually diagnose someone well, I think?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe five symptoms, you know, why not six?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, why not four?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, five seems about right.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like more than half.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that is the same with every psychiatric diagnosis in the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're really?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there are no objective.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what makes something a psychiatric diagnosis is that there's no like physical underpinning to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because as soon as something actually has a biological cause, it becomes neurology, you know, it becomes Parkinson's or hunting tones or multiple sclerosis.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we can see the lesion there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, now this is not to say that like I don't think there's any biological underpinnings in psychiatry like I think with things like schizophrenia and bipolar, we're probably going to find something eventually because to me, logically, it makes sense that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So even with those, yeah, there aren't, yeah, biological markers that we found.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's about, well, it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know that actually.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they're likely polygenic, which means it's controlled by [SPEAKER_01]: But to me, it makes sense that for some of these conditions, especially the serious ones that are really obvious to tell, like a schizophrenia or someone with bipolar, like there's got to be a reason why you know, you could get like 50 people and you could put an immense amount of stress on them, you know, 49 of them become anxious and depressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of them goes on to develop paranoia or mania or some of these extreme emotional states.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like to me, there must be some kind of biological underpinning for those.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But most of what we see these days, depression and anxiety, I don't think it's a chemical imbalance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually think it's just grounded in a lot of life stress as an actual, actually physical health problems as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for watching this video.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe to the channel for more full real talk with Zuby podcasts and clips.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's also a mementic component to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think particularly in the Western world, because it's similar in the UK, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how, I don't know if the anti-depressant usage is as high as it is in the US, but it's certainly very high, but it seems to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: the more conversations there are around mental health, anxiety and depression, the more people think that they have it, especially young people.

[SPEAKER_00]: It seems that at the extreme, I'm sure you've seen this, because you spend a lot of time online and on social media.

[SPEAKER_00]: At an extreme, there can be friend groups, particularly friend groups of young women or girls, where it becomes essentially a trend.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Where if you're just, [SPEAKER_00]: normal and you don't have anxiety or depression or PTSD or this or that, then it's almost like then there's something wrong with you then.

[SPEAKER_00]: These conversations go on where it's like to fit in or to sort of empathize with people.

[SPEAKER_00]: You almost have to [SPEAKER_00]: You know, people feel like they have to pretend that there's something wrong with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then in many cases, I mean, sounds like it's not too hard to get a diagnosis.

[SPEAKER_00]: But people are also just diagnosing themselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: People are taking just normal everyday feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I call it the, I call it pathologizing to human condition.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So before when I was a kid, someone would say they're sad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now that same kid of that age would say they're depressed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Someone would say that they're worried or they're concerned.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now people say I'm anxious or I have anxiety.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Before people would say, oh, I had a, I had a bad experience and, you know, I'm in a bit of a slump.

[SPEAKER_00]: But now that's PTSD, that's depression.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it seems like everything is the language of therapy and psychiatry has sort of crept into the everyday vocabulary to the point that I feel like a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_00]: think they have conditions that they don't and maybe, you know, through the power of the brain, that can even, you know, make people really believe that they do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so happy that you mentioned this and that you actually notice this going on because it's really disturbs me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the other example I can think of is like instead of being like quirky, you're now neurodivergent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, that's like the other one.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look, not to even intentionally push the podcast in this direction, but I mean, even just quirks and personality traits, you know, when people are like, oh, that's, you know, you're, you're a different gender, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You're in the wrong body before I, that girl used to be a tomboy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now it's like, oh, maybe she's actually a boy, trapped in.

[SPEAKER_00]: girl's body, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like at the extreme, it's like, oh, that's gender dysphoria now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, no, that's just someone's personality trait.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't mind you going in that direction, because I kind of, I see it kind of similarly.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the, like, the transgender issue and then also where it's like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there could be legitimate problems going on in your life, you know, some, some kind of issues that are making you feel like you aren't the right gender and you're uncomfortable in your body and then she go and then someone tells you, you know, you might be the wrong sex and you go, okay, that's great and with anxiety and depression and these issues like something's not going on going well in your life and then they say, well, maybe you have a chemical imbalance, but it's like, no, there's actually like legit things going on like if your life that you need to care about.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing is that we are such a lost society right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think a lot of people are lacking meaning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of social isolation going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so yes, you absolutely start getting these communities, which like bandy around things like mental health diagnosis and they, and there's like a weird social currency in a way.

[SPEAKER_01]: especially in the US, you know, there's like, like a pressure in politics here, and it's like if you're in a stigmatized group, especially in left-leaning media, a lot of the times, they will celebrate you and they'll say, you know, there's something, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: There's something really good about that and you know, you need to kind of band you together and fight and so people will find community in having like mental health disorders now and and and so yeah there's there's there's a whole thing going on there with TikTok where you have people like.

[SPEAKER_01]: Man, they have their drugs in their description.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they're just like, you know, I take Lexaproans all off, live life, Lexapro.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or I'm a, did you just say live life, Lexaproans?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've never actually been on TikTok ever intentionally, but I've seen so much from it, from being on other platforms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's what you'll do when you're going back to Dubai and you're kind of like sitting there.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can go tick-tock and you can search Hashtag LiveFloff, LexaPro, you can do Hashtag LexaHose as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can go Hashtag BuproperionBaddies.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's...

[SPEAKER_01]: uh...

you can go on like an at do you know etsy yeah yeah so you can go on etsy and you can get like live life lexapro like themed shirts as well like there is a whole cottage industry about like reinforcing that you're taking psychiatric medications i'm going to promote this to the world because in my community this is like a [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is like a, you know, this is like cool, you know, I'm like, you know, I suffer from mental health problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm mysterious.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's something kind of and oppressed in some way.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a complexity to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: China is loving this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in my dark moments, sometimes I'm like, are they pushing this out in the algorithm?

[SPEAKER_01]: They're trying to make people gender-confused, they're trying to make everyone think that they have mental health problems.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so...

What a good way to destroy a generation?

[SPEAKER_01]: It could be happening, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, but they are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, let's actually ask you some questions that are sort of basics, because we throw these terms around anxiety, depression, [SPEAKER_00]: What, from a psychiatric professional perspective, what is the actual definition of depression, and then you can do anxiety as well?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's that five out of nine symptoms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, and then anxiety is the same, you know, there's like a list of symptoms and if you have a certain number of them, then you can do anxiety.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know the list off the top of your head?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or most of it at least?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it would be things like anxious, room inating thoughts, muscle tension, [SPEAKER_01]: I can sum the, is a common symptom as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we could probably pull it up and on those, it'd be really easy to throw it on the screen and editing, but like it's just DSM criteria, generalized anxiety disorder.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, DSM criteria, major depressive disorder.

[SPEAKER_01]: Given that one's called major, is there minor depressive disorder?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that a thing?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, they're just called major.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just major.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just major depressive disorder.

[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is whole like weird semantic confusion thing happening here, which I think is worth mentioning.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, like, because people just say, oh, I'm depressed, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that used to mean, like, I'm just like sad.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now when people say it, it's like, oh, I'm depressed with a capital D.

It's like a medical condition.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I have depression.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have depression, like I have this thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, as if it maps on to some biological thing, but all it means is yeah, you have five out of nine symptoms on this bunch of on this list that a bunch of people voted on.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's so interesting because depending on your current mood and what's going on in your life at any given time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm the most happy optimistic depression, proof person, the might exist out there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would [SPEAKER_00]: With my own subjective reasoning, I could argue that I have many of those points.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean difficulty sleeping.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I could do that one.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ruminating thoughts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot, muscle tension, 100%.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the other ones are, but I mean, it seems like a lot of interest in things that you know, I'm really interested in, feelings of sales, feelings of hopelessness.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, I mean, sometimes, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I can, you know, you know, why I could be feeling that on Wednesday because something happens in my life or you know, something just really bums me out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know you have a cold right now so you might be feeling a bit of fatigue, which is another one of those symptoms.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yeah, I mean, [SPEAKER_00]: It just seems like crazily easy to, is it really that easy to get a diagnosis?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there no, are there no guardrails?

[SPEAKER_01]: It is so easy, and this is one of the things that I wage war against in my work is that the majority of men of psychiatric medications are dished out by family medicine doctors in 15 minute visits.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, a lot of the times when they're just like, they will give a patient a question and air to fill out in the waiting room and then I'll come in and I'll say, okay, you've got depression.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, would you like to take psychiatric medication?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, now the, there's this, I hope I don't lose you here, but because, but there is an important point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, like, [SPEAKER_01]: People talk, yeah, people talk about depression as if it's this mental illness, this problem which is an explanation in and of itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I have depression, I have this issue.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it really is just a symptom.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a symptom coming from something else.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you kind of, when you're just like, I have major depressive disorders, like I just have this medical problem, people stop asking questions and this is why it's, [SPEAKER_01]: So dangerous how these diagnoses are given out because the doctor goes, okay, major depressive to sort of, okay, that's legit, you know, we've got and then they give this medication, but the kind of care that you would want for like anyone that you loved, I don't know, do you have kids who be?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah, yeah, like think about like you kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: You would want someone to spend time with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: You'd be like, what's going on in your life?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, how are your relationships?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how are you doing in school?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, to tell me about, like, your diet and like, are you moving your body?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you getting out in the sun and are you doing things?

[SPEAKER_01]: None of that happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: So.

[SPEAKER_01]: like it's just diagnosed of this checklist.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they say, okay, well, we have an SSRI.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's approved by the FDA.

[SPEAKER_01]: They say it's safe and effective.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then so they'll give them a medication knowing that it's kind of been blessed by the FDA and they say it's safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is totally normal standard medical care in the US, in the UK, in Australia, and in most developed countries.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it has become set up like that because it is incredibly efficient for doctors.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's this like one, like it's easier for a family medicine doctor to help that person.

[SPEAKER_01]: by just saying, okay, you're depressed based on this checklist and we have a drug for that, then taking the time to get to know them.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not an economically viable way to do things.

[SPEAKER_01]: You make half as much money.

[SPEAKER_01]: at least in the US and I think it's in the UK based on the way we do insurance reimbursements.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get paid more per unit of time if you're just churning people out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you see like four people in an hour, that's worth more than seeing one person in and out, obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they get this really transactional care.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes the doctor more money.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes the and the hospital more money and they have a central company and it makes the pharmaceutical companies more money.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's such an obvious perverse incentive there and it's sort of boggles my mind that more people don't see that and at least question it, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't necessarily mean that the entire or thing is a scam or that zero percent of people should ever take any of these things, but it's so obviously over prescribed just intuitively just my common sense looking around the world at different places.

[SPEAKER_00]: looking at history compared to now, I mean, these numbers just keep rising.

[SPEAKER_00]: They keep increasing as life gets more comfortable as it gets easier to survive as you look at countries that actually have more wealthy populations and less real struggles for survival.

[SPEAKER_00]: The rates of these things are shooting up, whereas, again, because it's so much as self-diagnosed, it's not like there are many diseases or conditions where they're just very objective standards and measurements.

[SPEAKER_00]: But with something like this, it just becomes so subjective.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, if 20 percent of the population is on some type of daily, not just what's the term psychiatric [SPEAKER_00]: That's, I don't know, like I don't see how everyone can't just see that there's, that's obviously an over-prescription.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it doesn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't make sense that one in five people needs to be taking something just to quote unquote feel normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, um, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, 20% of the population isn't walking around with broken brains, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, how could that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the, like we've had, and there's some, there's some stats on this as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that since the early 90s, the use of SSRI has increased fivefold.

[SPEAKER_01]: we have more psychiatric disability than ever before.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have more people who are anxious and depressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have higher rates of suicide and higher rates of teen suicide.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not only as it over prescribed, it's just not working at a population level and I would implore people who are listening to this right now and I'll see to yourself to just be like, [SPEAKER_01]: Intuitively go back to the way your grandma would have reasoned about this and it's like how could that ever work like if you have people who are anxious and depressed like for legit reasons and you're the way you treated is to like mask it with a drug and not actually help them with the problem like [SPEAKER_01]: How could that ever be like a good solution for helping the mental health of a country?

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't just sweep shit onto the rug, you actually have to like address it and fix it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is where that whole like chemical imbalance lie, you know, just got so entrenched and became so powerful because if you think of so many other areas of life, it's very obvious and intuitive to people that you have to get to the root of the problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, if someone, I don't know, if someone were having problems in their relationship or their marriage, and you said, oh, just avoid, just avoid conversations.

[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, even physically, just stay away from each other, and you won't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone would be like, well, that's horrible advice.

[SPEAKER_00]: If someone had a gunshot, and you're like, just take this very strong pain killer.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, just take the pain and we're not going to address the wound, right, like as you're hurting because you're much as I know, no, no, no, no, we'll just address the pain, like that would obviously be medical malpractice in any in any other situation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just think people would know, okay, you have to you have to look at the root and get to what is causing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't just deal with the symptoms and try to like numb it or avoid it, but as my understanding is how to lots of these medications work.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's essentially numbing people's emotional range so that instead of operating within this full window, the window is now narrowed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so sure, yeah, you're not going to feel as low, you're probably not going to feel as high either during good times.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then, of course, even common sense would tell me someone's going to develop a type of resistance because people develop resistances to like everything, the same reason, you know, smokers or drinkers need to keep [SPEAKER_00]: The same thing's gonna happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your body's gonna be like, okay, this dose is no longer doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: It happens with caffeine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it happens with everything and so I mean another reason why the chemical imbalance has been such a popular myth is because it's it's [SPEAKER_01]: because it's good PR, because if you would say to people, hey, like taking these drugs, like they're just drugs, you know, and they mask your symptoms and there's, and some people will experience that is therapeutic.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's bad PR, because all of a sudden people will associate it with what you said, the fact that these drugs were off over time, which is totally true.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I noticed when I was in my clinical practice and I was going through my residency.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, [SPEAKER_01]: You don't just put someone on five milligrams of lexapro which is the starting dose and they like just sail off into the distance and they're fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that person is back in like six months and they're like, it's not doing anything anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's who you've got to ten.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then within like two years, they're maxed out on the dose and they're having side effects, but it's not really effective anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you add another drug on and.

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, the doctors aren't telling people like, hey, you know, your brain has just adapted to it because like our body wants to maintain homeostasis.

[SPEAKER_01]: It wants to stay in balance.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't like being chemically altered.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't say that and say, you know, this is the end result.

[SPEAKER_01]: They say, oh, you know, you're treatment resistant or you're depression is evolving in some other condition.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they give them another drug.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why you end up in a situation where [SPEAKER_01]: people are on like five different drugs.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're still like massively psychiatricly disabled.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they getting worse?

[SPEAKER_01]: And, and I think it's really intuitive to see that if you're just like, yeah, what else could be the outcome of just using drugs which the body pushes against?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is this here's a question.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I have my theories on this, but like, why is this controversial?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why are these, why are so few doctors in your field saying this?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why are people afraid to have this conversation and bring up this discussion?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, somebody I found with, [SPEAKER_00]: Depression especially is like People like cling to people like cling to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a sort of a comfort blanket for a lot of people, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they want to they identify with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's the best way to do it, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just you I would think that [SPEAKER_00]: if I felt depressed or I thought I had depression and someone was trying to convince me that like I actually don't have a chemical imbalance and actually I can overcome this without the need outside drugs and I could change things into my lifestyle that would make me better.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would think that that would be good news to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it seems that for many people, whether they themselves consider themselves depressed or maybe they know they're close to someone who is or something like, people are so sensitive.

[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes even quite aggressive about maintaining no, absolutely I have this thing, it's like they don't wanna [SPEAKER_00]: let go of it or even entertain other modes of thinking that aren't just, okay, you've just got this and therefore you need to take this thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think is going on there?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is this particular topic so difficult for so many people to just discuss and hash out?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a lot of [SPEAKER_01]: having like a brain illness like being able to say, you know, this is the problem, this is the reason you're having these problems is a lot easier to swallow for a lot of people than like the real issues going on in their life.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's and I know that probably sounds insensitive, but like.

[SPEAKER_01]: People are suffering from real issues.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I mean, they may be really struggling with social isolation.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know how to talk to people.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know how to interact with people.

[SPEAKER_01]: They may be in terrible relationships.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they have no idea how they're going to get out and they're afraid of being alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: They may be...

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they might have gone to school for the wrong thing and they're doing a terrible job and they can't get out of it now because they they have to support themselves or they're in debt.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's you can have like your life can be a shit show.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you could have like terrible, terrible metabolic health and insulin resistance and obesity and all of these other things going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know in your bio you say coach and so I imagine you've coached people before, like a really great coach or a helper is able to break a complicated problem down into like little steps that like a person can handle so they can build up some confidence over time.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't do that for our patients with depression and anxiety.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the help that they have available to them is a family doctor who has 15 minutes, maybe a psychologist that could get them in like once every couple of months or something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So no one is even there to like show them a way out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you're sitting there, [SPEAKER_01]: and your life is in pieces and you don't really know kind of how to start putting it back together and no one is helping you do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of comfort in being like [SPEAKER_01]: It's my brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really have agency over this because I don't even know which way to go with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But but I'd love to hear your thoughts as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know you said you had kind of a hunch about why it would be so hard to to wrestle that I think it's the same reason that people latch on to and get protective over different forms of victim mentality.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there are people who want to believe that we live, and there are women who would like to believe that we live in an oppressive patriarchy and men are out to get them and it's women have to tend times harder to be a woman than to be a man and the whole of society and culture set up against you.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are black people or other minorities who would like to believe we live in a white supremacist system and there's institutional and structural and systemic racism.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so much easier to be a white man.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard to be a black man or a black woman.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everything's against you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Second tier citizen, so on and so forth.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are people regardless, different demographics have different narratives.

[SPEAKER_00]: And something I find quite remarkable about the modern west is no matter what demographic you fit into, there's actually an impression narrative for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a reason a lot of people like the whole oppression Olympics and I'm a victim thing is it gives them what I call a permanent alibi.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm a black man.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I were to go with this left wing narrative of systemic racism and white supremacy and so on, [SPEAKER_00]: anything that goes wrong in my life, anything that I personally fail at.

[SPEAKER_00]: Any mistake, I'm not, I now have a permanent alibi.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm no longer culpable.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can always fall back on, and I'm sure you've seen people do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can always fall back on, but well, it's just tough to be a black man.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's so hard to get the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's out to get me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not me, it's the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think there are many, many different forms of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the Depression one is actually quite a universal one.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if I said that I have depression, I have this thing called depression or anxiety or mental health issues or whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm no longer, I can no longer be fully held responsible and accountable for my decisions.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I treat someone badly, if I try something and I fail, if I'm just a jerk to people, if I'm being lazy, if I stop taking care of my health or I stop to, right, I can always fall back on [SPEAKER_00]: If I don't want to go to work one day and I'm just going to give it, I can always fall back on, you have it, I'm depressed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And people will sympathize, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: People aren't going to be like, because it seems insensitive to be like, come on, bro, like, you know, get up, go to the gym, go to work, like, you know, do things, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, but no, no, he has depression, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so to me, this is like a very widespread version of that for many, many people.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't even think it's like intentional.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think people are sort of [SPEAKER_00]: But I just think that it's very natural for look that one of the most core human traits and we all do this, even people are very disciplined and conscientious, we all [SPEAKER_00]: like to put the blame on something outside of ourselves, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's literally like pretty much the first story in the Bible.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's think of a common, let's think of an example that I'll use, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have, I've got some meeting or something I'm supposed to be, I'm supposed to be there at 2 p.m.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just coming from my house, and I don't know, I get there 20 minutes late.

[SPEAKER_00]: No one says, you know what?

[SPEAKER_00]: I was a bit disorganized and I left too late.

[SPEAKER_00]: No one says that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Say, there's a lot of traffic.

[SPEAKER_00]: We all know like, had you actually planned really, really properly, you could have gotten there on time, but it's traffic.

[SPEAKER_00]: And everyone understands, that was traffic.

[SPEAKER_00]: But he probably knew there was gonna be traffic right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So we all do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's always that.

[SPEAKER_00]: desire to point outside one's the economy.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the political climate.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's this.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's that like, why ever you can't get at someone's obese, not a lot of people are going to be like, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just need too much and don't move enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: No one says that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's all well, you know, the pharmaceutical companies and the food companies and the advertising companies and the time and this and this and we all empathize with that because it's not totally false.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of truth there.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like, well, ultimately it's still on you, like you're a grown man, you're a grown woman, like you're the one still controlling.

[SPEAKER_00]: What's going in your mouth and sure there are outside influences and there's all sorts of things in our society and our culture that do make it more difficult to stay in shape or do make it more difficult to maintain a healthy body weight or do make it more difficult to just be psychologically happy let's say but ultimately in my world view it ultimately falls down on on the individual and are there things that should be changed in the system to use that term to make it easier for people to flourish.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm all for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a lot easier to change an individual's behavior than it is to change the whole system or the whole nation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're talking about multiple nations.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in some of these conversations.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's that's kind of my thinking, but I think that's why people are very sensitive and kind of.

[SPEAKER_00]: cling on to this because they don't want to let go of that permanent and convenient alibi and as you've already said in certain social circles and demographics you get social cloud for it you get points you get virtue points for it if you are just happy and healthy and online you don't buy into any of these narratives right like i've got videos [SPEAKER_00]: with a million views on YouTube of me being like, yeah, why privileges in real people like what?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you hate yourself as a black man?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, we're right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think white people are advantageous to over me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that means I hate myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you should be happy to hear.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you want me to believe that narrative?

[SPEAKER_00]: If you want me to believe that everywhere I go, whether in the UK, the US, like everywhere I go, white people have some type of privilege or advantage over me just sort of inherently in the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't believe that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've never believed that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think a few decades ago that would have been super controversial.

[SPEAKER_00]: But now it's like, no, no, you must buy into this narrative.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't, you're a heretic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, and so you asked like a moment ago, why isn't this so obvious like when we're talking about this like drug this drugging of like life problems away and like why that's why that's wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's you know, it's the when you have like.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, I mean, there is this whole impression of the pixel thing going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: It definitely is a left-leaning narrative where that discourse is just shut down.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that makes it really bad in psychiatry is that the pharmaceutical industry is involved.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like a clear commercial interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I'm out there, or when Mark Horowitz is out there, or any of the other prominent psychiatry critics, [SPEAKER_01]: We are stigmatizing people, we are dangerous.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're scaring people away from life-saving medications.

[SPEAKER_01]: People are going to commit suicide because of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I mean, that's why people aren't waking up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm getting throttled on YouTube, you know, when I talk about these topics.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's because it's like, like, mainstream media I want to talk about it, they're just, like, anyone that criticizes this narrative and says, actually, hey, guys, you have agency.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can fix your life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, things are actually gonna work out a lot better for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you, you know, wrestle control back of, wrestle your life back from the family medicine doctor, who sees you 15 minutes every three months.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you ask, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care of this, myself, you, you're a prick, you're insensitive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so people don't realize we're battling against almost like a political party, but also just like a juggernaut of marketing, that is just coming from the drug companies, that is just really just pushing this narrative that's holding people back.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like a horrific sinister, like there's a sinister part of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: because it gets people essentially just trapped on drugs that they take for the rest of their lives, believing they have no control to fix things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's fascinating.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I look at the last decade in particular, across the West, I certainly notice, I often pay attention to like, who gets attacked?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Who sort of gets attacked by the machine and by the mainstream media?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man.

[SPEAKER_00]: And sort of what's the throughline?

[SPEAKER_00]: And something I've picked up on, regardless of the individual, [SPEAKER_00]: really push for accountability and personal responsibility in any field.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is like the message that gets demonized.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's like, no, no, we need to shut that down.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not people who are saying things that are genuinely hateful or they're calling for violence or any of those type of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like people who, I mean, if you want to see them go back a few years ago, look at how the mainstream media treat even like a Jordan Peterson.

[SPEAKER_00]: What's his core message home?

[SPEAKER_00]: Stand up straight with your shoulders back.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, clean your room, clean your room, take, take, take, take wrist or responsibility, carry a load, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's a message of responsibility.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you see the level of attack and demonization in your trying to make this guy out that he's, you know, he's a Nazi, he's an everything foe, he's an all the isms, all the skin.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like his core message is like what you're granddad.

[SPEAKER_00]: word or you're responsible dad would have essentially told you he's just doing it on YouTube and on podcasts.

[SPEAKER_00]: You look at the way they try to, you know, take out a Joe Rogan, you know, people who are like, yeah, personal responsibility, accountability, and also just free exchange of ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Charlie Cook because of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Literally like three days ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you know, the core message comes down to, you know, responsibility, accountability, [SPEAKER_00]: not just, you know, what was me?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a victim.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't do anything, you know, we need to overturn every single.

[SPEAKER_01]: I used to be, um, I used to be liberal.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that is kind of how I grew off.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: My condolences.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have many liberal friends that I've never been more.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm radicalized is what I was going to say when I came to the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I arrived here in 2015.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is like the year before from Sydney, Sydney, Australia, Liberal Parents, lovely, lovely people.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this was the year before Trump became president.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I got, I got to be here through the Republican, the Democratic primaries and got to see all of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this was, [SPEAKER_01]: Right when like the woke stuff really hit like fever pitch 2015 yeah nothing has like it could radicalize me more like I remember feeling disgusted with the democratic party because all of a sudden it was yeah you know you mentioned it before a pressure Olympics it's like we're going you know you know you know why men are bad you know you know all of the [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love Jordan Peterson and when he came in and all of a sudden, I'm like, this party isn't mine, even though I am, I would say I'm sent to right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I actually still have a lot of more left-lefty ideas, but [SPEAKER_01]: no way, you know, I, there's something just gross and disgusting about building a party around victimhood and pandering to a base about saying, hey, guys, you know, you have victims and you're oppressed and we are so sorry, like, for what's happened to you and there's no, and it's just like blaming others.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was just disgusting to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that was the thing that kind of like pushed me over.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's how it's just like, I guess I'm, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: conservative and people think I'm you know I think and you know the interest the other interesting thing is like as soon as you kind of fear from that like super work message like immediately your friends think you're like far right, you know is how to get character rights like there's no like middle ground as soon as you kind of like be it from that like [SPEAKER_00]: your super ultra mega mega, it's very interesting the politicization of things that really shouldn't be political as well, you're looking at until five minutes ago, RFK Jr.

[SPEAKER_00]: was a Democrat for his entire life.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's a Kennedy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And his whole thing, make America healthy again.

[SPEAKER_00]: Compared to all the countries in the world, we have a ridiculous amount of process foods and weird artificial dyes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's all these things that are banned in Europe and banned in Australia, which we allow in our foods and the pharmaceutical industries, big farmers out of control and so on.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you just see some people's response [SPEAKER_00]: to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this shouldn't even be a political thing, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: They shouldn't be left and right in terms of like health in terms of nutrition in terms of exercise.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've seen these articles in the Guardian, another place is about how you know fitness and strength training, you know, makes people farer is associated.

[SPEAKER_00]: The dangerous connection between bodybuilding and the farer right.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is [SPEAKER_00]: what is going on here like shouldn't everyone be on board with make America healthy again maybe you don't like the slogan but like the concept of it you have huge levels of obesity and diabetes and metabolic health issues and you know childhood obesity's flight.

[SPEAKER_00]: Decades go none of these things were big problems and they are now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is everyone suddenly got autoimmune conditions and all these kids have peanut allergies which didn't used to exist and all of these things and [SPEAKER_00]: get to the bottom of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to look at some of these industries, some of these lobbies, and we want to get, and you have people who are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, like, we're now against you because of this political, this political brainwart, which is like forcing everyone to see things as everything's left or right.

[SPEAKER_01]: like it's this weird binary people don't see it and this so stupid like I I look at it on just like this is this is ridiculous that I mean we I don't know did you see the exchange between Elizabeth Warren and then Bobby like the other day actually I actually haven't though yeah so they're talking about [SPEAKER_01]: They're talking about vaccines and she was like, well, you promised you wouldn't take the vaccines away from people.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's talking about the COVID vaccines and how they they changed the coverage for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was just like, we did the research and we found that they weren't effective and she just freaked out about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, and he was like, do you want me to give these drugs out to people that our own scientists say don't work?

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, but you promised to not take them away, you know, and it's [SPEAKER_01]: It is, it's, people don't care about like actual rationality anymore or the science, like it has totally become political.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the fact that he wants to look at the, you know, we're going to throw it all now.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that he wants to look at the vaccines.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry for your YouTube channel.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the fact that he wants to look at the vaccines and the fact that there's no, there's no placebo controls and they want to have another look at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why is that so controversial?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, why don't we want to have good quality evidence about these things, but you know, the people are just radicalized and then they're just like anything that he does is bad, because I watched CNN in New York Times and they say he's bad and so he's bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very weird.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think of the situations where anti-depressant or anti-psychiatric drugs are useful or when would it be valid and helpful to prescribe those?

[SPEAKER_01]: So originally, like, when I went into psychiatry, I was thinking, like, hey, we're we're mostly going to be helping people with like relationships work health and in some sparing situations, we would use the drugs when we can't get people better with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I go into my training and I don't see that at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were just pretty much nuking everyone with the drugs after a really short period of time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so my criteria is that you should [SPEAKER_01]: only get on one of these medications if someone's looked at your relationships and they've helped you there.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've looked at like purpose and work for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've got you've got your metabolic health dialed in, you're moving your body, you're getting enough sunlight.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not using, you're not abusing drugs in alcohol.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like those are the big four.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if people worked on these four things like 95% of people wouldn't need to be on psychiatric drugs.

[SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: If you do all of those things and you're still feeling really unwell, maybe there is something that we haven't found yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is affecting you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you should not take medications then.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you should use the science that we have.

[SPEAKER_01]: You should use the drugs.

[SPEAKER_01]: You should be aware of the side effects and the risks.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm very much in the camp of like you use them when all other non-drug, um, [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to just, yeah, have been trialled, but that sounds like so logical and I imagine you could hear that and be like isn't that happening like right now it's not it doesn't doesn't happen at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think part of it as well is that.

[SPEAKER_00]: One of my biggest criticisms of the way the modern western world deals with health is how siloed.

[SPEAKER_00]: It all is.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just not holistic.

[SPEAKER_00]: So physical health, I mean, you can even break that down into like very, very specific parts of the body, but physical health, mental health, spiritual health, [SPEAKER_00]: another controversial term, they're entirely separated, they're entirely different fields with different professionals that don't talk to each other, people don't even draw the connection between them.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, as someone who's been going to the gym for like 25 years, [SPEAKER_00]: I've even, you know, on my social media or whatever, I've put out things essentially alluding to the fact that, like, if you get your, if you exercise regularly, if you lift weights, if you eat decent food, it's going to be like very effective for your mental well-being.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember, you know, during early 2020, one of my massive criticisms about the lockdowns beyond the, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, civil rights violations and the loss of liberty was, you know, telling people not to go outside, filming, being not to go to the gym, you know, shut, shut down the, you know, close down the gyms.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't go outside.

[SPEAKER_00]: All, I was like, wait, if this is a health thing, then this is all, obviously backwards me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't go outside.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't get sunlight.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, it all seems really backwards to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's this compartmentalization where, like, like, [SPEAKER_00]: think it's weird that if I say, if someone's depressed and I'm like, yeah, you know, they should go to the gym and lift some weights.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are people who think like I'm being glib or that I'm just like, there's no, is it what are you even talking about?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's no connection there whatsoever.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, if you can't even see the connection between exercise and mood and mental well-being, like you're already so lost.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like even just on a very micro scale, [SPEAKER_00]: We all know even on a day-to-day basis, especially if you've been inside all days and just artificial light and you've just been sitting at a desk or whatever, you're just going for a 20-minute walk outside.

[SPEAKER_00]: It feels good.

[SPEAKER_00]: It improves your mood.

[SPEAKER_00]: You think a bit more creatively.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you've got a writer's block or something and you go for a little walk, it can help everyone knows, you go for a run.

[SPEAKER_00]: You lift some weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: You do any kind of exercise, play football, ten, it's whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: You get that endorphin rush.

[SPEAKER_00]: You feel good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like this is totally disconnected in so many people's brains from the mental part, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So people say, oh, we need to talk more about mental health, we need to talk more about mental health.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, not in isolation.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you talk about it in an isolation, you're missing a huge percentage of the picture, because as human beings, [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we're literally interconnected.

[SPEAKER_00]: My brain's not outside.

[SPEAKER_00]: My body.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's all connected.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is thing called like the neck.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very literally connected to the rest.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, mental health, I mean, it's physical health, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you poison your body with, you know, you're just eating like so many refined carbohydrates that you become insulin resistant, like your brain is not getting energy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's harder to bring glucose into the brain cells.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you are going to feel terrible.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: like moving and exercising has all of these amazing anti-inflammatory properties as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're just eating like shit processed food and you like never move your body, you're going to be inflamed and you're going to have like brain fog as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, and, you know, usually the people that like throw that hate on you when you say those things, they are like not exercising, you know, they're not eating clean, you know, they're not really working on their life.

[SPEAKER_00]: I generally don't find that I tend to get hate for that, but more like confusion.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like no, like people haven't even thought of maybe the way I'm feeling mentally and my mood is connected to my physical condition and my physical behaviors.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it has an even see what I mean, like they think of them as completely separate.

[SPEAKER_00]: categories in the way that I don't know, um, like no subject is totally disconnected, but you know, the way physics and history show are disconnected, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's it's not holistic, and then the concept of like spiritual health as well, and you could even talk, you know, you could obviously talk about relational health, you could go granular and talk about, you know, financial health, all of these things, but they all [SPEAKER_00]: They all have an impact.

[SPEAKER_00]: They all have an impact.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're all stressors.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're all stressors, and generally our mood is, I like to think my moods are telling my mood is telling me something.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm feeling angry, there's a reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm feeling sad, there's a reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm feeling sad consistently, that's a clear sign.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, there's something in my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: that I need to sort out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, this could be temporary.

[SPEAKER_00]: It could be, it could be very obvious.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a loved one passes away.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you probably should feel, quote unquote.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and this is why like that idea of like the chemical and balance is so pervasive and dangerous, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you might feel like kind of foggy and restless and not good.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone has just told you your brain is malfunctioning, you're not going to say, think like, well, maybe it has to do with the fact that I had like three cups of coffee and I'm tuned to back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and I've just like sat into our room.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: As a sleep, I've just sitting in my room behind my computer.

[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't gotten up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like move, move my body at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, it's just my chemical imbalance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need, you know, give me another five of Lexa Pro thanks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What are SSRs?

[SPEAKER_01]: So there are, so selective serotonin, re-optake inhibitors, they essentially go into the brain and they block the re-optake of serotonin from the space between the neurons.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's kind of like the point where the drugs work.

[SPEAKER_01]: They [SPEAKER_01]: So the neurons communicate to each other through like chemical messages, which are like serotonin.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you use an SSRI, it's going to block the re-optake, and it like increases the amount of serotonin between the neurons.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what gives it the drug effect.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And how widely used to those?

[SPEAKER_01]: The other most common class of any depressants, I'd say probably like 10% of the US population is probably taking NSSRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really know what that means.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know the mechanisms.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's, well, I don't know, I don't know the correlation versus causation there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously for someone to do something that heinous, there's something mentally.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's up with them, so sure there might be a correlation that they're on some type of drug.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I also am aware, even from watching TV in the USA and seeing your insane pharmaceutical ads, [SPEAKER_00]: When they're given all the potential side effects of things that can happen, often, you know, things like homosodalitis issues, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a bit like, oh, wait, wait, what is going on here?

[SPEAKER_00]: So balls in New York court, can you explain this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, so this is another one of these things that [SPEAKER_01]: People think is really controversial, and it shouldn't be.

[SPEAKER_01]: When we're talking about violence on psychiatric medications, we are talking about paradoxical reactions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so these are rare side effects.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the way I like to explain it is, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are some, like, quirks about people's brains that make them have unpredictable reactions to drugs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you could have like 10 people sitting around, smoking joints, nine people are laughing, they're giggling, they have in a great time.

[SPEAKER_01]: One person's becoming paranoid and they hate it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the same thing happens with SSRIs.

[SPEAKER_01]: So generally the effect of this drug is one of mood construction or numbing as some people will say, and that can be experienced as really therapeutic for some people, even lifesaving.

[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes people will have paradoxical reactions on these medications, and it will make them aggressive, it will make them hostile, and it can even make them more suicidal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so if we focus on the mass shootings, let's kind of talk about that relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: People are usually surprised to hear this.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you just look at the drug labels in the USA, like they are filled with warnings about violent behavior, like the, like, through Adderall and Riddle in, there's a whole section in the warnings and precautions about like aggression and hostility.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you look at the SSRI, it clearly says it can make some people more.

[SPEAKER_01]: irritable hostile and suicidal.

[SPEAKER_01]: You look at any psychotics like a billify.

[SPEAKER_01]: It like lists homicidal ideation as an adverse reaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that means that all of these things have been seen before.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so [SPEAKER_01]: The next question people say, well, you know, yeah, maybe, you know, these are side effects, but can they actually lead to mass acts of violence and most people surprise when I tell them that yes, you know, it's happened before and so there was, I mean, and it's happened numerous times and it has gone into the court system there was a really.

[SPEAKER_01]: notorious case from the 90s about a gentleman called Don Shell, and he was a guy in Wyoming, and he had been exposed to Fluoxetane, which was pro-sac before, and he became agitated on it, and his doctor took him off it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he went and saw another doctor a few years later, and they put him on Paxel.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is just like Fluoxetane, it's an SSRI, same drug class.

[SPEAKER_01]: And within a week and so he never should have been put on it before again because he had already had that bad reaction, but he gets put on it and within a week he kills his wife, he kills his daughter and he shoots his granddaughter dead as well and then he kills himself and so.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the sun at the surviving sun and law ends up suing Smith Klein, which went on to become GSK over failure to one and this goes through a jury trial and they find the drug manufacturer liable for failure to one.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that is a mass shooting and a suicide right there where the jury has found that if not for the drug like, like [SPEAKER_01]: Don Shell wouldn't have killed his entire family and then himself and so They appealed it and the the verdict stood I mean there was also another case called the Joseph Westbacker case and this was I think this was in Louisville, Kentucky [SPEAKER_01]: And he went into, I think it was a paper mill with a gun shortly after a very similar circumstances had a bad reaction to an SSRI was re-exposed when he shouldn't have been and he carried out a mass shooting there and he killed several people.

[SPEAKER_01]: and it was actually secretly settled out of court and they tried to hide it because it was the first case and that was going to kind of hang a shadow over all the ones that were coming afterwards.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Eli Lilly ended up kind of settling it behind the scenes and they're pretending that they didn't do it and so I mean you can read into the culpability there that that went to [SPEAKER_01]: The issue in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: is we don't look at this right now, like whenever there is a mass shooting and the person is on psychiatric meds or they're on all these like these hormones, that's been another big thing lately.

[SPEAKER_01]: People have been worried about all of the the trans gender violence going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't we don't look at it at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to sit here and tell you that all of the mass shootings are because of psychiatric medications.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's clearly social contagion going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have a lot of guns in this country.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the reason my with someone becomes manic or psychotic on on on the stroke.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty easy to grab a gun.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and so it's a complicated issue.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you have to you have to look at the role these are playing because it it actually leads to real changes that can help people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what would those real changes be?

[SPEAKER_01]: When you get put on a psychiatric medication, it would be a great thing if you had a family member there with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you could say, hey, we're putting, you know, we're putting Zubi on a medication right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: in really rare instances, it might actually make him worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you think he's uncharacteristically becoming more depressed or maybe he's even looking kind of agitated, can you call me straight away because I'd want to see him and I'd want to stop, I don't want to stop that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Doctors would actually start doing proper and formed consent about this, they don't talk about these risks with patients frequently.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't legally have to.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming.

[SPEAKER_01]: Informed consent in the US is just like, [SPEAKER_01]: You can like the doctor's can just claim that they've done it before, like there's no, you don't have to sign anything like the experience of getting the experience of getting an SSRI is typically this you go and see the doctor go you have depression, you know, here's this all off, hey doc, what side effects do I need to worry about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you could get some nausea.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could get, you know, a bit of an upset tummy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes people feel a little bit irritable like in the first couple days, but otherwise they say, hey, if anything happens, just give me a call.

[SPEAKER_01]: You then go into the CVS or the Walgreens, which is a big box of retellers for the meds.

[SPEAKER_01]: They, [SPEAKER_01]: Slide a keypad towards you.

[SPEAKER_01]: People usually don't realize what they're signing on that keypad, but it says you've been given a chance to talk to the pharmacist about the side effects of the medications.

[SPEAKER_01]: You just, most people think it's just like a credit card thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they give you the drug.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so no one's really going through all of the side effects.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'd love to talk with you in depth about some of the other ones outside of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: No one's really going through the side effects with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if anything ever happens, the doctor says, yeah, yeah, discuss the side effects with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And no one can really prove it as you sound.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, because, I mean, you did side saying you had the chance to talk to the pharmacist and then they just take the doctor's word for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, listen, these are 15 minute visits.

[SPEAKER_01]: It could take me 15 minutes just to go over the side effects, like, over medication to give someone proper informed consent.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, [SPEAKER_01]: There is a, you know, coming back to the mass shootings, there is a change in the US now where, I mean, bill leave from the state of Tennessee, thankfully passed with bipartisan support at the state level that they're going to investigate the role of psychotropic drugs in mass shootings now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because most people, they want to sweep this under the rug, like, because if you could imagine that you're like the surviving family member of someone that just like killed a bunch of people in your town, [SPEAKER_01]: You are not going to say, hey, maybe it was the drug, you know, the like backlash that you would get from that, they might think like, hey, you're trying to make an excuse for what's happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I also think there is a tremendous amount of pressure that when these things happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: people don't want to ask questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: They want to move on from it like as quickly as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the government actually needs to look into that and hold the line and say, no, we have to ask these questions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you know the answer to this question, but do you know the...

[SPEAKER_00]: My brain is puzzled as to what the mechanism could be that there is a tablet that someone could take that makes them start ruminating on homicide or suicide like yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What's the mechanism that [SPEAKER_00]: even causes that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it seems quite, it seems very left-field.

[SPEAKER_00]: It seems very strange that, I don't know, you could give, yeah, you could give someone to pill and suddenly they start thinking on those things because I don't, I don't get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it can happen in a few different ways and well, maybe I'll start with like the more extreme ones and I'll kind of go down to more subtle.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so at the extreme end, you could just become really paranoid, and so there was a case of a guy called David Carmichael, and he, that rings up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's a Canadian guy never had any history of violence, really loving guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: He got put on, I think it was also Paxle's nasty drug that's a really bad SSRI.

[SPEAKER_01]: He became psychotic and he started to believe his son who had a seizure disorder was going to die and was like having going to have all of these problems.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so he actually killed his son by accident when he was in a drug and juice psychosis.

[SPEAKER_01]: So at the file level, you can have, you can start to develop these psychotic ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: My son is going to die.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be really terrible.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's more compassionate for me to put him out of his misery.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that just like something chemical change that happens in the brain and it's just not firing correctly?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, full on psychosis, think delirium, like you're just not even like in the right mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that, um, fact it into his trial.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he, he didn't go to prison.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like he, he, I think he was in a a psych hospital for a year, a couple of years afterwards, but he ended up being released because everyone looked at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there was like, there's no way this guy did this on purpose.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you just look at the time cause, when he got on the medication, like, you, you can see that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so full on [SPEAKER_01]: Other things that can happen on these medications is something called, and I'm kind of veering into suicide a little bit here as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Leading cause of death amongst men in my country.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, there's something called Acathesia and this is a state where if you take a medication, you can become incredibly anxious and restless and people will start to pace around the place.

[SPEAKER_01]: They start to say things like, I want to tear my skin off.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to get out of my body.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're so uncomfortable and people will jump in front of trains because of this has happened to someone called Stuart Dolan a few years ago in a state of Acathesia through himself in front of a [SPEAKER_01]: suicidal to that level before.

[SPEAKER_01]: And some people will even impulsively commit acts of violence towards someone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Imagine being in such an agitated uncomfortable state and then someone says something to you that rubbed you the wrong way.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can react in a way that's completely out of context.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the last mechanism, I think of when I think of drug and juice violence and suicide is emotional blunting.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of like the effect of the medication.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some people are inhibited from doing terrible things like suicidal violence because of the ramifications of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: They think about their families.

[SPEAKER_01]: They think about the impact it would leave on their children or their loved ones.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that fear, if you start to blunt that, if you put someone on a like a heavily blunting drug, they don't care about that anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it can also lower inhibitions and can make people do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's the way I see violence and suicide happening with these drugs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, that's really useful.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was something you said that you wanted to talk about side effects.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I strongly believe that a lot of people would not take SSRI type medications if they actually knew the risks.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so one of the risks, which has been made really well known by the PSSD network, they actually put me in touch with you, shout out to Daniel, for doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: He, it's a problem called post SSRI sexual dysfunction.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so most people who get put on SSRI's develop sexual dysfunction, it's like 70% and so this is [SPEAKER_01]: You know, muted orgasms, you know, erectile dysfunction, just overall lower libido and lack of interest in sex.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of that constellation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Makes sense if it does everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we tell people that it's going to go away when they come off the medication.

[SPEAKER_01]: Many people will accept that as a as a trade off.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm really suffering at the moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to take the hit and I just know that it's going to come back later on.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for some people, it doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that is obviously horrifying.

[SPEAKER_01]: And...

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you were like, would you take a drug, if you were like a kid, a young man, and they said, hey, Zubi, there is a chance that you could develop permanent sexual dysfunction that does not go away afterwards.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like 99% of people would say, fuck no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Unless it was like literally a life-saving thing, unless it's like a life-a-death decision.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, [SPEAKER_01]: I tell this to people and they go, this is crazy, you're like a nutter, like there's no way this is a side effect because, you know, we have, you know, 15% of our country on any depressing medications.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I tell them, this isn't the warning and precaution of like every single SSRI and SNRI in the European Union.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the second biggest drug regulator in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the labels and Australia.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the labels and Canada.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the labels and Hong Kong.

[SPEAKER_01]: and currently right now it's being considered to go in the labels in the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this condition can be so bad, like not only do they get sexual dysfunction, many people will end up with severe emotional blunting.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they describe it like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like, when I go and hug my kid or like my parents, like I feel nothing, when I listen to like my favorite song from childhood, and I expect to have this like prickle, and you know, there's this kind of like prickle in the back of my neck, this kind of rush, I don't feel it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They feel dead inside, and they also have cognitive impairment, and you've essentially given this person a brain injury and a brain injury that for many of them is permanent.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is one of the biggest scandals in psychiatry right now, how we're giving people these medications and not wanting them about this this uncommon but very serious side effect.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a chemical lobotomy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you wouldn't believe like like I talked to two guys on my podcast who after this happened to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are heterosexual guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: They started a question their sexuality as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really, like it really messed them up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a whole other tension.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to talk about like the role of these drugs and sexuality, but that's.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's fascinating.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I want to expand the conversation a bit and kind of go up a level.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we've touched on this a little bit here and there, but what do you think is going on in modern society, particularly modern U.S.

[SPEAKER_00]: society?

[SPEAKER_00]: that is causing these spikes in real or perceived depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the numbers are, they're just going up, just going up and up, particularly a bunch of young people, young women in particular, in fact, seem to be having the highest rise in all these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know it coincides with smartphones for sure, so that's a factor, but just what's happening in this wonderful and prosperous and privileged country on so many levels that so many millions of Americans.

[SPEAKER_00]: are even getting to the stage of feeling like, oh, you know, I think I need to take some sort of drug, because we can even expand this conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if we go beyond psychiatric medication, I mean, what if we add the amount of people who are using alcohol or other drugs?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why people so unhappy?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, yeah, just to numb, numb their feeling.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you were to include those, you'd probably be at least half the population or approaching it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what's going on?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, I come back to my framework where it's like, it's relationships, it's meaning, and then it's also health.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so let's talk about, I mean, we've got a breakdown in religious communities and congregations.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we have, [SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot of social isolation going on now, especially with the internet.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think people are more disconnected than ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much easier to sit at home and just like flick on Netflix than it is too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, like sit on your stoop and Brooklyn and you know, like kind of like you're with your neighbors and your community.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's so comfortable to not have those.

[SPEAKER_01]: social interactions anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that that is a big piece of what's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I see it in my own life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've moved like six times in the last seven years, like for work and trying to get set up in different places.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's taken a toll of my wife.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's taken a toll on me as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we used to be grounded in these communities and we'd have our parents around and our friends and we'd be having our kids and like our friends would be having kids and we'd be all together.

[SPEAKER_01]: We wouldn't be like patching things together.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're also like a really mobile community now that really puts a massive emphasis on work.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to mention economic problems and inflation in the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people are raising kids with both parents working and they're hardly making ends mean.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's, you know, people are in debt.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're having a hard time affording homes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't spend as much time with your kids and be like fully present.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is that is objectively harder than it used to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a big pressure there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do think meaningful work is important, but I actually don't think it's as important as those other ones, like, relationship and that kind of security, because I know a lot of people with jobs that they don't like, but they're just lovely, happy people, they're just like, this is just kind of like, I just do this to make money and I'm with my family.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you can live a really meaningful life, and that's just kind of like you try it off there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the things, the other thing that really messes people up, it's their physical health.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the fact that we, you know, 60 to 70% of our calories come from processed foods.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are biologically unhealthy, like we are, like our mitochondria are shot to paces.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you just feel shitty all the time, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's hard to want to do things and then you stack that on top of a lot of what we've been talking about is these are these really disempowering messages that we get from the media that you're a victim.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's because of some other group in society and you need to and you need to fight against them rather than like, hey, you're powerful and you can do this and you can pull yourself out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've bundled it, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're very observant guy, you know, like you've touched on the vast majority of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, on top of this, I think there's a layer of talking about root problems is is uncomfortable and is not politically correct.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the problems exist, but then people also shy away from diagnosing the problems properly [SPEAKER_00]: God and faith and religion, people get weird, as soon as you start to talk about the rate of broken families and people are going up with, you know, divorce being so common in single mother households, highest rate in the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: So many kids growing up in fractured families, as soon as you start to talk about obesity and health and people being too fat and not exercising enough like, oh, he's very, all these are very like, oh, tread, tread, very carefully topic.

[SPEAKER_00]: So people just, [SPEAKER_00]: people just dodge it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I always say that if you can't talk about a problem, then you certainly can't certainly aren't going to find a solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, I think people need to be more courageous and bold and just be willing to put the cards on the table and have all of these conversations.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, all the things you said, it's like fundamentally, we've moved so far away from the way that human beings have always lived.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there are benefits to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much surplus.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much comfort.

[SPEAKER_00]: Day to day, like in terms of basic survival, basic survival has never been easier than it is now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, something interesting with obesity is you'll find that people blame it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Obesity, like people blame obesity on both poverty and affluence.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they both kind of make sense in a way.

[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, it's not it's not just lack.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we just have so much life is so easy.

[SPEAKER_00]: How many steps are people even taking everything to do?

[SPEAKER_00]: Most people even walk up to one mile a day, especially in the US, just driving everywhere, everything to drive through all the food.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, even coming from the UK to the US, like my mind is always blown.

[SPEAKER_00]: by just like the sheer amount of fast food and garbage food just everywhere and nobody walks anywhere and you know it's the even the way the cities are designed.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think like a lot of progress is what I put in.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're victims of our own progress in many ways, in many ways, but everything is just so artificial and fake and people are so removed from the things that keep people grounded and joyful and sane and then you add in new technologies that accelerate the disconnection, they don't connect people more.

[SPEAKER_00]: They [SPEAKER_00]: Separate and disconnect people even more.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you just have these as you've said layers upon layers upon layers of stuff that the thing is if to be a healthy individual in the USA You can't do the norm.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, if you do the norm if you do what is considered normal you do what majority people are doing you will end up overweight [SPEAKER_00]: you will end up in debt, you will end up like you have to go against the grain.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you just go back, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: maybe 70, 80, however many years ago, if you did what most people did, you'd be all right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you do what most people do, you won't.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's been economic progress, and I'm sure GDP is higher than ever or whatever, but if you actually look at health, you look at life, you look at family, you look at faith, you look at community, you look at how people are actually like dealing and how connected they are and how healthy they are.

[SPEAKER_00]: um it's actually severely declined.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's been progress in one sense and there's been massive regress in other areas.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even need to go back that far.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could go back to the 90s.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could go back to the 80s.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could go back to the 70s and you can see by certain measures, oh yeah, things are much better.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then by certain other measures, you're like whoa, we're way [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I mean, we go, oh, America.

[SPEAKER_01]: Number one, GDP, look at how good we're doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, if I think there's like some metric out there, like some kind of like happiness metric, or I mean, just use the rate of suicides.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're not doing great.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you look at like the incidence of suicide in the US compared to, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, some of these slavic countries that seem to do, that seems to do a lot better.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you mean, again, Scandinavian, Scandinavian, yeah, that that have much high quality of life over there.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's very interesting as an Australian, like I always grew up with people kind of [SPEAKER_01]: Complaining about like America like we it's like a nice past time.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just like we sort of complain about America and the capitalism and then when you get here people just like oh my god There's like lefty brids and all those socialists over there in Europe, but you I mean I was just over there and um [SPEAKER_01]: I was in Helsinki and you got to give the devil it's due like when when you look at the way they structure these cities over there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh man, the public amenities are incredible.

[SPEAKER_01]: I spent some time in Hungary at like the baths there and you take your vehicle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they're amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like it's like a [SPEAKER_01]: a really cheap like water park where you can hang out all day it's it's super fun everything's walkable like the public parks are amazing um it's it's just a city that's just like built to be live and friendly and human friendly and I lived in Houston for four years and that place was a show [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, I've been doing all these cities.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I know exactly what you're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you've got to drive.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember sitting there in the middle of the summer just being like, I can't even go outside.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there wasn't even like a great, like, they had a like a Hungarian bath in Houston or something like that, like it would bring people together.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you're totally right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we don't emphasize like livability in the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: We emphasize profitability.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, that's like, you probably spend some time on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: You probably see in the rise of like the homestead, like influencer, like ballerina farms.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a really big one.

[SPEAKER_01]: She lives like right down the road from me in Utah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm actually heading in that direction myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like when I like kind of lie down and bad and I'm talking to my wife at the end of the day, you know the things that I'm thinking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I don't want to have a virtual practice exclusively.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want something in person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want something on 50 acres.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want us to be able to grow some food.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want us to be able to be there with my staff.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like as I love my staff, but we're a virtual team and everyone's like, you know, remote work is like the greatest thing ever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yo, so overrated, like I love being now now that I'm living it I have to like go back.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be in person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want my family to be there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want them to be around my staff I want to feel like I'm on a mission with like all of these people and we're helping people fix their mental health and come off medications And we're just like you know going for a walk in the middle of the day together like I'm going back in time, you know, and that's and and because I I [SPEAKER_01]: I'm struggling, like I've been living it like this, these American problems and I love this country.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love the opportunity.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's awesome for some things, but yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not great.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: In other words.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now that we're going into philosophical territory, which is interesting, these are the type of conversations I love.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, I just think like so many individuals and people maybe even like nations.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like we're, we should question the scoreboards that people are using.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So on a national level, when you think of like, well, though, you think of where's rich or you think of where's good, like, it's purely economic in so many cases, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just GDP, GDP per capita, that at a and, you know, by the way, GDP can be [SPEAKER_00]: people don't think of like, yeah, the things that are just more fundamental to humanity.

[SPEAKER_00]: And those things haven't changed.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what's so fascinating for the millennia that humans beings have existed.

[SPEAKER_00]: It strikes me that things that have always been important to people, that in terms of like true long-term happiness, life satisfaction, meaning purpose, [SPEAKER_00]: family community, sense of meaningful work and physical health, let's say, like those, you could add additional pillars, but take those pillars.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if those things are in place, regardless of income level, [SPEAKER_00]: sure it's easier if you have more money, but on a, like in terms of a life satisfaction and happiness, I don't think it's incredibly important.

[SPEAKER_00]: Certainly not past like you don't need a basic level.

[SPEAKER_01]: You look at people in like India and they're and they're like they have over the less and on average they're happier than than Americans, like you look at people in like Africa as well, like they're happier than Americans with falless far less because those things are in place because they still have the communities intact.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like those things have just been lost, not entirely, because like I said, human beings, we haven't fundamentally changed.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we're not any, you know, biologically different from our grandparents, a great-grandparents, a great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're just living in a different world with different technology and everything's easier things that weren't possible before or now possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very grateful for a lot of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like what we are doing right now in the fact that we'll be able to be in this conversation out to thousands of people all over the globe and they can just listen to it whenever they want.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's incredible.

[SPEAKER_00]: But still after this, it's important for me to go outside and go for a walk and do some exercise, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Not just the in the artificial light and not moving my body and you just have to be very conscious now.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's part of the problem because something I noticed particularly, I travel all over the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something I noticed more in the USA than any other country is you have to be to stay healthy.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be very conscious and conscientious.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you come to the US, you'll hear people from all over like they'll you hear it both ways Americans will go to Europe and they'll be like hey, I just like was living and I lost 10 pounds right I was just walking around yeah I didn't I didn't try to and I lost 10 pounds but then the other way you're a piano you know a German or a Brit will come to the US and they'll be like man I was there for two weeks and I gained 10 pounds yeah right and so you just have to be very [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be very conscious.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to think like every meal you make or order.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you go to the supermarket, you have to be more careful than you have to be in Australia or in the UK or in Germany.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you go out to a restaurant, you have to be more capital portions are going to be way bigger.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be way more oils, way more salt, way more sugar and everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just have to be more conscious.

[SPEAKER_00]: In many cities, if I'm in the UK or pretty much anywhere in Europe, I'll hit five miles plus walking a day, [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm in Houston Dallas Las Vegas where like I have to consciously be like, you know, I have to be on the Fitbit like okay I've only done like 1,700 steps today.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need to just go for a walk because you don't have to like and and it can be much more difficult because you know You walk outside is like there's nowhere to even [SPEAKER_00]: There's a word, even a word, there's a footpot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, there's no word to walk to.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I just think, I think that's the thing, you know, people have to just be very conscious.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I get, look, people are busy.

[SPEAKER_00]: People have all these with their priorities.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's scrambling.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to go deep into the whole broken money system, but that's a massive problem that I've talked a lot of my podcast and other things where everyone's just scrambling all the time, because the money's fundamentally broken.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's always losing its purchasing power.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it affects everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's affecting couples forming, it's affecting marriages, it's affecting birth rates, it affects everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, when you have that financial pressure, you, you, that, that delays, that can delay starting a family.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, the other thing with the US is just health insurance, man.

[SPEAKER_01]: You, you just, you just on a treadmill for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it is so hard to say, oh, I'm going to take a break from this job.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to like, live off my savings, [SPEAKER_01]: like, hey, where's that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, 1500 bucks every month, you know, fear, family's health insurance is going to come from like, so you're worried about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're worried about like the dead.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, once you get started here, like, you can't stop.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're just like, lock you in.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do we fix it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, [SPEAKER_01]: This is, you know, I think, I want to, I'm going to stay in my lane about what I control.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have ideas for, I think, you know, political messaging and how we need to be encouraging the youth.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what do you think would be effective there, actually?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious to hear, because I've thought for a long time, like on an individual level.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know how to, I know how to help people with health, nutrition, physical fitness, strength training, getting in shape.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've helped a lot of people on an individual basis with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: how it could be fixed at scale, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm gonna think I'm gonna talk about Charlie Kirk actually here because I think he did something incredible.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, you know, it was for the conservative movement in the US and he was out at colleges and he had different chapters, you know, at all the colleges around the US, he had chapters at high schools.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, [SPEAKER_01]: And, I mean, his message really was one of, you know, faith, community, responsibility.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think you can have grassroots movements.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you need to have passionate individuals reaching out to people and speaking and speaking the truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think you can, I think you can do it on that, on that level, going out and talking to people because it's like, [SPEAKER_01]: Like, where do we want this information to come in?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, ideally, we want it to come in in school.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all those things that you talked about, purpose, health, relationships, people should be learning about the building blocks to a happy life at school.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think getting out to the schools is important.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have, I have mad respect for Bobby Kennedy as well, and like all of the hate that that he's getting, but [SPEAKER_01]: I think having leaders stand up and speak truthfully about the importance of health and whether it's God or work or relationships and taking responsibility.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we need brave people to stand up and share that message and to not call from the intimidation of the media when you say these things like that and they try and [SPEAKER_01]: And they try and say you're a terrible person and you're unempathetic because you're bringing these points up, it really is just to shut you down because the most loving thing is to make someone feel hopeful and that they have a chance to change their life and they don't need to just stay on drugs and so.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I, that's what I would like to see as a political move of the message.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, happening around mental health.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, what do you think?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know you mentioned you thought a lot about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you fix this?

[SPEAKER_00]: I really don't know at scale.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've asked this question to my audience on on X before and your people are like, oh, they're in thick and I'm like, good grief.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Please don't tell me that's like the only scalable solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I genuinely do not.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think what you just said makes a lot of sense, the sort of bottom-up approach.

[SPEAKER_00]: So because the problem is like, even the people in power, the people, the public health officials, like, everyone's out of shape.

[SPEAKER_00]: No one people aren't healthy.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I often say that you can't teach something that you don't know yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I don't have some information, I can't teach it to anybody else.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I look at, you know, the people in the halls of power, not just in this country, but other places, even the, you know, health ministers.

[SPEAKER_00]: So about health ministers often, right, they're in terrible shape.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't exercise.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't eat well.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, well, how are these people going to get the nation healthy has to be, you know, we need the [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe there's I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also like a small government guy so anything that's like, oh, we need this like whole new department or something.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like I don't know if we want that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's such a good.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it needs to be it needs to be the priorities need to be shifted somehow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure with the right thinking and with the right funding, there could be a way to move the message more into the mainstream, I'll tell you what might be needed and this might be one of the things that actually makes it quite complicated, which is that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I always think it's very hard to do many, many things and to keep people's focus on many things at once.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's hard to push and promote and get into the public consciousness a message about [SPEAKER_00]: health, right, taking care of your body, avoiding obesity, metabolic health issues, all everything that's downstream of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to do that while also having a massive conversation about crime and the border and taxes and this and so I think there would need to be an administration, let's say, where like this is like one of two or maybe three, [SPEAKER_00]: massive topics that okay for the next four years for the next eight years for whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: this is the issue that we are prioritizing.

[SPEAKER_00]: But with all these other problems going on that are more urgent, I think even with a lot of effort, it falls in the back, because in the same way that, like in the news, in the news media, right, like the way one story supplants another one.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't have everyone simultaneously caring about the, [SPEAKER_00]: like like ten different things.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had an idea while you were talking to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: An idea that is a very American idea because it's about it's about enterprise and making money for for school.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, and it's come to me from the school existence.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of criticism about like the value of college and even the value of high school.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, if you're entrepreneur, I'm an entrepreneur.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think you quickly [SPEAKER_01]: Life work is about solving other people's problems and if you can find a problem you can fix it and you can fix it You can make a living it no one gives a shit whether you went to college or or anything like that if you just do a great job at it They will come and find you and so [SPEAKER_01]: Um, out of that, um, a school, uh, a school system formed not so long ago in Texas called the Acton Academy, which could be a really cool thing to look up.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is an entrepreneur based school.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so, so kids like in middle school and high school, [SPEAKER_01]: they are already doing internships with different professionals around the place.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are encouraged to find problems out there and to think, not to be like, oh, I have to learn calculus or have to learn history or have to just like write these essays.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what problems can you see out in the world that you want to fix?

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, maybe you're interested in medicine going going going like shadow a doctor, maybe you're [SPEAKER_01]: And it's essentially about fixing problems and they have, um, you can, they have, like, fares where the kids will, um, they'll, they'll build a product or they'll sell a service and they have to market it and then they'll advertise it to the parents and the communities and they'll get real feedback as they're growing up on, like, how they're doing and marketing and, you know, whether their product is actually good or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like you could you could in the US you could have schools like the act in the academy where they're like you know here we are about like faith we're about entrepreneurship and we're about health like a lot of Americans a sick of the public school system like the the right of people choosing alternative schools and homeschools right now is huge and so if someone would have created this kind of schooling where it's like hey this is what we believe [SPEAKER_01]: If that's popular and if that makes money, that's going to expand and so I think you could also do it from an enterprise perspective and build out just a new way of schooling and educating kids that's in line with this philosophy that's really going to resonate with people and then if you start to get great results, it will, it will expand.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a great idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything we have not talked about that's on your mind?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, we, we have covered a lot of it alive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought so.

[SPEAKER_00]: Dr.

Yes, if, man, dude, I, I appreciate and respect what you're doing so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, continue to do your great work with helping to get people off these psychiatric medications, continue to speak out and just spread the word and spread the truth about what is, [SPEAKER_00]: going on in the USA and beyond in all of these issues and I hope other people will be inspired.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hope other people in your field will start to ask some of these questions and have the boldness to recognize.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, not just notice that something is wrong, but be willing to go to the public and you know, talk about it and raise up these issues man.

[SPEAKER_00]: But you got my respect man.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for the good gift of your time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no worries.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so happy we're able to make this happen.